Foreign On human fraternity revisiting Sisterhood Brotherhood as a new model for interpaid relations uh Dr Mustafa Irene is a co-founder and the director of Institute of debiary a center for inter-religious studies he’s also the academic coordinator at The International Institute jackass maritime uh a center for studies on human rights
Democracy and Civil Society he was born and raised in Istanbul where he got his first degree in sociology and political science at Bogan sikhi University’s Istanbul since 2004 he has been living in Rome he studied at the quantifical Gregorian University Vatican in the fields of Christian theology Interfaith studies Jewish Christian relations Asian
Religions and law and religion at the PHD program of lumsa University in Rome furthermore he completed a master’s degree in the third sector management specializing in diversity inclusion and the pontifical University of Saint Thomas Vatican welcome you Dr Mustafa and we request you to start the session thank you
Thank you very much again for your uh very generous introduction and this very warmly welcoming me in your online session and very warm greetings to all of you from bro and today I would like to share with you a very um brief introduction to the idea of uh
Just you know I just shared with you if it’s really possible that we uh can you know introduce the idea concept of human fraternity and especially more concretely as Sisterhood and Brotherhood as a topic a team in our Interfaith relations as you can imagine I have already showed
You uh some uh reading and that is much more related to the documents uh sometimes it’s called the Abu Dhabi document maybe some of you heard about this document beforehand if not maybe we will cover very briefly today and maybe you had a chance of maybe to hear it
From me and this is a document that I’m so much uh engaged with in my work and Interfaith dialogue interfait relations and so today our uh more or less I will say a program would be and very briefly I will introduce you this document and this importance and then just I will
Discuss with you from different religious uh backgrounds shall be really uh you know tackle with this idea of Sisterhood and Brotherhood in our Interfaith relations of course with some references uh which are not particularly religiously concerned first of all now this idea of fraternity Sisterhood and Brotherhood I’m just
Saying this all the time twice in some uh religious texts it’s already you know uh in quranic text on also in in the Bible in other holy texts I’m not very much familiar with upanishad maybe you can just help me with that and I’m sure always there is this distinction you
Know between uh the genders you know Sisterhood Brotherhood in several occasions I would like to also underline this because in our uh conversation today I will make some uh you know references how with the importance also make this distinction to enrich our discussion not just you know we will try
To be politically correct and then just you know be respectful uh this is also part of you know our activities dialogue activities but I would like to uh more focus on the importance of this enriching distinction human fraternity as a concept has been introduced in February
2019 at a very high level at Global level uh by two uh religious leaders one is Pope Francis the bishop of Rome the head of the Catholic Church the other is Ahmed al-tayib the head of the al-assar university in Egypt maybe you know this is the most prestigious
University in the Sunni Muslim world even though I put something in ecumenical here the university originally founded by Shia’s colors in Egypt during the Fatimid period but it’s been evolved into a more Sunni uh you know institution but you know it’s not you know the big deal because this is an
Institution which produces Islamic knowledge for everyone else even there are non-muslim Scholars who are going there and attend courses to be more engaged in with the Muslim world and these two uh religious leaders shared with us not a beginning actually it is a beginning that’s why we will discuss
Today whether we can use this concept you know based on this document as an important uh concept for Interfaith relations but actually they shared with us a result also it’s a fruit of a long journey of interfaith relations why I’m just saying this because it’s not just not happening that one day and
Pope Francis and the Imam and the head of the SR University Ahmed that type came together and yeah let’s write this document and co-sign this document and then share it with the humanity no it’s not happen like that it is a long journey uh we can just also Trace back why for
Instance they opted for these dates 2019 February 2019 and because that year it was an important year for an important anniversary that was the 800 uh anniversary of a meeting happened between two important historical figures that time that was San Francis of Assisi if you’re familiar with the Catholic
Calendar Elizabeth because this is my area of study you know every day every day I’m just dealing with that but today uh the calendar says 6th of October two days ago 4th of October Catholic Church celebrated the feast of Saint Francis around the world because that was the day of of his
Death of the saint and the very important state of the Catholic Church even though if you’re not familiar with that at least you know a very famous city in the United States San Francisco which takes its name from this saint even the neighboring City Los Angeles again it’s The Franciscan term because
It’s an important concept for them the Angels so this both cities have relations with this person that I’m now telling you about because why uh Pope Francis and Iman remember these two persons and their meeting happened in damieta a city in Egypt because that was
800 years ago 1219 that was not a nice period of time now we are also not direct but just are indirect we had a very uh influence on that we are living a moment of war and conflict and that time there is a huge conflict between
Two parts of the world uh that was uh we called today the Crusades and Crusades were happening that time um some Christian States nations of that time decided to March towards that we call today holy lands Israel Palestine and during this period and there was a sultan called a
Malik Malik King in Arabic al-kamil who is also who was the nephew of salad and who was situated in damieta in Egypt and he had a guest very strange guests he was a monk and that’s important for us for a topic today you know the monks among Dasa they call themselves a Friars
Friar is a term for brothers coming from Latin so a brother uh Brother Francis Friar Francis I would like to pay a visit to him during this period of conflict because from his part there was an Army over there combating you know against the Muslim part
And then he would like to visit this sultan and he would like to find a broader way for reconciliation not just with sword not with arms and conflicts hating each other he would like to give a message you want to try it was a very humble he was not Sam
Francis We Now call him Sam Francis San Francisco he was such a simple guy you know just someone wanted to dedicate his life to God very simple he had a very rich family Merchant family he rejected all his Goods he was supposed to inherit a good shop
In the city center of Assisi he didn’t want to get the stuff but just he joined this Army but without his weapons and he would like to visit the South I have visited Salford and the part of the this is his uh actually the brave act as a man of faith
But as Sultan was very open to these visits he didn’t hesitate to welcome this Friar this brother and he saw in him a brother you know is a part of now I’m just trying to conceptualize this meeting but you know uh they were brothers but maybe they were
Not aware of it you know just here I would like to introduce for instance uh one of the you know maybe I can just say I’m not very sure whether uh Al qaamil was aware of the important thing of Ali bin Abu Talib the cousin and the southern law of prophet Muhammad
And he says people are two types they are either your brothers in faith or your equals in humanity and this idea of uh Brotherhood not just you know being in the same Faith Community by being in the the Human family is not particularly Islam to Christianity the Hinduism to Buddhism
