Hi I’m current Harper over the last few years I hope you’ve been watching my program the interview on The Wire during that period I’ve interviewed doctors politicians businessmen scientists authors and even the occasional Nobel Laureate for me it’s been exciting I hope it’s been enjoyable
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That was really inadequate as a result we asked today what are the steps that are needed to tackle the Law and Order problem which is an immediate concern and then beyond that the political problem which is far more intractable those are the key issues I should raise
Today with the Director of Human Rights alert let me begin a little differently the money more crisis is now almost three and a half months old let’s start by assessing how different governments have handled it let’s start with the state government in biransing what’s your assessment of the way they’ve handled it
Well Karen initially um this problem could have been nipped in but despite of all the all the misgivings in spite of all the mistakes if the government responded on the 3rd of May to the violence that escalated in children immediately I think many of this escalation that we
Are seeing would have never happened um there was kind of a total lack of response I was told that because perhaps that day the vice president was also there let us assume that for some reason the the the Machinery was engaged in something else but it I still cannot put
My mind across to to to to see why on the fourth of me which is by far the most violent day the states response was almost zero rather this was the most violent day I mean I think the the state Machinery is geared up particularly in a state like Manipur
Which has been facing this kind of Law and Order in 10 I mean some low intensity Conflict for decades together their ER wherewithals of dealing with this problem uh at quite uh you know short notice but the fact that this has not been used and and this this has not
Been geared up till date and also there was a little hopefulness that when Amit Saha did paid a visit that that perhaps something is going to happen and he have given a promise also to the people of Manipur that within 15 days uh he will come out with a solution
We were all pinning our hope that perhaps something is going to happen but unfortunately that again passed off and the most recent one was of the Lord of this um you know um mobilization from the opposition finally uh Manipur has come in the National focus and a debate has been conducted on
Manipur but strangely that has also not brought the respite rather it has created more anger among different sections of the people none of the MPS from Manipur could speak uh even though many I mean they are from the ruling party in the from the NDA Alliance
Mizoram uh mp uh we are told his uh kind of um microphone was switched off and again that had come and gone and the violence continue I don’t know what is going to really um I mean we we are having a very deep need a very deep introspection on the on the
Whole mud sliding of democracy that we are experiencing in this country and its inability to respond to a crisis as Grave as we are seeing in Manipur is extremely unfortunate I’ll come to the debated Parliament a moment’s time but let’s first focus on billionsing and the state government
You’re clearly suggesting that on the first two days when they could have nipped it in the buds they were negligent perhaps they were distracted by the visit of the vice president what happened thereafter did they in some sense become complex that’s a good question if I say that
I’ll be in trouble back home but let us try to understand this a little more objectively uh we are told there there are already additional 60 000 troops that has been flown into Manipur where are they what are they doing what is the peace initiative obviously
We are seeing on the ground that very angry Mayte youth with arms and very angry cookie youth in arm are classing on a daily basis if you speak to the cookie they said behind the angry made the youth are the backing of the police and if you speak
To the mate they’ll sit behind the cookie youth are the Assam rifles and who are they coming getting their power from NB rinsing on the one hand Amit sahaji from the other and I mean I can’t help coming back to the parliament because the Amit sahaji says bidencing is fully cooperating so
This is a a conflict between people who are driving their power from two person two good friends who are in full cooperation I mean if you do this simple mapping of the conflict I can’t make sense of what’s happening in Manipur I’ll come in a moment’s time to both
Amitshine biryan Singh but let me first talk to about the Prime Minister for 79 days he had nothing to say about Manipur whatsoever when he did speak it was after that Dreadful rape video went viral and he spoke for 40 seconds and a lot of it was political what about today
And when the debate happened in Parliament he spoke for two hours 15 minutes of which according to the Calcutta paper the telegraph five and a half or six minutes were devoted to Manipur how did that go down in people in Manipur a prime minister who simply is unable to speak
I think it is shocking I think people were very very disappointed uh by the way um I think the the telegraph reporting was quite apt just blah blah blah blah blah and no substance in terms of uh I mean it’s it’s all good to say we are
Trying to restore peace but how is there a road map people are people are starving to listen to you know the vishwa guru is now talking about Ukraine he’s now talking about a new world order we are going to come into the I mean in yesterday’s independent Day speech we are going to
