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You are at:Home » Echoes of Silence: A Journey Beyond Belief
Fraternities and Sororities

Echoes of Silence: A Journey Beyond Belief

adminBy adminNovember 10, 2023Updated:November 10, 2023No Comments52 Mins Read
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Namaste and in lak’ ech and welcome to this  episode of One World and new world I’m your host   Zen Benefiel and this week’s guest is Kerry-Ann  Powell she is a graduate of North Western   University School of Law and she is the founder  of traflagar strategies she talks about business  

Strategy sales and marketing team optimization  systems and processes and Leadership ship   development uh she is the director of development  programs for the memorial Foundation Incorporated   uh she is also the director of fundraising and  development Washington DC for the Martin Luther  

King Jr National Memorial project she’s a staff  attorney and food lobbyist for the United States   public interest research group and I’d like to  welcome her Kenne nice to have you here thank   you Zen it’s good to be here so I hope I did you  justice well you know tongue and [Laughter] cheek  

So in our expiration of conversations that that  we’ve been having over the last couple years   it’s been about inner development and and we each  have inner development happen in our own ways and   sometimes it happens early sometimes it happens  teenage sometimes midlife how how did yours begin  

And and what were the things that you saw around  you during this process how did you first noticed   that you had something going on inside of you  well I I feel like I always had a sense of um  

My own spirituality well I grew up in a home  that was Christian um my father was a pastor   and um that certainly helps yeah and so I was  always sort of introduced the to the idea that  

Um I am connected um to what I call God and um  but obviously as you you know you grow and and   you evolve um some of it is sort of uh what you  what you’re taught and some of it is what you’re  

Experiencing and you learn and I think um for me  I think probably when I was maybe 12 years old was   when I really began sensing um a real connection  that was um separate from what it was I was taught  

Okay so let me ask to unpack that a little bit so  what I think I heard you say was there was a there   was a belief system and there was an experience  system that was happening and so you were kind of  

Looking at the disparity or noticing that there  was the difference between the two well I think   it’s more about I always knew that um that that  God was with me and I was with God right so I  

Always I’m very young so I can’t think of a time  when I didn’t but I think um probably when I was   H at the age of 12 was when I really began to  uh to dig deeper into what that meant for me um  

Um I guess in a more tangible way experiential  rather than just a having the belief it’s like   Faith turned into right your direct yeah yeah you  could you could say that okay and I think over you  

Know I I was lucky because um I was allowed uh you  know I had lots of friends who we all were also on   the Journey of of spiritual growth and so we had  lots of opportunities to talk about this and to  

Connect with each other and hear other people’s  Journey and so forth but one of the things that I   remember uh distinctly in my high school years was  this Perpetual question of you know um so there’s  

One thing to sort of have a real good connection  with God on an individual level then you’re sort   of looking at the world and you’re saying is this  all there is yeah who else is out there right and  

And so you begin I think that was probably where  in my high school years when I was like okay there   has to be more to this life than what meets the  eye um and I remember that there was this um um  

Artist I don’t remember his name this Christian  artist who came up with a song that basically   was almost titled like that and I remember when  his song came out I remember I think I must have   been 10th grade I remember listening to that  song on a Perpetual basis there’s more to this  

Life than what we see this concept of because and  I think that’s always a Perpetual question for me   as I even at this stage of my life and I’ve gone  through various iterations of my own spiritual  

Journey is the question of what we see what we  take for take as face value and what is what is   real and what is true sure um now do you find  that that that there’s a difference in between  

How you’re thinking and how you’re sensing and  I bring that up because there seems to be some   consistency that there’s this sense that really  is in the body rather than just in the head and  

You know yeah I think I think that there is one  you know there’s this whole idea of just sort of   being still um and sort and and and knowing and  I think once you are able to be it’s difficult  

To be still in this particular um iteration of  our society because we’re so very busy right um   and so but when when you do have opportunities to  in solitude and silence and being able to sort of  

Anchor in there’s a knowing you sense The Knowing  within was there a process that you we talk about   this being in silence right totally agree with  you and and yes that’s where the do is open how  

Did you get there what were some of the things  that you were able to do to enter that silence   in within yourself well I there’s there’s the  sort of you know the the the growth of it um  

Well that’s Perpetual right I’m learning even more  as as I’m at this stage because I was taught early   this idea of really being able to um to be still  to meditate to have times of Silence it was a part  

Of my practice from very young um as a result I  always felt like I heard God’s voice if you might   call it that whatever that means that that deep  within knowledge however I didn’t really think  

Of it as a thing because it was I didn’t really  put it together as it being a I just thought of   it more as a religious thing than necessarily uh  me needing to sort of have the knowledge but I  

Think um a few years probably in my early my late  20s early 30s when I think it’s a good time when   people I’ve noticed um when people have sort of  done everything that they are supposed to do in  

Their 20s they’ve checked all the boxes so then  their late 20s early 30s is when I noticed that   people begin to like well I’ve done everything I’m  supposed to do and uh this isn’t really working  

