Welcome to the by way of commandment podcast a podcast dedicated to the study of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the finer points of his Doctrine join us as we study the gospel through the scriptures and standard works of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints Welcome back to the channel everyone I’m your host Jacob Ryder and today I have a very special guest on with me Hayden Carroll now for the listeners um who have been watching this channel for any length of time you know this face you know Hayden Carroll because many of you also follow
The thoughtful Faith Channel as well and you’ve seen Hayden and Jacob and another a number of other people um talk about a various uh different topics uh related to The Gospel of Jesus Christ um I became aware of you a couple years ago on on the thoughtful Faith Channel
Um you had on a number of guests um one of my favorite guests that I’ve had on the channel um that you guys have interviewed is Blake Osler um very interesting guy very intelligent um uh I’ve read his books um and so that was I think my introduction to who you
Guys were uh at the time that was maybe a year or two ago now and then since then I’ve seen you pop up on another other channels as well um some Latter-Day Saint uh channels or adjacent and then some atheist channels as well kind of giving your take on a number of topics
Um so I’m excited to have you here yeah thanks for having me it’s funny that you mentioned Blake Osler um Jacob and I are going to be filming an episode tomorrow debating not a formal debate but kind of debating Lake osler’s uh what does he call it
Um the infinite regress model versus the um monarchical the monotheism I think is what he calls it yeah monarchical monotheism yeah yeah so Jacob’s gonna take that side I’m gonna take the infinite regress side so anyway Blake officer has been a great influence on us
It’s been fun to chat yeah and I I love that interview with you because um you guys had kind of um it’s it’s fun to watch that interview because you can kind of see uh you and Jacob asking questions but also kind of thinking in real time
About some of the things that are said in that in that conversation and I know um I know in that interview um Blake threw a couple things out there that are um that made you question a couple things and you had some great responses and questions in return as well and so
That was a good uh just a really good conversation so yeah we’ll hash out that topic tomorrow and I’m hoping it’ll be posted sometime soon awesome looking forward to it um well for the listeners uh you’re probably wondering what exactly we’re going to talk about um Hayden you had mentioned uh somewhere
Probably another podcast or somewhere that uh you are also a Freemason um on top of an active believing member of the church and so I thought that this would be a really interesting opportunity to dive into Freemasonry and its connections to the church uh maybe give a little overview of some of the
History of Freemasonry in the church and how they’ve been intertwined in the past and um and but first I kind of wanted to get into your story a bit how did you become a Freemason yeah it’s a great question so I’m from Arizona in the greater Phoenix area and
I served a mission in Salt Lake City Utah from 2013 to 2015. and when I was there I remember at least one guy in particular there may have been a few others but one guy in particular we met just walking through an apartment complex who was an act of Latter-day
Saint who was also Freemason and I didn’t really know what that was at age 18 or 19. but that was my kind of my first interaction with the Mason in real life and we talked with him for a few minutes and then we went on our way
Um he I don’t think he was actually in one of our words we were in the in the young adult uh steak at that point so we didn’t have an interaction with this guy he was a little bit older so anyway um I had a mission companion as well
Elder Harwood you may have seen Jacobs actually interviewed him Timber harword he oversees the beacon Ministry Pember was one of my mission companions for transfer and uh he although he wasn’t a Mason he knew a lot more than I did about Freemasonry a little bit of the history and for him
And I talked about it for a little bit and then when I got home uh from the mission I really didn’t think of it much until I went to college and as I engaged with you know the faithful and the Don you know this at College there were many
Times in person and online where people would bring up Freemasonry and the church and Joseph Smith and I said hey I you know I know I met somebody who was a mason in the Latter-Day Saint and so I was just curious and so I called up the
Other Harvard and I said hey uh I don’t I know you knew a little bit about masonry but did you join or how do I look into this and he said although I haven’t joined the easiest thing you could do is just look up their number if
They have a lodge in your town which they did in Cedar City Southern Utah and he said call up the secretary and tell him you’re interested in learning and they probably will invite you to come to the lodge and learn more so that’s what I did
Um I kind of my mindset was that if I wanted right because a lot of people critique the church and Joseph regarding stealing the temple endowment and so I wanted to know I wanted to know for myself like how similar is the temple endowment with these Freemason rituals
And I know you can look it up online and things like that but I figured the best way and really the only real way for me to know for myself is to Simply join them so that’s what I ended up doing I ended up meeting with them for about six
Months over several times a week for six months and then petition a lodge and and was uh received my three degrees the Entered Apprentice the fell craft and the Master Mason degrees so yeah that’s one of my introduction to it yeah so this is across a six-month
Span that you were meeting with them pretty regularly um what what did those meetings look like what what exactly was discussed I mean share whatever you’re willing to share but um what does that look like well those meetings weren’t weren’t their stated meetings they weren’t formal in any way they’re very informal
Um The Lodge in Cedar City is is a pretty good sized Lodge it has an upstairs and a basement and so or a ground level in a basement and so what they would do is on Tuesdays and Thursday nights and I think they still
Do it to this day is they just meet up there and they hang out and they talk and they play board games and they drink their coffee and they have drinks for people who show up right they offered me water they knew I was allowed to be
Saying or they offered me soda or whatever it may be but that that six-month period the reason that it was exactly six months is in order to petition a lodge you have to know someone from that Lodge for at least six months so that they can sign your
Petition they have to say I know this person and basically they’re worthy to become a Freemason and so that was kind of a vetting process and then I’m sure they’d do a background check on you and they kind of just see are you a good fit are you are you serious are you
Dedicated and so after six months of going once or twice a week every week from I’m trying to think it was probably uh I think maybe 2016 end of 2016 to beginning of 2017. um I was meeting with them and then I think I received my first degree Entered
Apprentice in March of 2017 if I remember correctly so yeah those those meetings are just very informal and I could ask as many questions as I wanted and they would share what they could and yeah it was really fun I played a lot of Monopoly played a lot of Battleship you
