I was part of this community I was there for 12 years before I got branded Sarah Edmonson is a acclaimed actress and voice artist she’s also a cult buster one of the lies was like you make a lot of money and truthfully I did make a lot
Of money compared to most people but that was something that was very rare most people did not and they used me as as like a bait for other people it’s not even so much is this a cult or not a cult don’t worry about that let’s get
The word out of the way is this thing this program this group this family this club this whatever is it healthy for me can I leave can I leave without being shunned am I still going to be friends with the people or are they not going to
Talk to me on the street like that’s a huge red flag you’re listening to the real business connections Network Real Business connections Network powered powered by balbert marketing LLC subscribe now and check us out at real busc connections.com enjoy the show welcome everyone once again to learn speak teach on the real business
Connections Network I’m here today with the lovely Sarah Edmonson Sarah what’s happening how are you I’m 98% I’m good I’m glad to be here just recovering from something but I’m I’m I’m here for it whatever it may be hey I’m blessed and honored that you took the time even though you’re feeling a
Little bit sick and um I’ve been I’ve been binging you and your husband nippy’s podcast for the past like six months so I’ve been looking forward to this one yeah I I I’m on let’s see episode season five episode 12 which one’s that I don’t know the numbers um
Iing out for you I guess I don’t know which one it is I was just pointing out the fact that I started from zero and I’m all the way to season five yeah amazing that’s how you’re supposed to do it right that’s that’s that’s great what
What are you learning let me ask I’m I’m flipping the scrip what what what did you learn from our podcast well and it’s funny because we haven’t even gotten into the bio but we’ll do that in a second um your podcast is a little bit culty and what I’m learning is these the
Human behavior and social dynamics whether it’s love bombing or gaslighting or just the pressure placed on teammates to conform to certain tribal standards within a culture is massively pervasive across the board not just in Colts and I’m starting to notice it more than I ever could imagine that’s awesome I feel like
That’s mission accomplished that that’s what you’re getting so to to bring everybody into the conversation Sarah Edmonson is a acclaimed actress and voice artist she’s also a cult Buster um she was featured on the cover of the New York Times as a whistleblower exposing the cult Nexium and she chronicled that
Experience in her Memoir scar which I read that as well was fantastic and currently co-hosts a podcast a little bit culty with her husband nippy in addition their Journey escaping Nexium was documented in the HBO hit docu series The Vow and I’m just super
Excited to I by chance I did not do this on purpose I was in Albany New York yesterday no way yeah what are you doing there um I host a LinkedIn live with a few people and they live in the Albany area and I hadn’t met him in person yet
So I just came to say hello what why is Albany just a we’re not going to give the whole stories cuz you wrote an entire book you’re on the New York Times the docu series The Vow is incredible so I want to get in things that aren’t
There but to bring people up like what’s the significance of Albany New York let’s start there we’ll start there so I was a part of a a personal what we thought was a personal and professional development program which sidebar had I met you 105 years ago and been invited
To this podcast I would have been super excited because your audience would have actually been like our our exact clientele people were who were in business who wanted to learn and grow wanted to develop themselves and the best versions of themselves and expand their whatever it is that they were
Working on so I was part of this community I joined in 2005 and it was similar to a franchise where there were centers around the world um I ended up opening the first one in Canada but before that the main Center we called it the mothership like that’s not a red
Flag uh was in Albany New York and I attended trainings there I came out almost once a quarter at certain points sometimes even more than that for different workshops trainings seminars meetings and uh yeah a real love hate with Albany um there’s parts of it that I find really beautiful like Saratoga uh
Which not Albany obviously like the the region Upstate New York and Hudson and Troy like nearby beautiful our hus our my me and my husband have a son named Troy who is actually named after partly that region also Troy Aman but is I’ll let you dig into when you speak to nippy
Later um but yeah and the hate part of it was that I always did not enjoy going there and I never really knew why I kind of thought it was maybe too Suburban for me or something like but there was just there was something about it but turned out it
Wasn’t so much the city but Keith rer himself who is the the leader if people um have been living under a rock and not heard about Nexium Nexium is the the the the name of the company overall but when we joined it was executive success programs or ESP Keith rer created this
And he was the philosophical founder aka the Vanguard another red flag and he was uh permitted up in a little in a little Enclave in Upstate New York called Clifton Park which is part of Albany so that’s that’s my connection there I hope I never have to
Go back um I did have to go back actually last fall to for a wedding in Hudson and to fly through the Albany airport and brought back a lot of memories and I I I love in your podcast and first off thank you for your vulnerability
Across the board in your podcast in your book and I love in your show that you guys do dive deep into like what you got what got you into it because even just like hanging out I am not drinking but they’re having a couple beers with people in Albany um there’s this
Pervasive like thought that it’s just a bunch of stupid gullible people that show up and start having sex with each other and they’re getting branded and I know it’s a total freaking like place of ignorance but I found myself defending you guys like I don’t think you understand how human behavior works I
Don’t think you understand what’s going on here but what is going on that people just don’t seem to see what’s happening and they come to these massive generalizations that are things that happened but it’s not like you signed up for that right that’s actually something I
Say a lot I never signed up for that if some I was there for 12 years before I got branded if somebody had said to me when they invited me to the program initially in 20 2005 would’ you like to do a personal and professional development program and look at your
Limiting beliefs and in 12 years from now have the leaders initials seared into your flesh in a secret group um I probably would have said No in fact I know I would have said no because that’s crazy but in 12 years there’s a lot of grooming and indoctrination that can
Take place and this is definitely something I appreciate you having our back by the way and I’m also like totally used to it um but I feel like those tides are changing a little bit with things like the vow and holy hell and wild wild country and going clear
And all these incredible documentaries that are out there now about cults or mind control or indoctrination or coercive control or high control groups whatever you want to call it there’s different terms in the in the space but I think the main thing that people don’t know is that
It’s in in many cases Nexium was it was it’s great because it brought a lot of this to the to the front and people could look at it and and learn from it but it’s also an extreme example of what goes on everywhere and some things that might be more socially acceptable or
Normal not that it’s okay but things like hazing in a fraternity or a sorority people do all sorts of things they would never do otherwise to to get their pledge or whatever it’s called to to be part of the Brotherhood or The Sisterhood um pure pressure is an an
Example of that U you you’d say like why would they do that well they want to fit in they want to belong and so that there’s certain dynamics that are at play that are are much more heightened as well in in a group like Nexium um that start very slowly and
Follow of almost like you know when a Playbook so when we interview people from other groups and they tell us how they got in and and how they you know what they were signing up for what they were signing up for was always something good always something really beautiful