And then you have the opportunity to then begin  to to explore what what’s the next so I I went   through that sort of thing i’ finished law school  I’d done a great you know had a very prestigious  

Fellowship the whole thing and then I began sort  of feel like is that same sensation and is this   all there is again right you know right right  right but you know it’s interesting you say  

That the view right you kind of begin to bring  your head up um in 75 when I had 1975 when I had   my Awakening I had the blessing of being able to  talk to a psychiatrist that you know my parents  

Took me there because they were really concerned  he really listened well and then explained to me   you know you’re not crazy you’ve had a spiritual  awakening why so young I’m not sure most people  

Don’t have it till their mid 40s if they ever do  was his response to me and it got me thinking okay   you know at that point I didn’t really care but in  my mid-40s like oh I see what he meant now because  

You’ve the same thing that you’re talking about  only it’s more of the end of corporate career   uh empty nesters that kind of thing where all of  those duties and responsibilities that you once   had are now what do I do next what are they yeah  you know really do think these moments in time  

Are are are gifted to us to shake things up and  to allow us to take um to take account um and I   and and so that’s one I really do think that’s why  I really you obviously there’s no real destination  

Per se it’s perpetual growth I mean because even  every every week There’s a new there’s a new um   for me you know every week every other week  There’s a new understanding that I that I get  

Around my connection to to Spirit and to God but  I I think though that these big big moments when   there’s big shifts you know coming out of your  20s definitely in your mid-40s other stages in   life where you have you’re a little forced to  confront because they’re big shifts right and  

You reevaluate they we’re having big shifts  every day right there’s if we are aware we   we’re actually having shifts on a regular basis  and we can use those moments they don’t have to   be like you know massive earthquake you know what  is it right whatever RoR scale 8 point whatever on  

The RoR scale it can be a little bit of shaking  a little bit of a Tremor but if we’re aware it   brings us closer closer to to to that spiritual  space so I I found over time that I I definitely  

Did a thing you know you’re asking about like when  did I begin to solidify this concept of silence   and Solitude and when at that moment when I really  was like okay I’ve gone down to a to a dark space  

I’ve done everything I’m supposed to do I have  this prestigious career what is the next thing I   don’t feel fulfilled and it forced me to really um  dive into what it meant for me to really exist in  

This world and on the planet and and I think that  was when I sort of started reading what a lot of   you know sort of ancient texts around what people  what people behind before me were doing to connect  

More and that’s when I began to realize what I  had been taught very early on as a young child   around meditating and being still was actually  ancient practices around connecting and that’s how   I began to to make that an important part of my  practice that that’s amazing and quite a wonderful  

Journey too I I had a very similar coming out of  my Awakening one of the first collections I read   was the vadas and I was brought up in a Christian  home I was in deay um my parents were were pretty  

Devout and dad was also a 32nd degree Mason so I  had all of these value systems in place and and   live in them and yet and having read the Bible a  number of times and it seemed like the philosophy  

Presented in the vadas which was were all Divine  threads of this unitive Consciousness in incarnate   with the capacity of becoming God right not the  big G right yeah and even and you know even Jesus   was quoted as saying so as well and then in the  Book of Revelation it talks about God dwelling  

In man well this is kind of all the same thing  so why do we have so many different striations   or delineations of that same philosophy can we  just find that and maybe a core of the essence  

Of of loving and being loved in that place because  that’s really what the I think the the net goal is   right is to have that connection and it’s to love  and that’s where it is yeah how did did that come  

About would you agree with that first of all I I  I think that I think that we’re all very much um   spirits and we’re all having this interestingly  um unique Human Experience and I think that um  

We are we are Divine we are of God because we are  we’re from God and we are of God I think though   this idea of you know can we all kind of you know  get along this concept I I don’t know I I think  

Based on if we are having a human experience  then everyone’s um Human Experience is so very   different and deping we need to allow for it all  right I think that’s where you know the uniqueness   of everyone’s experiences and how people explain  it I think in the end though I think in the end  

Though I think i’ love for people to just you  know my my hope is that it doesn’t have to be   defined in a certain way but that we all are able  to connect to the Divinity within so that we can  

Um I don’t I don’t know really to what extent  you know to what extent that looks like but I   do know that there’s a lot of hurt and a lot of  um Brokenness in the world thatum caused for that  

Is um caused by a lack of understanding of One’s  Own worth and one’s own connection to God that if   if if one could understand just how much they  are connected to God in a real meaningful way  

I think some of that hurt some some of the hurt  would would would would would be addressed some   of the pain that people cause others would also  diminish because I think people do things you   know hurt people hurt people and if you could  begin to have who are healed then they wouldn’t  

Be hurting others so I think as a whole it’s  a it’s it would be great I’m not saying that I   think everyone needs to believe the same thing or  how you know the interpret it the same way because  

Everyone’s experience is different but I do think  there is something core and I do believe we’re all   very connected connected to the Divine in a way I  think where you’re leading with that is to have a   life of compassion and kindness toward one another  as opposed to the aggravation right the the bias  

And the Prejudice that exists to for self and  others you know because I think so but it’s   very difficult to have people I I realized that  even the other day I I was um this this um this  