Know it was just hanging out and chatting with them they’re really nice kind of just like a Elders Quorum get together yeah it was like a game night but yeah you know there wasn’t always board games but a lot of the times they had them and just for fun to pass the
Time and it was kind of an open house that’s kind of their invitation if you want to come learn more we’re always here they went okay this week and they’re pretty open about just whatever you wanted to ask or whatever they’d be happy to talk yeah at least in the jurisdiction of
Utah they can share a lot of things and they can take you in the lodge room and I have some pictures I can show you um they’re kind of similar to Latter-day Saints in the endowment in that they make specific O’s to not share specific things regarding signs names tokens
Passwords things like that but outside of that um they can share quite a bit similar to how we can in the endowment in the right setting and for the right purpose sure um so during this time that you’re kind of um petitioning the lodge and you’re getting ready to enter your first degree
Did you have any pushback from like friends or family of like what do you what are you doing um yes uh one person in particular really good friend of mine up in Salt Lake was very um I respect him a lot he’s a good
Friend of mine to this day but him and I have had some disagreements on whether or not it’s appropriate for Latter-Day Saint to be engaged in what he sees as a secret combination right a place where you go to make secret O’s outside of the temple like that’s in his mind that’s
Not appropriate um and a lot of Latter-day Saints feel that way and there’s a lot of propaganda against the the Freemasons regarding devil worship and you know taking over the world and the Illuminati and I mean you know how Hollywood kind of portrays sure well and and a lot of those types
Of arguments I hear most often from um well well-meaning well-intentioned um people particularly I think this is a really popular amongst like Protestant evangelicals and I I understand why a Latter-Day Saint might have some reservations if they’re not as well informed like like I am not informed super unreally anything
To do with Freemasonry and so you might have some reservations but there is a history between Freemasonry and the church that connects Us in some way whereas most Protestant evangelicals have no understanding whatsoever about Freemasonry they see certain aspects of it and symbology and things like that that they
Would consider right in line with what you just said it’s the secret combinations though they wouldn’t call it that but a lot of that kind of stuff Illuminati related stuff and so um I hear that quite a bit from a lot of people especially online it’s everywhere
Yeah you know um as a Latter-day Saint as a as a covenant-bound Latter-Day Saint disciple of Christ my loyalty early lies with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints one of the reasons I’ve remained a Mason a Freemason is because the church has come out in the past two or three years
Explicitly saying that members of the church that they do not bar or prevent Latter-Day Saints from becoming Freemasons if president Nelson came out tomorrow and made an announcement and said if you’re Latter-Day singing an amazing and you need to resign for the formations I would resign immediately
Um there’s no question about that but because they have explicitly said it’s okay um I don’t see any issues there I mean we can talk about I’m sure we’ll get into the history of Joseph Joseph and Joseph Smith Senior and Hiram and Brigham and John Taylor and Wilford
Woodruff they were all free basins so for a Latter-Day Saint to turn around and say it’s of the devil doesn’t really make much sense they’re probably speaking out of ignorance um that they just don’t know kind of like you said it’s kind of a fear of the unknown yeah yeah for sure um
So what what exactly can you tell me about how um how masonry functions what what it’s what its goals are what what exactly is it because I you can go online you can read a whole number of different things um but I think just generally speaking
The best way that I’ve I’ve managed to um conceptualize what it is at its core is kind of a fraternity it’s a Brotherhood of of like-minded individuals that want to uh a strong Brotherhood and help each other um is that kind of is that what is it yeah yeah it’s a great
Question I actually have a slide that I can show you it’s okay if I share my screen yeah of course um as I’ve as I’ve as I told you before the show started we as I’ve been invited to speak on this topic in different forums and venues I’ve created a little
PowerPoint that that will answer a lot of your questions and I’d rather just pull it up because it’ll give it to you more straightforward than I can uh probably off the cuff tell me if you can you can see that did you see that okay so I can just go through the points
Really quick and it’s really self-explanatory what is Freemasonry it’s a maternal organization like you said with its purpose focused on one service to Brotherhood Unity Community camaraderie just like you said and number three the moral self-improvement of its members so even up front you see a little bit of overlap in Purpose with
The church right we see each of those three in the church now one thing that separates cremation from the LDS church is that Freemasonry makes no claims of authority and it makes no claims of offering salvation it’s uh it’s a very they may talk about The Ether and they
May talk about the Divine things but they’re not saying you must join us in order to obtain salvation or anything like that so kind of served a different purpose a little bit of overlap so it within within uh Freemasonry there’s many different people from different backgrounds who uh who can join it’s not
As far as I understand there’s no um there’s nothing barring somebody from joining based on uh they’re let’s say religious beliefs or something like that is that is that accurate is there any is there any sort of um belief or system of practice or anything that would kind of bar somebody
From entering Freemasonry yes atheism they don’t allow um anyone who doesn’t believe in a in a God or higher power and that’s I think that’s actually on this list that we’ll see oh okay cool um and kind of a side note kind of on the same topic in regards to criteria
For joining uh most obviously Freemasons and kind of the more mainstream Freemasonry is men’s only there are um over the years that have popped up women’s only organizations um I’m not super familiar with them I I haven’t reached out to them I don’t know much about them I think the main one is
Called uh the northern star or the Eastern Star it’s been forever since I’ve thought about it but if your viewers are interested in a woman’s illegal search one of those terms and you’ll probably find something on it number two it teaches its members the principles of morality and personal progression and
Growth through symbols and allegory which we see Temple overlap there a little bit Freemasonry has no missionary program I put this on there because it’s a common misconception that you have to be invited right you have to be sought out and they have to you know they have to
Watch you and then they come in and they give you a personal invitation and it’s actually the exact opposite we’re not allowed to proselyte um we can talk about it a lot a lot right if you want to get a Freemason talking just ask them about the lodge
And about that he’ll talk to you about it but I’m not going to approach you or anybody else and say hey I think you should join um it’ll it’ll have to be the opposite it would be you coming to me saying how do I join it and I could tell you about it
Uh you mentioned this or I mentioned Authority members must not be atheistic and it retains a theme of privacy or the Freemasons don’t have a problem I know a lot of Lottery Saints don’t like to use the word secret to describe the temple but Freemasons would use the word Secret
