Friends welcome to another episode of fori days we are honored to have with us today Major NJ Bali who is the author of the upcoming book uh the winning culture lessons from the Indian army to transform your business welcome to the show sir thank you page it’s great to be
With for days same here sir uh jbali is an infantry man and he was commissioned in the Ford Bihar he has done tenures in some of the toughest terrains in India he was commanding a rash rifles Battalion in J jamu and Kish and was awarded the SAA medal more about
Him as we proceed with our conversation so sir uh welcome to fori days and I have just finished reading the advanced copy of your book The Winning culture and before we discuss how lessons from this book can be drawn to help our corporates and the business culture in
The country I have something to say to our readers and it is this it doesn’t matter whether you’re running a business or not doesn’t matter whether you’re a student or a veteran doesn’t matter whether you a reader of fiction or non-fiction there is one important reason why you should be reading this
Book and that is the mesmerizing stories of a soldiers and our military that are captured in it uh they will give you Goosebumps they’ll well up tears in your eyes and my biggest fear is that if this book remains confined to the business bookshelves of the bookstores some of
Our readers would lose out on these captivating stories stories that we all cherish that belong to our heritage our military so it’s very important that you read the book so sir coming back to our conversation let me start by asking that most mundane of questions that every
Author is asked what inspired you to write this book all right so I’ve been looking back at the four years since I started writing this book and uh while I have always been interested in culture as a driving force yes sir that really shapes our organizations whether towards
Victory or defeat or being ordinary right I can actually spot thought a moment when this thought might have triggered in my head okay uh I’d gone to IM Amad to deliver a talk yes sir couple of years before that and at the end of the talk one very smart student got up
And said how is it that you guys in the Army are so different from us okay you come from the same demographic as us same parenting same backgrounds true but you are willing to die without having bonuses at the end of the year what is
It that changes you now uh I asked this question in many forums to people correct I always get a wrong answer okay and the answer is you are more patriotic than us that’s not true okay everybody outside the Army is as patriotic as everyone in the Army you’re right so as
A matter of fact I never heard of this word during the four decades that I was in uniform yes the short answer to this question is that every organization every Club every company every political party every family yes has a culture right right you can grow that culture thoughtfully or it’ll grow
Like you know weed in your Lawns right right but you will have a culture right and that culture silently collectively drives us correct to do things that we cannot imagine that we can do true true that’s the difference and that is what triggered in my mind right as to could
It be that there is something to be said to the world outside right which may have applicability uh to everybody else’s lives it so that’s how this whole idea came to my mind great great sir but then the question arises sir that the culture of the the environment of the military
Is so different from the corporate world no one thinks that he is joining a corporation or a company for life people are always thinking in terms of you know how their career growth will occur through various companies or through you know different stages whereas the military is an aspirational career for
Life a person who is joining in the joining the military is having a very different frame of mind so how do you compare that uh lessons from the military or the military environment are applicable to the corporate environment it’s an excellent opening question because I think this question would cross many
People’s minds it would it would see uh the dynamic or the environment in the military is dramatically different from what exists outside right right we are very clear about that we clear about you mentioned one issue of uh you know the continuity of service within the army
People sign up for Life yes where it’s aspirational you desire to be there and stay there absolutely the other critical part is that in military there is no profit motive there isn’t that is a crucial determinator or a crucial fault line correct between what is existing outside correct and what is existing
Inside the third is my own observation that life outside is very transactional yes sir you deal in the corporate sector with each other when you want to deal with people about the CTC the package the CTC the package he’s in your project today so good guy yes sir in the Army
Everything is relational yes sir right the third part is actually in our hands to change yes having said that let me come back to the original question yes sir I have clarified in the right in the introduction of my book that it is not the theme of my book that anyone should
Try and copy the Army’s culture replicating the Army’s culture would be a nonsensical idea okay there are two different environments altoe having said that there are certain Universal truths certain Universal attributes okay certain Universal values that have driven ary’s culture to the heights that it has yes which I think can be taken
Can be emed and can be shaped according to the requirements of the corporate culture correct right so it’s not my case that you should just simply blindly copy the Army in fact you shouldn’t copy the Army at all canot you cannot and you shouldn’t why should you yes sir let me
Give you one example leading by example is a central tenant of the army officer’s life or an army Leader’s life it is he’s going to put his line on uh his life online correct but he will lead by example he will who says this is not a pertinent
Lesson from the corporate sector right the point we have to examine is where it doesn’t exist how do we build it into the culture correct correct and that’s the that’s the theme song of This Book that’s how you draw the inspiration that’s how I draw the inspiration right
So in the book there is a very curiously chapter curiously titled chapter called why are officers dying and you have collected statistics and data to arrive at a certain conclusion so would you share with our viewers uh what that point is that you’re trying to make there absolutely so the second chapter