Be developed country we are going to be the third largest economy very soon but what is your response to uh increasingly you know devastating situation in Manipur and if you are not able to respond to this I mean you might you might look and think of climbing that that
Huge mountain but if you are not able to deal with the thorn that is in your feet now you never reach there and and I think you have to give attention to the thorn that is sticking at your toes now to be able to climb that and simply
Neglecting it and making it Fester you will end up spoiling your own fit but will will never be able to reach those big goals that we are setting ourselves for I’ve spoken to maybe 20 25 people in Manipur Naga practically every one of them have said
That they feel let down by the Prime Minister many have said they think the Prime Minister has done this back on Manipur do you share that feeling absolutely absolutely because I mean you know he had not that he had not responded to crisis in this country he had responded to urisa he has
Responded to Gujarat his responded to almost every other issues that is there is an awful trade accident happened and Manipur was raging at the same time he went to the train accident but he had nothing to say about panipat exactly I mean we we do empathize with what’s
Happening in the rest of the country but as a prime minister and as a as a as a as a father figure for the whole country and also considering that he’s such an articulate well-spoken orator we expect him to explain to to to to to to identify empathize with the pain on both
Sides and come out with a Clear Vision on what what he is going to do for the for that he’s failed to do I think completely let’s against this background come to the homeless to speech it was exactly a week ago with the Lord Sabha
He spoke for two hours do you think he sketched out a credible convincing roadmap to resolve the crisis or did he fail to do so Karan we have been dealing with the problem in Manipur I mean I have been working on the issues in Manipur for the last 30 years or so
And we have an understanding of what is happening there but I find the kind of representation that had come in his thing was grossly either misinformed or misplaced take for example the whole he puts the whole Genesis of the problem to the illegal immigration from from Myanmar
Perhaps it is true I mean yeah I know you have you have some disagreement with some with some of the people that you have interviewed about how much people people have actually kind of influx have come into the Manipur without getting into too much of detail the fact remains that
The nagas where 12 mlas in Manipur the nagas have now shrunk to 10 and the cookies were eight mlas in Manipur now it has come to 10. that itself is an indication that there is a demographic sift and having lived there for all my life I can also see that that’s
Happening but I think they are conflating two very important issues here Myanmar is also in a big crisis I mean the the quality of life is very very poor and I can imagine why people of the same ethnic group living in Myanmar would like to come and live in
Inside Manipur because you at least have an NRA GS you at least have a pts something that you get whereas on the other side you are always being text and kind of uh harassed by the the military all the time so there has been a slow someone ossification or population for
The last many decades that is happening that is one problem the other thing is in the last two years because of this horrendous kind of civil war that Myanmar has faced many people have also fled into Manipur for safety as much as they have done in mizoram
I think these are two very different issues the response to these Democratic crisis India now being the mother of democracy I think we do have some responsibility to respond to this present crisis slightly differently and we have written to the Home Secretary uh because yes we
Have I mean the human rights alert the organization that I represent and the hill Tribal Council which is a civil society group in Moray have written to The Honorable uh the the the Home Secretary to identify that there is absolutely no institution to deal with this human
Crisis that has come about see Refugee is not new in Manipur it started from 1941 from second world war we are huge I mean half a million people have moved in from there 60s when the the again the Myanmar who happened 88 we have received
A lot of uh this uh people and now in 2001 this crisis have is happening but unfortunately till now we don’t have any institution on the ground to deal with this so we have written to the Home Secretary either you open an frro Regional Foreigner registration office
Or now the government of India’s policy if there are refugees from Tibet then if ourro deals with it if there are refugees from um I don’t know Pakistan all the neighboring countries are dealt directly by the Home Ministry at by frro but refugees from Burma is outsourced to unhcr to Dil
And the problem is unhcr cannot go into the Northeast and give their services for these refugees who are who have crossed the border in Manipur and in Myanmar have to first come to Delhi to even make their registration for uh to the U.N I understand your point
Completely no let me for the sake of the audience remind them of what exactly didn’t uh the home minister said in Parliament then we’ll carry on because I think it’s important the audience should remember the home Minister’s precise worth according to the Indian Express this is what he said the origin of the
