And shed loads more French names that I’m only going to butcher do you know what I’m talking about as viewers of this show you probably do these are the French Marshals the man who commanded Napoleon’s armies from 1804 to 1815. Napoleon appointed 26 of them during his
Reign boy I thought this was Redcoat history why are you talking about a cheese munchers all right mate calm down it’s always good to learn about Britain’s enemies especially when they were thumped by Wellington I mean to give the French a damn good thrashing for anyone who
Doesn’t know the British army fought the peninsula war in Portugal Spain and France between 1808 and 1814. it was there this guy Sir Arthur Wellesley later the Duke of Wellington cemented his reputation as arguably Britain’s greatest ever General today is the first ever Redcoat history live stream I’m a
Bit nervous so do bear with me I’m joined by John viscardo host of the generals and Napoleon podcast who’s going to talk about those French Marshals who fought in the peninsula guys feel free to share comment and send your questions if you’re watching this live we’ll try and answer them Live
While we’re talking how’s your time Says mums ladies and gents how are you welcome to the Redcoat History Podcast and YouTube channel as I said there’s the first ever live broadcast and hopefully we’re going to have some fun I’ve already got one comment in fact there’s two John John Clark he says
Hello all hello to you John uh if you’ve got any questions later do post them in the comments here because I do see them and I can drag them on screen and we can throw them throw them at our guests and see if they can answer so talking to
Guests our first guest today and the one you’ve already heard about the one and only John viscardo let me bring him up on screen and he can tell you a little bit about himself John how are you I’m great thanks for having me on the show
This is fantastic I’ve been on a couple of podcasts now that’s the best intro I’ve ever had excellent glad to hear it well John just quickly this is your moment to shine tell everyone who you are what you do and uh if they like what they see today
How they can hear more from you yeah I have a little podcast called Generals in Napoleon as you can see from my lovely shirt and it’s just mostly about the people who serve Napoleon not so much Napoleon himself so uh the topic today is right up my alley we’re talking
Marshalls I love talking about any of Napoleon’s 26 Marshals they’re all interesting guys they all had a lot of highs and lows and uh I think your audience is going to join this episode this should be fun brilliant stuff we’re already getting comments coming in cam Simpson friend of
The show who woke up at 5am I know that for a fact in Australia says morning mate from cam I’m hoping he’s still in his pants as he’s watching uh someone called loet collector says when I got the announcement it said Wellington’s and it looks like the word penis there
So I think there’s a bit of a mistake there but uh rather amusing good evening everyone from Mystery j04 so talking of mystery characters guys we’ve got a second guest coming today let’s see if I’ve got the right the right noise to introduce the man who I see as the goat
Of British military history of this of this era at least certainly on Twitter he’s the goat anyway let’s bring him in hold on a minute and a bit of applause guys up up this side the one and only Marcus crib so we know we’re in for good
Fun today we’ve got John who’s going to hopefully tell us a good story and me and Marcus who are basically just going to rip the piss have a good time and tell him why why British generals bested French Marshalls every time um Marcus how are you mate I’m really good I’m sorry
I’m Superstar this guy let’s go no great thank you so much for having me on and uh it’s great to see two friends of mine from podcasts uh in one digital room at the same time so this is going to be really good fun brilliant stuff well mate just quickly
This is your moment tell everyone who doesn’t know you where they can find you in the future uh going forward and a little bit about your own background and why you’re why you’re qualified to speak on these topics yeah so I was the manager for several years of actually house and Wellington
Arts due for Wellington’s London home and Memorial and it led me into a rabbit hole of Napoleonic history which I now headlong into love it as you say Twitter but I started Battlefield guiding now at Waterloo five times uh maybe a few more uh and have Peninsula War tours coming up in
Waterloo and that’s probably where I’m going to spend a lot of time I’m writing my first book and I love doing anything I can Napoleonic as much as possible around the day job really brilliant stuff well look I’m just going to look at the comments we’ve got one
From Ivan sordo let me see if I can bring that on screen I know Ivan from Twitter can you see that on screen there if I put it up good afternoon from San Francisco good afternoon to you Ivan and we’ve got another one here oh Noah Gibson’s already jumping straight in
With some some detailed talk here he said salt is a talented guy from from Russia who gave Wellington a run in 1813. well I’m not sure about that we’ll chat about that later but thanks for getting involved already Bill Stevenson he says he’s playing hooky from work man
After my own heart if you can ever find me at work which is not too often all right brilliant stuff well look let me switch to John John first off I want to ask you the key question what actually is a French Marsh I know this seems a
Silly question but we talk about Marshalls but what actually is one can you explain yeah I’m glad you asked um a marshall people kind of get confused with it it’s not really a military rank it’s more of a military distinction and it was first awarded in the 12th
Century in France by uh I think it was King Philip II and over time you know Kingswood award generals who had a great performance or an exceptional achievement in battle or war and give him this baton and make them a marshall the Baton was a I don’t
Know about this this long and it was like a blue uh like velvety wrapped stick that basically showed that you were a marshal of France and had a latinum description that said Terror and War and ornament and peace now there was a ton of Marshals made up until the French Revolution
At that time in 1789 you know the principles of egalitarianism and equality of the French Revolution didn’t necessarily jive with having these guys who were above and beyond anyone else in the military so they got rid of it until in 1793 until Napoleon came around in 1804 and reinstu reinstated the
Marshland why did he do that two reasons one the Army was kind of fragmented at the time there were some whose or were Republican generals there were some that were royalist Generals there were some that you know really believed in Napoleon so in an effort to kind of
Unite the French army he made 18 Marshals of the empire in 1804 and gave them this prestigious title uh the second point of making all these Marshals was that Napoleon realized he could not be everywhere at once so these guys were kind of like his viceroys or his Warlords so as Napoleon’s empire
Grew and extended outward Napoleon kind of left it to be run by these these Marshals and some did a good job administering uh like Marmont some did not like Messina but that’s kind of the quick thumbnail sketch of what a marshall was okay fantastic well I’m going to bring
Marcus in here because Marcus obviously you know a lot about the British army of this era what would be the British equivalent of a marshall would such thing have existed like how would we how would we compare uh so we can compare two ways so we had
It very much as a rank uh we had field Marshall uh which is you know an equivalent it’s the highest rank in the British army uh and also carries a baton ceremoniously uh but also it would be the senior ranks uh in the field and so you’d get devolved commands field
Marshals are few and far between uh Duke Wellington for example being won by the end of his career but he spent a lot of time at different various General ranks so we had Brigadier General uh now Brigadier uh we then have major general lieutenant general in general confusingly major generals lower uh and
That’s because if you don’t know going back it actually used to be Sergeant Major General uh so then that was abbreviated uh down so uh it would be then whoever was the most senior in the field uh and if there was confusion or disagreement it would be whoever was
Promoted first so it does sometimes lead to um some kind of very confusing changeovers for example when as he was losing command after the battle of Romero and then subsequently replaced and replaced so we don’t have that clear-cut you’re a martial you’re devolved and go off and do your own thing
Um you know we have a very clear rank structure Napoleon for the example you know he brings it in because he wants to promote his friends maybe uh yeah so it’s slightly different way we’ve got to it fantastic we’re talking to promoting friends we are going to we are going to
Get to one of those characters a little bit later but before we crack on John I wanted you to explain the premise of today’s episode for anyone who’s just joined us is we’re looking at the French Marshals of the peninsula and I said to you John at the beginning maybe you
Could choose three you want to talk about in detail and of those at the end of the episode you’re going to tell me who you think was the best of those three so before we begin can you give us a sense of why what what the for you why
Those three people we’re about to discuss were chosen what was your you know what were the prerequisites for you that these three are the ones I want to talk about and then briefly who did you leave out and why can you give us a sense of a sense of that
Sure yeah a number of uh Napoleon’s Marshals served in Fran uh excuse me in the peninsula War it was a long War I think 1807 to 1814. so a lot of Marshals were placed there including McDonald Victor nay sancir ojiru a lot of those were not in Spain very
Long because they didn’t perform well and and Napoleon had no problem sacking uh Marshalls or generals or friends who weren’t performing well he expected Miracles he expected victories he did not expect losses so I picked those three because they were probably I would say the top performers of the
Marshals that were there I mean they did an okay job but he just didn’t believe in the uh in the whole Enterprise he wasn’t big on uh conquering a country just to loot it or just to evict you know trade partners of England um so I picked my mom and my Savage
Because they probably had the most epic confrontations with the British and the Spanish and the Portuguese there is one name that we’ve left out that I think people might be surprised about which was sushi yep was that just because he was over on the east and he kind of gets forgotten
Or is there more of a reason that you didn’t want to include him yeah I’m glad you brought him up uh yeah he was over in the East he was closer to the border with France so he didn’t have to deal with as many uh logistic problems as some of the other Marshals
Did he also didn’t have to go up against the probably top 10 Generals of all time in the Duke of Wellington it was kind of funny neither one of them wanted a piece of the other one wanted nothing to do with Wellington and Wellington wanted nothing to do with
