Good evening everyone. First of all, I would like to introduce myself. I am Sabah Ennaifer, a member of the Kamel Lazaar Foundation team. I have the honor of introducing this evening’s discussion session in 4 to 5 minutes . name of my colleagues and the entire Foundation team to
Thank you for coming in such numbers, it is impressive and it is a pleasure to see that the theme that we are proposing to you this evening for this exchange has motivated an audience many dear friends welcome to everyone at B7L9 I would also like to say a little hello to
Our Internet friends from all over Tunis and also you who follow us regularly on social networks who interact and then those who are connected this evening thank you and [Applause] Welcome under the gaze of the Palestinian artist from Gaza and friends of KLF of
The foundation the artist Hazem Harb who deals in this work with the architecture of Apartheid we are happy to welcome this evening Rima Hassan David Guiraud and Taha Bouhafs for a conversation focused on the Palestinian question in a context certainly under
Tension as you know and in view of what is happening today in the occupied territories and what the Palestinian civilian population is suffering in Gaza this conflict is disrupting our societies and the latest tragic events have provoked violent reactions to the global one, particularly
In our Arab countries but also in Europe, in France in particular, the political and media treatment of these events has highlighted sad facts, firstly the limits assigning freedom of expression to countries that are generally designated as the holders and champions
Of this freedom then the closing of minds generated by moral relativism and nihilism or indifference finally the catastrophic impact and collateral damage on the world of art and culture the B7L9 where we are gathered today, a place dedicated to artistic, cultural and intellectual expression par excellence, has been since its creation
In 2019, a little over 4 years now, an agora where minds meet, exchange and mutually enrich each other around the issues that torment our societies far from any anchoring or political bias the B7L9 strives to offer a peaceful and peaceful atmosphere
Where freedom to speak with respect for other and taking into account the diversity of opinions and origins it is in this spirit that we welcome this evening our three guests three emblematic figures of the defense of Palestinians in France allow me to
Introduce to you RIM Hassan jurist and French activist Palestinian whose commitment to Palestinian rights is total RIM carries a whole history and the memory of refugees she founded the Refugee Camp Observatory in 2019 and recently in 2023 I think due to recent events she founded the collective Action Palestine France David Guiraud,
French MP, rebellious activist who constantly denounces all forms of violence and aggression against civilians as is sadly currently the case in Gaza. The conversation will be moderated by Franco-Algerian tah BFS committed journalist and attentive observer of social movements who will certainly bring a unique perspective on the events
Taking place on the ground and the defense of the Palestinians in France. These three voices seem to be in the minority in France because they are so little publicized at the almost invisible limit. We give them here in our space an opportunity to make them more audible because
They must be able to speak out of solidarity and for support for Palestine we also give them the opportunity to discuss and converse together in this art center in Tunisia, an open place for critical thinking and discursive without interruption and freely
Our guests are gathered to debate this question of freedom of expression in France in connection with the tragedy which is unfolding before our eyes this freedom of expression which remains hostage to extremist speeches of all sides even though we must remain reasonable, defend the
Values of social justice and never forget the human aspect before speaking out to our guests allow me to remind you of the importance of listening attentively, respecting differences of opinion and contributing to a constructive exchange of ideas far from hateful and divisive speech, let’s create this sharing space this
Evening in order to understand the challenges faced by those who defend the Palestinian cause in France Thank you for your listening again thank you for your presence and your commitment in this crucial discussion good participation in [Applause]
All you hear me good evening thank you for being so numerous and numerous here this evening we are very happy uh to be here among you I would like to start by uh thanking the B7L9 center the el Lazar Lina Lazaar foundation particularly and then the entire Foundation team who it must be
Said have worked hard so that we can be here to be there in a few days at the base this this conference it had to in any case this discussion we had thought about it to take place in France and after calling a few rooms we quickly realized that
It was going to be a little complicated to receive this discussion and then I spoke with Lina and in fact very quickly after seeing the demonstrations in front of the French embassies in front of the French representations I admit to you that I, who am critical of my country and who am critical
Of the political action of our government, I felt a little sick at heart I had a little heartache because we still have a lot of people in this country in our country who do not agree with the way things are happening in Gaza who do not do not agree with the way
Things have been happening in Palestine for over 75 years and above all do not agree with the way our government is handling the issue and it is also not in agreement with the historical position which has been that of France for so many years
So we said to ourselves that it would actually be interesting for us to come here to Tunisia to discuss to say that there is another voice despite the effectively criminalization of activists who campaign for the rights and respect and dignity of Palestinians despite the invisibility of Palestinian voices
In public debate which are almost non-existent and when they are present on television sets well are indicted do not have the opportunity precisely to be able to develop to be able to speak in fact politically about the Palestinian question and
Are very quickly brought back to but then you condemn not Hamas but then the attacks of October 7 as if finally this conflict began on October 7, no this conflict began more than 75 years ago and in reality it is not a conflict it is a
Colonial war which caused so many deaths which caused so many refugees who left so many injured and people who were denied their most basic civil and social rights so we wanted to organize this discussion with Rima who fights fiercely on television sets in the social movements to imposing this Palestinian question
For a long time already and David H parliamentarian who also does it on television sets and therefore we wanted to bring this other voice of France but also to alert on the way in which things are happening there is there is a few days the Council of State
Validated the expulsion of the Palestinian activist Mariam Abouaka who is currently imprisoned in France and who remains at risk of being expelled to Israel with the consequences that we know this can have and so much so. and there are so many activists who are today, for example,
Accused of advocating terrorism for having expressed the legitimacy of Palestinian resistance which is also enshrined in international law since in Gaza it is an occupation that is taking place on this territory and so here we wanted to come perhaps somewhere and understand to restore
Part of the honor of France and to say that there are voices which do not accept the way it’s happening and we also wanted to come and discuss with you to take your expertise for because often these exchanges are vertical we think that it is
The French who have things to teach the world we must also put an end to this way of thinking that the West in fact has lessons to give to the whole world of freedom, equality of fraternity while they do precisely the opposite and we saw it today this sequence allows us to
Bring down the masks also somewhere from this moralizing West which refused for weeks to simply call for an end to the fire so here we come to discuss here with you and I thank you once again for coming to this discussion it
Will have uh three stages the first stage we will talk about the political aspect of things in particular uh in the National Assembly where we know that uh the president of the National Assembly called for unconditional support for Israel and moreover he traveled uh in the company
Of the tsal soldiers and who uh finally gives a blank to Israel for uh to carry out this savage repression that we therefore know a first part uh on the political question on what possibility what perspective how do we is organized on the political question
Another part on the media aspect talking about the invisibilization precisely of the Palestinian ways and the media treatment of the Palestinian question and a third uh a third a third step which is that of talking about the consequences for we actually care
About this sequence on the question of freedom of expression on the question of culture on the question of what does that say about us as a society and what consequences will that leave and then there will be a time for discussion with the public with questions and answers so I’m
Going to uh we’re going to start with David Guireud on politics since it’s your area what can you tell us about the situation and how it is – what are you organizing yourself at France
Insoumise already I would like to thank uh the BCL 9 center uh all the people we are going to see this evening which promises to be a beautiful evening and then the Camel Lazar Foundation will take place Lina Lazar in particular and then perhaps start by telling you
That it does me a lot of good to be here. I say it because it’s true that I also really thank Taou who always helped me. shake like that telling me David we have to move we have to
Do things so who forced me to come to Tunisia because he told me but come come come see what is happening and and and indeed It feels good because we see people, we talk with them and we realize that there are really a lot of us on this
Planet who share the same impression. I didn’t come, I also say it, only to seek refuge because that it’s true that in France when we want to do something about Palestine it’s always the same answer it’s complicated it’s always complicated but also because
I believe in fact I’m convinced that I I have things to learn what I say on TV sets I’m not inventing it I’m not Palestinian I haven’t had this experience on the other hand I have friends you’re one of them who uh know much more intimate the question of
Colonization I have in my entourage someone who is in the Assistant I believe who is so beautiful who is Francolibanian who tells me who gives me the elements uh it is uh these people and
In fact they are the Arab countries which when we take into account their opinion their opinion teaches me things and allows me to be more fair in the application of my principles and my political struggles obviously I come to say what you said has a voice in France and I even think
That it is in the majority to defend the Palestinian cause not only because people do not like to see images of massacre which is the case but because there is a long tradition in my country today forgotten, I don’t really like hitting on my institutions
Abroad I still remain a patriot despite everything but when I see my President of the Republic he puts our embassies in difficulty he puts our embassies in difficulty institutions abroad because his great fault is that when he speaks he doesn’t speak in French he speaks to
Himself when he speaks to the world he speaks to his mirror, that’s what he has to do with me. the word which is which is which is difficult we will talk about it later but the fact of inventing declarations
Like saying we are going to launch a great war against terrorists in the same way as Daesh almost to bring France in at war eh and then the next day to tell us well no it’s a coalition for humanitarian all that does not make the task of
French institutions abroad easy which are disciplined which apply and it is normal the instructions of the politician but it there is a voice in France which has risen which has liberated itself which has come from a long current and not from a single one you have a right-wing Shirakenne goulist tradition it is
Not good we talk a lot with them but who has always been concerned that France is an independent, non-aligned voice today, what saddens me is that the French position has aligned itself with the United States of America. This is the fundamental issue for understanding what is happening
Since Nicolas Sarkozi, that is to say since the beginning of the 2000s we joined the integrated command of NATO and since then we no longer really think for ourselves so it’s been a challenge. good when we have speakers like Dominique de Villepin who made France shine
At one point by saying but we don’t want to envy the IRAC with you Afghanistan but that’s missing but there are voices that still exist there are paths from the communist tradition which a great tradition in France of the fight against imperialism which was close to the
Palestinian cause there is an alter-globalization path closer to the libertarian ecological movements which met regularly in forums to say but we cannot accept what is happening in Palestine so the problem is that since it is not an everyday subject we have to
Wait for the shock for it to wake up but I see in the mobilizations in France an energy powerful people who call for a cease fire who call for peace and who bring our principles to life in France and that is the problem today that
Our leaders do not understand. I know my comrades they told me offered a B it was a former frank freedom equality fraternity I had no choice I had to put it I put it now like that it’s the comrades but freedom equality fraternity is not just for us -even
In France but suddenly we have to apply these principles how come we proclaim self-determination for the Ukrainian people but the Palestinian people have no right to it it is just for France to go to the end of these principles is neither more nor less and that’s
Unfortunately what we lack and then because the timefil that’s what I’m very talkative I also want to thank I had already done in Lille during one of a gathering but those who are holding on there I had said it if only he could
Hear us I hope that they will hear us thank those who are beaten for information so that information circulates so that we know Shiren abouaklé who was assassinated by the Israeli state douarf Mr. Aldadou who lost part of his family a few weeks ago killed by Israeli bombings Mr. AA photo reporter
Journalist who informs us day by day that these people are risking their lives, including those who work for the UN at the refugee agency who have lost more than 50 people in recent bombings and all these figures which make it hold the
Emergency workers the ambulance drivers I also look with great emotion at these people who carry out the ultimate duty to the end there is a beauty in what is done the struggle it is not only sad me I I I also try to show that this courage forces us
As French people as inhabitants of all the countries of the world to say but if they do it we must follow through with our ideas that’s quite simply I’ll stop there for the first part uh Rima you are more in the associative world how do you see today
The way in which the political world behaves on the Palestinian question good evening I wanted to thank you for the invitation I am very happy to be there you have no idea I’m going to start by saying two words to you I know that Palestine is in
Your heart and I want to tell you that you are in the hearts of the Palestinians that already to lay the foundations I know and you also know that Palestine in the Arab world and the sea of all battles that too second base and the Palestinian question in fact it is
One for before answering your question just resituate the fact that the Palestinian question is extremely structuring if you are not clear on the Palestinian question you are square on nothing at all no it’s true and that’s why it is also very complicated
To understand very complicated to master too but it is very structuring I will perhaps be harsh but I have to that I tell you things as I see them as a Palestinian when a Palestinian is persecuted you are persecuted when a Palestinian is killed
You are killed when a Palestinian is humiliated you are humiliated why because it was said in introduction the Palestinian question it is part of the tradition of decolonial struggles and in struggles for independence here you have to know where