Concept came to me where [Music] um my you know  I don’t even know how it started coming into my   mind said I was spending some time um in devotion  and it was this this really the thought was like  

My body is my home and my body is my home and  so that that I kind of became repeating and it   was something that I hadn’t really thought about  and I hadn’t realized that I had actually almost  

Disembodied a bit from the con like I I myself  had abandoned my own body because I was still   very living external and this is why I always  say it’s not a destination it’s our continual  

Journey of growth whereas I’ve done a great deal  of connection with God and I’m not at all you know   but when that came to me I’m like well that’s an  interesting thought that I even know that I didn’t  

Have that thought and when I began to sink into  that thought of my body being my home that was the   message that I needed to embody for myself I began  realizing I began Loving Feeling more peace within  

I began loving myself more I began the sort of  messages around um any some of the messages that   were coming through me that I that I would always  have to sort of fight against they began to subdue  

Just with that belief so if you think about the  idea of how much we dislike ourselves because we   don’t recognize our own connection to God our own  Divinity then it’s easy for people to be upset to   to hate themselves or to dislike themselves or  be disconnected with oneself and then when you  

Feel that way some people internalize that  and some people externalize that and so you   have the externalization of the feeling of not  being connected to with oneself not recognizing   their own Divinity and that’s where you know anger  comes in you know even just the idea of not being  

Able to be compassionate or being empathetic  because if you can’t be compassionate with   on self because you’re disconnected right so it’s  impossible to be fully that way with another with   another person yeah and and so I really think it’s  really about if I really have a desire for people  

To really recognize their own Divinity their own  connection to God their own reality that there   is no lack there is no separation between them  and God and once you kind of realize that then   you’re like well then why am I upset about  anything really or why am I angry at anyone  

Or why am I mistreating others because I’m okay  yeah you know when you were talking about being   in the ocean and having that voice not your own  kind of give you this right that that to me was   part of the whole notion of cosmic Consciousness  condensing into form there’s a higher self that  

We are that is that translator or transmitter or  even transceiver if you will as that um navigation   and personal evolution is taking Place yeah it  doesn’t make it necessarily any less um spooky   in in some ways right because you begin to have  experiences that are beyond what you are used to  

And yet invite you to acques to them because the  empathic resonance that you have with them right   there’s this I think we know right we we we know  we know deep down all of us know who we really  

Are um it’s the fact that we have we’re born in a  world where we’re it’s just it’s kind of covered   up and and and other things have prioritized  other pieces of knowledge are prioritized and  

So you kind of just you know put everything and  this is a great story that I that I read in um   a book by John eldr he talks about the the sea  turtle the the sea lion or the sea turtle or sea  

I think it’s a sea lion and the sea lion somehow  the story starts where he’s in the middle of the   desert and you’re like well why is a sea lion in  the middle of the desert and the sea lion at night  

He he dreams and and and hears the ocean it when  it’s quiet but in the middle of the day there’s   this heat and you know he’s just trying to you  know deal with this dryness and he doesn’t really  

Know where he’s from he’s not connected to where  he really who he really is and where he’s from   and he spends all this time he meets a different  a couple different characters along his way and  

Some are just saying you know figure out how to  make it work you this is life for you you live in   the desert make it work so he found like a little  hole that had like a little tiny bit of water had  

A a little bit of a a stoop that he could kind of  sit along and look look above and and he was like   that’s home for him because that’s the closest  he could get and and but yet every night he just  

He hears the ocean in his head and he and he  knows and he Longs for something more and at   some point he begins to realize he like one night  he had the biggest dream where he he saw himself  

In the ocean with other sea lions and other um  you know uh fish and whatever folks that live in   the ocean and he woke up that morning morning  with a little tear in his eye and he says I’m  

Heading back to the ocean he doesn’t know where  it is all he knows is he belongs there and he’s   gonna head he’s heading there and I think that’s  often times what we do we don’t really we we deep  

Down inside know that I mean I think every human  has to know that this is not it right that that   this sort of sense of being disconnected from  each other and disconnected from what is god um  

Is not it but but it’s the idea of how to get  there and that’s where Stillness silence being   able to be in solitude allowing oneself and  even not not being afraid to allow for one’s  

Spiritual sense to to take over a bit to connect  right now we in our pre-show warm-up you know I   mentioned that we basically live half inside and  half outside and that we’ve got caught up in the  

Outer which is fine but we’ve forgotten the inner  we’re kind of bereft of how to get there what it’s   all about and then from that place connecting to  the outer which is what your sealine story was   indicative of right going within in that dream  state in that world within realizing that oh  

That’s really home yes well how do I find that  in the outer and then you you basically create   the outer I think there was a guy one time that  said make the without as the within without as  

Within yeah yeah yeah yeah so it’s the same we’ve  heard this for Millennia yeah and now we’ve got   the opportunity you know especially with Quantum  Sciences now revealing that yeah we’re all energy   so we scientifically now we are all energy so and  what’s got energy it’s everything right there’s a  