Current cycle of ethnic violence is an influx of cookie refugees from Myanmar following the regime change in 2021 then he added as there is no border fencing a large number of kooky Brothers came to Manipur as the cookie refugees settled down in the forests of the Manipur
Valley there were fears of a demographic change that last part has infuriated the cookies the cookie empty the indigenous tribal leaders forum and all 10 cookie mlas have said this is a one-sided account it’s not the full truth it’s very much they say a mighty narrative the cookie have a different explanation
In presenting it as the only explanation did the home minister make a mistake did he look as if he was taking sides yeah I thank you Karen for reminding uh to me as well as to the viewers the the context I was already jumping the gun literally because I was it was already
In my mind and I was trying to explain that exactly I one say it is a total lie but I would say it is a half truth there are facts in this but it doesn’t explain the whole phenomena that was what I was saying there could perhaps be slow
Movement of people primarily because of economic reasons for the last four or five decades but the present crisis that is coming out in the last two years is of a very different character these are refugees from the refugees from the Junta there are at least six MPS who
Were elected went to nepito after getting elected hoping that they are going to take over the government there and they found that the military have kind of taken over the whole place they fled and have they have run into India they have run into India on the hope
That they are going to a democratic country and they will have get some protection I have met more than 12 MPS in isol when you say MPS these are zombies Burmese MPS who have who are now in in isil they are given proper registration they maintain but they are
Fleeing from a hunter they are not people who come to take up residence in India no certainly they are temporary they all want to go back I mean as a democratic country I mean this is a fundamental right of every person this is article 14 of the universal
Declaration of Human Rights which says every person has a right to seek aside them in a different concept that India claims it hasn’t signed the refugee Charter even if India have not signed the refugee Charter India is a part of the Consortium on Refugee and whether
You like it or not India have always received Refugee and India still hosts the largest urban Refugee population in the world then explain this to me because I’m quoting what the chief minister of mizoram said yesterday yeah there are estimated to be something like 40 to 45 000 Burmese refugees who sought shelter
In mizoram it hasn’t created a problem there at all no according to the birencing government the figure for the number who’ve come since the hunter take over to Manipur ranges between 2500 and 4000. it’s roughly a tenth of mizoram why is it such a huge cause of concern in Manipur
I mean one is to say what whether it is right or wrong I think it is wrong to be too alarmist about it but just to explain why it is happening mizoram is predominantly 90 miso and they are in the understanding of the chin worldview the Western chin and the chin state in
Chin are the Eastern chin if you look at the and I take it Manipur is not overwhelmingly chin at all exactly and and Manipur has always had this precarious equilibrium of ethnic equilibrium may say on the one side Naga and the cookie on this other side so the
When when large number of population comes in then it disturbs the political space that was what I was telling you that the number of uh MPS the mlas have increased and therefore the specific particularities of manipur’s ethnic Dynamics have to be understood and the competition that I
Understand but let’s come back to the home minister he has only pointed at what he calls cookie Refugee sumanmar as the cause of the problem narrative for the cause of the problem which he ignored yeah completely yeah the cookies are upset that biryan Singh calls them poppy cultivators and illegal
Drug Traders the cookies are upset that they are accused of encroaching on Forest and other preserved lands the cookies are upset that didn’t sing repeatedly calls them foreigners and illegal immigrants none of that was mentioned by the home minister at all so do you think rather than present a
Roadmap for solving the crisis he’s actually exacerbated the problem because he sounded one-sided he sounds as if he’s talking on behalf of the Maite and the cookie are infuriate it has he made things worse absolutely I mean if I were I I have to enter into the cookie
Shoes I can see that uh that that they will feel very laid down by this uh narrative I think it is important uh as the leader of a of a democracy where there are varieties of people to be able to hold the complexity of this problem and understand and empathize both the
Narratives and find a roadmap so he should have given both narratives to Parliament both the mighty narrative and the cookie narrative and pin down where it is coming from if you give me the space I think the if we have to pin down where the problem is coming from he
Mentioned not this uh kind of uh fencing the the Border but let me repeat again here that this border between India and Myanmar is the most neglected border of all the borders around the country I mean there are people say porous border let me reiterate it is not a porous border
But it’s an open border porus assume as if there is already something but there was a free regime wasn’t there that allowed people from both sides to come 16 kilometers into territory exactly the Burmese could stay for 72 hours on the Indian side but the Indians only for 24.