We are talking about we are talking about Tunisia you also place yourself in this history of humanity you have also been a moment in your history in a process of decolonization in a process of liberation from all forms of oppression of a state which was colonizer of a colonial empire the
Palestinians find themselves today in this struggle and therefore when we need to resituate the Palestinian question it is absolutely necessary to resituate it in this structure so that was said in the introduction before dealing with the political question it is also necessary to deal with this
Of this mirror in fact and at the beginning I will not hide from you that I at the at the beginning I said to myself but what are we going to do discussing Palestine-France in Tunisia I I I didn’t understand
The approach at the beginning I said to myself we have we are already discussing a lot of what is happening in France in France come we discuss Palestine Tunisia here and in fact I realize that it is not
Worse because it is by being here that we can put into perspective and mirror how a question can being like that of Palestine can be treated with a particular context which is that of a country of a given society and therefore there we can mirror why
In France we speak of Palestine in such a way why in Tunisia we speak of Palestine in such a different way and when we have in fact resituated these bases when we have resituated the subject that we are in a society when we have resituated the citizens that we are and the
Past that we have we manage to unravel in makes the politicization or the political media treatment even social here is societal of the society of this Palestinian subject here we are in the global south so Palestine is there is a mirror effect in France we are rather on the side
Historically of the countries which have dominated who have oppressed and who in fact today expresses solidarity also towards other oppressors so in fact the dynamic of the mirror is not the same and that must be understood, it must be understood and its political discourse must be resituated in
This context, I can’t talk about Palestine uh like I’m going to talk about it in Tunisia or like I’m going to talk about it in France it’s not possible I’m not addressing the same citizens I I am not addressing the same history, I am not addressing the same political context and I am
Not addressing people who have the same relationship with the world, so that is why I am telling you that the Palestinian question is extremely structuring it is at the heart of the dynamics which can also arise in the world and it is one of the last colonial subjects to be treated
And that is why in fact in my opinion it also splits societies and therefore for the Franco question -French it is extremely violent for me to be in France extremely violent because I faced genocidal speeches which were relayed over and over on TV sets it was introduced I was introduced as an activist
Me I’m not very comfortable with this label I mean that I suffer from being Palestinian it’s not a career I’m happy to be there but it’s not a career I would have liked to have the luxury to be able to live outside of this label now I feel
Constrained to say who I am to say where I come from to say who we are as a people because these voices are almost non-existent and therefore what happened in France it’s unforgivable it’s unforgivable that is to say what happened to us Palestinians in France in recent weeks and I remember writing
A few texts to some journalists saying there is a genocide which is going to happen because the discourses that we allowed to infuse into society which consisted firstly of leaving discourses animalizing the Palestinian subject so when we animalize it means that we exclude
Someone from the human community secondly we essentialize the Palestinians of Gaza there are no innocents in Gaza there are only terrorists when we essentialize we remove precisely this logic that potentially there could be people like you and me men women
With dreams with hopes with hopes and we have completely infused the idea that in Gaza there are no innocent people even children they are future Jadists they are Islamists in power and there are no innocent people and thirdly we allowed the idea to be instilled
That we could get rid of the Palestinians, that is to say that we either had to go and expel ourselves into the desert or we had to accept the idea of what is happening that Israel was also going to carry out a ground offensive and so what happened honestly I
Could never have thought that in 2023 we could witness it. that is to say really a ciidarian propaganda which is relayed in France therefore the media treatment it was catastrophic and because there are also few Palestinian voices because the
Palestinian ways are also silenced for this relationship of domination too that I have exposed I think that the Palestinian paths are less credible than the pro-Israeli paths in France it is a state of failure today we must also recognize it we are in this balance of power we must in fact analyze
In the dynamics the balance of power in which we are, I place myself in it, I see clearly that my voice has more difficulty carrying than the voice potentially of well precisely politics which calls for unconditional support that’s it’s it’s still terrible to say that a
Palestinian path which is a path of a people oppressed for 75 years has less impact in France in the country of human rights than a political word which calls for unconditional support you were approached by policies for your expertise for they are not said pe a voice not
Tin maybe something to take yes yes yes I was off here a little in advice a little but also in denunciation because suddenly I come from to the question of the political treatment we have forgotten the Palestinian question for at least 30 years on all political sides
I some have been a little more alert than others it is undeniable but today everyone deplores the fact that the occupied territories are colonized that there are 100,000 settlers without them occupied territories that in fact today well the question of the two states it becomes complicated I
Have a question to ask what did you do for 30 years to stop this colonization which we know that everyone witnessed it took place under our eyes this colonization for 30 years there is not a man or woman politician who during
These 30 years proposed a very concrete measure to leave a speech which consisted of bringing the question to light the Palestinian question to maintain it as a current subject on which all citizens had to continue to be informed and what happened was that in fact we had a
Huge gap, a huge void where no one was interested anymore to the Palestinian question when we say that no one is interested in the Palestinian question in itself anymore it’s not very serious what is serious it means that when we say that it means that there is no longer anyone who
Has control the Palestinian question and when there is no longer anyone who really masters the Palestinian question we arrive at the situation that we had on October 7 the news which returns in an explosive way with incredible violence and there mobilization only emotions a mobilization
Finally you see a mobilization of emotions and a management but catastrophic in fact catastrophic of this question no one had this reflex or someone the girls still did a lot of work but there were still few voices which were measured which have been
Solid uh really in their speech and which consisted of saying what is happening today it is contextualized in 75 years of relationship of oppression of domination of colonization and we found ourselves in an endless debate is that Hamas is a terrorist group or not
But imagine for me a Palestinian going through that it was but it was terrible terrible so the treatment the approach in fact political in fact what we can blame the politicians and I hope that this error will not happen again because we have completely neglected the
Palestinian question for a very long time to a point where it is no longer even in the political programs, that is to say that there has been very little of parties there was LFI but there were very few parties
For the summer days so the annual meeting of all the political parties which held a round table on the Palestinian question there is only lesfi which has made a no other party has done here has brought to light in fact we have put forward this question as being
A topical question that we must continue to address and and therefore in the face of this void there here we are, we find ourselves in situations where we are more capable of mastering the subject and we are more capable of
Mastering the current affairs of this subject and so I just end with a word that we can also blame politicians for and I think that it’s very it’s it’s really what we are experiencing in France this climate of division also between religious communities which is deplorable what
Happened which I also do not forgive our politicians it is that we have confiscated our natural empathy me as a Palestinian of course I have empathy of course it must be said Palestinians we have empathy for the Israelis it’s not it’s not that monsters
We don’t see them as enemies at a given moment there are also civilians in fact Israelis there are things that I, as a Palestinian, clash with me I ca n’t accept everything I want say the violence that we suffer but I cannot accept all the
Violence I can explain this violence but I do not want to say that I am ok with all this violence so I at a given moment had an empathy which is natural which which a human empathy
And I think that on the other side there are people who also had empathy in France that was also expressed there are many people who are of Jewish faith who were very supportive with whom the are in solidarity with what the Palestinians are suffering in particular
The Palestinians but especially the Palestinians that the Palestinians followed to Gaza and what happened is that we had politicians who confiscated our natural life and who transferred it or asked us to transfer it to Israel I did not have a space in France where I could say
Yes I deplore and I can be alongside this of what Israeli civilians may be experiencing in fact there at that time on this question of the innocent in fact but when I show this empathy there it is not support and it will never be support for Israel as a State as
Which oppresses us and this space there did not exist the only march the only gathering that was organized was I support Israel or Einstein Israel which was organized by several organizations and it was really a support it was a confiscation once again of
My empathy which could be there for me as as Palestinian and who asked me as part of this march to transfer my empathy to a state, that’s it, it’s very dangerous to do that, it’s extremely dangerous and it’s only on the Israeli question that we does that I
Find it deplorable tomorrow if there is an attack I will end on this if tomorrow there is an attack or something which targets, imagine civilians I am taking this example because we are going to reuse it to demonstrate the hypocrisy that ‘we currently have in France from Ukraine Russia tomorrow there is an
Attack which targets Russian civilians we are in a dynamic of boycott with Russia we agree in France ok something is happening which targets Russian civilians we have the right to say that we are in solidarity with Russian civil society in view of what it may have possibly experienced
Or what it may have suffered at what point we are going to tell the French you are coming to march in solidarity with the Russians and that means Russian flag and that means support for Putin no it’s
Not possible we must be able to walk we must be able to support each other as human by our conditions by our our our status as citizens without however this solidarity is automatically confiscated transferred as being a witness of support or solidarity towards a state that is not possible and it is the
Fundamental error that was made by politicians in France it is for not having been able to offer us spaces of empathy of solidarity without this being recovered as support for Israel by speaking precisely of this confiscation of the empathy of these transfers there
Is this demonstration which is organized on Sunday in Paris said against anti-Semitism organized by a certain Yel Bron pivé president of the National Assembly who applauded unconditional support for the Israeli state in the National Assembly can you
Tell me what is going on? ‘went to the National Assembly at that time so that he had the quarter of the Assembly almost who applauded this this this statement of Y for a private and the manifestation of your position in relation to the demonstration I believe that it is
The moment it is the moment which in fact fractured the country what happened in the National Assembly we were a few days after October 7 but we were not the 7 it was not the 7th there had been
A few days when the killings actually started in Gaza so we knew it’s not fair there are the militants knew how allit Israel was going to respond we knew it when we knew the and the political project of the people who are at the head of this state we knew it but there
Was no need to say be careful it’s going to happen it was happening there were killings I think it happened on a Tuesday because ‘in general it’s during the questions to the Government on Monday or Tuesday I don’t know anymore and so we arrive at the National Assembly
We know what they are going to do we know that they are going to talk about October 7 it’s normal to the National Assembly we often pay tribute he the last time there is there is a Desénédic worker from an electricity company who died during the hurricane we stand up we pay back
Tribute these are moments of national unity we do it we knew that they were going to pay tribute to the victims of October 7 we also knew that they were not going to be very talkative about the Palestinian civilians who were being killed by against me there is something that
I really did not know and it was a very intense moment to experience very emotionally even to see a President of the National Assembly we must understand for us it is the 4th character of the State it’s not just anyone 4th character of the State who speaks therefore who
Starts to say the Israeli civilian victims people applaud it’s normal he stands up and then who continues by saying something like and then I I would like to assure that Israel is a friendly country. We are beginning to feel the difficulty that has arrived with our comrades and that can benefit from our
Unconditional support and there the divide was made in fact in the natural reaction of parliamentarians 3/4 of the Assembly applauded comrades of ours from the nupes applauded but we looked at each other we all looked at each other eh we didn’t applaud we
Didn’t applaud the unconditional support because we knew that it was a madness because it was more a position of empathy it was a geopolitical position we had left that’s it we were we were already more in the homage and and to live it’s it’s painful because like
You said Rima, we would have liked to be associated with that but there was no question of applauding the unconditional support because the killing had started in fact it had started years ago eh but we knew that it was going to accelerate and so there
Was the moment of cleavage and then after that was the festival we have political leaders in France who have in fact completely swallowed all the elements of language of the propaganda of a colonial state carrying out ethnic cleansing
All Israel has the right to defend itself al this one is the right but but what right gives you that what right does international law no you do not have the right to bomb like that a country that you militarily occupy international law it is clear what right Hamas has then either the
Palestinians are all complicit we got it eh or the Palestinians use Hamas uses the Palestinians as civilian shields and it’s true that it reminded me of a old saying which is that each accusation of Israel is a confession that’s when I
Found myself saying but wait but the the the human shields it’s it’s Israel who used it we know that’s proven, the baby in the oven, you still realize that the media are disseminating this information, there is no problem for me, I’m sure there will be one
In one or 2 years when it will be a little bit past that it won’t cost much in fact symbolically politically economically to say we made a mistake ah really it was it wasn’t great but in the meantime
They are retransmitting these elements there the baby in the oven it was made is made by Israel the mother is belly it was done it’s true by Israel during the during in 40 I think it’s Sabra and chatil there and then me I and and in fact it forces us political leaders to