Is called like you said uh why our officers dying see back when I was a colonel after I had commanded a rashal rifles Battalion I was again summoned and I became a staff officer in Saga okay coordinating the anti-terrorist operations okay or cont Insurgency operations as we call it then right now
That gave me an Insight on both sides of the uh you know Isle as a commander in the field and command the field someone on the ground you have overview of how everyone is so I got a strategic overview now yes and I had a tactical overview right in one of my analysis
Something struck me how is it that whenever you read a news item or you get information from Kashmir or elsewhere it says one officer Two Soldiers injured or one officer one soldier dead or one officer three you know whatever why is there always an officer in the
Mix involved true when the ratio of officers the soldiers right is not shouldn’t determine this kind of statistic right so I dug deep into that and the short answer to the question I found is that irrespective of what we are taught in terms of tactics our young
Officers and I’m saying right up to the L of Colonel want to physically lead from the front they want to physically protect the men that they are commanding true is it a good thing is it a bad thing to have so many many casualties the jury is out I’m not going to comment
On that but they want to do it physically and they want to do it physically because there is this element of army culture that every corporate sector company should latch on to and that is this you are most motivated when you feel protected in an environment correct you everybody wants to be to
Feel safe in a corporate company you want to feel safe about your job the fact that you will be treated fairly the fact that at the end of the year somebody will give you bonus as per your abilities the fact that when there is trouble in your home somebody will reach
Out the fact that when there is co the company will take care right the equivalent of that in the Army is we are protecting the soldiers lives physically their lives right and that is why leading from the front or leading by example became that chapter by our offic
Is D and would you say that this is something unique to our army or do armies across the world follow similar patterns I think armies across the world would be following the same pattern because when you are expecting somebody else to you know you know one of the
Things that has been highlighted in the Press often is that at least the Pakistani army does not lead by example in this fashion their officers are not in the front and in the Caril War it was proven Beyond doubt that even their soldiers were abandoned towards the end
They did not even collect the dead bodies from the battlefield right whereas our officers were right up there and I was telling story about that in the book and I can relate part of it if you have the time but let me tell you something I’ve had the occasion to
Attend a stud program in a think tank in us with three Pakistani officers okay serving officers okay and I was a serving officer okay and I saw their thinking and their approach and I’m not saying this because they’re pakistanis or we consider them enemies I’m saying this as a professional right I think
Being in power has corrupted them right I think they are not the same people as us right I’m talking about Indian army officers it boils down to culture again it’s again BG down to culture they don’t have the culture we have absolutely so if you see in one of the stories where
Two Raj captured toing you would find that the officer who managed to get away right his Hut was with had a music system and had chocolates and had stuff the men were living in you know living in terrible conditions right the point you made about they’re not accepting
Their bodies or the Mortal remains we don’t even call bodies in our case correct the Mortal remains of the soldiers is a very telling point right is a very telling point I don’t know how they maintain moral in an army where the the very soldiers who are your family
Members are not accepted for whatever reasons uh they do let me end this with give you a contrast there’s a story about a gentleman by the name of major moit Saka to Raj he is no Brigadier I interviewed him extensively I researched by interviewing people on Zoom right and
I took down the entire story as it happened on a particular night when they were attacking um Lone Hill okay and when it came to talking talking about the casualties of his men of those days 23 years later B sua broke into tears okay today 23 years later he said I felt
Helpless as a youngster because they are my kids I had to help them and I didn’t know at middle of the night what should I do I’m just citing this that is the extent as to the extent of our our attachment yes our fellow feeling and
The way we are and this is uh this is you know whatever I say page today is not to TomTom the Indian Army’s virtues that’s not my goal it is there for everyone to see what the Army does or doesn’t do true all right uh but it is
To make a point that this is the culture that silently drives us to do such heroic things and such touching things where we feel attached to the people we command I know you cannot probably do the same thing in the corporate sector to this level but I think my one
Takeaway would be let’s all stop thinking about being transactional let’s start building a little relational uh you know equations with the people we command in the corporate companies correct sir the benefits are going to be phenomenal phenomenal absolutely and some good companies have always proven that point always examples look up to AB
Done that uh so so one of the things is that you know we all understand life is inherently risky you could be crossing a road and that’s a risk uh it applies to individuals applies to corporations applies to even the Army the militaries and you talk about the fog of war in
Your book now the Army is an institution trained to to be rigid in many ways the training is very rigid you are supposed to follow rules protocol be very particular meticulous even the slightest deviation is sometimes frowned upon yet when it comes to the fog of War things are totally uncertain the young
Commanders have to take decisions under uncertainty to some extent that situation also happens to corporations right sure sure it so how how do you infer from from the what the army goes through because Army is life and death cooperations may not be life and death but how can you draw the right lessons
True apply them to the corate so anyone who’s served in the Army knows that your plan doesn’t survive the first first contact with the Enemy all right like what Mike Tyson said he said everyone has a plan till you hit in the face absolutely okay then you then you only