Like when you think about a sorority like the good part of it I’m signing up to be part of a sister her with a bunch of like-minded women who are going to be my my teammates through this crazy Journey called University like that’s the good part of it was the bad part of
It I mean we all have to look alike we end up getting uh drunk there’s a a terrible rape culture there’s a terrible hazing culture there’s there’s all these terrible things that are the underbelly of it so oh I totally tangent it you ask me what do people not understand oh so
With with all of these groups that we’ve we’ve looked at with our guests what draws people in is is something that’s really wonderful whether it’s a community or a yoga practice or a breath work practice or a a um a goals program or a political activis group there’s
There people are joining to be part of something part of a mission that is one part of it and there has to be something good on the outside so when you’re having drinks with your buddies in Albany and like all those stupid naive people branding and having sex with each
Other we didn’t be like oh let’s sign up for this sex call no we signed up for a goals program we signed up for a tool set that would help us achieve our goals and and bust through our limiting beliefs that’s that’s like a really great thing but with all of the these
Things there’s a but you know the term bait and switch 100% right there’s there’s yeah so there’s I’m saying it’s one thing it’s actually another thing like you invited me to your podcast there’s no ba and switch I’m I’m invited to your podcast to talk about your podcast now
If this was actually sales funnel for you to have me do your coaching program or something that would be a bait and switch there’s like a lie there right so in marketing and in sales there’s quite a bit of that but there but in some ways it’s more acceptable because it’s like
Hey take my free online seminar and then join my coaching thing and then like it’s sort of laid out for you right there’s no it’s not hidden all of these groups have a hidden agenda and ultimately it’s for the leaders power and control and for them to say I’m doing
This to help you come join this thing to so you can work on your goals but really the leaders extracting value from their followers for their own benefit right so we don’t you don’t know that we know that now um and that’s another thing I’d say is that like from the perspective of
Somebody having a beer and looking be like oh that’s so dumb yeah it looks if I had just seen The Vow no that’s not true The Vow I think was really good at showing the journey yeah yeah it it did Justice I think if you were just to see the cover of the
New York Times not read the article understand yeah yeah if you just saw a couple headlines you be like that’s so dumb and and I actually recognized that and I’ve talked about this publicly that you know in the Harvey Weinstein uh the story broke and you
Know all the me too stuff happened had I not gone through my own experience of that I would have been like why did she go upstairs with him right you know why wouldn’t she just leave no it doesn’t work like that there’s so many factors
At play and like I and I’m sorry I’m tanging all over the place I blame the I blame the robot tessin my mind is a little tripped out but there’s the the template is really the same in all the groups regardless of what it is that
You’re signing up for so I mentioned all those things yeah and one of the things is you are almost instantly love bombed so all of these groups make you feel really special you’re every single group ever talked to especially in Christianity we are the only true church
The only the chosen ones we are the ones that have the direct line to God in the religious in the religious uh cult um in personal development like we were we were Nexium then there was Landmark we’re so much better than Landmark we’re so much better than access Consciousness
Or so much better than Tony Robbins like we are the only way to bust through limiting beliefs and evolve yourself right so we you you’re not only do you feel loved and accepted and belonging and part of a community which appeals to a lot of people myself included and is a
Real Drive we’re special and then you start to get isolated from the outside so there’s this US versus them mentality that occurs like we and you see this right now so much in politics it’s so divided it’s the right and the left the VX and the antivaxx the
Red and the blue it’s like one or the other it’s binary it’s black and white and black and white like there’s so many divisions and each side thinks that other side is wrong and that side is right so there’s this righteousness yeah so the more you go down the path and the
More committed you are and there’s all these other things that happen and like you become more um you could become more dug in so if like you if you really believe this and people around you are going well be careful or that maybe even that’s a cult
Or like you know what are you up to you have to be able like no this is a good thing like I’m CH I’m choosing this and I love this and people tend to double down and double down even if they start to see that like they’re not getting
Their money’s worth they want to wait around to get their money’s worth that’s one thing I was trying to get curious about because um in a cult or even like a multi-level marketing structure where there’s a lot of money to buy in possibly and then a lot of
Work just to start recouping that money and gaining momentum like it seems like a big Financial Risk what it how did you feel taking a risk like that like you you really thought that you was it like the humanitarian perspective like why was it worth to take that risk to kind of
Devote so much time to this kind of thing well it’s interesting because I didn’t start with that I didn’t start thinking I was taking a risk I thought I thought I was doing a personal development class for my own goals and to help with my relationship the the
Relationship I was in at the time I wasn’t like you know I’m going to devote my life to this right that came later um and I think that came later as I got more invested and there was part there was part of me that was a little
Bit of a like can I who on this podcast yes absolutely okay little bit of like a you to the naysayers like I could do this and almost like an individuation from my parents who are both in in like my mom’s a therapist my dad’s a retired counselor no psychotherapist this is
Like their field and here I am going like I found something better guys like how naive of me to think that was better but also a little so like so prideful be like this is I have a short basically I was a shortcut to to therapy I felt and
I felt like therapy was was a lot of talking and not actually getting anywhere and we we actually had the tools the real tools so in answer to your question the investment and also okay the other thing I’d say is the investment wasn’t so like I didn’t really understand what
How much I was investing and it did it wasn’t like you know invest $5,000 and then you’re going to get this it was like it was a slow drip over time and there was there came a point where I did want to open a center in Vancouver and I
Didn’t understand how bad their business model was like anyone who’s ever and by the way we were told it was not an MLM because mlms are unethical and Keith is the most ethical man in the world so it cannot be an MLM which now I see does
Not make any sense but I believed that was not an MLM it was a normal business structure and anytime it’s said questions about the business plan or the compens plan and how we were getting paid any sort of concern or negativity about that was always put back to me as
My limitation something I didn’t understand or you know I I put a lot of trust and faith that that my leaders had my best interests in mine but I did not nippy and I talk about this all the time we totally underestimated their capacity to lie to
Us and they did and and one of the lies was like you can make a lot of money and truthfully I did make a lot of money compared to most people but that was something that was very rare most people did not and they used me as as like a
Bait for other people like if Sarah could do it if Sarah could get out of her basement Suite apartment and move into a a condo you know you can do and that was something that um you know did motivate me for sure to to to be able to
Have a career where I could help people with their goals and make money it was great I I for a couple years there I thought I had a dream job if it was real it would have been a bill it would have been a dream job you
Know I even wrote this down Sarah um from your book um nany said if every city had a leader like Sarah this company would be unstoppable yep yeah I forgot about that she did say that it’s uh also making me feel special yeah it’s the I don’t think