Always be in the in the against -attack but we cannot we cannot go to the heart of the subject which is colonization and if you add on top of that the elements then there of diversion but I say there is a rise in anti-Semitism in France there a rise in tensions
It’s true but for 3 4 days when you turned on the TV you had the stars of David tagged in blue in the 16th arrondissement or 14th arrondissement of Paris 3 4 days like that where we were told the proof of the rise in anti-Semitism that’s it and after for 3 4
Days wait it comes yes because the pizza is necessary there are a lot of ingredients in the pizza so for 3 4 days we had to talk about that without information if you deny it or if you express
A reservation because when I saw that, I saw it, I said to myself, it’s weird all the same. the star is a Star of David it’s not a sign then it’s blue anyway but I didn’t say anything because I thought well maybe maybe it’s true finally I mean
So we say nothing for 3 days and then it turns out we got the information a few days ago I think it was yesterday or the day before yesterday that it was a Moldovan couple supposedly commissioned
By a Russian who himself explains that it was an action of support for Israel and the French Jews, meanwhile we have a Minister of the Interior, one of the most important figures in the State who held a press conference in knowing that it was a Moldavian cut
He had the information saying there is an Islamism in the atmosphere so he did not put the responsibility directly because he protects himself legally he is smart but who puts the blame on Muslims on French Muslims we had more recently uh something
Which was very shocking it’s true uh some information a Jewish woman was stabbed uh in Lyon the same 3 days we say to ourselves it’s terrible well I say to myself that I say to myself ah no finally it’s horrible it turns out that a few days later the investigators tell us
We can’t exclude the theory of self-mutilation and there it’s the same there are 48 or 72 he investigators same articles from BFM tell us it’s strange when even the video surveillance cameras show that there are no people passing by this woman’s house, it reminds me it was C who went
First but the story of the rerd in France it was it’s a story where we had again accused an Arab man of having done something of having attacked a woman I believe at the time uh while it was a self-invention and it’s terrible
Because there are anti-Semitic acts in France it exists of course it exists Europe which has terrorized anti-Semitism moreover so there are some on the Lyon affair we still said that it was a Muslim who had come who had said allahakbar Allah laakbar before yes the
Signature even that he would have thrown a slipper he would have left a I there he would have burned a a cross he would have tagged a cross a swastika finally everything was uh well we don’t again,
My, I prefer to be careful because we don’t yet have all the elements on this affair in Lyon, but on the other hand we have them on the Stars of David affair and in fact
There is a rule there. in the media that which is a rule behind in a day there are only 24 hours so when you spend 10 hours talking about a subject it is 10 hours that you will not talk talking
About the substance of Palestinian colonization to talk about making reports and in addition for the media this kind of subject is perfect there is no there is no need to report it is expensive a reporter on site eh whether it is Israel in Gaza it is expensive there you take you do as
It is is news you take a columnist you take a guy out of the underground like that hop you put him on the set he’s stupid he’s going to say stupid things it’s going to attract an audience and at the moment when
There’s more audience C pure publicity and presto the money flows but that’s how it happens in a set like this I don’t need a reporter why should we bother to seek out the truth when economically it’s better Elisabeth Levy Pascal pro all the champions
Eh it’s it’s it’s the Justice League in there but at BFM it’s not necessarily better they invited extremely dangerous people because there is BFM then in the basements there are i24 news i24 news you have then there you have it’s the total of the types completely illuminated and
And and finally I maybe we’ll maybe make a cut because we still have to transmit the word but in the among French political leaders there are some who know very well what they are doing but abib that’s what he does when he says the Jew and the Frodisiac of the masses he
Does he knows very good what he does but I see some of the colleagues deputies of lrem the last time we were in front of an elevator I was with a colleague from Marseille a colleague with a big mouth he
Fell at the wrong time he was in front of me and a colleague from Marseille who is after all someone who and and he starts to attack us talk about that and I take it I I I wanted to
Shake him what I say but but but it’s before your eyes you looked at what he says the Minister of Tourism when he says that they are going to shave gas and who are going to put up hotels have you listened to
Israeli Prime Minister Netanahou who quotes us the prophecy of Isaa of Jesse it is before your eyes what do you not want to see what is it that you don’t want to admit to yourself and in fact he doesn’t want to
Admit to himself an unconscious is that France also colonized and that it’s his own history that he is looking at and he doesn’t want to tell himself come on, I’ll pass the floor because I’m starting to be ah it’s good precisely on the question of media treatment so you have gone
Recently these last weeks these last months on television sets to defend the Palestinian question is that that today it’s really worth going there in the sense that we know that these are devices in fact which are often tricky where you find yourself
Facing three contradictory qu 4 C sometimes in certain programs with completely delusional remarks where finally people came out of rationality they came out of saying that you can you you can come with your expertise with figures with history and so on and in fact
People who say anti-Semitism couscous whatever finally and is that somewhere it’s always worth going there, is it still land that we have to invest in then it’s land that is very complicated to invest in, that’s undeniable and that I don’t know if it’s done
So carefully on the part of all the journalists also there is a lot of ignorance a lot of contempt once again for a word from a subject I identify with the Palestinian even if I I am now naturalized French, I see clearly that I am also considered, finally, I
Speak as a colonized, oppressed person and what this experience is like, so it is a question that I ask myself a lot like many people I also think who come from immigration who are suffering in France today and who ask themselves the question of are
They in good conditions to lead the struggles they want to lead to achieve the projects that they want to do there is really a question also which is deeper eh the question of racism and Islamophobia also in France uh so I kept silent in these
Questions on the Palestinian question I in my opinion I also really take responsibility for it and as a duty to do it it’s not pleasant I’m not always well received I don’t want
It there’s black on the board there’s also a lot of space where I am anyway there you go It’s this evening, it was really great, I was given the floor, I was allowed to speak out, but it’s true that not very long ago I was on a set and I was asked
To position myself on Hamas and I was told well I specify that you are not Islamist in parentheses to introduce me so well that’s it it’s you say the ridiculousness in fact in which we are uh on depending on the stages and depending on the level of the debate
But for me it is a responsibility in any case that again and I will tell you why not to here throw flowers at me but my word it has a symbolism but it can be mine as it can be that of another refugee but I am a descendant of the refugees of
Laanba so my family experienced the nakagba of 1948 therefore the expulsion of the Palestinians 800,000 Palestinians who are expelled in 1948 on 1lion 14 so my grandparents my last grandparents they are going to be kicked out of their house so when we say chase it’s still
Very reductive finally it’s we it’s we ambéie the thing the Nakba c It’s not just exile, it’s the massacres, 532 villages are going to be razed, it is truly ethnic cleansing but really on a large scale also at this time, that is to say that there is really what is Palistine
At this time – there disappears in part, that’s why we call it the catastrophe and in addition add to that the dimension of exile and therefore the fact that we are we have no longer been
Authorized to come back on our note so me I am a descendant of this Nakba my family will be settled in the camps in Syria in the Nerab camp and I will be born in this camp so if you want I come from a place which is extremely loaded with Palestinian memory I
Come from a place where there are 75 years of transmission of what we are, what is our pain, what are our indications and what is also our pain because often the Palestinian subject is presented as an extremely politicized now terrorist
With here is the recovery of Hamas et cetera but there are very few people who talk about our pain for me the first emotion that comes to me is first of all pain after anger and
After the desire to put into action but it is first of all pain and therefore my voice but once again it could be that of another refugee it is extremely powerful because it recalls what Israel has been since its beginnings it is not there to to say it’s nataniaahou
The problem is this motor or it’s such and such a law it’s there to say the project of Israel as a whole all the people who have been at the head of this government to one exception but Rabine in fact he also persecuted the Palestinians a lot and at one
Point we Palestinians got tired of taking what is the least worst to say that it is the best no it remains the least worse but and therefore the Palestinian way it is in this C in this context there it is it consists of saying from the beginning there is something which is
Racist colonialist which excluded the Palestinians which wanted to get rid of the Palestinians and it is this project as a whole which must be questioned in its ideology I mean because when I say that people will tell me you want the destruction of Israel no it is in the ideology
Itself and therefore for me it is still very important and precious that the voices in particular of those who are descendants of laanakba not analysts not historians not experts et cetera who really come to analyze the news and only the news it is important that there
Have words from these descendants there too who come back here they come to me if you want it makes me smile a little I need to smile because the framework the context is still very but I see myself as the boomerang effect of what Israel has done to us since 1948 that
1948 Bouron he says what he expels the Palestinians and he says the old people will die the young people will forget well my old people are dead I haven’t forgotten coming back for me on a
TV set it’s is to come to contradict Benourion to say in fact we have not forgotten and no one no Palestinian Paltinen no Palestinian has forgotten in fact there today I often go to refugee camps the Palestinians they are high like that and they are able to
Locate the village of their their grandparents the village of their on the paternal side of the maternal side and when you ask them what is their biggest dream to liberate Palestine so it is important here to say so me if you want my word it is inscribed in that it
Is inscribed in something which belongs to the Palestinian which is this memory uh which is also the fact there is I said that I was acting in responsibility because I know that from where I come, the Palestinians have not forgotten this cause and so I see it as an opportunity
Today to also be able to have political media spaces to be able to carry it but what is certain is that it is extremely painful because that it is violent because there are few spaces where we are kind to us, there are few spaces where we Val
What we are going to say and we have the impression that we actually almost have to justify our presence or our very existence on the set of C this evening where it went well when I told when
I said this sentence which has been repeated a lot where I said but in the name of which I cannot return to the village of my grandparents, that is to say that today we Palestinian refugees do not have this right of return we were expelled and we cannot apply the
Right of return when I said this sentence in the face of voices that were pro-Israeli I said in the name of what me today who can look me in the eyes today tell me, a Palestinian refugee, that I cannot return to the village of my
Grown-ups who can do it in fact I who can feel legitimate to do that to me and I have Pascal Zonzein in front of me who says oh we are not going to enter into the victim competition it is
That really even in these moments where we lay ourselves bare uh we are in these moments where we are going we are in something which is which is outside of politics in fact we are in something in we are in the human story we are in the story the intimate personal journey of
Each and every one to say but I come from this land my family comes from this land we are deprived of it we grew up in camps that’s where we are it’s that C generations
Of my family who are sacrificed and we have in front of us even in serious plateaus like it is this evening people who finally tell me who say a Palestinian word once is mine but it could have been that of another person who tells us well sorry
I’m going to be vulgar but you’re pissing us off what really we have the impression that we’re pissing off the world ourselves exist to recall the fundamentals which are still our rights and therefore it is a very important area to invest because there are few of us to do it
But it is extremely painful and I must say it, I I don’t feel respected I do n’t feel respected in my Palestinian words I don’t feel that’s when we say we listen to you but we specify that you are not an Islamist finally that’s what I mean it’s inaudible it’s unbearable
When I tell the story from my family I say that well I would like to understand why I can’t go back who can explain it to me why I can’t go back to Palestine they tell me it’s okay finally you’re not going to add more to us so what? we never hear the
Palestinians it’s we never hear them it’s not as if we were every morning on the sets reminding or complaining about our fate and moreover we only remind ourselves of our rights so that’s it to conclude. It’s a terrain that is complicated, it’s a terrain where you have to be, you
Also have to situate yourself in the country in which you are, that is to say, as I said earlier, we are not talking about Palestine in France as we talk about Palestine in another country we must really situate the social political context which means that because talking in fact that is it is
It is finally that’s all the world can do it you have to speak well you have to speak in an impactful way you have to say to yourself ok I I I am speaking to people I am speaking to people
Who are educated I am speaking to people who are not educated I am addressing public opinion who perhaps has not heard of the Palestinian question for 10 15 20 years who does not have the keys to understanding so in fact we must also situate our words in this necessary
Pedagogy not only in all the time in a dynamic which can be militant or expert by that you see you said there we have brought the expertise me there are moments when when I say
In the name of what I cannot not going into my home in Palestine is more impactful than talking about United Nations resolutions you see and so there are times you also have to place your
Words in a context that you also have to analyze so there you go I for the moment I will let go nothing on the question of media treatment I would still like to talk about that of the politicians of the little policy which dares to contradict this here is this this
Dominant discourse on the Palestinian question but I would also like to question their strategy because sometimes it is not it’s often it’s not readable even if we agree on the substance we say to ourselves ah well the rebels they say good things
But why did they do it like that and not like that I would like you to decipher us a bit of a rebellious kitchen on this issue the rebellious kitchen at the moment it’s full of broken display cases uh dishes dishes on the floor because we’re arguing among ourselves in fact uh but
It’s normal it’s it’s the democratic debate, including in our country, we do not all agree on the way to approach the thing, I am when you know when you were saying is it important to go on these sets, good me I’ve been going there for 7 or 8 years now, I