Uh private or secret regarding its rituals rights and passages so in a nutshell that’s kind of what we’re what we’re dealing with here I hope that does that answer your question a little bit yeah yeah absolutely um so maybe this is on the slides and I’m jumping the gun but
Um can you kind of break down like the different degrees and and what that actually means like what how did how do you progress through those and what does that look like yeah let me show you here it’s a good slide so I hope you hope your viewers can see
It on the left side there’s a little chart somebody made I just got it off Google but it’s really well made um of the different degrees and it looks confusing but it’s actually not I can kind of explain it to you I put Joseph on there because one of the most common
Misconceptions about Joseph and his relationship to Freemasonry is that he became a 33rd degree uh Mason in the Scottish Rite which I can talk about a second but but that’s actually um as far as I understand not true Joseph uh is the record show only progressed to be a mastermates and they
Needed it very quickly I think it was the governor of Illinois who was or it was the Grand Master of Illinois who was running for governor of the state who uh invited Joseph and Hiram to uh become Master Masons on site is kind of the term so they progress very quickly
Within days from the first second and third degrees if you look on the bottom there underneath those symbols you have the Entered Apprentice and it says blue Lodge on the bottom blue luck makes is the three main degrees so when you hear someone say that they’re a Master Mason
They’re talking about first second and third degree within blue launch masonry now once you receive your third degree Master Mason uh the sublime degree of Master Mason you’re able to be involved with other like stub or side organizations to masonry and progress in other degrees in those organizations so
On the left we have a York right and you might see towards the top of the left on the top of that Compass to the left of that you see order of the Knights Templar you see that yeah um that may sound familiar right anciently but more modernly these are
Different Masonic organizations that basically have basically have built off of blue Lodge masonry and although the numbers get higher for degrees the common masturbation they don’t see we don’t see those degrees as high it’s more of a vertical move right but the highest degree of a mason is the third degree Master medicine
Um although you can progress through these other rights on the right is the Scottish Rite um and Cedar City I think there is I think they offer both of those maybe the York right it’s been a while um since I’ve talked with those Brethren I guess I should I should let you guys
Know that although I currently let me show you my my news card actually this is the right one this is 20 23. yeah so you can look on here I don’t know if you can see it very well it’s like my temple recommend basically for the Masonic Lodge you get into any
Lodge in the world with this thing but uh what I joined for masonry um I was in college and I had I was getting married I got raised to the third degree in October of 2017 and then I got married in December of that year
And then by May me and my wife moved down to Arizona and so I still associated with that Lodge in Cedar City I still get their emails every week I get the realm all gmails every week or whenever they say I just got one today um they keep constant communication but
I have not yet affiliated with a lodge down here and we’ve been here for about five years um so anyway I don’t know my point in saying that is I don’t um not every single Lodge offers these degrees but where it’s available uh Master Mason 10 kind of petition or or
Seek out those extra degrees interesting so there’s there’s quite a bit on the Scottish right side yeah yeah there is and and unfortunately I can’t tell you much about it because I don’t know how much about it because I’m not one right foreign to me is the symbology here
Um on the York right side obviously I think people would recognize the name Knight’s Templar um and the symbology there you have a cross there the order of the Red Cross um and then on the Scottish Rite side I see a number of uh Jewish or Hebrew symbols as well
Yeah so there seems to be quite a diverse uh range of at least symbology in in the case of these various organizations oh absolutely yeah I mean the whole organization is built around symbols so absolutely so can you kind of explain a little bit of the the general history of Freemasonry
And is there because I I hear a lot of things particularly online as I try to read up on some of the stuff um there seems to be quite a few different opposing voices in how and where Freemasonry really got its start um and what that would have looked like
Compared to let’s say you know the mid-1800s uh at the time that Joseph Smith and the church would have become acquainted with it actually I have a slap for that let me scroll down here a little bit right here so so this is really cool because when you start asking questions
Like this uh this is where it becomes really intriguing for a Latter-Day Saint to consider the origin um of Freemasonry where it came from and when it started and then figure out how that or understand how that overlapped with our Temple endowment right so um and I’ll kind of explain what I’m
Talking about here so here are the earliest uh Masonic minutes that we have which I’ll show you here in a second where they were but these are dated July 31st 1599 and this must be in some sort of like Gaelic because they were found at the lodge of Edinburgh I’m not sure if
I’m saying that correctly but Mary’s Chapel number one in Scotland in the 1400s or started in the 1400s these um notes are from 15.99 obviously but most I think most people who most Scholars who look into this um understand that this Chapel or this uh Lodge which started sometime in the
1400s and it’s it’s personally my belief and we can debate this but uh that masonry as we know it in the masonry all those probably evolved but that Joseph knew that we know today it was probably started here regardless of the lore and the stories that they tell about Solomon’s Temple
And that they use in their rituals um and we can talk about that but that’s in in a simple way to say that I personally believe that masonry started in 1400s and probably in Scotland which is which is actually really cool for Latter-Day Saints because the origins of their ritual overlap with the
Origins of our ritual anyway yeah that’s about it yeah no that’s really interesting um you mentioned kind of the lore surrounding the history of masonry has a lot to do with Solomon’s Temple and and all of that um did you encounter a lot of that kind
Of lore and stuff as you were getting into this yourself uh in the degrees yes the the degrees the first second and third degrees are ultimately centered around a story about a man named Hyrum who was a Mason who worked on Solomon’s Temple and you kind
Of learned his story uh and there’s a story that goes behind it that they teach principles of morality and of divine living and things like that so yeah it’s it’s very I didn’t learn before I entered the first degree but in the first degree it’s very yeah and I
Can kind of show you here let me show you some pictures here is a well I can show you this Lodge here is the Grand Lodge of Utah which is on I think it’s South Temple and State Street in downtown Salt Lake this is right where I serve my mission
Uh here is the inside of a lodge this is not the inside of a selling student Lodge I couldn’t find a good picture of it but this is essentially what a traditional Masonic Lodge at least in the United States probably in Europe as well and around the world
