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While you and I head over to this week’s interview my conversation with the enigmatic yeah I’m gonna say it the enigmatic Thomas 777 Welcome back to the mark Claire show my guest today is a philosopher a political theorist uh revisionist historian and author and as he might refer to himself an unrepentant Peckerwood very pleased to welcome Thomas 777 Thomas welcome to the show thank you Mark pleased to have you here Thomas and you
Know I’ve as I was telling you before the show I probably heard you know 70 to 80 hours probably more than that of podcasts you’ve done with our a friend of the show uh Pete Quinones and uh there’s a lot of places we can start on
The subject I want to get into today talking a little bit about the Nazis and their interest in the occult but first I want to get to know you a little bit better and I know you’ve got a got a fairly interesting backstory so I’ll let
You take it from wherever you think it makes the most sense but I just want to get to know your background a little bit more and you know eventually how you became interested in everything you’re interested in in regards to politics and history and that sort of thing sure
From the North Shore of Chicago if anybody knows the lay of the land demographically and culturally um you’ll notice that that’s kind of an odd fit for somebody like me but my folks were angelino’s uh my dad was uh my dad was uh like quite literally a
White trash Okie who ended up at Harvard owing to you know um kind of accident of fate and an extraordinarily um High intellect um when it came to a certain certain task the Army wanted them to complete you know my mom was very much like an
Old stock wasp uh that’s what I found myself you know kind of in uh the strange uh and terrible uh environs in Chicago’s North Shore which is my home I love it here but um it is strange it’s kind of the uh it’s kind of like Twin Peaks meets less than zero
Um you know I I went to school I went I grew up with the I grew up in a town that was about one-third Jewish the remaining two-thirds were uh kind of like nuvarisha you know a lace curtain operation like the in mob guys frankly
Um my dad was an economist who was very much uh tethered the the the Cold War apparatus you know even when he entered the private sector um so things like the cold war and power politics were kind of always quite literally the subject the dinner table discussion in my house okay uh
I was always like an introverted bookish kid who was not in particularly good health uh you know so my dad and I we’re always extraordinarily close and he he kind of fed my appetite for um you know intellectual uh nourishment um very aggressively and uh you know from there uh I uh
I started asking questions about my own environment you know as I developed kind of a more complete conceptual picture of the world around me um and uh owing to the the demographic balance that I I just you know described among other things as well as the epoch
In which I came at age you know which was the very end of the Cold War I started asking questions you know about the second world war and about you know the the reality of a race and and and sectarian questions um and things like this uh
I uh in those days you know really all you had at your disposal was zines you know uh on the more kind of heady side stuff like the institute for historical review newsletter and the more kind of on the more kind of rough uh and raw side you
Know stuff like Tom Metzger’s War newsletter um I started just kind of like taking it as much as I could about um you know revisionist topics when I went to college uh I went to Loyola University um which might seem strange to some people considering my confessional
Heritage but in those days they had an unapologetically right-wing history Department despite the fact there was you know more than nominally a Jesuit institution and uh they had a genuine um political Theory curriculum you know most universities you know uh they’ve got a political science track which is just kind of
Nonsense you know it’s uh you sit around kind of dealing with uh Antiquated kind of like modeling concepts of international relations and [ __ ] like that and you know this just kind of very very simple-minded stuff um you know and then I got a scholarship to law school you know I really want
Even though I didn’t particularly want to practice law like in those days it wasn’t like today like you couldn’t say like I’m gonna be a writer and just like try and monetize my [ __ ] and see where it goes it was like you know what am I going to do like if I I’m
Not it’s like I had ideas for books I wanted to write but it’s like what was it gonna like write a way to like Random House be like oh I want to write a book you know impeaching the credibility of the Holocaust you know I mean so it uh I figured
Nothing else you know it’s like I’d have a backup plan I’d be able to practice law I like that that got derailed for all kinds of reasons uh I mean during that whole time you know from about the using that days onward I mean I was writing online like about
Revisionist topics and other things um you know I before without even realizing it it kind of developed a brand not kind of I did I developed a brand around myself I always had the same username I’ve only ever been Thomas 777. um you know life intervene then uh I I
Really uh I really kind of uh I fell pretty far um out of the world frankly I mean owing the you know only going to uh a pretty um a pretty serious uh addiction and heroin for about a decade and and other things you know um
I got my wife back on track and uh you know put my legal difficulties behind me do you mind me asking a little bit more about that yeah it’s kind of kind of something I want to dig into a little bit because I’m sure that whole experience and if
You’re had a heroin addiction for 10 years it must have shaped everything so many things in your life and I’m kind of curious how how you first went down that path and and then how you got out of it I mean briefly I wasn’t a guy who like did drugs like I
Didn’t even smoke pot like I tried it you know and because like I grew up in the 80s and 90s like I tried cocaine like three times but I did I wasn’t like into drugs you know like I just not even like morally I just like thought they
Were kind of stupid and like it wasn’t you know I I Um you know I was a competitive athlete you know in my college Years too and stuff I mean I just didn’t when I got when I started when I when I got into like pain pills like from a legitimate doctor at first you know because I I
Um I had a rare uh I suffered from a rare solid bone disease called Lake perthy’s disease and as I entered adulthood um it uh I developed early rheumatoid arthritis and as I got into my 30s it got really severe and um you know so in those days too in like the 2000s
Um this was before DEA was really paying they were kind of deliberately ignoring the fact that doctors were handing out very very heavy compounds like candy that doesn’t excuse me for being responsible with these things because I always I was always an educated consumer as it were like with
Respect to this kind of stuff I knew that things like delighted were heavily habit forming but at the same time like I said like my view of drugs my experience with them is that they’re just kind of [ __ ] stupid like I don’t really get anything out of them so like
What am I worried about right well I mean lo and behold like one day like I decided like okay I’m too reliant and allowed it I want to stop taking it and you know the next day I was so sick like I couldn’t get out of