Sushi so they kind of wearingly eye at each other but they never engaged in battle that sounds a little bit like a modern day heavyweight boxing you’ve got the greats they’d rather not fight each other yeah indeed uh do you agree Marcus yeah I think Sushi came up quite a lot
In some of the uh previous chats and social media I’ve seen already about tonight and uh yeah they didn’t they didn’t line up uh you know Toe to Toe uh to carry on the analogy I’m gonna run shortly I’m afraid I love a good I love a good boxing analogy
I try I’ll try um but they didn’t you know they didn’t square off so it’s difficult to make those comparisons and uh you know to to carry on those you know Wellington does throw left and right hooks at lots of different loving it loving it including I’m trying uh
Including uh you know nay he gives a good uppercut too uh which is uh kind of John’s man uh so uh yeah there’s what’s interesting about doing it from that angle is that we can actually compare some of the really big names and really talented generals but they’re very
Different uh Styles and command outcomes uh for their careers as well brilliant well well look the biggest question I have we’re going to start with salt but the biggest question I have is how do you pronounce his name I’ve heard it sue soul John I think this is one for you mate
You you you strike me as a man of uh sophistication who will probably be able to tell us exactly how it should be pronounced oh boy a lot of pressure I I need my uh my podcasting buddy Lafayette pod to help me out with this but I think it’s
Sought with it with the t is pronounced I have heard it other ways as well but I’m gonna go with salts uh in terms of pronunciation okay makes sense well in that case why don’t we crack on actually I think we’re going to start with salt I think why
Don’t you give us a bit of a potted history let’s say five to ten minutes maximum of his background you know where he was from his early days in the Army and you know his his career up until and including the peninsula we can keep it quite tight and we will take questions
Guys so if anyone uh I can see these comments coming in Rachel Stark says Spain was a graveyard for many martials reputations very true uh what else have we got here miles Abbott watching from the start loving it Lads thanks for all the work you do well thanks to you for
Watching mate and then a couple of comments that it’s such a shame that um Sushi and Wellington never actually met in battle so so there you go so let me pull up my Graphics here we go so I’m going to let you go for it John here’s a
Bit of background information on salt and I’ll try and bring up the the the right slide at the right time there you go Rachel’s saying Salt River Tea thank you Rachel all right John John take it away mate we we will interrupt you probably mock you
From time to time uh drop in a few comments but you go for it mate and we’ll we’ll wing it and see how it goes yeah please interrupt and uh you know people watching if I screw something up please comment so I can get it right brilliant before we begin I just think
We need a little bit of uh sound effects Sorry you can see this equipment is new and I’m a little bit over excited so I’ll try and stay quiet and let you crack on for a bit John okay yeah I appreciate that uh sound effect I don’t know how I can come follow that but uh jungle please yeah I did
Um so yeah uh the future martial assault I was born I believe uh in 1769 same year as Wellington and Napoleon he was the son of a notary and lawyer but uh not a noble nobleman of any kind he’s just a common commoner and uh grew up
And was probably in line to become a lawyer he was well educated like his father so I think those skills that he learned while he was young did him well as he became a general later on he was he quick to move up through the ranks he
Joined as it says here as a private uh when he was 16 years old in 1785 and worked his way up to Sergeant now free French Revolution that was as far as he’d ever get you know there was no jumping up to officer unless you were Noble so you know he did
His best he he was a really good drill sergeant and um in fact in the camps of balloon before the uh intended invasion of England they called him iron hand or iron arm because he was so strict with the training and discipline of his soldiers so great trainer of men uh he
Really instilled a lot of confidence in his men and after the French Revolution he was quickly promoted up through the officer ranks at the Battle of Flores in 1794 he was probably the one who held the French line together and that was a slog of a battle that was a 15-hour battle
And sold said it was the worst thing he’s ever seen uh fighting the austrians in that battle and there was one instance and Chris brought up to me yesterday um one of the divisional commanders came running up the colonel soul I think it was Marcel and he said hey I’m getting
Caved in by the austrians give me some of your your troops I need to launch a counter-attack and soul was like nah you know I’m working under General Le favor I can’t just give you men without checking with him and Marcelo said give me men now or I will blow my brains out
Classic right I’m not giving you my man you sound like you’ve lost your your nerve or your mind just calm down regroup and I’ll send you a few battalions when I have time and Marcel listen to souls even though he was below a colonel most below a general clearly I listened to Sultan
They rallied their men and they kind of Flores was a win for the French but both sides suffered about 5 000 losses and casualties after the battle General Marcel went and found sold and said hey you know what you taught me a great lesson today I did lose my head and I
Appreciate you calming me down so a lot right off the bat people noticed that sold was smart he had good handling of tactics and he was calm Under Fire those would all do him well on the bad side of salt he was very greedy he was tempetuous he was
Um you could be a bit of a prima donna and a lot of cases he thought he was the smartest person in every room in a lot of cases he was but um he he didn’t work well with others I should say Marcus how am I doing
Yeah I think you’re being quite generous as well thank you my friend so yeah um After the Revolution he rises swiftly through the ranks like it says here he gets the Brigadier General uh right around the time of the florist battle and he doesn’t serve Napoleon uh until
Quite later he actually serves under messena uh at 1799 the Battle of Zurich which we’ll get into under vicena but um those two make a pretty good team at least initially uh in 1800 as it says here he’s badly wounded helping messena defend Genoa and that was a huge
Um I guess defense of a city that Napoleon needed those troops in Austria the Austrian troops would be tied down so he could launch an attack and win a Morengo over the Alps in Italy so that battle unfortunately for salt he was wounded in the knee I believe he was
Shot in the knee during a sortie from the fort of Genoa and that that wound he was captured and thrown in jail and treated quite harshly and I think ever since that moment where he was a prisoner and treated harshly he resolved never to be in the front lines
And you say well you know why is that such a problem the generals of Napoleon were and the marshals were required to usually work from the front lines so they could see actions real time Napoleon didn’t want anyone in the back and the rear lines getting messages from Messengers and far
Away from what was happening in real time after school was wounded he was eventually released after Napoleon wanted Marengo but after that terrible experience he never wanted to be at the front lines again and I think this would cost him because he he was very good at laying
Out his chess pieces in a battle he did a great job before battle but as Wellington once remarked once the battle started he never knew quite how to handle his pieces on the chessboard he never knew how to improvise as messena did or Napoleon did so as I mentioned um in 1804 Sultans
Made one of the first 18 Marshals of the empire he was a key figure during the battle of the Australis the Protestant Heights which was the linchpin of the the Allied line after the Russians and austrians left that proton Heights to attack Marshall Devoe Napoleon ran up to the
Sold and said hey how long do you need to capture the Heights and soul said 20-man sire so Napoleon said okay let’s wait just a few more minutes for all the uh Allied Forces to get off the Protestant Heights and then I want you to launch your forces up that hill
And Seoul did a great job of that alsolets was a huge victory for Napoleon and um like it says here Napoleon was thankful for his efforts both there and and the war against Prussia and he was made a Duke an 1808 the Duke of Dalmatia how am I doing Chris I think you’re
Doing well mate I think we’ve we’ve we’ve ripped through that quite quickly so now I think we’re coming to what we really care about is we’re getting towards the peninsula so I don’t know if you want to jump in and give us give us an overview the sort of you know the the
Satellite view of his time in the peninsula just just sort of quickly spell out where he was where he fought uh we don’t need too many conclusions now because we’re going to have our big sort of concluding thought at the end but just so people get a sense of his
Career maybe some of his key battles and how he performed that would be great sure thing so after Napoleon defeated the Allies in 1807 he wanted a strict adherence to his Continental System and that’s great in theory but Portugal who Marcus will tell you is the oldest trading partner of England that goes
Back centuries so Portugal didn’t want to end this Alliance so Napoleon sent in Juno a friend of his General Genoa to conquer Portugal he sent in Marshall sold a few like a year after that to chase the English out of Spain at Corona and after Corona school was supposed to go down and
Conquer Portugal for the second time but he got hung up in Oporto doing two things one looting which was his favorite pastime and two he he was trying to make himself a candidate to be king of Portugal now yeah he did have delusions of grandeur martial assault and I think
That cost him here instead of doing what he was supposed to be doing which was capturing Lisbon he kind of got it in his head that like uh Napoleon’s brother-in-law Mira that he would be made a prince or a king and Napoleon caught one to this and said
No that’s not why you’re there you’re there to conquer the country not be king I made Kings not you because um even some of his own officers didn’t want uh salt to have this and there’s an episode where uh one of Suits AIDS actually rides down leads um intelligence with Wellington saying
Can we meet up and basically chat about what Salt’s doing he wants to make himself King this is really strange and Wellington meets him purposely out of Camp so that this aide can’t see Wellington the strength movement and they kind of Wellington doesn’t fully agree because he’s cautious that it’s a
Trap but he’s this uh aide is asking for assurances that if he overthrows kidnaps or kills suits that Wellington will support him and potentially shift them back to Paris a bit like what happened after akuruna so uh yeah salts uh kind of his head’s too big for his hat uh quite early