Learned that you have to leave your heart at the entrance, eh, before trying to sit down, you can leave your heart because there’s no pity there uh but the last time I went to a demonstration for example in Paris because before I had demonstrated in Lille I
Met some citizens that marked me because it affects me too and I don’t say that for me but but you know people sometimes they say thank you we say thank you then there are the thanks that come
From there it comes out like that and and people who are very moved in fact who were only moved for one time someone says to themselves that the opinion their own opinion is the one they have had for 10 years 15 years 20 years they come from an institutionally established party and then
I say to myself shit because there I have more the right to make mistakes what does that mean also because I don’t experience that and and I show empathy but but but I I I don’t experience that I don’t have this lump
In my stomach this lump in my throat for 25 years on Palestine I am a child of the 2001 generation so when I was 10 years old in the West in France in Europe we see the twin towers collapsing we see the discourse of the clash of civilizations which is coming we
Refuse it because I actually refused it quite quickly but there was not this research because I was not the culprit in the public discourse and there you are there you know that you have no right to it ‘error and you are obliged to always consult your friends in fact always consult
Your loved ones you are always obliged to consult those who know that’s what is important I think in the function of speaking but when you manage to do it with a little accuracy you release something in people who are moved I saw people crying and so on
I was it’s the first time for me someone that people say thank you to me with this this emotion there and that’s why I will continue to go there, what are you being criticized for? I mean what you are saying is common sense, I mean anyone who listens and says, here is this
Politician calling for stop the fire he calls for a solution and so on what is your reproach reproach we are reproached for saying that the life of an Arab counts as much as the life of another we are fundamentally reproached for that because when you when you when you let others
Speak precisely when you are not there and well you have the speeches I saw something all the same from the speech of this lady I think her name was Céline pin who then says when a baby when a Palestinian child is killed no when an Israeli child is killed by Hamas it’s all
Humanity that betrayed him he sees it on the other hand a Palestinian child killed by an Israeli bomb it’s okay it’s OK and and in fact that’s the bottom line of the thing is that in my country in my country
Also it’s not that in Palestine in my country we dehumanized the Arabs we dehumanized the Muslims we also dehumanized the Jews eh I mean a while ago it takes the extreme right she is very happy with the Israeli state for a simple reason anti-Semitism he was born
In Europe he was not born in Arab countries it was Europe which invented the idea that there would be a Jewish problem she invented the idea that there was a Jewish problem because for decades and hundreds of years it forbade Jews from doing anything other than trading and making
Money because for Christians it was dirty so it was the Jews who did it and it was she who invented this problem and who said to herself at one point there is a Jewish problem in Arab countries there was no Jewish problem in Tunisia there is
No Jewish problem for us in Europe and that is why the problem which was born in Europe must also be concluded in Europe in part for my part it is there is a very strong to lead this battle here particularly in France and well to the extreme right she said but since
There is a problem I besides that’s the Balfour and company declaration eh I mean when it when the English make this statement they continue to say that the Jews are vermin so we just have to give the problem to the Arabs we just have to give the problem
To the Palestinians then they saw it’s true I have Bassem Youssef gave a super clear demonstration of all that in his last interview with Pierce Morgan it’s really I think it’s really a masterpiece but uh but uh me I remember that in class
Including I had studied when when we studied history there was a story of putting the Jews in a corner in Russia or in Uganda and then it fell on Palestine what so it is the it is we said to the Palestinians take our own Jewish problem and that’s what
Saddens me a lot in the French debate is that uh I grew up in Lila which is a town where there were French people Muslims and French Jews who were spharad and hashkenas there were the two uh notably the French Sephardic Jews they lived in the same quarter
As the French Jewish Muslims as the French Muslims and and what is terrible is that they have so many things in common they have a history of oppression in common they have a history of discrimination in common they have cultures in common ways of talking
About and and and and it’s it’s it’s it’s the leaders it’s are the political leaders who confront French Jews and French Muslims between themselves who each time blame us for the problem and I find that sad because it’s true that afterward there are people
Who take back on their own account it exists he who takes up anti-Semitic theories and so on but but but but this way of saying it’s the fault of the Muslims it’s me I I it’s not what I experienced in fact that’s not what I saw, I haven’t witnessed that
In my life, I’ve witnessed very French anti-Semitism, the one who sent the Jews on the trains to the death camps, that’s what I know I witnessed and the anti-Semitic mechanisms are very anchored in Europe it is not the Arabs who developed them and so we try to fight
Against that and and this way of doing a little justice and and and giving back the memory to the people it I think this is the heart of the battle for us, particularly in France, which does not in fact take responsibility for
Its history, which does not take responsibility for Marshal Pétin, who does not take responsibility so much that now you have loves who tell us that Pétin saved Jews and cetera it’s it’s they don’t assume that
And and and and everything that happens in Palestine it sends them back it’s like you said it’s the shit of battles because it refers to all these to all these questions to all these unconscious to all these colonial unconscious which are still ingrained in the heads and and once again that
The idea that the Palestinians do not in fact count or count little, that is to say we will bring them from time to time in time we will talk about it and then once the news is over
Come on, let’s close, close the lid and move on to something else and and and and I’ve seen that how many times, the thing that shocked me the most, I’ll tell you in the debate, really was when
They cut off the electricity in Gaza the first evening when it cut everything and I remember we had slept badly all of us were talking we had slept really badly because it was the first evening we had not the images we knew that something was happening we knew that there
Was carnage but this time we didn’t have the images because there was no more internet and we were struggling so we spent the whole night try to find the images of the journalists and I wake up in the morning tired and before going to the Assembly I watch BFM and there the report
Was uh a reporter who was at hhkellon so Israel and the subject of the report it started like That was tonight, the Israelis slept well because there were fewer Hamas bombs and that hurt me to think that in my country we had reached that point and so I, I, well,
I I experienced it as a duty in fact to go there and say but wait oh wake up what this is and it was it was a bit the heart of this battle to manage to redirect also part of empathy all the same towards the Palestinians who are undergoing
Ethnic cleansing I would still like to follow up on what you said about the way in which we oppose the Jewish and Muslim communities in France, it’s true that it’s true that we also have this experience in Algeria I was born in Algeria in the
Tunisian borders and in Algeria we had the Crémieux decree which uh fractured uh the Algerian nation the Algerian society which separated the Jews and the Muslims and uh when they left uh the colonists uh in 62 they took the Jews with them they left with them
And today we are witnessing uh this still today this transfer of historical responsibility quite incredible with these theories of the new anti-Semitism of this anti-Semitism of the suburbs of no one would say couscous anti-Semitism uh and that hurts me a lot
Because I see us moving away in fact from our Jewish cousins with whom we have much more to share I have much more personally to share with a Jewish cousin from Gerba or Constantine than with anyone and even if I love them a lot of my
Parisian activist friends in reality culturally uh uh and even politically sometimes and it’s true that we see each other we are each on one side of the bank and we are each caught up in our emotions in our in our in our in our communities and we see ourselves moving away without sometimes
Being able to do anything about it and I would also like to say that you I was talking about this confiscation of empathy, it’s true that in fact we have it if we want too and sometimes also to be self
-critical because I have a lot of Jewish friends there who are activists who are anti-racist activists who are anti-colonial activists who participated with us in lots of battles and who sometimes when they did not have the expected reaction on October 7, that is to say ultra
Radical immediately to react politically to have the right words to be at the height et cetera were sometimes treated by some of ours directly as sold-out Zionists and that while these are people with whom we shared these struggles and I would still like to say
That I mean if we don’t is not able to put himself in the place of others and not understand in fact that he has this emotion at this given moment on October 7th you have to be crazy to understand
That to not understand that in fact as a Jew on the 7th October we can feel completely overwhelmed like us as Muslims who are not Palestinian in fact we we we are we are we are overwhelmed by this emotion because the Palestinians live that does not mean that we put an
Equality between what is happening, it doesn’t mean that what Israelis are experiencing is the same as what Palestinians are experiencing, it’s not true, but it means that we must also be in the capacity for this empathy we must also be able to put ourselves in the place of the other
And if we here I speak in France but also in Tunisia in here in Europe and and in the Maghreb countries if we do not arrive in fact to discuss to dialogue with the Jews who are closest to us culturally and politically how do we want
People to live in the Middle East tomorrow after that, that is to say, who live together because we will have to find a solution will have to be that people live together I mean we’re not going to throw people over the sea when Rimal we were discussing it earlier from the river
To the sea that doesn’t mean that all Jews must free themselves in fact that means that Palestine must be freed from all forms of oppression and colonization and that people must live equally and must live with total freedom but they must live together so
I want tell us we have we live with this pain also from the way in which we are opposed and the way we make a fight a religious fight and a fight between communities and during that time well the Westerners are rubbing their hands I would like also suddenly ask you the question
Rima he started to approach it a little David it’s true that in France when we talk about the Palestinian we Arabs also particularly listen because it is also about reality of us in France it is also in reality our fate and we have seen in recent years all
The processes today and all the laws which have been passed the separatism law the different exceptional justice measures which have been used in particular to dissolve associations for the defense of Muslim rights like the CCIF today they are used
To dissolve associations for the defense of Palestinians and what is the line what is the link in fact between precisely the question the question of of the treatment of Palestine and the treatment in fact of Arabs and immigration from former colonies in France
, that’s what I was saying earlier, that in fact the Palestinian question is the Palestinian question . is part of it is one of the last subjects of colonization to be dealt with also the Palestinian resistance but which in fact fits where
It is interesting this subject is that it catalyzes as I said it is that it is the State of Israel is the only State in the world to have been created by the international community so it commits everyone it commits all states in a certain way even if the international community
In 45 good c is the colonial empires but so today we in any case see an international mobilization around the resolutions which are voted on the subject so in fact it really concerns everyone and today we are in an international community where
The majority of States have liberated themselves several years ago from this logic of domination and therefore we have the feeling that there is a world which is divided in two in fact even if public opinion still tends more and more in favor of the Palestinian people
We have seen it even in the United States in the West finally there is a massive demobilization but I am speaking in terms of state policy we still have a world which is a little split in two and
There is support for Israel as we see it is mainly from former countries which themselves colonized and we have support for Palestine even if caricature but in fact when we look it is it is it That’s all the same and they are countries from the Global South who understand what
This oppression is, who understand what it is to resist for decades to achieve self-determination et cetera and so the situation of Arabs in France the support that can be expressed or shown to the Palestinians is part of what I said earlier
Which is a mirror effect, that is to say that there are many people from the immigration to France who have inherited this oppression who have inherited this relationship of domination who have inherited from these humiliations and when they see the Palestinian they actually see themselves in
A certain way and what I was saying earlier is that indeed today a Palestinian who is humiliated is it’s whole peoples who are humiliated by this mirror effect all these peoples who have freed themselves from this oppression of this colonization when
He still sees a colonized subject being oppressed being humiliated there is a mirror effect because it ‘is these stories, ours, yours, they are recent, they are not stories, they are recent, these stories of decolonial and independence struggles are recent, they are human memory, me, my grandfather who fought in the Algerian war
Who was sentenced to death he is still alive there are people in your respective families who can still testify to it so if you actually tell yourself the sensitivity of this memory and how it comes from ‘interweaving with memory and the Palestinian question
Just a word on the question of anti-Semitism it’s an extremely complicated subject for the Palestinians I’m going to tell you something because I have both hats now I come from a very Palestinian background which is that of the camps in Syria and
I grew up in France and in fact what is quite interesting is that for the Palestinians the Israelis are a people like another in fact they don’t have the history, that’s what the West doesn’t understand, that in this region we don’t have the history of
Anti-Semitism, we don’t have this memory, unlike France, we have this history, we persecuted the Jews, we wanted to exterminate them, so of course this memory must be maintained, it must never be forgotten, it must be told, it must be present
In the school manual, everyone must be aware of what is happening. happened in France what France collaborated on for more to prevent it from happening again so the question of anti-Semitism is very present and the subject which must be dealt with which is
Still not sufficiently dealt with Besides, but for the Palestinians in this region, it was Moncholet who said it in an interview she did with Mdiapart, she said, but Israel does not understand that in this region it is a state. like anyone else we will treat it no
Differently for us it is a state which colonizes in fact and what we said we talked about it this morning but there is a column by Henry Loren who is a professor at the Collège de France who said but the problem in fact is it’s me I repeat it also it’s not what
