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Episode welcome to the oldfashioned Masonic podcast we talk all things free masonry while drinking an oldfashioned I’m Brian I’m Alex folks we are going to talk about a controversial subject and we typically avoid controversy on the podcast I’m really excited to get into this one yeah so we’re going to talk
About internet lodges a reality or pure blasphemy so let’s kind of talk to where this surface so um any folks that find us kind of through Facebook there’s a great page it’s called a past Master’s thought uh it’s Facebook page and this topic surface um right worful dway
Marshall that’s his page he does uh he does a great job there so yeah he it’s great stuff you should definitely go to the site um so the topic came up you know should the decision to move um or include Masonic Lodge meetings into the 21st century by allowing some online
With some uh secured meeting access be discussed and uh so that’s kind of what started there’s a nice long thread and then obviously we’re going to talk about a lot of stuff we don’t know a lot about other jurisdictions we know enough to be dangerous about the jurisdiction where
We’re in which is Kansas so you know and that’s the only jurisdiction that we’re qualified to talk about and is right yeah so we’re going to talk about we’re going to have a kind of a little debate if you will on the need and if we think
What internet lodgic should be I think it’s going to probably trip some of you out here um and this is all assuming that it doesn’t violate uh the landmarks of your jurisdiction so I’m gonna throw some factors out for you guys to consider and then uh Alex and I who is
You know the the most ritualistic of the two of us I you know I not that I’m anti for sure I can hold my own um but but he he is just as a as a history major he’s definitely more much more of the ritualistic so I would say traditional
Okay I’ll go with that well that Segways us to the some factors to to consider our first one is uh tradition uh some may argue that if we put some of our stuff online it could dilute it um another factor to consider is accessibility uh with online meetings or
Some aess it gives our members uh uh ability to participate that may have some physical disabilities live far away they’re Aging in the military other things another Factor to consider security and privacy can we if we were to go this direction can we make that can we adopt something that would make
It secure enough to protect the secrets of of masonry um factor to consider another is a quality and engagement um online uh meetings you know it it may affect the quality of the internet uh interaction and engagement of the members not to mention the quality of the
Internet and the quality of the internet that so which leads to Tech technological infrastructure so The Lodges if they’re going to do that they’re going to have to make sure one they have super highs speed internet because you don’t want to just screw up the experience and the Really the the
Last uh well another factor to consider is your bylaw regulations with your landmarks in your jurisdiction and and maybe there’s going to be some hybrid approach that we’re going to talk about I do believe uh I I know that there’s a jurisdiction where this is going to be
On the Grand Lodge floor this year um at least one and I think in the next five years some sort of something this will be a topic of discussion and no matter where it goes whether what we agree one way or the other our jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of
Kansas whatever is presented and voted on we support our our jurisdiction we don’t always have to like it right but we we’ll support it and yeah it’s the great thing about our fraternity is that you know um you know one of the guys that I have immense amount of respect
For right wor howerin uh you know going back to Affinity lodes um you know I’ve got a great deal of respect for this man he was extremely passionate about Affinity lodges and bringing them into existence and I disagree so let me get our listeners up to what an Infinity
Lodge not all jurisdictions have these so an affinity Lodge in our jurisdiction is a lodge of brothers that have I’m just really going to dub this down but a very similar interest sure so the the I think the first Affinity Lodge was Justice yeah I believe so and then
Followed by um the uh motorcycle group three runners maybe something like something like that so the Affinity Lodge as Alex Goes to talk about this Justice Lodge started as a a a lodge of Masons that had they were either a police uh Sheriff prosecuted attorneys judges anything that could be
In now it’s expanded a little bit um but your take on Affinity lodges was and or is X yeah so I I believe that a a lodge of Masons exists to make Masons and if you’re not doing that or you don’t have the desire to do that you’re
Not you’re not actively trying to do that then you are not fulfilling the the basic uh you know uh reason for your existence um I I kind of view Affinity lodges if you’re familiar with Shrine and and the the uh various clubs that are in the shrine uh I kind of put those
Two in the same in the same Club um you know it uh with the clubs in the shrine you know they’re not their own individual temples they’re they’re clubs within subps yeah subgroups uh and I’m I’m totally on board with that I’m totally on board you know with the idea