Have a template correct then you improvise correct now you see it’s a great question and I I want you to I want to point your mind to a dichotomy which has bothered me or kind of exercised me for many years it is this the Indian army like most armies
Lives a very orderly life it does everything is neat it does the cantonments are neat even our writing is dictated by a very rigid protocol called the minor SD all right in other words whatever we do in life we are trained to be methodical clear CER put in neat
Boxes straight lines and so on and so forth correct how is it then then that the same Army thrown into a battle or thrown into Kashmir or thrown into Northeast suddenly is able to adapt to uh very different situations and uncertainties and ambiguities of Life yes sir all
Right I didn’t didn’t really have an answer to this question I read uh the psychology of military incompetence incompetence by Dixon where he has mocked the Army obsession with in fact it’s a chapter called yeah you talk about it in the book The Answer came from uh General VP Malik one of our
Ex-chiefs whom I really admire yes sir he said hasn’t it struck you we are so neat and orderly in our thinking so sequential so clear about the basics that when the crisis erupts our mind already takes care of most of the factors some factors are non-negotiable
In our mind now we are free with the rest of the memory to deal with the uncertainty that is unfolding what is the lesson for the corporate the lesson for the corporate is the more process driven you are the more you are imbued with good habits for individuals and
Good processes for your verticals and your companies and the more clear you are about your ethics come the day of the crisis you won’t face so many questions right you will know what is the right thing to do it’ll be like as if a part of it is muscle memory that is
Just kicking in when the crisis you don’t even have to think I couldn’t have put it better part of it is muscle memory and that is how you uh you act on it and that is how you you know how this benefits you uh in life even to an
Individual it benefits certainly to a company so it also highlights how important training is because this can only happen with repeated training absolutely absolutely you see training is an important feeder into the culture right there are many other feeders right there is the tradition right there is
The storytelling which I will which we can talk about a little more and that’s why the whole book is storytelling yes it is right because storytelling is a very powerful thing to carry the memories from past to present and present to Future correct sir all right so there are many factors but training
Is certainly one factor most important more important factor and you know in the Army you are trained and trained I mean I joined after I was class 11 student when I joined the army and army made me do a graduation and MSC and Mill
A study program in the US on and on and on and they just keep training there never ending never ending so so yeah true sir so sir u a defining aspect of military leadership is that a military leader often takes a decision to put his men In Harm’s
Way could be a operation could be a battle could be something and he often there have there be there are casualties and the leader has to live with his decision of having you know sent his men and then the consequences whereas uh in a coroporation or other
Spheres of leadership you do not have such situations so how is leadership in the military different from the other forms of leadership okay so I will have to uh modify your statement a bit you see in the Army the leaders that the officers are not only putting the
Soldiers lives in the arms way they are accompanying them there no I meant slightly at a higher level the general level you know you are just basically issuing orders but you are you’ve risen through those AB like you say you’ve been a battalion Commander you’ve been
Brigade Commander but now s you are a higher General absolutely and you order troops into for example K and ipkf are two classic examples mentioned in your book so ipkf was not a wellth thought out operation it resulted in over a thousand casualties for us achieving
Very little yeah and in Carill also one could argue or many people have argued that the casualty rate could have been lower had we just been patient and you know let winter set in and right maybe the pakistanis would have gone back right but we just chose to attack right
Uphill yes against in in an open terrain with no cover and therefore we had over 500 casualties so decisions like these which impact your troops but the cooperations leaders corporate leaders never go through such decisions I agree you see the risks in corporate sector are different qualitatively different
But they’re pretty serious too there’s a loss of Revenue of course there is which they worry about there’s a loss of reputation yes there is the litigation that might happen there may be massive attrition right there may be many issues in corporate sector which are very complicated indirect impacts which are
Very complicated long consequences I think uh without saying that the top corporate leaders are are don’t have leadership or certainly that’s not my case at all right uh what I feel is that the Army leaders who reach the levels of certain senior levels of brigadiers and Generals yes sir have risen right
Through the system right right and having risen through the system the culture teaches them never to abandon the soldiers right whom they’re ordering whatever they ordering them to do correct sir they continue to protect them right in variety of ways right sir the soldiers are of course never put
Into Harm’s Way without thinking that goes without saying right but a soldier knows that if he’s injured right the Army’s culture is such that he will never be abandoned in the battlefield okay when he’s dead his family will never be abandoned they will be taken care of other than what the government
Does correct sir the armies will continue to stay in touch stay in touch right so there is a cultural thing to it where no matter how far you are from decision making you are continuing to protect uh you continuing to make them feel which actually brings me to my next
Question and that is that the Indian army or the Indian military in general ensures that the families become a Inseparable part of the military so if there is a commanding officer leading troops then there is the CO’s spouse who is equally responsible for the welfare of the families of the troops and this