There is anything called y about it but I was at the summit of greatness Lewis how’s great podcaster School of greatness puts on a summit and I swear everybody that’s a volunteer is like instructed and taught how to give the perfect high five because I couldn’t walk I couldn’t turn my body without
Getting high-fived and nothing wrong with that but I felt the energy and as someone who’s kind of like a mellow dude I’m like what are are these people on something they seem like so energetic and happy to see me and I’m just some random dude that they don’t even know
And that’s that’s love bombing right yeah I mean if there was a hidden agenda it would be love B I don’t necessarily think there was a hidden agenda but I did feel what it felt like yeah I don’t think that so love bombing to me has the connotation of
Manipulation gotcha you know like if there’s like we’re gonna make him feel good let’s go out there and make him feel good and make all these new people feel good so that they blah blah blah blah right that’s kind of where it feels like love bombing because I think you
Can go to a party and feel good and feel accepted and feel like you’re part of something it’s not love bombing it’s just more about like what’s the intentions of the people doing it that makes sense right so you can love on someone build community treat someone with love and respect allow them
To feel heard and seen and understood without an ulterior motive to to use them as a pawn in your chess game yes and and even still like I would say you know we didn’t have the term love bombing when we were doing it but we were like you know when we’ have an
Information night we said let’s make sure there’s lots of people there so people feel welcome and people would come and they would go like I don’t know what it is that you’re doing here but I like it like I like how I feel the vibe
And so they’d sign up yeah they like the vibe um some people didn’t and and we’d be like well they’re just not our people that’s okay um but that I wasn’t like trying to manipulate them I was trying to show them the vibe of the community
So that they come so even still for somebody like me I had a positive intent you know I wanted to bring them into the fold into team Humanity I just was wrong about the team so I think that even still like something that we where you were just at
I don’t know anything about the group people around you could have positive intentions and be really great people maybe the CEO of the companies back there you know doing something nefarious I’m not saying that’s the case but like yeah you don’t really know who’s controlling the the pocketbooks you know
What I mean like where’s the money go I guess that’s another question to ask always and in this specific example definitely to my understanding not the case I just knew what it felt like to be in a community where everybody was just energetic and positive and giving high
Fives but that’s not bad where where do the heavy red flags come into play uh give you a side example and I’ve never talked about this on the podcast there’s a missing episode and I won’t go too deep into it cuz it’s under litigation but there’s a
Company scribe media and they had the best company culture entrepreneur of the Year Javon McCormick the CEO best place to work for in Austin Texas like everything was amazing and everything crumbled like they weren’t fulfilling client orders they weren’t paying their Freelancers apparently the CEO this is uh this is uh
Allegedly the CEO was ultimately using his own money and like taking company money to build his personal brand and he had an incredible message I loved him I saw him as a mentor he was all about diversity he was such a brilliant thought leader but he was running this
Company into the ground and apparently they had different things like pressuring people to leave a review on how happy they are to work there very early on into being with the company and like people were kind of gaslit and not part of the In Crowd if they disagreed
With the company culture and all this stuff was going on behind the scenes but when I talked to the guy I loved him I loved what he was doing it seemed incredible and now that’s a missing episode because it dropped the week that he had to let go 100
Employees cuz they were going under and and this is me just kind of thinking out loud this is me just sharing I don’t really know if I have a clear consensus here but it blew my mind you asking about the red flags things weren’t what they looked like on the outside and no
One saw it and then once it happened and people started to talk everyone was like oh my God this company was a sinking ship the entire time but no one saw it I think probably people did see it but didn’t know what they were looking
At and I and I see that time and time again I if you’ve seen the documentary out for blood in Silicone Valley about the Theos debacle with okay but you know about with Theos right with um Elizabeth Holmes she’s the one who created the blood thing and turned out it was a big
Scandal she was scamming everybody no you that ring a bell no and if I don’t know the listener might not either so give us the brief okay okay so basically and I’m going to I hope I don’t butcher the facts here but Elizabeth Holmes was kind of like a female Steve Jobs in
Silicone Valley and she was basically got a ton of people on board and I want to say Henry kessinger like out all these like former very high up political people to fundraise millions of dollars for an invention that she said she had and she didn’t really and she had this incredible corporate
Culture kind of like apple Vibes um and it was basic it was something to do with like being able to collect blood um like the way that a lot of people have to get their blood work done for diabetes and all sorts of different things she had an
Invention that could be like an atome way of testing it was a very very small version of what they do in the lab and it was a SC like basically she had an idea but she didn’t have like was kind of fake it to you make it and she
Just really thought it would pan out she’s I think she’s in jail right now there’s been a whole trial it’s wild oh yes I do know it’s click name the company coming back it’s a couple years old she had a big and she was getting these investors but she wasn’t actually
Fulfilling the product that she was telling people she would fulfill yes yes and actually we’re going to do an episode on it with one of the whistleblowers who’s in that film um in January and that should be really and I’ve been waiting because there’s a
Trial like we had to wait till the trial was over when you watch the documentary and You’ know my story and you’re familiar with these templates it’s it’s very obvious watching it there was this corporate culture there was this rah rah but one of the things that was totally
Snuff out was any descent anyone saying wait I don’t think like this is actually you know this isn’t working anybody would just be booted and so that’s that’s one of the red flags I always say right away like if you can’t express questions or concerns without being
Gaslit and for those people who don’t know what gaslighting is it’s it’s actually like the word of the year in Miriam’s the Miriam Webster dictionary last year is that it’s it’s basically when the person is trying to make you doubt your own reality and question yourself but one of the ways it looks
Like is if I say oh hey I’m concerned about XYZ and it flips back to me like you know why do you think you’re being negative right now Sarah or in the case of Nexium if I had a concern it was like you know Sarah you seem really reactive
About that like it’s my issue like my reactivity is the problem not the problem that I’m pointing out and then it’ be flipped to like you know maybe she go journal on that or talk to your coach I didn’t realize how suppressed I was how I could not speak my auth
Authentic true voice until I got out because I couldn’t go up if I went up because you know the pyramid structure of MLM if you go up the person above you your upline then I would be gaset but if I went down that would be like bad
Leadership you can’t express oh you know that like oh I’m concerned about this like I would so I was sort of stuck where I was not able to share with anybody it sounds Lon terrible it was very lonely and I actually don’t even think I even captured that in my book
Because it’s something I haven’t figured out really till even more recently like just how much toxic positivity there was like I just had to be like this is amazing like I’m so happy everything’s so great like the tools work I an embod I’m an ambassador for Humanity I’m an
Ambassador for the science of Joy which is what we taught and that’s I’ve since learned is in almost all these groups have this toxic positivity of you know singing The Gospel doing the Lord’s work and I think Sarah this is part of why I love the podcast so much and I
