The Muslim Malcom – Black and Islamic Identity of Malcolm X

Okay so firstly thank you so much um to everybody who um obviously have attended this is if this is your first um session where the resistors reading group uh we had a temporary Break um and we’re just reconvening um our malcolmx series um today’s session is entitled the Muslim

Malol understanding his black and Islamic identity um what we’re going to do first and foremost to just go around the room and if everybody can kind of introduce themselves a little bit so in the discussion segment if every anybody wants to address anyone else it is kind

Of a lot easier to do so um my name is naria um and I’m one of the sort of I’m essentially the chair today um and we have other sisters in the resistors uh reading group some of the sisters unfortunately weren’t able to attend um

And one will be running a bit late um but we have Ayan so is it okay we start off here and then we go that way yeah so I’m and I work as a science editor um but yeah interested in um I’m Kiku and um I’m learning various things going to very groups

Thanks okay so can we start with you my name is Zar I’m working in HR for f and I’m also interested thank you my name is I’m from France and I am e-learning assistant um and I like the Afric my name is I’m fren I’m here since one week

Brilliant sorry for my English no worries at all thank you for okay no worries if yeah that’s fine but you can hear me right yeah that’s fine student Brant thank you and fak um essentially who’s come today and do you want to introduce you can and then I I’ll just

Introduce you essentially so khabib aand is a British born writer and historian of Nigerian descent khabib um graduated from Kingston University with a first class ba with honors degree in business and film studies after his graduation he traveled to Cairo um Egypt to study Arabic Islamic law and Islamic history

At Alazar High School uh high school and University he ALS um he is also the author of five published books uh on blackness in Islam Muslims in Brazil and afro Arab sexuality um so essentially today um brother khabib will be um exploring Malcolm’s black and Muslim identity after embracing true Islam um

Or rather Orthodox Islam U malol malcol ‘s dedication to the truth is something which we should all aspire to a man of moral discipline Malcolm was a firm defender of black um people against white supremacy and was willing to sacrifice his life for his beliefs his conversion to Islam did not stop him

From tirelessly working to destroy the human cancer of racism and lift the self-esteem of black people immensely proud of his African Heritage as well as his Islamic religion um for Malcolm there was no contradiction in being black and Muslim so some of the questions in which uh brother khabib

Will explore in this uh segment um session today um first will be why did Malcolm’s conversion to Islam not prevent him from fighting for the plights of black people um why is Malcolm’s Islamic belief often ignored by pan-africanists why do many non-black Muslims ignore Malcolm’s black and pan

Africanist ideology and why did Malcolm believe that Islam can erase the human ccer of racism these questions were actually proposed by uh brother khabib himself um he’s looking to address these questions um so he decided to focus on these particular issues um just for the

Video is it okay if I just ask you to raise your voice a tiny bit is that okay yeah that’s fine okay brilliant and I’ll just hand it over to brother Habib thank you very much good evening everyone thank you for coming and thank you L for

Inviting me um is it loud enough is that loud enough and most importantly can you understand what I’m saying sometimes I’ve got a habit of speaking a bit too fast um so if you’re not understanding anything I’m saying raise your hand and I’ll slow down breath and take a glass

Of water or something no worries just a little bit louder bit louder okay yeah I I mean as um Nadia said I mainly want to talk about Malcolm’s black and Islamic identity um but before I go into The Talk The Talk is I’m quite informal hopefully about 30 minutes um and I want

To explore some of the questions which Nadia mentioned and also hopefully with the question and answer or the discussion phase after I’ll give my talk I want to get some of your views as well because these are some of some questions which I kind of think about as well in

Terms of trying to understand Malcolm’s black and Islamic identity quick overview I’m sure most people are aware of who Malcolm is um for the purpose of this talk I’m mainly going to be focusing on the last year of Malcolm’s life life when people I mean Malcolm X obviously is a public figure

That is well renowned and well known um but there’s two malcolms in terms of what we see in the public on like YouTube and things like that there’s Mal there’s the malcolmx during when he was a minister um for the Nation of Islam black Muslim movement for 12 years and