Bed like let alone go to work okay I certainly just was it from the withdrawal then yeah like people think it’s just like it sounds like a big melodramatic but I it it’s like Indescribable if you have like a serious opiate addiction like what it’s like going to withdrawal like it’s
It’s not just like having the flu or like it’s I can’t even describe it man there’s a reason why guys just raise my guys like literally like murder people like make sure they don’t get sick like it’s that [ __ ] up like I thought people were lying when I was
Like before I developed a habit you know I I they’re not lying okay it’s it’s you can’t even imagine it like people I don’t I don’t know anything about alcoholism I I but I know that like alcohol withdrawal is like utterly horrible and can kill you that’s I’m sure that’s comparable
But otherwise like there were times like when I was in like court ordered like Outpatient Treatment where guys there’d be like kids over there you know who I got caught like doing some Molly or something like oh yeah like when I quit partying I know what it’s like it’s like
Bro you do not man like you do not [ __ ] know what it’s like like it’s you know like people saying like oh I did like meth and like it’s like bro you don’t have anything to stop doing meth you go to sleep for a couple days you know anyways like I’m not saying
Like these things aren’t like habit forming and some people have don’t have a problem with them but it’s not you keep doing dope when you don’t want to do it because the alternative is too [ __ ] horrible okay I mean like I’m not worse than death You could argue I
Suppose yeah so and also too like I had to go to work and stuff like I couldn’t just say like oh I’m not gonna I’m gonna quit life for the next six months so I can like get my [ __ ] straightened out see I started Doctor shopping and that
Worked for a few months but then but you know I mean by that point you know like the the pharmaceutical databases were all integrated I mean that that when that that that that got that that that is a short uh lifespan because like they figured out what I was doing you know
And then like I got flagged and I couldn’t I couldn’t get a prescription for even codeine you know and in Chicago unfortunately unfortunately there’s been an opioid crisis in Chicago since the 1950s okay like just there’s spots here that have been dope spots literally for 40 years and everybody knows where they are
And um you know I uh the one guy who’d uh you know who who I knew like who was kind of insinuated in the street life because he was from my same town like he wasn’t like some [ __ ] hood dude he like chose this [ __ ] but um I’m just
Like look man I’m in terrible shape I need to help and I didn’t think I need some pills it’s like no I can’t get no pills because I’m gonna take it to see somebody so uh he picks me up and we literally go to [ __ ] Kate on the west side you
Know and uh he introduces me to this dude you know uh and uh the dude sees on ill I am he hands me like a little [ __ ] he’s got a little foil here they they packaged dope and he’s like in foil generally because it’s China White there’s no [ __ ] tar yeah he’s got
Like a little bit of [ __ ] foil he’s like you know [ __ ] snort that you know and like I started cutting out a big line he’s like no no no no he cuts out like a tiny little bump you know he’s like take that much so I can take
This tiny little bump and like immediately like I’m no longer sick like I feel [ __ ] fine you know it’s like oh thank God man it’s like for like days I’d been I’d been like in Hell you know the other introduction to heroin you know um and I’m like this
Stuff only costs 10 bucks for like a big [ __ ] bag I’m like that’s incredible I’m like awesome you know it’s not like awesome I’m doing heroin but it’s like okay like now I can function again and I don’t need to [ __ ] with the pharmacy and
You know I I can keep this [ __ ] under control well you can’t keep that kind of [ __ ] under control and literally within a couple weeks you know like my tolerance was such that I could like snort a whole bag of that [ __ ] and like it would barely take my sick off wow you
Know so uh eventually you start shooting up because snorting doesn’t get your sick off anymore you know and then you know just goes from there and you know you wanna you wanna you wanna kick but it’s like you know again like you you’re not in a position generally where you
Can you know where you can kind of like put the brakes on a life for like a month or however long you need to like get yourself together and even if you are like it’s it’s a it’s a Dawning Prospect man be like like sit it out and
Be sick like I’ve done it you know what I mean like it’s um I I could never stick it out on a permanent basis and I mean short story long uh we’ll move on from this but I um you know I got I caught a slew of a rest
Uh all for [ __ ] narcotics you know uh um I got picked up with substantial wage I had about 50 bags on me um you know uh and I caught phony charges the judge had mercy on me because I I was just honest I’m like I got I got a [ __ ] serious habit
You know I’m like I’m not you know I’m like look I’m like you give me I’m like you give me 5 000 bags of dope I’m not giving them to anybody I’m keeping them you know the judge realized and plus I think in Chicago it’s like everybody
Well [ __ ] he said it was the most he said it was almost divided City by like ethnos he’d ever seen other than Belfast like they knew like nobody in Chicago even if like like basically like even if you’re a white dude like 50 bigs doesn’t like to a civilian that seems
Like a lot it’s not actually but even if I was caught with like a lot of dope in Chicago they’d be able to go get this white dudes not he’s doing something but he’s not you know he’s not like swinging dope or whatever he’s got problems but
He’s not yeah he’s not the problem in the community yeah and that’s the reality of it and Paul Stuart I’d like to think uh you know they look at my background and because I you know and the judge is like what’s like what’s going on with you
He’s like first of all he’s like you’re a dude in his 30s he’s like apparently you got a lot of great you know he’s like you don’t have any felony background I’m just like look I’m like hey you know I’m like I mean it’s very bad decisions in my life like relating
My own health and things and I’ve got like this [ __ ] habit you know um and I mean that was that and I because I was on felony probation for almost five years if I didn’t stop fighting with dope I would have gone to prison okay you know I got on the methadone
Treatment program I got I got to see like a regular doctor too like my arthritis and things you know that and that helped you know and uh the methadone doesn’t get you high so it you know it was an actual analgesic and it’s you know it helped me help me get off illicit
Drugs as well as like showing up my rheumatoid symptoms and making them manageable and I mean then but then it’s also just like other you know it’s just like something clicked man like I I my whole like mindset changed you know not not because of anything not saying
Like some like punctuated experience or something of uh or like something like Epiphany well it wasn’t like that but it’s just that everything changed like within a pretty rapid within a pretty short uh Window Man and like you know then and then like when I got off probation and
Stuff and it’s like started writing again on the line and I realized that like there was all these people who I guess over the years have been like reading my stuff and like that kind of blew my mind you know and then a bunch of people started reaching out to me