Infinite Consciousness infinite intelligence that  is accessible that is individuated specifically   for each one of us because we’re not you know  just the ubiquitous one size fits all right we   each have our own specific I like to call it  perfected form fit and function in the world  

We just haven’t been aware of how to actually seek  that now we understand it’s seems would you agree   that we’re learning how to bring all of these  skill sets that we’ve developed along with that   internal understanding and then kind of change in  the the scene in the outer world with a different  

Kind of application of our skill sets toward that  compassion and kindness Persona and looking for   others doing the same yeah that to be where we I  I do think you know um Dr King had a quote he says  

You know the Arc of the moral universe is long  but it bends towards Justice it’s obviously it’s   a different we’re talking about two different  you know things when he when Hees that quote   First what we’re talking about but I do think  that um The Arc of anything is pretty long but  

It usually bends towards what is truth um and you  know over time you know you know you you’ve lived   a bit longer than I have but I’ve I’ve lived  enough that I’ve been able to see patterns um  

You know it’s hard to see patterns when you’re 10  years old because well you know you haven’t lived   enough right you know you’re 20 you’re like I see  a little bit of patterns but it’s still not enough  

But I think I I what I have observed um around  this is that humans are perpetually and always way   because we all know humans are always perpetually  trying to find what is true and and what is their  

True identity um I think that there’s language  now that is mainstream that wasn’t once was and   people can now kind of begin to feel comfortable  um understanding concepts and using language to   describe what it is that they have known to be  true for a while or things that they didn’t know  

To be true but got a sense that maybe that  was true um and I think that is a good sign   that we are um that people are are more talking  about this but just like anything in humanity I  

Have found that there is this um one a when new  language pops up when new understandings come pop   up there is always a kind of twisting of it and a  misunderstanding of it that then makes there to be  

Additional confusion and I think that that is also  happening at the same time now then um so you see   some folks who recognize that this could be true  this is I really do feel like I am connected to my  

Divine but then you know there are folks who maybe  be like well what it really means we’re going to   twist it to something else and so I I do think to  your point that um in my lifetime I’ve this has  

Been uh a good time where I see people are finally  have language to describe what it is that they’re   seeking a Common Thread the of understanding that  has a similar language and similar meaning that   kind of ripples throughout the thought mosphere  if you will yeah I think that’s probably a fear  

Statement and but at the same time I think you  know we cannot I you know I guess on some level   yes it you if you look back at kind of say you  know the Dark Ages and compare it to now um it’s  

A different vibe I would assume I wasn’t there  but you know based on what history tells us right   um um at the same time my my hope is for there it  you know if you think about Christianity you know  

Christianity was just some of the one of the best  things that kind of popped up at a certain time   this idea that all men are equal that um you know  we can connect to God and mean that we don’t need  

To have a middleman all these different things  and yet you know humans really kind of distorted   that whole thing oh yeah we put everything into  organizational structures manage them all right   well and then there were some folks who were not  so not so did not have great U motives and wanted  

To use it yeah they weren’t good managerial  material right they didn’t want you wanted to   use the religion to suppress people which were  able to do for a long time and still do um so I  

Think as we begin to have these convers as people  begin to be on their Journeys and then people are   having a language around it it can also be it’s  important for folks not to um allow for this time  

To then be rooted in a way to you know manipul  manipulate people or let make people feel badly   for not moving faster than or not understanding  or not going along with it or use it for other  

Means so I do think that it’s a good time it’s  it’s a it’s always a good time the arc is long   and it moves towards goodness at the same time  I do think that um we have to always be aware of  

How we are understanding it for our own selves and  recognizing that we all are a Divine so you can it   can be individualized but it’s great if there can  be a larger movement to towards good right and now  

You mentioned patterns I love that you brought  them up because we’re all kind of cognitive   science scientists right we’re always looking for  patterns and and that’s how we find our way what’s   consistent in how we Bea behave how the world  responds to that behavior and how others are  

Engaged in that as well do you find that there’s  a a consistency in how we are kind of reframing the challenges I guess specifically what I what  I want to ask is do you see that there is a a  

Pattern of what you have strong feelings bias  preice toward that you find yourself in that   place the opposite of where you were what you  holding judgment toward you end up finding your   place in that or finding yourself in that place to  experience the other side of it you find that that  

You know it’s kind of a karmic thing I guess or um  you wanna you want to explain that a bit more just   want to make sure I’m clear on the question sure  so if I hold um judgment toward how a person is  

Or what they’re doing uh or something that they  have done then at some point in the near future   I’m going to be on the clip side of that I’m going  to be in that place and have a whole different  

Perspective of what it’s like to be there in  order to develop the compassion for it as a as an   evolving being because if you don’t it’s hard to  have the compassion for the other person if you’re  

Not experiencing something relative to that does  that make sense yeah no I hear your point I’m in a   lot of opportunities in life and where um you know  not not at this stage of my life so much as when I  

Was probably um in my 20s and early 30s because I  was beginning because I I had a great deal of of   judgment towards there was a way of being a way of  doing there’s a way of existing that I thought was  