Different religions of course Embrace this idea but of course sometimes we are not so much open to go back to our relevant uh scriptures and traditions to you know highlight this idea of being part of a human family here I think something really you know work well and that meeting happened and
2019 Pope Francis wanted to celebrate this anniversary 800th anniversary of this important meeting uh visiting to Muslim countries but you know if you had the chance to read the document documents inspired by a long history long journey of Muslim Christian dialogue but it aims its intention is to embrace the
Whole Humanity it’s not just you know aiming to stay with the dichotomy of Muslim Christian dialogue relations or whatsoever what you want just you want to call this is the 800 bucks beyond that more particularly the last century for from the both parts from the Catholic church and the Assad University
There have been lots of meetings happens between academics spiritual people religious people lay people they just change so many ideas during the academic meetings informal meetings through friendships here I would like to you know remember a person which has been very important not only for this dialogue for these documents
But also in general uh for the whole idea of interfaith data from the 20th century because he was a scholar of Islam but he was so much open to dialogue with different religious Traditions when he was teaching in Paris Islamic Studies that person is Louis
Who is a French scholar and this year we particularly remember him why do we remember Lima senon because today is remembered for two things first uh this year is here 60th anniversary just departing from this world he died in 1962 so six years ago another thing is very interesting you
Know because in 1922 one century ago he defended his PhD thesis okay so many people defended the Europeans should be really celebrate every every PhD thesis when they arrived to uh 100th anniversary of course not because that was a very particular PhD thesis he the fact that history is the Muslim Mystic
Who actually lived more than a thousand years ago here we don’t have time to deal with but there is a huge interest from a Catholic scholar who would like to study a Sufi and the Islamic tradition which has so many connotations for Muslim Christian dark at that time and in order to
Understand better halaj and Sufism with his colleagues at College de France at sorbonne University he has so much engaged with other religions of course in order to understand superism he did so much work on Hinduism and Buddhism in order to understand how does it you know the ascetic life
Of this Asiatic religions especially this religious coming from India had their impact the huge impact on the mystical life of Muslim religious orders and so he just offered us an idea of how shall we understand you know the transcendental human spirituality so that we could really develop an idea
Of Sisterhood and Brotherhood when we engage with people of different religious backgrounds has been so much it has was so much inspired by another uh important person and he was actually canonized this year canonization I make a small parenthesis for you it is a Catholic charm uh you can just you know
Understand but I just sent huge when Catholic Church would like to elevate someone to the level of sainthood Holiness there is a whole process and there is a sort of a Ministry a global minister to oversee uh you know the whole life of this person and this whole
Procedures and this year last May Catholic Church elevated to the level of sainthood a friend of Louis Madison young another french guy whose name was Charles de Foucault uh lived for many years with Muslims in the Algerian desert and he over there experience and mysticism Christian mysticism which is inspired by
The religious life of Muslim nomads tuarik and what he left to us today not just some writings uh interesting life a Mystic Life coming from a very secular background he was at Taste and then just he was reconverted to his fate he became a very uh spiritual Catholic
But he left us not only what I’m just saying to you but he left us so many people around around the world because still his spirituality is represented by two groups of people little sisters of Jesus had little brothers of Jesus and these people have the spirituality to live
Brotherhood and Sisterhood according to their faith especially living with people who have difficulties who have been marginalized and especially for this order since they are founder Shadow Foucault wanted to live just live to give business of their faith it’s not preaching projectism Mission just living with them since he opted to live with
Muslims and the followers of him the little sisters and little brothers always wanted to live in a Muslim context but also in other conflicts too not necessarily but I’m just giving you an example because very recently I paid a visit to their Central hero Rome and I met this little sister and now
Uh originating from Slovakia remember there was a country called Czechoslovakian and split it she’s part of the bratislam not the Prague and she was explaining to a group of people her location her life story and all of us she said okay I was praying she said I was praying to live
In a Muslim country because that was the what shadowfuga did I would like to understand what he really felt how he became more Catholic more spiritual in her in his faith living with uh another spirituality another religion and then uh her praise were responded because one of her spirits said okay we
Would like to send someone to Turkey so he was she was sent to Turkey many years ago and that’s why this car in this conversation she explained to this group of people her experiences as a Catholic uh non-catholic little sister uh with uh Muslim people in Turkey
Okay now I’m coming back to this again the the how this or the idea of document because this I uh shared his names very quickly I call them the hidden architects of this document because 1962 Pope Francis and also Imam al-qaib they were very young they had no idea maybe
Of this people but they prepared you know because especially Massillon and so many other people from the Catholic Church they had this friendship with professors and imams from University and they paved actually the idea of how can they just you know work together to offer something attention is very
Important not something for reinforced Muslim Christian dialogue this dialogue between them would like to you know propose something for the whole humanity and if you had the chance to read the document the document would like to embrace everyone around the world it’s not just a proposal to enforce Muslim Christian dialogue Muslim
Christianity it’s an area I don’t deny that you know there’s so many issues that Muslims Christians you know as a because if you look at the types of intelligence dialogue we have different types of in one of times if we just you know also focus on experience of this bilateral dialogues
There are issues that Jews and Christians were discussing among each other that’s called Jewish Christian dialogue there’s a Muslim Hindu dialogue there’s a Buddhist Christian dialogue they are all valid and very interesting because this is the specific areas in which you can also raise not only many questions
Which are pertinent for both religions but also you can also develop a different view of dialogue within this deeply profoundly discussed uh by late bilaterally between two religious but in this case this document would like to embrace the humanity another person I would like to add here uh uh Pope Paul VI
Paul VI why he is important uh he’s the pop between 1963 1978. he is the pope who signed many documents of the second batting Council one of them is nostriltate and which makes references to Judaism Islam Buddhism Hinduism as what religions with which Catholic church should engage in a conversation in dialogue
In 1964 Paul sixth the Pope Paul six in the second year of his papacy he published an important encyclical we call it a signature like a uh you say a booklet in which the popes explained their view about how it would like today their wish will uh to engage
