Welcome to the by way of commandment podcast a podcast dedicated to the study of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the finer points of his Doctrine join us as we study the gospel through the scriptures and standard works of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints So the fact that a revelation given to Joseph who is not a Freemason at this point would have these same elements or motifs in the language of these Revelations I find fascinating which to me now outside outside of being a believing member of the church I think you could
Look at that a number of different ways but as a as a believing member of the church I believe Joseph to be a prophet um I I see I see some of the ancient come out in in in that if if these are to be um rituals and phrases and and
Symbols and things that have ancient Origins and that would make sense that they would come through in the revelations in some degree um even prior to any formal initiation into Freemasonry on the part of Joseph yep I I do want to highlight one thing you just said
Um and and say it maybe in a little bit different way one thing that I’ve realized and I have this in my presentation I don’t have to show it to you but one thing that I realize is depending on how a person approaches the issue issues of Freemasonry in the
Church it’s almost as if their conclusion is drawn before they look into the evidence so for example we already mentioned Protestants right a Protestant is going to approach these conversations with that devil cult idea in mind and so they’re going to look at it through that lens right they’re going
To see Joseph as a false prophet and a con man from the beginning right regardless of what we say to them an atheist on the other hand wouldn’t seem as false prophet but he would they would see him as a con man they would see him as an opportunist right and and these
Things that we’re talking about in his influence of ancient things what not they’re going to say that they’re going to come up with some explanation that explains their worldview right but for Latter-Day Saints when we look at this and say Joseph Smith was influenced by God the Father by the Holy Ghost by
Jesus Christ we’re going to draw different conclusions because of the lens that we’re looking through so anyway I just appreciated that little comment you made that as a Latter-day Saint this is how you see it and I totally agree um and the reason one of the main reasons we struggle with these
Conversations with other groups is because we’re all we’re all starting from a different place and that that lens leads us to a different conclusion right and this is this is part of that conversation around how much of the rituals are of ancient origin that I find fascinating and you you
Showed a couple of things earlier from a earlier slide with the specific tools that that a Mason would have used in their everyday practice and and the symbology of that and how we can learn life lessons uh from these tools as they represent symbols for our life
Um yeah exactly this the slide here so there what’s so interesting to me is as I’ve been studying more about the temple um I I’ve um anybody who’s watched this channel for any length of time has seen kind of a change in trajectory over the type of
Um type of content that I produced and in the last year or so I’ll I would say 80 plus of everything that I’ve talked about on the channel is has some reference to or is directly talking about the importance of the temple and um and I’ve studied a number of things I’m
Currently writing a book about uh some of these um motifs and themes about the temple as they would have been seen anciently and so um as I’m writing this book I’m putting together a number of sources and things and I’m I’m learning more and more that
These symbols that come up that share or have some resemblance to our modern day Temple experience as well as uh share in some of the symbols here in Freemasonry um regardless of whether or not the um the the actual ceremonies themselves are of Ancient Order or are a more modern take
I cannot help but see these themes and symbols come up uh time and again in ancient sources if we look back at I’ll just give a couple examples if that’s okay and I have some slides that I can show on this idea as well cool
Um so if we go back to ancient Egypt um so there’s there’s a time period and and forgive me I can’t remember the exact dates um but there’s a time period in which most of what we would call the uh The Book of the Dead or the book of
Breathings things like that that we see in the Papyrus uh that the church owns today um that’s connected with our modern book of Abraham we we don’t have to get into all that but um we know Joseph came into possession of some Papyrus um Scrolls and whatnot in the mid-1830s
Over time he used them as the Catalyst to translate what would become the book of Abraham and on that Papyrus there’s a number of other diff uh other texts um such as the book of breathings and whatnot and there’s the Book of the Dead and things that are associated with that
From the same general time period they would have been produced back in ancient Egypt that also have a compass and square and a few other symbols as part of their symbology to represent uh themes of creation and themes of um new life and sanctification or Resurrection even so we see even the
Square Encompass being used in ancient Egypt um in some of their own texts as well and they may have been used slightly differently than we might use them today um but they were there and generally speaking were used uh to also represent things like creation um and so anybody who’s uh Latter-Day Saint
Who’s familiar with the temple endowment would recognize some of those similar themes um one other thing I’ll bring up um is we have a number of signs and tokens associated with both Freemasonry and the Latter-Day Saint endowment and without giving any detail into what those look like or how they’re