Was the way and so I had some some firm very very  very very firm beliefs around how someone should   should be um and during those during those years I  had plenty of opportunities to be on the flip side  

And be able to sort of see oh wait and I think  that’s the thing about life life will I don’t I   don’t really call it humble you but life gives you  opportunities to really become more compassionate   over time because you just realize your own  Humanity um I think when you’re young you can  

You can um have certain ideals which I think are  are great because that you know we something um to   believe in but then you begin to see life show up  and you’re like oh gosh I never thought I’d ever  

Be in that position um and then you begin to have  a bit more compassion for people um so yeah I it’s   it’s I mean I I could list a significant number of  things that once I was like you know I would never  

You know right right right now you’re like now  you’re like oh I I totally understand understand   why they’re like that I mean I don’t and and and  I think too when you when you’re when your people  

Like well I don’t want to lose I don’t want to  lose the things that I think are you know are good   or bad or you know whatever I don’t think that’s  really what happens I think it’s it’s not about  

Losing your own moral compass it’s about just  understanding how someone could behave a certain   way or do a certain thing and while you don’t  necessarily think the way what they did was a good  

Thing but you can understand why they did it or  how they did it or or what brought them to doing   it and that or understanding their own woundedness  yeah in their in yeah reasons why right you can  

You and and and it doesn’t mean that you’re saying  well then it’s okay for them to have done that but   it does allow for you to to understand to to be to  be compassionate um well at that point there’s no  

Real there’s still no judgment hopefully toward  that what there is is greater understanding as   to why yeah which opens door for the compassion I  agree I agree now I do think there are some things  

That can still be you can still say um this is  not a behavior that we as humans should be yeah   like killing people because killing people is  wrong yeah right so there’s there’s a couple of  

Things that fall in line with that and you’re like  yeah no we shouldn’t be doing that that that’s not   something that we want to encourage that’s not a  behavior we want to encourage at the same time you   can understand why someone would be driven to that  whether it’s the woundedness whether it’s hurt  

Whether it’s just you know whatever the thing  is you can kind of be and be like I could see   where they do that still not condoning that yeah  well and we haven’t had the systems for the um  

Um rehabilitate for the habilitation of those who  are in those places we haven’t had the bandwidth   in our service delivery to actually nurture those  into Better Health it’s that privatization of the   penal system and the profit in that that lessens  that desire to actually have those systems to  

Rehabilitate and put people back into especially  with victim’s crimes and things of that nature   to put people back into a productive lifestyle  and you know what else what I think is really   interesting and very cool so my my undergrad  is in Psychology and um I’m really always been  

Quite um really interested in what it you know  mental health and how we are going about it and   I myself have you know of course done my own um  work I’ve you know had a therapist and so forth  

However there is this interesting movement within  this but but for for a long time though mental   health was very um individualizes this concept of  you have trauma or you have something right and   it was DSM driven and and we’re going to fix this  but I think there’s a movement now in the mental  

Health field where there’s a recognition that  there are some things that are showing up that   um particularly um anxiety is one of those that is  really showing up and suicide where this idea of   it’s not the individual it’s not an individual  um problem this is a human human reaction to a  

Larger issue in society and I think that is really  quite um that movement towards um Rec I me because   there are still illnesses there’s still issues  that are very spe um individualized now I I must   admit me saying that as not as not someone who’s  professionally in the field but just because I’ve  

You know being been adjacent to it um I you know  I could be stuck U to that idea simply because I   I still want to feel like there’s individualized  treatments however so you know that that could  

Be a thing however recognizing my own bias but I  do think that there is something to be said for   there is a a a systemic um issue societally that  is causing people to feel anxiety or it’s causing  

People to feel suicidal or is causing people to  feel whatever the thing is that’s um not serving   um them them or Society well is it mental health  that issue is it mental health or is it really  

Emotional health and we’re trying to deal with  things going on in the mind and it’s really got   nothing to do with the mind it has to do with our  emotions and how you know on the one hand you know  

The 70,000 thoughts we have a day probably half  or better are all self-deprecating well why how   do we manage that how do we tune in to others and  help them monitor their own thinking so that that  

Emotional sense of not of being less than has the  opportunity to rise up and at least feeling equal   to if in some cases more than right when you  have specific things and I think it could be I  

I think that it could be emotional health it can  be mental health it could be a mix of both I do   think that I’m really pleased to see that um there  has been a movement towards not only people being  

Willing like the destigmatization of being able  to get help and also that there is a recognition   that some of these things very well could not be  individual pathologies but really be a systemic   thing and that I think is a movement towards  good things totally agree and and as I mentioned  

Earlier you know it used to be DSM driven whether  it’s four or five or whatever the number is today   and for my own experience one psychologist I saw  gave me a total you know Spiritual Awakening my  

Advice to you is don’t talk to anybody because  they’re not gonna understand you and then I had   an experience where um my parents decided that it  was that I needed to be institutionalized for a   bit because I could not stop talking about this  experience and and I put myself in a precarious  

Place I bought a couple of sets of drums put him  in my dorm room and had to move out of the dorm   in middle of winter right didn’t tell him about  it and ended up getting beat up at a frat house  