Like including like our different Peak canones you know and they they wanted me to like contribute to their content and at first I was like shy about it because I was always kind of self-conscious like people might think that’s weird because like I take a lot of selfies and I do
Kind of like goofy stuff you know but I like it’s you know but I but in terms of actually putting myself out there like this is my work product like this is what I think I was kind of like self-conscious about that because I I I just was
But then I got over there pretty quickly because um people were pretty supportive man um that sounds corny I mean like a genuine way like there was like people I respected like were like oh wow this is valuable like what you’re doing I think that that’s you know I think you’re on
To something with XYZ you know um and that uh where you’re writing actively then while during the heroin addiction yeah not in a way I I mean yeah because I I because I write compulsively like I don’t know what to do otherwise like that’s right that’s it’s been away
Yeah and it wasn’t like uh I mean it was there was different kind of stuff and so most of the time but yeah I I um some of it I’ve saved a lot of it I got rid of because I don’t want to think about it but yeah and I mean some of
That I’ve I’ve I’ve published online to air the fact but um but you know and then it’s like my wife kind of my life just like dramatically changed in 2020 like it long like left like Dolby and [ __ ] by that point but that was only like a year
And a half after I’d gotten off probation you know and like I like I said like that’s right when I came back to writing and and then when like everything changed man I’ve just I I you know I I um I monetize this content brand and started kind of doing this
Full time but uh you know people started inviting me places so I just kind of like started like periodically like going all over the country you know that’s what I was doing this past summer too and you know it just seems like that’s the path that God wants for me
Um I know some people think that sounds corny but um I that that’s that’s the only way I think it can be um characterized you know so that’s you know fast forward like three years from 2020 and like here we are now so that’s uh kind of my deal
Um you know I write I write science fiction I like to think of the science fiction I like my my primary kind of inspiration in that regard are guys like John stakeley and you know who would armor and um Frank Herbert and Shane Stevens you know I I think science
Fiction is a good medium to present philosophical ideas in novel form you know I’m working on a book uh on uh International jurisprudence since 1945 and you know the implications for that and and how you know it it represents a revolutionary paradigm um within which uh you know the
Political rights has quite literally been criminalized um you know I I’ve got this podcast um I uh I I just uh I’ve got a YouTube channel I was I was down in Vernal Utah like filming content for it um you know and so that’s I’m kind of transitioning the to more video content
Um and a beefed up and kind of sexed up the the production value of my pod so in season two that launches we’re gonna launch on Halloween season two with a mind phaser podcast I’m pretty excited about it man um you know and that’s this podcast was also was launched on
Halloween last year as well that’s awesome yeah I didn’t I didn’t mean to ramble but that’s that’s why you’re here I want I want to get the full full version of things for sure um so cool I don’t know that’s a really interesting backstory and it’s it’s
Almost like getting out of that heroin addiction like next thing you know you’re you know you’re getting contacted by people and I mean it’s probably been a couple years now that you’ve been doing these these podcast series with Pete and that which I know has really uh
Helped get a lot more attention to what you’re doing and certainly how I found you as well um so maybe we could I don’t know if it’s a smooth transition probably not so we’ll just Dive Right into uh the subject at hand here and um a lot of
Stuff I look into on this show is more of the uh the occult the esoteric type stuff and with your background and your knowledge uh about the Nazis and everything this seemed like the perfect you feel like the perfect person to come on and Tackle this subject so and I know
You have you definitely probably look at the entire uh that entire section of History not probably definitely uh much differently than the mainstream view so I’m not sure exactly what what kind of groundwork you think we should lay before we fully dive in but just maybe lay whatever groundwork you think would
Be necessary for people to understand that they might not get from their Sunday school I don’t know if you learn about Nazis and Sunday school but from the regular Public School upbringing or mainstream narratives or what have you um that will allow us to really understand and dive into the the sort of
Nazi obsession with the occult there’s a few things going on here I mean first of all there was and he is a propaganda Dimension to the way this is characterized that’s not the whole story obviously but casting the German Reich and the Germans themselves um particularly uh
I mean there’s an obvious uh there’s an obvious uh Prejudice held by you know zionists and their sympathizers uh you know they’re gonna cast Europeans generally in in German specifically and kind of the most uh villainous manner yeah imaginable but also to kind of paint them as you know exotically evil
Um but there’s also some of these uh some of these some of these germanophobic uh anglophone types you know particularly uh like some of these kinds of bizarre True Believers around around Churchill and what have you they they they really to try and characterize the Germans as being you
Know this kind of like not quite civilized like literally Pagan race and it was an incredibly bizarre when you consider that like the United Kingdom is is like literally Germanic you know but I mean it I’ll let aside um so there’s that however um the degree to which uh there were in our
Uh pre-rational pre-christian cultural strains uh symbols like Prime symbols um kind of like subtle and not so subtle conceptual reference points you know within European culture uh of a legitimately Pagan nature I mean that that is true okay and that’s not unique to Germany I really like uh the the old movie with
Um with Edward Woodward uh and Christopher Lee the Wicker man yeah I mean that’s a whole that’s that’s a that’s a brilliant film I’ve seen the Nicholas Cage it’s literally about okay no no avoid that at all costs but the the Wicker man uh with Edward Woodward it’s it’s quite literally about
Uh you know set on this uh like Isle of Man and the Isle of Man I think it’s quite literally about like the Interfaith tension between paganism and Christianity in Europe and when you’re dealing with truly ancient societies I mean I I don’t want to get into like a deep anthropological discussion like
About about race but um if you accept that the white race essentially has existed for 40 000 years okay in like rough terms okay I mean you’re talking about you’re talking about tens of Millennia of deep history um that shaped uh European peoples okay there’s going to be things within that genetic uh
Heritage um and uh and cultural inheritance that um are truly primordial okay now nowhere is this more kind of evidence uh than in uh Central Europe where um you know not only uh not only is Europe an indefensible Peninsula you know which is why the Germans evolved in the kind of the the
