Our Lady of Zeitoun (Egyptian Apparition, Coptic Church) – Jimmy Akin’s Mysterious World

Jimmy Akin’s Mysterious World is brought to you by the Star Quest production Network and is made possible by our many generous patrons if you’d like to support the podcast please visit sqpn Tocom you’re listening to episode 283 of Jimmy ain’s Mysterious World where we look at mysteries from the Twin perspectives of faith and reason in this episode we’re talking about our lady of zetune I’m Dom banelli and joining me today is Jimmy Akin hey Jimmy howdy Dom the Christian faith has a long history

In Egypt around the year 1 BC Joseph and Mary took the baby Jesus to Egypt to keep him from being killed by Herod the Great Christianity came back to Egypt after Jesus’s Ministry and St Mark the author of The Gospel is credited with being its first patriarch but in 196 8

Something strange began happening in zetune a suburb of Cairo Witnesses reported the Virgin Mary was appearing at a local church she appeared more than 90 times the apparitions involved dramatic displays of light and these were even photographed it’s estimated more than a million people saw the apparitions making them the most

Witnessed Maran apparitions in world history where is zetune what was the Virgin Mary reported to do there and were these genuine apparitions that’s what we’ll be talking about on this episode of Jimmy yakin’s Mysterious World so Jimmy what do we want to say before we begin well I want to say a

Thank you to uh Ibrahim Yousef K of Cairo um he is an Egyptian man who uh for some time has done some sponsoring of mysterious world he just wanted to supported and he didn’t ask for a you know business to be mentioned on the show or anything anything like that he

Just wanted he’s just a fan of the show and just wanted to support it and he suggested that we do this episode which is one that I’ve been meaning to do for a long time anyway so special thanks to Ibrahim YF so we’ve done a lot of mysteries set

In Egypt on mysterious world but most of them have been set in ancient times this is the first we’ve done in Egypt that’s set after the time of Christ what should we know about the history of Christianity in Egypt it’s very old uh as you said in the introduction the Holy

Family visited Egypt to avoid the slaughter of the Innocents Judaism has an even older history than Christianity in Egypt going all the way back to the Book of Genesis when the Patriarchs visited Egypt then the whole people of Israel went to Egypt in an event known as the isus and several hundred years

Later they came back in the event known as The Exodus which we talked about in episode 166 which was specifically on The Exodus and we’ll also talk about the date of The Exodus in a future episode we also recently mentioned in episode 241 on mummies how the patriarch Jacob

Also known as Israel himself and the patriarch Joseph were mummified after their deaths later uh Jewish people had a lot of dealings with Egypt because it was a major superpower that was right next door uh when Alexander the Great conquered Egypt in the 300s BC he set up

The city of Alexandria and named it after himself it became the capital of the Greek or pic pharaohs and a large Jewish community formed in Alexandria the beginnings of the septuagenarian at least one book of the Bible the book of wisdom was likely written in Alexandria and the Jewish

Philosopher Pho lived there in the 1 Century BC and the 1st Century a ad starting in the 2 Century BC and for about 300 years afterwards there was also a second Jewish temple besides the one in Jerusalem that was operating in leontopolis in the Delta of the uh in

The Delta of the Nile river in Egypt so all the Jewish activity in Egypt in the time leading up to Christ made Egypt a good place for evangelization and who’s credited with evangelizing Egypt according to tradition St Mark the companion of Paul and Peter and the author of The Gospel

Brought the message of Christianity to Egypt and he’s regarded as the first Archbishop of Alexandria Egypt became a major Center of Christian activity in the early church and it gave us famous early Christian figures such as Clement of Alexandria origin St athanasius and St Anthony and the desert Fathers as

Well as patriarch sirel of Alexandria who is a doctor of the church in the Catholic church it was Christianity that finally ended Egyptian paganism when the Greeks conquered Egypt under Alexander they didn’t stop the worship of the Egyptian gods instead they integrated with it but the message of Jesus finally

Displaced the Egyptian Pantheon and by the ad. 300s most Egyptians were Christians unfortunately in 641 ad Arab Muslims conquered Egypt and Christians in Egypt have been subject to persecution forced conversion and heavy taxes since then but Egyptian Christians have kept the faith and the Christian Community that is of Egyptian origin is

Known as the Coptic Community they are not Arabs and they use the lurgical language Coptic which is a direct descendant of the ancient Egyptian language though with influences from Greek uh for example after buying a Coptic dictionary a number of years ago I noticed that the Coptic word for

Governor is based on the Greek word for governor Honus uh but its basis the basis of the Coptic language is ancient Egyptian and you can still hear lots of ancient Egyptian words in Coptic for example the Coptic word for King which is derived from the same root as Pharaoh is

Pronounced EP oo and you can hear how eporo sounds like Pharaoh they also the Copic people maintain their own traditions for example they uh keep their own lurgical calendar which is based on the ancient Egyptian calendar it has 12 months of 30 days each plus a special 5-day month at

The end of the year and that’s like the ancient Egyptian calendar the years of the calendar are also counted from the year 284 which was the year that the Roman Emperor Diocesan took office and began martyring Christians so the current year ad or anodin or the year of

The Lord 2023 on the Gregorian calendar corresponds to am or ano martyrum or the year of the martyrs 1739 on the Coptic calendar you will hear some Coptic dates in this episode in any event after the Arab Conquest the majority of Egyptians were still Christians uh though they

Ceased being the majority by the 1300s today around 15% of Egyptians are still Coptic Christians most cops are Oriental Orthodox though there is a small Catholic Coptic Church which is one of the Eastern Catholic churches the term Oriental means Eastern the Orient is the East so if most cops are Oriental

Orthodox does that mean that they are Eastern Orthodox uh surprisingly no the Eastern Orthodox communion of Christians and the Catholic Church separated basically in the 11th century and the Oriental orthodox communion is older than that in that case the separation goes back to the Council of caladan in ad.

451 the dispute at the time had to do with how to properly Express the relationship between Christ’s Divinity and his Humanity the way the supporters of caldan expressed it was to say that Christ has two Natures that are united together a divine nature and human nature they were particularly concerned

To avoid an error that was attributed to the patriarch of Constantinople a man named nestorius who was perceived as dividing Christ into two persons one Divine and one human though noorus himself actually didn’t believe that and he died in good standing with the church the calcedonian fathers were also

Concerned to reject what they believed was an error attributed to nesto nestorius opponent udes who was perceived as teaching that Christ had only one nature alone that was a fusion of the Divine and human or that even caused the human to be lost in the Divine the Greek word for

Alone or only is monos and the Greek word for nature is fusus so supporters of udes came to be known as monophysites after the idea that Christ had one Divine human nature alone but not everyone preferred the language that the Council of caldan proposed the Oriental Orthodox were concerned

That the way cidan expressed things could be perceived as splitting Christ in two Unfortunately they were then accused of being monophysites and supporters of udes though they actually condemn udes and they also reject the term monophysite uh they describe their own position as miaphysitism from the Greek word Mia meaning one the idea

Being that Christ has one nature that un ites the Divine and human without either being confused with the other or without eliminating the other the good news is that it has subsequently been realized that despite the historical division following caldan we really aren’t in disagreement here we simply use

Different language to express the unity and the distinction of the Divine and the human in Christ and the leaders of our churches have subsequently signed a joint have subsequently signed joint confessions of faith in Christ for example in 1973 the Catholic Pope Paul v 6 and the

Coptic Pope shinuda III signed a common declaration that dealt with the topic in it they declared we confess that our Lord and God and savior and king of us all Jesus Christ is perfect god with respect to his divinity perfect man with respect to his Humanity in him his

Divinity is united with his Humanity in a real perfect union without mingling without conviction without confusion without alteration without division without separation his divinity did not separate from his Humanity for an instant not for the twinkling of an eye he who is God Eternal and invisible became visible in the flesh and took

Upon himself the form of a servant in him are preserved all the properties of the Divinity and all the properties of the humanity together in a real perfect indivisible and Inseparable Union so the good news is that even though we have historically used different language to express our faith

In Jesus we agree on the substance and this is this issue has basically been put to rest and the Catholic Church the Oriental Orthodox church and the Eastern Orthodox church and the Assyrian Church of the East are all working towards restoring Unity we share the same faith

We all share Apostolic succession and we all share share the seven sacraments as a sign of Fraternity in 1968 the Catholic Pope Paul v 6 returned some relics of St Mark to the Coptic Church they had been stolen in ad. 828 by a couple of merchants of Venice

So yes actual merchants of Venice uh reportedly they stole them to keep them safe from the Islamic governor in Alexandria and they were then kept in the Basilica of St Mark in Venice but to commemorate the 1900th anniversary of St Mark’s martyrdom Pope Paul v 6 returned some of them to the

Coptic Pope cillos I 6 in 1968 which was considered an important event in Egypt incidentally in case the name cillos sounds familiar it’s the English equivalent of cirel so you may sometimes see Pope cillos referred to as Pope cill you referred to the leader of the