Ended up the emergency room and it was like okay  we need to give him a break so in that though the   psychiatrist that I talked to came straight from  the DSM 4 at the time and labeled me and drugged  

Me and did not try to understand me in one aspect  of what I was attempting to explain to him as my   story is what was going on with me there was  this oh that’s wrong you’re this and we need  

To treat you with that and you know and then  hopefully you’ll have that will help you and   it wasn’t until I actually told the doc what he  wanted to hear instead of what I wanted to share  

Because I thought he was there for me right he  wasn’t there for me I was there for him and so   I told him what he wanted to hear and all of  a sudden miracle cure yeah and then they start  

Weeding me off the drugs and gradually release me  well that’s a far different story today because   people are recognizing that yeah there is this  internal connection that people have that isn’t   necessarily or hasn’t been addressed in the outer  World appropriately so that this nurturing can  

Take place so that people can actually connect  with God and feel comfortable with what happens   as a result rather than feeling diminished by it  yeah yeah and I think that’s what you’re talking   about in in this movement of becoming more aware  of that individuality and our own expression and  

Connection of it yeah yeah so how do you see  that evolving into the the workplace and and   into um organizations and for instance even from  a leadership perspective well you know I will tell   this that um there are companies are now investing  a great deal of resources into things that in the  

Past were not even would not even pass mustard um  if you had a conversation um you know obviously   there’s sort of the performative wellness stuff  you know oh we got yoga blah blah blah but   there’s also um lots of large particularly large  corporations that have the budgets and obvious  

Obviously have a large portion of the employee  base that are working for them are you know really   starting to provide opportunities for folks to  have these types of conversations around what does   it mean to be authentic and what does it mean to  be um to lead authentically what does it mean for  

People to have emotional well-being and mental  wellbeing without it just being a performative   conversation um and so I do think that um in the  future like we don’t really know right again back   to that Arc being we are coming out of a global  kurer fuffle and redesigning or reimagining like  

Dennis Paka says we’re reimagining Humanity  now how do we want us to be what do we want   the future to look like and what do we need  it to look like for and I I do think that I  

Do think it’s difficult hold I I think every every  step every every inch towards something is a good   thing I think that it it is a a long Arc as we’ve  talked about and as a result we’ll see how long it  

Might take for there to be a a significant push  a significant shift what I have seen um around   leaders particularly you know you the folks that  I work with which are owners and founders of of of   of businesses they themselves are recognizing that  they cannot um they cannot you know do business as  

Usual because their own for their own sake they’re  having a difficult time if they ignore their own   inner worlds then then they begin to burn out  and they aren’t able to to continue so they they   do have to force themselves to um address their  own inner worlds and then they recognize that the  

Generation of folks that are coming into the work  workplace now um they are expecting and demanding   that there be spaces for their to for um health  emotional health spiritual health and so they are   having to then also invest in that as well and  I think that that’s a good sign you know will  

There be a a you know a a sort of a hosing down  of it a cooling down of it I don’t know but I will   say this that anytime there is there are a large  number of people talking about a concept then it  

Has some legs and that to me is better than not  AB absolutely and and we each contribute that   one of I just published my 31st title on Amazon  and it is called the navig it’s called navigating   holistic growth the servant leaders guide so in  this holistic sense not just for Body Mind Spirit  

Planet okay we’re all connected you know we are  the Earth that’s where we get all our nutrients   from however we receive those they come from the  earth that’s what our body is it’s of the earth   and then we have this indwelling Consciousness  that’s from someplace else that combines and so  

Why is that so distant in our understanding and  cognition of in how we’re moving forward together   because that seems to be a growing concern right  how do we connect not only to ourselves but how  

Do we connect to the cosmos who are we really how  many dimensions are we on you know and and what   does this mean in the electromagnetic spectrum  what’s the bandwidth what’s on each one of those  

Regions and there are some uh there’s a theory of  everything that uh Vernon nepi and or Edward close   put out in 2010 called the triatic dimensional  distinction vertical Paradigm and that’s a weird   you know long elongated name however what they say  simply is that Consciousness space and time are  

Tethered across nine dimensions of Consciousness  so or in that doesn’t eliminate other dimensions   just that we have that’s the bandwidth for The  Human Experience so there are reflections of that   same system throughout so that’s nine levels there  talk about pattern recog ition right so this is  

One of those tangents I love to go off on if I can  just have a moment there’s spiral Dynamics nine   levels of it there’s a multi-plane awareness  technique that’s actually a an experiential   journey of those nine planes for an individual  so all of these things have this correlation  

It’s like they Dove tail together they’re saying  the same things from different perspectives one is   totally science-based the other on the opposite  end the multi- level or multiplan um awareness   is an experientially based one so these spiritual  spirituality and science are bridging finally and  

We’re able to have perhaps a common language in  those to bring us to a greater understanding and   ability to evolve more intelligently than we have  previously and that the Educational Systems also   begin to incorporate that because we’ve not had  that today we’ve been focusing on putting people  