The perfect martial race but uh you know um the uh the the quite literal Collision of tribes ethnicities peoples you know uh gave rise to uh contemplation of you know what it means to be civilized and what it means to be the other and you know some of the later Crusades were
Quite literally against the uh against uh Baltic pagans and the lake okay the people who practice things like ritual human sacrifice you know okay like well into the era when we when we think of you know Europeans as being you know I mean life was obviously difficult in the Middle
Ages but you know but when we think of Europeans as being well beyond that kind of thing okay um So that obviously informed perspectives and finally um you know in the 20th century uh I’ve discussed this a lot in uh the context of historicism and you know conveying the kind of
Concrete particulars of the 20th century conceptual Horizon and the ideologies that it gave rise to and specifically the kind of um the kind of universal belief and and kind of like rationalist materialism you know in a material processes as as as Um you know as uh is is the ultimate cause of of not just history but of man’s Affairs and you know the source of uh of all uh of all higher life okay um it was just accepted by people that okay you know God is dead you know religion has been refuted by
You know the Advent of modern science you know uh we’re moving towards an Epoch or the planned Society is going to eliminate uncertainties you know like literally everybody believed this like now that’s laughable that’s why I like the new atheism that uh these kinds of pitiable types like uh
Like uh Dawkins and Hitchens like tried to kind of necromance after the Cold War like that that’s why that people’s view is like cringe and [ __ ] [ __ ] okay because like nobody nobody thinks that way anymore you know but in the 20th century everybody thought that way you know and
That’s that’s why Marxist leninism you know captured the Zeitgeist in the way that it did but kind of his response to that um people delved into these kinds of alternative like spiritual spiritual practices like some of which were very contrived you know some words were very much premised done like folk tradition
But no one really had a context you know I get a Great Gatsby uh Scott Fitzgerald parodies that because like Daisy Buchanan and her kind of flaky friends they go to like seances and stuff yeah like people actually did that [ __ ] like Eleanor Roosevelt like was into that
Kind of [ __ ] you know and you had um like you had guys who were like Society type people like Consulting astrologers yeah I was gonna say that’s kind of like what you’re talking about it’s interesting like because I I have this conception too of the the specifically
The Nazis being so involved in the occult and Hitler looking into these things because I’ve probably seen a million you know um History Channel documentaries and what have you but that kind of goes to what you’re saying earlier about sort of trying to you know villainize even more and make things
Look weirder and stranger on that end of things because you could do the same exact probably a story or a similar story about uh Eleanor Roosevelt FDR any kind of weird stuff they’re into as well so it really is also well that was what
I was going to say you know like so when you watch some like BBC documentary or something about like Rudolph has his flight and then and there’s like this there’s there’ll be like some Stern like British guy being like and Rudolph has believed in astrology you know like the
Monoi it’s like man like there was like astrologers like at every corner like in in like poor districts in London you know in some neighborhoods man like it’s like the you know like people just like believe in this stuff and we’ll get into this the mode but the
Man Hitler himself like like Hitler had no interest in this kind of thing he actually he he banned astrology after has his flight um like the practice of it I mean you know like for profit because he thought that this was like misleading people into foolish you know kind of
Distractions in the midst of a national emergency and like insinuating you know just kind of like like uh you know like primitive and and asinine ideas into kind of the national Consciousness you know like they’re like Hitler had no occult beliefs at all like none um the right sphere SS Himmler did and
We’ll get into that in a minute but you know there’s like there’s literally there’s some stupid old movie with uh I mean it’s ass and it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s I mean it’s it’s not it’s hilarious it’s uh like Alec Guinness like plays uh plays Hitler in it which
Is uh is kind of like a comically gross miscast but the um the uh it’s I believe it’s that where there’s there’s that one and there’s a movie called the plot to kill Hitler with Brad Davis from the 80s if only Hitler’s like looking at a star charge
But in the event there’s there’s almost caricatures Renditions of Hitler himself like reading star charts and you know seeking out like Mystics like that was completely at odds of reality and um Hitler was a deist in some basic sense um and he spoke uh at the Catholic Church
Um as being important culturally and he talked about you know Germany had a very uh Germany had a very brutally sectarian Heritage okay um and uh Hillary was uh that that understanding that is key to understanding Hillary’s a sentence because Hitler was a Habsburg Austrian Catholic
Um who presided over a coalition of uh you know Prussian uh like like pietist Lutheran Prussian officers um and uh you know uh like like the very in Catholic industrialists and um you know a uh and and um and then brought them together um under uh like within like a common
Coalition which is really quite remarkable and I made the point of people again and again too like in Hitler’s December 11th speech to the reichstag which in some ways is Hitler’s most significant um wartime speech uh one of the key takeaways he’s talking about the situation on the
Eastern front and he’s saying like we’ve been here before in 1813. when he says we the prussians were the only German state that joined Napoleon’s assault on Russia so Hitler’s identifying literally the German people with Prussia and again he’s like a Habsburg Catholic doing this
Um that’s and the fact that he could do so credibly like represent you know the German people is like a United people like I missed uh these kinds of competing confessional and and um and cultural practices is really remarkable but because it may yeah and we’ll dive into the meat of what exactly
The third reich’s relationship to occultism was in a moment but you know this idea like Hitler himself had no interest in these things at all but I will qualify it by saying that there is an uh a general tendency towards mysticism in the German culture you know Meister
Eckert’s is uh should be the most kind of familiar uh personage in that regard um but also like Lutheranism you know lutherans are definitely Protestants I mean they’re like they’re like the original Protestants but you know we talk about we talk about Bible Protestants you know uh like reform
Defenders as uh as distinguished from lutherans because lutherans really do have their own lore they really do their own like theology extrinsic to the Bible that is something that’s very very uniquely German you know and that’s and that’s that’s that’s precedent in all kinds of ways so
With that said like what exactly was what exactly was the third reichs relationship to occultism well as we’ve said you know in the in the inner War years there was a basic interest in this kind of stuff okay um and there were uh Heinrich Himmler uh in particular