Coptic Church in 1968 as Pope kill i 4 and its leader in 1973 as Pope shinuda III that may be unfamiliar to some listeners who only think of the bishop of Rome as Pope so how does the title Pope work the title Pope comes from the

Word Papa which means father and in the early centuries it was used for many Christian leaders in the form Pope it is still used for the bishop of Rome and for the patriarch of Alexandria so they’re referred to both of them as popes the Coptic Pope and the the

Catholic pope incidentally we mentioned uh the Coptic Pope in episode 106 part two of our discussion of St Thomas aquinus and the Occult because whenever there’s a vacancy in the office the Coptic Church uses a form of sorage to select a new pope uh this is based on

The practice of the Apostles in Acts one when they replaced Judas uh the cop the apostles at that time named two good candidates to replace Judas and then consulted God about which one he want wanted by drawing lots that practice of drawing lots to determine God’s will is

Known as sorage or cleromancy and it isn’t something you should do all the time because God hasn’t promised to give an answer to us in just any situation by that means so don’t try to use it in your ordinary life but based on the apostolic precedent it’s used to select

The new Coptic Pope uh they determine three good candidates they put their names on slips of paper in a chalice which is put on the Altar and then they say the Divine Liturgy or mass and select the name of the new pope the current pope is his Holiness Tadros

II now that we have some background in Egyptian Christianity let’s talk about The Apparition of Our Lady of zetune when did it begin in 1968 and to understand what was going on in Egypt we need to go back a year in time to 1967 in June of 196 7 an event took

Place known as The Six Day War because that’s how long it lasted it was fought between Israel and several other states which included Egypt Jordan and Syria in his biography of Pope cillos a silent patriarch Daniel fenus writes in response to Egypt secretly mobilizing forces along the border Israel launched

A preemptive strike against the Egyptian airfields within moments the greater part of the Egyptian Air Force was destroyed simult mously an Israeli ground offensive at the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula caught the Egyptian Army by surprise inflicting heavy losses and mass confusion fewer than a thousand Israeli soldiers were killed compared to

Over 20,000 of the Arab forces in just 5 days the Air Force was decimated tens of thousands killed the Sinai Peninsula seized and tangible assets obliterated and national pride and Regional credibility abrogated Egyptian president abdal nasser’s regime was discredited and his policies devalued unable to Bear the seismic failure and embarrassment the

President in a public broadcast on June 9th stepped down but the people of Egypt demanded that he retract his resignation and Pope cillos helped convince him to remain in office unfortunately the defeat in the six- day War caused problems for the Coptic Community fenus writes the cops suffered on two fronts

In the Fallout of the war standing alongside their Muslim Brethren They too had lost fathers husbands and Sons but that did little to silence the accusations of Christian Espionage the Coptic church was after all a member of the World Council of churches which happened to support the founding of

Israel at the same time religious sentiments were slowly resurrected From the Ashes many felt the war was a punishment for a lack of faith and in Egypt the reemergence of Faith could in an instant radicalize and Spark sectarian violence tensions swiftly intensified Nasser was compelled to publicly praise the bravery and

Patriotism of Coptic soldiers to soften somewhat the increasing accusations from the Muslim Brotherhood so in 1967 Egypt was suffering and the Coptic people were particularly vulnerable but then on the night of Tuesday April 2nd 1968 something strange happened the Story begins at a municipal garage owned by the public transportation Authority

Uh the garage was on uh Taman Bay Street in zetune a suburb of the Capitol Cairo across the street from the garage is the Church of the Virgin Mary a Coptic Parish the church had been dedicated in 1925 so it was about 43 years old it had

Been built by a man Nam named taik KH ibraim and it’s reported that the Virgin Mary had appeared to him and said that she would appear in 40 years at the church he built in memory of her the event in 1968 began at 8:30 a.m. and the first person to noticed something was

Happening was the night Watchman of the garage a man named Abdul aiz Ali he saw a brightly liid object above the Dome of the church and shouted light over the Dome this caused three of the mechanics at the garage to become involved their names were faruko Muhammad atwa Hussein

Awad and yakut Ali all three of them happen to be Muslims according to an account published in Francis Johnson’s booklet zetune 1968 to 1971 Rush Hour was over and the only sign of activity in the Gathering dusk was a solitary car and several women pedestrians in the lampl street suddenly

There was an unexpected movement on the middle Dome of the church which attracted the attention of the women two of the workmen by the garage gate put down their mugs of tea and stared up in mute disbelief at what seemed to be a white lady kneeling beside the cross at

The top of the Dome there was a flurry of agitated Whispering shot through with a rising Tremor of alarm one of the workmen Faruk Muhammad atwa a Muslim pointed up with a bandage finger which he was due to have amputated the next day as a result of gang green and cried

Out with compelling urgency believing it was a young girl about to commit suicide lady don’t jump don’t jump impelled by a sense of desperation he dashed off to call the fire brigade and the rescue squad while several of his companions ran across the street to summon a priest a father Constantine

Musa actually according to one of the workmen they first summoned the church doorkeeper in faruk’s own words we saw a figure dressed in white on top of the Dome of the church I thought she was going to commit suicide and shouted to her to be careful my friend called the

Police and I woke up the doorkeeper he comes out and looks and cries it is the Virgin and runs to call the priest the parish priest father Constantine Musa described his experience I was at home only steps from the church when Ibrahim the doorkeeper came in very distressed

Saying St Mary has appeared on the Dome I went myself and saw an illuminated half body of St Mary some of the bus depot workers directed spotlights in her Direction but she illuminated more back to Johnston’s account at that moment the lady Rose to her feet revealing herself as a luminous being

Dressed in shimmering Robes of light one of the women below cried out with electrifying comprehension satena maram Our Lady Mary hardly had the cry escaped her lips when a flight of glowing white doves seemed to appear from from nowhere and hover around The Apparition after several moments the extraordinary

Tableau faded into the darken Sky leaving The Spectators stupified and speechless according to a book that the Coptic patriarch had commissioned to commemorate the 50th anniversary of The Apparition in 2018 the policemen arrived quickly and a crowd of passers by began to gather as the crowd gathered the girl’s appearance

Started to change the scene that was revealed to the crowd showed a beautiful girl surrounded by a white Heavenly light clothed in a white robe and holding branches of Olive Tree in her hand suddenly a swarm of pure white doves flew over her head it was at this

Moment that they all realized that this scene was of spiritual and Heavenly origin in his book a silent patriarch Daniel fenus writes a crowd began to gather the police arrived and attempted to disperse them stating that the so-called apparition was merely an illusion caused by the reflection of the adjacent street lights

They duly proceeded to break the offending lights but The Apparition only became more intense one of the people who investigated The Apparition was an American professor of anthropology at the American University of Cairo her name was Cynthia Nelson and she reports according to those I later interviewed who were present during those first

Hours and days the police did arrive on the scene and the mamur police chief attempted to disperse the crowds saying that the so-called Apparition was but the reflection of the lights from the street lamps and commenced to break the lights the light of the Dome remained

And the vision of the Virgin became even clearer the mamur became frightened and said that he wanted nothing more to do with this While others came closer to be sure of what they saw thus reported a Coptic woman in her early 50s who witnessed The Apparition along with her two teenage daughters

And according to the account in the Coptic patriarch’s book in order to be certain Beyond any doubt they aimed lights at the Luminous image but it only increased in brightness and Clarity then they broke the street lights located close to the church but the Luminous image did not disappear finally they

Turned off the lights in the whole area but the girl in her Heavenly Splendor and her luminous robe only appeared more clearly and she began moving in a circle of light that radiated from her body onto all of her surroundings it became clear to everyone that the girl in front

Of them was undoubtedly the Virgin St Mary the crowd erupted in thunderous Applause with shouts and cheers of she is the Virgin she is the mother of light reaching to the sky then the crowds started to sing chant and pray throughout the night until the next morning different details emerge from

Knitting together these different accounts but the fundamental substance of the event was confirmed by multiple Witnesses upon later investigation so we have a good sense of the overall shape of what happened incidentally according to a local tradition zetune was one of the places that the Holy Family visited

During their time in Egypt and this was popularly regarded as part of why she appeared there also a very interesting thing was reported the next day you recall that one of the transit workmen faroq Muhammad atwa had pointed at The Apparition with his finger that was bandaged because it was

Going to be amputated the next day because of gang green well according to Johnston next morning when faruko atwa arrived at the hospital for his operation the surgeon was astonished to find the finger completely healed this was the first known Miracle to have occurred at zetune and I’ve seen it confirmed in

Other sources that atwa finger was healed following following these events people and especially cops started to wait at the church to see if any additional apparitions would occur a week later on Tuesday April 9th one did and that wasn’t the only one on his blog parasoy author Eric wette writes among

The surprises I had researching this case is that there is no complete list of apparitions the Coptic Church investigation identified 27 apparitions during the per perod of 2 April 1968 to 4 May 1968 or just over a month with a number of knights having more than one Apparition occurring other sources noted