With what and with with the church meaning his church or his community he used the term human fraternity that’s important why he uses charm because he had a very deep friendship maybe you remember at the introduction um pragya made a we mentioned to an institution I’m working with I’m the vice Secretary
General that Jacques Maritime Institute because Paul 6 had a very deep friendship Brotherhood with Jack Malita or today maybe you will be I mean you can just make this question why we are so much you know looking at French intellectual right but you know we should really recognize the richness of
The French intellectual discussion of 20th century which really contributes too much what we are talking about today Jacques Marita French philosopher of the 20th century and Jose lived in rural in a very important period just after the war second world war between 1945 1948 as a French ambassador to the
Vatican he had a very good relationship Brotherhood with the Pope Paul 6 much before he became Paul so why I’m telling you this this very ideal seeing the humanity as part of you know the as yourself as your existence and seeing this relationship between Brotherhood and Sisterhood the philosophical argumentation of that so
Much developed by Jacques Melita and he described the human persons around him because he was reconsidering him as a philosopher of personalism and he considered every human person as I will care just make it a very colloquial language as a travel body this is a journey the human Journey that
What we are actually doing is our life is a journey we know more or less we started even though we were not aware of where we started someone had to tell us that we came to this world and we are part of this journey but then we don’t
Know actually won the journey ends but then focusing on the journey at the very existing Journey we have so many bodies around you know we have this companionship this is the language that he is using also in French uh I’m just translating the the more accurate uh you know version of this
From French the companionship it’s not the companionship that the uh the political ideologies uh that’s we find around us and that these people are brothers and sisters that we are in dialogue they actually teach us what they are teaching us are very existence as a human person
And around us we have this constantly changing and developing mirrors whenever we feel ourselves maybe a little bit lost or the basic philosophy questions who are we and where we are coming from where are we going and then just we are looking at these people around us our sisters and brothers and
They actually help us with their humanness with their Humanity with their being as human person as we are they are actually telling us some answers or the ways in which that we can answer these questions or at least we become aware that day are posing the same questions at the
Very moment that we are dealing with these questions so Jacques Maritime is an important person to understand here I’m just trying to now a little bit more going on to the religious terms meaning that one the hemoprotein documents emerged there had been so many positive you know answers to that around
The world even at the very International level maybe you know 4th of February now is celebrated as international human fraternity Day by the United Nation so this is as the United Nations just accepted that inspired by the document that he already covered with its Genesis not the whole details because I left it
To you as a really but the thing is uh importantly since we are dealing with the concept of sister Brotherhood as a cause of interfaith that look they should really understand the responses of different hates group okay the thing is if you look at the second scriptures especially uh second scriptures of
These two religious leaders I mean a Bible and Quran you can see if you take the term brother and sister as a merely biological term you could have serious problems because uh Bible and Quran don’t give you always the best examples of Brotherhood and Sisterhood starting with the children of Adam
Cain and Abel you see the first murder around the world according to this narrative biblical quranic narrative happened between two brothers one brother child his own brother so the first uh human murder started Between Brothers oh my God that’s really frightening you know just that we are
Asking people to see each other as brothers and then if you just make the long list the brothers of Joseph the sons of Jacob and so on a software I can give you many other examples which can maybe you know not really convincing to use the brother and Sisterhood to raise more compassion
Understanding among human beings the important thing is to understand when we talk about this fraternity brother and Sisterhood it’s not something given actually this vision of fraternity brother and Sisterhood involves an idea of an effort an effort to construct actually brother and Sisterhood it’s not just something given automatically
Automatically but we can find you know uh a basic uh at the base for this in the Traditions I don’t know for instance I already quoted Ali pin Abu Talib he was saying you know brothers and Faith but also Brothers equals in humanity so this is a
Religious Vision which in March you to make this effort just it’s not just a given okay you have some people around first of all even if you just drew during Faith you should really discover this part sometimes also in a general way I can just quote a quranic verse for instance
From the chapter 40 9 verse 10 and that says the Believers are about brothers some make peace settlements between your brothers and fear God that you may receive Mercy okay some exegesis of Quran they say okay this is you know our brothers and then the faith refer to Muslims but you
Know here an idea of Brotherhood which is not biological this is the mother that I would like to share with you because when we talk about this visions of Brotherhood which is not true biological bones it requires whether it could be within the religious community or the vision of
Ali it’s a Humanity it is an invitation to make an effort to see the other human person as a brother not something automatic again another thing from uh gospels uh you remember this is you can find in three synoptic gospels uh Gospel According to Mark Luke and
Matthew but I will call only the Mark here uh according to also the historical the the oldest one chapter 3 the verses between uh 35 and 35 sorry 31 and 35 and Jesus is actually um had this dialogue Jesus Christ had this dialogue with people around him and
That crowd was sitting around him and they said to him your mother and your brothers are outside seeking you and he answered to that Jesus answered me why are my mother and my brothers and looking about at those who sat around him he said not the people waiting for him but
People that are showing them here are my brothers and my mother and my brothers for whoever does the will of God he is my brother and sister and mother he replied okay this is you can see okay I’m not just for both examples of quranic and this version you can just also respond
Saying oh just done okay the brothers Christians and wisdoms yeah you can just make this conclusion very rapidly but here I’m just trying to show you an idea of developing either brother and Sisterhood with your intellectual spiritual effort it’s not just you know that you should take
The person uh in front of you just okay I really related you know our religious out for baby I believe it’s okay we’re coming from Adam and eel or whatever you know just biological bones are not no this is not about the biological bronze or you’re just looking
At the person human person okay he has the nose on the same place so we should have more or less you know if you like the animals they have more or less you know similarity so we should be related in a way you know they have nose here
Number Notch here so okay but the thing is it’s not just you know looking for and trying to catch this biological similarities it is the Ville it is the I mean actually the interest to develop this uh fraternal uh uh Burns for between payment needs and