Took an interest in this Himmler was something of a last Catholic like people made a lot of the fact that a lot of uh the street stockland’s um a lot of their kind of like rights and rituals like borrowed in their view from the Catholic Church that’s not really wrong okay but
Um frankly to Continental Europeans that’s what’s going to be familiar okay like speed like back to Hitler himself you know Hitler grew up uh Hitler grew up in a town that was literally like an ecclesiastical town like it was known for it it was known for churches you know it
Was known for you know kind of like Catholic religious life being kind of like the center of of sociality uh there was some kind of like Rich Baroque like uh architecture everywhere like everything about like the Habsburg Empire kind of like exuded that so I mean even like any
Man born in like the late 19th or very early 20th century you know from Bavaria like Himmler was or especially Hitler especially he was born you know like uh um in a place you know in in on the Austrian Frontier bordering Bavaria like when he thought about like high Optics
And he thought about cultivated Aesthetics he’d be thinking about like Baroque Catholicism okay but beyond that um Himmler wasn’t a wasn’t a crank in the way that he’s portrayed uh I mean if he whatever he could do with Hitler you can’t say that he didn’t have a great understanding and interesting for understanding of an instinct for delegation and uh Himmler would not have become
He would not have become like you know the the party and then the states like security Chief before he was 40 years old if he was so if he if it was if he was somebody who could not you know be trusted the the fall back upon reason as
His as his primary you know modality of of of problem solving um Himmler over did believe that you know very fervently um in spite of her breasts because because of the Epic in which he lived there had to be a strong spiritual Foundation uh to the racial State okay but it had
To be something authentic it could just be some cobbled together thing okay not just because people would see through that and because it would be susceptible to attack um you know from dissidents Within but uh you know he believed very much uh in the possibility of like a literal
Like racial memory and honestly so did Carl Jung and even today is you know epigenetic memory um it’s becoming clear that this is a real thing I mean it’s not some far-fetched thing okay um even though the even though the um the the methods and the tools to you know properly
Um investigate such things weren’t accent um in that era like it instinctively I mean it it’s like anybody who fascism saw a student of race in uh you know I’ve got the mystery of of human culture of the original language of of you know the the literal like origins of
Basic social order you know he’s going to contemplate you know that agree to which you know like literal memory these memory of these things is heritable you know so Himmler he had there’s pragmatic as well as you know kind of eccentric or purely like you know intellectual and esoteric reasons for
Him to seek out these things and a man who kind of insinuated himself into uh into himmler’s uh good graces uh was uh was a guy named Carl Maria vilguds like some people refer to him it’s kind of like the the National Socialist Rasputin uh I think that’s misguided for
A lot of reasons but um who was vilgit he was born in 1866 in Vienna um from a long line of uh of army officers bill got followed that tradition um he uh was commissioned in the Infantry uh served with you know massive distinction um you know for the abstract Empire
Was a World War one hero um you know enjoyed a succession of commands you know upon retirement he had a chest full of metals and uh he developed this really quite literally an obsession in retirement um for mythological subjects you know particularly related to race particularly related you know the German people um
He uh started claiming that he had he started claiming to possess ancestral Clairvoyant memory which literally enabled him to recall you know like the lives and experiences of his forebears thousands of years ago um he was literally having visions okay was he kind of like a a German Edgar
Casey type sort of somewhat but it was weirder because like again he was a pretty straight waste uh you know Habsburg uh army officer and um who again like he in in older age you seem to just kind of rapidly develop this sensibility which frankly if one
Believes in such things it it probably went to Creedence because it’s like okay here’s this kind of straight laced guy now he claims his ending visions and he’s uh and uh the Visions he described were incredibly elaborate um he uh um he described uh learning uh you know how to read the runes
You know from these Visions he was having the system that he worked out and wrote out and showed to people it was basically it was basically convergent with the one uh uh the one uh that was being promoted by Guido vandalist it was another kind of like vocish Mystic
You know and whether whether you accept the legitimacy of that kind of thing or not it was it was very strange the kind of convergence of of things like this okay that um it did not seem that he was faking it whatever was wrong with him or whatever he was you know experiencing
Um he uh there was a uh another man named Theodore sheffle who uh he was involved in a this group called the order of the new Templars which uh was kind of adjacent to the tool society as I think a lot of people the tool Society people make a lot of
The fact that uh you know they they they they they utilize the swastika um as their uh Prime symbol um and Hitler uh subscribed uh to their uh newspaper called ostara so his reason like oh Hitler was this you know Pagan Mystic or you know that’s why
You dropped in the swastika the swastika had all kinds of evocative power um just in terms like an everyday symbol you know particularly the Europeans um and frankly it just like looks cool and it’s memorable so I think people read too much into that I mean I know
They do but it uh so are you saying that there wasn’t really a deep esoteric uh meaning behind choosing the swastika was it more akin to just this [ __ ] looks cool and people kind of like died but it’s like in terms of no I mean I it it
Definitely you know it represents uh the solar cult you know it it it’s uh it’s a um it was it was a symbol of primordial Indo-European Origins like all those things but in deciding what to put on your flag you know Contra especially the hammer and sickle taking like a white
Disc on a blood red background and like a black swastika got an angle like that’s incredibly that grabs you and it just like looks cool you know I mean like the hammer and sickle also looks cool um but again too my point was that there was guys who were like entirely
You know I had no interest at all and like invokus stuff or you know occult belief structures uh or systems you know who who like who like uh fought and rode under the swastika you know uh I mean just because like it’s you know um it’s it’s a symbol that they
Felt uh compelled to attach themselves to uh for for various reasons of an aesthetical and historical nature but um my point was that the uh the esoteric occult meaning of it um is overstated and the decision to adopt it as the party standard um it uh it’s Villa uh got kind of
Um is he Associated more and more with these with these order the new Templar types and Chapel um he uh he uh he told them you know he basically gave them his uh his narrative that he’d been developing or that he’d been you know availed to through his uh Visionary experiences