Um but at least in the United States what it would look like and on the left side you can kind of see the visual and then on the right side you can kind of see a a blueprint version and in the East is where the worshipful master sits he’s kind of like the
President and then across from him is what we call the senior Warden he’s kind of like the first counselor in a way and then to the South we have the junior Warden and they are positioned uh in in those directions in those cardinal directions for a
Purpose that have to do with the uh rituals and then every other person who’s involved uh who has a position will sit in their designated spot and then on the sides you kind of have the pews where the extra members would sit um and then uh here let me go to this
One here’s a depiction of a degree you can see the initiate on the left with his escort he’s blindfolded his knee is exposed and uh his Garb is over the right shoulder and again you probably see and we’ll probably get into some some Latter-Day Saint you know overlap
There but essentially uh then the brothers you see the brothers in the uh in their aprons I actually wanted to show you you’d be okay with it when you uh receive your degrees they actually give you an apron and they have it in this tube uh kind of a fun fact here is
That just like Latter-Day Saints would be buried in their Temple robes with their Temple apron uh it’s traditional for a Freemason to be buried with when they die with their uh Masonic apron so I can I can show you let me open this up okay it’s very basic it’s similar the
Ones you see in the picture and essentially something that’s really cool about this is and it’s kind of it was rolled up so it’s kind of but it’s supposed to be down like that the way that you wear your apron uh identifies you in the story and in in the lodge uh
The story of Solomon’s Temple and in the lodge base based on how you wear your apron it identifies you as as a different degree so anyway that’s just kind of cool yeah so this will be buried with me I’m not going to put it on probably when I
Die I’ll be wearing my temple where it helps but I’ll I’ll ask my wife or whoever will put this in my in my comfort when I die so yeah that’s some of the symbols in there um so we can get into this a little bit more
Um later but I wanted to get into um this the history between Latter-Day Saints and Freemasonry and um A lot’s been said um about the the rituals and and the symbology and things that are used in in masonry that were adopted by Joseph and the Brethren uh at the time that Joseph was
Essentially putting together what would eventually become the endowment of the Temple but I wanted to ask um knowing some of this history um between the connection between Latter-Day Saints and Freemasons there’s there’s a lot of people we already talked about that um have some negative feelings towards Freemasonry
Um for various reasons some of them are rather benign and others are a little bit more malicious and and um thoughts of uh Freemasonry as a satanic cult or or something of that nature I’m curious to know um for for you who as you have a foot in both worlds
Um do Freemasons also kind of get some of that from the Latter-Day Saint side where it’s like a a Freemason might have someone um bring up you know the connection between masonry and the Mormons as kind of a negative connotation like how could you join Freemasonry they were connected to
Mormonism like is is there any sort of anything like that that you’ve encountered are you how many understand are you asking like a negative feeling from the Freemasons about Latter-day Saints yeah or just even um as we talked about earlier like um when you looked into joining Freemasonry
You had a friend and those around you who may have had some questions or reservation about you joining um is there any sort of feelings that are similar to that from the Freemasonry side about Latter-day Saints okay um that’s a great question I think in
The past yes I have not um I mean because I joined a lot in southern Utah most of the guys were inactive Latter-Day Saints and they didn’t Harbor any harsh feelings towards the church in any way um obviously back in the day um and I can show you I have some slides
On this like the early uh Latter-Day Saints were often persecuted because the Freemasons felt that they were that Joseph was revealing their their ritual and that he was initiating women and and they had a problem with that right um there was a time in Utah where the uh
The grand law the the the Master over the Grand Lodge over the whole jurisdiction of Utah as far as I understand someone may be able to correct me on this but as far as I understand there was a falling out between Brigham Young and that Grand
Lodge master and so uh that Lodge barred Latter-Day Saints from joining for many years I forget it was before Brigham died so it was like 1870s probably until like the 1970s or around there where a Latter-Day Saints were not allowed to join the lodge in Salt Lake City
Because they had heart feelings towards each other but in today’s world maybe I mean maybe on the East Coast maybe in Missouri maybe down there where people maybe already have harsh feelings towards the Latter-Day Saints um you may find some overlap of Freemasons feeling the same way but not really over here anyway
Okay um so at the time that um Brigham is having some he’s having some of those issues with Freemasonry at the time you know this is like 18 what 1870s um is is this kind of around the same time that uh the church itself kind of um barred its members from becoming
Freemasons or is that am I conflating two different times no it’s actually interesting as far as I understand uh the Latter-Day Saints were first prohibited from joining the information Lodge and then this may not be totally accurate but as far as I understand Brigham kind of basically said okay
We’re gonna do the same thing no later gray Saints are going to be joining your Lodge and it’s like okay I’m like they already bought us so it doesn’t really do anything but yeah they’re like I said there’s a falling out and so there was probably some Latter-Day Saints and by
The way Brigham Young was a was a Freemason but also uh John Taylor Wilfred Woodruff from Lorenzo Snow they were all Freemasons and so I don’t know the intricacies of the detail of that but there definitely was a time maybe even after Brigham died I’m not sure of when Latter-Day Saints started to
Started to push away the idea of Freemason or it started to be fizzled out even though it was still prominent amongst early church leaders and members but yeah probably about the same time okay I I know um because even talking to like um my parents and their Generation
Um they grew up in an era where um it was kind of taboo to talk about Freemasonry and I believe at the time this is probably you know 70s 80s um I I might be wrong but I believe at the time the church had uh still
Um kind of I don’t know if it was official or not but that still sort of barred its members from joining Freemasonry so I think the um I think that’s been rescinded um and obviously in recent years it’s um it’s become much less Taboo it’s become more open I know there’s been
Some statements on that over the last few years as well um but I know for uh for quite a long period of time it seemed like Latter-Day Saints were to have no connection with Freemasonry yeah there may have been I don’t know of any official release from the church or
From first presidency that says you know we do not join the Freemasons um but I think culturally that was the position for sure maybe I mean this may be a little bit different but kind of like the church’s stance on caffeine you know there were people talking about it