The Israelis are it’s what they do and Henry Lores said that good if the Palestinians had been colonized by the Eskimos they would be anti-Eskimos it is not the fact that the Israelis in this case they are of Jewish faith or who claim this or that faith
Therefore and what the West does not understand is that in this region there we don’t have this passive we don’t have this memory of the Choa we don’t have this this this this trauma in fact uh which necessitated uh B
Which which actually also disturbs relationships in society because effectively when we have done so much victims when we have persecuted a community so much I mean we are indebted to history France is indebted to history but what is terrible for us
Palestinians is that we find ourselves dealing with a question which is fundamental which is that of anti-Semitism which is fundamental but without having contributed to this anti-Semitism without having participated in this anti-Semitism and what is quite crazy is that we find ourselves
Today, Palestinians, we find ourselves in situations we have to justify not being anti-Semitic when all we say is that we are victims of colonization and occupation, it’s not our subject in fact fundamentally it is not our subject I know that
It can be inaudible for people who may be of Jewish faith and who claim from Israel but we must understand where the Palestinian subject comes from also the Palestinian subject before the creation of the State of Israel he erases the British Empire he leads
A great revolt the Arab revolt of the 30s he there is 10% of the Palestinian community which is either imprisoned or persecuted or killed and we find ourselves just afterwards with an adoption of the United Nations resolutions which absolutely do not include a whole bunch of countries which
Do not include the Palestinians we are creating an Israeli state without consulting the Palestinians which Israeli state which we are going to accelerate which we are going to accelerate the creation Israeli state which we are going to accelerate
The creation because of or in response to this anti-Semitism and we say to the Palestinians deal with that but it is totally irresponsible on the part of the European States it is totally irresponsible this subject there must also be treated and in part by the States which
We which have which have been nevertheless finally which have participated which have thought about the anti-Semitism which thought about the choice who thought about this level of persecution against the Jewish people and what happened was that we totally abandoned the Palestinian people with a question that was
European, mostly European, of course afterwards we must not make it invisible, there were also in the creation of the State of Israel Arab States which positioned themselves with persecution against their Jewish community and that must not be the case. forget also when there
Was the creation of the State of Israel there were a lot of Jews we were targeted eh also we asked them to leave we asked them to choose a side we asked them to be either loyal to their country or to be or to be Israeli finally there was but what
I mean is that you just have to understand that it’s a question that is very important just to understand that we Palestinians do not have this history of choice that Palestine has always been an inclusive and multi-faith land, my grandparents told me that it
Was a question that was not asked whether their neighbors were Jewish Christians or not it’s it’s it’s land in fact in this very region in Lebanon you go from a mosque to a church unfortunately the synagogues are much less uh I I
Regret it they are a lot least they were not maintained at all he I in Syria for example and so on where the Jewish community was also either pushed to abandon or was expelled or left these are also places finally here we actually lost something in term of coexistence that
Is very damaging a part of ourselves of course but what I mean is that at this time it is necessary to understand that this people, the Palestinian people, found themselves to manage the creation of an Israeli state which was made in response to anti-Semitism anti-Semitism
Which is not in Palestinian memory which is absolutely not in Palestinian memory and not in the memory in fact of these countries and so it’s it’s inaudible in fact what I just mean by that is that it’s even more complicated for me as a Palestinian
In France to talk about the Palestinians because we systematically refer this question of anti-Semitism uh there is uh it’s very complicated either I’m accused of being anti-Semitic or they’re going to tell me that in the Palestinian demands they are in fact anti-Semitic but
That’s not our subject in fact we don’t have this memory there we have the Palestinians don’t have this memory – there they express themselves first as Palestinians first as a colonized people and and it’s very touching because indeed in the sensitivities that there may be in the
Jewish community in pro-Israeli ways well there is this fear of never actually being secure as a Jewish people in a land where we aspire to be safe and at peace and if you want me, I am aware of the times that my Palestinian words give voice to the
Israelis or Prisraeli voices that are not legitimate only because of what has been done and so it is it is an infinite circle but I just want to say that this word cannot be it is never in fact anti it is not anti-Semitic this Palestinian word
Is it is a truly political word from a colonized subject of an occupied subject and which expresses its condition but it is extremely touching in fact what has been infused in France also I find that
There is really I end on this but because I endure all this it is very hard for me because I do not have this memory of anti-Semite anti-Semitism from where I come from on the contrary I have testimonies from my family who tell us we didn’t ask the question of who is
Jewish and who is Christian it was a non-subject and Palestine has always been an inclusive land and I find myself in a country in a region in Europe where hatred of Jews is omnipresent and omnipresent and today we link this hatred to the Palestinian question because
Also the Palestinian question is taken up from all sides. I find myself trapped in a whole pile in fact of speeches which are used either to hate the Jews or to hate the Muslims
And so on and so on but it was just to reiterate the complicity that it is also to have a Palestinian voice in France and I mean that some of our politicians are totally irresponsible for not addressing this issue in any case for claiming to fight against
Anti-Semitism and at the same time for continuing to support political groups that promote hatred I am thinking of Meille Habib who claims to fight against anti-Semitism and who made a tweet a few days ago to say I welcome the presence of the national gathering at the march against anti-Semitism, well I mean it’s
It’s it’s it’s a total irresponsibility and so here we also find ourselves as a paissenne path sorry but to manage to manage this question question of anti-Semitism but and it’s extremely complicated because once again we don’t have that memory so thank you
Very much then what we’re going to do since we’ve still made quite a bit of progress what we’re going to do is we’re going to do 5 minutes of conclusion uh and then we’re going to move on to the questions uh if you have questions and then you will have a
Drink uh since we are in an art center I will still prepare a few little cultural references because I still have to be up to the task uh just me I believe in in any case I learned from my position as a
Revolutionary left activist we sometimes have the impression you know when the world collapses that when when death rains that it is over and that and that it is screwed up and and I also say it for the people
Who listen to us, the young people who may be led to say to themselves the situation is depressing that when we are in these situations, particularly on the Palestinian question, optimism is not just a state of mind optimism is a moral duty because the only battles
That are lost are those that we don’t fight you are sure to lose if you don’t lead the battle that doesn’t mean that you will win if you lead it but on the other hand you are sure to fail
If you don’t follow it when he was in prison there is a revolutionary activist Antonio Gramchi who had a phrase which was interesting which said I am a pessimist of intelligence but optimistic by will, that is to say that it is true that when we analyze the balance of power
Present, anti-colonial activists often say to themselves if we look at the material elements they are more armed than us they are stronger than we are more helped than us they have more money and yet the history of humanity allows me to say that
I have a disagreement with you but that’s just to show off it’s that in fact these fights are not recent in my country the French revolutionaries had a motto it was freedom or death these ideas which come from the depths of time which are great ideas those of
The freedom of the people they hatched in Europe with the enlightenment but before they happened there was avos it happened in Italy the Greeks all over the world these ideas germinated and these ideas they are transported from generation to generation from century to century
Because there are people to carry them with them an idea is not transmitted alone an idea is transmitted because you say it because you write it because you sing it because you paint it but these ideas are not transmitted alone so
Me the history of my country it is that at one point there are people who say freedom or death and then after Thomas Sankara for example he says the same thing the Fatherland or death and then after
Faithful Castro who manages to release the American imperialism of Cuba he says nothing else he says Pat these ideas have circulated so much that in my opinion they arrived in the heart of a Palestinian poet called Ibrahim all that not even a day ago my
French-Algerian friend made me listen to it again which became the anthem of Iraq in 2004 when they brought down Saddam Hussein and which was why I thought about it which was sung a few weeks ago in my country that the idea made the rounds in Lille
In a gathering it is a poem which says my homeland my homeland the youth will never give up it will go to the end until death for your independence for your independence we we will drink of death but we will never be like slaves to our enemies the name of this poem is
Maoutini my homeland maoutini I don’t pronounce it very [Applause] well you see the idea circulates it exists and in the depths of darkness it Just enough, as someone else would say, a spark to set the plain on fire, there you go, Abandon the tyrants and long live the freedom of the
People, but here it’s super hard [Laughs] for me I’m going to conclude on a political perspective so I I’m going to bore you but it’s important for me what makes me hope today is to bury solutions which are no longer a solution in any case which is no
Longer one which is that of both states so I ask you to stop lying to us I ask you to stop lying to us about this on this perspective I ask you to stop bringing it there I agree that I am not a representative of the
Palestinian people but two words on that what remains of the Palestinian territories are crumbs there are more than 800,000 settlers in the Palestinian territories if we project a Palestinian state on the territories that remain it is Gaza bis we will do the same again scenario that Gaza and I
Am convinced that in a few years we will meet here to discuss what Israel is doing to an enclave which would be in the Jordan where the Palestinians will be asked either to go to Jordan or they will be locked up in a circle within a few walls and we
Will be bombarding them to definitively put an end to the Palestinians. This solution is no longer one because it does not allow all the Palestinians to come together in a territory and to think about their destiny which is theirs since I,
As a Paisian refugee, am not included in this solution. I would still not have the right to return if we create this state as it is thought of today. It also does not allow the connection between the Palestinians of Gaza or other territories with the Palestinians of
Sis Jordan thank you and I had the opportunity to thank him earlier but I would like to tell Hassan that I find her formidable and that she is a strength and that I see in her a a true leader you are magnificent you are full of courage I don’t know I
You are right we all the time tend to I don’t know when the Palestinians appear on the sets we tend to see them as Miserables you are not at all miserable not at all pitiful I find you strong beautiful magnificent magnificent
Finally frankly uh you have everything going for you and keep going and uh I think there was an American star who had his name on a missile and well that’s it so I divert the message I have a question I don’t know if it’s a question or a remark 2
Weeks ago after there were the attacks finally the beginning of the war beginning in quotes uh I have more the memory of the dates but I believe that after a week after October 7 netaniaahou three families or four Franco-Israeli families filed complaints
To the International Court netaniaou filed a complaint against the people finally against Hamas because that he accuses them of killing Israeli civilians why there is no Palestinian voice you are Franco-French-Palestinian why uh Franco-Palestinians or uh pro-Palestinian people we are going to say why are they don’t take
Legal action ah well so I did it yesterday it’s a little late anyway no good thank you quickly because there are lots of questions I just want to remind you that Israel is already the subject of an investigation to the International Criminal Court which has already been opened in 2021 but indeed
It is also linked to Gaza but it is not linked to the events since it predates so specify that Israel is still already well under surveillance from some here are also the International Court of Justice which must give an opinion on the legal consequences of
Colonization and the Occupation and the International Criminal Court which has been searching since 2021 and there currently there are indeed several lawyers who have seized of this question to collect testimonies from Franco-Palestinians who have been victims of two Israeli abuses or whose families have been victims of Israeli abuses and who will
Also file a complaint before the Criminal Court and there are even several firms in fact he I know several who have taken a position on the subject so business to follow there VO Jene thank you to everyone thank you very much to all of you for your interventions
I have several questions I will try to be quick I I’m trying to remember the few words you said at the beginning you came here to try to whitewash the image France was something like that a better image there but I think that
Now in the Global South there are two notions which are rising which are a little idealistic but I find that it is worth mentioning there are two notions the severing of the links between the South and the north and the accumulation or accumulation of rage and grudges
And I think that these two notions which are growing go against the efforts of the North to want to beautify its image or try to embellish its image which is a little late now and my question is are there politicians
Who are aware of this threat of rupture with the south and who are trying to pragmatism not out of conviction but out of simple pragmatism which tries to thwart it uh uh second question what do we know about the bill for the criminalization of anti-Zionism
Because if it passes it risks making people pay very very very dearly the Muslims the Arabs the French of Muslim or Arab origin and so on had another question in relation to the cessation of fire
I think that there are finally voices who say it half-heartedly but there are there are there say it half-heartedly because because we are a little ashamed to say it but if we push for a ceasefire if that happens there will be more armed resistance and I have the impression that now the
Armed resistance it’s a bit the only resistance that could really recover recover the land and if the fire stops there will be more Hames or whatever the resistance that now exists in Palestine does this question arise or is there any reflection around
Of this of this question how can we continue the armed resistance on site in Palestine on the lands occupied if we have a ceasefire and last question last question yes it’s it’s cruel to say it like that I know it’s that’s why I said that we are a little
Ashamed of people who think a little like that and the last question is in relation to the Palestinian question because as you said it is very structuring. is structuring at the level of convictions but it is a little divisive at the level of political action.