But that was stopped during covet wasn’t it and therefore there is a need for a much more clear-headed management plan of how to deal with this people who are moving constantly unfortunately I understand that but tell me this this one-sided narrative and you said a moment ago that you absolutely agreed that the
Homeownist as a result has made the situation worse but was this one-sided narrative fed to him by beer and saying many people suspect so because it’s what William Singh says I wish I know exactly that what’s happening in the kitchen but we can only see from a distance and
Perhaps decipher what is what is but it’s The Logical conclusion that if the home minister voices what birencing has been saying then it sounds as if he’s been influenced by him and he’s been fed by him possibly I can’t I can’t say I can say
No but but having said that also I think I need to clarify a little one point that uh biryan Singh’s narrative is not necessarily the Maita narrative when the when the first uh this outbreak of um uh kind of refugees came in the citizens committee Manipur wherein we
Have former Chief Minister former Vice Chancellor of Manipur University we all got together I was the convener and we all got together and tried to extend humanitarian responses to that we have also written to the prime minister quoting the principle of vasudeva kutumbakam that we as uh I mean as as a
Brotherhood of mankind we need to respond to that much more sympathetically we have been seeking The Honorable chief minister to kindly grant us an audience so that we can discuss what is the best way to handle it I I take your point of experiencing is not the only my thing
Narrative exactly but brilliant sings Mighty narrative is endorsed by Ram by thank God by promoting promoting on his Facebook on the 28th of April five days before the troubles began on the 3rd of May actually put up let us annihilate the people in the Hills it’s not only that
Lippul have also come to my office and said if you start doing all this campaign for giving legal assistance to the Myanmar refugees we will bid you up they came and threatened you June 2022 they came to walk into my office 20 of them and
Said we will beat you up I said please come let’s discuss what is your concern they said our land will be taken we will be displaced he said isn’t it a smart thing then to confine them to a particular geography give them a registration give them what is due in
Terms of their basic human rights right to life guaranteed in the constitution is to every person and remember they are refugees fleeing in Justice treats them as we treated East pakistanis in 71 when 10 million came to Bangalore exactly and and once the situation improves they can
Go back isn’t it a smarter way to deal with the problem rather than to to pretend as if it doesn’t exist and because they are not fleeing because of they want anything their houses are being bombed they will Anyway come and then they will go underground and it
Will mix up with the population and then you will find exactly the problem that you are worried about is it smart to have an open policy which is transparent and which is in tandem with our own constitutional obligation and Our obligation under the human rights isn’t
This why you said right at the beginning of the interview when I said the bidencing government was negligent in the first two days and then I asked you was it complicit thereafter in wanting this violence to continue and you said if I say this I won’t be able to go home
It’s because of the threats you face from arambai thank God and my teleport that you can’t voice what may be the truth because it will be held against you there will be violence against you if you do it exactly this is a problem I wrote the full police complaint stating
Each and every detail of what had happened to me in this episode the investigation never got completed I mean it is clear that this is the biggest problem the the money for police let’s tell the audience come directly under beer and say he’s the home minister absolutely and quite clearly he
Is protecting my telepon and arambai thank God I believe he is the patron of Aram by tengal and promoting on his Facebook has actually said I hear a worship so today in response he’s protecting the new filed an fir he’s taken no action let me keep it at that and I hope that
This investigations and inquiries and history will record this in a much more fairer way if I start advocating now no I don’t want to I don’t want you to say anything that puts you in Danger let’s come back to the home minister speech the one thing we’ve discussed is that
His analysis of how the problem began is one-sided it’s offended the cookie and as you said it’s absolutely made the situation worse but there was another aspect of what the home minister said he said he cannot remove and replace birencing because he’s been cooperating and the cooperation he cited was he
Agreed to remove the chief secretary he agreed to remove the director General police he accepted a security advisor although whether uh article 355 is applying or not is a completely confused matter right and now people are saying that in fact the unified command is headed by Biden saying and not kuldeep
Singh so that element is confused but there’s another good reason for replacing the rinsing which the home minister ignored the cookie people who are 16 of the population have lost complete and total faith in him seven cookie mlas from the home chief Minister’s own party have lost faith in them more importantly
15 mlas of the BJP out of 32 have lost faith anymore that includes eight clearly his own party and a sizable section of the state have lost faith in him isn’t that a good reason for removing him whether he cooperates or not there’s another reason why I think it’s