That there was a decline in the number of apparitions throughout 1968 to one or two a week the frequency went down to once a month by early 1970 according to Johnston however based on zaki’s Research between 21 August 1969 and 11 June 1971 there were 17 apparitions according to Johnston the last

Apparition occurred on 29 May 1971 the apparitions thus stretched from the beginning of April 1968 to May or June 1971 a period of basically 3 years and 2 months all told wette reckons that there were around 94 apparitions with most of them occurring in 1968 in fact wette produce a chart

Graphing when The Apparition occurred and the estimated size of the crowd that was waiting to see them what he found was that although the lines don’t match exactly the most apparitions occurred when the crowds were the largest which you could interpret as God rewarding the faith of the people that were showing up

To witness them how many people were coming to wait for the apparitions it varied over time but there could be a lot of people in attendance uh there are pictures of absolute absolutely very large crowds uh the accounts which we have indicated that the area around the

Church was filled up for blocks with people and it could take hours to get close to the church I even have one report of a Muslim clergyman physically carrying a Christian doctor to help him get close since he was having trouble walking with the pressure of the crowd

Here’s father Yanna yasa who is a priest at St Mary’s Church in zun today as he introduces a clip with some motion video from the time so you can get a sense of what the crowd was like if you’re watching the video version of the podcast if only you were there to hear

Tens of thousands coming from different places groups and different religions were all raising their voices in Songs of Praise [Applause] Meanwhile Eric wette writes there were only a few Witnesses the first day as it was a completely unexpected event it eventually grew to a very large Gathering nil interviewed a witness stating that there were about 100 people people on the night of 13 April 1968 Nelson estimated that there was

Between 1, and 1500 people on 15 April 1968 after that the phenomenon was discussed for the first time in the mainstream press through the 23rd April 1968 article in the Arabic language newspaper watani the crowd grew significantly the bishop aanus estimated that there were 100,000 people on the

Night of 2930 April in it finally reached an estimated 250,000 nightly onlookers after a few weeks according to Johnston by the end of 1968 it was estimated that the crowd was down to 10,000 people nightly by June 1971 there were only a handful of people according

To Zaki it should be noted that it is notoriously difficult to estimate properly the size of a crowd especially at night and the higher figure might have been overestimated however this provides a good illustration that the phenomenon was a very public event and it was a very public event by

Some estimates over a million people witnessed the apparitions even if that number is overestimated on the high side it’s still true that a very very large number of people saw the apparitions as is evident from the photos of the crowds that attended what were the apparitions like what kind of phenomena did people

Experience at them Eric wette surveyed a bunch bunch of different sources I’ve read many of them too and on wet’s parasoy blog he provides a good summary of what they say so we’ll be using his summary of the sources as a basis for describing what people experienced basically Willette says there were six

Main qualitative aspects that can be identified about the zetune events a the so-called light Birds B the smell of incense C the clouds D phosphorescent like Luminosity e the scintilating lights or stars and F the main luminescent object that is The Apparition so we’ll go through each of

These six categories and provide more detail on what people experienced the first of the categories was the so-called birds made of light what should we know here one of the Bishops that Pope cillos uh tasked with looking into zetune was Bishop Gregorius who was Bishop of scientific research

And Coptic culture and I I love how they have a bishop of scientific research I think that’s awesome um I found a clip of him describing the so-called birds and here’s what he had to say the late Bishop gregorios during a private interview told of doves the size of

Angels that would appear and disappear over the church before they disappeared they dispersed like cotton Bishop Gregorio saw many doves at many different times over the church sometimes there were seven sometimes there were 12 and they were in a formation meanwhile summarizing multiple sources wette writes many witnesses reported that there were luminous

Objects that traveled through the sky of zetune which were at first construed as Birds but were clearly not Birds their actual nature remains unknown to this day they were described as follows another phenomenon Witness by The Spectators is the appearance of bird-like creatures before during and after the apparitions and sometimes on

Nights when there is no Apparition at all these creatures in some ways resemble doves they are larger than doves they are larger even than pigeons whence they come or whether they go no one can determine it is known says The Keeper of the Cairo Zoo that pigeons do

Not fly at night but these can hardly be any kind of natural bird first of all they fly much too rapidly they fly without ever moving their wings only one spectator interviewed thought he saw one bird flap its wings they seem to Glide before into and around the apparitions

They never come to rest on the roof or trees and on some occasions have been seen to disintegrate in the sky like wisps of cloud varying in number on different nights they have appeared singly in twos Threes And even larger groups always in some kind of formation

The creatures fly in the form of a triangle sometimes in the formation of a cross once 12 of them flew six AR breest in two rows not only are these birds spotless white they themselves emit light they are like electrically illuminated Birds which can be seen both

In the brilliant light of The Apparition and in the darkness of the sky above The Apparition they disappear as mysteriously as they appear and without sound of any kind another description is from Bishop Gregorius on the apparitions that took place between 27 April and 15 May 1968 before the apparitions took place

Some birds that look like pigeons I don’t know what they are appear in different formations sometimes two appear on the Dome just as if they had come out of it however the dome is closed the windows do not open they might be seen flying Eastward then Wheeling about and flying

To the west and while one watches them they suddenly disappear and the fact that the windows of the Dome do not open they are sealed shut is important because it means that the birds of light could not be released from within the Dome that’s also something you could tell by examining

The inside of the church because the Dome is 50 ft above the floor and there is no structure under it that you could stand on you’d have to put up scaffolding or big ladders to get up there and that would have been obvious if anybody had tried that apart from the

Fact the windows don’t open two of the phenomena that were described as accompanying The Apparition were the smell of incense and clouds around the church according to wette Palmer reported that one should perhaps include as lights the mysterious clouds that are sometimes seen to hover high above the

Church even when the rest of the sky is cloudless on one night Bishop gregoria stated they’re poured from the sealed stained glass windows of the high Dome such clouds of incense that it would take millions of sensors to produce a like quantity the incense clouds settled over the throng standing around the

Church so these clouds were seen above the roof of the church near the dome but they couldn’t have come out of the Dome because its windows are sealed shut and don’t open also as we noted you’d need scaffolding to get up there bis adds a few more details in noting that he Bishop

Gregorius describes the appearance of clouds of deep reddish incense which billowed in huge quantities it Rose to a height of 30 to 60 ft and was clearly visible above and around the church against the colorless Sky author Pearl Zaki described that sometimes clouds like a thick fog would roll in towards

The church as if they were being being channeled down the streets in all directions to completely cover the church they seem to absorb the incense and its fragrance and carry it to the crowd of people and spread it over them like a canopy the sky above would turn a

Deep reddish purple she also added that it was a pleasant fragrance so according to Pearl Zaki the clouds were sometimes seen coming from the streets and gathering around the church Michael nil interviewed father Bros the parish PRI of zetune in 1978 he noted that there was at various occasions clouds accompanied with

Thunder and a smell of inscense finally in an interview in 1980 a witness Mona mcale told bis that other times we used to see clouds of incense first you would see a type of white cloud and it would cover all the church all the area surrounding the church from above I

Never smelled anything like it in all my life it was a very very beautiful odor the Cloud remained for 10 or 15 minutes and disappeared so the clouds did not remain very long just 10 to 15 minutes and then they dissipate the witnesses also reported displays of a kind of diffuse

Light that didn’t take a particular shape but that did illuminate the church another common qualitative description was some sort of glowing aura or phosphorescent like Luminosity in the sky and around the church Palmer reported that the large Dome at top the church is sometimes illuminated by the

Heavenly lights and on one occasion as described by Bishop Samuel the light which poured out from beneath one of the smaller domes gradually covered the entire church in light Michelle nil from his 1978 interviews was told by regi Lewis that he saw the church illuminated from above as if it was from a

Fluorescent light while Victor faky describes the same phenomenon as a phosphorus light on the church’s wall in Dome as well witness Samy gbon described a very strong light as if it was a million of Watts emanating from the church and lighting up the entire neighborhood in addition to the diffuse

Glow light also sometimes appeared as small points which were described by witnesses as Sparkles and stars it also reportedly sometimes looked like a flame the main Apparition was often times preceded by sparkling lights as Palmer noted the lights have been described by Spectators as a circle of bright

Spotlights on one occasion as falling stars on another occasion and even as a shower of diamonds of light swirling in the path of our lady’s movements a brilliant Crown all of Lights has been seen over the figure of our lady giving her a majestic and glorious appearance Burl Zaki witnessed a similar phenomenon

As she wrote that on my fifth night at about 4:15 a.m. I saw four yellow flashes or Flames covering the front of the church following this about 4:30 the Virgin Mary appeared full figure she added in a different text again I saw a flash of yellowish orange light shaped

Like a big flame and covering the whole front of the church and Lasting about 5 Seconds it was repeated twice four times in all Hilda gubran told Michelle nil in 1978 that at the time of the apparitions there were stars and pigeons associated with The Apparition itions enzy morid

Told bis in a 1981 interview that he saw sparkling lights prior to The Apparition in April 1968 finally there was The Apparition itself the figure of the woman that was interpreted as the Virgin Mary we have many eyewitness accounts of what people saw and I was able to find a number of