I see it at the level of the circles in which I operate which are fundamentally feminist leather and a little separatist the uh Palestinian question when when we the pose especially when it comes to standardization there are positions which can be extremist
And not pragmatic enough and which mean that we cannot organize ourselves around the same objective to achieve political actions to support Palestine whether it is demanding things or asking our governments to do things whether it is because there are people who say they are uh Palestinians finally the
Artists who go Palestine well it’s normalization and it goes in all directions and it’s very very controversial it’s very divisive for me I also see it here in Tunisia do you have any recommendations from the councils so that this is structuring not only at the
Level of convictions but also at the level of the organization of political action thank you I thank you for your question for your questions and your and your question which will allow me to readjust my remarks you are right c ‘at the same time it’s it’s funny because it’s it’s it’s
Usually I’m rather accused of being anti-rance uh and uh so so uh that’s it’s you’re right the nuance it is important uh there is a real there is a real ralbol there is a real uh there is a real risk of total rupture we see everywhere France is being extricated in the
Sahel in the Arab countries finally I mean there is complete fall of French diplomacy and that’s not from today’s political choices eh it’s I mean we as a native of Algeria we know we know Ille’s past I’m in Currently in the
Process of making a film on the Algerian war on the story of my grandfather who was a mjahad who was sentenced to death by France by guillotine because he wanted freedom for his country which was also defended by Giselle Alimi, a Franco-Tunisian lawyer who
Obtained the commutation of her sentence to forced labor for life and who allows me to be here today speaking to you obviously it is does not act at all to whitewash the action
Of France to justify it with the watering down of the Brown Wé or I know nothing but it is a question of saying that and it is a reality that the majority of people in reality in France today do
Not agree with the speeches made by Bron pivated by Emmanuel Macron and the television sets in France are not representative of the state of mind in reality of French men and women and each and every one of whom also has in this large part of the of
This population which comes from the former colonies which knows and which has the experience of the question of colonization so I would not want precisely having the impression of watering down that but simply also restoring a form of reality and truth which is that of our voice, however
Underrepresented it may be, to have the opportunity here to say it in Tunis that we are together I ‘love to see you in this situation it’s the question that stings in fact it’s the question that stings me as an activist I look at things as they are
Happening the what we call the North the American hyperpower is in the process of losing some of its assets for the first time in I believe more recent history China, Brazil, Russia but also Saudi Arabia have sat around the table to discuss a
Thing are we starting to make an alternative currency to the dollar this question is at the center of the balances of the world because the United States of a Monna no material counterpart it is the basis of their power the basis it it’s not just that there is military power
Too but here we touch on something concrete whatever it is we often say that we have often buried the United States well they are still very present but in any case we are moving towards a world which is perhaps more multipolar and which therefore also becomes more unstable
So the Palestinians will tell me that it is unstable and has been unstable for a long time but for the great balances which were found the question which arises today is that of the generalized war moreover in Palestine it is one of the subjects it is
The conflagration afterwards and the games of alliances I say it because we in Europe the last time we experienced what we call multipolar, that is to say different powers at approximately the same level, it gave rise to the First World War, it is not necessarily a guarantee of stability, all that
And therefore me as a political activist in my training Jean-Luc Mélenchon sees this happening and we say to ourselves how we prevent how we avoid the logic of blocs and generalized war and what we rely on what we rely on in this that we can do, that is to say our country, we
Have identified the French-speaking world of course with one condition: the contract must be common because that is the essence of the question I imagine so far in fact it is France which dictates for the others and then march or die so the basic condition is that it
Is a contract accepted by the others that is what on which we could rely on having a force which is not aligned with the logic of the bloc which is not aligned behind the United States of America, an aggressive declining power which causes trouble almost everywhere
It goes, in particular it is she who is behind what is happening in Palestine he today eh 14 billion euros to release there 14 billion euros to wage war we France so I think we have we have released a few hundred million euros eh, we also have
Responsibility but we are small players next to it but also other powers which are arriving which are not necessarily powers which have every interest in peace although they are less aggressive like China so that are we trying to convince the world to move towards non-alignment, that’s our question that we ask ourselves as
French revolutionary activists, once again it’s to convince him because in any case we no longer has many means of imposing France has been taken out of a large part of sub-Saharan Africa Mali and so on we have been taken out we are dismantling our embassy networks we are in difficulty with our
Positions our networks which which still exist internationally and then in addition it is us who cut the links I mean we had links when I talk about the Francophonie we still made a law that was the best welcome to the university it was called we increased we multiplied
By 10 the registration fees for students who were not European understand the students from Africa eh we multiplied them by 10 why because we said B in fact we are going to take on rich Americans, rich Japanese and so on, so in fact we ourselves said to ourselves,
They have nothing more to teach us, well here I am, I think the logic is the opposite, I think that in truth we have a lot to learn we have a position of humility to find vis-à-vis countries which in addition are countries which have things to offer us which have things when a
Student who is Tunisian Moroccan Algerian comes to France he does research he brings us things it’s not just us who welcome him, come on we’ll allow you to write a dissertation no, we gain from these exchanges and I don’t understand why we even cut these links but
It’s the choice of a country which unfortunately, fortunately, can no longer find itself because given that it has aligned behind the States well after come we say we have to follow the Yankey and then we find ourselves
In the same situation that it’s up to us now where we are in a make or die situation it’s a bit sad I hope just that France will be non-aligned and then we try to convince the partners without despising them for once it will be a good start I
Think so I will do it quickly I think there are lots of questions yeah but I will really do quickly that’s the question it was on the tools for normalization finally on the question there was the armed struggle that’s
It there were two questions but on the normalization and how to deal with it yeah yeah for oh there uh so on the CC yeah but on the ccfeu quickly in fact I don’t think it was necessary to ask the question like that you have to understand that it is always the
Colonizer who sets the degree of violence of a struggle that is to say that it is Israel which set the level of violence and and the colonization is always in response to an oppression as atrocious
As it is in Algeria we planted bombs in cafes that’s it was atrocious and the CDES carry out with the PKK carry out activities that we consider to be terrorist, well I mean that’s it, that does
N’t stop us from saying the atrocity of the facts but what I mean by that is that the debate I think that it should not be posed like that the debate must be posed in what balance of power Israel imposes on the Palestinians what perspective gives them to lead their struggle
Other than through armed struggle because they have tried and I want to say a word about that, eh, it’s been documented, I relayed it a lot to denounce the hypocrisy, the cynicism of Israel, we have statements from Benyamin Netanahou and Smotrich who say who
Said there a few years ago Israel uh no who said Hamas is an asset uh and the Palestinian Authority is a burden because the Palestinian Authority by bringing the Palestinian question through the peaceful route which is still the approach f a secular party moreover eh
The fatarin he took he did not have this claim at all and the religious prism he said that precisely the the the Palestinian Authority the risk with the paitian authority which brought the question with diplomacy international cooperation and in a peaceful way c was
That precisely this authority had legitimacy it could be heard and therefore it was a burden for Israel and that it was precisely necessary to sow discord and it was Netanyahu himself who said in this was republished by the M AR which is an Israeli media which said we
Have every interest in financing Hamas this is part of our strategy to precisely divide and roughly divide the representatives of the Palestinians so that we effectively bury the creation of a state Palestinian, that’s important to say because we
Also have to ask ourselves the question of who fed the monster so much, there’s not a cent that comes into Gaza without Israel checking it, not a cent that’s the reality, he suitcases of money that come from Qatar they don’t fall from the sky they go through Israeli controls well
No but when we no but no but when we say when today we denounce the atrocities we have to know who fed who fed no but wait Hamas wait you have to no but we must let the Palestinians speak Hamas does not represent the Palestinians it does not represent
All the Palestinians Hamas its presence is explained its legitimacy is explained historically politically it was elected but the Hamas no but when it’s an expression ma’am when we say it’s an expression when we say who fed the monster it’s who fed the one who we accuse
Today of being a monster but who nourished who gave him the ability to arm himself who gave him gave him precisely his time of Hamas it is not a Palestinian movement it is a movement of the Muslim Brotherhood initially so we have to resituate things politically it has been there for a
Very short time history no but there is plenty of resistance ma’am it has Islamic Jihad today you have around ten armed groups Hamas is the most powerful but you have around ten it would be wrong to say that Islamic Dihad represents the Palestinians is it
True or not yes it is not because today Hamas has more weapons than the others it represents the Palestinians today Hamas has more but it was elected in Gaza it is 2 million out of a people which represents 15 million in total Palestinians are 15 million no but wait
Never claim to represent the Palestinians I’m not here to tell you that I’m right about everything you can no but you can think that Hamas is a voice you can think that it’s is a future for everyone to continue killing each other I
Don’t think that and I know it’s complicated to hear I know it’s complicated there are people here who perhaps want us to end that we have to destroy Israel listen I
‘m going to give you it’s not a scoop I’m going to give you a scoop that’s it it’s not he Israel we have we we won’t destroy Israel we have to get out of this fantasy we have to get out of this [Music]
Fantasy but we are not saying that Hamas wants that we are simply telling you the fact that Hamas is calling for the destruction of Israel not true no already you are interested no but wait it is important for me because That’s typically also what being a Palestinian way means
Opening up to managing people who are allies but who here are reproaching us for making comments that we want to make when I say who fed the monster it’s which in fact nourished the structure today the organization of Hamas which is blamed for committing all
The atrocities that it commits and which we blame and which we qualify as a monster when I say that I am in the process of denounce Israeli cynicism no but wait ma’am finally here finally at a given moment we have to stop what so good the bill but it’s it’s here typically
There we have a very simple scenario which is that even in territory we are supposed to be in spaces where we have allies or allies we also find ourselves as Palestinians having to justify all the time all the time all the time the slightest thing we can say because in fact
This cause I’m sorry I know it touches your heart but it’s not yours thank you because if that’s it if that’s it go take up arms and go die in combat there it’s my people who Die there it is my people who Die it is not you good evening yes I answer on
The on the a real political meeting it is still a political meeting we argue otherwise no on the on the bill because it ‘it’s one of the big subjects but in fact for the moment they tried a few years ago to do it already they passed what we
Call a motion for a resolution which has no real value legal but we have already had this debate in France on the criminalization of anti-Zionism and we the problem that we immediately raised but what do you mean by anti-Zionism already they are incapable of
Telling us if anti-Zionism is it opposition to the establishment of the State of Israel? Is it opposition to the extension of territories and colonization or is it moreover how is it? ‘he could qualify Rima’s proposal which is that of a unique state they are not
Able to tell us and so today it is still difficult to pass their thing because they cannot completely define in do themselves what they want to prohibit but on the other hand what is certain is that they want to extinguish all criticism of Israel, that’s it
Who it is it’s it it’s it it’s the the fact in France which is the most eye-popping fact and what’s more eye-popping for all of us is that they’re trying to extinguish any criticism of Israel and in their main unfortunately it is the instrumentalization of the question of
Anti-Semitism that’s what is terrible is that in fact they themselves are making that of the anti-Semitism an object of geopolitical debate and so on while we would just like to show our solidarity when a Jewish Frenchman is attacked because he is Jewish and that’s it
But they send that back to us, they give credence to the discourse elsewhere of the Israeli officials the last time they came to France after the hypercacher attacks they came to France in our country to tell all the Jews of France come to us in
Israel, that is to say no longer be Jews. French citizens be citizens of our country and in fact it’s me I can understand the feeling because of that of loneliness that the French Jews can experience because they sometimes live between the construction of an anti-Semitism in