Important is because we need to move forward from this uh still met that we are seeing now and all the cookie mlas are saying we are not going to talk so long as biryan Singh Is there and if they are not there’s not going to
Be talk if there’s going to be firing in the in the periphery all the while I don’t know how we are going to overcome this are we going to wait till 2024 election before before new regime change happens if at all it happens in Center
How are we going to move forward I mean can’t I don’t know what is stopping the central leadership Maybe PR might not come very well but yeah I mean if cookie is are not going to talk so long as biryan is in position can’t they have
Another person who is a BJP person uh a fresh person where at least some level of dialogue can happen if you are stubbornly putting biryan Singh as the face of the government and he has become such an object of hatred and uh you know someone who has perpetuated all the hate
Speeches that you are you have mentioned then what is the way forward how are we going to move forward I can’t understand I still can’t but you’re saying something very important you’re saying this stubborn insistence I won’t remove beer and say is it responsible at least if you are wanting to move
Forward for some kind of a Reconciliation process I think that is exactly the opposite of uh I mean if we want to move forward now we have to at least bring the cookies and the methods to some kind of funny let me put it like this if your goal is to resolve the
Crisis to bring the communities together again it’s irresponsible to insist I won’t get it appearancing yeah I think that precondition kind of kills the very idea of reconciliation so this is irresponsibility isn’t it I agree let me go one step further we’ve talked about the home Minister’s speech just
For the sake of the audience I’m repeating he was one-sided he’s made the situation worse it’s irresponsible not to remove the dancing suppose tomorrow the home minister were to ring and he was to say give me your advice what should I do to sort this out you’ve
Worked in Manipur for 30 years you understand the situation whatever the advice the home minister has he doesn’t understand it personally he’s not manipuriwa so if he Rings up and says give me your advice what would you say and let’s start first with the law and order problem we’ll come to
Handling the political president what should he do so that this Law and Order problem ends I think the first primary requirement is to stop the firing that is going on uh in the peripheries without the gun being silenced I think it will be very very how do you stop it forward
I don’t know what is this 60 000 troops doing I heard Rahul Gandhi I don’t know the working of the Indian state so well but I think Rahul Gandhi probably knows it they have been he said if you send in the army they learned it in two days yeah he said
It requires just two days to deal with it so I think first of all it is to to to drowse the violence and then try to understand the narratives again what is making the methe people’s youth so angry let’s come to another promotion let’s stick to law order I’ll come to the
Narrative in a big win a moment yeah the might they want the Assam rifles withdrawn they formerly petitioned the Prime Minister clearly whether their accusation is right or wrong is another matter they don’t have trust in that Force should that Force then be removed see Assam rifle has a long Legacy in
Manipur and having document documenting cases of human rights violations uh there are also problems I mean there are some very practical problems that I saw when I was in uh kind of uh in the organizing people in different kinds of Peace meetings that we have I was in uh one of the villages
In the in the valley and they were not getting water for a long time which which are the rivulets that kind of water the field so about um we call a hundred Pari or Ecker of uh rice is not being uh it cannot be cultivated properly so along with the
Mlas they’ve tried to go to this cookie Village to negotiate this here is the Assam rifle who have blocked them from going so the mlas could never reach a some rifle and the cookie militants have been working very closely for a very long time in the 90s to contain the
The Naga Insurgency 2004 to 2007 to flush out the methane Insurgency and then again with the two groups and the and the Sioux were signed in 2008 and therein after now the the so-called poppy cultivations which is spread all over at least 60 to 70 kilometers all
Over the uh all over the hills of Manipur many of them are done in very close proximity to Assam rifle camps so there is a very old kind of a history of uh mistrust that the the valley people have towards them without saying it you seem to be
Agreeing if the Assam rifles has lost the confidence of the Maite and the important thing is to ensure that you have Law and Order replace the Assam rifles whoever replaces them will give them I take confidence BSF uh I mean there’s so many of them I think that
Kind of a healing touch is required we can go into the the facts of it later but these are all feelings for Healing Touch purpose yeah it makes sense to remove the eyes I I would agree sir what about the opposite the cookie equally and equally strongly distrust the money
For police they do not want the money for police entering the hill areas they don’t trust them they see them as a Vanguard or the Sharpshooters of birencing so in return should there also be a condition manipul police will not enter the hill areas that will be left