Performed I will say uh there are a number of early Christian texts and and letters from um Cyril in Jerusalem uh in that I believe the second Century A.D and then um a couple different texts like the Gnostic Gospel of um oh is it the Gospel of John or something like that
There’s a there’s a gnostic text that’s a separate gospel not what we would consider the Gospel of John in the New Testament but something else and a number of other or it’s called the acts of John excuse me um the acts of John is an Gnostic text
And there’s a few others that also make reference to specific hand clasps and divine um tokens that a a an initiated brother in the gospel of Christ would recognize one another via these the use of these um symbols and tokens and so they would give and receive these tokens
Um not only to initiate one into a higher order of service within the church but also to recognize a brother or a sister in the church and amongst these there is explicit reference specifically in a letter from Cyril of Jerusalem and in the acts of John as I mentioned in which
Um one or more of these tokens uh uh these what we consider Divine hand clasps let’s say um are explicitly referencing the crucifixion of the savior and that these would be used in connection with uh with the true order of prayer is what Cyril calls it
Um and so a brother or sister in Christ uh wishing to recognize one another and also to um exercise this true prayer um in a in a closed church meeting could give or receive this token that was representative of the crucifixion of the Savior now what that looked like I don’t know
Um but we can I think I think we know what it looked like well I I I I put the disclaimer um it very well could have looked slightly different back then um but I think we can all recognize uh how that’s described as being incredibly similar if not possibly the
Same as what we would uh recognize today and it all has explicit reference to the Savior and his atonement and his crucifixion and um that this was how we took upon ourselves uh the the the the the Covenant let’s say or the desire to enter into Covenant to um
To serve God and to serve serve our fellow man and so we see this pop up even as early as these early Christian and Gnostic texts going back to the first and second Century A.D so these the the argument that I hear quite often that the the church was ripping off Masons
And that the Masons weren’t really ancient in origin either that’s just all myth it’s like that’s fine you can you can believe that the rituals that masonry had at the time that Joseph quote unquote ripped them off um were a more contemporary modern uh ritual and as you showed earlier from that slide
Um it seems to go back at least to somewhere in the 1400s um I do think that the the rituals themselves the specific motifs motifs and themes and symbols uh themselves do in fact have ancient origin and I do think we have uh quite a bit of
Um early Christian Gnostic texts as well as Jewish texts and even going back to Egypt um ancient Egypt we have some of these symbols and things pop up as well and so we can’t so I I there’s a big caveat a big asterisk behind this conversation of
Well how ancient in origin do these things really occur um and I I find it fascinating yeah let me show you something um but I had him on here but let me you may recognize this you see that oh yeah yeah and I’m gonna throw this one up here too
This one will be we’ll talk about but this is uh from unibley’s Temple in the cosmos and uh you can kind of see I got it here I got it right oh break oh yeah there we go yeah that’s on page 104. you came up to me you’ve
Seen this before right yeah this is uh if you look down here I forget exactly where he says it’s from one’s from Italy one’s from France one’s from uh what is it the first dynasty probably Egyptian but uh you see there’s a lot of they say who’s been through the temple
Endowment you see some things that they’re doing the clothing that they’re wearing their their hand gestures it looks familiar and so to your point um I think Hugh nibbly knew this before we all did but and it made me Joseph nor maybe Joseph didn’t know that these
Types of things that we do in the temple that are that are considered sacred to us um we’re not the first humans in the world to make these gestures now what was their purpose in you doing the gestures I don’t I don’t have a stance on that
Here’s another fun one I I don’t um I don’t have any claims about this one whatsoever but I saw this online and I just thought it was interesting I I really wouldn’t draw any conclusion conclusions to it so here let me spread it out a little bit but you kind of see
The same thing right um yeah now you know do the Mayans were they doing you know Temple thinks I don’t know and I’m not making any claims but just interesting hand gestures that we see and it may have meant something different to them I don’t know right
Well so the headline now for this video is going to be Hayden Carroll uh explicitly believes in the Mesoamerican model of the Book of Mormon forget all the free forget all the Freemasonry stuff we’re gonna scrap that this is going to be the title this is going to be
Yeah yeah I’m I’m actually probably more of a Heartland guy but we can talk about that another day sure um and I just I just have to I just have to troll a little bit because this is such a heated uh discussion even within the church it’s it’s it’s pretty crazy
My only point in showing this one is like look ancient civilizations like you said have used gestures and signs for specific purposes um Let me let me jump to this if you’d be okay with feeling let me jump back to this I think when we talk about the origin of
Modern Freemasonry I think this and I kind of alluded to this before where and when Freemasonry started uh is a huge testimony Builder to me as a Latter-Day Saint because and here’s my question to you and to your audience if there is a group of men who are in