Think about this idea I will give some concrete examples which were formerly you know restricted to some religious Maybe areas of life but now they are more open when I was talking about Saint Francis I said he was a brother you know frying because he was he became also
Founder of fraternity we call them as franciscans for instance in different Jewish communities you know there are people that we call them as Mystics monks brothers sisters they live together and they are living together is usually based on idea of mutual understanding they come different ethnic backgrounds social cultural you know
Different social cultural groups and classes but they come together and they just would like to share something you know they would like to share a life they just you know worship you know uh the the same values etc etc this motherhood this this mother being a sister and brother and uh and the
Relations are based on Sisterhood Brotherhood now you know just in this proposal of chemother Eternity could be applied in Interfaith relations independently from a personal choice to become a non-prior Hmong Sufi Etc why because you know this in our world of today Interfaith relations are so uh you know spontaneous sometimes virtual sometimes
Real life but you know we are so much open to uh engage with Interfaith relations through this idea of how can I relate myself to someone that I don’t know very well but did I know that his or her well the word will is related to mine just because he or
She also would like to they would like to develop an idea of mutual understanding while recognizing the differences focusing on similarities starting with a very simple facts that we are part of a Human family and this Human family is not just again I’m just saying this and
Just to conclude it’s not based on our biological similarities that we are that we have we don’t deny that but also it is beyond that because it’s why it should be beyond that because here we actually put a real effort to our reason to our heart through our knowledge
To experience study Etc yet we would like to really see the other person the other human person as our brother and sister it is not something that we have given automatically there are so many obstacles to embrace this idea but we are called actually to make this
Effort and so that we can relate ourselves to people of different faiths through this idea of brother and sister I’m uh down here as my Exposition so I would love to be engaged with a real you know interactive engagement and dialogue with you thank you thank you Dr Mustafa
Um anyone who wants to ask for anything any questions or have a comment please raise your hands and feel free to participate and have a good discussion did I say the uh that James raised his hand or it was a mistake James okay what is Mystic art I don’t know okay now
Conclusive yes also go ahead thank you so much for spending your time with us we really like the session uh I really like that one quote that you said that uh I think it was you said by um the caliph Ali that either your brother uh person is either your brother
In slate or you’re equal in humanity that was taken to court and um I just wanted you to clarify that bit about the Louis Mason because I kind of missed that like the significance of his contribution to the idea of fraternity mm-hmm sure so do I respond immediately or are we
Supposed to collect many questions this is I’m asking a logistical question that I don’t want to uh you can you can answer one by one okay is there too many questions in the end we will uh thank you very much for your question and for your participation
Kind of skipped that because I have to put them um three of them even Paul VI but maybe um together and especially especially if you can read French last year uh they published the correspondence the letters exchange so many letters between Massillon and Mariton because maritan as a philosopher
Uh he would like to learn more about religions especially about Islam and Hinduism and he was ex asking so many questions to this expert of religious um through his experience in the Muslim world because he had a very interesting life beforehand he was a soldier Fred Soldier then he became more Catholic at
That time he was agnostic machine as study the Muslim Sufi orders engaging with them he discovered that idea of being brother among themselves and then when he turned back to his faith he understood that is also very important Central in his faith and for uh his his case or Fort Malita
Both of them followed the footsteps of Shadow hookup Shadow fukua leaving this Heritage as I like being because the term that he used I skipped that where I don’t want to just go to too much into this thank you very much again for this question because it really helps me to
Some stuff that I’m not seeing you know on my notebook called himself as universal brother he would like to be brother of everyone else around him starting with the toilet Muslim in Nigeria and this idea of working on himself making himself as a the brother transforming himself while
Sting as a deeply rooted Christian but transforming himself as a universal brother of everyone else around the world picked up by machine and Maritime even in their lives for instance Maritime after the death of his wife Raisa he personally became a little brother of Jesus he became a monk after the the his
Wife passed away he didn’t want to remarry or just you know to stay as a layperson he made this for the case of mascino there’s something very important because uh would like to uh actually uh transformed his Brotherhood into more concrete level he started a important prayer prayer moments between Muslims Christians to
Create this Brotherhood they called badalia that’s started in Cairo in 1930s and finished in 1962 which is that and in his years he would like to put together Christian muslims praying together creating this Brotherhood Sisterhood about themselves especially for very uh delicate moments even very delicate political moments because he was uh
Asking Christians to pray and work for the Muslim minorities in the Christian work and asking Muslims to pray and help for the Christian minorities and the Muslim I mean Muslim minorities in Christian word Muslim they’re the wise person and just a good news about that after his dad the badalia kind they just
Diminished and forgot him but recently I discovered a group and this group uh started 20 years ago but I had no idea uh Dorothy Buck uh she’s uh PhD she did her thesis in Boston she started a badalia new badalia group in Boston and for the last
20 years they joined together now Muslim Christians it’s open to everyone else they do this special prayer to enforce dear brother and Sisterhood and actually I started participating this group online of course I could not just get there for a monthly meeting and I was really amazed and this is again
Thanks to uh masinon last but not least masin Young uh as a scholar of halach the the Sufi uh Tinker you know maybe remember him because he had this uh you know the phrase which created so much uh disruption that time he said Allah and they say whether he said I’m the truth
Why I’ve got you know just all in moment of ecstasy that you know how large studying her large and actually focused on war and idea of being a Brothers not all the of the humanity but the whole universe in nature and that’s just you know another idea that we can learn from
The work of uh Louis Massimo very interesting thank you are you looking up more of this thank you anyone else wants to go and it doesn’t have to be a question it can be a comment I guess uh so it has been seen that there have been
Many such efforts in the past they speak the message of Brotherhood and the peace but it was not not received as it should have been uh but the current effort in the name of fraternity like especially we can see uh the West is welcome this like much uh so
I want to know what is the reason behind it like even the Muslims clerics and Muslim uh Kings uh in in the past they try to attempt in this kind of effort but uh now like Western media and the thinkers and philosophers like they will come uh like