There also and there’s also Mal also known asaj Malik shabaz after he converted embraced um true Islam or Islam um in 1964 up until um he was assassinated in 1965 I’m for the purpose of this talk I’m going to be focusing on the Muslim Malcolm meaning um Malcolm

After his conversion to Islam and how his views changed in terms of his understanding of race relations and even his ideology as well so I want to talk about that but in order to understand El Malik shabz you need to understand Mal x e malm x also in the Nation of Islam and

Some of his um beliefs or the beliefs of um the Nation of Islam one thing I wanted to do um before getting into the question I think it’s important um and obviously some of you can see from the notes is to Define some terms I think it’s very important to Define some

Terms that I’m going to be using today and the reason why I’m I’m explaining what these these terms mean is because people use terms differently to mean different things so the first term by by me using the word Islam or Sunni Islam or Orthodox Islam or quote unquote true

Islam I’m referring to the Orthodox religion of Islam that um the monotheistic Faith which is the the religion of the Muslims um established in the 7th Century by the Arabian Prophet Muhammad please be a pron him so when I use the word Islam Sun Islam Orthodox Islam or true Islam or cuz or

If you see some of these words in some of the speeches um that’s in the handout that’s what they that’s what it refers to okay um by Muslim when I use the word Muslim I’m referring to someone who follows Sun Orthodox Islam okay when I use the term black Muslim

I’m using that term referring to those who follow the nature of Islam um black nationalist sect and I think and the reason why I want to explain these different terms is because even when you read um Malcolm X’s book or even when you read anything during that period you

Hear when people a lot of times when people referring to the black Muslim they’re referring to the black Muslim sect which is not the same as Sunni Islam so I think that’s important that people you understand that and then I’m going to talk a little bit about the

Theology of the Nation of Islam and how it differs from the Theology of um Sunni or Orthodox Islam and then how and why that had an impact in terms of Malcolm’s um world view in terms of understanding race relations um the next ter Nation of

Islam also known as noi or the black or the black Muslim movement one thing also I want to point out um the last four chapters of of Malcolm’s autobiography from uh from out to 1965 you notice that when he’s because he’s talking about his transition from

When he was kicked out of the Nation of Islam to embracing Sun Islam um and then making the famous pilgrimage um to Mecca you notice that he he he refers to Nation of Islam as the Nation of Islam a lot right we know that Malcolm X the

Book was finished or completed by Alex Haley obviously he wrote the book with the assistance of Alex Haley um but if you were to listen to a lot of Malcolm X’s speeches after he made the pilgrimage to Mecca when he embraced Sun Islam he generally refer to Nation of

Islam as a black Muslim movement not the Nation of Islam itself and I mean my fa thoughts why there’s that difference again you you especially the last four chapters very rarely he refers to Nation of Islam as a black Muslim movement I think that’s May Alex Alex Haley use

Black Nation of Islam rather than using black Muslim movement one of the reasons why I think Malcolm X did not refer to Nation of Islam once he left as the Nation of Islam is because he didn’t want people to have this idea that the Nation of Islam is from Islam was part

Of Islam cuz they’re very different and which I’ll explain a little bit later in terms of Theology and whether they’re like true real Muslims okay so that’s just just a side note which I think maybe people should be aware of and that’s why in um a number of the

Speeches that I’ve printed some experts from you notice that he’s constantly referring to the Nation of Islam as a black Muslim movement as opposed to the Nation of Islam um what they self ident what they call the group itself and obviously the Nation of Islam is an exclusively black African-American C

Islamic sect proposing a a separate black nation was founded in 1930 by a man called wace far and uh the second leader was Elijah Muhammad from 1934 and also as we know it came to prominence under the influence of Malcolm X and his current leader is L farakhan now the nation of Islam’s

Beliefs or has changed somewhat since um since when Malcolm X was assassin 1965 but I’m mainly going to be talking about what were their views or their beliefs during his time okay so I’m not going to be talking about because again I’m not going to talk about what the nation of

Islam’s beliefs now cuz some of their beliefs will come more in in line with Orthodox Islam but I’m mainly talking about during um the ‘ 50s and 60s whil whilst malol was um trying to grow the group by black I’m referring to a member of a dark skinn people especially one of