John says he he wants to be king uh king of Lusitania uh was the old title and uh it leads to this really strange almost treason thank you Marcus yeah yeah and uh it was just a weird thing where he thought he could make himself King but uh yeah
Napoleon put the kobash on that Napoleon’s comes back and everyone’s you know uh equal playing field After the Revolution all of a sudden he’s bringing back the answer and regime titles there’s Dukes again there’s counts there’s princes and then he’s giving you know kingdoms away he makes his brother
You know the king of Spain and uh himself you know uh various kingdoms his son the king of Rome so it’s not that’s a little bit later but it’s a little it’s not completely bizarre that he maybe wants that but um I don’t think he wants to maybe roof I don’t think he
Really wants to rule Portugal I think he likes the title I think it’s a ego thing possibly yeah yeah I agree so while that’s going on Wellington also is kind of creeping up on Oporto and soul kind of just dismisses it he’s like oh no we’re protected by water uh
Wellington doesn’t have the boats to sneak attack us and almost a while still is sleeping he gets his butt handed to him by Wellington and he has to go bounding out of Oporto in Portugal without his cannons without his wounded soldiers without a lot of his loot because he was so overwhelmed by
The British onslaught and so I’m going to come back to that later but that’s one of the reasons why uh salt is not my my favorite number one Marshall but uh I won’t ruin it yet well I know someone who might who might be writing a book about that very subject
Actually so uh watch this space it’s going to be so good he’s playing his tongue go ahead Marcus go ahead go on jump in Marcus you know you want to no you did I know I really do um but no you’re right I mean he literally he dismisses
Um Wellington’s on the South Bank uh of the the suburbs and uh he dismisses that as Wellington’s not going to be up to cross Seas uh assured that all the Portuguese boats have been taken to the north bank and that they’re secure and to summarize you know what’s been going
On in the Porto is Despicable Warfare there’s been raping murdering looting the the worst crimes that the French army can commit against the civilian um inhabitants there it really is uh disgusting what happens in Porto and uh so the Portuguese are Keen to help and they go out with some boats they
Link it up with an intelligence officer uh the men of the Buffs the third regiment the foot cross and uh kind of catch sorts literally napping uh we think actually he was in bed at the during the beginning of the battle on when their first spotted on the North
Bank he goes oh they’re probably just my Swiss because the the French Swiss soldiers wore red jackets and so yeah he leaves without very little uh and uh yeah famously leaves his loot behind and then the loop that he does take including the pay chest he
Has to Chuck into a ravine so uh yeah John’s right there supporter is a an exciting one but he you know really quite laid back about the whole situation thinks he can just walk out with all of his Loot and uh goes back to bed basically yeah no brilliant and if anyone is
Interested to know more about that Marcus really is you know one of the experts on that and is I hope you don’t mind me going on about it Marcus but he’s currently writing a book about that that very battle so uh watch this space follow Marcus on Twitter if you don’t
Already and uh yeah he’ll he’ll be able to give you even more information on that it is I you know it is one of Wellington’s Finest Hours I think but anyway we’re here to talk about salt let’s not get sidetracked by how amazing Wellington was I know you know Marcus
And I are fanboys to be fair um John do you want to carry on mate and pick up there now after after his thrashing at Porto what happens next yeah he goes bounding up to Galicia where Marshall nay is stationed and you know he kind of refits and regroups under Marshall News protection
And he kind of it was a good blow to his ego it’s probably the best thing for him quite frankly uh he kind of recovers after that uh in 1809 he kind of defends Madrid uh the capital against a Spanish Army and absolutely routes the Spanish
Army at okanya or Akana and he kind of recovers his um his confidence is his esteem in Napoleon’s eyes after that he kind of floats around uh Andalusia he’s basically a Viceroy of southern Spain um he doesn’t like I said work well with the other Marshals in Spain and just
Kind of is content looting wherever his army is stationed uh in 1811 um the British are sieging uh town called battle house and to relieve The Siege salt actually launch is probably one of the closest run battles the British fought at albuera in fact it’s the bloodiest
Battle I think both sides lose several thousand men and now this wasn’t under Wellington this was under his Lieutenant Beresford but it was a heck of a battle in fact Soul thought he would want it he said you know I pierced their Center I flanked their army they were the British were just
The worst soldiers in the world they don’t know when to run and uh the Alberta battle it was almost I can’t even call it a win on either side in fact after the battle Wellington got Barrister’s report and said uh this won’t do write me down to Victory
Because I don’t want the people in England to find out about this battle so he’s still performing well um he kind of he really rubs King Joseph of Spain the wrong way who’s Napoleon’s brother because quite frankly Sultan knows he’s smarter than Joseph and his military advisor Marshall Jordan
So finally Joseph gets his way and have salt sent out of Spain he goes to the German front to fight at the Battle of boutson lutzen with Napoleon but while he’s gone uh Joseph promptly loses a battle of Victoria and the Spanish position for the French arm is
I guess compromised to the to the last and they actually have to go over the Pyrenees to escape Wellington and his army so Napoleon sends his fireman uh sold back down into Spain to retrieve the situation which he does and basically fights on the Pyrenees Mountains he fights Wellington to almost
A stalemate now Wellington press is on from 1813 and 1814 but sold he’s a great defensive General um and he really fights he even fights um Wellington after Napoleon is abdicated at the Battle of Toulouse so that’s my kind of quick biography of soul and now after Napoleon abdicates
The first time so goes to work for King Louis the 18th of course Napoleon comes back from Melba so it becomes his chief of staff they lose at Waterloo and so it has to flee the country till 1819. but I just wanted to finish there and see if
We wanted to just focus on the peninsula War well I think it’s worth it’s worth doing actually I would to just hear a very overview because his is a career that went much Beyond uh the peninsula isn’t it you know so just give us the sort of the 30-second Lowdown of what happened
To him you know obviously we’ve got Waterloo and then in his subsequent career you know where he basically had a whole other career didn’t he could you sum that up for us yeah I would say his post Napoleonic career was the best of any of the
Marshals uh he works his way uh to be a war minister he also becomes martial general of France which is a talk about a rare thing there’s more people who’ve walked on the moon than have been Marshall of uh general of France so that’s a lofty title he lives to an old
Age he makes All the Right Moves and steps which is something Marshall Marmont does the opposite of after Napoleon’s downfall so he carries on I think till 1852 or 1853 is when he let me see when when he passes but uh he really does a fine job
He becomes prime minister of France uh yeah 1851 is when he dies and he’s revered by the people of France uh he creates the French Foreign Legion which is a one of the best fighting forces in the world to this day so Marshall assaults uh I mean what a career I mean
From where he started to where he ended I I don’t think he could have done a better job long term than he did fantastic well I think that sums it up really well there’s one incident I want to ask Marcus about because I think this is right at Marcus’s alley and I know
You spoke about it on your own podcast John but I think it’d be nice to hear from Marcus on this when Wellington and salt met many years after the peninsula War I’ll let you pick up the story there Marcus do you know what I’m talking
About by the way do you know what you’re talking about yeah Harry Met Sally then it was uh salt meets Welly um yeah so they they do me uh actually we think 1814 they certainly their carriages passed and they’re in the same room because salt is
Um minister of War for the for the Royals of France but they meet in London uh so Saul carries on this amazing career as you say prime minister and uh he’s invited over for Queen Victoria’s coronation which people don’t realize that Duke of Wellington is the high
Constable of England and uh is kind of officiating lots of the ceremony and uh so he’s at that in the room with Wellington and so then Wellington invites him to one of the Banquets he’s having at Absolute house uh and it’s my old office and if you don’t visit uh let
Me tell you that there’s loads of imagery loads of fantastic art including surprisingly loads of images of Napoleon and that’s you know shows the influence that you had at the time uh and Wellington does the best he can to kind of remove those items and so because his
Things showing his battle honors and stuff and invites him to dinner and then when suits uh is there in the same room as Wellington uh in London Wellington grabs him by the arm and says Ah I have you at last because of course these men they fight each other and we often feel
You know we’re comparing a against B but the the battlefields aren’t big by modern standards uh what Waterloo Pharmacy you know Napoleon gets within about a mile of Wellington they never meet but these men rarely meet you know they look at each other through telescopes probably uh or maybe you know
The mark when eyeball from horseback and things like that so regardless elbow says like I we I’ve have you at last and they do they they dine together at Wellington’s house so I love it it’s kind of nice yeah yeah I love that yeah no that is brilliant
And you know what before before we move on to my mom I just want to go through the comments because there’s there’s a lot of comments here Marco uh sarava sorry for butchering your name mate says hi guys hello to you welcome we’ve got uh Nicholas Dennis or perhaps that’s
Nicola Denis he says nay was the best martial he beat Crawford at the cover battle okay uh he goes on to say he repelled Wellington at uh redina and pombal and he forced Wellington to a draw a Quattro bra so uh we don’t have to go into great
Detail but uh does does nay stand up there as the one of the great Peninsula Marshals or is this a bit of an outsider no he’s one of the great Marshals uh I will say in his performance in Russia speaks for herself even if he did nothing else with his martial career the
Russian campaign he was phenomenal but I think Spain it was just it was hard to get supplies it was hard to get troops it was hard to get good intelligence because it was such a rugged country the Spanish didn’t want them there so I think Nate did his best but it was
Really really really hard to succeed in Spain okay and then uh Jan Lindner sorry guys I’m I’m so English uh he said and it’s it’s a great quote let me put it on screen I don’t know if this is a mistake or if is is Thorn Easter something I