But there was no there’s not ever as I understand it official announcement to say we do not drink caffeine it kind of was just expected and then in recent years Church uh they’d come out and explicitly said that they don’t bar their members from caffeine same thing
With fruit masonry um but the statement that I’m talking about it wasn’t a written statement it was actually in a video of the church producing release on their website called it was there now you know um series it’s like a few minutes long and give some ideas or some Basics about it
You may have seen it but they explicitly say that it’s members are not prohibited from Germany okay no that that’s good so this is probably most likely a cultural thing um would you would you think that that would have more to do with the the the nature of the rituals and the
Symbology being similar that that uh that joining uh Freemasonry um would put you in a position in which you’re you are encountering similar rituals signs tokens names Etc um in a in a setting other than what the church had intended oh absolutely yeah and we know that that
Was part of it because even the rest in the last couple years you’d have other Bednar I think two or three years ago explicitly stating in a conference talk that there are two general guidelines for talking about the temple and it’s not talking about the things you’ve explicitly coveted to not reveal the
Name signs and tokens um and then always if you’re gonna share anything outside of that doing it in a place that’s appropriate for learning uh for Education right because in the Seminary cluster room I teach my kids as much as I can appropriately about the temple endowment and the church has
Reduced so has the church has produced so many um different resources to talk about the covenants we make there right because when I went through the temple in 2013 I didn’t know what Covenant is I was going to make and now on the website it talks about obedience and sacrifice and all
The gospel Chastity consecration um the church is becoming more open although not revealing those specific things we covered it not too obviously right um I I I’ve had this conversation a lot um with people particularly um you know family members um so I went through the temple in 2010 um
Before I served my mission from 2010 to 2012. and I remember taking the temple prep course which is I I can’t remember I think it was like six weeks of uh meeting up and and discussing certain things they had a pamphlet that you’d kind of go through but I remember
Feeling like that didn’t really tell me much it didn’t explain much of anything and I don’t even remember the uh the main covenants um being necessarily at the Forefront of those discussions because I think culturally we were afraid to share anything about it yeah so so going backward so yeah so going
Backward you know my parents generation and older um there’s an even greater level of um desire to keep things secret and Under Wraps I know you mentioned we don’t like to use the word Secret um in the church it is though but that’s that’s essentially what it is and so uh
Regardless of how sacred some aspects of uh the rituals and things are we kept it pretty under wraps and I think it’s led to a lot of people and and you and I are in the same uh same uh General um age demographic do you feel like
Do you feel like kids today are aging younger are being exposed more to the uh are they getting more of the Straight Talk of like the covenants what’s happening in the temple and things like that is it do you see it being much more open because I know the church has made
Quite a bit of effort in the last few years to produce materials to help kind of um guide those discussions in a Faithful Way but at the same time I feel like there’s still a lot of this air of secrecy yeah I think the older generation May
Struggle with it but I hope so I hope the churches and they are right I know that uh starting in January everyone as the church produces its new Seminary curriculum for the Book of Mormon they have included what they call Life help lessons which is on top of uh teaching
The Book of Mormon they’re going to be teaching more relevant not not necessarily more relevant but like not um in the scripture block not chronologically studying the scriptures it’s going to be topics such as uh self-reliance and Mission prep and Temple prep is one of those and I have
No doubt I haven’t seen the curriculum yet but I have no doubt that they’re going to be sharing more than any other generation has had access to and we have access to it already but I’m talking about like the youth today like ages 14 to 18 they’re going to be getting if
They’re in seminary a standardized uh curriculum that talks about the temple more deeply than we ever have which I think is so awesome considering especially when I said in that past conference about we he almost says we should we should talk about it more appropriately uh without revealing those those key things
Yeah it’s it’s interesting because I even go back to um there’s a number of different conference talks um from um president Ezra Taft Benson has a conference talk and then there’s another one from the 80s as well in which there are certain aspects of the temple um that are explicitly mentioned in a
General conference talk by uh president of the church or corner of the 12 member and it what’s so strange is how I can bring those quotes up to my parents or someone in that General age uh demographic and I will get mixed reactions of like well president Benson shouldn’t
Have said that in general conference like that’s that’s not okay he shouldn’t have done that and then like they’re the Arbiter of what we should be able to share right so I just find it very interesting but I I do hope that uh this younger generation now and in the future
Will be much more um much more open to discussing the things that we’re able to discuss in a in a Faithful Way and that it will lead to more faithful discussion about the temple that will hopefully um hopefully prevent people from feeling so out of the loop when they go through
The temple for the first time um I I can count a number of people that I know who go through the temple and it’s such a such a very different experience than I think what they were expecting and some of it they didn’t know what to make
Of it and it it just leads to a bit of a bad experience um in some aspect that they have a hard time um going back and um and and I had a very very different experience or I loved the temple the first time I went but I also had Parents
Um who were a little bit more open to discussing certain things and so even like for example we won’t we won’t explicitly discuss certain signs and tokens and things like that outside of the temple um just like you would in in Freemasonry either but um I knew of certain penalties and
Things that were a part of the uh the endowment ceremony during the time that my parents um were newly married or going on missions and going through the temple um that we don’t have as part of the ceremony today and so there are certain aspects of the temple that they were a
Little bit more open with and saying like this is kind of our experience um let’s share and talk about certain things and so um clothing is a big it’s a major aspect of the ceremony and it has very strong symbology and um they were willing to talk about some of
Those things more so I think by the time I got to the temple I was already kind of looking for those things to to latch onto and to see okay now that I’m here in the temple experiencing this I I want the full experience uh and and the full context around these
Concepts and these uh symbols and and things and so I I feel like I had a very very good experience with a temple that many people don’t have and I’m hoping that changes in the future yeah you know one thing I like to tell my students especially my seniors you