Enjoyed the vow even like right when it started is because a lot of these tips and like a lot of it’s based in neurolinguistic programming and you know spiritualism and a lot of it isn’t bad like it’s not the worst advice in some scenarios you do want to look in the
Mirror and say what part of me is projecting upon other people was this actually my fault let’s go Inward and determine like what storyline or what inner child wound would be helpful to heal to move forward with grit and Grace that’s not unreasonable but when it’s used where
You start the gas light yourself and there’s an actual problem and it’s not you in the mirror it’s the piece of running the operation which you’ve been taught it’s always your fault like this isn’t bad advice it’s just like it’s it’s Mecha the way it’s being used yes
It’s a really really good point because a lot of people even people who are still loyal to Keith if you can believe it they exist and they think that he’s misunderstood and you know nippy and I and the other Wille blowers are the bad ones and he’s the good one like it’s
Wild but they were like but the tools the tools are so good so many of the tools are really good and everything you just said yes understanding your inner child and your trauma wound and all that stuff projection inner work all that stuff is so important personal respons
Ability so good clutch and super clutch especially in all of these yeah you know self-awareness and personal development groups like take responsibility for don’t be a victim don’t you know don’t put it’s not your parents fault like look internally blah blah blah great but when you need to point out a problem the
Company needs to be like you know and the company needs to have a place where they can take feedback and if you can’t feel like you can’t give feedback without being in trouble or being ostracized or punished or oted that’s a major major red flag uh and in that same
Vein I’d say um actually just did a tedex talk which should drop literally any minute like maybe while we were on this interview and and I’ll send it to you afterwards we’ll put in the show notes because this won’t drop this won’t drop today so it’ll be in the show notes
I’m looking forward to that perfect and I try to give people like a brief overview people like your friends drinking beer in Albany like yeah they don’t know anything about this they’re not going to listen to my podcast they’re not going to watch The Vow give
Them a 15 minute to talk like what’s a like a little mini schoras board of understanding one of the things is if if you’re not sure about a group and you can Google is blank a cult and if anything comes up any allegations any lawsuits where there’s smoke there’s
Usually fire and there were so many allegations about nexem but I’d been trained that when somebody like Keith Riner wants to teach ethics to an ethical world there’s going to be push back right and what’s the worst thing you what’s the worst thing and which is
True people try to do things in the world there will be push back there it’s not the case for him and that that is actually one of the most dangerous things there’s so much truth in all these things and there’s little droplets of Lies it’s really hard to discern what’s what these
Days how do we discern any thoughts on that because there’s a lot of things enjoy it’s you and I joked about it we don’t have to go deep into it but a buddy of mine created a breath work app and then they have bath houses where they create emotional
Bonds and experiences through hot and cold therapy and breath work love and kindness meditations and I’m 100,000% on board but I’m also not in the Inner Circle and I I think in this scenario they’re fine but there’s situations where there’s these Yol Cults and there’s like I feel like it’s everywhere
And I I don’t know how to discern like everything I just said is a good thing breath work good thing hot and cold therapy good thing emotional bond with friends all those things good things I can’t I have a negative I don’t have a single negative thing to say so how do I
Discern that things might not be what they look like yeah it’s so tricky I think the first thing to know is that that there’s there’s no group that is not susceptible yeah to abuses of power so it can happen anywhere it can happen in a PTA group like you saw the show if
You seen the show Dance Moms where like it’s it can happen it happen in the military it can happen in the government it can happen in big Pharma it can happen anywhere so the question is do you do you know what to look for and I would say that it can also start
With great intentions there’s a lot of people I’ve seen especially in the yoga Community where it sounds like somebody had really good intentions great person and then it blew up and then that you know Fame got to their head like imagine being a dude which you are and having
Like 50 yoga you know scantly dressed yoga women throwing themselves at you I would imagine that would be quite hard to deal with with as an with an ego and the male sex drive that’s a recipe for disaster right not I don’t you started out no you’re you’re know you’re you’re
One of the good ones but then there’s people like Keith reri who saw people in positions of power and like specifically went out to start this so that he could manipulate people like people were always like did it did it go did it go Ary or did he plan this from all
Accounts he started an executive success program so he could have something good that would people would be drawn to that would create dependency that would pull people in and he could have a Harum he could have he he could have unlimited for himself sex power and money that’s
All he wanted mostly sex well wasn’t he celibate that’s all he wanted that’s what we were told I I was told he was celibate that was one of the first things I was told I was like why are all these women around him like well they’re helping him with
Complete his different projects and Mission but he’s celibate he doesn’t need sex because he’s so evolved red flag um so it answer your question how do you discern yeah I think it’s so important and I’m I’m actually back on this journey because I still do love personal development and I’m a
Parent and I started you know working on my parenting and that led me to a to read reading some books on parenting which let me do some workshops and I’m like oh I’m in the workshop space like H it’s icky for me but I’m also like okay
Not all thought leaders not all teachers or conmen or grifters or con women you know how do I discern so I think the m one of the main things and I said this is sort of like the punchline on my TED talk is that like you know you don’t
Need a guru you don’t need a essential oil starter kit you don’t need a you know $10,000 Retreat you just need tools for your tool belt so take the tools put them in your tool belt use the tools in your life don’t make the tools your
Life and if I if you were like hey Sarah I’m leaving my podcast to go run the um media component of my friend’s bath house I’d be like okay are you being compensated like are you getting paid well you know do you have transparency like I just like let’s talk about what
You’re dedicating your life to you’re like no I’m doing it because it’s like humanity and it’s really important to me and I’m doing it for free it’s like not a big deal I’ll be like that’s a really big red flag Ben like don’t do that and
A lot of these things start that way like they’re you’re just trying to be a part of whatever it is you feel like you want to help move forward in the world and you end up giving your life force towards something that’s like not even actually your project but you’re just so
Love bombed you don’t see how great it is so I i’ say yeah know the red flags um keep your like use the tools don’t throw yourself in your whole life um and and constantly be getting outside thoughts like if if you if if anyone’s listening to this and they’re
Like oh I’m in a group that like I realize might be a little bit culty listening to what Sarah’s saying let me go ask the leader like no don’t go ask the leader go on the Internet or go ask the people around you like do you think
That it’s it’s not even so much is this a cult or not Ault don’t worry about that let’s get the word out of the way is this thing this program this group this family this club this whatever is it healthy for me is it toxic can I
Leave can I leave without being shunned like if I leave this Orange Theory or um CrossFit or wine club am I still going to be friends with the people or are they not going to talk to me on the street like that’s a huge red flag can you come
And go you know that’s thing there’s probably a big difference between I’m doing CrossFit and my buddy decides to start binge eating is not working out doesn’t show up so I don’t hang out with them because we’re just doing different things in life that’s a little bit different than they’re a terrible person