Goes up all the way to the chain of command where even the uh Army Commander’s wife for example would be equally interested in the welfare of the troops below the families below and uh so and so forth so but this is not seen in the civilian world it is not seen in
The corporate culture so again is there something to be learned from here the way the Army treats the families of its it’s it’s this view may not uh sit well with many people because they’ll say you guys are different and we are different I think the corporate sector is Miss in
A major trick by not integrating families into their system okay the argument sometimes is that but our people work for only a couple of years then they go away right sure people move around move in the Army too from unit to unit right in the Army the family is
Treated as part of the whole system one small example there is hardly any socializing in fact I don’t think there any socializing where families are not involved right in the corporate sector there is no socializing where the family is involved world it is just the you
Know the vertical goes out for a drink and things like that right now the armies then feel so much the families feel so much part of the system and they are taken care so well that they support their husbands or you know who are who are doing the difficult job they’re
Doing I can give you endless examples but I’ll just point you to uh the chapter I’ve written on this it’s called not by Brotherhood alone there are four or five cases I’ve written out of countless there are many where officers have been martyred or they’ve died in
Line of duty and their wives complete civilians have practically fought their way into the armyy please remember that the Army does not give you a quota there’s no quota system the husband dies and the wife gets a job in one case in case of colel mahadik his wife Swati was
A CO’s wife right she was even overage yeah 37 I think you mentioned 37 years old she fought her way and she says I almost died doing the training right but there is there’s another case young girl called Nia call right married for 10 months right used to work for TCS
Husband major dond passed away in an operation in jnk and when I interviewed her after her training I asked her I said Rika yours is not a case of culture you never been to an army unit so how did you like the Army she said no sir he
Was my my my inlaws were from the Army and my mother-in-law pushed me into the army that is the kind of uh you know feeling the families have which other organization can you count you can tell me where you lose your child or your husband and you want to and now you want
To support that organization further you know it just tells you what you really feel about how the organization is taking care of you absolutely right in fact I remember a interview I was doing with General cardoo and he mentioned that uh gurka Soldier had died in the
Line of duty and uh when the news was taken to the mother in Nepal her first reaction was recruit my younger son yes and let him serve in place of his brother and you know car forward the Legacy I have a coate called Wing Commander Gish Kumar very senior pilot
With Indigo and his wife Magna they become very famous now in because Magna is pushing a particular cause their only son ake died in line of duty and ever since that day and ake didn’t even get a medal by the way right it’s not like he got a great gallantry medal and Things
No ever since that day they have opened an NGO and they are helping those dispossessed children or those who don’t have enough wherewithal right sir on joining the Army absolutely that’s what it tells you you know this is how the you know attachment is by the way you
Mentioned ipkf I’m sure you know you know with your great knowledge of military history that one of the first balion that went there was 13 Cai yes sir they had a lot of casualties 60 plus they did in one case they lost the whole platoon in the University attack and one
Soldier survived goras Singh goras Singh Is is not an old man living in Punjab and the same uh wi Commander Girish and his wife Mna heard about him right and they heard that he didn’t have a house right they collected money they gone to Punjab built a house for him that is the
And gor Singh has nothing to do with Girish or Magna true sir so if this is the kind of attachment you can develop the spirit you can develop what has corporate sector got to lose and everything to gain if you start integrating families into their system
Absolutely I fully agree with you so sir uh while you were in the US uh you have been mentoring brigades in uh us and India you’ve lectured at the army war College you’ve lectured at the defense services staff College you’ve lectured at the Infantry School Maho how different is it when you now
Mentor coroporate Executives and what is it in the boardrooms that you would want to say that what they should be learning or picking up in terms of cultural traes that would really help them few pointers great first let me start with the strengths of the corpor sector that we
Have right sir uh our corporate sector by and large is uh Innovative uh they exist in an environment where they really have to you know fight their way through they have all sorts of challenges even if you have a big company your challenges are coming from
Guys who sitting in a garage so you are fighting an asymmetric Warfare all the time yes that they focus on the profit motive makes them efficient not just effective but also efficient right their expenditure of resources is what they right bring out which in the Army’s case
May not be may not be equ not equ no I thought it would be heretical to say it but you said it and I agree understand that I fully agree that’s the second part right third is uh both my kids are in in fact all four if you count my
Daughter-in-laws are in the corporate sector my son runs a company okay I think the amount of dedication and hard work and to the detriment of family life balance right that the corporate sector does we didn’t do true all right so these are some all the strengths that
You’re willing to work hard right but what should I tell them on the flip side right sir there are actually seven chapters on that right first thing is and I’m not going to talk about all seven right sir first thing is culture matters yes do not talk about it as if
It is something you want to put on a poster on a colorful poster Splash on the wall or you’re going to speak from the pulpit right words don’t matter no words are cheap excellent what you actually do matters right your culture matters it’s a force multiplier it can
Make your business go up to the next level many X if you focus on the culture part that is the first thing second stop being transactional actually start leading teams in a way that you’re related to them correct sir all right doesn’t matter if a man stays for one year or