Know come May when they’re about to graduate you know they’re eligible to enter the temple the day after graduation uh regardless if they’re serving a mission or getting married or whatever if they plan it ahead of time you know their brothers can get ordained and the
Sisters can they can set a date to go getting down one of the things I like to tell them and you know as we’ve been talking throughout the year I try to share these things with them one of the last things I like to tell them is look
When you go get in doubt if you’re expecting anything other than an Ancient Ancient ritual you’re going to be sorely disappointed and maybe a little freaked out because what we do in the temple is not it’s not a 2023 experience it’s an Adam and Eve experience you know six
Thousand years ago or however long ago they lived right and so um anyway this might be a good time can I actually show you another slide yeah of course um I don’t I don’t want to derail you but I think this is uh really helpful for Latter-Day Saints to see
This is uh you can find this on Google this is a a this is not LDS drawn by the way this is actually I don’t know maybe this is Jewish uh artist but this is somebody who is put together um using the Old Testament what in a
Jewish high priest would look like when they especially when they go into the holy of holy here to into the temple in the Old Testament and so as you look at that as the lottery Saint um the first thing that stands out to me is the Hat
Right when I saw this I’m like okay now that makes sense why our hats look like Baker’s hats you know that was my first impression when I go into the temple and I’m like what are these weird hats we’re wearing but it’s symbolic of a crown
Right and it’s similar to what a high priest with the Jewish priest would wear when he went to the temple um when I share this presentation usually I just highlight this one the e-flaughter fought is an apron like garment held together by a girl fasting at the front so so if anyone’s watching
This this Lottery same has been endowed and you also realize the bare feet there was a time a few years ago where we used to take off our shoes as part of the temple when you when you switch when you change the shoulder which we don’t do
Anymore but there’s when you go through the temple endowment realize that your clothing is very symbolic and it’s not something that Joseph Smith just made up it’s not just because he thought it looked cool it had ancient Origins as found in the Old Testament right when you go through the the initiatory you
Learn that you know the Lord said take Aaron his sons before the Tabernacle the congregation of the temple in the wash an annoyed to him and sanctify them and put upon them the holy garment like these are Old Testament rituals that uh the church is I think it’s pretty open
About that we just have to be willing to look for it um yeah the origin of everything we do in the temple is ancient yeah and I think this is um this is one of those points um where different ideas get conflated um when when we’re talking about uh ritual and
Um the the different uh motifs and things that occur um that are similar between masonry and uh the church and the temple endowment um there’s there’s a lot of conversation around how much of masonry is um is ancient in in origin or ancient in at least
Um uh Motif and and uh symbol and all that and how much of it was just kind of a a modern take on uh on on a Mythos or a story um and using symbology to kind of play out that story in within the ritual and then you take
That into the temple endowment setting where the entire story uh starts off with the creation and Adam and Eve and placing ourselves in in sort of their position it’s a very ancient story and so there’s some uh conflation and some even some contention from people in trying to determine
Specifically what aspects of the temple endowment or even the the Mason ritual is actually uh or is has anything to do with anything of ancient origin and how much of it is just things that were put together much much later or even contemporary to Joseph and the church putting together the endowment
And you look at a slide like this um which I love I’ve used this picture before um in explaining some of the the the similarities in clothing and this very clearly is Old Testament uh clothing Old Testament um language you go to Exodus and even Leviticus and stuff where it has or
Deuteronomy I mean where it has specific laws and things surrounding what the priests were to do how they were to behave and and how what they were to wear and all these different things that went into their service as uh as priesthood bearers essentially these are very ancient Concepts uh just
Brought into a modern uh ceremony yes um Let me let me show you this might be a good time to go here uh uh um if you’d be okay I think this this would be good ways to talk about ancient things um so I I am one there may be Freemasons
Around the world who believe that Freemason Freemasonry what we have today was actually what happened here and and you know the secret Guild that they had back then which very well may be true I don’t think the Freemason we have today was was what actually was happening back
Then although it could have been I’m more of the position kind of like I said before that in the 1400s you know in the 15th century that there was a group of individuals who got together and said hey there’s some really awesome symbolic things that we can learn from the trade
Of stone masonry and let’s take um so so kind of here’s the Lord let me let me step back for a second the lower Freemasonry is that the temple almond simple that was built and have another slide here that as they crafted the stones or the ashlers to be put into
The temple you kind of see those bricks uh those stones had to be cut so perfectly that the stone masons the operative Masons is what we call them that that cut the stones that the stones had to be so perfectly cut that it was as if the hand of God himself had cut
The stone and not until then could it be put to the Temple and so uh the idea is that the operative Masons would go about their work to build Solomon’s Temple during the daytime that’s how they would earn their wage and then in the evening time or after hours they would get
Together and using the symbolism of the tools they used during the day they would assign them symbolic and moral meanings to help each other live moral and productive lives and that’s essentially what we see here and that’s why we have some overlap of the square the compass that is familiar to
Latter-day Saints obviously the problem will have all the games of trial and the devil each one of those has a um a very special meaning through Freemasons um that I can’t I can’t necessarily share with you but but this is what we use when we talk about using allegory
And symbols this is what we’re talking about we use the allegory of Solomon’s Temple and then the building the Temple and then we use the tools as a way to teach us about life one other thing that I wanted to show you oh yeah here it is it’s actually the
Next slide you guys will you’ll recognize this this is Richard bushman’s rough Stone Rolling a lot of Latter-day Saints don’t realize that the subtitle right the title Joseph Smith but the the subtitle rough Stone Roland is actually a masonic nod uh Joseph himself was the
One who said I’m a rough Stone I deserve the desired learning wisdom in heaven alone the reason that he’s using the idea of a rough Stone is because in Freemason we learn that we are all um what’s the term uh rough stones that we are rough ashlers or bricks and that on
The outside were really rough and Freemasonry uh is a is a way to allow the great architect you now we have the G see the G in the middle there that technically is God but his official title for Freemasons is the great architect and he just like the the