Should know or is that a typo do we think instead of knapsack it says each Soldier carries a Marshal’s baton in his Thorn Easter oh it’s a Napoleon quote I thought he said or is yeah yes what he’s saying that he’s basically saying like a Napoleon kind of said
Every man’s a marshall yes well that’s what I thought it was yeah go on mate he’s a great example of that I mean here’s a guy who’s probably thought all right sergeant major is going to be the highest I can ever get to and he becomes not only a martial martial general of
France which is there’s there was probably a better chance of getting hit by lightning and eaten by a shark than that happening so I I congratulate him on on on where he rose from yeah no I I think that is one of the Beauties isn’t it of sort of
Revolutionary friends is you know whatever you think of the politics and you know and Napoleon himself it was an amazing opportunity for people of talent to emerge and prove themselves and and get where they should be imagine sharp if he’d have been fighting during the French Revolution alongside those revolutionary armies
What rate would sharp have achieved eh not just a colonel that’s for sure you see these men kind of go from private Sergeant captain and then up to General really quickly you say I think we said salt you know within four years and that’s an incredibly quick uh career
That you don’t get in most of the rest of the European Army so um that does allow certainly some Talent uh to rise if I was skeptical I would say sometimes like nepotism the friendships kind of people who are closer to Napoleon um but that those ones who are talented
Rather than being leveled at you know sergeant beijer and Junior officers uh it does allow that that kind of you know fraternity um brotherhood’s egality of the uh Revolution does carry on through as much as possible it’s obviously a bit of an oxymoron because we have military ranks
And orders must be obeyed and chain of commands and all that good stuff but um it does allow some really good opportunities and I think it’s why certainly I’m interested in the marshals John’s you know doing a fantastic series on the marshals and they’re now the generals um and uh they’ve got fantastic
Characters some of them coming from like the royalist backgrounds and some of them being you know little uh more than sons of peasants and the middle classes and they would have had very different careers if not for the revolution yeah exactly well another comment here let me
Bring it on screen and I believe this is friend of the show who uh who’s been on the show before David Snape he’s also an author himself he says there’s a brilliant podcast on BBC Radio called real dictators about Napoleon and his rise to power they suggest that he uses
His Marshal’s Escape goats when things go wrong what do we think about that Gents we were discussing yeah not that long ago about nay being a scapegoat for sort of um Napoleon’s mistakes at Waterloo if you want to take that John yeah yeah I I can see that and there was
Flaws in the system obviously the mar there was 26 Marshals um they all had to listen to Marshall Bertier because he was the chief of staff but the other 25 they’re basically equal rank so they could do whatever they wanted to and didn’t have to listen
To the orders of any of the other ones um as far as scapegoating goes yeah um Marshall Bernadette mentioned once I think he captured an Italian Town once called gradisca and Napoleon chatted him he’s like well why did you risk that and Bernadette said well if I hadn’t charged and captured
This town you would have yelled at me for not being aggressive enough so I think Napoleon was just somewhat of a perfectionist so they really it was very hard to please him unless like I said you did something miraculous uh yeah they were escaped good but sometimes they deserve the criticism as
We’ll get to with Marmont and Massena fantastic right well let’s crack on there’s loads more comments that we could get to but I know we need to we need to move on and we mentioned nepotism and friendship talking of which let’s talk about Marshall my mom John do
You wanna do you want to jump in with uh with a bit of a discussion of him sure sure he’s uh the only one of the three we’re going to talk about that came from a noble family uh petite Nobles family his dad was an army
Officer in the Royal Army uh my mom was young he was one of the youngest um uh generals and uh Marshals that would come out of uh the Napoleonic era he trained to be an artillery officer and he was a damn good artillery officer like one of the best if not the best
Gunner in the French army he was also a great administrator and he quickly attached himself to Napoleon like he realized serving for under Napoleon uh in Italy that Napoleon had some great uh traits some great intelligence and they actually became roommates when neither one of them had a money uh Marmont
Napoleon and general as you know were roommates at one point so Marmont kind of basically was the whiz kid of Napoleon he was his protege and he worked his way up like I said through Italy um in the army of Italy he worked under Napoleon helping getting cannons over as
I mentioned before the Alps for the Battle of Marengo he worked with Napoleon in Egypt he was just a really smart guy now the problem with Marmont is he had a very fragile ego for whatever reason I don’t know why he was not included in the original 18 Marshals of the Empire
Probably due to his youth uh he didn’t really have a lot of independent commands either so Napoleon gave him a core to command which is pretty impressive for a young General but he did not make him a Marshall and I think that stung Marmont quite a bit and I think his ego
His ego could only take so much abuse from Napoleon and I think it reached a Breaking Point in 1814 but we’ll get to that um yeah as you mentioned here uh he was um helpful to Napoleon during the campaigns of ULM and astrolitz after that it became military and civil
Governor of Dalmatia which is where uh modern day Croatia is now that area um he did a great job he was a phenomenal administrator he built roads canals he improved the economy of that area that area hadn’t seen New Roads since Roman times so marmond did a great job of
Maintaining that area as a territory for France improving it in fact improving it so well that after Napoleon’s downfall big uh king of Audrey came to tour here at the reclaimed Dalmatia and he went on a tour with his his aides and everywhere he went um the king would say well well Who
Built This Magnificent Road Isaiah just would say the French star or Who Built This Magnificent building and his aides would say oh the French sire after a while um you know the king of Austria said you know what that’s enough it’s a Pity that Marshall Marmont did not have a few more
Years here in Croatia he did a great job um after Napoleon’s setback in 1809 at aspirin essling he called troops and from all over the Empire including marmon’s Corps from um Dalmatia to serve at the Battle of Wagram did a great job in that battle uh and was promoted to Marshall finally in
1809 but Napoleon being Napoleon gave one of his classic digs and said between the two of us I don’t know you’ve done enough to Warrant this this award this promotion now clearly it wasn’t between the two of them because we all found out about it but I think it was
It was like a almost like a like a backhanded insult to him like all right look I just helped your army win at Wagram you may be a marshal you know do you have to give me a dig but maybe Napoleon was right because as we find
Out later in Spain he he does poorly um yeah he uh let’s see he’d be after 1809 he goes back to Dalmatia he’s governing there again but our friend masana who will discuss in a little bit has a setback in Spain and Portugal so he’s relieved of his duties and replaced by Marmont
Who arrives in Spain he’s The Wiz kid he’s the Wonder kid he’s gonna do a great job and finally get rid of these British Interlopers however after some fine maneuvering and flanking of Wellington’s army our mom kind of takes his eye off the ball and allows his uh divisions to get
Too strung out what happens is if you’re Marching In Line you’re supposed to maintain contact with the divisions in front of you but there are gaps opened up because like I said before it’s a rough country in Spain and in Salamanca Wellington noticed this and charged
Headlong into this Gap in the Battle of Salamanca split the French army in two and Marmont before he could react and really fix the problem was injured by a cannon shot and it turned into a route as Marcus can probably tell you well I just want to interrupt there for one
Second I’m going to steal your glory here Marcus do you know what I would say if I was Wellington and I was sat watching that develop and I was just just having my lunch I’m just watching that I’d have a little bite of my chicken I’d throw it over my
Shoulder and I’d say by God that will do and we’d go for it what do you think Marcus what would what would you say mate I think you’re stealing one of my favorite stories um yeah and that’s how apparently it went uh either it stood in Orchard or on
Horseback uh he spotted the opportunity in his John rightly said you know the the line was extended that became strung out uh Wellington saw that opportunity uh galloped over the plane met up with a third division under no pack and then his brother-in-law and sent them charging in uh followed up by the
British heavy Cavalry effectively and uh in they went capturing two possibly three eagles and uh yeah they it was almost a complete route for uh the French you know marmont’s wounded uh as John said you know shrapnel I believe he’s got him in his back and his ribs uh
His second in command is uh wounded again and if it wasn’t for I believe claw sales rear guard action uh the British and the Allies probably would have rolled up a lot of the uh a lot of the French troops into a capture and I obviously we oversimplify uh very
Complicated but interesting battle at Salamanca uh but it’s probably Wellington’s greatest moments uh marmal um you know he’s wounded very early on so I don’t want to you know criticize him too much but he does allow that over extension Because he believes where uh the British third and seventh
Division are that’s actually the British baggage uh moving to the rear and it’s going to be a retreat so that was a bad call on his side that he basically allows that over extension uh Across The Plains of Salamanca fantastic well I think I think that gives everyone a good understanding of
That battle John do you want to pick up them what what happens to him after that he’s been injured he loses the Battle of Salamanca what’s next for him yeah he’s recalled uh by Napoleon and it’s sad too because he was doing a really good job but all it takes is one
Mistake which was what Salamanca was and it basically cost him his independent command career he does serve under Napoleon and the German campaign and does a fine job actually at Leipzig he really gives blooper some fits um but by 1814 Marmont and some of the other Marshals kind of see the writing
On the wall they’re called the droopy plumed Marshalls because they used to have these great hats and big plume and and Marmont didn’t really believe in what Napoleon was doing anymore so Napoleon’s off fighting the Battle of France basically and is doing actually a really good job uh he’s attacking blooker and schwarzberg