Bye-heartedly but in past we haven’t seen like that certain so what is the reason behind thank you Muhammad for your question uh yeah this just be a little bit look at the uh geoposit context of 20th century very rapidly uh as the nostrata documents this is a document it’s a document of
The Catholic church but this is very important for all religions because this is the only religion I would say made an official declaration about the inter-religious style in religious talk in 20th century other religions are open to dialogue but they didn’t you know really publish a document which could be uh you know
Enlightening for all their faithful turning back nostrils number three one it’s talk it talks about the relations between Christians and Muslims it doesn’t deny this past it tastes even though it says even though the second paragraph on number three you can find it easily online and the website of the
Vatican it says even though there had been so many conflicts and uh I’m trying to translate the better way let’s put it conflict conflicts and quarrels etc etc and it says this Council invites both parts in this case most Christian to forget the past it’s a difficult task because the recent the
Recent past I would say the last because for the humanity we said reason would be some centuries some to to centuries it had not been the best uh version of uh the peaceful coexistence we don’t we know that very well uh the change I will
Say the change is a result of the tragic events of the last two world wars I would say because all those efforts of dialogue actually started uh this and seeing this idea of brother sister much more uh it existed even also like like a parent this is a constitutional level
Just remember at the end of the 18th century uh in the US and in France when you know the republics uh were born actually one of the ideas was fraternity Brotherhood you know just have to put together the scissors as brothers and I didn’t really go I didn’t because we picked up the
Concept of Brotherhood for eternity we can I mean just uh find so many definitions and political concept sociological content Etc I just try to focus on the the religious aspect but the idea of brother even the by the Socialist person the socialism always offered an idea that you know workers
And people uh the the you know the in the the labor area who earned their uh you know uh daily income uh working uh daily and just uh prob using the material touching the materials and they are in a way of brothers and sisters we have different uh ideas of uh brother’s brother
Sisterhood but for our case this two tragic moments of uh the spread of world wars and pushed especially uh the thinkers and visioners the leaders of the the Western World to find I will say that was the Emmanuel kant’s dream in a way a Perpetual peace
For as a European Union we usually look at the economic part and usually they teach or that was the economic uh interests nuts it’s not really true the whole idea of European Union if you look at this the founding fathers of European Union they were all really very religious engaged spiritual people and
They would like to really develop an idea of uh brotherhoods at least in Europe and let me give an example of how this human tragedy transformed into something uh more tangible just to ReDiscover the Brotherhood to create a Reconciliation the nostrata documents of the Catholic church or so many other uh Interfaith
Engagements in the post-war uh Western World in Europe are so much related with the tragedy of schwa the Holocaust that’s the the totalitative regime of the 20th century wanted to eliminate the whole uh Jewish people here in Europe the idea’s idea actually one you know the world war finish and then the partners
Of this I mean Interfaith engagement and they also started making uh interrogation special Catholic Church they did they had been really critical and resistance against this human tragedy and that idea of nostratitis just started with a reconciliation with the Jewish people but why I’m just telling this example because one first
Award Pope John 20 Church at the pop between 1958 and 1963 just five years it was kind of the oldest pop but he started the second wrestling Council and he had the vision of writing documents about interface engagement when he received after all this human tragedy and people who claim to be Christians
Killing Exterminating the Jewish people Etc but he received the first group of Jewish people here in Rome in Vatican he addressed them with a Biblical verse and which is also which is which can be found in Quran in a similar way he used the language of Joseph the son of Jacob when he
Met’s first time his brothers in Egypt because his brothers could not recognize him he was so much change become Minister Etc and he said I’m Joseph your brother Pope John 23rd received these people with this verse he said I’m Joseph your brother I mean he attempted to reconcile with Jewish people through
Ideal Brotherhood and I the brighter Brotherhood which is based on reconciliation so I think the why it’s become so relevant this is my first interpretation because the the the geopolitical context of 20th century urged leaders to find ways in which we don’t really I mean because you know the calculations of
Economy calculate political calculations uh the Balance power balance of power Etc they really failed and they wanted to understand how can actually relate people to peaceful coexistence and Reconciliation and I think that was one of the ideas not everyone else as you have already observed still not everyone else
Is embracing desired yeah but it’s becoming more and more relevant at the moment um you can go next but I think osama’s uh microphone is alphagus first of all thank you sir for this I just I have two questions basically uh how is your experience working with the
Jewish people are they really uh open to dialogue are they really interested in it in fraternity Brotherhood and if they are as the my previous question uh the other earlier question was that the world is open to dialogue or accepting the U.S is accepting to come and have a
Discussion debate but I but I can I can feel the Jewish people are uh are they really interested in any kind of dialogue or they really trying to uh diminish uh or are they are they believe they are superior or are they really interested in dialogue my question is
That Anna how is your experience working with them uh thank you Osama for your question uh Jewish people uh from the very beginning have been always very active in that today because dialogue because it’s a new language of 20th century and we can just call it like meeting among different religious people meeting
Uh or we can call this also a conversation whatsoever we can just and why I’m just telling you because Jewish people since uh 70 A.D and this is second destruction of their Temple in Jerusalem by Roman Empire they have been living in diaspora situation so everywhere around the world is minority
Between like the 17th and 1948 1948 the foundation of Israel saw the first time in the history again after 2 000 years Jewish people started uh living in a way that taken with social field themselves a majority in a country since they have been always in uh still there as a
Religious minority they are kind of so much you know engaged in conversation with other religions but especially in the 20th century after the schwa even though that has been a tragic for them they also tried to find a way to dialogue but let me explain in my experience in my observation
I’m very uh fortunate to know and be in dialogue with the oldest Jewish community in Europe the Roman Covenants it’s started 2000 and 200 years ago before Christians came here Jewish people came here so they are here they have a neighborhood some neighborhoods in Rome but let me explain it’s a sociological
Uh requirement for us you know and also for interface studies we should actually avoid all the time the generalization if I say Jews well you open the box so many differences you can find the differences between Ashkenazi the Europe north and European and the Safara yeah Jewish people meaning that suffered at Southern