Scotland in the 1400s what is another not Freemasonry but what is another organization that they are probably a part of at this point in their lives protestantism is kind of making its way but what’s the main organization at play in these people’s lives uh well as far as I know uh Catholicism
Is the big major religious and cultural movement in the UK at that time or in specifically in Scotland and Ireland yes let me show instill this today right there’s still Catholic over there um can I share a few I would call this more of a theory you can share whatever you want man
Okay and I hope we’re doing good on time I know we’re about an hour and a half or so I’m I’m good so you can keep going however long you want to go okay I mean I probably have 30 more minutes or so okay we don’t have to go that long
Though but here’s my thought if there’s a group of men who are getting together and having these private meetings and they’re sharing symbolic things and they’re all members of the Catholic Church there’s probably in Catholic Church is highly ritualistic it’s it’s very I mean even mass today you go into
A mass and it’s they’re wearing I mean look I mean the pope he wears the bishop of Rome wears these robes all the time right and it’s very symbolic and he has the cap but I’d like to show you some slides that although I’m not making any you know like
What’s the word I’m looking for like final claims or anything like that I’d like to show you some interesting things um that Latter-Day Saints would would recognize that are coming from the Catholic church and for me if the Freemasons are getting some of their symbols from the Catholic church
That’s a testimony Builder to me because what’s the origin of the Catholic church it’s Peter and it’s Christ right although we have different ideas about where that went um I think there’s something to be said about some of these ancient things uh in the Catholic church so
Um I have quite a few but let me uh let’s go here first this is why you look I showed you this slide already but the reason I have a sudden ear is because when you go to mass you see the the priests or the deacons wearing these different robes
And so my in that hat right so my question to the Latter-Day Saint is have you ever worn anything like this before and look at their look at the the things that go all the way down to the floor have you ever worn something like that before no never no apostate right you’ve
Never worn that a temple endowment but but my point is not that they’re doing the temple endowment right now but but my question is why why are they wearing these robes and they may have an answer I don’t I don’t know when I have an interview to Catholic to ask them why or
A priest or a parish priest but generally speaking um it’s each each part each robe or each um item of clothing has a reference to their status within the priesthood yep and you know what has overlap there is my my um Masonic apron right based on
How I wear my apron is my status in the lodge whether I’m a I’m an apprentice where I do the heavy lifting where I’m the one who’s loading up the blocks or whether I’m a fellow craft who’s actually doing the cutting or whether a Master Mason who’s overseeing the
Project right you wear your apron in a different way so anyway I just thought that’s interesting that they’re wearing clothes that bear resemblance of what we wear that’s a cool thing here yeah just real quick because I mentioned a little bit about this earlier um so some of these early Christian
Texts um that were later deemed Gnostic and and whatnot yeah um so there’s a couple of them what comes to mind between the acts of John and that letter between Cyril Jerusalem uh there’s another one by Clement of Rome who’s writing and and in
Uh in the acts of John and in a couple of these other texts that I mentioned um the Lord himself during during this period of time in which um so we know it from the New Testament that after his resurrection he was with the apostles for 40 days before he ascended into heaven
And then that’s kind of where acts really begins and the apostles are sent out to um to build the church essentially and um from some of these other tax in writings one of the things that I find interesting is because you mentioned Peter um the Lord initiates or teaches the
Remaining 11 Apostles and their spouses or some other women who were um had close association with them um this quote unquote true order of Prayer and in that the Lord himself uh gives them specific signs tokens things um and that they were to give each other
As they enter into this order of prayer and he expressly gives Peter the authority to oversee that these signs and tokens were carried on only to the most faithful of members uh moving forward in their Ministry and that um he was even Peter was stand to stand in the middle
Uh at the at the head of the altar as the others gathered around for prayer and so there’s a lot of things to do with Peter being held responsible by the Lord to continue on the work of uh sharing and giving these uh symbols and tokens and things only with the only
With the most faithful of members who can handle them you know it’s the milk before me uh thing yep and again obviously these are these are texts that the church doesn’t recognize as authoritative scripture the way that um the rest of the New Testament is but these are at least texts that were
Around in the first two centuries or so of Christianity and some of them even before that so they were around um at the time of the the earliest days of Christianity in some cases to where um regardless of whether or not their authoritative scripture it is
Fascinating to look at them and see some of the beliefs and practices of at least some sects of early Christian groups yep um I think did you didn’t mention her Jennifer roach I think she just did a video on this for fair did you see
That video I haven’t I I watched most of her videos for fair because I know she does one like every week um I haven’t watched the last week or two um I’ll send it to you you can put it in the description because what exactly what you’re saying she she quotes the