African Australian or AB aborig descent I think that’s important especially nowadays where the term black is can be used politically referring to people are non-white for the purpose of this talk when I’m referring to black people I’m referring to people dark and complexion primarily from of African descent so I’m

Not using like political Blackness meaning that it can refer to anyone um who’s non-white racism I’m sure you understand what racism is um and again another thing I want to point out is by racism I’m referring to racism as in the belief that one race or ethnicity is superior

To another not institutional racism or or structural racism I think that’s important that people understand how I’m using this term because you might hear people nowadays that say uh a black person can’t be a racist or Muslim can’t be racist under the not that they’re incorrect is UN by that definition

They’re referring to racism meaning like structural racism or institutional racism and obviously in the white supremacist country black people are the minority and Muslims who are also the minority they can’t be institutionally racist so but I’m not using that definition I’m using the definition of racism when you hear racis I’m referring

Or when you hear me maybe say that Malcolm X was a racist or the nation Islam group was racist I’m referring to the belief that one race or ethnicity is superior to another and and that can happen and that that that’s for black people white people whatever it’s not

Just specifically for white people okay um and you’ve got the definition of colorism which I’m sure people know what that is and white supremacy the belief that one that the white that white people the white race is superior to all other races especially black race and therefore they should dominate them

Black nationalism by black nation I’m referring to the advocacy of the national civil rights of black people again by black people referring to those of African descent I think it’s important that people understand that I’m not referring to political Blackness um and just on a side note

This is something I me I think yesterday when I was compiling these notes um I I think Jay-Z’s song was playing and I remembered yeah don’t ask me why how but this is I why this is um important and why I wanted to Define these clear terms um the track was

Heaven I don’t know if anyone’s heard of it and he was referring the song is with Justin Timberlake um some people look at me one my JC in the song in the first verse he said um arm leg leg arm head and something like that God’s body right now

Has anyone heard of the 5% as Nation no I just read about sorry just read about it you just read about okay so the 5% n the 5% nation is very is is a prominent group in um African-American communities today they were established in 1963 their leader was a gentleman

Called Clarence 13x who was a former member of the Nation of Islam and he was also a former student of malet after he left the Nation of Islam in 1964 in 1964 um he set up this group called The 5ers also known as the nation of gods

And Earth um and the 5% nation where they believe that amongst the population um 10% of people know that but they want to um they don’t want to Enlighten the rest of 85% of the population and 5% know the truth and they’re trying to teach people Empower people about the truth of the

World and things like that right so this group was an offshot of that the Nation of Islam and there’s a lot of number of prominent um well-renowned African-American musicians and um and uh personalities who are 5ers and they um self-identify as Muslim and again by them call them themselves Muslim I’m not

Referring to to like Sunni Islam so when you might hear that and that’s again the reason why I’m defining these terms because when you hear Muslim especially if someone says it you have to understand what they mean and what their ideology is or what their theology is now the 5%

Group um they believed um that um the black man was God incarnate similar to the Nation of Islam the Nation of Islam they believed um the original leader wellis Willis far was God incarnate um and they believe that Elijah Muhammad was the messenger of God of Allah Allah the Arabic word for the

One God now um the Nation of Islam Clarence 13x he disagreed with the nation of Islam’s teachings because he believe that the true go God should be a real black man I because um well his father and was mixed very similar to um Elijah Muhammad he

Was he was a mixed Heritage so and Clarence 13x he was a qu a true black person he believed that for God to the true black man I mean the true true God true God has to be a real black man which is himself and everyone else and

Every other black person kind of thing what was um Elijah Muhammad’s ethnicity do you know it was apparently he was partly Asian or something was yeah part I heard it’s partly Asian as well yeah partly Asian but obviously in America he’ll be considered to be black because

Of the whole One Drop right but where Clarence 13x um he differed with Elijah Muhammad the nation of is Islam was because he believed that the real like the true black man is God so he believed every black person potentially can be God okay now he then called himself Allah the

Father now again from a Orthodox Sunni Islam perspective this is heretical this is not Islamic at all but again they’ve used these they’ve adopted these terms that’s why they sto Islamic and it’s important when you hear this or read this you understand obviously their ideology okay now um they believe that