European and Northern Africa and they have different approaches with their language Yiddish or ladino or in every different nation in every different nation state they had a different experience if they are in minority whether the Muslim Society you know Christian Society so on and so forth there’s a Jewish people they are
Taught to secularize or for the religious perspectives their orthodox Ultra orthodox conservatives Progressive reform so for every Community I can just tell you different stories about that but make it very short and my experience because I work with Jewish people for different occasions I’m part of the religions for
Peace Italy so in the board of Governors at the national level I work close with Jewish people Jewish friends and they are coming from different backgrounds as I mentioned too they are very open to interface dialogue they would like even even not only for interface I’m just telling a case very
Interesting case you know there’s a huge uh problem about uh Muslim communities in western China Muslims and in the Interfaith engagement Jewish people have been always the first ones to defend the rights of the Muslim communities persecuted in China I find it very courageous because you know
There are so many countries even Muslim countries who cannot pronounce anything about that because they have so many economic engagements with China they totally avoid talking about this problem but in my experience here the Jewish organizations have been not only engaged with Interfaith dialogue but also for this Interfaith advocacy
Defending the rights of a different religious minor elsewhere in this case because you know at the international level since there is a problem a huge problem in Middle East between Israel and Palestine most of the time uh most of the Jewish people could not find a very easy English interfaithal I can
Understand that it’s a very valid and understandable point of view but we should really understand that Jews and Muslims have been living everywhere else you know around the world Joseph I don’t think so they can they can raise the voice for you girl Muslim but why why
They are not ready can you fix your camera please we can’t see your face so we are ready to open open uh uh sir they are raising the voice for the yoga Muslims but they are not raising the voice for the uh they’re not even trying to let them the Palestinians live
Peacefully they are not open for dialogue they’re just doing what they what they believe they are doing uh they’re just trying to impose they’re trying to conquer their place as a and the world is not saying anything so I have this question about if they are open for dialogue then they should be
Open for the dialogue for the Masjid AXA as well it should not be like that you can raise the voice for the user machine but when it comes to you message that you you can you can do anything you want it should not be like that sir
So actually actually the problem is also recognized by many Jewish people in Europe and the US I know so many Jewish organizations they openly criticize uh the injustices committed by the government of Israel Etc and I’ve been personally to Jerusalem actually and my experience was quite different very
Interesting because my uh view is like that people if you meet people you know Christian Jewish and Muslims who have been living there for many centuries people I mean people doctor lawyer teacher cleaner whatever they are really willing to live together and they don’t have particular problems
I unfortunately both sides are so much manipulated by International public Powers because I visited Christian families Jewish families Muslim families and I met so many Muslim people Muslims who are maybe are you aware of that 20 of the Israeli population are Muslim they are not living in Palestine
They live in Israel they had Israeli passport and they live in Israel they enjoy being a citizen of Israel and it thinks they’re very complicated but the problem is over that as a Muslim I’ve been to message the laksa several times no one just stopped me and I had I
Enjoyed you know all the prayers from very early prayer Fajr after night prayer I really enjoyed myself being over that but of course the tension is over Dash it is a problem but here to check the interface dialogue I should make this necessary distinction that’s the problem our Dash but for
Instance myself I live as a Muslim as an Italian Muslim I live here in Rome and I live not only the Jewish people I live with everyone else my in my neighborhood there are five mosques usually of Asian backgrounds Bangladesh Etc there are three Hindu temples one Baha’i Center
Several Pentecostal churches and so on and so off are Buddhist centers Etc this with these people I live in a city and I’m concerned I’m not forgetting about the problems around the world but first of all in order to give a good example we live and work here but whenever references Ramadan arrives
We have an absolutely not uh avoidable appointment with Jewish people we break start together and they come uh you know the places be prepared food for them we invite their catering services and we would like to really show something even to France our friends and our brothers and sisters over that in
Israel-palestine we could really do together you know it’s just just you know we are not in a hostage situation of this tragic political conflict but we would at least in our minimum because we don’t have the power we are not the state it is we say as Muslims Jews and
Christians put this in Hindus also we did also several uh Hindu Muslim iftar dinners here we say we can eat together we can work together we can make some charity together and maybe you can also try this and you can give a chance to peace this is what we do our Interfaith
Engagement but of course we do constantly prayers together here involving all these religions to resolve the problem but in my opinion the problem of the the Middle Eastern problem is a problem which can only be resolved if the international powers are totally you know uh engaging with that
First of all also the Muslim country if the Muslim majority of the countries also they really uh you know engage with because don’t forget about it if you look at the Map There’s Israel there’s a Palestine and the whole region is dominated by Muslim countries so the main
Responsibility in my opinion is not Israel’s or other countries these people around the Muslim because the region could be a peaceful region uh sorry I said yes yes yes okay so okay because I I say just in our in our uh cities communities if if you can’t just
Give a good example this is article responsibility you can make maybe a one drop into the you know a pool of Peace questions which are so complicated and I I assure you I know so many Jewish organizations in Europe in the U.S they are totally critical of the injustices uh committed in Palestine
Okay thanks thank you um Imran you can go next episode so I see that you have a field you have theology as your background so my question is very precise uh and it’s something which uh like the cushion is like I know something about it but I want to know more about it
So since you have done theology so I wanted to know what does the text what does the word of God like simply the word of God what does the text speak about identity of humanity of human beings not as a Christian not as a
Muslim or not as a Jew what is the text of God say from the Torah to Bible to Quran say on identity per se identity of us as human beings when it comes to Quran I have read that uh the texts say that we that Allah says that I have
Created you all from one single soul or one single seed so is there similar Notions uh no it’s not a notion it’s a word of God so it’s just similar things it’s God has spoken in the Torah or the Bible I want to know that not as a
Muslim not as a Christian not as a view but to humanity even how does the how does God speak to humanity person thank you uh thank you Imran Ahmed for your question it’s uh so I think a very basic uh approach that we should take when we engage with Interfaith dialogue uh here
The biblical uh the quranic uh version okay this is let’s go back a little bit also the the book um that booklet encyclical letter that I mentioned of Paul the sixth hectician swamp because it is a book which actually defines what does it really mean dialogue or he used the term