Them on video here is what Bishop Marcos had to say just behind the church in front of the wall of the the church I think not more than 40 or 50 m approximately at midnight I have seen the vision complete very nice very clear I saw the complete face complete

Body and her hands waving to bless the people and everyone could see that she concentrated her eyes on them exactly notice that Bishop Marcos indicates that he and others could see the virgin’s eyes which is a rather small detail now here is what father Yanna yasa now one of the priests at St

Mary’s in zetune had to say a few days later while I was standing with my friend M from the faculty of engineering we saw saw the Virgin Mary surrounded by a stunning orange light we saw her many times at the northeastern Dome she appeared in many different phenomenal forms once she was standing

In her full body blessing the people she was moving from one Dome to another then going towards the cross here is what the Evangelical Protestant Theologian Otto min us who got his PhD at Harvard University had to say Well it occurred during the first days of April that thousands and 10 thousands of

People both Muslims and Christians alike assembled in front of the Church of the Holy virgin to see The Apparition of the Virgin Mary as she appeared there on the Dome the days later large numbers of people both Muslim Muslims and Christians of the various denominations assembled there and witnessed The Apparition in various

Forms I myself saw it numerous times with friends in my Parish with University students and uh yes there’s to me no doubt about it and finally here is what Dr hyrie Malak a physician reports I was standing over there near the fence and holding that iron fence as as as strong as I

Could because of the pressure of the crowd and it was about 8:30 in the evening and I saw a light coming out from the south this dome which is the Southwest Dome and the light began to increase uh gradually and then suddenly the holy mother was

Standing in front of the Dome she stood there for uh about 15 minutes and then she began to walk and she stood in front of that cross and she knelt and stood up again and then she walked to the northern side of the church just above the area where I was

Standing and she looked at at at the crowd and she blessed them and she smiled and I can say that I saw her teeth when she smiled Dr H says that he saw the Virgin standing walking kneeling and then standing up again and walking which is purposeful Behavior he also

Says that he could see Mary’s teeth which is a a very fine detail summarizing different sources Eric wette says one obvious aspect about the apparitions is that there was a fairly wide variety of descriptions and behaviors reported by the witnesses the apparitions seem to have all occurred

Near the church but not necessarily at the exact same spot as previously noted the first one was seen on the Roof near the base of the Dome it was also seen in the courtyard between trees while in other occasions it was seen in midair above the Dome it’s significant that The

Apparition was not confined to a single spot The Apparition was seen on the roof of the church on the ground in the courtyard and floating in the air above the church that means that whatever the explanation was it needs to be able to account for all three of these locations

And the public authorities took steps to try to rule out a hoax you’ll recall that on the first night they broke nearby street lights to rule out those as a source of the light well it is interesting to note that after a number of days of apparitions the public

Utilities cut the power in the neighborhood at first to deflect a hoax and then to help having a better view as well surrounding trees were cut on the third night so people could see better the most common colors were blue and white but some noted also green and pink

And others saw a reddish light these are important elements to define the nature of The Apparition as the traditional colors associated with Maran devotion are blue and white but also red although more common in older and Eastern iconography several witnesses underlined that Apparition disappeared as if

Turning off slowly the dimmer of a lamp while in other situations it Rose in the sky to disappear on some occasions it was perceived as if the wind was blowing through it and that her veil was moving in the wind while it appeared to be flat and only two dimensional on another

Occasion at times The Apparition was motionless and described as Statue likee but it appeared that it was moving more often than not but as if floating without using its feet it was making gestures with her head and her hands in particular these gestures were commonly understood by witnesses as the Virgin

Mary blessing the people many claimed to be able to distinguish a face eyes and mouth and even resembling represent ations seen in religious icons yet others noted that there was a light but they could not distinguish anything particular as one would expect it is normal to have variations in descriptions provided by eyewitnesses

But in general it tends to be relatively consistent this certainly adds some degree of confidence about the common and ongoing source of the event so that’s a general summary gathered from multiple sources of what the witnesses experienced during the apparitions the the American anthropology Professor Cynthia Nelson learned about the apparitions in mid

April about 2 weeks after the first Apparition and she attended the events several times she describes what she saw when I looked to where the crowds were pointing I too thought I saw a light through the branches of the trees and as I tried to picture a nun-like figure in

Those branches I could trace the outline of a figure but as I thought to myself that this is just an illusion of the light reflecting through the branches the image of the nun would leave my feel div Vision still there was no doubt in my mind that there was a light and that

If I looked for the image it would come into Focus I immediately explained this perceptual experience as an illusion caused by reflected light but the source of the light was a mystery for the street lights had been disconnected all around the church for several days and within another week all the trees around

The church would be cut of course with all this going on the apparitions were a major news story they were being reported extensively in the Arabic language press both newspapers and magazines particularly in Egypt they were even being reported in newspapers around the world including the New York Times and the British

Telegraph locally the crowds for the apparitions were growing and they reportedly topped out at an estimated 250,000 people present for a single Apparition some of the apparitions lasted just a few minutes but one reportedly lasted for 2 hours and 15 minutes which happened to be on the day

That they cut the power in the neighborhood father Yana reports some people said this may be the result of light Reflections which is why they cut off the electricity from the whole area at dawn on April 30th 1968 on that day the apparation lasted for 2 hours in 15

Minutes even before that Pope cillos v 6 had quickly appointed a commission to study the apparitions as soon as they began to be reported which is the same thing that would be done in the Catholic church when an apparition is reported and needs to be investigated the local

Bishop is tasked with doing so and he typically appoints a commission of experts to research it and deliver their findings to him after which he makes a decision based on their research we talked about that in episode 84 on private Revelations and you can go back

And listen to that if you’d like more information about how private Revelations work in the Catholic Church Pope cillos appointed Three Arch priests known in the Coptic Church as hegumen and yes the word hegumen is related to the Greek term for governor meaning that they had supervisory duties over other

Priests these three were the director of the papal C cabinet the secretary of the papal committee for church a for Church’s Affairs and the Secretary of his Holiness Pope cillos so they were very trusted and respected men they came back with positive findings which we’ll quote later and on Saturday May 4th 1968

The patriarch held a press conference that was attended by more than 150 reporters overseeing the press conference were four Bishops Bishop a Aus of benis suf Bishop Abraham of fume Bishop Samuel the general Bishop of Social Services and Bishop Gregorius Bishop of scientific research and Coptic culture Bishop athanasius read and

Translated the statement of the patriarchate which we present here in full including dates on the Copic calendar since the evening of Tuesday April 2nd 1968 ad which coincides with baram hot 24 16 1884 a.m. The Apparition of the Virgin Mary the mother of light continuously occurred in the Coptic

Orthodox church after her name on tanbe street at zetune District in Cairo this Apparition occurred on many different nights and was not yet finished it happened in different forms sometimes with the whole body sometimes with the upper half surrounded by a Halo of light sometimes from the windows of

The domes on the church toop and other times outside the domes she used to move and walk above the Dome and bow in front of the upper cross which would be illuminated with a bright light she used to face the viewers and bless them with her hands and with gestures of her holy

Head sometimes she appeared in the form of a body of a bright cloud or in the form of light preceded by the emergence of spiritual forms such as high-speed doves The Apparition would continue for a long period of time which sometimes reached up to two hours and 15 minutes

As on the dawn of Tuesday April 30th 1968 a which coincides with baruda 22684 a.m. her complete glowing figure lasted from 2:45 a.m. to 5 a.m. this Apparition was witnessed by many thousands of people of different religions faiths denominations and foreigners clergy scientists professionals and other groups who affirmed certainly that they

Had seen her the large numbers agreed in describing every scene in its form location and time with unanimous testimony which makes The Apparition of the lady of the Virgin the mother of light in this region a distinct Apparition in its character elevating it above the need for a statement or

Confirmation this Apparition was accompanied by two important matters the first was Reviving The Spirit of faith in God the other world and the Saints and Illuminating the light of the knowledge of God in many who were far away from him this led to the the repentance of many and the change of their

Lives the second matter was the occurrence of several wonderful miracles of healing many of which were proven scientifically and through Collective testimonies the papal office collected information on all of the above by members and Committees of priests who investigated the truth witnessed this Apparition themselves and proved it in

Their reports to his Holiness Pope cillos I 6 the papal headquarters in issuing this statement affirms with full faith great joy and humble Thanksgiving to the almighty God that the Virgin Mary the mother of light has appeared successively in clear and consistent forms in many different nights for

Varying periods and at times for more than 2 hours without interruptions beginning Tuesday evening April 2nd 1968 ad which coincides with bamat 22 1684 a.m. to date at the Coptic Orthodox Church of the Virgin Mary on to men B Street at zetune district and Al matara Road in Cairo this is the

Historically proven road that the Holy Family passed through during their trips in Egypt may God make this blessing a symbol of peace for the world and prosperity to our dear Homeland and our blessed people to whom the prophecy proceeded and said Blessed Be Egypt my people Saturday May 4th 1968 ad baraba