Acts to John I think or or one of the Gnostic or one of the the um what do you call it the apocryphal text yeah super graphical uh text yeah and she says exactly what you’re saying which I thought was interesting and it’s interesting that you that you bring up
This because I mean look at this picture this is a depiction of a woman wearing a veil with some sort of robe like clothing with her arms in the air right and that doesn’t look familiar to a Latter-Day Saint I don’t know what does you Nibley uh he’s really into this
Stuff obviously as we keep quoting him oh yeah this is a great article yep and Jennifer mentions this too and I’m glad she did but you can see that uh I underlined it he says that the prayer the prayer circles essentially is what he’s referring to uh dated it to at
Least to the earliest third Century which is like 200 A.D right so anyway we see the Catholic Church performing some of these rituals which I think is really cool for Latter-Day Saints right and so when we look at Freemasonry as as a modern organization that claims lore from Solomon’s Temple but who actually
Probably got a lot of the originalistic things from from their world from the 1400s I think looking at the Catholic Church as an influencer of them and considering the origins of the Catholic Church like I said I think it’s a great testimony builder for Latter-Day Saints
Yeah absolutely and I think in in that uh if we’re going to follow that I don’t want to call it a narrative but that um Theory to its conclusion um we can see where Joseph Smith uh holding the Keys of the Kingdom on Earth at the time that he was living
Would be sort of taking back or re-appropriating appropriately that which was of ancient origin that had lost the authority behind it so there the symbols the the teachings all of the things associated with these rituals may have lost Authority behind it over time and now with Joseph and the church
Um having the the proper Authority can re-appropriate or reintegrate these same symbols and whatnot um appropriately you know I’m willing to be corrected on on this Theory but but sure yeah and we could be wrong about listening this is kind of just our best guess right at the information that we
Have but it it makes total sense right exactly what you’re saying that Joseph saw these things information he saw truth in them and potentially even the Lord was using Freemasonry which was already familiar to the Latter-Day Saints at the time at least the men to introduce them to more Holier and higher
Things in the temple endowment and I have a little timeline at the end of this I can show you about the timeline of of the Lord working with them to give them Temple truth but here’s one uh ancient practice of the Catholic church or well yeah let’s just leave it at that
As far as student was concerned here’s a um art uh sculpture uh in France this is in a cathedral in France and if you look very closely at the middle you see the Savior and you see what he’s doing with his hands and again this is Catholic origin right
And I bet you if you ask the Catholic what why he’s doing that I don’t think they’d have a good answer maybe the pope could you give me an answer but but for some reason the Catholic church is creating art where they’re having the savior make these symbols and uh if
You’ve been in doubt how do you recognize these symbols clothing as well the way that it’s the the robes wrapped around his shoulder yep um absolutely yeah all these different things um come out in art yep it’s kind of just fun to see the the the the overlap here well and I’ll say
Too um real quick so there was a there’s a a series of paintings um from the well a couple were from the Renaissance Era and then um there was a wall painting or or some something of the sort um that would have been produced by um the someone in the Greek Orthodox tradition
In which um a husband and wife were brought to an altar and an angel would literally uh either descend from heaven or would reach out from behind the veil of heaven and uh give them specific signs and then bring them up to heaven together as a couple which I found fascinating as well
And there’s there’s a really good article that I can link below in the description um from The Interpreter Foundation that um that that has each of these different things pictured and then some brief descriptions yeah and uh the Catholic Church also has some bail and some things like that I’ll
Show you here in a second here’s the next one this is a book on Catholic liturgy I I forget the author and the day I’ll I’ll send it to you so you can cite it but if you look here this is the Catholic church this is early rituals
And liturgy in the Catholic church I sign your forehead in the name of the father and of the son of the holy spirit that you may be a Christian that’s on your eyes that you may see the glory of God I see you I sign your ears that you
May hear the word voice of the Lord I sign your nostrils that you may breathe the fragrance of Christ that’s on your lips that you may speak the words of life I sign your heart so that you may believe in the Holy Trinity I sign your shoulders so that you may bear the
Service I send you a body in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit so that you may live forever and ever anyway you recognize that anyone who’s been through the temple recognizes that just some cool overlap that I well I think is interesting
Yeah and we see some of this too in in our our scriptural Canon as well if you look through the Psalms if you look through Isaiah there’s a number of Old Testament uh texts and and some new testament as well that also use similar language or allude to some of these
Concepts without outright uh uh writing them out but um but yeah it’s just more more ammo to me for towards the idea that these things are of ancient origin um be careful talking about ammo and musket fire you’re like oh my bad I’m sorry well we already got that’s okay because