The European and the instrumentalization who who they don’t necessarily want me just before coming I was I was with a friend who is who is who is French Jewish hhkenaz they don’t even want to return to Israel it’s been 10 years who who doesn’t return who she told me my husband tells me
As long as it will be people from the extreme right and CEA I will not return to this country it also exists in France but what is certain is that they will try to do that and that’s why, including
People like me, they will tell me that I am a spokesperson for Hamas, it’s elements that are circulating among them that I will take my instructions uh from teran of I don’t know where while I have never met these people I don’t even know who they are and it’s it’s it’s
Elements of language which go around in a loop like that and the problem is that you know in France there is a proverb it is uh to repeat uh moreover I believe that it was the Nazi propaganda which said at the time to slander slander slander there will always be something left
So it is clear that in fact when in the French media H24 you have that there is something left and and and that is what they are trying to do in particular on Jean-Luc Mélenchon because there is me but there is the figure above who is who is clearly who is Jean -Luc
Mélenchon on whom they are trying to put the mark of infamy to disqualify him forever from any political discourse and any geopolitical discourse but hey we resist that as best we can good evening good evening good evening uh the other morning I took a taxi to go to bardau the driver
Sees my Palestinian flag the map of Palestine that I have around my neck he says to me you know the difference between Arab soldiers and Jewish soldiers they are afraid of death we are not afraid of death and he goes on to tell us the amazir we are going to liberate Gaza
I said listen in the meantime we are going to the bardau it is obvious that Palestine and it is not yesterday always raises emotions on all sides well uh and that the powers in place or the people who aspire to power manipulate their emotions young Jonathan a young Jewish
Son of a butcher and Rabin of Tunis who was killed in the hyper kosher his dad wanted to bury him also Jewish from Gerba you speak the Zionists kidnapped the corpse and buried it on Mount HERZ and Madame Ségolen Royale went to this ceremony to declare that the Jews
All had their place in France but she declared that in Israel and I believe that they have kidnapped the other three corpses were two Algerian Jews a Tunisian Jew the 4th I don’t know well I wanted first to respond to the sister comrade who has to leave who asked a question about the
ICC there was a first complaint filed after the 2008 Gaza attack at the ICC there was supposed to be a vote at the UN Human Rights Committee in Geneva on this complaint unfortunately the delegate of brother president Abou Mazen Mahmoud Abbas voted against for a very simple reason
: an Israeli telephone provider had promised the concession for sis Jordan and more Gaza already since Hamas is a Gaza auice of abouazen therefore this complaint was forgotten this time it’s going to be a repeat with actors who are not necessarily the same as in 2008 but with
Risks also that for one reason or another given the things that are brewing in the international corridors this complaint falls through well I don’t know I’m going to move on to a joke that I want to share with you it was it was a joke that circulated in the
Trendy bars of Tel Aviv a few years ago among drinkers of beer it’s a Jewish joke you can tell it by specifying that it’s a Jewish joke we won’t say that you are anti-Semitic the joke was said a pessimistic Israeli Jew learns English an
Optimistic Israeli Jew learns Arabic a realistic Israeli Jew learn an aé I think that any country society state which treats its indigenous Jews well provides support to the Palestinian people good then there is the question sorry sorry the question please well I come straight to the question noting after about 60
Years of more or less militant activity linked to Palestine the abysmal ignorance which reigns on all sides of the Mediterranean on the history of Palestine and the history of Israel I have a question for Rima and then for the rest of you, do you have knowledge or do
You take the initiative to find a way to organize structures for educating people, whether young or old, about these stories which are obviously practically excluded from any official education at any level whatsoever except those who specifically study the Middle East or a good specific subject which I believe would be really
Necessary in my Maoist youth we had study circles and each high school student did a presentation by per week of history me at 17 years old I was able to explain what was happening in the reefs of Vietnam with little flags on the map today I would be
More damned to do it and who would be able today today please just explain what exactly is happening on the ground with all the necessary historical reminders thank you very much we will just take one more last question uh all I don’t know but
One or two more questions and then anyway afterwards we can discuss uh all the questions uh thank you for coming it was very enriching for us in the submersion in the emotions that we are experiencing every day and we still cannot get back to our lives even if
You say that it’s not really our cause yes but we identify we go back to empathy we identify we can’t feel what you feel but we try to do it uh even if maybe we can’t take the decisions you can take to bounce back from the first part uh
We as a Tunisian Arab with less Algerian origins with pride I have never felt as free from colonization as recently with the events that happened in Gaza and in Palestine I felt I felt proud of my origins of my thoughts of my
Freedom to express everything that I feel the f mirror if we return to the mirror effect France was colonized by Germany so it must identify with the atrocities C which is happening in Palestine also Germany has subjected the Jews to several atrocities we all know today it is
Empathetic with Israel for these atrocious atrocities but not by any other policy so normally we expected to that France perhaps France more than other countries is the France of de Gaul and the France of Jacques Chirac big disappointment if we talk about anti-Semitism we are
Semetics we are also semetics we Muslims we are son of Noah son of Ishmael son of Ibrahim if we talk about anti-Semeticism it is also that which is which is done against Muslims not only against Jews so we have to talk about that we are also Semitics
Ultimately we are not we are not anti-Semitic by belonging uh observation made today we are talking about the history of a colonization of atrocity uh maybe uh the little girl in me refuses to accept your solution although it is very logical maybe
You present other solutions for what is happening today in Palestine not a single state maybe I don’t know a solution that can comfort us uh second United Nations what future for United Nations in the face of such helplessness before the state of Israel that’s
A question that I’m really curious to know the answer to and the boycott a very topical question in Tunisia today for Israeli products do you think that it impacts and contributes in the fight against the cause for the Palestinian cause thank you
Very much just one last question two ok good evening I am Good evening to everyone, I would like to thank you infinitely already for all the work you do to defend precisely that it is therefore the Palestinian cause and we clearly see the evil and we must come together in fact ultimately
In the face of everything ultimately this relentlessness to finally silence the word of those who want to finally express support for the Palestinians so me in fact in the final theme of this discussion this evening so in fact I am Franco-Tunisian so I was born
In Paris in Paris 19th so you should know that I I lived surrounded by people of the Judaic faith. I then moved to the 95 so I found myself at high school in Sarcel where there is one of the largest Jewish communities in all of France and I know that we lived
Together that we grew up together whether in Paris in Sarcel I really had a lot of friends of Jewish comrades so really there was never a problem never had anti-Semitism we were really finally that’s what there was Jama this question was not asked we were going to eat at
Each other’s houses and I find it really very regrettable that finally today Muslims in France are really being singled out whereas if you go if they were in fact going do their job as journalists to ask the Jewish population of these neighborhoods what they ultimately think of this so-called couscous anti-Semitism. I am
Sure that they would not ultimately have the echoes and the answers to which they ultimately ultimately prepared the answers themselves so the question in fact is mainly for Mr. David Guirou so I see that ultimately France Insoumise is really doing its job ultimately as a
Political representative to really defend the values of the French Republic whether it is freedom fraternity equality and defend all the causes which are finally just in this world and not to be afraid ultimately of not being stuck on the answer which must be completely all
Done all prepared by we will say other political influences without a good name sure but what I see is that ultimately you are not isolated on the international scene and that there are ultimately many parliamentarians across the entire European community who
Are speaking out and in fact I was wondering if there were not ultimately alliances which could ultimately be implemented between the different parliamentarians within the European Community to be able to carry the voice of Palestinian defense in the name of Europe and that is in
Fact what which Europe ultimately lacks to have a union which finally blocks to finally raise the path of Europe for the defense of the Palestinians thank you in any case just to say
In any case we are present I remain yes yes we have we take a pot and we have food we all have just one last second sorry to speak uh good evening I have no questions I don’t have a word
To say already well as a journalist apologize for the way in which the media Well the French-speaking media the Western media treated the information uh I am a correspondent here I work for television channels the left-wing public service and unfortunately well the treatment of the information was, I personally find it quite catastrophic
So today some journalists it is difficult for us to raise our voices especially for example I am Franco-Tunisian but I was able to discuss with quite a few Franco-Tunisian journalists Fran Algerian uh we are precisely trying uh to alert on the way in which the information on double standards is
Processed and we also regret the way on the TV sets you said it eh the way you had to justify yourself uh and and there it was just a little word to say that that we I don’t recognize it and that’s a pleasure, thank you for having
This conference, for being able to also have our own voices because, well, we journalists too, it’s very complicated to see what’s happening and to see that our voices are silenced to see that our editorial staff are silent to see that in all the live broadcasts that we see from our colleagues,
Whether in Jerusalem or elsewhere, well all the time we repeat word for word the declarations of the different Israeli ministries without ever asking the question are these facts are they a narrative that is acceptable and today we are
Trying to change the narrative too uh and there you go I am part of one of a collective of racialized and anti-racist journalists called Hajar and we are also trying to decolonize this narrative here we represent even if we work for Western foreign media
Uh we are not necessarily agree with everything that everything that is done even less on the Palestinian question so I apologize on behalf of my my profession which has made a huge bankruptcy so I have a simple question it is today ‘today to our author what do you
What could we do apart from the boycott apart from relaying as much information as possible in France what could we put in place at our scale to be able to contribute to our even if we are we are minimal we are small I mean to connect a maximum of information but what
Could we do what could we put in place in as a person to be able to help in any way but there is everything to do that is to say that you can in fact the objective is to continue to make this shine
That what Palestine is so there are lots of ways you can be an artist and in fact think of collaborations with Palestinian artists helping them to exhibit their works finally put them the idea is to leave a little bit of yourself of of of what you do you
What you what you know how to do you all have profiles here which are different if you are a journalist if you are an artist if you are uh I don’t know a researcher if you
Are in the associative sector you will not at all be able to play the same role if you are in politics you will not at all be able to play the same role so the objective well for us in any
Case Palestinian once again I I do not speak on behalf of everyone Palestinian people but I do what I can but it is simply that we are flying roles in fact who are still relays everywhere to continue to say what we are and therefore according to
Where do you start from if it’s the political cause that interests you the most anyway everything is politicized but if it’s the political cause that animates you the most well it could be to actually set up associations to defend the rights of people of the Palestinian people which
Can take different forms it could be on the question of colonization it could be on the question of Palestinian refugees there are lots of things in fact to deal with so I don’t know if you if you really want to ‘act I encourage you to set up structures
To organize yourself to set up events if rather you are in another universe like that of culture it is to set up collaborations and also to give voice to the Palestinians on different ones that once again the Palestinian subject there it is it is not essentialized
That on political speech there are plenty of Palestinians who talk about this cause but differently Palestinian artists if you look at what they do well there is a presentation they do in fact they politicize it they recover they have a also political speech through their
Art and therefore or through their writing through their writings Mahmoud Darwish who is a figure he is a poet therefore and yet he is a figure of a Palestinian resistance so I think it is necessary starting from from where you are and from and from to really setting up
Projects to think about collaborations to think about mobilizations on your scale it can be in the student environment it can be in the business environment it can be in the financial environment it can be in the political environment it’s really up to you afterward to actually see
Where you’re starting from but everything has to be done in fact all aspects of our of our culture of our identity of our word must be relayed and so indeed it is not limited only to images at a peak of current events we must also really embrace what we are deeply