Schwarzenberg uh all over France and he tennis Marmont mortier and monsie to defend Paris but doesn’t really give them very many troops it’s basically National Guard troops and a few uh regiments Marmont again makes a poor decision and this is kind of like a motif in his life
He decides to become a politician he treats with the Allies he it concludes a peace treaty without checking with his Emperor he doesn’t tell his men about it which is god-awful and he marches his troops into the Allied Camp without telling them why and then tells them to
Lay down the arm their arms peace has been declared so that basically ruins Vermont’s reputation with the French army uh it doesn’t help after Napoleon returns uh Waterloo loses Waterloo and then votes for the death of Marshall nay um after Waterloo that doesn’t really help his reputation
He becomes kind of a pariah Judas if you will he serves the Royals it’s his name used in a bit derogatory term now because he was the Duke of Ragusa that’s how the French use uh you know if you were Goose or if you’re a Ragusa that’s
A bit of an insult yeah it means to betray now in the French uh dictionary so yeah I’m glad you brought that up Marcus so uh so he kind of is that is that fair do you think that’s fair uh tough question yeah yeah probably not Mira actually uh turned on Napoleon
First in January he attacked Prince Eugene’s troops in Italy but that was in Italy he was trying to hold on to his kingdom and it wasn’t under the gates of Paris that Marmont did it under the gates of Paris to his own French troops I think that’s what really sullied his
Name then during the 1830 July Revolution he was called up by the Royals again to put down a revolution his troops he led poorly and he had a flee France for the last time and basically wandered Europe is kind of he was almost like a joke like people would
Point and say there goes the man that betrayed Napoleon uh he lived a long time he visited old battlefields unfortunately he got divorced after the downfall of Napoleon but he just he was never able to return to France and and he was really universally despised it was kind of a lonely existence for
The guy just because he made some really poor decisions yeah it seems really unfair we were talking about like the different careers I just saw a comment there about Berner dots and you’re like in kind of the Game of Thrones that is the Napoleonic War you know Bernadette wins and yeah uh the
The fans of Napoleon say that he’s the biggest traitor uh even though he was given leave to go off and be the king well actually the the prince region the print Crown Prince of Sweden uh but he goes on to become uh the king of Sweden
And Norway and now Sweden and the royal family of that country is still descended from him and uh he’s called a traitor you know marmot’s called a traitor but then actually those who declared for the royal family in 1815 then back to Napoleon then back to the
Royal family which one is loyal which ones treasonous you know it’s it’s a fair question it’s a great question it’s very complicated times um you have to make good decisions Bernadette made great decisions Souls make great decisions Marmon did not General Monroe if it wasn’t for John Monroe Marshall Mormont
Would be the worst decision maker of them all more was god-awful uh and um he was a one of the best and brightest Generals in the French revolutionary era um conspired against Napoleon try to assassinate him escape to America came back because he thought Napoleon was on his
Last legs and unfortunately Moreau had his legs blown off um some Say by a cannon cited by Napoleon and died on the battlefield um but Marmont yeah I a great administrator I think he just Whenever there was two choices laid in front of him he always made the wrong choice
Yeah never good uh just quickly before we wrap up my mom last question you may have touched on this already John do you think would he have become a marshal if it wasn’t for his friendship with Napoleon let’s sum that up do do was was there a bit of you know I don’t
Know if nepotism is the right word but you know that his friendship uh allowing that to happen or is that not fair yeah you know I was looking at the Battle records of all these guys before we started talking um Santa had a one last record meaning he won 14 battles
And lost 11. salts won 17 battles and lost 22. Marmont had an independent command of only nine real battles he looked one four and lost five so did he deserve to be a marshal probably not but like like you said he was friends with Nepal but that doesn’t
Mean everything as you know was friends with Napoleon he never became a marshal Victor was friends but it took him a while to become a marshal it just because your friends have been Napoleon doesn’t automatically make you a marshall so Napoleon had a pretty good eye for
Talent he knew my mom was a good artillery man he knew he had some skill I just think he got lazy later in his career and then he didn’t believe later in his career and that that that caused his ruin yeah fair enough I mean listening listening to those facts and figures
Around one win win loss records uh Marcus knows I’m a big fan of boxing regulars who watch this show and I often present with black eyes so I still do practice the the art of pugilism from time to time but all of those records sound like journeyman Marcus what was
Wellington’s record just out of interest if you know it you probably don’t know off topic I don’t know if it’s on my head no because uh there’s always famous here’s graphic that gets shared on social media every now and again and it’s Napoleon and hundreds of wins and
Then Caesar Alexander Genghis Khan and the problem with doing win losses is often the outcome is not that clear-cut um so if we take a battle of visako for Duke Wellington great Victory but the day after nay leads an outflanking maneuver towards Lisbon uh which is fantastic Wellington has to fall back
But then he’s got the lines of Taurus redress and then that um that’s kind of starves Massena so the the clear-cut outcomes I’m a bit skeptical of sometimes you know War’s not that simple and Afraid um and you know where we look at things like abujera you know both sides write
That up as a victory both sides really kind of lost it um so uh I’m gonna say the I’m gonna take the easy option out and say it’s more complicated than that fair enough good answer um I mean it’s funny someone someone wrote me this big long comment the other
Day about all the battles the British lost in the peninsula war and you know just reminded me talking about about what you’re saying about a lot of these battles aren’t quite clear-cut I mean you know I know uh am I right in saying karuna is one of the battles that’s on
The Arc de Triumph and it’s on uh you know British British colors and it’s it’s it’s one of those where well either side could claim to have won it’s it’s complicated it happens all the time um battle for Dana is held up all the time it’s a defeat of Wellington but he
Was fighting against nay’s rear guard uh so his objective obviously is to push nay off which he achieves at the end of the battle nay’s objective is to slow Wellington down which he achieves so is it defeat or both sides it’s there’s a thing in the armed forces where you have
Tactical Victory versus strategic Victory and it gets kind of down to those kind of levels um yeah there’s definitely yeah akaruna the Army manages to evacuate under Sir John Moore who’s uh famously morsally killed uh and they managed to evacuate to Britain a bit like a early on at
Dunkirk and lots of them come back the next year and they’re re-engaged in the peninsula War but the French want to push the British army out of Portugal and Spain so they achieved their aim as well so um yeah history is often kind of that’s why it’s so interesting and
Exciting because you have these really strange arguments we’re still arguing it over 200 years later and I hope people still arguing it 200 years time exactly you know I’m surprised how friendly the comment section has been so far actually not not too many people angry with us so
Maybe that’s bad I don’t know maybe we should be upsetting more people um that’s good excellent um so I think we’ve covered Mormon quite well obviously we’ll come back for a final summation at the end when we decide who was the best overall but I
Think we want to go on John and talk about uh Andre masena is that right is he next on your list yeah yes indeed the dear child of Victory Massena fantastic let me let me pull up the Right image of him there we go okay
Yeah he was born in 1758 so he’s older than Napoleon which the other two guys weren’t really um he was basically uh born near the border of France and Italy um he was the son of a shopkeeper uh his dad was sometimes a soap maker sometimes
He was a Tanner but it was a commoner birth it wasn’t Noble and it was um I don’t know he he wasn’t sure what he wanted to do growing up he was a cabin boy uh on a ship for a little while um and then he kind of became a Smuggler
Uh for a little while he sold fruit for a little while and then he finally joined um the Army uh it was a French Royal Army in Italy and he worked his way up um to Sergeant and Warren officer which is basically the highest rank a non-noblemen could achieve and he I
Would say in terms of natural skill others will tell you Marshall Devoe is the best Marshall but in terms of strategy and just you know not worrying about what was going on on a battlefield and thinking clearly Marshall Massena was the best these quotes are great thanks for posting these Chris
Yeah fantastic as they come up I’m putting them on screen I thought it would uh give us a bit of inspiration and maybe something to comment upon and even if we don’t comment I thought they’re just good for the viewers to see what people are saying so sorry for
Interrupting John please feel free to carry on yep um and as it says here after the revolution 1789 he works his way up because there’s no restrictions on commoners being officers and becomes a general of division and I’d like Marcus to comment on this because people you know a battlefield at
This time is a very loud noisy area it’s hard to see everything there’s cannons there’s smoke there’s muskets there’s horses making noise people are screaming uh people are injured and to have a calmness in the midst of this which messena had and I think that’s what Napoleon admired most about him
That must have been hard to do wouldn’t you say markets yes and the you know the injuries themselves especially with the the aftermath of the medical care is just horrendous you know there’s there’s no painkillers that are going to be offered except for alcohol which you know
Thinners of blood so lots of it’s not good for medical treatment um survival rates bad because of that um and you know a cannon is firing several miles uh just kind of on the speed of sound so you can see it coming uh it’s going to take up several ranks of men
And uh you know we were saying about soaps being behind the lines these generals are getting to the front lines and exposing themselves to Danger uh and you know uh you know I’m always the first one to criticize uh Napoleon and things like that but bravery where bravery’s due
Um putting yourselves out there into either modern or you know Napoleonic Canon is horrific and uh you know there’s some really brave men uh we know that several of them suffered from what we say PTSD shell shock um and I think the confusion that fog of battle is real this is