That he was he was the bearer of a secret line of of like the original German race and we’ll get into what he meant by that in a moment um you know and that uh and and that not only you know Was Not only was he a a bearer of that bloodline
Um in general terms but uh he was one of the last bearers of the noble line of you know the kind of root race um he uh he said that he had he said that his vision sold him that in an Imperial Palace at goslar
Um lay a crown that you know that that if recovered could like prove his claims um and then like a sword belonging to his lineage could be found in a stone grave at uh steinmonger I mean like really like very crazy very crazy seeming stuff but again like elaborate
And specific enough to the point that you know especially considering the declarant again villigant was you know the guy was a war hero who you know wore the uniform in a command capacity for 40 years you know he gave people pause when he began saying these kinds of things
And again too like this was not there’s an awesome guy you know running around and in like dirty rags you know just kind of like saying and Confused generalities like God’s talking to him he described these elaborate religious practices military organizations constitutional Arrangements societal practices you know like Visionary kind
Of like Vistas and things like that he was supposedly receiving through these Visions you know and uh it it really Drew people in you know um it gets really strange with the Crux of what uh like a villaget’s kind of whole like encompassing ideology was if we can
Or like see it yeah like kind of like religious ideology basically what he stated was that look he’s like essentially all the religious techs you’re familiar with including the Bible you know he’s like these things came originally from you know kind of like the indo-aryan uh Homeland okay um
Like like hundreds of thousands of years ago okay you said the original theory he said the original Aryan religion was urbanist uh which was distinct and and uh and opposing uh odinism and we’ll get into that what I mean by or what he meant by that in a moment
Um and he said the Christian religion later part of this they bastardize it deliberately but part of it was they just misunderstood it because this has lost to history for reasons we’ll get into in a minute um essentially he said that um originally uh the universe was created
By a single Supreme Being you know there was one God and the ancient tutons you know the people who were like the the progenitors of this urbanist religion like uh they they understood they had a pantheistic view but but it was but it was but they believed in like a United
God their conception of the cosmos was totally opposed to the polytheism of odinism okay he claimed the stretch back to the late Neolithic like when the Aryans first like arrived in Central Europe you know he said uh the ancient tudons they prayed only only to the single God and to their ancestors
And uh the Christians later this took this for the idolatry of the sword that they encountered among the Greeks and the Romans you know what it traditional hard polytheism for lack of a better way to characterize it okay and uh he said subsequently the conflict emerged between like odinis or votanists and you
Know like the true bearers the Aryan religion um owing to the corruption of foreign influences was it altered like the Teutonic conception of you know the root race religion of urbanism or whatever um you know and they and and and the concept that God was was was literally fractured and those corrupted and
Presumably what he was talking about was that a kind of poly the polytheism we discussed that was within this Paradigm practice you know among the Greeks and Romans uh like Celts and other Aryans who’d been who who you know and and and and especially peoples who’d you know
Encountered uh the Roman the grego Roman ways in the Middle East you know as they returned to Europe uh what villegate referred to as the sea peoples the late Bronze Age like these are the people who carried with them like this kind of like bastardized odinism okay and Billy get claims that uh
Who they brought with them was as they’re kind of like occulted leaders or like this corrupt priesthood that ultimately became the Catholic Church okay so these like disguised odiness and the Catholic church in Europe they said about like wiping out you know like the um you know the uh the the urbanist or
Whatever you know like original like a root race like Priestly Warrior cast of whom of course like they’ll get declared himself to be like you know what are the one of the last remaining uh representatives of you know in terms of his bloodline um and uh
You know so basically he was saying that like everything everything you think about European Origins uh you know the kind of uh you know about like Halsted like archaeological cultures you know and these influences from Greece and like Thrace you know which is modern Bulgaria you know he’s like all this stuff he’s
Like you’re misreading you know the reality of of what of like the Aryan you know uh of of like of like you know the Aryan Heritage okay um the chronology also began around a quarter million years ago okay when there was like multiple suns in the sky the Earth is populated by like
Proto-humans by monsters by like beings that we consider to be mythical but that you know you find reference to and like Arcane text because these things actually existed now this seems totally insane but there’s just enough there particularly at a time when you know archaeological digs were uncovering uh you know all
Kinds of stuff you know like from ancient animal fossils of like monstrous beasts to like very very strange uh you know and and remarkably intact you know kind of like funerary structures of like ancient societies you know this kind of there’s like fertile ground this kind of stuff and again
Like crazy as it seemed uh villager wasn’t just again he wasn’t he wasn’t he wasn’t just like some it wasn’t just like some of a hobo or he wasn’t even like some like a kind of like kind of like Court crank like diagonies this guy was like a war hero of noble pedigree
You know who had like a lot of clout and um you know it’s it uh at worst you know it inspired like a a kind of grudging tolerance that best you know like an actual reverence to some kind of uh you know some kind of uh like racial Prophet
Um who uh you know might be speaking in riddles but who carried with him some like fundamental truth about you know uh about um about the blood like literally of European peoples and uh Himmler had taken an upon himself to uh to uh develop a uh
Like it like like like like and and an anthropological and archaeological capability within the shoe snuffle itself um not for reasons like Steven Spielberg would ever believe because like he thought the Spear of Destiny he was gonna like shoot lasers out and destroy the enemies of the Reich or something
Like that but it uh there had to um the Third Reich was not like the Soviet Union it was not like this top-down Revolution where everything was wiped away and a party State apparatus just conquered everything you know uh the third the the the Third Reich was constituted by a National Socialist Party
Um that was a plurality uh uh faction in a in a governing coalition as time went on its power mandate dramatically increased and cannibalized a lot of previously independent or even opposing uh cabinet offices and administrative uh power bases but uh that owed largely to the exigence