Of Brothers similar interest getting together as Masons and and doing things like that but if your purpose of existing is just to get together with other Masons uh that have similar interests then I think that the the the uh it’s not your flavor it’s not it’s
Not my flavor so let me give you a different spin on that when Affinity of Lodgers first came out and Justice was the first one my initial thought was what just a bunch of cops getting together they’re excluding us who was me when they doing in they’re eating Donuts
Yeah what are they doing eating donuts and talking about tickets which is was all a bogus thought now my opinion on Affinity loges has changed immensely I think we have so many people that Jo we’re so focused on joining joining joining that we forget about the people that are here that are
Leaving leaving leaving I like an option for a brother if I I haven’t my your my Masonic experience hasn’t been fulfilled at insert Lodge name however I went over on a visit to insert Affinity Lodge name and I just felt at home I love Masons having options when
You have options it keeps you here because your Mason your Freemasonry and my Freemasonry is different and I love that option sure so yeah and you know what I’m going to agree with you 100% 100% there’s nothing wrong with what you said uh the only thing that I would add
Is that you call it a club and not a LOD okay I’ll go with that so there we go somebody somebody go somebody go after the Affinity clubs so I’m going to talk about some pros I’m GNA highlight some pros and cons and we’re going to talk
This through I’m sure you can tell by how this is going who will probably be the pro and the con here so and it might it actually might be different than what you think if you’re just going off of age so let’s talk about some pros of doing an internet
Option Lodge now I would propose if I were proposing something today it would be a hybrid Approach at all I don’t think ever should it just be a straight internet Lodge I think my masonry for this internet Lodge would be an experience where lodges opened in insert
City or state and brothers who can’t come to the lodge can join in at that meeting remotely so here would be my Pros on that uh the biggest thing is increased accessibility right uh we’ve got a lot of members that want to participate or say they want to participate but they’ve
Got excuses right but those with physical disabilities hey our membership is older our average age I think in Kansas is 6768 and let me just tell you I’m quite certain at 67 and 68 you don’t get around the way that you do hell my driving at night’s a little bit
Different now and I’m not 68 then you got aging guys that have moved far away um those that might have three young ones at home and maybe some of our uh uh service members that are abroad another thing to think about on the pros before
We get to the con it just gives a LOD some flexibility to accommodate some busy schedules and traveling uh Alex I travel with our vocation and there are times when I’m sitting in a hotel room and I know there’s a lodge at least having the option to jump on to a lodge
Meeting might be interesting um another thing to consider is cost savings uh moving the meeting online um could maybe really change the format of what building you’re in I could argue that there’s going to be some other cost when you have to get the high speed internet and do some things
That you do right now is it a right I attack oh you oh he’s attack he attacks so we’re gonna go back so where what are you attacking first in increase accessibility CH choose your hard you know life is hard uh doing things is hard uh you know uh you know I doing
Your taxes is hard uh going to work every day is hard uh going to Lodge is sometimes is is not as easy as it should be sometimes it’s hard sometimes it’s hard I just don’t want to get out of my house dog on it but you’ve got you’ve
Got uh if that’s what’s important to you then you go you know uh in in where I was raised AAA Lodge Number Nine you know we’ have guys that that would uh you know come in off of working in the fields all day uh after a long you know
12 13 14 hour day and and come into Lodge you know that’s not when there weren’t two working income households sure yeah that Chang I would argue there’s a little bit of difference there yeah yeah so because you know Mom can be at home take care of the kids dad’s work
All day go let them have his fun at lodge so but but you’re right I’m I’m gonna bait I’m gonna bait Alex into something that I know it’s it’s gonna get him talking so to me a LOD meeting is a meeting okay you go there you open
The lodge yep talk up you do your consent agenda if you’re doing the right thing bills um minutes whatnot yeah you should have some Masonic Ed uh if not boo for you um have a little bit of experience and get out of there in an
Hour sure right I go to Lodge for the camaraderie before and after sure and sometimes Giggles in between you know but what creates that camaraderie and and what makes our fraternity special is the things that happen at beginning at the end of Lodge that make us different
Than the Kanas club that make us different than the uh you know Ran’s Club whatever you call that that’s what separates us that’s what makes us special okay um you know when I’m I’m a proponent of you know coming up with a list of things