We’re getting the heartlanders all all wound up and we’re getting we’re gonna get everybody a little uh on edge so why not just throw in some musket fire yeah right step by I totally agree with what with what you’re saying here here’s kind of my last my last one here I think this
Is really cool this is a uh cathedral in Ravenna Italy which is about three hours north of of uh Rome if I’m not mistaken and this was taken by a friend of mine named Alma Allred you may you may know him he’s on a mission there with his
Wife Syrian Temple he’s a scholar he kind of he kind of specializes in the fundamentalist groups he’s the he’s the nephew of uh rule In Allred who was at one point the president of the uh the AUB okay yeah United brother yeah that’s right anyway
So yeah so Alma already is the one who took this picture he was my Bishop when I served in Salt Lake he was the bishop over the uh oh what’s the college in Sugarhouse called uh Westminster he was he was the bishop of the Westminster ward of the YSA and
So I got to know him very well and him and I kept in touch and still talk probably every few weeks or once a month now that he’s in Italy anyway he took this picture um on his camera or on his phone and uh he said it really stood out to him
Because it obviously looks similar to what a veil what the veil the temple may look like but it’s that’s not all here’s the here’s where he really took the picture I’m going to zoom in to the left side here you see these curtains but you see something coming out from behind the curtains
Oh hey there you go you see these hands coming out from behind the veil which uh he thought was pretty interesting I think it’s pretty interesting again does the Catholic Church have an answer to why this was this was uh depicted this way I don’t know maybe but it’s just it’s it’s you
Can tell that there’s definitely some overlap here between us of them anyway picked up on that it’d be very interesting to go through because the Catholic church has extensive records um the one thing you cannot say about uh the Catholic church is that they had not kept Good Records
Um they have them they they are a people who really really value um any text that they can get their hands on um they will see to it that it’s taken care of to the best of their ability and they really really have a great library of resources
Um going back as far as I think uh as far as the church was conceived at least in the modern sense and so um that’s that’s fascinating I’ve never seen this picture before but that is and that’s incredible um I have I have uh I’m trying to look
Up a transient I remember what this uh see the the top thing the top words in English we would say like I’m trying to look yeah if it’s I don’t know if it’s in uh if it’s an Italian or if that’s Latin it looks to me like that might be Latin
But I could be totally remember him telling me oh yeah go ahead no I would have to look that up but I think that’s more Latin to me can you hear me yes can you hear me hold on can you hear me still yeah
Hold on my uh I can’t hear you give me one second oh yeah okay talk again can you hear me yeah yeah I can hear you now sorry I don’t know what happened I don’t know if it was your mic or my headphones but um yeah sorry say what you said about
That I I forget maybe someone in the comment section can tell us what that means I want to say it’s something about like his kingdom or his his presence I can’t remember yeah I’ll have to I’ll have to make sure I look that up and we’ll we’ll if
Anybody knows in the comments please let us know because that’d be pretty interesting I try to look up a quick translation I couldn’t figure it out to do it justice so anyway um that’s uh that’s basically it for my uh I have a picture of Pope Francis here
That’s basically it for my nod to Catholicism um and again this is this is not a critique of them this is to say we probably have some common Origins right which has been the claim of the church for a long time right right that essentially the Keys of the Kingdom were
Corrupted eventually and that there was a great apostasy obviously they would they would say the opposite but there definitely is something about the ancient rituals of the Catholic church and how they overlap with our Temple worship and I think the Freemasons picked up on that that’s my take anyway
I may be wrong that’s my take yeah I mean who’s to say I think it I think that’s an interesting theory that if if what we’re to understand about the influence of Catholicism in Scotland at that time uh that that Freemason would have Freemasonry would have
Kind of began in the modern sense then that makes perfect sense to me why that might be the case yeah and someone’s I’m willing to be corrected on that so if anybody else has another idea Theory let us know right I think anybody who’s listened to my channel by now knows that um
There’s a there’s a very high likelihood that I will be wrong about many things from time to time sure so um I I think they’ve come to expect it at this point but um you know we’re we’re just two guys talking about something really cool yeah yep cool well
Um is there any other questions or any other topics well you did you did mention that you had kind of a general timeline uh of of uh of events here yeah I mean this is really cool because so the main two critiques of the church and Freemasonry is that Joseph stole the unique
Um rituals of the Freemasons which we can now see have ancient Origins at least I believe they do and they’re scattered throughout the world but more so in Europe right earlier in the 15th century Europe but the other uh critique that people have of Joseph is he was uh
Initiated and raises a mass formation you know within a couple days but within a couple months two months I think of issuing the endowment ceremony so I’ve created a little timeline this is one of the greatest studies I’ve ever done it took me four or five hours to
Really look into and make sure I had all my on my dates right but I would encourage anybody who’s concerned about Joseph’s influence uh being influenced by Freemasonry and you know if you’re just thinking oh he just copied it and he learned about it and then he just