Dialogue is a term coming from Greek language but he wrote this book in Original Latin in Latin the term is colloquium it is just you know being in conversation with and the idea the whole idea of dialogue starts with the will the desire of God to talk to us
That’s very important because here human beings are created and they got this we call this Revelation because it’s just Divine message and you know don’t just you should focus on dialogue as you know in dialogue we have two partners at least and God communicates and what when God communicates
There is a His Wish to be here heard to be understood to be perceived by someone over there and this is the whole idea of this quranic and biblical uh you know understanding but concerning the what is the essence of human being from God’s perspective here for instance sometimes
Muslims say okay the Christians Jews do have this but actually also Muslims do have but through a Hadith you know there’s a Latin term Imago de because in a Biblical version hmm God presents his creation of human person as a creation of In His Image God created him a person in His image
Sometimes it frightens Muslims you know because children have an image you know that in Christianity then Jesus is over that and there’s a you know face of God and that just you know people say okay now it shouldn’t be an idea of uh Islamic rewarded but interestingly enough there’s a Hadith about that
Because the Hadith says Rahman the merciful and God the merciful created Adam the human person in his own image that doesn’t mean of course because you know this is this is an important even the Christian Jews also don’t uh mean that God created human being in his physical image although they do also
Accept that we cannot really conceive god with our understanding uh our physical understanding but here there’s this connection between God and human being to rule we can just call it but that’s you know how the gods spreads actually shared through his will through his Desire with the human person
And that’s why here when we talk about you know how this um you know the revelations God’s revelations in this context about abrahamic faiths uh Judah is a Christian Islam here the idea uh of human person which has which was created by gods two I could as a mirror to reflect a smile
His most beautiful names sometimes we call them 99 we call 99 somebody said 1000 there are so many several different you know on the sides of that but in this case of course the very idea of Engagement between God and human person is focusing on again I’m just you know concluding with that
That the desire will of Gods to be known and he would like to hear from human person this recognition and that’s why the Sufi tradition you know uh there is this narrative about the creation of the the old human spirits and in which they respond the question raised by God
And God asked am I not your lord and they say yes you are our Lord this is because this is you know and how do the how does a human person pronounce this recognition of the Gods because he could not do that if God would not have created
This capacity of human person and this is much more the question of Kalam is a big question but I just tried to a little bit you know make it short thank you thank you you had put up your hands do you want to go next okay yes it’s not a question question
And but just to some clarification of languages like this document I was reading and still uh I’m wondering like they’re using in the name of God like as we know there are so many religions like I belong to India and we have a Rich culture of this Buddhism those who don’t
Believe in particular God or you know the term God the terminology God so they even they believe some kind of uh energy or source that could be something else but the terminology like I just want some clarification on this and in the first line they said like being equal
Out of his Mercy his in capital so I just uh found these things um you know the questionable and not acceptable as a universal thing we are talking about some gender biasedness or still we are when we try to reinterpretating the things we in the theological things
Still we are not uh you know very far from this gender biasedness and also those were the questions emerging in my mind uh if you can give us quick clarification on them like the language clarification thank you very much for your questions uh I found them very inspiring and I
Assure you the uh this document also immediately criticized by uh Muslim and Christian woman because the name of the human fraternity was The Sisterhood and still I know German Scholars Muslim Christian Scholars they are discussing that and they said they had to ask beforehand yes just the really important
Because now we are living in a world in which if we really claim to be you know as Believers inclusive of course we should be also adding up the languages are important for religions you know the language which makes this connection between the Creator and the Creator the whole sack
Of scriptures you know are made by uh words so I mean they are important they can just you know offend people they totally there’s a very good observation concerning the god in the name of God and his mercy here I will say the idea is this this two people these
Two religious leaders actually wanted to offer a method that could be also applied to other religions you know it could be for instance a document prepared by a Hindu scholar Hindu leader and the Giants leader they could also start by their own religious conviction saying that we have this conviction we
See this word the whole universe like that departing from our spirituality but we are arriving at points with which we we can also embrace the whole Humanity here this both religious leaders underline their beliefs underline that they believe in God which is uh you know defined in the abrahamic
Terms there is all Narrative of patriarch uh which believe in God having observed you know the skies and they try to relate himself to sound and moon Etc they’re just arriving to a more artistic idea of God and then they say okay we are you know rooted in our faith this is a
Faith in one God’s unique God but this idea of believing in one God in this abrahamic God does not prevent us to embrace the religious baby if you remember in the document they uh defined gender let’s say maybe it’s a sexual I don’t remember sexual racial ethnic whatever
Diversity is a will of God they accept we are different because this is wanted by God himself so uh if he would like to have a more Universalist language yes of course maybe that either a document should use a language in which uh it could make references to other uh
Transcendental uh you know uh powers and understandings and urges I I find it very fair but here the method is just a little bit different starting as two Believers in particular faiths but arriving at point this particularity these differences we are we believe differently but our differences
Will not push us to discriminate other faiths and cultures more or less likely thank you uh I think I just wanted to add a little bit one word um the israel-palestine conflict and the Jewish Community is engagement with it and all of that so I mean I have
I have been really trying to keep abreast of everything that’s happening in Palestine and I found something very interesting especially around the time in I think 2021 when the sheikhara protests were happening some of the most vocal supporters of that protest were Jewish rabbis and the Jewish community in America
Quite a few of them were very vocally against what is happening in Palestine I support a single state and they were also very vocally for a single state and I think looking at it in terms of religion you cannot obviously let go of that but you must also keep in mind that
This is also an issue of ethnicity which is often the case in context like these so unfortunately as we have seen around the time of those protests and the wall that they have built this sort of uh slogan that these zionists the Zionist regime was trying to propagate was the
Idea that Arabs should be cleansed not necessarily Muslims or Christians but an ethnicity rather than a religion so looking at it in terms of Simply the idea of you know Jews versus Christians or Jews versus Muslims Muslims versus Christians that’s kind of painting it in a very sort of single breaststroke which