26684 a.m. the papal headquarters in Cairo so the apparitions that occurred between April 2nd and May 4th received official approval by the Coptic patriarchate now you may be wondering what the reaction of the Catholic church was since The Apparition was happening at a Coptic Parish it really wasn’t the place of the

Catholic Church to make an official pronouncement but the local head of the Coptic Catholic Church Cardinal Stefanos I had an informal investigation conducted and based on this investigation he concurred with the Coptic patriarchate Cardinal Stefano stated it is no doubt a real appearance confirmed by many Coptic Catholic

Members of the highest integrity and reliability they saw the Blessed virgin’s Apparition and gave me complete details and descriptions of the appearances of the Blessed apparitions on the Dome of the zun church sister Paula deuf a Roman Catholic nun well known for her accuracy and preciseness assured me of the

Certainty of the virgin’s appearance on the Dome of the zetune church sister Paula was shivering in trembling she says that she was not the only Observer but she was among thousands of observers who all saw The Apparition this unique Miracle embodies a benevolent message which will make the zetune church a center of

Pilgrimage of course this was not an official ruling since The Apparition was taking place in a Coptic Parish but it did represent Cardinal Stefanos in informed personal opinion in his book zetune 1968 to 1971 Francis Johnston writes as would be expected there was no official pronouncement on the Visions

From Rome though Pope Paul v 6 sent two investigators to Zune who saw The Apparition with their own eyes reported in Al Aram 6 May 1968 there was no obligation on the part of the Holy seed to pass judgment on an event which occurred in a Coptic Orthodox environment similar the cops

Felt it unnecessary to pronounce on the visions of the Blessed Virgin at Fatima in 1917 in a letter to the author father Jerome Palmer explained that Rome might only undertake its own investigation of the Visions after corporate Unity with the Coptic Orthodox church has been attained so the apparitions at least of

The first month had now been approved by the Coptic patriarchate and the Catholic patriarchate concurred in an unofficial decision the apparitions would continue with significant frequency throughout the rest of 1968 and with lesser frequency in 1969 and 1971 needless to say because of all the attention they attracted many people

Moved to zetune and they ended up having so many Christians living there and wanting to come to mass there that they had to build a new cathedral to accommodate them and the new cathedral is huge it’s massive next to the church president Gamal Nasser of Egypt reportedly gave permission for the

Public transportation bus garage to be torn down to make room for it and the Christians of Egypt continue to honor our lady of zetune to this day so we will next turn to theories in our faith and reason perspective but first I want to take a moment to thank

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Catholic.com and by the Grady group a Catholic company bringing Financial Clarity to their clients across the United States using Safe Money options to produce reasonable rates of return for their clients learn more at grgroup in.com so Jimmy what theories are there about our lady of zetune to investigate the apparitions we

Need to consider three types of theories that could be responsible for them first there are naturalistic theories things that would account for them that would be purely conventional second there they could have a paranormal explanation something that isn’t conventional but also wouldn’t be a genuine manifestation of the Virgin

Mary and then finally third they could have a supernatural explanation before we start analyzing the different theories from the reason perspective let’s talk about the evidence we have to work with there are a lot of photos from zetune what should we make of them unfortunately I don’t think we can put a

Great deal of weight on the photographs uh in some cases we don’t know who took them which means that they could be fake uh we know that vendors were selling photographs s to The Spectators and vendors can’t be assumed to be above faking photographs to make a buck in

Other cases we do know who took the photos but unfortunately they’ve been retouched uh particularly to make the edges of the images stand out more the sky has frequently been blacked out to make it darker so that you can see the Luminous shapes better that’s why the

Shapes have such sharp edges in the photos in some cases is the retouching has extended to sketching over the figure of the Virgin Mary To Make Her Image clearer for example we know of one image that was retouched in this way by Dr leib shinuda Who did the additional

Sketching from his memory of seeing The Apparition fortunately in this case we also have the original unretouched image which is significantly blurrier in any event as a result of these factors I don’t think we can put much evidential waight on the details of these photographs though the ones that have

Known sources even if they’ve been retouched uh together with the eyewitness accounts really do reveal that there were genuine light phenomena taking place at the church what about other evidence that we have of course we have numerous eyewitness statements some of which we’ve heard and some of which

We’ll quote as we go forward I particularly like quoting official documents whenever possible and one of these was prepared by Pope carillo’s Commission of hegumen uh it was a summary letter that dealt with both the experiences of the public transportation workers who were Muslim and with their own experiences the hegumen when they

Visited the site this letter hasn’t generally been public from my reading of the sources but it is found in the Coptic patriarch’s book for the 50th anniversary of the apparitions and it’s an official document summarizing some of the evidence they gathered so we will read it here in full to his Holiness

Pope cillos I 6 pope of Alexandria and patriarch of the Sea of St Mark with subordination to your Apostolic seat we kiss your pure hands and ask for your righteous prayers your faithful Sons hegan father gargis mat hegan father Yana Abdul masi and hegumen father Benjamin are honored to present this report on

The Apparition of the Virgin St Mary in her church located at zetune area we were glad that your Holiness has chosen us to visit the Church of the Virgin Mary at zetune we went on Tuesday April 23rd 1968 when we first arrived we wanted to interview those who saw The

Apparition of the Virgin Mary we entered the garage opposite the church but it was 9:00 p.m. so we called the workers of the garage which belonged to the public Transportation Authority they assured us that they saw the Virgin themselves with their own eyes on the first night she was seen 4 weeks ago

Each one of them said that he was not the only one who saw her but that she was also seen by other co-workers at the same time as well as by a large number of people by coincidence they were passing by at that moment this is the

Summary of the accounts of the workers of the garage of the institution of public transportation one Mr mmon Afifi the instructor for the drivers of public transportation his national ID number is 9937 ledi province said I was still awake in the garage facing the church at 8:30 a.m. on

Tuesday April 2nd 1968 when I heard the parking guard standing at the door shouting loudly light on top of the Dome so I went out quickly and saw with my own eyes a lady moving over the Dome and radiating an unusual light which lit the darkness of the area around the Dome so

I looked harder and my eyes were fixed on her and I saw that she was the Virgin and I saw her walk over the smooth Dome and her body was a flame of light she and she walked calmly I could not hold myself from shouting God has purified

And chosen you from among all the women of the world two as for the guard named Mr Abdel aiz working in the garage of the Public Transportation Authority he also said that as soon as he saw the Virgin he saw her as a body of light over the

Dome he started to shout light over the Dome and I called to Hussein Awad who hurried along with the other workers and saw the Virgin moving over the Dome I said they were forbidden this year from visiting the virgin in Jerusalem so she came to visit them herself Mr Hussein

Awad a blacksmith in the garage of the Public Transportation Authority national ID number 33289 El Giza Providence commented I saw the Virgin over the Dome of the church as a body of radiant light lighting the place like the sun the Virgin was holding what looked like a

Branch of an olive tree and began to move the light was shining from her body to all surrounding areas the light then began to form a circle with the virgin in its Center this scene I have never seen before Mr yakut Ali the worker at the garage of the Public Transportation

Authority described how the Virgin walked over the Dome he said it was a flowing brightly illuminated body in space as soon as her feet touched the surface of the Dome they moved quietly surrounded by a Halo of reverence and Holiness those who saw her were standing

In awe and were taken by the Magnificent view until this scene disappeared inside the Dome your Holiness the pope these are the words of the employees of the general transportation company we wanted to make sure ourselves so we went on many occasions one night we witnessed the lady the Virgin appearing first with

A Celestial spherical light with the Virgin inside it she then appeared with her whole body moved over the Dome prostrated herself towards the cross and blessed the joyful crowds who were shouting with their supplications on another night we saw bright silver shining doves flying directly from the

Dome to the sky we glorified God who allowed us the Earthly to see the glory of the Heavenly all this is due to your Holiness as pure prayers and Powerful supplications for your people we ask God to perpetuate your life as an asset and pride to the church and to unite the

Orthodox Faith at your hands please accept our submission to your Apostolic seat and may He perpetuate for us and the people of the church your arch priesthood April 30th 1968 ad baruda 22684 a.m. so the hegmans confirmed the testimony of the public transportation workers even though they had initially

Thought that the woman they saw might be a normal person about to commit suicide they ended up concluding that it was the Virgin Mary the heimans also visited the site themselves and they reported seeing the apparitions with their own ey what can we say about our lady of zetune

From the reason perspective what kind of naturalistic explanations for the apparitions would there be the two principal theories that we need to examine are hoax and misidentification that is whether someone could have pulled this off as an elaborate hoax and whether it could have been an innocent misidentification of a purely natural

Phenomenon let’s talk about the hoax theory if you were going to argue that it was was a hoax what would you point to in the 19th century there were a large number of what are known today as physical mediums and a large number of them are known to have been hoaxers

Physical mediums claim to manifest the presence of ghost through physical phenomena such as moving objects playing musical instruments and materializing glowing objects we talked about physical medium some in episode 200 on the ghost bride many of these mediums were exposed by the British and American societies for psychical research and they found that