Builders of Solomon’s Temple is basically shaping away the dross and creating us into a perfect Stone so that we can then be placed into his Temple so that’s ultimately the connection between Solomon’s Temple the tools and then the stone is us and in every Lodge that you
Go to you’ll see a rough ashler with with uh like rough edges and rough sides and then you’ll see a perfect ashler which is symbolic of moving from imperfection to Perfection yeah uh eventually anyway well this is anyway to me yeah a very similar concept of what
We find in uh in scripture particularly I think in Isaiah uses a lot of this similar language of us being refined um that the Savior himself will refine us and Purge us and purify us as a purifier of silver this kind of language is used more particularly in the Old
Testament but a very similar connotation and and um meaning we we are to be refined we we are kind of these rough things we have rough edges if we’re to be if we are to act out our full potential as children of God then we need to be refined and purified
And Sanctified by the atonement of Christ and and obedience to him and so this this is a very very um really cool visual I think representation of that concept yep and realize though that that in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we’re more concerned about spiritual refinement
Right and and and sin kind of is what I’m saying uh Freemasonry we don’t talk about Sin right we don’t talk about the consequence of sin it’s all about moral self-improvement and uh I guess they you know I maybe could find some writings on this but as far as I know
They don’t claim like a set doctrine of morality they just have these principles that they basically say if you live these principles you can live a moral and a productive life based on obviously what they see as moral but it’s all good stuff right it’s nothing that
Contradicts the church in any way which I think is really cool that’s a lot of they’re saying so what are what are some of those um if you had to kind of boil it down to the main uh what would you call them moral a moral code
What would you say is kind of that Main moral code for information it’s a good one can I show you another slide oh wow that’s actually the next slide so I’m going to answer your question in a roundabout way but I’m going to answer it
Uh if you look here you see a depiction of the assassination of Joseph and higher MacArthur’s jail right when I was uh in Salt Lake not too long ago I was at the church history museum on the west side of Temple Square and as you go to towards the end of that little
Presentation or the end of that museum they have uh I think it’s the the actual close of either Joseph or higher or both of them you see that you see the bullet holes it actually might be Hiram and anyway they have a they have a really sweet they always have a really sweet
Senior missionary there it’s usually a sister and she’s there to tell you about assassination and all these things and uh a couple years ago I was there and I I just asked her question I said so we know that a mob right killed Joseph and
She said well yeah and I said do you know who was in that mob and she said to be honest I don’t really know and I don’t think you know as a greater church we ever talk about who was in the mob of uh of the of those who
Killed Joseph but there is a theory that that Freemasons especially those in Utah love to cling to and I really like it this is Doctrine and Covenants 135 where we learn that Joseph and hire him were shot at this time by this many people and then this is this is where it gets
Cool for Freemasons Hiram was shot first and felt uh calmly because I mean I’m a dead man she has to sleep from the window and was shot dead in the attempt explaining oh Lord my God so to answer your question about what are the what’s the morals of a Freemason the number one
Moral that they have is to look out for their brothers and although I can’t share with you all of it um those words that Joseph is shouting are related to a distress call that a Freemason would use when he’s in trouble uh to help call for the assistance of
His brothers and so it’s thought by lots of people I think from all angles that there were some Freemasons in the mob that killed Joseph and Hiram that they may be have been upset about him exposing their ritual there’s actually a quote from Hebrew C Kimball where he he
Thought this Masons has said were even among them all that were Joseph and hireman Carthage Jail Joseph Lee completely from the Fatal window gave the Masonic signal of distress by the way Hebrew was amazing himself the answer to this was of murderous musket so lots of and this is one of the first
Things that the uh Brothers at the lodge told me when they found out that I was active Latter-Day Saint they said you know Joseph even up until his last breath he was citing Masonic ritual and uh anyway although I can’t share that entire distress call with you that’s the
Uh that’s has some connection to it yeah I know that’s really interesting um I think the the first time I had heard that that that was in any way connected to uh masonry as a sort of distress call was only maybe about a year or two ago
Um so my whole life I read this story I had been to um I I had been to Carthage uh on a family trip we went to Nauvoo and we went to Carthage and saw the the different church history sites in that area um and it wasn’t even mentioned there
Um at all and so this is I don’t think I don’t know if they didn’t know the missionaries that are assigned there if they if they’re told not to talk about it I don’t know yeah who knows um but yeah this is a really interesting concept that I wasn’t even aware of until
G’s in my 30s so yeah um that’s really interesting yeah so that’s my way to answer your question of what’s the morality it’s it’s to look after those who you have stewardship over whether it be your family or your brothers or your friends like like Unity is huge right
Um That’s the basis for their for our uh morality I would say which is similar to to the gospel which I think is kind of cool yeah yeah I know that is that that’s one of those things that I think is where people see the the overlap not just in ritual and
Things like that but also in the way that yeah in practice how we how we worship in our meetings uh you know Elders Quorum is often referred to as a sort of Brotherhood and we serve one another and that’s what you know ministering is about it’s about serving those in our Ward Family
Um and so there’s there’s a lot of overlap here I can see why um I can see exactly where we would make those connections so that’s pretty interesting yeah you know as a Latter-Day Saint some people ask me like why are you part of the freeway sense
And and also when I was in college one of the other reasons I kind of was interested in Freemasonry is I joined a fraternity a Greek a Greek organization on Southern Utah University’s campus called Sigma Chi and I joined that organization because I found out that both president Nelson and president Oaks
Or uh sorry president Nelson and president Ballard were both Sigma Chi is at the University of Utah in like the 1940s it must have been but uh even in Sigma Chi we have different grips and symbols that that are very very similar to those of Freemasonry and the temple endowment and so
Um anyway one of the reasons I really love these kind of organizations including Sigma Chi and Freemasonry in the church is because they all have a common goal although the church holds the Authority for salvation and and the keys and and those you know elevated things over these other organizations