In our history and in what we also do and if you have the opportunity it It’s also about going to see the Palestinians, so it’s not just that there are the Palestinian territories. I’m fighting a lot so that we don’t forget the Palestinian refugees who live in the camps,
Uh, all the Palestinians. Forgotten in fact. Nakba who live in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria and here you have to create space in your lives for these meetings too and on the issue of the boycott and I end on that I am strongly in favor of the boycott but it
Is necessary to distinguish the boycott it must be useful in fact it must be necessary and so here I recommend you to look at the recommendations of comics in fact eh which is which is also very much driven
By the Palestinians therefore by the people concerned and it is also necessary to say here ibds do a lot of education on this on what do we boycott what do we not boycott and how this boycott is useful and what precisely targets and therefore precisely thwart the idea
That we target people for who they are because they are Israeli or because they are Jewish or whatever that is not the idea at all the idea is to really boycott with an impact and to boycott people especially who maintain colonization, occupation and oppression against
The Palestinians, so that is very strong and you cited it today in the Arab world a lot ago of which brands are boycotted and the consequences are even in the United States I saw that Starbucks closed more than ten in fact of their of their of their of
Their of their store so there is really an impact and it’s also an angle which can also be an economic angle, we hit the wallet of certain companies and it can also push certain companies to review their practices or their commitments towards
The occupied territories, sorry I been long but once again I will be there and commit yourself starting from what you are you all have different ways of loving the Palestinians and that is what also beautifies the cause you start from what you
Are and what brings you closest to the Palestinian people is how you will best help them so this will be the last intervention if I have understood the orders correctly there are three small questions there is one on I’m trying to keep it short, I’m sorry, so it’s a little frustrating,
But on the question of the United Nations, what precipitated the fall of the League of Nations was precisely this question of the impotence of international organizations to do apply what is for me the only possible compass in terms of conflict resolution which
Is international law because it is the law which is shared by all developed by all in which everyone is supposed to participate and there is the right internationally there is also the fact that Europe and what we call the West are in fact guilty of a
Double standard who who who who who who who blinds their eyes to the Palestinian question in fact it is precisely on Palestine when we see me I see in France the Ukrainian conflict but 2 days after it started 2 days after the invasion of Russia begins
There is the minister of the economy that is coming which says we are going to wage economic war on Russia with the results that we know otherwise I was not very pro on the other hand it is funny
About the colonization in Israel there is Israel nothing more is this double standard there who is who who who also condemns us the voice of Europe the voice of France to a form of invisibility
Of impotence who who who who who means that afterward there is more than just the United States and it is the power of Force which is the power of force which is imposed and that is something that we are
Obviously trying to avoid but the functioning of the UN today it is an operation which is which is which is which is imperfect with its Security Council uh on the question the person who was a journalist is someone very critical of the media who tells you we are critical
Of the media not of the people who are we know we know that you feel alone and and and we do n’t blame you so we have found a way to resolve the problem he we are for giving powers
To the employees in the factories so we are for ensuring that in each country and well, the employees of the press companies have the power to see because that’s what they don’t have today you can’t decide on the editorial line today in
Many newspapers you in many media in fact you are a journalist you do not have the right to participate in the decisions to the editorial lines to the political lines of your newspaper it’s normal for me me for me a newspaper it’s normal that it is an editorial line c it’s
Normal for him to be in politics I don’t expect a newspaper to tell me I’m objective neutral that’s good I felt the potato goodbye I I don’t want that but but on the other hand, the fact that each editorial line is decided by its employees is what allows us to
Escape from arbitrariness with also another issue which is that as long as employees, including journalists, are precarious, they will be afraid of get fired every time they open it that they will have employment contracts that are not stable because we in France that’s what’s
Happening uh we won’t get there last thing on what was said I think that’s a good conclusion but I think that in fact we need a bit of an international moment on the Palestinian cause. I think that’s a bit of what’s missing today. true
It is that we have personalities in each country who take a stand we have the courage to take a stand it’s not just me in France I have comrades and so on who do who perhaps we have less audience but for example I have a friend
Called yous somargi who gave a great speech to the European Parliament a few hours ago which is remarkable but it’s It is true that the force which was for a moment that of the alter globalist current is to organize large international forums and so on
And it is true that there we have the impression that we have a lot of people who can be mobilized a lot. of people agree but there is not this moment of and I think that in Europe we must do it because it is
Europe which created this problem so somewhere it is also up to Europe to say that she that she wants to resolve it today, Europe supports the process of colonization and these international events in addition to me, they are the most beautiful, they are the most beautiful, when we
Talk about the freedom of peoples we talk about fact we talk about what others don’t have we talk about love we talk about freedom we talk about these things which are such powerful ideas even when we have the impression that the steamroller in front is strong but
But these are aspirations so common to the history of humanity that I believe that this kind of moment of international meeting can also be demonstrations of force because it is a balance of power that we must lead in Europe and in the United States the
United States moreover they put us a step ahead eh frankly for the moment they put us a step ahead uh the American activists they are stronger than us there but it is clear that in Europe there I saw there is a
Spanish minister who is very strong in the United Kingdom there is a firepower there in the mobilizations which is very strong Ireland incredible but a country who has known or Ireland they have known that so obviously the Drs and in fact it is true that we must manage to find this
Strength there of in any case in Europe to arrive then to aggregate around eh if necessary eh but but but that Europe AR manages to say that it has another path which is possible I think that it
Will be a very very powerful signal finally after r you will tell me but for the cause for the Palestinian cause we hello in fact and thank you for being on the right side of history uh just two questions for Ms.
Rima so you said that the solution is a single state because before you they had no longer coexisted so there was no anti-Semitism and everything that we were able to coexist for a few years do you think that with the massacres that have occurred recently is it possible
That there is an anti-Semitism that was created for the Palestinian people and do you think that we will one day be able to forgive these massacres and that we will be able to coexist so that is my first question h no no no the Palestinians are massacred there one day and we can
Still coexist and a question for Mr. Guirot in fact a video resurfaced of President Emmanuel Macron just before his election where he completely condemned the actions of Israel and he said that he he will never align himself with them and in fact today you
See what he did so in relation to your position which is very sharp now in relation to this subject – do you think that a day by day when rebellious France will access the Élysée, will it be able to keep its positions which are sharp or
Not I am tempted to say we will talk about all that over a drink not just very quickly but it it is true that we must have things to say there is no social progress no geopolitical progress that can be made without the social movement and the
Social movement the ability to mobilize in the street it is also the best way to ensure that the job is done, do not think that when you are going to elect someone to responsibilities magically magically he will start to apply his program we in France
The great social conquests that we knew was when there was actually the left which came to power for example but because also in the factories there were strikes and they continued the strikes to support the balance of power because sometimes, including when you
Are a leader, you need this balance of power to arrive on the international scene, say look at what is happening, look at the force of what is happening, so it is good to maintain a scene of distrust I’m not against that but we have to mobilize in fact it’s just
That it’s maintaining the link of mobilization maintaining the mobilization always always always always take to the streets in France we’re not bad at that but it’s it’s it’s the only way to ensure that the job is done and if not well dismissal of the leaders what do
You you want and besides believe us even if Mélenchon is President we will not take away the demonstrations on the question of a state just be clear on that so when I speak of a single state it is not a demand in itself historical in my mouth in the mouth of the Palestinians
Is that today we are forced to deal with a state of completeness the state of completeness is that of apartness I remind you that apartness is documented by Human Right Watch Amnesty UN Betselem Alhak who is also a Palestinian who was the first to document that
The Palestinians have been talking about the party for decades and they have also the BDS boycott movement was launched precisely against this logic of apartment of separation so in fact the question of a state has imposed itself it is not a demand if if you
Want we are already naked in front of you when we tell you that we want a state we have already lost a lot when we say that we want a state it is not something that we are going to gain it is that we have already
Lost something that we must understand well and that is precisely what apartheid reality in fact which pushes us to think about changing paradigm the question of the two states it was viable when we could still preserve the three entities of a state an international law it takes
Three things for you to Fass a state it is necessary what a territory you need an authority you need a united people it is impossible today from AV the Palestinian people united in the West Bank 800,000 settlers and fragmentation of the Palestinian people with Palestinians who live in different
Territories with different statuses Palestinian refugees who are in Israel those who live in Gaza those who live in Jerusalem those who come to S Jordan and authority we have a total bankruptcy today of the Palestinian Authority on which we have no visibility at all therefore the
Question of the party it pushes us to change paradigm and to say today what we want the total liberation of the Palestinian people is to free them from all these oppressions wherever they are the Palestinian today is persecuted and apart he rests on the non-
Jewish Jewish dichotomy that we will oppose to the Palestinians according to the realities in which they find themselves, me, a Palestinian refugee, the aside is based on the fact that I cannot return to my land for the Gazans, it is based on this occupation and this blockade which has been imposed for 17
Years and which has accumulated to 40 years of occupation and colonization for the Palestinian it is the annexation of the territory the colonization of settlement and the occupation also and for those who live in Israel it is the palestinensisrael it is the fact of having
A status of second class citizen when we have this paradigm which imposes itself which is that of the parthid the political demand it changes in relation to this paradigm and so the claim is equality of law our freedom is legality of right from the
Moment we have our territories which are colonized in this state of fact occupied in this state of celebration annexed to C this state of celebration today ‘today what we want is our dignity, it is also in this
Equality of rights and so it is in this prism in fact and I am going to tell you it is my opinion once again it is not but Édouard Saïd, whom you must know, 30 years ago he was talking about
This question of a state because today if we create a Palestinian state on scraps of territory we will recreate an enclave which at any time will be targeted by Israel or target to either get rid of the Palestinians or bomb the Palestinians as we do
Today in Gaza but at no time do we think about the logic of liberating the entire Palestinian people in all these dynamics of oppression and submission to which they are submissive and therefore the logic of a state that is this demand for equal rights is to say
Me as a Palestinian I want to have the right to move throughout all of historic Palestine I want to be able to settle on all of historic Palestine I want to be able to meet all the Palestinians wherever they are in this territory I do not want to live with
40 checkpoints every time I want to do 5 km I do not want to live in an enclave I do not I don’t want to live in an open-air prison and this demand for a national identity is all
That it embraces, that’s all that it allows us to embrace but it’s clearly a failure, it stems from a failure and this failure is apartheid so there I don’t know if it’s just reminding you that it’s not a solution which is historically claimed by the
Palestinians of course but it is today we can more in turns a blind eye and defending two states today is defending gazabis I tell you in the Jordan if we create a Palestinian state Israel will never expel 800,000 settlers they will protect them they will rebuild
Walls between Palestinians and and the Israeli settlers and they will redistribute all the resources to the Israeli settler and the Palestinians will be left with a second Gaza in 6 days and as I say we will be here in 5 years discussing the bombings that we are
Doing undergo to the Palestinians in S Jordan I am sure and certain of it therefore it is important today to say the dignity of the Palestinian people today it rests in this equality of rights which must be claimed to undo this [Applause] apparation
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