They were using magician tricks they performed in darkness to make it harder to see what they were doing in fact that’s where the whole idea of doing seanes and ghost hunts in the dark came from real parapsychologists don’t want to work in the dark because it cuts down

On your ability to see things and physical mediums would would use chemicals often containing element 15 or phosphorus to make objects that they pretended to materialize glow because white phosphorus glows in contact with the oxygen and the atmosphere so one Theory to consider is whether someone could have pulled off an elaborate hoax

Using phosphorus or another chemical to make a woman appear to glow and doves appear to glow and other light phenomen the stars or Sparkles that people reported seeing similarly could have been caused by pyrotechnic means or fireworks and the clouds and incense that people reported could have also

Been caused by conventional means so it would seem to be possible to generate a lot of the things that people reported seeing through natural chemical means then let’s look at the other side of the argument are there factors that weigh against it being a ho we won’t go through every conceivable objection that

I can think of but here are a number of them first in order to pull off a hoax like this the perpetrators would have to be people inside the parish a lot of the phenomena originated from the roof of the parish so they would need roof access but it doesn’t appear that the

Priest was in on it since he was at home and had to be summoned when the first Apparition took place it could have been other people in the parish but the windows of the Dome are sealed shut and do not open so you couldn’t use them to

Climb out of or release Birds through them also the Dome is dozens of feet up in the air and there’s no real way to climb up to it without scaffolding I’m sure there are ways to get onto the roof but that wouldn’t explain everything the people reported seeing in the first

Place the lights they reported seeing were way brighter than what you’d get from chemical luminescence that tends to produce soft glows but people sometimes reported seeing bright lights and to produce those you’d likely need electrical equipment that you wouldn’t be able to hide people would see spotlights coming from the church or

Aimed at the church uh spotlights would cut through the haze in the air and betray their presence also the figure of the woman was reported to descend from the roof to the Garden below the church and she was reported to float down not to plummet like a woman leaping off the

Roof further she sometimes was reported to float up into the air and there’s no way for a human to do that without a jetpack which they didn’t have in 1968 or without a winch which would have been seen then there are the doves which people said were not not only larger

Than normal doves but which numerous Witnesses said flew without flapping their wings so you couldn’t just coat dusts in phosphorus and release them people also said that they sometimes saw the doves and the woman simply Fade Out which is not what would happen if they were covered in a glowing chemical that

Would fade out slowly over a long period of time not suddenly and people reported that the woman was bright enough that you couldn’t always make out her shape you’ll recall uh Cynthia Nelson’s testimony that she could see the outline of the woman if she thought about it but

If she told herself it was an illusion she lost the outline of the woman that’s not something that you would expect to happen if a woman were simply covered in a light producing chemical or if you had a super bright light shining on her further these apparitions went on for

More than 3 years there were more than 90 of them and nobody ever caught the hoaxers that’s very improbable if I were going to hoax an apparition I’d do it once or maybe a few times but doing it more than 90 times often with thousands of pairs of eyeballs

Watching I wouldn’t do that the risk of getting caught would be too high yet nobody ever caught the hoaxers nobody ever found a smoke machine nobody ever found spotlights nobody ever found a chemically laced Dove and some of them would have landed nearby and nobody ever found a supply of light

Producing chemicals given the complexity and magnitude of everything that happened there’s significant evidence against the hoax hypothesis there’s also another reason which also strikes against the misidentification hypothesis but I’ll hold that one back for now then let let’s talk about the misidentification hypothesis what could be said in favor

Of this one a known phenomenon in human psychology is paradia which is the tendency to impose a meaningful pattern on a nebulous stimulus and this is known to happen in connection with religious imagery that’s why back in 1994 a woman named Diane dcer was cooking a grilled

Cheese sandwich and when she looked at it she thought that the pattern on the toast looked like the face of the Virgin Mary it became an international sensation in the news and the sandwich eventually sold for $28,000 which would be worth $56,000 today after all the inflation

The government has caused in the case of zetune we have some witnesses saying they could see the Virgin Mary’s features very clearly including her eyes nose and teeth but we also have other Witnesses like since cythia Nelson who said she could see the Virgin Mary’s outline if she looked at the image the

Right way but if she looked at it another way the human outline would disappear that’s also reported in the cases of other apparitions both in parapsychology and in the religious World in parapsychological apparitions some people report seeing a ghost clear as day and they can even mistake it for

A living human being while other Witnesses who are present see something but they don’t see it clearly similarly in the Bible there are apparitions where some people see or hear something clearly like when God speaks to Jesus in John 12 and some of those who are present Hear What God Says

Clearly but others think they’ve just heard thunder or when Jesus converts St Paul in Acts N St Paul hears what Jesus says clearly but the men who were with him couldn’t make out what the voice was saying so it’s not uncommon in apparitions for some people to perceive

Them clearly While others who are present don’t perceive them clearly but as part of the investigative stage we still need to ask whether paradia could be involved in this case could there have been light sources that people mentally imposed the image of the Virgin Mary on like in the cheese sandwich

Example and thus it was a purely natural phenomenon that would still require that there be a light source for people to see as the Virgin Mary or as doves or whatever are there any natural light sources that it could have been people on the ground actually did us a big

Favor by eliminating the common ones you’ll recall that on the first night of the apparitions the police chief thought that the light might have been coming from nearby street lights so he broke them and that eliminated the nearby street lights as a cause then a few days

Later they shut down the power in the area to eliminate any other electrical light sources from the neighborhood that might really annoy me if I lived in the neighborhood but speaking as a Paranormal Investigator I’m like good job excellent process of elimination they also cut the trees to

Give people an unobstructed view of the light phenomenon uh which would help eliminate distant Reflections by letting you see what was going on clearly of course someone could still have brought a generator or battery powered Spotlight to the scene but spotlights would have been seen by the crowd the haze in the

Air and Cairo can be be a pretty hazy city um especially back in the 1960s before modern emission reduction technology in cars um the haze in the air would have made the beams visible at least on some of the nights during the more than 90 appearances and especially when those

Clouds that smelled like incense were present so the conventional natural light sources that you’d think of seem to be eliminated are there any unconventional but natural light sources that have been proposed there is one earthquake lights earthquake lights are reported to be lights that appear in the air in

Association with earthquakes we know that certain Rocks Under stress can generate electrical charges the theory is that when these rocks are under tectonic stress you know seismic stress um they can cause lights to appear above the surface and in 1989 John dur and Michael Persinger published an article

In which they proposed that the lights seen at zetune were caused in part by tectonic strain they claimed in their article to find associations between when the apparitions occurred and seismic activity about 400 kilom or 250 mil to the south of Z to the southeast of zun the association wasn’t perfect

But they proposed that this activity was at least partly responsible for the lights along with other unknown factors what do you make of that theory earthquake lights are controversial and not everybody is convinced that they’re real or that they would happen in this kind of C circumstance it’s also been

Pointed out that neither Durr nor Persinger were geologists instead they were experts in Psychology and they published their paper in a psychology Journal here’s part of what skeptic Brian Dunning of the skeptoid podcast had to say about this Theory there’s one sciencey sounding explanation for the zetune lights that is mentioned in

Virtually every skeptical article on the subject earthquake lights to grasp the plausibility of or implausibility of earthquake lights as an explanation for Our Lady of zetune you need only listen to my full skeptoid episode on earthquake Lights Number 534 in it you’ll find that despite widespread popular belief in earthquake

Lights there is neither evidence for their existence nor any plausible Theory suggesting anything like them might exist without exception every time the source of a so-called earthquake light caught on video has been conclusively identified it’s been either lightning from a distant storm unrelated to the earthquake the explosion of an

Electrical Transformer directly related to the earthquake or a cloud illuminated by the Sun that should never have been called an earthquake light in the first place there has never been any need to go in search of an exotic explanation for A mysterious phenomenon that we have no reason to believe exists but using

Them to explain Our Lady of zetune stretches this to an even further level of absurdity D and Persinger the original authors correlated her appearance to seismic activity 400 kilometers to the southeast they were suggesting that these earthquakes caused lights that manifested neither as great flashes in the sky nor as Sparks along

The ground but as a fully formed and recognizable human figure standing still or walking slowly on the rooftop of one particular Church 400 kilm to the Northwest for quiet hours at a time over a period of 3 years no other such apparitions were reported in this

Alleged 400 kilm radius at all over that same period of time why not because it’s a terrible terrible explanation and it is wrong unfortunately Dunning does not have an explanation for what the lights were he acknowledges that they existed that they there really were strange light phenomena at zetune but as a

Hardcore skeptic he attributes the apparitions to Wishful misperception of the lights as the Virgin Mary he seems unable or unwilling to accept the possibility that the lights could have a non-natural origin but he has no explanation for what the lights were he says we need no earthquake lights no

Miracles and no papal declarations to explain Our Lady of zetune we need only a great Collective desire and belief by a passionate populace triggered by some unknown inconsequential various light sources that could have been anything Dunning tries to sound persuasive but could have been anything is not a satisfactory explanation to my