That are okay to talk about outside of a tille meeting and and and opening that floor up uh you know we have open meetings uh you know and and I think certainly there should be um the ability to to broadcast that away uh but you know our fraternity is is something
Special um you know and the things that we do in our in our uh lodges to to open our lodge or to close our lodge the the symbolism that we have uh in in our lodge is what makes us special uh which makes us different um and and brings uh something of into
Uh I’m kind of rambling on here what if I’ll go with it so what what if your your job is sent you to St Louis for three months for training yeah okay I would love I would love the opportunity to sit and Lodge with my St Louis
Brothers so that would be that would be that would be awesome I see what he did there that was nice so let’s assume your your company well played my your company I wasn’t prepared for that your company sends you to an area for training and there’s no Lodge within an hour and
You’ve been and you’ve been training all day wouldn’t it be nice to be able to say you know what the symbolism that I’m missing and the opening and closing I just miss the way that doc Renner opens that Lodge I can’t wait to see it online
Isn’t it a nice option you know I would say you don’t even like the op sure you know what I would say to that is is the old adage is the distance makes the heart grow fonder uh you know there are things that it’s special because you
Can’t do it everywhere you can’t you you there there are certain situations there there are certain things that need to be in place for you to for you to have a meeting a tille meeting with Brothers um I don’t believe it has to be done um you
Know in your Lodge room you know the first meeting of Lawrence lodge number six didn’t happen in a building it happened down by the river um where they met together they they held Lodge out in open air uh you know and that could be considered controversial uh but uh you
Know but if you got permission to move your Charter it’s all of a sudden not absolutely oh you’re talking about if there’s a cow and or E dropper sure uh but uh you know if you take the proper precautions then you know but you but you still have the things there that
Make that meeting special uh make make it different make it not you know the Cowboys and cowg girls Association of America yeah so let’s uh let’s talk about another uh I’ll kind of close the pros before we kind of dig into the cons a little bit more
My my I guess my final statement would be why we need to do this um a lot of our younger members when you PLL them they think that we should be embracing technology more and and it doesn’t say embracing technology more meaning internet Lodge I’m not saying that and
And I would argue that we have with social media and websites and I I talked to some of our our guys this podcast is a great example well go back to the website we had when we start first started doing websites 20 years ago you had some older Masons that were losing
Their mind oh you’re giving our secet what damn secret are we given on the web I mean I’d arue if you didn’t do that I wouldn’t have found masonry because that’s what I damn did I Googled yeah so I think we have to be adaptable I don’t
Know to I am also will never be a proponent to doing degree work online that’s that’s to me that’s a absolute noo because that would definitely put you in a position to violate your obligation and we know why right so let’s talk about some cons I mean from the traditional and ritual standpoint
You definitely hate it um I think you would argue that that it reduces some camaraderie um I I would argue the contrary gives me an opportunity to see my brothers that I haven’t been able to see for whatever reason if I’m sick aing whatnot you know another great way to do
That is to call them it is or to FaceTime them it is great way to how do you so let’s let’s talk about FaceTime you think we should be able to FaceTime him in lunch no it’s I mean I know who I’m talking to yeah all right I don’t
Think so either so I I I just wanted to get you to go I know a lot of contribut kind of the security and privacy concerns and all of us now have done some sort of a zoom or go to meeting or whatnot and you can you can shut people
In and out of that mut them and whatnot so I think you could keep it pretty quiet um I know that on zooms and go to meetings you can also hit a button where they can’t record it but that doesn’t stop them from putting the camera up but
That also doesn’t stop the person from doing it in Lodge anyway if they’re going to do it because I see lots of phones in the pockets and those could be on the whole time but we have to trust our brothers to do the right thing at
The end of the day um I think some of the obstacles in some jurisdictions could be uh the landmarks there could be some issues with landmarks and uh um there there’ll be some there’d be some Hy hyper ch es and I and I think I’m going to kind of throw a couple points
Here before we kind of tighten it up is this ultimately the decision if a lodge jurisdiction ultimately that decision I think everyone should discuss it can we agree sure yeah open to discussion and that’s one of the cool things about our lodges that we do and I think it the decision