That’s toxic and it’s a good thing they’re gone because they’re a poison to every like there between separating your from things that aren’t serving you and completely maliciously putting people on the spot as if they’re like broken or wrong for leaving right yeah I mean shunning and excommunicating is a real thing that’s
More in religious groups but in nexum we were certainly guilty of that like I don’t think I shunned anybody but I definitely was like oh well I guess they’re not on our team anymore like I was pissed so sometimes when they left CU we were I thought we
Were close I thought we were doing this together I never didn’t talk to I never like ignored somebody on the street but they do that in the Mormon church and Jehovah’s Witness say that when it seemed like and I’ll get into this with nippy he’s going to be part two it
Seemed like you guys weren’t as bought in as some others you kind of had a foot out the door which gave you a little bit of like you you you you weren’t as bought in as you could have been and I think it made it easier to
Whistleblow yes 100% I think a couple factors there one is that we didn’t live full-time in Albany we did get a place there in the last three years when Troy was born so we could have a place to go to you know we rented out when we
Weren’t there but we never lived there people that lived there and made their like their homes there and their lives there that’s a harder pill to swallow when you recognize that you’re wrong you know so we always had one foot I want to say in reality because I I lived in
Vancouver it’s far away from Albany so I didn’t I wasn’t being checked up on as much I wasn’t being head with as much I wasn’t being I didn’t have every issue that I have em which I explained in the book or and The Vow as well where
It’s like an emotional process like a therapeutic process to kind of change your thoughts on something which can be really helpful and it can also be really manipulative if somebody has bad intentions for you so and I think that they kind of also did that on purpose
Even though they were really trying to get us to move there I think they also knew like Keith knew that it was better for him to have me as like a as a pipeline you know like just as somebody who is getting people there and you like
The top one of the top recruiters like you were incredible at speaking the mission bringing people on board building your own you you built the Vancouver center right so yes you you’re kickass they needed you they needed me so they they didn’t want to they didn’t
Want to push me too far yeah you know what I mean so they they they they get and and I was good at keeping the good stuff and not doing the stuff I didn’t like and meanwhile pretending I was doing at all like I didn’t really
Realize how much until I left that I was like just took the thing extracted the goals program and the things that like the community and then there was all these other things I was like I’m not doing that I’m not that’s no I’m not doing that I didn’t realize how much I
Was not doing and pretending to do because I also wanted to be the good girl yeah let’s let’s talk about the good stuff and I know this is kind of no no in some ways oh you learned something good like you learn some positive tools right you had mentioned taking the tools
But you don’t have to take in everything like what did you learn that maybe you still used to this day did any positive come from it oh yeah some so much positive I think the only way I’ve been able however to say this is something I
Use is to be able to like trace it back to where it came from originally gotcha because Keith didn’t have a really an original thought in his mind yeah he was a very good plagiarist to the point where we found out later that like when he started this he did
This program called XOXO was so stupid it was sort of like a yoga Pilates blend that he was trying to like create his own new style like it was yeah we got in trouble for doing yoga at a certain point because I us to see yoga every day
Like when we had to do xos I was so dumb but we found out later the people who he had hire to help and create it was literally like highlighting out of like Pilates Basics and yoga Basics and okay you know physiotherapy Basics and like cobbled it
Together and like this is my Brilliance like no you just frankensteined that go ahead I I just feel like don’t we all extract wisdom from multiple places the difference between someone with humility and a total sociopath narcissist dangerous person is I extract wisdom all the time but I didn’t come up
With it I didn’t create the program I’m not brilliant I just read a lot but he was presenting it as if he was creating something that didn’t exist before he graced this Earth to my understanding right exactly that’s the big difference that is the big difference and and even
Like the basic tenants so you asked me what’s still good about it yeah there some basic tenants around um sort of Buddhist philosophy there’s a book called um radical acceptance by Tara Brack that I really like and some of the exercises in there are almost verbatim
Some of the things that we did wow in in nexum yeah and and I’m not I’m going to butcher this but things like when you see when you’re having like a reaction action towards somebody and and like pinpointing specifically what it is that you’re reacting to and
Looking almost at like how you may have also done that thing in the past you know and what you were going for usually has a positive intent like like a radical empathy yeah radical empathy exactly um and seeing the person as like a little kid just trying to be loved and fit in
Or whatever like those kind of in the moment exercises to like not be a dick or to go from you know a if you’re angry like go to to really look in inward about what’s the fear underneath an anger um it’s something I still probably do a lot um another one was just
Scripting which is like business 101 you know how to reach out and do an ask like hey Ben heard your podcast reaching out to see if you wanted to be on it with me um not sure if you have time in your schedule takeaway but if you do I’d love
To connect you know like how to ask for stuff in business that was something that a lot of people did not know how to do I still do that yeah and in a way that’s like it’s like you’re not putting pressure like hey I wonder if I could
Borrow the blah blah blah not not sure if you’re using it on the weekend but if you’re not like let me know I’ll swing by you know like it’s just it’s a it’s a nice way to deal with people I think things like that like little business things emotional things and then also
Very practically cuz all classes were philosophical emotional and practical a lot of practical things that I’m sure he took from like seven habits of highly effective people and like things like that but I don’t know if you can see here I have a whiteboard okay oh on the
Wall yeah so that’s my whiteboard and doing a whiteboards were big part of Nexium like ny’s whiteboard was like the size of her whole like a whole basement and she had all her so it’s like all the projects were on white boards with next steps and colorcoded I still use my whiteboard and
For the listener Nancy was the president and kind of ke y’s right-hand lady in the operation and she had a background in neuroscience and NLP correct like she was a smart she was a smart lady possibly maybe that was a smok screen as well you don’t know we don’t know we
Don’t we found out later that she yeah we don’t know I mean that’s that’s what we were told like she definitely had bad background that gave her validity that he could kind of harness she did teach goal Pro goals programs in like Con Edison and things like that but um we
Don’t know how much of her resume is real or not it’s like we don’t know Keith’s this stuff again this is why again a little a little bit culty podcast I’ve been binging on it and that’s why this is so interesting to me because when I was watching The Vow and
I only got through it one time but I’m recalling like certain marketing tactics and like I’m like this is really smart like I can see like I’m calling a spade a spade here I see what they’re doing like as a guy who runs a marketing firm
One thing that I talk about all the time is there’s no better recommendation than a thirdparty referral a third party testimonial creating a tribe of people talking about you in a positive way behind your back and these are great strategies that work and when you have a
Good product good service you’re in the best interest for your client and you step away when you can’t help them they’re incredible strategies but Keith was using the exact same strategies to pretend to be the smartest person in the world to extract testimonials from the members to get
Everybody recruiting each other to and again I I watched it one time but the whole like presenting the pitch scene in The Vow when they were talking about the presentation and the takeaway and objections and I’m like oh my God this is like this webinar 101 to manipulate