Six months in fact I encourage companies to continue to stay in touch with their ex employees no matter whether they working with the competitors or anywhere else okay all right build a culture where people are cared for three always always always uh prop up those who lead by example
Right and the last and the fourth lesson is again sometime I’m surprised that many people don’t understand this do not treat all mistakes made by your team in the same fashion right there are mistakes of judgment yes please Overlook them right otherwise you will end up rearing rabbits when you should be raing
Tigers you will kill initiative yes if you keep hitting a man on his knuckles every you took a call it’s the shest way of killing shortest way right so there’s error of judgment Overlook it maybe you tell the person how to do it next time there is error of omission and laziness
Please come down on that push people Mentor them train them if they still don’t learn then of course let them go but that is an error you must fix otherwise your teamw workk will suffer the hard workers will resent the fact that the leard are also getting the same
Some get away with less third is errors of intention a man starts money A man does something which is immoral a man lets down the company leaks the company Secrets TCR Scandal is a prime example of what has happened got them totally unawares absolutely such cases take expeditious hardest possible action yes
If you don’t do that your culture will suffer you will so these are the three or four things I think I’d like to pass absolutely I fully agree again so sir uh the Japanese corporate culture is often held as example in the world but the thing about the Japanese corporate
Culture is that it is firstly demands lifelong loyalty from the employee but at the same time the corporate also commits to providing a lifelong guarantee to the person it’s a very hard work culture where you require a lot of dedication loyalty it’s very rigid hierarchical seniority driven a lot of
Rules but at the same time group dynamics are very important and they have this concept of Kaizen which is one of continuous Improvement and because of that Japan’s industry has flourished we all know the examples Toyota and Sony Etc do you think that the Japanese culture most closely Japanese corporate
Culture most closely resembles the military culture we are talking about and do you see it as a role model for the Indian corporate culture uh to be really honest I’ve never given this a very deep thought right sir but as you were speaking right uh I I I felt that yes this corporate
Culture closely approximates or mirrors to some degree the culture that we have in the Army right sir with one little caveat yes sir in the Army everybody is driven not by the country or a larger idea right they’re driven by their regiment they’re driven by a battalion
Perhaps the Japanese are driven by the companies I don’t know very similarly because they put company first before the employee exactly that’s their motto that the company comes first and the employee comes So to that extent I would say it really mirrors uh you know the Army culture
Because we do everything for our Battalion our regiment right that is our thing and because everybody’s doing it for his Battalion regiment on the whole the is additive kind of adds up to a lot that addtive and I would say yes maybe our corporate culture has something to
Learn from them right I I Japanese have been held as an example for long but if we already have the same thing in our military that means we are capable of we are capable of it we capable we should be able to draw the right lessons from
Both Corners we are capable to our benefit absolutely because that will show you how these qualities are implemented in the corporate side you see the fact that Japanese are able to hang on to their companies or their employees or their teams for ages sometime you know they work for
Generations same thing happen in the German Auto industry by the way where people work sometime for Generations Generations uh it puts a lie to a very lazy answer that we are used to giving in India that everybody basically works for money yes sir it’s a lazy answer it’s a lazy
It’s a lazy answer because it is an unexamined answer it kind of lets the HR and the leadership of the hook if you’re giving money people are working otherwise what do we do people work for money money is important but there are many more things which are important
When you build a culture that is caring where people’s identities are taken care of where people are acknowledged for who they are where people are loved I would go on to use that word I think you will have more permanence uh and less very interesting this is just coming to me
Off the cuff a very interesting example could be to see the PSU culture versus the private sector culture although psus are now in the decline and they’re not very uh new psus are not thriving right now but I believe psus at one time would have been culturally very very you know
Close to what you want in the sense that they had the fraternity the family bonding they used used to have um many of those traits which we are now looking for in the private sector do you feel that the problem especially the older psus yeah probably you’re right uh
Probably you’re right about the older psus the problem with the PSU today or the this kind of uh you know uh entities is that the culture is not as dynamic as in the they lost out on many other accounts on many other accounts and the reason why they’ve lost out is culture
Is what collectively works for us what we perceive to be working for us so if I’m going to get a pension or I’m going to get a pay and I don’t really have to produce something phenomenal well that will become the culture one example which I comes to my mind is something like
ISRO break that’s an outlier an outlier it’s a breakout what is a in terms of uh and it has always been admired for its culture more than anything else I fully agree with that I think we should all admire the women scientists over there their achievements the way they share
The the the glory that they have achieved way everyone is taken on board the way they have done scientific breakthroughs I mean isra is one very very great example we have I fully agree with that I fully agree with that I think isra is a admirable culture to to
Talk about and to learn from yes sir coming to now a purely military question sir the nature of warfare is changing a lot in the world you have just seen the examples even in the recent uh Israel Hamas outbreak or the Russo Ukrainian War drones have gained a lot of