Should made be made through some sort of a democratic process even though there’s not a democracy in Lodge that Master can slap that gavel but I think healthy discuss questions need need to be have had right so members should have the opportunity to uh voice your opinions
And votes you know good bad and the other good bad or the other um but so let’s say insert Lodge name they had a meeting and they said you know what we think there’s a need um here BEC because of x from there I would believe that they would have to
Take it to their grand lodge their grand secretary make sure they’re not violating any landmarks and then put it up for some sort of a bylaw proposal um I don’t think anywhere it would pass the first time no I think that’s one of those things that would um that the
Points would have to be reintroduced and um you know some people here’s somebody on this podcast is listen say well you know just a few more funerals that solve that problem well here’s the issue initially when we started this you would have thought the old guy was against but
The kids against it so he there’s a lot of funerals are going to happen before the kids vote for so I don’t including my own right right well so because his masonry he has a look that he wants it to be and I have a look so and I think
That’s the one thing we have to remember is although we’re all Masons what we think our masonry should look like there’s a contrast there is and it doesn’t mean it’s wrong yep right um and I just I think I’m G to leave Alex with his closing point my closing point
Before that would be this I think masonry for it to be here in another 200 years has to adapt some way the way we’ve been doing it now isn’t working and it’s not all because we’re staunch and and not moving there’s some other factors there but I would
Argue if we don’t make some changes as Albert Einstein would say the definition of insanity is to do the same things over and over and expect different results that that would be my statement but I I give the final words to my young protagonist or antagonist you know I I think that this
Is a great discussion to I I really do I think that you know there are plenty of people out there that are you know wanting more engagement um through the web um and I certainly think that there’s a place to meet in the middle what what I would caution is
That this is a very slippery SL I think that once you open this up um it’s the floodgates are going to open you know there’s it’s it’s not going to be uh we allow uh you know Lodge meetings you know or specific things then we’re going
To add more onto it and then by the time that you know I have gray hair uh the lodge is going to be nothing like the lodge that I that I went through when I was a kid I I understand what you’re saying about adapting and we need
To adapt I also think that we need to ReDiscover the original TS of our fraternity um you know just because you have a thousand member Lodge doesn’t mean that your Lodge is a is a good Lodge um you know it it depends on the the the people um and and what you what
You do in your in your Community for each other um for uh yourself um it’s not about membership it’s about creating uh and and supporting good men and making making each other better um so I I would say that there’s a caution there um I would say that there’s things that
That make our fraternity special uh and you know we have adapted over time you know look at look at the ciphers um that you know go into to your your local Lodge and look at the library and look at the original ciphers that they used uh um when your Lodge was founded I
Guarantee you you’re gonna have a lot a very hard time reading old single letters absolutely um you know there’s there’s been all sorts of uh you know different changes that have been made um the internet has changed everything um it and good and bad right good and the internet wouldn’t give us
The podcast yeah sure absolutely uh but at the same time you know we’re respectful of the secrets and and the things that make our our fraternity special we would we wouldn’t get into that on the podcast yeah um and so you know what attracted me to the fraternity
Was that something special um and that’s not something that you can get from a screen um that’s not something that that you can get um remotely you know as somebody that that works in in digital Health uh you know promoting you know being able to to do uh doctor
Visits over over the internet I still think that this is different agree and agree uh you know it it’s a slippery slope and that’s that would be my my concern and and my caution uh to to you know this conversation moving forward so what say you put it in the
Comments is Al an old fogy is he stuck in his ways or is the old guy the progressive bird going to solve a problem for masonry put us in the comment because you probably give us a both you’re both wrong there should be something in the middle but thanks for
Watching the old fashion M podcast cheers thanks Alex what did you think of this episode to continue to promote Freemasonry hit that like button now don’t forget to smash that subscribe button and give us a comment the oldfashioned Masonic podcast where real Masons talk free masonry don’t forget to like subscribe
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