People to buy now or else and I’m like like this isn’t bad advice for a good willed person but for a bad willed person this is toxic y That’s why I think he got so many people who are I mean a a lot of people around him did
Illegal things and need to be held accountable but yeah there no one signed up for this right nobody did nobody nobody signed up to be Jalen Maxwell to Keith rer and he had a bunch of them when even ultimately I think a bigger question because bringing in like you know you
Were an actress a lot of actresses and directors and you know notable people were in which helped recruit more and like you guys brought the dolly llama in and like some sort of event on Richard Branson’s Island like can these Dolly let’s use Dolly amb Lama as an example and this might be
Controversial but can the dolly llama just be bought if I have enough money will he endorse me like can’t he see through the himself why would the dolly llama not notice the red flags or can he just be bought yeah I I can’t I don’t know for sure so this is my this
Is my opinion um but but I think that there’s the D Lama and there is a bunch of controversy around him now as you probably know so we can kind of separate that out for a minute because that’s sort of being resolved or not all come
To light but separate from that like we didn’t know about that at the time I think I think that he there’s like and I think I see this with all sorts of gurus and thought leaders and people in his position there’s them and then there’s the people around them so I’m my guess
Is that he’s that the people around him could be bought so they could get his endorsement uh and that’s what it appears it appears that a million dollars was gifted to the foundation which I’m sure they could really use you know yeah and then and then and
And I don’t think that he was around them enough to be able to like see the red flags but if you see the watch The Vow like the Dal Lama’s like on to him Dal llama is not having the wool pulled over his eyes fully yeah just that was a really awkward
Scene again awward we’re kind of talking about stuff that you might not have seen so in the show Notes The Vow is Sarah’s book is I literally like binge on it it’s incredible but yeah that scene with the dolli Lama was really awkward that meeting felt weird Keith looked like he
Had just done drugs or something I don’t it was just like a slop do you know what I’m talking about it just was a weird scene to see that interaction I feel like I wish I had seen that when I was in because what we had heard was so different than what I
Saw in that in that in that scene in The Vow like so and just so you know when people watch The Vow they’re like oh it’s so obvious I’m like yeah we didn’t all that behind the scenes footage of like Keith at home with the women around
Him and like him being so gross and his home being so nasty yeah and that really awkward scene where he goes to convince the Dal Lama to come and do an appearance and Albany all of that stuff is not we were not privy to as Outer Circle or inner Outer Circle outer
Inner Circle I was I thought I was part of the Inner Circle I was not because I was not part of the Herm so there’s a lot of things going on behind closed doors um but yeah in answer to your question I think that all of these groups use endorsements Like Richard
Branson like the dalight Llama to say like you know to give a stamp of approval and that’s actually a a red flag I I see it with other with other groups using both of those people and Richard br was like I don’t who next him what like I don’t even remember doing
This when it all came out yeah you got me thinking deeply I I I I asked people for testimonials all the time but I’m not ill willed yeah when I’m doing no testimonials are are I mean it’s like we ask for reviews and our on a little bit
Culty like we want people to to say hey this is good you have a patreon you have yeah yeah we patreon people people people support us and I think asking for support and asking for testimonials is not bad it’s just if you are a con man
And you can say hey well Dalai Lama says we’re good that’s it’s just a lie you know so it’s like are you being truthful or not so is your patreon even just a little bit culty or no it is because it’s a group right that’s the problem it’s a
Community and we always joke like I mean we try to be tongue and cheek about it our our tear you know how there’s like different levels that you can join our tears are Fanatics um uh flying monkeys no sorry loyalists okay Fanatics yeah flying monkeys you
Know flying monkeys are no do you know where that term is from it’s from Wizard R vas okay the the wicked witch sends out her flying monkeys yeah to do their dirty work right so flying monkeys in in the narcissist world so Keith did didn’t
Do a lot of his dirty work he had the people around him like Jeffrey abstein uses jillen Maxwell that she’s a flying monkey for Jeffrey okay so that everyone’s got a flying monkey who’s in these positions of power right um and then the top tier of our patreon is Inner Circle okay so
We we just like we just made a joke we like made it it’s tongue and Chic like yeah come join us in the Inner Circle like what do you get there you get a sign copy of my book and a little bit culty hat and some lip balm like it’s
That’s that’s the extent of it there’s no bait and switch right there’s no lie like we’re asking for money to make the podcast keep going to pay for the production of the podcast and in exchange they get you know adree listening they get Early Access they get
To help create some of the content they get live zooms they get a bonus episode every week they get a present like they get a lot of stuff that’s an honest exchange yeah right if it was I’m actually extracting their emails and then I’m going to hit them up for
Something else that wouldn’t be cool and you’re not using there you’re not using their support for some six sadistic personal reason you’re using their support to get this message to more people that are hurting healing or weirdos like me that just honestly it’s very interesting just to study it from
Like a human behavior sociocultural kind of perspective and see the marketing that’s happening and the sales and it’s just like for me it’s just interesting as heck and it just amazes me how interesting humankind is is a simple way to put it the fact that keither exist is
Mindblowing to me because not well there’s a lot of them too can’t even imagine is it it’s just is it a chemical imbalance I think based on my non-expert expertise and talking to so so many people and researching other yeah people like David Kesh Jim Jones
Other cult leaders a lot of them have a very similar um what’s the word uh life experience and that’s and and this is again I’m not an expert but sure just from my like dim store analysis yeah a lot of them did not have a very good upbringing they I don’t
Know how much you know about attachment Theory and attachment parenting but there’s different types of attachment Styles and basically the long and short if you’re listener doesn’t know it’s like it’s like what kind of bond do you have with your parents is it healthy do you feel like somebody’s there for you
Do you feel safe do you feel protected do you feel heard and if if somebody doesn’t have that with one of their parents or both of their parents it can create sort of different personalities that they grow up and what you see a lot of is like if somebody if a woman for
Example has daddy issues is is one way to call it it’s like not a proper psychological term Daddy Issues they may they may be looking for a dad figure in their life to replace that father because they don’t they didn’t have it and vice versa with men and their
Mothers um and different combinations thereof are and so what I see with a lot of these men is that they didn’t have proper attachment to one or both of their parents and especially somebody like Keith is a real hatred of women a really latent or not so latent
Now but um we I didn’t see it when I was in there because it was so well hidden and then combination of so they call it um a vulnerable narcissist say certain type there’s there’s you know there’s like over 50 narcissists like different kinds different like self yeah different
Blends and like sociopathic narcissist wounded narcissist vulnerable narcissist huh I don’t even know I I can connect you with some experts on that if you want to do another episode because that’s not my area of expertise but it’s F it’s fascinating it’s not just one type and but these a lot of these
Sociopaths um and Keith actually taught this to us and if you want to dig into this more with nippy uh taught us how the sociopath um basically knows your psychology because they used to have it right but they also have a whole range of options