Um we have smokeless gunpowders they fit like shotguns and things like that the smoke are Perfect Image um smoke is real um you couldn’t see it sorry you couldn’t see through it when there was moist days it would hang down in The Valleys um one of the anecdotes I used to tell
Is when Wellington had a the only commission one painting of the Battle of Waterloo that he ordered done and when it was done there’s like little puffs of like cotton wool kind of cloud and he said oh good not too much smoke because if you painted a battle how it really
Was you wouldn’t see anything it’d just be a big gray white mass and you that’s no good for hanging on your study wall um so to be able to that’s you know send orders you need to be able to see it you have to send out Riders uh with letters
And they might get killed on route or on the way back um yeah it’s a really difficult thing uh to do both from bravery and also from that kind of command and control Logistics uh way of doing things so to have calmness I think is showing a
Really big measure of any man hopefully no one’s too calm that they kind of um not affected by it I think that’s the the other side of things that we sometimes talk about is who who’s moved I know nay had issues and Wellington did so uh it’s that balance isn’t it you you
Want to be calm but you also need to keep an element of human emotion yeah not sure I could do yeah yeah by the way before before John cracks on I think we’ve got some really good comments here that I want to refer to because I feel myself as one of those
People that people can relate to he’s one of those generals people can relate to one of those historical figures that for all his faults and we’ll get to his fault he’s kind of likable in a weird way isn’t he and it says here um let me put this back on screen
Am I yah says masena never had a formal education only learned to read and write at 17 but was an instinctive learner natural skill it’s amazing is that is that true does that fit with your facts guys yeah yeah that sounds accurate um yeah his parents were not rich they had
Barely had enough to get by so he he didn’t really get a formal education he just kind of learned as he went I became a sergeant for many many years and learned on the Fly and I think once talent and natural ability were the main factors in getting promoted the Senate
Worked his way up the ladder and then in 1795 he he defeats the austrians at loano and he’s probably next in line to become army of Italy until some guy named Napoleon Bonaparte shows up never heard of him well there was a shopkeeper and you know
He was a cabin boy at Sea and the cabin boy you know wants to make it to a sailor wants to make it to first mate you know second in Commander a ship or you know commanding a small trading vessel that doesn’t expect to suddenly be the Marshal of you know arguably one
Of the the biggest and at the time the most powerful armies in the world if not you know Europe so uh amazing career in like meteoric rise we’re going to see lots of films and TV series about Napoleon but we don’t see it that much about his Marshals
Well one more one more comment on that from Rachel Stark she says along the similar lines of all the marshals Massena was one of those with the most inherent inherent talent for command I think that’s a fair comment it’s actually Fair that’s really good um Rachel notes and stuff about the
Marshals um thank you Rachel um yeah yeah he he does and like say he’s more he’s more likable um if you know they all they’re all out for themselves eventually I’d say and that’s why Sushi’s name comes up because he’s not such a bad looter uh but you
Know if you’re power corrupts anyway so yeah it’s hard to judge from that distance let me see if I’ve got a nice portrait am I saying that to pull up there we go you see I feel like I could have a beer with that guy I don’t know why I just
Feel like it’d be quite fun to go to a club with yeah yeah you could pull off those trousers I would love to wear that outfit I tell you my wife would hate me but I would love it all right well next time you’re over for a beer that’s uh
Fantastic well look I’ve I’ve I’ve taken us off I’ve sidetracked us a bit there John where did we get to and uh would you mind trying to get us back on track sure yeah we’re at 1795 uh 1796 Napoleon’s taking over the Army but to to get back to your portrait messena I
Mean he looked like a fun guy but he was quite ruthless he could be mean he could be very greedy uh he would tax anything he could tax that his soldiers would get he would take a cut of he hated to give money to anyone and he
Loved women almost as much as money if he if he would have put that much effort into that he did into looting into being a soldier he probably would have been above the view or in close to to Napoleon he just had a natural knack uh at being a general
Um yeah during the Italian campaign he uh is a favorite of Napoleon he performs very well at Rivoli um he helps at casted Leone he helps all of Napoleon’s great battles in Italy and really speed and maneuvering messena and Napoleon really see a eye to eye on the
Efficiency of the army and making sure they go and work fast he does not go in Napoleon to Egypt I think Napoleon had enough of his greediness at that time so he stays back and it’s probably a good thing for France that he did stay back um while Napoleon is in Italy
Uh or excuse me in Egypt um the French have many setbacks in Italy uh the Russians and austrians basically retake everything that Napoleon won in 1796 and 1797. the famous General subrov absolutely manhandles all the French Commanders and there’s only one Army basically between the Russians and austrians and
France and that’s under messena and salt and Zurich and salts in the Santa are just waiting there waiting in Zurich waiting for this Army this undefeated Army to get to them and people are saying oh you know there’s no chance Miss Santa’s gonna get destroyed even as his own soldiers and
Officers are kind of like hey maybe we should head back to France and Messina kind of just sits there and kind of like Wellington would do he striked like a cobra and absolutely annihilated uh the Vanguard of um subros troops and sent the Russians reeling austrians couldn’t help them and at the
Battle of Zurich I think is Messina’s finest moment don’t you Marcus yeah he he’s uh has a fair few you know early victories but I yeah I think Zurich is a is a fine example of his talents and he like said earlier you know he he’s in there amongst the action
For lots of it and commanding her quite heavily yep so uh that Victory basically ends the second Coalition against France he welcomes Napoleon back uh supports his uh coup for power and in 1800 he’s placed in charge of the Genoa um the city of Genoa as part of the plan
To occupy some of the Austrian Army while Napoleon goes over the Alps to surprise him at Morango he does a phenomenal job there I try to find a parallel to Miss Santa and the only thing I could come up with was General grants of the United United States federal army or Union Army
Because it nasena defeats didn’t bother him his troops dying didn’t bother him he was always ready to go to battle the next day uh in the siege of Genoa he held out for months with basically no food and no reinforcements and no resupply and basically ensured that Napoleon would win at Morengo even
Though that was a close battle so he performs very well in 1800 like I said he becomes one of the 18 Marshals of the empire in 1804 but masana being the Santa It’s never enough he says one of his friends congratulate him on being one of the 18
Marshals and uh he said aren’t you excited to be a martial he says you know kind of roughly yeah one of 18. so he he kind of he kind of realized that he is one of the best but there shouldn’t be so many other marshals on the list
Um he performs well again he sent back to Italy uh he he’s defeats the austrians there um and he really performs well although Napoleon gets a little tired of his greediness and at one point actually taxes misena several million dollars that he illegally looted from conquer countries which messena never really
Forgave him for um he has created a Duke uh Duke of Rivoli in 1808 um I’m just looking at your notes Here uh Chris oh sorry let me put it back there we go you’re good um yeah in 1808 uh this is an odd story Napoleon and Bertier and some of the
Other Marshals go on a Hunting Expedition which royalty did in that time and Napoleon being a famously bad shot uh accidentally shoots Messina in the face and causes him to lose an eye uh obviously Miss Santa’s like well who shot me uh that that that that was pretty awful and Bertier being the
Beautiful that’s an understatement oh that was pretty awful yeah takes the blame so Napoleon doesn’t have to but uh I think it’s pretty much agreed upon it by historians that Napoleon accidentally shot him in the eye it wasn’t am I Ryan thinking Napoleon was a famously bad shot or did I miss am
I misremembering that no he was he was inside though he was a fantastic Gunner like if you put a cannon cannon in Europe but you hand him a musket and he was he was clueless I was wondering that earlier when he said about Marmont being one of the best
Gunners in Europe I was like I don’t wanna don’t wanna make you choose Gunners though uh yeah no Napoleon partly like you know he would cite guns individually in battle even when he was a general he’d get behind them and cite them but you know there’s a huge
Difference between uh maneuvering a gun and checking the land and actually hands on a weapon uh they’re two really different skills so uh apparently he was really bad with that I don’t think you know you would got a lot of training of that as in office of school you know a
Bit of saber but language is a bit of maths uh not much time you know because they didn’t really use rifles uh these muskets so yeah shooting uh possibly would have had shots you know loose balls like a shotgun well and that probably would have taken out parts of
His eye uh rather than you know a musket ball going through and killing a skull so uh yeah it seemed that he probably took a load of shot from uh Napoleon and I just love the fact that his his chief of staff takes the blame for it being
Like oh sorry boss yeah yeah of course yeah yeah well we’d all do the same though right anything to help our careers surely yeah it was me I shot him I hope not um so John he’s been shot in the face obviously a pretty dramatic wound he’s
He’s getting on a bit I mean how old is he by this point um yeah he’s getting older uh let’s see he’s born in 55. he’s probably in his 50 early 50s at this point so to use an English term he’s pretty knackered is that fair to say
I I don’t know what that term means oh Americans yeah Marcus is he knackered yeah he could be quite nice yeah yeah yeah not good Queen crackers chin straps no no we’re not getting any of these things he’s uh long in the tooth he’s tired uh we’re saying John with um terrible
English uh colloquialism well so so John we’ve queued it up for you then to to tell us what happens next he’s been through all of this he’s just been shot in the face and now his boss tells him right you need to go to you know one of the most
Difficult operations we’re currently fighting we’ve got we’ve got the gorillas attacking us we’ve got this British Army who refused to leave the Spanish are still there they’re still not giving up the Portuguese are still there you go sorted out what what happens and how does he feel about that