He’s a war and the the massive support for Hitler himself but it did uh you know some kind of grand Mandate of the party you know so it uh the party always found itself competing with the apparatus estate and pre-existing structures like some of which were very harmoniously assimilated
Into kind of the authority structure uh some of which uh there was now hostility between um the party and the state and him were uh and was was more aware of this than anybody because uh you know he’d been saddled with the unenviable task of bringing all the police agencies
Within the Reich uh out of the authority of of the shoe Stafford which is one could imagine was not particularly popular um among uh you know the several uh States of uh and principalities that constituted Germany but uh what he also realized is that within the Third Reich and owing knew
You know not just these kinds of The Peculiar kind of agonistic pluralism of the other uh you know of the of the State itself and the kind of you know dynamic tension which between the party Everest and and the state he also realized that uh you know there had to
Be the party had to have its own capability to kind of you know good tribute to if not outright dominate you know like intellectual narratives you know and that meant that the SS had to do things other than just you know field like crack military forces in the
Form of the bathroom SS and you know represent you know kind of the sword and shield of the party in the form of the algomine SS and the police and he has a d okay so you know and finally too you know if the SS was supposed to constitute you know a night
Literally a nightly order you know and uh a new a new Vanguard of literally of racial Vanguard of Europe okay um and for men to be initiated into this Brotherhood uh this you know nightly fraternity you know you had to educate them uh on uh on on racial matters and
First and foremost that meant you know cultivating understanding of of deep racial anthropology okay um so Himmler said about uh to develop a capability within the structure the SS itself and uh he made uh an idiot Queen upon meeting the acquaintance of a of uh of yoga uh he uh
He gave him you know he bestowed upon him the the rank of uh hopster fear which uh was approximately commensurate with his retirement rank a colonel ultimately he’d enjoy the rank of Brigade Fury which was the equivalent of General in the SS upon the personal recommendation of
Himmler but uh he consulted to The Village on a wide range of issues and it uh from the the famous Toten cough honor ring that uh you know SS men all received uh bill got had designed that uh the conception of wevelsberg uh and the order castles and generally
Um they’ll got uh these uh ideas largely came from vilgud uh the kind of ceremonial Aura um in Optics the SS this all came from vilga um over time uh he lost favor with him or he was going to quietly retired he was quite elderly
By the end of his uh you know kind of formal association with uh the shoe staffel anyway but uh it’s um you know it’s it’s yeah I mean you only got one or two ways like the I mean people like to portray it as you know like oh well you know
Yoga became even too much of a Mad fool even for him Lord that’s I think it will attended to like use people I I’ve got a more Turtle view the right experience that’s admitting um but uh it’s indisputable that he tended to exploit people uh
To the for what they could for what he felt they could contribute to the institution of the SS um and once that was fully realized generally he didn’t have much use for them anymore I believe that’s the way to understand uh feel good um and his relationship to this huge stuff
Um I realized there was like a lot there just now um it uh we can get into kind of and I didn’t mean to like totally dominate the conversation but we can no that’s that’s why I want you here because you have the knowledge about
This stuff um yeah so I’m curious I want to dig maybe a little bit more and we’ll save a little bit for the smoke-filled room and get into some other areas but I wanted to dig a little more into the the archaeological aspect of things because
Again I think a lot of my view is probably just the Indiana Jones uh version of it the Steven Spielberg um to gain this power from these devices but to what extent what were Himmler and and the Nazis actively participating in archaeological type stuff to actually
Find some of the stuff whether it’s the spirit Destiny like you mentioned or the Ark of the Covenant to what extent where is that actually going on and to what end I mean it was uh the Tibet Mission uh which was actually uh there was a film with Brad Pitt like about that
Expedition which is it was strange they made that film because like it’s not um you know it’s it’s peculiar data and it was like an American movie house or Studio that that that produced it but it uh again yeah that’s it yeah yeah a lot of the stuff I mean that the primary
Um a lot of this Elias was uh you know kind of like the basic uh just kind of like in the basic interest of anthropology itself as was going on in all developed countries in the world you know but before uh before the capability existed uh you know map human genetics uh like
Quite literally studying uh insular remote populations taking note of the racial quite literally their morphological and racial characteristics you know taking note of their linguistic Heritage and you know by kind of painstaking process of comparative analysis you know saying like where did these people come from what are their
Origins you know I mean things like that um part something that if if you look at the Third Reich is you know Hitler’s Enterprise being you know Hitler the artist wanted to mold Europe into something aesthetically uh and historically Splendid as well as guaranteeing its literal like racial
Survival and posterity amiss kind of like the long spiritual and existential crisis of Europe um that entails certain uh that that that entails certain uh priorities okay one of which was making Germany quite literally you know Europa Germania Europa one else is making it kind of
Like the like you know kind of uh Hub of the Civilized world you know despite what people say about like oh the Nazis were looting artwork well America was bombing Europe into the Stone Age and annihilating it okay so taking artwork and precious things that can’t you know
That that are you know that are irreplaceable if destroyed and housing them in safe places you know was one thing that you know Berlin decided was imperative but even before uh the onset of the war of annihilation against Europe there’s understanding that you know Germania is going to be the capital of
The world quite literally I mean a civilized world at least you know we’re gonna be we’re gonna want to be able to Showcase artifacts you know kind of telling like the story of our not just our races primordial Origins but you know being able to show people you know these like
You know these These are large these archaeological Marvel’s mind from far and wide on this planet you know um and searching for the Ark of the Covenant was supposedly the Ethiopians have I mean I know I have no idea which people can take from that what they will
Uh I’ve heard a lot of weird stories about that too yeah there’s stories of that one being guarded and and the people guarding it having like radiation poisoning and all this weird stuff but that’s a whole nother that’s a whole nother yeah yeah but it’s but I mean the uh