One thing I really like about these organizations is they’re all focused on self-improvement right they’re all they’re all the the purpose of them is to serve others and help yourself become a better person right that’s what they share anyway so that’s one of the reasons why I one of
The reasons amongst others why I joined Freemasonry and sigma Kai is because I love that aspect of the church and uh if I could find it somewhere else then uh you know and meet new people that networking system is great to have so anyway that’s kind of one of my
Motivations for joining yeah so I kind of want to back up a little bit into um into a couple things I wanna I wanna ask like how much how much do you study about like church history and its connection to Freemasonry are you pretty well versed on that because I this is a
Topic that I’m very new to looking into and so I feel like I don’t know very much about this um this time period even in the church you know the Saints novels are um the church has produced have been really great history um uh history books about the church but
Even then there’s still there’s still only so much you can say in these in limited you know amount of pages and so how much um how much of Freemasonry was really integrated into the church at that time period as as in Nauvoo as they are essentially putting together what would become
The temple endowment yeah I think a lot now one of the issues with studying the connection between Freemasonry and um the church is that the only organization that really cares about that history is the church and so all the all the resources that we’re going to get are mostly I mean you can
Obviously go to other other resources but they’re harder to find right the church has produced several articles and they they have gospel topic essay and they have um these different resources that give a very fair obviously I’m biased but I think a very fair uh depiction and um understanding of the connection
Between early information and the church let me go to another slide that just give a visual while we’re here yeah and just to uh point out what you just said there’s the church has produced a number of different gospel topics essays um and there is an essay that the
Churches on on the website about Freemasonry um and it’s it’s connection to the church and so I would I would suggest anybody who wants to read a little bit more into this after uh after listening to this go check that out and there’s been a number of books and stuff that
Have been produced by other you know um other authors outside the church and stuff as well um but I I haven’t read much of them so what I can do is after the show I can I can email you some sources to put in the description sure yeah that’d be great
So anyway I just thought this would be cool to pull up right you have from from top left to right Joseph Hiram Joseph Smith Senior Huber C Kimball all the cowdry uh David Whitmer Brigham Young Don Taylor Swift Lorenzo Snow so um was there a specific question you had
About the connection early connection or or how it was incorporated that was your question yeah you know because I know for sure there’s a lot of there’s a lot of talk about who became uh involved with Freemasonry in the early days of the church um and I know Joseph was a little bit
Later to that scene um he didn’t he as far as I’m aware um kind of had his reservations and he didn’t want to get involved until much later in his life um uh but that’s about as far as I know in terms of who were members uh that were
Also Freemasons and and where that connection started um in the church and so yeah I I think it’d be interesting to kind of give just a general overview of like the who’s who in the church that became first involved and how that was sort of sort of integrated
Uh over time I I have to admit I’m definitely not an expert on this specific question but we do know that um actually I think it was I could look it up and maybe I can we can put an appendix on the bottom to answer this question but I’m pretty sure
Joseph Smith Senior was a Freemason amongst the first at least that were that were close to Joseph anyway um but before the church was even around I think Freemasonry had already made it’s made its way um that being said I have to look whether or not it was
Before or after I want to say it was before uh Joseph joined but you know you’re familiar with the school the prophets do you remember what year what year they were doing the school of profits I can’t remember um it was before or after his his initiation
The school of the prophets I know for sure it was going on in 1835 okay so it was before because by then they had this is more my area of what I like to study but by 1835 and going into 1836 as the Kirtland Temple was being
Built the School of profits was meeting quite regularly and they had uh Dr Joshua stations who came and taught them Hebrew um and and things like that that that’s um kind of that era and so I believe the school of profits began somewhere around
1835 if I had to put a date on it yeah I’m looking at um on my phone Doctrine and Covenants 88. and I think it was actually before that I’m seeing a revelation Joseph in Kirtland Ohio In 1832 and if you scroll down BMC 88 to verse 133
Let me read this and this is kind of has some Masonic feel to it so I don’t know if he was influenced by those who were already Masons because he wasn’t a Mason for 10 years until 10 years after yeah this was an introduction as I understand it
Um to is it the school of profits I want to say it is but but a meeting they were having it says the 130 uh do you see one uh DNC 88 verse 132 and when any shall come in after him let him let the teacher rise and up with uplifted
Hands to heaven and you know what that looks like right right uplifting Hands to Heaven so you see something there yeah even directly salute his brother or Brethren with these words art thou a brother or brother and I salute you in the name of Lord Jesus Christ and token
Of remembrance of Everlasting Covenant in which Covenant I receive you to a fellowship in the determination that is fixed immovable and changeable to be your friend and brother for the grace of God I wish we started Elder Scrolls like this every day that would be awesome to
Walk in all the Commandments of God blameless in Thanksgiving forever and ever and he doesn’t sound unworthiness of this salutation shall not have placed among you blah blah blah anyway you have you have this kind of more formal like initiation introduction almost to these meetings that that when
You ask about the overlap between early church history and Freemasonry I get a feeling I don’t know for sure I get a feeling that that could have have been influenced by the Masonic figures in that time not necessarily Joseph because he wasn’t a Freemason yet but I’m sure
There were a Latter-Day Saints who were Freemasons at that time and I have no doubt that some of that formal because it’s really helpful right I think about my stated meetings with with my log and I think about my my ritual meetings with my Fraternity in college it’s all very
Systematic and wrote and formal um and anyway I just kind of like that and I think there may have been some influence fancier questions some influence from early masonry even before Joseph had joined I don’t think he necessarily knew the signs and tokens and names and things like that because
That would be an Abomination for any brother who was to reveal but there definitely was some influence um and we may be able to look up more details than that but yeah so I I did just look up real quick on my phone uh it looks it looks like the school that
Profits officially began meeting in January of 1833 um however oh yeah I see that date too yeah it looks like the wider expansion uh to include um all the local as well as general leaders of the church really took place in 1835 um and then forward right that makes sense Foreign
source