Made the endowment look at these dates because this tells a different story to that theory and that theory it really holds no water when you start to look at some of these so uh as a basic Foundation April 6th we have the church’s restored in April in uh
December 9th of 1830 in DNC and if there was a structural support it I put that verse in there for all these Christ mentions the temple for the first time in modern scripture so obviously the Saints knew on Ancient temples um like the Tabernacle and Solomon’s Temple but
It wasn’t until uh six months into the church being restored that that the Savior started talking about his temple in a modern sense so hold on to that because Joseph was and you’ll see at the end of this Joseph was initiated as a Freemason in 1842. so the Lord has been
Talking right as as faithful latter Saints we see this as the Lord telling Joseph uh 12 years before prior to him being issued that there’s Temple blessings in store for them a few months later next month later actually a few weeks later in uh two chapters over two sections over Christ
Benches the Saints being endowed for the first time okay so you have this premise you have this um what’s what I’m looking for like it precedes it uh uh I can’t think of the word right now but you know what I mean right yeah uh it still took my tongue but he’s already
Been talking about it dc42 yeah February of 1831 Christ continues to encourage it seems to focus on the temple although they don’t have one yet Christ mentioned again mentions endowing Saints with power the Lord commands Saints to build a temple in Kirtland Ohio 1833 the Lord gives instruction uh on the
Details of the curtain Temple to build it in August in June of 1834 uh the Lord reminds the saints that they must receive an endowment okay so he’s constantly talking about this gift that he has for them which is what an endowment is this is interesting uh in 1836 the
Initiatory ordinance is uh given to the Brethren to a small group of people this is before the Curtin Temple is is completed so he has a preparatory ordinance for them the dedication uh which was uh two months later dedication of the Kirtland Ohio Temple and the initiation our
Initiatory ordinances are given to all adult members male and female and then this is the the interesting part here a few months later or the next month later the Lord mentions a greater Temple blessings in the store for the Saints so you have the initiatory the temple the dedication the initial
For the Saints and then you have him saying and there’s more I’m preparing you right and as Latter-Day Saints even today we see the initiator as a preparatory ordinance um and then this is the second half of it but you kind of get the idea July of 1837 the Saints records to leave
Kirtland got the Missouri December of 1838 Joseph goes to Liberty Jail winter the uh winter to Spring of 1839 the Saints are forced to leave due to the extermination order by Governor Boggs October 1840 the Saints are eager to build another Temple because they had to leave the Kirtland one and a committee
Is overseen for the construction this is unrelated but I thought interesting Joseph suggested there’s a place for safety prepared uh for the Saints and the Rocky Mountains before he dies four years before he dies right I know one of the earliest um recorded minutes for the Council of 50
Uh where they kind of discussed um places they might go for refuge and safety if they were forced to leave again the way that they were in Missouri and so they would need to know where are we going to go as a people where are we going to kind of
Um find Refuge if need be and I know that it was suggested Rocky Mountains so that’s yeah that’s good I’ll need to add that in after the show to get that Source thank you January 1841 the Lord gives Revelation to build the Nauvoo Temple and he instructs them so that instructs
Them to perform their Washington audience in that Temple uh Navi Temple begins in 1841 February okay here’s where here’s where it all wraps together so this is February of 1841 uh a year and a month later Joseph officially joins the Korean accepted masons of Illinois in May of that same year the first
Endowment is administered to the brethren in the upstairs uh Red Brick Store of Naboo because the Nabu Temple is not built all the way and then Joseph and Hiram are killed in Carthage um so here’s the point of this timeline for people who want to say people want
To just focus on the last three points right they want to say Joseph joined and then he made the endowment and then now he’s abroad because he did that right and it’s like look what preceded Look What the Lord was was giving to them before he gave
The endowment to them okay let me say this did Joseph was Joseph influence especially by the presentation of the endowment by the by the Masonic rituals he absolutely was there’s no doubt about that to say that he wasn’t influenced whatsoever is to put your head in the
Sand like of course he was influenced by it now did he learn Divine things from them potentially but is the endowment and are the Masonic rituals identical absolutely not they are similar in the sense in the presentation in the sense that in the endowment we represent Adam and Eve and
We’re kind of in the story if you will right when the when the witness couple at least they used to anyway when they go up to the to the altar that would represent us as if we were respectively Adam and Eve and in the Masonic ritual
We also play a role in the drama if you will but we represent a man named Hiram bobith who is the like I mentioned before at the beginning of our conversation that he’s the the Freemason the operative Mason who the Masons tell his story to teach about the symbol and
Allegory of the moral principles so in that sense sure there is some overlap but but for somebody especially who’s not a Mason especially who’s not a member of the church to be making claims as if they know what’s in the Masonic rituals and that they know the history I just