Importance you have remote Warfare uavs robotics uh you have cyber um attacks the direct involvement of boots on the ground although Ukraine is a mix of both but at least it’s changing over the world and the on the other side also your enemy is changing so it’s no longer
About armies belonging to nation states it’s more about fighting gry Zone Warfare organizations which have a lot of access you have private military contractors with the US users in a big way you had the Blackwater thing in Iraq you had uh Wagner in Russia yeah so you’re
No no longer fighting on the same plane also right and you’re fighting a very different War today so how will this impact how do you see the culture of the Indian army or the Indian Armed Forces evolving over the next decade or two okay so there’s a there’s an interesting
Question and there is one element of warfare or one big element which seems to be shifting towards remote fighting and you know drones and so on and so forth where your physical involvement or your physical courage is not really being you know tested yes so it’s more
Of your ethical or your moral courage and you know all of that is being tested yeah having said that I do not foresee any circumstance right where the boots on the ground element right sir will completely disappear or will diminish to a degree that we don’t require any more
People to go and you know attack in the end and mop up so I think many elements of the culture must remain the way they are right but yes the jury is still out on the other issue right sir of what about the people for example you know
Were talking to me before the interview yes what about the people who are guiding drones from a distance yes sir and are still being so you are a pilot sitting 10,000 mil away and shoving bombs on a different country where you don’t even know you’re just given a
Target and a coordinate and yet you are a pilot yeah of ss you’re a pilot so so and you are a recognized military officer and you’re even being awarded in some cases but it’s but you’re taking zero risk there’s no risk right so how does that change the soldiers profile
And the culture then no certainly change of profile I think smart armies would uh ensure that people who do this kind of remote fighting have had the experience of putting boots on the ground first right you know so that you are clear about the not what it entails what it
Entails yes the ethics of it yes what exactly you hurting right you know otherwise world like collateral damage which are which in the indan Army are so often repeated they are so often warned against collateral damage yes sir will disappear for such people yes sir it just wouldn’t really matter right sir
Yeah another uh important question concerning our military culture is uh this whole uh recent uh developments related to our Colonial inheritance from the British Indian army so for example the Indian Navy just announced that we’ll do with batons and uh then they are thinking about refashioning mess uniforms and the
Same thoughts are now prevailing in the Army and the Air Force also the veteran Community has been quite agitated with these things because they feel that certain at least certain Colonial practices bind the Army very strongly and they are important cultural artifacts of ours which need to be preserved so what is
Your thought on it how do you see our Colonial inheritance and what’s happening today all right I was teaching in Staff College in Wellington and during one of the tutorials A student got up and asked me a similar question right he said why are we following the
British why are the British practices in the mess right why we are Indians right okay besides the fact I asked him uh if you were to Define what an Indian tradition is right or how exactly do We Dine for example to take it to a we have so many different Traditions anyway
Tradition which tradition are you going to follow besides that yeah the correct question the correct thing to question in this is are they really Colonial practices or have we now mastered them and owned it as our practices our practic is English a language of the British exactly or is it a English
Language Indian language we speak it better than them yeah who would say a country that has MP called Shashi who would say that English is not our language all right Cricket the englishman’s game right we’re thrashing everybody yes should we give it up and say Colonial practice practice I think
We should not throw the baby with the bath water right selectively you can decide that certain practices are not you know in tune with our present uh system for example you may feel uh the system of having only an officer’s mess and a J’s mess is not egalitarian enough
People are aspiring let’s have an NC’s mess instead of an ncu’s Club correct you know you can change you can change the system like that correct but to start changing just because we call it Colonial right would be laughable they’re not Colonial right that we cannot suffer from this kind of a
Thought right that somehow these belong to someone else right they don’t we own it they ours we own Cricket We own English we own technology we own it what are we going to do call these as Colonial absolutely yeah I see your point I see your point another similar
Uh impact is coming from the consequences of of implementation of the AGN scheme so the the thought there is that these are soldiers who are coming with a very limited aim they know that they are going to serve for a very short period of time and uh with the training
Is also being Cil the training period they have no time to form a bond in our regimental system works over time you know you em a person into your regiment and then gradually he owns takes ownership of you know being part of that but the agir is very clear he’s leaving
In 4 years yes baring 25% of them so one sees a major impact of the agnir on our Army’s culture down the line it may not be visible today but definitely in 5 years 10 years time that impact will be seen so again what are your thoughts on
That okay so first of all uh let me begin with a caveat that I’m a Believer right I never cynical about new things being tried out right to that extent I would say if poers have decided to do something new right all right let’s give it time let’s see how this works right
Uh I think the real reasons are also the problem is it has not been tried in an experiment it has been rolled out AB across the board I’m absolutely coming if that point yeah this this is the thought that resonates with me right you see um probably one of the important
Reasons why agir came in is because we don’t want to have a large pay and pension bill right which is a very reasonable valid even that point has been debated whether there’s actually going to be an not so we can debate that but having said that what my hope is this jury is