To a paramilitary force or the Army I think it is already done de facto the Manipur police cannot operate in the Hills no not quite I was interviewing Ginza walzong the spokesperson of the indigenous tribal leaders for literally five days ago he said what the home minister had agreed is that when the
Manipur police enter the hill areas they will be accompanied by either the Assam rifles or other paramilitary or the Army right that hasn’t fully satisfied the cookie because they don’t want the money poor police at all so what I’m saying is if we agree that the Assam rifles are
Replaced to give a healing touch to the Maite similarly why not agree that the Manipur police will not enter the hill areas that will be left to either the paramilitary of the army an equal healing touch on both sides yeah equal healing touch on both sides I completely agree however the operational
Part of it of the Manipur police or Assam rifle perhaps I am not in a position to commend at this point in time considering that I don’t have no no we’re not talking principle on principle I completely agree that some Healing Touch have to be done that the hurts are
Very very deep now and therefore some level of consensus concession to feel that they are being cared for they are being people are listening to them is I think absolutely Paramount to start any kind of a process and clearly if the Assam rifles are to be replaced by the
Crpf or the itbp or the BSF and you don’t stop the money for police entering the hilarious then that would really further inflame and exacerbate so if you give one healing touch you have to give the corresponding one to the other side don’t you well having said that again Manipur
Police is not just mete to be to be precise I mean the DGP was uh a cookie and he was removed he was removed and also there are very senior the cookie didn’t like the either he was removed they felt that you were pinpointing guilt before anything had even been done right
I agree so we agree that if you’re going to give a healing touch by removing the or replacing their sample this you do need to stop the Manipur police entering the hilarious let that be done by the army or the paramilitary we agree on
That well I I don’t want to enter into a controversy you will face a backlash we will applaud you for saying remove the Assam police but they will be very upset if you agree that the money for police don’t go I understand what about something else the Army have repeatedly
Complained about the Meera paibi they say they are blocking the roads they are often blocking convoys and according to the Hindu at least on one location if not more they have actually stolen goods from army convoys very sizable amounts of food should a restraint be put on the mirabai bay as well
I think at this point in time Karan Manipur is working on a complete War hysteria the level of mobilization that is happening there the anger and obviously Army being the the the the the representative of the Indian State on the ground the anger of the people are also directed towards them I’m sure
There might be some excesses here and there uh but but on the other hand we cannot discard Myra by be totally you know it will be like throwing the baby and the butt water made up IB has been kind of a Vanguard of the society for many many years traditionally
Traditionally but I’m talking about the role they’re playing at the moment at the moment there is very strong narrative within the meteor society that that India government is not protecting us the cookie infiltrators are are going to take away our land our Hills are being destroyed by poppy cultivators and
Therefore we have to defend and that is what trigger many people to this energy to come out and volunteer and try to you know maybe they are not 100 correct but in their own innate sense of thing these are all volunteer they are not paid for
They are not they are not doing for any uh kind of uh they are doing it all for the protection of the community and one has to have a little bit of an need to also empathize and understand where it is because the Army is requiring would be a
Mistake I think that the made up IB protects the Manipur Society much much more than the Indian army protects the money process idea so there is a very strong kind of a connection between the people in the made up IB and if you think that might happen we can be
Removed and protect the People by the Army I think that is a totally mistaken uh kind of an analysis we have to see that these are I mean at the end of the day made up IB is part and partial of the people and therefore if I were in a
Position to decide which one we should put the weight on I would put my uh foot on the the information to be safeguarded I think the Army is only instrumental in they should play a much more positive role and they have to look at where their interventions are required you
Cannot be too intrusive into the community’s life one more question about the law and order before I come to that very intractable issue of the politics Underneath It All if all the things we’ve talked about I won’t repeat them but all the things we talked about do not enforce Law and
Order the concern in the periphery the shooting the random killing continues do we then need president’s rule that cannot be ruled out but before we jump into the president’s rule I don’t know if again if we are trying to enter into the BJP shoes it would
Make a lot of sense to replace balancing with your own another BJP leader who can communicate with the the the the the cookies uh and start the process presidents rule rule is a very naked thing then you could be a confrontation will be directly with the central central government and that has never