My first question to anybody who always uh or who will um my question to them always is whoever’s critiquing the endowment is are you Latter-Day Saint and are you a Freemason and do you know the history like do you know what you’re talking about or are you reciting you
Know the the tropes that your pastor or that you read online like and that’s what I I find people parenting and that’s why I created this whole thing is to say there’s more to it than just what you heard some guy saying on YouTube video right well I’m glad you put all this
Together because it’s uh you’re right this is a very common critique of the church um if you want to attack the church and it’s specifically attack the the temple worship um this is a very common way to critique it is to look at the the history of
Freemasonry and it’s some of the ritual that were adopted into Joseph’s Temple endowment and be like Oh see clear-cut uh you know black and white uh this is clearly ripped off from Masons which if you’re if you’re in a particular religious uh group like let’s say you’re a Protestant
Evangelical you already have your your thoughts and feelings about Mormonism and about Freemasonry you put them together and it’s like it’s uh yeah it’s a it’s an instant fail uh it passes it uh uh what is it it uh it doesn’t pass the smell test and so yep yep um
But no this is this is incredibly important to understand this timeline right here um and when I think of the timeline of events surrounding uh the the revelations that Joseph received throughout his life leading up to this point um what I see are within the revelations
Themselves and you can go back and look at the the minutes that were recorded from various meetings you can look at sermons you can look at the Doctrine and Covenants itself and you’ll see Temple language all throughout uh Joseph Joseph’s Ministry throughout his life even before we get to Nauvoo
Um and so for me it’s very it’s it’s settled in my mind at least that by the time he had been initiated into masonry and seen and experienced the rituals um to me he had already spent the last how many years of his life learning from the Lord the specific
Doctrines and teachings surrounding what were to be part of Temple liturgy and now he’s being introduced for the first time uh sacred symbols and um but you know uh tokens and and signs and whatnot and being able to discern from them uh what is or can be appropriately used
To connect uh the Divine teachings and truths of the Gospel with initiation into uh authoritative Covenant making with God I couldn’t have said it better myself that’s exactly I think what’s Happening Here I’ve had a lot of practice uh yeah saying because I I mentioned before I’m writing a book on this
Um I it’s it’s basically when I try to describe it to friends and family basically what I’m writing is Hugh nibbly light um it’s it’s oh that’s very generous of your uh to yourself well it is all right yes I’ll be sure to take the preemptive
Vow before it’s published but um but no I I I’m looking at a number of different ancient texts Christian text Gnostic texts um different pseudoprographical works and a pickerful uh works and things like that and I’m piecing together basically the same things that you would find in the collected works of Hugh
Nibley and elsewhere many many many authors uh Latter-Day Saint and non-latter-day Saint have written on these topics I’m just sort of putting them together in a I guess a more uh uh what’s the term adjustable yeah a more digestible way for the everyday average Latter-Day Saint who doesn’t
Want to read through 500 pages of uh of Greek um the way that somebody like you know you and I are familiar with unibley’s works and um he can be very long-winded and had very very detailed um in what he writes about and so I wanted to take those same Concepts and
The same sources and texts and just kind of give them a a bit of a um a touch up in for a modern everyday average Joe can read and not feel like they have to understand Greek and things like that to understand some of these things and so
Um that’s what I’ve been doing for the last several months as I’m as I’m writing this and I’m so glad that you included some of those slides um with the imagery and um even referencing uh humidity in there with the the Christian prayer circle uh article all of those things uh I’m I’m
Planning to include in in this this volume I’m hoping I’m hoping to make this exact point is what I’m really getting to say is I’m hoping that what I put together um can be easily digestible for the everyday average person so that you have a better understanding that at least the
Themes and motifs and symbols that are associated with the modern Temple have ancient origin and this is what they would have meant to these people anciently and at different points in time and what we can learn from them without me having to divulge things that I’ve made covenant not to
Um I can we we can look back at other cultures and civilizations anciently and how these things were practiced um from the records that we have from them and talk about that in a way that benefits us today without having to openly diffold certain things about our
Modern Temple yeah and I’m glad you’re doing that because we need something like that because the the average you know the 99 99.9 of Lottery Saints aren’t going to even have the ability or the the interest I mean the desire up front to go and study some of the things
That you’re looking at and putting in a digestible way so I appreciate you doing that um yeah did you have something else I think you know what I I could go on for a little bit longer but I know we’ve been at this for two hours so I wanna we
Could do another episode for sure sometime yeah maybe we can do that we can um have you back on and we’ll we’ll talk some more yeah but is it okay if we close with this last little slide yeah of course this is a slide I made just to