Out we don’t know what will happen four years we don’t what my hope is that for the first four years all these people who have come in right will compete to be retained they will follow the culture and the rules and the traditions of the army right all right right after that
The ones who are absorbed in any case will remain in the Army right right the people will go out will go go out true and I think our culture our leadership our Traditions are strong enough to take care of a small bunch of people who are there in the in every Battalion right
And to mold them at least for those four years okay that’s my hope that’s my fondest hope right uh having said that like I said the jury is out out uh I absolutely agree with you I wish we had done a little CH experiment right and
Seen But now that it’s there with us correct sir let’s push on so so finally uh towards the end I have already mentioned to my viewers that the thing that impacted me most was the quality of the stories in the book in fact it is the stories which bring this book alive
More than anything else whether someone draws a lesson or not to me is not important but the stories are important so why don’t you share with us at least one story from the book all right so you’re right uh you know the way I selected the stories were I didn’t want
Any par chakra type of stories right because it’s it’s not what the best Among Us do which makes the culture culture is what everybody does what everybody does in a corporate company as you walk in is the receptionist it’s the person who serves you water it’s the
Manager it’s the MD it’s everybody all right so I wanted Every Man’s stories yes but which are stirring inspiring yes and you mentioned that you know you know your eyes may well up reading it they did let me tell you my eyes will up when I read them again absolutely okay
Because they are really stories the stor are like that your yeah so uh I don’t want to take time telling a big story let me give you a a very short story that will tell you how deep is the culture of leadership in the Army okay
4th of June 1997 I was commanding this Battalion in uh jnk and by the way in this book I’m not telling my stories the other people’s stories AG but this is one I’m just going to recount yes sir and uh early morning the terrorist blew
Up one of my vehicles one major uh major moit wig and two jawans unfortunately died on the spot and one young officer leant Ravi lanan and two Javan were trapped in that mangled steel right there was so much explosive that the vehicle went up beyond the eucalyptus
Trees took two tumbles in the air and crashed against the gravel okay instantly doing this damage now the militants who were sitting 200 M away on the hill started firing on the vehicle trying to kill whoever is remaining so Ravi loganathan who was badly injured and bleeding he was firing all over the
Place trying to my vehicle was about 10 minutes away and when we heard this blast naturally we turned around and people said don’t go in a vehicle go on foot because there may be more improvised explosive devices like that yes so here is the scene there are about
20 of us running towards the firing we are all carrying our AK-47 including me as a CO I was 10day Old Co and uh running next to me was a major now I’m sure those of the viewers who’ve seen army officers know that officers Colonels and above wear a red colored
Thing on their colar the collar dogs are red colored yes now this is not to be worn in operations correct because you’ll be identified from a distance you will be identified I was a new bridegroom I’d been SE only 10 days and I was wearing it so this major told me
He said sir you shouldn’t be wearing it we’ll get there somebody will all the were running were running somebody’s going to take a shot at you and there’ll be a casualty and you know what will happen so you shouldn’t be wearing it anyway I said yes I will take it off but
My mind was full of so much I had heard on the radio said that people have got killed and I was a CO I a young guy I was thinking about what next to do 200 M down the road still jogging on my left was a barber an army barber in
Uniform his name was ruplal Rupal tapped my shoulder and said can I have a a word with you and I said sure he said sir what that major said was absolutely right there’s no bravery in what you do wearing these red colored things is not even allowed you should not be wearing
It sir okay I said I know Rupal I’m going to take it off he said no no sir that’s not my entire advice okay what I was going to tell you is don’t take them off today okay even if you get killed because you know sir the men are
Watching you the soldiers are watching you they shouldn’t think just because two people die or three people die our coo gets shaken because you’re a leader don’t take them off said don’t take them off for three months okay I didn’t take off those tabs for three and a half
Years okay and I’m happy to report that I didn’t die uh but the Crux of the story is look at that fabulous stirring advice which you would expect as an MD coming from your CEO is coming to you from a barber who’s lowest on the Chain
One wonders if MD would take such an advice from his or some that a part I hope that MD reads this book and takes this advice but uh the fact is yeah uh and people used to ask me later on why are you wearing this and I said rup told
Me and I’m just sort of I’m going to honor him for 3 years let’s see what happens so that’s the story fantastic fantastic so so now we have a set of questions we call it rapid fire oh where you have to give us either a one word or
A one line answer MH and we make it quick all right and lead to the end of the interview so sir to begin your favorite military leader who exemplifies the highest standard of culture sir Med sure great uh the military course school or institution you think best in Grain
Culture defense Services sta college right which military do you admire the most apart from the Indian military US Army US Army I worked with them and I think they’re pretty good right which Indian company do you admire the most aha there would be several so I could start with of course all Tata
Group for example right is one infosis okay um then there is uh Kosar Brothers I’ve known them closely right I admire them and there are a couple of companies I have worked with so let me give a shout out to them Ric Consultants pleas uh they are a leading PMC company okay
And dynamic cables who adviser I am so great there you go great what is the strongest cultural trait amongst Indian companies or Indian people in general our strongest cultural trait the strongest cultural trait I think is that we are more relational okay you talking about the corporate companies either way