Mind Dunning seems Boxed In by a naturalistic mindset that’s unable to acknowledge anything non-natural and that’s not open-mindedness but I do agree with him that the earthquake lights Theory isn’t a good explanation um I’m more open to the question of whether earthquake lights might exist I I haven’t researched that

Question in depth yet but we may cover it on a future episode of the program however I find it very hard to suppose that earthquakes or seismic activity 250 miles away would cause hum shaped light sources to be seen at one specific church over a period of 3 years without

Other light phenomena being reported elsewhere that seems very improbable so despite our differences I agree with Dunning that the earthquake lights explanation for zetune is super speculative and very unlikely so not buying it you said that there was one argument that you were going to hold

Back for the moment that dealt with both the hoax Theory and the misperception theories what was that Miracles if the apparitions were hoax or if they were misperceptions of natural phenomena they would not cause miraculous healings to happen you recall that Faruk Muhammad atwa the transportation worker who

Pointed at the Virgin Mary on the first night had a gangrenous finger that he was scheduled to have amputated the next day but when he went to the hospital the finger was found healthy and he got to keep it well that was far from the only medically unexplainable healing

Connected with the apparitions for example to name Just One Source the 50th Anniversary Book produced by the Coptic patriarch it contains multiple Miracle reports this is one of them Mr Riyad Nagib iser Bachelor of Commerce University of Alexandria said I developed a retinal detachment due to

Rupture of the retinal vein in my right eye the internal hemorrhage continued for 21 days followed by a clot in front of the retina a group of opthalmologists announced that it had no treatment no cure in Egypt or abroad this shocked me but I believed in God’s mercy especially

When I heard what was published in the newspaper watani about the apparitions of the Blessed holy virgin St Mary to Millions at zetune church named after her on the morning morning of Sunday April 21 day of the Resurrection Feast I traveled to Cairo accompanied by my mother and my friend fi el el

Shaii together we went to the church prayed and asked others to pray on my behalf I spent the night there yet she didn’t appear and on the evening of the next day Easter Monday suddenly the Virgin appeared and the crowd started cheering joyfully without knowing I

Closed my left eye with my hand and lifted up My Eyes to the Sky ey and screamed praying if medicine has failed the Lord will not fail then the greatest surprise of my life occurred I saw the Virgin St Mary appearing as we know her glowing with a light brighter than I had

Ever seen before with white doves circling around her I saw all of this with my blind right eye then she disappeared then I looked at my mother and my friend fiki and screamed I see with my right eye people started gathering around me and They Carried me on their shoulders as I continued

Screaming I am healed a miracle has happened to me here Bishop Marcos reports a healing that he witnessed we had a man who was very crippled his hands were paralyzed and his back was bent and he could barely speak at approximately 7:00 in the evening I saw him begin to move his

Hands and then his fingers and then the rest of his body before long he threw his canes from his hands and began to run around the church blessing God because now he was healed and here Bishop Gregorius reports one that occurred to a Muslim woman who later came to

Him with a stick in her hand she said I am bringing this stick with me not because I need it anymore but to convince you that I was paralyzed and I was depending on this stick and now I don’t need it and father Yanna similarly reports 3 months after the operation

Other servants and myself witnessed a miracle while we were standing at the North yard of the church we saw a blind and paralyzed lady entering the church on a Wheelchair she came to the church following the Virgin Mary’s promise who visited her at night saying visit my church at zetune and you will be cured she came to the church following the Virgin Mary’s promise who visited her at night saying visit my church at zetune

And you will be cured a strong light radiated from the northeastern Dome when the lady stepped into the church we then saw her standing and moving towards the church leaving the wheelchair behind in a stream of joy and praise these are just a few Miracle reports among many others and it wasn’t

Just sick people who reported the healings doctors who had examined the sick also confirmed the Miracles some of the doctors were even Skeptics for example Cynthia Nelson reported there are those For Whom The Apparition does not make sense and for whom an admission of its validity would threaten their

Taken for granted world one prominent chairo surgeon expressed this existential dilemma in the following narrative a patient of mine upon whom I had operated 2 years ago for cancer returned to my office 3 weeks ago for a checkup upon examination I discovered that the man had another

Tumor I actually felt the tumor during the internal examination and removed a piece of tissue for biopsy when the test showed it was malignant I recommended it an immediate operation but the man refused saying he did not have enough money and left the office 2 weeks later he returned and asked for another

Examination to my astonishment I could not find the tumor but only some White Scar Tissue the man told me he had gone to zetune and prayed to the Virgin for help I did not believe in such Miracles but I cannot explain The Disappearance of the tumor and it is driving me

Mad so between the problems with the hoax Theory the problem with the misperception theory and and what the light source would have been and the documented Miracle accounts I think the evidence points away from there being a natural explanation for the apparitions so just because there isn’t a natural explanation for an event

Doesn’t mean that there must be a religious explanation there were reports of paranormal phenomena of various kinds have any paranormal explanations of the apparitions been proposed the only one I’m familiar with is one favored by Eric wette on his parasoy blog he agrees that the naturalistic explanations uh for the

Apparitions fail but he also refuses to adopt the religious explanation on what seems to be essentially ideological grounds this is something I’ve seen with various researchers in parapsychology they point out that ideology keeps naturalists from embracing anything other than a naturalistic explanation alleged ly on the grounds of needing to

Do science but then they themselves refuse to consider a religious explanation also allegedly because they need to do science this doesn’t necessarily mean that they aren’t themselves religious but it does mean that they won’t consider religious explanations when they’re trying to act in a scientific mode in wet’s case he

Says to stick to a purely geological explanation one would need to invoke a long list of geological coincidences never seen before and dismiss condescendingly all the witnesses as unreliable this is an unreasonable perspective that is based on a belief that a purely naturalistic explanation somehow exists but cannot be proven the

Religious explanation is no different from the geological one as it is based on a theological Corpus from which a belief in Maran appar itions can be supported but not proven it is a matter of belief he then proposes his own Theory and concludes this explanation is neither religious nor naturalistic and yet does

Not require a belief system which is just mistaken everybody has a belief system and every theory is underg guarded by a system of beliefs including the Paranormal beliefs that under gird wet’s own proposal so what does he think happened to explain zetune wette uses a model that was originally developed to

Explain UFOs as paranormal phenomena but he thinks it also applies here he believes that the geophysical factors cited by dur and Persinger played some role in helping zetune to happen but as a necessary condition rather than a sufficient condition he doesn’t think that earthquake lights would have

Appeared the way they did at the church instead he thinks that that the geophysical conditions helped set the stage and then the phenomena themselves were paranormally produced by a large sociological effect in short he thinks that the light phenomena were produced by what’s known as recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis or

Rspk if that sounds familiar it’s because we’ve talked about it before such as in episode 159 on poltergeists the idea is that without meaning to people who are under stress sometimes subconsciously manifest psychokinesis or PK and cause objects to move this is thought to be responsible for much of the Poltergeist phenomena

That gets reported in this case we let proposes that the PK manifested in the form of light phenomena and it was brought about because of the stress the Egyptian people in the area were under because of all the stress he thinks that a bunch of people began spontaneously

Manifesting PK that took the form of light phenomena providing them with comforting apparitions of the Virgin Mary what does he think was the cause of the stress we’ve already made reference to what happened in The Six Day War does he think that was the source of the stress somewhat surprisingly he points

To something else uh The Six Day War had taken place a year earlier in 1967 and wette suggests that the stress was from something different he notes that later in April of 1968 the Egyptian government freed over 1,000 radical islamists from prison these were members of the Muslim Brotherhood and they

Included Iman Al zawahiri who later became a key leader in alqaeda Willette proposes that there were people who either prec cognitively sensed the coming release of the prisoners or who knew about it in advance and that this caused them so much stress that it started the app apparitions as a kind of collective

Large scale manifestation of PK what do you think of willette’s theory well there are reports of collective parapsychological experiences where one person starts manifesting a psychic ability and then other people start manifesting it too either through telepathic influence or through normal influence you know for example displaying PK at a spoon bending party

One person spoon bends and then all kinds of other people start having spoons Bend so it’s not unheard of that there would be a collective psychic experience you could then propose that the healings that took place were examples of parapsychological healing rather than Supernatural healing but psychokinesis does not normally manifest

In the form of light phenomena it characteristically manifests as moving objects not bending or generating light in Alan G and AD Cornell’s book poltergeists they did a statistical study of the phenomena that are reported in Poltergeist cases and out of 500 cases that they logged luminous effects

Were reported in only 10% of them and those were coupled with other effects like spontaneously moving objects so it would be very unusual to have a poltergeist case manifesting so heavily in the form of light effects without the other effects normally present in Poltergeist cases so willette’s Theory

Sounds improbable to me also the stuff about the Muslim Brotherhood prisoners being released is highly speculative and wette himself acknowledges that it’s impossible to tell whether this was what triggered the proposed Poltergeist agents in his theory my more fundamental problem with the theory is that it’s all just speculation Willette doesn’t