Yeah um he before he gets to that he actually performs really well even though he was recently shot in the face and lost an eye uh and aspirin essling you can argue that he did his best work him and Marshall lawn against and possible odds fighting the Austrian
Army with a river at their back they did really well there at the Battle of Wagram he directed his core he was injured the day before the battle I think he tripped his horse trip then he got injured and he had to direct his core from a carriage which
I mean it’s basically having like a Target on your back during an entire battle uh because people were just lobbing cannons at this Carriage but he did a really good job at Bagram and Napoleon was so impressed with him he said look I we keep having setbacks in
Spain I need you to go to Spain and Portugal and end this business with the English and at this point you know Messina just wants to enjoy his wealth he’s tired like you guys says he’s knackered or old and he said I’d rather not boss I’m you
Know I just won Real AG room for you can I take a break and Napoleon said no you know your reputation alone will be enough to finish the business so Messina goes he has nay working for him who nay doesn’t want to work for another Marshal
He has Juno who was kind of crazy working for him as a core Commander uh Rainier and a couple other people who just didn’t like the Senate and messena opens up by telling his core commanders they didn’t want to be there which is a horrible way to
Ask people to work hard for you if you don’t want to be there he also brings along his mistress to Spain and I told you I liked him yeah yeah I often take my mistress to work to be fair right my colleagues don’t like it and the Mrs isn’t very happy but hey
The chances of her watching this are almost zero so I can say whatever I like [Laughter] our viewership’s going up or down feeding that brave are we um yup yeah but um yeah the that it’s not a good way to endure yourself to your men if you’re if you’re not
Commanding at the front and you’re basically in the rear with your mistress it’s just not a good example to set now for all of that he actually does do well initially cabs there’s a couple couple forts on the borders of uh Portugal and Spain um nay and
Um the center are kind of flanking around Wellington giving him fits and Wellington realizes like this is one of the best Generals in Europe I cannot screw up in front of this guy so Wellington’s very careful with his Arrangements in their first real Meetup is it a town called busaco or Picasso
Ever want to pronounce it and basically this Mountaintop that uh the British have their army set up on and messena being messena says Ah we can take that he sends it in a he sends in renier and it’s a loss it’s not a very close battle
At all and that’s really a sentence for a setback but like I said Messina he doesn’t care he’s like all right well let’s let’s carry on let’s go to the next one now at Fuentes de anoro Marcus he does a bit better in that one if you want to
Tee that one up for me yeah if you like um yeah so Fuentes he and to be fair exactly the troops do get on the Ridge and that mountain is as steep as it looks in the painting uh I Fuentes he manages to spot that what interests are something really strange
Is that he’s put his extreme flank protection as a group of Spanish gorillas uh in a village and they are supported uh by the seventh division uh known as Wellington’s mongrels uh they’re in they’re kind of a a quite a loose bunch of various troops uh statistics Durham chesses butane et
Cetera and there’s some dead ground it’s not big Countryside it’s quite open uh but you know Messina does a cracking job of managing to get his Cavalry up and into the uh the partisans into the seventh uh division really quickly catching some of them in line and uh
Wellington has to order the famous light division over in double time uh to get them out so they March over get into square and um March and square which is really hard to do and like kind of uh relief um the the seventh Division and at one point
Uh these guns are left behind and that’s the painting that we see on screen uh Ramsay’s troop and uh they they charge out uh through the French Cavalry uh Sabers drawn and you know it’s a really close uh battle there’s really Furious fighting within the village itself The
Village itself has got really tight stone walls uh and if you go there today not much has changed in 200 years it really is this little sleepy Spanish Hamlet and um it’s it’s a great place to see because it is so unspoiled but it’s you know just little gentle rolling Spanish
Countryside and within that Massena manages to to get his troops uh get the Cavalry in and also Force within the towns or the village a close hand-to-hand fighting so he does really well there it is really close and Wellington later says that if Napoleon had been there himself uh he would have
Lost well actually I think is kind of unfair on uh Messina you know how much once the battle is rolling forwards and the plan set does the general uh make the hugest amount of difference uh and that’s it had a solid tactic you know it was a three-day fight it was a skirmish
Kind of fighting on the first day very late on the second day third day this big action including Cavalry and hand-to-hand bayonet fighting and Massena comes very close I think if he’d uh been a little bit quicker as in like just timing is difficult um the seventh division would have been
Lost or the uh Wellington had spotted it quickly and sent over the light division uh that would have turned the battle or you know hand-to-hand street fighting within the village itself uh that is man on man action so the commanders make less difference within that element uh
Fuentus is you know an interesting one it is a British Victory is kind of by the end of the day quite clear Victory because master has to pull back uh but there’s some very close moments uh within it it’s on this you see the map there it’s on this kind of border
Between ceridad rodigo and Hamido where we get a lot of fighting on those uh big Countryside and put the pin in the map there and you can visit quite a few sites and that’s why uh so many battles took place and you know that was that
Was enough for uh Napoleon he doesn’t he doesn’t allow massanova another either another go what is what’s his line when uh he goes back to Paris Saint John yeah he uh before he left and mercenarben made Prince of esling which is the town he defended in uh the Battle
Of aspirin essling and so when he returns Napoleon first of all it makes him wait four hours before he’ll see him and then he finally sees messena and says so Prince of esling you are no longer messena which is just a great dig on like Posh yeah yeah is if that’s your
Annual review with your boss that sounds a bit like mine to be fair yeah yeah good point I did bring it on myself you’re right so he was not supported by um his brother Marshall bessier who was in charge of the Imperial Guard Cavalry who
Massena wanted to use to kind of ice the battle and and probably would have if if bessier hadn’t said no to the request and then messena also asked um that’s he had to go get you know resupply of ammunition Cannon more cannonballs Bessie again said no said
I’m too busy so again the petty jealousies of the marshals uh did not work very well here at Puentes de Nora um after that basically Miss Santa is kind of sidelined uh Napoleon doesn’t really give him a command again he has some small like governorships of some
Towns and in France but um yeah he doesn’t really have a command after that again and he probably doesn’t want to he’s got his millions of dollars he just wants to retire in peace he supports Napoleon after his escape from Elba but again he doesn’t want to command he just wants
To sit quietly with his money unfortunately he doesn’t really get to enjoy it um his money because he passes I think in 1817. um and just he had a he had a hard life I mean yeah he made millions of dollars but he was in the saddle a lot he was on
Um fronts a lot obviously he lost and I did a Napoleon um he he worked really hard over the course of his life in the military and definitely gave a lot to France brilliant well well look I think that’s good to to wrap up Massena then we will
Move on because I know we’ve been going an hour and a half and we did say we try and keep it tight so apologies for that gents but a couple of quick questions on my Center um did he take Wellington too lightly was that part of his problem he he he
Got into the peninsula thought you know what I’m a bit knackered as we as we’ve said but uh who’s this Brit the Brits are nothing I’ve I’ve been fighting much much more worthy opponents out east was there a little bit of that do you think yeah I think probably and I think uh
Probably most of his Marshals did that and uh you know it’s famously quoted by Napoleon on the morning of the 18th of June 1815 he looks around his room of Marshalls over breakfast whilst the the anglo-allied Army are formed up ready to fight and he said and he’s having
Breakfast with him he says oh you take uh Wellington seriously because he’s been beaten uh he’s beating you before I tell you it would be nothing more than finishing this meal and I think a lot of them were turning up going okay our experience for the British during the Revolutionary War
They’re holding on these towns for the French royalists and we’re we’re beating them and we’re throwing them out and they’ve done these little Expeditions across the coast and we’re beating them and we’re throwing them out but actually you know it’s as we know time and time
Again the British can be let down by allies it could be that Land by over extension but often they’re The Thin Red Line it’s very stereotypical pulls it out the bag even when they should be defeated we said it earlier you know they should be defeated the troops hold and Wellington for many
Of his faults he has a very good eye for the ground and he’s picking battlefields that suit his army and his Anglo you know Allied Army of Spanish and Portuguese and you know he’s molding the Portuguese into an effective fighting force the Spanish are now working with him both on
The battlefield and in politics and the Guerrilla campaign so that and you know we haven’t talked about the grillers you know they wear them down the Spanish ulcer effect they’re wearing down these Marshals uh all the time when they’re off the battlefield they’re being kind
Of drained of men and that that is also going to be mentally draining that they they can’t send messages back to France without it being captured or the um you know the messengers being killed so there’s there’s a lot of elements there that would demoralize these generals or distract them on campaign
Brilliant I think that’s that’s that’s really good actually and that kind of sums up why it was so difficult to beat Wellington and the British in general even when Wellington wasn’t there in battle but John I wanted to follow up with you we’re kind of getting close to
Wrapping up and hearing your bow final thoughts on who you think was the best of these three Marshals but I wanted to ask one thing we haven’t really discussed so maybe you can just give us a sense John is how difficult was it for the marshals with Napoleon trying to
Micromanage everything from Paris presumably that made things very very tough for them yeah I did I’m glad you brought that up um you know Paris is far away from Portugal you know several took a long time for a messenger to get a horse from say Lisbon to Paris and like Marcus said