Either corporate or people people basically deep inside are more relational they they want to be relational right okay that’s how we brought up right that’s what’s the middle class culture is right okay we are not we are not purly transactional even a stranger comes to your house
You’re going to take care of that person somehow we tend to lose it yeah when we start going into a job yes and by the same logic what is our weakest cultural tradeit either as people or as corporates I think we don’t mean what we
Say say okay uh NAD Chri a leading you know intellectual had written a book called the continent of C okay and there was a chapter in that in which he said uh it was an advice to the Western guys he said Indians are like they have two
Faces of Janus Janus is a Greek Greek god one the side and on the other side yes he said we don’t mean what we say in fact this sorry I’m interrupting this cultural trait is even distinguished between North Indians and the west and the South probably is feeling is the
North Indians have bigger double face you might say than I I fully agree and and you know I don’t say this I don’t say this in a disparaging way God knows it has just got into our system so somebody comes to your house you’ll ask
So and you know he’s not going to come and that guy knows he’s not going to come but he say words don’t mean to us the same thing as they mean in the west right we are not fourth right if if you say if you call someone and says Gana he says I
Don’t think I’ll be able to come you feel insulted well he’s telling you the truth okay so I think words must carry more weight with us and on a on a side note then do you think corruption is a cultural trait is it a cultural thing or not no I
Don’t think corruption is a cultural tra otherwise I if it was I don’t think I’d be praising the Army sitting here right the next question sir the war regimental walk of the bhar regiment there are since we have two types of troops okay so we say
Two okay and bangal so there are two different us because there is uh we’ve had traditionally truths from what is now biar right and adasis from jarand and other places right sir great uh is this the only regiment in the Indian army having two war cries or are there
Others no I’m sure there are others sure there more than one right your favorite personal weapon 10 okay or a laptop while you in the service well I think AK-47 AK-47 was fabulous right you know had other General say this after using 7.62 and 5.56 for which I was a trial officer by
The way I spent time in isapur Rifle Factory when the weapon was still being tested right but AK-47 was fabulous it did the job it had to do at at 200 M or 300 M or less it was fabulous great your favorite food Chinese probably okay very
Dangerous risky yeah very risky and I must tell you that it has become such a joke in my family that for the last couple of years we’ve never had Chinese food because everyone says dad’s going to say Chinese so let’s let’s get northan let’s get North Indian yeah
Right and your fondest or your most challenging tenure wi in service jnk okay the when I commanded the Battalion right it was the most fabulous time head and I’m not saying it as a cliche right we did well the unit did very well we were the most successful uh Contra
Insurgency Battalion for 2 years right as told to me by core commanders right uh I did fine right uh the reason why I did well or I or not why I did well the reason why I call it my you know best tenure is this when I was going to
Command right I was full of doubts okay I talked about leadership and stuff all my life but you know there is a part of your personality which you are not aware of which can only come out under pressure right right right and I had not been put under that pressure of seeing
People die correct of having to fire at somebody and seeing somebody’s brains fall out correct or taking decisions which put your men in you know so when I landed there a very wise Brigade commander who interviewed me he said he said I don’t know how whether you’ll do
Well or you’ll do badly or you’ll do like average I don’t know but at the end of this tenure you’ll discover who you are right very insightful it’s a so it is a it’s a journey of Discovery where you finally get validated for your thoughts on leadership of your ability to take
Decisions of uh dealing with other human beings of empathy uh which you cannot have unless you’ve been put under pressure it’s a bit like saying I’ve never taken a bribe no one’s given you a bribe so far unless you you don’t you don’t know whether
You’ll accept it or not so that is that selfis discovery for me yes was extremely extremely important and it was 3 and a half years so I cherish that time thank you sir it was a pleasure and an honor to have you on the show and we once again would recommend to everybody
That this is the book you should be reading for the stories that it contains for the inspiration you can draw for it the soldiers who have done so much for us it’s all there and thank you General Bali for having written it thank you
Very much I I just want to make one p comment before we wind up so you know fortunately there are about 10 people who have endorsed the book right mostly from business world right and uh and general Malik of course and shakar Gupta of the
Print uh you know the one I cherish the most out of these this is right here on top uh top of the book here subo Baki who was the founder of M tree a highly successful company I didn’t know I don’t know Sao Baki from Adam somebody gave me his
Email ID I wrote to him and he said said I will consider endorsing your book provided I like it okay and provided I read the whole book right so I sent him the entire manuscript right it delayed our launch okay but I waited the day he
Finished reading the book he wrote me an email and I’m going to quote almost word to word that evening I got an email from him it said I wish I had your life I wish I had written this book okay he has written good books I he’s author
He has and in fact this is quoted here yes he said in so many words yes he said forget management right this is a master storyteller’s work yes it is you know so coming from someone like that I mean I’m not trying to thumb my back uh I would
End as op story storytelling is something my family has accused me for all my life you are just a story teller so I wish I really cherish that great sir great thank you and for coming on the show and we are so happy that we had
This talk and J hind thank you page j h
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