Of how to operate in the world that you don’t have because you have a morality you have a good and bad Spectrum right but a sociopath is willing to lie and steal and cheat in the game of life because he can or she can and they know that you would never
Do that because you’re a good person so they know that you don’t suspect it damn and did your mind looked a little bit blown on that last comment did that the sociopath stuff pretty wild right what’s wild about it for me is as a career I’ve been studying marketing
And sales and human behavior and psychology for quite some time and scenarios do occur give you a simple example that’s not malicious I know for a fact I could sell someone something I know based on the conversation that I could convince them to sign up with me
But I know there’s going to be a churn I know that I can’t deliver based on their needs I know it’s not a good investment for them so I as quickly as possible tell them that and in scenarios I worked for a company that told me we don’t do
Anything for free that like if someone if I can help them in 45 seconds and be like set up a Google my business profile do this this this and this you’ll get momentum then come talk to me if I can do that why not do that but you’re saying there’s certain people
That see even the even if there’s going to be churn even if they’re not a good fit if you can extract $4,000 from them today it’s still worth to take their money because why not when I have this emotional reaction like I shouldn’t do this I shouldn’t sell them
Other people don’t even have that thought process or they notice it and they’re like excited about it like oh look what I get to do blows my mind because I’m not wired that way but does that make sense you’re yeah you’re a good person and you care about people and you know
Keith gave us an example once about because he taught us about sociopathy he called it he called it suppressive same as Scientology by the way and he talked about what people take the fall like Lucifer took the fall right and I my my biblical Bible studies are not like up
To enough but what I understand is um no I’m not even go there because I don’t want to butcher it but what I what I will say is that he talked about he he was basically like you know there’s people in the world he didn’t he said
Like you know the out there they may call it it even said like might be like a sociopath but you can’t see what they’re doing because you’d never suspect it like he even taught us yeah how to look for it so that we’d never consider that he was also doing it right
And and one of the examples he gave he used a lot of metaphors so that people could understand different concepts or different mindsets whatever and he said imagine being you can do this with me for a minute yeah imagine being in jail okay like you’re in jail right now and you
Know that to get out of jail you might have to say murder the guards how does that feel if you had to like murder someone to get out of jail as a as a person feel good about it bad about it no my assumption is I’m in jail
Because I deserve to be there so that would be okay okay that’s great so now imagine that that you found out the guards are just robots and you could be free but all you have to do is like pull a cord or like snap a wire turn them off
Yeah um do you feel like you have more options to get out or like do you feel like I mean you started with a pretty good assumption like I did something bad I deserve to be there but now like you want to be free and all you have to do is snap a
Wire right how do that feel and I have like quick route out of the country and a place to go and I’m innocent and I don’t need I shouldn’t be there in the first place yeah yeah let me out make it as simple as possible let me out yeah
Right so he said that feeling is how sociopaths experience the world people are just robots that they can just snap a wire and get out of their way to do whatever they want so that’s I was like whoa that because i’ I’ve heard of the term objectification yeah and how people
Objectif people and you know use people for their own devices and that I think was such a great example to imagine what it’s like for somebody who just objectivize people I don’t see you as a person I see you as a robot that can either serve me or not serve
Me like what AIC worldview I know right yeah so how do you and the thing is is that what I’m learned is that people who who like Keith who’ve learned this also know how to present as normal and no and that’s where they see this like charismatic leaders is that
They express themselves and this is one of the things they talk about if you have all the options to be successful plus a whole bunch of options that other people wouldn’t take you have all the options in the world that’s a lot of confidence like imagine the confidence
You feel knowing that you can win because you have all these extra Tools in your tool belt including lying stealing cheating so they present high confidence I get their confident I get their living the life it sounds so freaking exhausting to be cloaked with a
Lie yeah but they don’t see it as they don’t see it as a lie they see it as an asset I know right I’ve learned so much about this and it also makes me so skeptical of people who have a certain kind of Charisma and a certain kind of
Like you know like okay what’s it’s really going going on here look at their parenting how they were raised it’s why we need Sarah and nippies in this world to talk about it have authentic vulnerable discussion expose these lies because it’s it’s not like there’s just
Keith reri David Kesh a couple of them out there and then we’re good to go this is very pervasive isn’t it no it’s very pervasive you know you’d be surprised like I I kind of almost want you to put me in a room with those beard drink
Albany guys because one thing you could say and I appreciate you having my back but one thing you can say is like have you ever been duped like have you ever been like because anyone ever kind you like so many times people especially since the vow which one of the reasons
Why I love it so much people are like you know either something is as wild as okay thank you to The Vow this we get these messages all the time thank you to The Vow I left the Mormon church I left the Jehovah’s Witness I finally was able
To break away from my extremist fundamentalist whatever all sorts of different things and then then we have people who are like you know I was never in a cult but you know I I lost a ton of money to somebody I really trusted and turned out was just like milking me you
Know and they were conned and they missed the red flags because they trusted somebody and so I I yeah it’s way more pervasive than I think people know and it it goes back to like you know basics of when you know see somebody in a domestic violence situation you go
Like why didn’t you why didn’t she just leave right it’s so much more complicated than that yeah sure so much so so so much more Nuance which is why I love this these conversations and also why I love doing like somebody might look at my podcast and like why are you
Doing a business podcast like because this is the ven diagram overlaps right here and there’s a huge spot in the Middle where your people and my people are the same people all wanting to seek and be better and to grow and understand themselves and that’s a really ripe spot
For people like keithr Erie so I I love to be able to jump in the business conversation and try to shine light as best as I can and thank you for that people are probably listeners like frequent listeners on my show are probably wondering Ben why are you doing
A business podcast and when I first started the word connections came from on LinkedIn you make a connection and I had just started a company and I didn’t have any connections so I used the podcast as a way to learn from business professionals way farther along than me
But as the podcast has evolved and how you know I’ve evolved I’ve learned that storytelling and mindset and vulnerability and understanding the emotions and the child work and a lot of these things that don’t feel businessyoutube like it’s not it’s not the tacal fep St sales strategy but it
Works a different muscle that often is laying dormant that we might look at our leader and be like do I want to be a part of this team or is this culture manipulating me or maybe I Google search and am I part of a multi-level marketing
Setup and if so what’s the success rate here not saying all mlms are bad but if 99% of people why do you say I was going to say if 99% of people aren’t successful but tell me all mlms are bad just by the way that it’s structured
Mlms are always going to be and this is one of the lines in my book Kei AR I don’t know if you remember this when he was getting me to do a pitch for something he’s like just make sure you have a good State because you’re giving