Kind of wrap everything up um this is my message to active believing Latter-Day Saints and and I I admit my bias I’m I’m coming to this like I said before already believing in the God right so I’m not an atheist I believe in Jesus the Christ so I’m a Christian I believe
In Joseph Smith as a prophet so I’m a Latter-Day same I also believe in president Nelson as a prophet so I’m more of a brick of my if somebody say right so I’m coming at it with those assumptions already but if you are listening and if you fall into those categories with me
Um I’d like to provide your your listeners yourself and your listeners with a an honest perspective from somebody who’s been through the temple endowment hundreds of times who’s been through the initiatory more than 100 times right who’s been through the the first and second and third degrees of blue Lodge masonry
Um you know somebody who’s experienced all of that firsthand I’ve seen it with my own eyes and I’ve done my study and I’ve put in the hundreds of hours of work and and effort that it takes I’ve done my homework I’d like to just kind of wrap
Up with my perspective on the real connection between Latter-Day Saints and Freemasonry I have some premises another conclusion um and you’ll have to tell me if you agree with these many aspects of the temple are ancient in their nature premise two remnants of Truth can be found in many places
Three God uses things we are familiar with with to help the teach us he teaches his truths in a way that he knows we can receive it for the Lord has often used temples for his work and Promises modern people talk about blessings and damage of power from
The beginning of restoration and if you add those things together on the on the on the perspective of Freemasonry my personal conclusion after all the things I’ve learned over the last several years masonry became a catalyst for the early Saints receiving what God had in store for them it
Contains truth and Joseph saw the presentation of masonic rituals as an effective way to present with the Lord I’ve given him to administer the saint which is the temple endowment and that’s how I really view it I view that Joseph was prepared the saints were prepared through this um through their
Association with Freemasonry um and there is some overlap and guess what that’s a good thing considering the ancient origins of Freemasonry and the rituals fairly swear where I believe they get their rituals from um it’s actually a good thing you guys that we have some overlap with some ancient uh organizations
Anyway that’s my that’s my perspective no that’s great and and I I agree with each of these premises and the conclusion I just want to add one thing um yeah when we go to premise three God uses things we’re familiar with to help teach us
And that he teaches us truth in the way that he knows we can receive it this is such an important point when we look at um different civilizations uh throughout history even uh Christian uh civilizations Christian uh groups throughout history um and as we had talked about um quite a bit already
When we look back at some of these rituals and things and how they may have been performed anciently um there’s going to be some differences um because the cultures and the people at that time would have understood things slightly differently than we understand today and so in
As we look at our modern Temple liturgy as we look at even just in a broader sense as we look at the beliefs and practices of the church generally um we see so much overlap with ancient Christianity with uh elements of Judaism and and other civilizations anciently
But we shouldn’t expect that they would be exactly the same in every instance and so when we talk about a restoration of the church and the gospel I think we typically frame it I know I framed it this way on my mission as a young missionary excited about teaching the
Gospel is the restoration of the Gospel through Joseph Smith and the church and all that is exactly you know first century Christianity it’s it’s Peter and Paul in them it’s exactly how it was before this is a complete restoration of exactly everything as it was uh anciently and I think in a general
Sense that’s true the the same general teachings and practices would be uh the same or if or at least uh quite similar but some of the cultural influences of different cultures and peoples at different times will have an effect on uh how these teachings and practices are viewed and received
Um at different times and so when we look back there I think there could be uh we could be a little bit more cautious about how we frame the restoration as being an exact replica of things anciently it’s not there are some slight differences and variations but the general teachings the same the
Priesthood Authority uh is from God which is the same but there might be some slight variations in how we teach and receive these teachings today that would be slightly different than we look at anciently and so God uses things that we’re familiar with in our own language and culture to teach us truth
Yeah that’s great I I could add a little appendix there for a number three that’s perfectly said cool well do you have any other questions or concerns that that we or we can do another episode probably yeah let’s um let’s do another episode we’ll stop there for today um this was great
Um I’m I honestly didn’t know that you had put this together prior to us doing this so this was awesome um I’m really glad you put this presentation together um answers a lot of questions I think I think this is a great discussion I’m hoping that anybody who listens to it
Whether you’re Latter-day Saint or not whether you’re a Freemason or not um we’ll come away with a better understanding of where we’re coming from and some general history um and and hopefully it piques your interest to look into some of this stuff a little bit more at least with more charitable eyes
So thank you for having me on yeah thanks for being here we’ll do this again sometime absolutely Thank you
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