Worked well with money posters once again doesn’t it the need to remove beer and sing because a fresh face would still be a BJP phase the government will still continue yeah the first phase would still be presumably a mete chief minister but it would appease the
Cookies because the man the hate is gone they have not to deal with the new man yeah exactly that is I mean some kind of cons I mean at the end of the politics is about give and take and and some amount of give and take is necessary you can’t say
That whether you like it or not we are imposing this on you and after this kind of uh violence and and you know uh betrayal and sense of deprivation and hatred and anger and grievances you have to start with something and this is underlining the irresponsibility of stubbornly refusing to remove beer and
Saying let’s come then to the bigger wider political problem it can only be tackled after Law and Order is enforced but now for the sake of our conversation let’s assume some semblance of Law and Order is enforced it may take weeks it may take months but it is enforced how
Then do you begin to tackle the political problem should it be the government doing it either at the state level or the center or should they put forward Civil Society groups and highly respected individuals one name that comes to my mind is should it be people like that rather than the government itself
I think it make a lot of sense to have Civil Society start a process to work out the nitty-gritties of it because all said and done when government are present there is always a lot of power involved in it there’s a lot of power Earth symmetry with people who are going
To be negotiating so it make a lot of sense to thrash out those you know nitty-gritties and and you know uh the the nuts and bolts first at the at what you call the the track 2 level rather than going Trek one directly uh it is
It’s easier to thrust this out so I think a civil society process where you have the nagas the as well the cookies and the mehte to Envision what is the nature of Manipur that you you want to live in I think will be very very critical you
Kind of uh because that that kind of a the dialogue process cannot happen with the government father Walter Fernandez in an interview he gave me yeah said that maybe because the BJP government will find it difficult to take the initiative itself they should look to the Miso government and the Naga
Government to take an initiative these are two states that understand Manipur let their Chief ministers get involved not directly but again through Civil Society groups does that make sense to you it makes a lot of sense but I would also come with a little caveat because uh
The Naga is in Manipur has the demand for a nagalim the cookies are also looking for a larger cookie thing so in that if that is the case again the Mayte might feel a little you know that that they feel under pressure under pressure that you are you are pushing so I think
I I mean I I think we have to come with little out of box if it is this the thinking is the same of demanding greater nagalim greater mizoram Manipur territorial Integrity if we go around and round in this perhaps the solutions will never come so we might have to
Think a little outside of the box on how do we accommodate different uh you know cultural and political identity within this is where Civil Society gives it and individuals exactly a big role exactly where where they don’t have the the that rigidity of having to defend a particular position
A kind of an open-minded uh you know brainstorming would be required to this tell me are there people in Manipur at the moment throwing up ideas are there people in Manipur talking about possible solutions out of the box ideas or is it too early for that uh well I think
Because the conflict is very high in the intensity this has not come out in the public discourse but internally it’s a lot of internal discourses that is happening for example recently there is this group of elderly manipuris who have come together called it’s like walking stick for ten it’s like a collective of
Elders and there are already a lot of internal discussions happening on see further in a way the cookie dominant narrative again I’m sure there are multiple narratives within cookie also but the dominant narrative is to create some kind of a autonomy for themselves maximalist could be the state minimalist
Could be what they say they were already working out with AKA Mishra about it kind of an autonomous territory Council possibly under schedule six yeah yeah that is uh so so how can uh Manipur the larger Manipur uh territorial integrity and emotional integrity and this whole Legacy of Manipur I mean whether you
Like it or not again they feel that they are putting the Legacy taking the legacy of this 2000 years of history and perhaps many more thousands of years of History that’s going to come and and this burden is on the on the on the manipuri uh civil society today and and
How do one accommodate this autonomies within uh Manipur is also an issue and and side by side with accommodating the autonomies and I’m happy you’re bringing it up because that is the dominant cookie demand but that is also a dominant Maite demand that has to be thought about the land imbalance yeah
And the might they want a solution to that the preferred one is give our schedule tribe status which the cookies are hotly disputing but these are the two vexed political issues that have to be thought about out of the box separate Administration for the cookies the land imbalance for the Maite