You couldn’t just send one guy because he would inevitably get caught by the gorillas and you couldn’t even send a company because it would be overwhelmed by the gorillas or a Spanish Army lurking around so he basically had to send a battalion of troops every time
You wanted to get a message to France same thing with supplies so if you needed food ammunition guns horses you had to send a battalion of troops to protect that Supply Convoy so I don’t think Napoleon fully understood how hard it was to operate in Spain it was very
Hard to forage as opposed to say Germany or Austria where you can forage and live off the land you couldn’t do that in Spain and Portugal especially with the British and Portuguese burning and destroying all the crops as they retreated so yeah I don’t think um you know Napoleon really set up any
Of these three guys for Success it was a a very very difficult place to campaign in and then my last oh sorry sorry Marcus go ahead mate sorry I was gonna say I I was going to agree you know um yeah I could talk about the uh the
Gorilla War uh three hours but the uh the other element is you see Napoleon hiring and firing you know they have a defeat do they get a chance to learn from it because they’re replaced so uh if that carries on they don’t get that experience of fighting the gorillas as
Much uh we don’t get and that’s why Sushi was mentioned a lot in the kind of the pre-chats because he’s off in the East and actually has relative success there and he’s fighting quite a different campaign he actually tries to not this this might be controversial but
Not raping and pillaging a country makes them not hate you as much um so uh he manages to win rounds and you get you get these anaphaseados which are uh the middle classes from Spain who want to kind of bring in the revolution and work uh with the
French and so he’s doing that and where are some of the others they come in they have a campaign they lose a battle they’re replaced so that experience uh you know is changing them where some of the men are out there fighting for you know nearly a decade and they’re seeing
The boss change a lot and that doesn’t give them a lot of reassurance either so uh yeah I think Napoleon’s getting too involved he’s looking he’s in the East and he’s looking to the South and then he kind of micromanaging away in Spain whereas actually if he left it it might
Have been different uh just a quick example I was reading uh marbeau’s Memoirs and he uh operated in Spanish work for several Marshals General marbeau and he said whenever I had to deliver a message or do a Supply Convoy I would go the route where there was an attack by
Gorillas the day before I would want to go that exact route because gorillas how they operated they would attack and then run away and then you know go to another area to operate now if you’re not an experienced Commander you would think well there was an attack there the day
Before I’m not going to go that way I’m going to go some other route marbeau knew from operating there that you know I’ll go wherever there was an attack the day before because the gorillas won’t be there yeah all right we were talking about it before you know he sent three Messengers
To try to get through uh actually by the time we’d Crack the Code so by the point uh we had a three times more likely uh a chance of you know capturing the the message so it’s that learning curve wasn’t given they weren’t given that chance that’s what I’m trying to say
Yeah well guys before we wrap up before we get to our our winner in inverted commas I do have one last question maybe John you can sort of take this and then maybe Marcus if you’ve got any follow-up to this um the Marshalls they all hated each
Other we’ve kind of touched on this with Fuentes day on Euro they all hated each other they all seem to do everything they could to undermine one another what’s that all about uh yeah I think I think that’s a little overblown I mean that’s an easy excuse I don’t think they
All hated each other I think they they probably all thought they were more talented than the others except for Marshall mortier who was known as the kind Marshal um I don’t I they they they could work together in fact after Wellington defeated Marmon at Salamanca salt Sushi Jordan uh actually United forces and
Actually pushed Wellington back into Portugal so they could work together when there was an immediate threat to their existence But after when things were quiet that’s when they would get selfish and get looting and kind of ignore each other and whenever of course the boss was around Napoleon it was a
Very well oiled machine I mean they destroyed Prussia in a couple weeks uh they beat the austrians how many times when Napoleon was around so they could work together a lot of them did work together for many years um I think the not working together is a
Bit overblown but uh in Spain it is it is documented that there were some arguments and there were some um lack of cooperation amongst the marshals brilliant well look we’re getting to the point oh sorry Marcus yeah go ahead no I was going to say can we blame Napoleon for that
Um mostly because I want to um but also uh because you know he’s handing out these titles uh he’s handing out wealth he’s handing out uh palaces and basically countries princetons uh if they are successful so if you’re getting you know rewards based upon success you’re wanting to outshine the others
And write to your successes and build it up potentially is is one way I sometimes view it rather than go look it’s kind of like look look what I did rather than kind of oh look we all did a good job Napoleon the Marshalls that’s great I’ve never heard that before
Um no I mean they are there are some really competent commanders in there so yeah I certainly like some of the marshes more than I like yeah brilliant well look guys I think we’re gonna wrap up I want to hear in fact I’ve got I’ve got a perfect uh
Sound effect for this hold on let me see if I can hear it and at the end of this as it finishes John I’d like you to name who you think was the best French Marshal in the peninsula War let’s go for it oh here it comes okay the best French martial
Independence the war was Marshall messena yay whoa hold on hold on I think we need a bit of uh oh no wrong wrong one there we go there you are there you are and Ah that’s amazing and I and I know people are going to disagree with me but
I I am not a military tactician or expert but Wellington himself said it that messena was the best one and I’ll just go with the Duke of Wellington for being my eyes and ears on the ground for for that assessment I will say salt is number two and Marmont
Is number three uh Marcus what do you think yes so if I can go slightly off menu I’ll probably actually say it is sushi but it doesn’t face Wellington then nay also uh he actually doesn’t do too badly uh and then and then I’ll say um as well so
Um sorry massano as well sorry as well so um it’s late um so yeah I have to agree you know Massena and uh the to back it off the The Duke one it’s in quote uh was they well there’s two quotes one says you kept me awake at night uh he was kept
Awake at night by Massena but I couldn’t find the original source for that uh the original source that I’ve got was uh matina said uh to Wellington where you owe me a meal when they met because he’d been starved outside of um Portugal and Wellington says no you kept me
Um in trouble time so you owe me you can buy me a meal instead basically so uh you know there’s that kind of like keeping him in angst doesn’t know where he’s going to stand so like you said Wellington’s got those eyes on it and and he thought it was Massena
Uh he also you know he doesn’t underestimate uh nay and I’m kind of discounting sushe because he’s not facing Wellington directly it’s part of the wider campaign so that’s the technicality we park in nay uh is an interesting character and actually does quite well but doesn’t have that
Independent command facing him as well so yeah I I’m gonna I’m gonna back you up Massena Massena uh the champion tonight thanks fantastic well I think that deserves one of these [Applause] I’m getting really carried away with these sound effects aren’t I I’m quite enjoying this
Well guys can I just say thank you to both of you I want to say thank you to everybody who’s watched commented laughed at our silly jokes I hope you’ve been well my silly jokes really no one else has made silly jokes except me but I’ve enjoyed it
Um right guys so thank you very much I just want to say oh no cheers John Sir John just quickly for anyone who’s just joining us now tell them how they can see and listen and get in touch with you and watch your podcast and all that fun stuff
Yeah so just the podcast is called Generals in Napoleon anywhere podcaster heard you know Apple podcast Google Spotify and it’s just each episode we focus on a different biography of a different General and it’s not just Napoleon’s armies we do British generals Prussian generals Russian generals Spanish generals so if you’re interested
In the period you want to learn about the different uh Army commanders uh we even do captains uh I think I was talking about doing some of Napoleon’s families brothers and sisters we’ve done Kings so if you’re interested in the period uh please check out generals and Napoleon and follow us on
Twitter at Annapolis brilliant and then Marcus uh the the goat of British Peninsula War military history can you can you uh oh wrong one can you give us a little bit of information about you and how people can get hold of you and keep in touch if they want to
That’s that’s overly kind um yeah so I appear on other people’s podcasts and things uh as we’re saying so I’m on radical History Podcast I’m on General Zen Napoleon so check out uh both of those ones both uh yeah Spotify is a good one and uh YouTube and then uh
On Twitter as M crib history uh I have my own website Duke of wellington.org uh find me there find me any of those I do have a Facebook thing if I can’t remember it and happy to answer questions and hopefully see you on a podcast or speak to you about
Battlefield tour in the future looking forward to getting back up to water losing brilliant and guys uh for anyone who follows the channel Friday 6 p.m is normally when I release a new video These lives I’m hoping to make sort of Fairly regular thing uh so whenever I
Get time I’ll do more of these so do keep in touch let me know I’m also on Twitter at Redcoat history not a regular I’m not not like these chaps who are on it a bit more than me I also have an Instagram account again not on it that
Much but it’s at Redcoat history this Friday got a great video coming out 6 p.m UK time all about Britain’s foot guard regiments it’s kind of asking are they are they chocolate soldiers or are they actually combat troops you and I already know the answer to that but I
Think it might be of interest to some people especially our cousins from across the pond uh John who might not know that actually actually these are very experienced combat troops with a fantastic history so that’s what we’re going to be looking at this Friday so I
Will just bring the two guys up to wave goodbye hold on here we go so let’s finish thank you very much gents that was absolutely brilliant thank you so much for having me having us cheers guys thank you
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