Allah is an acronym for arm leg leg arm head right now anyone who knows Arabic that is knows how unfort like way off true understanding of what Allah Allah is meaning the one God but that’s what they use as acronym in arm leg leg arm head meaning we are all

God okay so when I’m referring to and again the reason why I’m pointing this out the reason why it’s important when you’re hearing any of um the nation of Islams and this is why if you know no Malcolm X and um Malcolm a number of Malcolm X’s speeches actually most of

Them there’s about 27 that I’ve came across from when he um when he made the pilgrimage to Mecca to when he was assassinated in virt every single speech he clarified what his position was in terms of um not being a racist anymore and not believe in any form of separation or segregation

And his belief in terms of that he was Orthodox Muslim and he believed in Allah the one God the same God that the Christians believe and the Jews believe and I and that’s something that he stressed in virally every one of his SS even when he was talking to non-muslims

The reason being is so people can know clearly that his views not only view his views in terms of race relations has changed but theology has changed as well and one of the issues which which we’ll talk a little bit about um during the talk I know this been like a really long

Introduction but it’s it’s important because in terms of like the best interpreter or the best way of understanding Mal this from himself he said I mean the book itself number of his speeches if you wanted to know um or understand his identity is clear by listening to him himself but what it’s

Important is which malcol you’re listening to because of you’re listening to a lot of his early Works while he was um um part of the Nation of Islam and there the and a number of those speeches as when he was very fiery he was very um very charismatic even after when he

Became a sun Muslim but I’ve noticed that they’re the talks that are mostly circulated on social media and most people aware of right now again the danger the danger with that is that a lot of those views that he he was that he was speaking about he rejected them

After so if you really want to understand Malcolm you have to understand Malcolm the last year of his life not the first not the 12 years whilst he was a minister but that is important to understand the S Malcolm right again I know it’s a very very long

Introduction but it’s very important I can’t stress how important it is because there’s times when I’ve said um or spoken to people and what people might say um such and such as a Muslim or Malcolm bleed X Y and Z or when he or Malcolm was talking talking about black

People as Gods because they understanding when of God meaning Allah arm leg leg arm head right which is again from a Sunni perspective that’s totally um incorrect okay so that’s just an overview now in terms of understanding Malcolm’s black and Islamic identity like I said I

Mean the best person or the best way of understanding malcol is Malcolm himself and that’s why you can see what I’ve done I’ve um given which I read out a couple of excerpts from a number of his speeches which he he gave from when he left or during his time actually in

Mecca up until when um he was assassinated in February February the 21st 1965 now one of his speeches on February the 15th 1965 a week before he was assassinated in terms of how did he identify himself was he a and this something that people ask was he Muslim

First was he a a black person first was he an African first was he an American first he identified himself again this is the Muslim out I’m talking about as a Muslim first meaning someone who submits to the will of God a human being who believes ultimately in um the one

Supreme god and try to live his life accordingly and in terms of race and understanding race relation that was not to say that that was important but that was incidental part of his character his color but and which I’ll talk about a little bit later just the fact that um

He identified as being a Muslim first it doesn’t mean that he for go trying to fight for black people and African-Americans in particular which that’s something that was still part of his um you can say his purpose or he felt it was part of his purpose now he said

Um they know they they know that my calling in life as a Muslim number one I’m a Muslim for which I’m proud and then and that and no and in no way has that changed my being a Muslim My Religion Islam and again by Islam is

Islam Sun Islam and he talks a little bit in an interview which he conducted with Gordon Parts um a couple of days before he was assassin he was talking about race relations and in that interview there’s I’ve left excert notes for you to look at after

But he talks about even when he speaking to number of the African leaders so after when he made the pilgrimage to Mecca he went to different parts of West Africa and he met a number of like garan leaders Nigerian leaders and even like berbers in um North Africa and Algeria

Now a lot of the berbers are you could say um white it’s that very fair in complexion and also that dramatically changed his understanding in terms of race relations because he saw people that will be considered to be white in America but they were his brothers and