You know what uh the Len imbalance seems to me more of fear that whatever they are having now may be lost be gone maybe lost because I mean with lot of fanfare the chief minister has inaugurated the coming of the uh train and with the coming of the train uh
In a one-way it’s a it’s a boon that you can transport things quickly but on the other hand large number of populations are going to come in and some of them may be poor coolies on the platform but some big kind of Rich interests are also going to come in and
This little land of eight percent military land the only land which which the the corporates will be able to buy and tomorrow will this again dry up is I think I think more pressing question this whole fear of many of our friends from the hill that my trees are going to
Take over land I think uh is not uh again totally true because maithai as a culture is a very Wetland adapted culture uh and I know many people who live in the hill feel a bit like fish out of water and there is not a very strong demand for unlocking the the hill
Uh lens in the hill again it will be more the corporate interest which will immediately so can I just can I make that simpler for the audience because they make it last you’re saying that the mighty demand yeah to be given schedule tribe status the mighty land imbalance
Is not that they want to acquire land in the Hills they are not actually threatening cookie and Naga land Holdings in the Hills they want to secure for themselves the valley because they are scared not about necessarily cooking in the valley but others from the rest of India coming in because the
Train has now arrived that’s what they wanted large corporates will take over the 10 that is the value yeah that is the fear that hasn’t been understood I think so I mean that that is where we need dialogue and heart-to-heart dialogue to understand I don’t see any
No midday middle class is going to buy Glenn in the in the Hills once it opens because the tendency even within the valley the tendency is to buy land near the town because that’s where all the facilities are perhaps when you have a much more Equitable development perhaps
People can think of it but as of now that is not the immediate nobody is trying to buy land in the hill there’s no kind of a b line to you know go and grab land but tell me these two yeah political the land imbalance for the mete the separate Administration for the
Cookie do you think Civil Society can throw up ideas that can Bridge the gaps I think that is the only source uh I mean independent people Civil Society have to admit face to face eye to eye and look into each other and say do I try and understand where is that
Fear coming from is it a real fear is it is it just Hypes or are we able to enter into each other’s shoes and empathize with other each other I think that’s the only way out and other things and when civil society and when individuals try and talk you’re saying the government
Should keep out of it let them come up let them come up with an agreement governments should only implement it governments should possibly facilitate those processes but I think to a large extent the solution has to emerge from the people and if we are a democracy
Those will of the people is what the government should be formulating it into a policy and built it unfortunately the other way seems to be more the threat you know but coming right to the end of this interview one thing is going to be apparent to the
Audience this is a very difficult and complicated situation where the political problem has become intertwined with emotion on both sides and with identities and Histories on both sides would you accept this is not something that’s going to be either easy to solve or quickly to solve it could take years
Maybe even a decade I completely agree it’s a very complex and perplexing issue but any protected contract conflict anywhere in the world is like that there is a need for people coming together understanding each other understanding the complexity of it and I like the phrase that John Paul leatherage used
What is he calls it the moral imagination rooting yourself standing on the ravage and the conflict and the killings and the destruction are you able to imagine a future a common future wherein you see these destructive relationship gradually transforming into a constructive relationship variety differences diversity can be a source of problem but
That can also be the resource of peace and a much more colorful life Manipur has gone through very very difficult phase in the past 2000 and I mean 18 19 to 1826 we were almost depopulated and kind of extinct in the in the hands of the Burmese I
Think we are going through a similar phase now uh this is quite unprecedented in many aspects but I’m quite positive that there are enough good people among the cookies and excellent people within the may days who will find a way out and that is of course a challenge but I wish
The government helps and facilitate to to for for these kind of solutions to emerge rather than you know constantly uh putting fire so that on both sides to make it burn um with with greater ferocity we hope that people will be able to be prevailed
And uh we will we will we will at some point look back to this time difficult time in history and said that was tough but we have we have we have come overcome it uh I look forward to that day and uh thank you very much indeed and I hope
Nothing that you said today will get you into trouble when you return to imphal stay safe look after yourself thank you correct hi I’m Karan thapper over the last few years I hope you’ve been watching my program the interview on The Wire during that period I’ve interviewed doctors politicians businessmen
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