In jobs oh yeah yeah and that’s not a bad thing  that’s just that’s another discussion for another   day on the concept of of you know what we are you  know what is the future of Education what is the  

Role of it and what are we supposed to be doing  with it and I do think that um this you know I   was talking to a good friend of mine who’s in  education and I was like you know I said I’m  

Surprised that these conversations haven’t spilled  into the everyday preons as of yet um and I guess   a part of it is because we’re still just trying  to understand you know the world we live in as you  

Know as it is today but I do think that you know  there is something to be said around what what’s   the purpose of of Education like what we want it  to what we want it to be well the word educate  

Means to draw out so there’s got to be something  inside to draw out right why do we start looking   there and actually educate yeah rather than  you know input all the data and just want the   regurgitation of it for specifications right yeah  that’s fair I think that’s very fair so in the and  

This all wraps together this is all part of that  I call it an EVO leap in humanity of seeking that   higher intelligence of understanding ourselves  others how the world Works what is natural order  

And how do we step into that how do we align with  who we really are in the natural sequence of our   own evolutionary path not as as an individual and  collectively yeah yeah yeah and then how do you  

See this in your work how do you see this evolving  and spilling out in into society from the efforts   that you have which are tremendous by the way I  say that the the biggest thing um for me as I see  

As I observe um and I work with business owners  to build their businesses is that um there are a   number of this individuals that at some point um  didn’t see themselves as being able to build a   business or to build a business that could scale  because they never really thought of themselves  

As anything more than an employee and um and you  know employee that had leadership skills but still   an employee I think what you see happening now  this is a humongous uh like a explosion of um   women-owned businesses um businesses of people  of color um people who wouldn’t necessarily  

Have maybe they might have had a business but  they thought it was just going to be a small   M and Pop shop but now they realize oh wait I can  actually I can scale this has yeah you know scale  

I think that’s where you see that kind of owning  oneself because I think in the end if you begin to   think that you’re infinite then you think you’re  infinite so and infinite doesn’t mean it doesn’t   have patterns structure procedures processes  and everything is a process you just have to  

Be willing to figure out what ask the right  questions right to expose what that process is   for each of those things and all the answers are  there you just got to ask the right questions for  

The answers to pop up or to come from within and  as you mentioned I I think that you know in the   end if you can get people to if people do begin  to believe that they are infinite then they start  

Thinking big and thinking about Big Ideas and and  that’s what I that’s what I love that’s what gets   me excited that’s what I wake up in the morning  every day and just like how and with your business  

Consulting you see those incremental steps right  if wow if I can do this what else can I do right   each of those I think it starts from I think it  starts from the top to the bottom so it’s what’s  

The big idea and how does that align what does  that big idea align with one’s life um and so   whatever the big idea is it must align with one’s  life vision and if you have one life life vision  

That also is is is in line and aligned with one’s  sense of being Divine then you have a different um   sure sure where most of what the entrepreneurial  you got a big idea and then you begin to kind of  

Make it create strategy around achieving that  and as you keep going down the funnel you know   you begin to sort of see um on a regular you know  inch inch by inch basis what is what does a 15year  

Goal look like what does a one-year goal look like  what is some strategic uh objetive look like what   is you know tactics look like how do you measure  how do you create kpis around and it just goes  

Down but in the end it’s really about the big  idea if you can have a because I mean Big Ideas   are the only that really inspire people sure and  the vision mission and then you’ve got to follow  

Through with the culture that you create in the  organization to fulfill that yes you do um and and   you know a lot of the work that I do with people  is just really being able to create strategy being  

Able to be able to figure out how then you execute  that at the end but um I think you’re asking about   how does this concept of you know being connect  with the Divine how is it playing out in in in  

The work that I do it’s the idea of more people  showing up starting businesses that scale and   have bigger ideas like expanding the ideas and  being able to uh decide I’m going to scale I’m  

Going to be infinite in the way that I operate  right think that’s how it shows up very cool in   your Explorations what have you found that would  be most worthy to share with others as far as the  

Little details um being able to find a way on a  daily basis to move into that connected space I   think you just have to have a practice obviously  there’s many different ways that people um have  

Done that over the you know Humanity’s existence  um I do think though in this day and age because   of the noise one needs to find a have a practice  that includes silence and Solitude just because   I don’t think you can you can’t compete with  that we just develop a practice perhaps right  

Because most of us are pushed and pulled by what  we perceive the needs and wants are that around   us and attempting to fulfill those instead of and  that’s being you know sucked into the outer world   and feeling like a leaf in the wind sometimes  so how do youer practice developing a practice  

Can because I I think there’s there’s trendy and  then there’s what works for you so you know some   people feel like you know their yoga their yoga  practice is works for them and that might be good  

For you um but it might not work for you and if  it’s not you know there’s so many people I I do   find now more than ever and I think I don’t know  if it’s because of folks that are sort of raised  

On social media versus those of us that had an  existence before social media but um even within   the spiritual space and even within the sort of  understanding your own Divine s space there’s a   there’s almost an uh inability to decide what  works for you and I think so if other people  