There’s archaeologists trying to find the area of the Covenant that’s not weird and you know whether you’re talking about Englishmen or Americans or Frenchmen or Germans and they say the word I mean finally over the Covenant would be incredible not because like oh ghost will come out of it it’s minor
Enemies because like if it exists it’s an amazing freaking artifact okay I mean this is uh this is pretty clear and it um but most of uh most of the most these Expeditions and more prosaic I mean I think this stuff’s fascinating but it’s it was mostly like
There’s pictures of um Lenny Rife installs even uh in tow on one of them like you know because he’s taking the photographs you know it’s like it’s her and her assistant you know some like little kid in uh in some uh on this you know like toward like a um
It’s not in Romania but it might it might have been Bulgaria you know like out now in like out in the country you know and they’re there’s like some like little gypsy kid or like Roma if you only politically correct you know they’re like you know kind of
Documenting the kids eye color and like you know their features and stuff you know like it’s you know basically the kind of stuff that uh you know any any American University would have been doing too I mean at the same time approximately it’s um the uh and that’s one of the things I’ve
I’ve wondered myself like I uh um I’m uh I’m uh I’ve always thought of weird that like people like view like Germany as being like exotic somehow I mean like America’s like so like it’s only like 40 of like the white people in America are like literally like German and like uh you
Know in horror and part like myself included I’m like overwhelmingly like Anglo and uh like almost for Scott but like I I like my mom was like half German okay um it uh you know it’s like how you know we’re not talking about we’re not talking about Arabs or Chinese or even
Like Russians it’s like it’s like well I don’t know it seems secure to me that people can cast like like when like middle American like white people can like cast the Germans it’s kind of like this like exotic kind of like strange race for like strange ways and beliefs
You know it’s like it’s like they’re just like you you look the same as you we just maybe yeah they made things a little funnier or something like that yeah yeah yeah yeah no I was gonna say I really I really appreciate the the overview here because
There’s a lot here I think a lot of this too is what’s interesting to me is it’s like you were saying it’s kind of like if if any other country or any other government that we look at historically without so much uh venomous fervor we’re doing some of these things there
Wouldn’t be a whole hoopla about it be like oh yeah they’re just doing archaeological stuff they’re they’re looking for what any archaeologist would want to find um there’s not necessarily like you said this uh you know this deep villainous sort of aspect to it that gets transplanted on it after the fact
When we get sort of like you said the Steven Spielberg version of things well it’s also there’s something and I want to I want to take a break in just a minute it’s going to stretch my legs we’ll wind down then we’ll save the rest
For the bonus show yeah yeah no I um you know and I’m sure let’s put some people off they don’t care but it’s like you know the reason why I got collect like all kinds of Nazi stuff and like I wear a lot of Nazi stuff it’s just like cool
And sometimes there’s not any reason for things other than that it’s cool it’s like oh why are you having a Torchlight parade because it’s [ __ ] cool you’re like why why why why are you building a big statue of uh of Odin because it’s [ __ ] cool you know like why like why
Why like why why why why why you you know why are you studying kind of like a primordial origin like Bronze Age origins of uh of Aryan man it’s pretty cool you know because it’s like it’s more exciting than you know I like counting beans that’s why yeah I mean
Sometimes it sounds like I’m being crudely facetious but some things are that simple yeah I know I mean that’s that’s half of this show is I I dive into certain areas maybe there’s deeper reasons for some of it but a lot of it is just like oh I think this thing’s
Pretty cool to talk about yeah yeah we don’t have to think about it that that much more deeply uh Thomas has been it’s been awesome talking to you we’re gonna save a little bit more of this conversation for this build room bonus segment we’ll come back in just a minute
For that uh but uh before we wind down I know you’re on substack you got some YouTube stuff just feel free to let everybody know what the easiest way to find all your work is I mean the One-Stop kind of shop for to find my content is my website it’s
Thomas77.com number seven hmas 777.com you can find me on sub stack you know that’s where the Pod is and that that basically like keep up with me like uh like what we’re doing when I say we like the people I associate with we do a lot
Of stuff like in real space you know uh we’re I think it was Cadre building but we do like fun stuff so that’s always posted up there um like we’re gonna do a cemetery walk at uh like Graceland Cemetery here in shy town like for Halloween and you know stuff like that
Um but the main things that’s what the podcast is too and that we can find like other like semi-law informed content of mine it’s um Thomas 777 uh it’s real thomas77.substack.com you can find me on X formerly Twitter uh real capital r e a l underscore number seven hmas 777
Um MIT Graham is Thomas Graham seek and he shall find um you know like I uh but yeah like I said basically uh hit me up on sub stick and hit me up on that website and uh you know you can find what I’m up to and the
Channel the YouTube channel is Thomas TV number seven hmas uh TV and uh it’s not populated by much now but in in the next few weeks that’ll change so be like looking out for that all right Thomas thank you so much we’ll dive a little bit deeper into some of
The stuff in the Smoke Filled Room in just a minute but thanks so much for coming on my show thank you all right friends I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Thomas 777 a man who has become somewhat of a legend in his own right uh on the
Internet over the years in certain little circles and it’s sort of seeing a bit of a revitalization due to his very very extensive series of podcasts he’s done with friend of the show Pete Quinones I can’t recommend highly enough just heading over to the Pete quiniana
Show feed free plug P typing in Thomas 777 and just starting from the beginning because they have done if you’re interested in this sort of thing and if you’re interested uh in history World War II and Thomas’s unique perspective on this kind of thing so check that out
And this conversation continued in the smoke-filled room man I wish I knew I wish I knew how Wild it was going to get because we just started scratching the surface and getting a little wild and crazy we talked about UFOs we talked about skin walker Ranch we talked about metaphysical spiritual experiences
Visions all sorts of weird and wild stuff I had an awesome time in the Smoke Filled Room With Thomas 777 you can get that by becoming a mark Claire show premium subscriber so many ways to do this I forgot to mention I now have this
Set up on YouTube as well you can become a members only subscriber on YouTube there should be buttons to click uh I’ll do my best to keep up with the bonus shows and everything also going on YouTube as well now that I got that running I’m still working on Apple
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Conversation until next time in case I don’t see you good afternoon good evening and good night [Applause]
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