Them the illusion of Hope and that’s that’s why there and I couldn’t wrap my head around that was like what the illusion of hope that’s the all of these things are an illusion of Hope oh my God all an illusion of Hope none of it is true and they’re good for the they’re
Good for the 1% that start it and make a ton of money totally but their their in their income I mean they could say oh it’s great look how much money I’m making but look at the people you brought in are they making money no and they’re not not making money because
They don’t have the right mindset they have they’re not making money because this Compensation Plan of every MLM is set up for fail for failure only the people that taught make money that’s how they’re set up it’s possible so it’s a lie it’s another bait and switch that’s
Why I don’t like mlms I’m very loud about that you don’t have to be but I can be I can be the bad guy please well for me it’s I think about the structure and I think about some of the people at the top that are making
Billions of dollars and the fact that that money doesn’t trickle down into bonuses and commission for not just sales or marketing but for the accountant the operations if you’re fulfilling orders all the sales don’t matter if you can’t fulfill them so why is all that money not trickling down so
Objectively the person who took on the most risk is going to be at the top but I feel like the triangle is so darn narrow like it should be as wide as possible where the person at the top makes money it trickles down to everybody else and is that not in a
Sense multi-level setup like businesses are set up in a multi-level way just by Nature well B businesses by Nature are usually like a pyramid there’s somebody at the top who brings in you know overseeing other people bringing other people but the the MLM structure what makes it unethical I think and not good
Is that the compensation plan for for like the math to work you have to recruit so many people to like almost all compensation plans you’re only earning a tiny percentage of what your people bring in and you have to usually match it like on another leg right so it’s not just like
Directs it’s not like I’m selling a vacuum cleaner to you and I get 20% commission right right that it’s not it’s actually much much much less and you have to usually balance with another leg or a structure there’s all this sort of crazy math that goes along with it
And also for people to make money the way that they promise they have to inflate the cost of whatever the thing is so it’s like oh this new mango juice or aloe vera spritzer or eye cream or hair whatever it’s you know this is like
The best of the best of the best lies first of all but let’s even assume it was a really good mango juice concentrate and they’re they’re saying it’s worth like you know $100 but they’re going to give it to you for 20 no it’s only worth five and they’re
Selling it for 50 you know what I mean so there’s already there has to be an inflation of the value of the product for the for the split to work out and a way for people to make money so there’s a lot of value distortions in the compensation plan and in the Distortion
Of the value of the thing itself got it and and you’re making money by creating this false sense of Hope in recruiting other people that continue to recruit other people but the product and service offering is not sound it’s usually it could be trash yes if you want to do like a more
Of a deep dive into mlms there’s a guest I’d who’s been on our podcast who I love and her book’s amazing her name is Emily Lyn Paulson and um do I have her book it’s not there I think it’s over there somewhere anyway I will I’m happy to make the connection
She’s a great interview and she can she can go into more details about specifically why they’re an ethical hi sweetheart how are you boo yeah do want me to set it up for you yeah do you want to say hi you can you know what you can watch
In my bedroom in a minute because Daddy’s gonna take over and he’s gonna do an interview next come here come see this well you can’t because I’m doing a podcast no the sound’s going to make noise let me set it up you go watch on your new bed
Okay want do Bluey and I’ll be there in a minute we’ll have a cuddle okay you have fun at Fern bag okay B for Bingo bub bub Bingo bye buba Bluey that’s right oh God he’s so cute um I should go because he’s home
Now and I got to go be with him and ni’s ready to rumble with you is there any else burning questions or I mean a million of them I I honestly feel like I did it a service that I wanted to learn a little bit more about Sarah and the
One thing that’s a burning question is yeah how the hell are you doing how are you healing what’s new how do you feel oh thank you um I mean other than having whatever’s cold or whatever but I I feel like I’m six years out I really
Love my life nippie and I look at each other often and just go like our family motto is who has it better than us was looking at you know looking at our lives and feeling grateful for um our boys and being able to live in a new city and
Start fresh and have our podcast and you know we’re we’re still the same people that we were when we started this and obviously we bet on the wrong horse but we pivoted to a career that’s been so meaningful and so in line with who we are and we actually get to help people
Now and that’s super rewarding for me and yeah I’m good I do a lot to heal I do a lot of self-care an excessive amount some might say a lot of not culty yoga lot of hot baths a lot of forest baths a lot of
Hiking time in nature I try to say no more than I say yes is hard for me um but yeah I’m I’m good we’re we’re good we’re solid as a family and that’s really good for us I’m happy to hear that um I appreciate you I know you do
This for like a living now but unveiling in letting people into your life and Having the courage to stand up and speak this I can only imagine it’s still difficult yeah it it’s it’s definitely um can be can be where you know trying at times but overall it’s still very it
Seems more it seems per actually purposeful and feel it’s you know kind of a weird road to get here but I’m happy where I am yeah so I’ve got one quick question at the end but beforehand we mentioned the vow we mentioned scarred links to those
Are in the show notes um the podcast a little bit culty which I’ve been binging on anything else we can do to support you I know that’s already three action items but any other way that me and the listener can be of help sure I mean I think Your Inner
Circle and yeah join the Inner Circle get a copy of my book I sign it and send some goodies but I think the best way is if you listen to the podcast and it resonates send it to people send it out to people who you think might be part of
Something a little bit culty I think the vow is also a great way to kind of politely deprogram somebody without saying hey I think you’re G to call they’re like hey you know check this thing out I just watch and a lot of people go oh that’s similar to what
I’m doing um yeah and when the Ted Talk comes out to share it that would be helpful well I think that’s it come find me on Instagram Sarah Edmonson and a little bit culty we’ll do the thing and reach out like the this might always be the case but you and nippi are
Responsive you’re replying to your own messages you’re friendly you’re there to support so if someone needs a helping hand reach out to me and or reach out to Sarah um yeah final question what should I ask nippy um what should you ask ni uh ni’s part two guys it’ll come out in a
Moment part two yeah you could ask him because I I want to get into this we didn’t have time he was really good at running goals Labs okay and I think that the goals lab was because there was Forte and I think like the thing that was most relevant to business people is
And back to what you were saying earlier like being in business but also understanding the emotional world yeah that’s what the goals lab addresses and I’ll let him explain why um I think that might be relevant um ask him why he didn’t like vwe Vanguard week and why he
Didn’t do a mission statement or enter his coach data okay they did you do those things yeah we’ll try to get them why he didn’t give a about yeah why he didn’t give a about the strip path now I have to ask all this because the listener is going to be at wanting
Wanting these questions so do it I’m sure you’ll get lots of information I I hope it’s not too redundant I kind of wanted to ask him how he managed not to beat the out of somebody because it seems like got there you can ask him that too he’ll love that that’s that’s a
That’s a common that’s a common one and and and a fair a fair question Sarah you spent more time than we planned on with me I truly appreciate it go be with the family part thanks for having me and we’ll talk
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