Are doing it then that’s what should work for  for me so I’m going to do that my my point more   prescriptive rather than um emotive or or because  I mean we all we all are different we’re all are  

So very unique and so my point is try very these  practices are not new they’ve been around since   Millennia so try various different things that  might work for you to develop and to implement  

Into your life so if meditation is not it for  you the meditation is not it for you right um my   point though is because the world’s a bit noisy  and there are messages that are constantly sort  

Of being thrown at you and pulling you I think  involving a practice where you are silent and   they have some Solitude would be a good idea  that would that you could include that in your   practice and and so just because I feel that it’s  difficult to kind of hear the internal and to  

Connect to the internal because it’s such a noisy  world but whatever um practices work do that and   you will know when you are getting more connected  because you’ll feel the shift within you it’s not   like you’re going to be like I don’t know if I’m  connecting or not you’ll realize it you’ll know  

It um and and just you know develop a practice I  would also say too you know if you haven’t started   the process of healing um start a practice of  healing you know whether it means that you and   whatever modalities again work for you may talk  therapy works for you maybe it doesn’t whatever  

It looks like for you do that I do think that  it I think most people it’s very difficult for   most people to live in this world and not to you  know to not have some uh trauma but that needs  

Some amount of healing some in in processing so  do that be good to yourself do that um and then   develop a practice that keeps you you perpetually  connecting to the Divine whatever that looks like   as well now would you advise to actually look  for these things or to sit with your desire of  

Them showing up and then be aware of when they  do well that’s a really good question you know   I do believe that when the student is ready the  teacher does appear however I think that sometimes  

Depending on you know how people are you know I  know how how I am and um you know the more I read   and understand and and seek knowledge the more  I’m able to like oh okay I’m going to try this  

Or this works or something like that but for but  if you decide that this is where you want to go   if you sort of make an intention to be able look  I’m ready to really connect with my Divine then  

You know obviously I think the things pop up and  show up for you because you’re like wait I had   no idea I was walking on the street and I saw a  bookstore and then there’s this big book that I  

You know it’s been around forever and you’re like  oh wait there you go um you find there in is the   evidence of how that works right and so when you  begin to experience that how do you develop your  

Your faith and trust in it well I think you don’t  you don’t have to you know faith is one of those   things you don’t have to have a whole bunch of  it you know you just need to have a little bit  

Of it and I think one deciding that hey you know  what I think there might be a Divine that I need   to connect to just even saying that alone is Faith  right because you said a thing so I I think people  

Say oh I don’t have enough Faith oh I don’t know  about that you know it it’s about the each step   moves you closer towards who you are because  remember you know you are it’s not like you’re  

Out there saying please I need you to come to me  whatever the entity like it’s it’s within you you   it’s already there you already know what it is  it’s not like a thing you got to go out there  

Trying to find the point is about the practices  we don’t if we weren’t taught those things same   things we weren’t taught leadership we have to  learn leadership it’s the same thing of like what   is learning what those practices are the practices  mind you are not it’s it’s doing the practice is  

Not the goal and I think a lot of people love be  like oh you know I do this and I do that and I do   that and they ritual the the practice is not the  goal the practice is the tool that will get get  

You connected to what is already true that you  are a Divine being and you’re connected to God   in a real meaningful way so it’s you know you’re  not trying to be like oh what are all the things  

And have a long you know you want to get a PhD on  practices that’s not the goal here we just want   to find a couple practices that work for you that  will allow for you to to then be connected and and  

Be able to get that path going and once you’re  there then you know you keep you keep doing you   keep you know keep the path going that’s all you  need to sort of you keep cleaning the path that’s  

All you really need to do we don’t want to over  complicate the process but if you don’t know the   practices if you didn’t grow up in a home where  you know you’re kind of taught some different ways  

If you’re never exposed to these things then of  course you’re going to be like well I really don’t   know what you guys are talking about so therefore  going and reading and seeing what ancient folks  

Did from Melia that helps that really does help it  helps to put a language to it and we all are very   different in the way that we show up in the world  some people are much more intuitive others are  

Much more logical some people are whatever however  it works for you there’s no way of being spiritual   it’s just decide what works for you and go for it  awesome Ken this has been an awesome conversation  

I thank you so much we went into the depths of  how you perceive things and I really loved how   you you presented that view and it really from  my perspective provided a very simple way for   our audience to understand that process and maybe  make it available for themselves too so I really  

App well thank you for having me Zen this has been  a lovely conversation it’s not um often that you   do get a chance to do that I interview quite a bit  with on on many podcasts but this has definitely  

Been one that’s been very unique and I am that  horse of a different color you are that horse of   a different color but it’s been lovely because do  think for whoever is listening if you are on that  

Journey to to connect if you know that something’s  missing if you know that there’s more that you   would like to to explore um to do it because  then if you’re feeling that that’s something   that you wanted that means that it’s seeking  you absolutely and what you seek is seeking  

You as well thank you once again and Namaste and  in lak’ ech and thank you for sticking with us   for this episode of one world new world I’m Zen  Benfiel your host and I will see you next time

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