Is really not what is happening so you kind of have to look at it in all terms and uh situations and you must also be very aware of who your allies are so despite a lot of the Jewish Community who are actually very vocally for Palestine which I found after engaging with those
Communities so just adding to that thank you thank you thank you might also just want to say a word here because when I started working for a piece I I noticed that uh the first thing that I realized was that no Community is homogeneous that’s something that uh Dr
Mustafa you also mentioned and every Community there are people who tend to think that the other other community people are homogeneous they’re not like us definitely yeah this is also part of I think the whole idea of that you’re organizing is uh love the course you know just to
Um it just reminding people uh you know to learn more about the differences uh within the religious communities so that they can just you know develop better understanding Mutual understanding about Concepts yeah do we have any more questions foreign do we have any comments from anyone teach me dominate anyone James Reuben
Can I just add a very like small question if that’s okay uh so this is uh wondering uh I mean this about this concept of Universal Brotherhood and I was just wondering uh where is this demand where is this call for Universal Brotherhood coming from is it is it a realization of you
Know how divided we are or is it some you know higher some transcendental stuff I mean I’m not something that is beyond us is it or is it uh I mean yeah I mean really that question you know if it makes sense foreign thank you thank you James for your
Question uh yeah this is of course a big big topic now people are trying to research and then because I am the upcoming months I will be participating other meetings in different uh contexts in different languages one in Austria and German Etc and it’s a part of the research
Project actually part of the research projects uh but very briefly of course the religions uh have already that’s why they could just you know now uh process this again the religions or cultures around the world they have already you know uh important uh baggage about that it’s not just something coming out of
Blue just okay we are now in the 20th century so many awards happened and then from this Century passing to the 21st century we shouldn’t not that simply but the thing is uh unfortunately for some reasons that is we try to You Know cover a little bit political social whatsoever
You know just people are so divided so they they want to maybe raise too much you know highlight uh these aspects of uh religions but I would say here uh did I mentioned briefly as you see also the very secular ideas you know the republicanism and then socialism
Etc they also appeal to this idea just trying to find out that the human beings are really part of a human family okay from uh we have also I I tried a little bit not blame but just enough to relativize the biological Bond of course that’s also important it helps us to
Understand that we are actually related but um this idea of discovering uh the uh the human franchise The Sisterhood Brotherhood of course it’s a little bit related to our the change in our um I would say it’s special for the starting the 19th century but coming today with our sociological uh contexts
Because you know the sociology itself uh you know uh established as a discipline in 19th century it’s it’s not a coincidence because it observed the founding fathers of Sociology very crime Etc they observed this transformation in the society from mechanical societies to organic societies as you know people
Were living together maybe in tribes in families uh traveling were not that much you know common for everyone else and they were seeing people around them and very similar to them as ethnicity as language Etc with 19th century they’re a bit Industrial Revolution Etc that different types of belongingness
And this idea of just to belong to a community which is not part of your ethnic or religious whatever group that all the whole idea of urbanization people living there uh villages the rural areas and they got this shock actually you know how do they how could they identify
Themselves with the new urban areas and then we raised at different levels could be philosophical or social public policy levels we raise the idea of how can we really create new types of uh social equation how can we really relate ourselves in a society in which people have different religions different
Ethnicities different languages different social classes it’s not anymore that everyone else going in the morning were working in the same Fields uh you know then coming back home making the same breath eating the same food more or less break the same you know of divinities now we have all these diverses around
And the question is I got my decision and create conflicts I mean world wars are not totally independent from this it’s that people you just we tend to explain that with economic interests Etc it’s fine and fair but if we only explain these problems the conflicts Wars only with economic aspects it will
Be kind of misleading so how can we actually respond to this um radical uh sociological changes in our lives and I think we are looking for as Humanity at different levels looking for new Burns that we could just you know make ourselves again in a way at
Home maybe not recently one of the main problems in the western world and in some countries they establish Ministries for that is the loneliness that human beings living in City centers they are suffering from loneliness and they say they feel this is lonely they have health problems they cost much
More to the state they tend to commit more suicide Etc so this idea of losing of your idea of belongings to a particular Community actually is a huge I guess social problem I think that’s why that was a former question related to that I just I think again answers uh to to other
Colleagues and I think there’s also a concrete uh necessity to to create these bones in our societies thank you again can you hear us yes I just want to thank you uh all of you and for your camera again for your work because now I can I’m
Realizing slowly that how how uh how uh good a society can be made if peoples like you are working working to eliminate the differences and create a good environment that’s all we we need this uh very badly everywhere is not only in it’s everywhere from India to
Europe to Arab to everywhere we need someone to step up and is trying to create a try to sort out the problem with dialogue and I’m very very thankful to all those people associated with this organization thank you uh does anyone have any comments and questions yes sorry the
Doctor Mustafa go ahead no no I just want to say thank you to Osama for his participation that’s all yeah thank you sir um yes uh uh news I would like to have have a comment or question okay since uh there are no more questions um just a couple of things
We have had uh Dr Mustafa in the past as well and the recordings are there available on our YouTube channel uh at the rate dialogue for peace uh the last year uh he spoke on preventive preventing extremism through inter-religious dialogue a European perspective and um and that’s that’s in the uh archives
Of our video channel as well YouTube channel so please have a look when you get it done and we have an admin announcement we have increased the time for uh required for Reflections and last week most of you gave quite good Reflections thank you for that
Um I hope you would keep it up so I will send you the reflection forms after the session and uh you can submit it uh by Saturday after Saturday 6 o’clock sometimes uh thank you Dr Mustafa I thank you for all of you for your participation and I wish you all the
Best uh for your studies for your professional life and please bear on your mind if you happen to be here in Eternal City in Rome please drop a line I would love to see you and just you know grab a coffee with you thank you
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