Present substantial evidence in its favor as I mentioned his primary reason for adopting it is ideological rather than evidential he’s just not prepared to consider a religious explanation or even a spirit related explanation even if he doesn’t think it’s the Virgin Mary you know he could say well it’s some

Spirit showed up and appeared to these people as an apparition but he won’t go there and so his Collective psychokinesis theory is the best one he can come up with but I am of the view that phenomena should be interpreted at face value until such time as we get

Evidence that they should be interpreted in another way well these phenomena presented themselves as The Apparition of a spirit and specifically of the Virgin Mary so that’s how they should be interpreted until we get good evidence to the contrary and we don’t have such evidence the evidence points to there being

Apparitions of a spirit and specifically of the Virgin Mary then let’s talk about about our lady of zetune from the faith perspective let’s start with the fact that many of the Witnesses were Muslim and believed it was the Virgin Mary what do you make of that I’m not surprised uh

Although they don’t regard Jesus as God Muslims do regard him as a prophet of God and is the Messiah and they regard his mother Mary as a very special woman in God’s plan they believe in the Virgin birth and in Mary’s Perpetual virginity they believe Mary was specially chosen

By God they believe that she is the greatest woman who ever lived uh she’s the only woman mentioned in the Quran in fact she’s mentioned 70 times in the Quran which is more than she’s mentioned in the bible actually and there’s a whole Surah or chapter in the Quran

That’s named after her furthermore many Muslims have a Devotion to Mary and visit sites connected with her including Christian shrines to Mary Muslim women in particular often seek Mary’s assistance when they’re seeking to become pregnant so it doesn’t surprise me that M Muslims were favorably disposed to the apparitions of Our Lady of

Zetune what about the fact that Mary was appearing at a Coptic Church some people might wonder if God would really give private revelations in a non-catholic context all people are God’s children and he loves all of us because of his love God can bless and speak to anyone

As Jesus says God makes his son rise on the evil and the good and he certainly gives light to Christians when they seek it we talked about that back in episode 44 on John Hendricks the Tennessee Prophet even though he was Protestant we saw there were good reasons to think

That God was genuinely giving John Hendrick private Revelation I therefore have no problem with the idea that God would give private Revelations to other Christians including especially allowing the Virgin Mary to appear to Christians like those in Egypt who love her so much and the Christians in Egypt saw her

Appearance as a sign of peace and unity not only did the Coptic authorities officially approve the apparitions and the Catholic patriarch also gave his personal approval even Dr Ibrahim SED the head of the Protestant Church in Egypt supported the apparitions so this was a pan Christian event a sign of peace and

Unity rather than an occasion for squabbling about whose understanding of the Christian faith is most correct it’s pan Christian events like this that can help build Bridges within the Christian Community and spur us towards Unity you classified the apparitions as private Revelations but Mary unlike at Fatima in many other cases was not

Reported giving anyone any messages no secrets or prophecies what do you make of that I’m also not surprised by that actually the fact no messages are reported after so many appearances is another sign of confidence about what happened if anyone tried to make anything up it didn’t get any attaction

Which shows that people were exercising discernment while many Maran apparitions do contain verbal messages not all of them do for example during the apparitions of Puma or Pont M uh France in 1871 also known as Our Lady of Hope the Virgin Mary didn’t say anything out loud although there was a written

Message neither did she say anything in the apparitions at knch Ireland in 1879 those apparitions were completely silent so it’s consistent with previous approved Marian apparitions that she may not say anything furthermore you don’t have to speak in order to send a message just showing up by itself sends a

Message and in this case the Virgin was reported to also nod and bless uh the people with her hands which communicates the message that God loves them and is blessing them what about about the implications that some Drew in relation to the defeat during The Six Day War

Some saw our lady of zunis communicating the message that God was on Egypt’s side militarily and they might defeat Israel in the future well I understand why some egyptions thought that it’s natural to read signs of divine favor in terms of your own concerns and in 1968 people

Were concerned about what had happened during The Six Day War however despite the difficulties God children have with each other he loves all of us and the dove is a prominent symbol of peace so I would be inclined to interpret the dove-like apparitions that appeared alongside our lady of zetune as symbols

Of peace at least in part unfortunately there was another war with Israel in 1973 but after that the two Nations began working towards peace in 1978 the Camp David Accords were signed Israel returned the entire Sinai Peninsula to Egypt and in 1979 the Egyptian Israeli peace treaty was signed Egypt recognized

Israel as a legitimate state and full diplomatic relations including an exchange of ambassadors were established in 1980 despite continuing tensions the two countries are strategic partners and the peace between them has held for 40 years is there anything else to say before we go just a few things in closing uh first

Here’s a closing Reflection by father Yanna of St Mary’s Church she appeared after the defeat of the 1967 war because people were depressed during that time the Virgin Mary appeared as if she were saying I am always with you I will never abandon you I am happy because I am with you I’m

Going to shower you with blessings in Grace as a result a lot of people repent repented and their faith became more steadfast we should set our eyes upon God because we believe in heaven and eternal life to Heaven our eyes are lifted with longing our hearts are filled with your

Love oh virgin we are overwhelmed for your intercession we are seeking we will always remember April 2nd 1968 Glory Be to God forever and ever amen amen and here’s what Bishop Marcos has to say the vision of St Mary is intended for all Egyptians not just the Christians she gives them peace she

Gives them hope and the belief that tomorrow will be better than today I want to say a special thanks to Ibrahim Yousef of Cairo uh both for his financial generosity to the program and for his help in researching this episode he visited the church in zun and he

Provided me with research materials that are not available here in the United States uh just like Sherlock Holmes had his Baker Street Irregulars who helped him with his research people who help Mysterious World research various topics are known as The Mysterious Irregulars so thank you very much Ibrahim and welcome to the mysterious

Irregulars so Jimmy what’s your bottom line on our lady of zun I think our lady of Zune was a genuine Apparition uh the idea that it was a hoax is extremely improbable given the circumstances and the more than 90 appearances uh the common light sources that you would expect were eliminated

And could not have been responsible the earthquake light theory is bad and in addition to numerous eyewitness testimonies we have medically documented Miracles the mass psychokinesis theory that Eric wette proposed is purely speculative and not supported by evidence and so the apparitions should be taken as what they appear to be

Genuine apparitions of the Virgin Mary I thus concur with the official Coptic approval of them and The Unofficial approvals by the Catholic and Protestant leaders in Egypt so let’s give thanks to God for the appearances of Our Lady of zetune and for his and her love for us

In general and so Jimmy what further resources can we offer to the listeners and viewers we’re going to have links to our Lady of zetune uh the zetune memorial Foundation the Coptic Orthodox Church uh Oriental Orthodox Churches the common Declaration of Pope Paul v 6 and Pope shinuda III information about the

Coptic calendar a short Zune documentary Cynthia Nelson’s article on the virgin of zetune which unfortunately is behind a paywall also information about earthquake lights dur and persinger’s article on the geophysical interpretation of Zune which is also behind a pay wall uh the skeptoid podcast and two posts from parasoy uh

Eric wet’s blog as well as information on maryan Islam excellent so that’s it from us this time what are your theories about our lady of zetune you can let us know by visiting sqpn domcom or the Jimmy Akens Mysterious World Facebook page sending us an email to feedback at

Mysterious. FM sending a tweet to _ World visiting the StarQuest Discord community at sqpn docomo or calling Our Mysterious feedback line at 61 97384 515 that’s 619 73845 one5 and I want to say a special word of thanks to Oasis studi 7 for their video and animation work on this

Episode you can see what they do by going to my YouTube channel which is YouTube youtube.com/ jimy Aken uh while you’re there please uh like comment and subscribe when you engage like that it tells YouTube that you were engaged by the episode and so other people might be

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Usually I have at least two or three a week and so at at this point so um do subscribe and hit the Bell notification so that you actually get notified for what you’ve sub subscribed to I am trying to grow my channel and I’d really appreciate it also thank you to Melanie

Bet nelli for her voice work in today’s episode so Jimmy what’s our next episode going to be about next time we’re going crypted hunting again this time time the hidden animal or crypted that we’re hunting is a strange creature described in medieval Tales including those about King Arthur it’s known as the questing

Beast folks be sure to share the podcast with your friends and write a review in apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast from to help us grow our community and reach more listeners you can find links to Jimmy’s resources from our discussion on our show notes at

Mysterious. fm/ 28 3 and remember to help us continue to produce the podcast please visit sqpn Docomo world is also brought to you in part by deliver contacts.com offering contact lenses at low prices with free delivery visit deliver contacts.com and buy Great Lakes Customs law helping importers and individuals with seizures penalties and compliance with us Customs matters throughout the United States visit greatlakes customs

Law.com and by Rosary Army featuring award-winning Catholic podcasts Rosary resources videos and the school of Mary online community prayer and learning platform learn how to make them pray them and give them away while growing in your faith at rosary army.com and school ofm mar.com until next time Jimmy aen thank you for

Exploring with us Our Mysterious World thanks Dom and once again I’m Dom bettinelli thank you for listening to Jimmy yens Mysterious World on StarQuest For

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