He talks about in his famous letter from Mecca that he received the same sort of hospitality and sincerity in terms of Brotherhood amongst these quote unquote white people as much as he did with the black Africans so that’s again dramatically his understanding and views of race relations so and this is something that

Again especially if you read the last couple listen to the speech the last I’ll say four months of his life he also started to speak less about black nationalism and and F not to say that again black National meaning of um advocacy of the civil rights of black

People is not to say that he wasn’t speaking about it anymore but in the in the um conversation he had with Gordon Parts he spoke about that racism is not just a black and white thing it’s not just between black and people and white people ultimately even when someone

Asked him four months before he passed away what do you think is the cause for racism in in America he said uh two three things ignorance breath and a sophisticated system where Americans miseducate people the education system and he says so just because you’ve got like colleges again

I’m paraphrasing here just because you got colleges and universities it doesn’t mean people are educated and that’s something that and that’s something that he wanted to um let people know that okay although his main fight was a what was for upliftment of black people and black empowerment he wasn’t solely fighting

For black people right and that’s something again I think that we should in terms to understand Malcolm’s identity first and foremost was a Muslim he was someone that considered himself a Muslim and also an African an African living in in America and that idea of being an African Living in America that

Came from his from his father more than anyone else and his father was a garite and and I don’t know if anyone’s I’m sure people have seen the famous film directed by Le um where um that phrase where um his father just I think in the beginning of the he’s talking

About that African uh Living in America Malcolm reiterated the same kind of sentiment whilst he was preaching for the Nation of Islam and also went in a number of interviews when he became a sun Muslim so it’s not like when he became an orthodox Muslim he forgot

About being African and it’s just I’m a Muslim and that’s it I don’t see race he did mention that although he’s a Muslim and he and Islam has caus him not to see um the person’s color meaning he tries to judge a person by the character he’s

A realist at the same time so the same way me saying because I am um you know I’m not sexist so I don’t see gender of course I see gender so obviously and that’s why naturally you treat well maybe that’s not right to say but you treat a woman differently compared to

How you treat a man I’m a traditionist in terms of respect not you treat them less but you really you see these things the same way in terms of the plight of black people in America is not the same as the plight of white people and that’s

Something which you was trying to to address and also to Enlighten um black people can everyone understand what I’m saying not speaking too fast with anything cuz again the most important thing is that you understand what I’m saying and hopefully you go away from you go away from this talk not only

And I want to hear some of your discussions after um but I want to kind of you know see where everyone’s at kind of thing um now I want to talk a little bit about okay so we know that Malcolm embraced Islam but one thing and again just like

Myself as as a Muslim and this something which kind of does and that’s why when I speaking to Nadia I wanted to kind of talk about this issue is um amongst the Muslim or I would say Arab and Asian mus predominant Arab and Asian Muslim communities I’ve noticed like a

Tendency when the topic of Malcolm X is spoken about um of course again Muslims will um whitewash Malcolm yeah I like she just very blunt I want it I’m trying to say a a nicer way of saying it but I got rep okay yeah okay

So she doesn’t hold back M so that and that was my issue it was this idea that people were try to whitewash Malcolm similar to when Muhammad Ali passed away this whole idea that he transcended race and race wasn’t an issue even though primarily he was primarily fighting for black people and

He was very Advocate and very vocal in that and was advocate for black people even whilst he was um whilst white people accepted him or maing America accepted him and it’s similar with Malcolm X as well like you and this is something that again I wanted to talk

About and hopefully um not really I want I wanted to hear other people’s thoughts about why that is cuz that’s something which I can’t really understand um so I want to say different people’s perspective maybe I’m just seeing I’m not seeing things or whatever but it’s just something that kind of bothers me

That when um you have a number of um predominantly non-black Muslim speakers talking about Malcolm it’s like they erase Malcolm X um Malcolm X is struggle in terms of while he during the Nation of Islam which is important because you need to know like I said earlier

Malcolmx when he was during the Nation of Islam and even prior to that in terms of um having lost his father at 6 years old who was murdered by the KKK his mom being sectioned in the mental um hospital by the age of 13 that will have traumatic impact in terms of your

Upbring and so again not that I agree with um the Nation of Islam I can understand how they came about and I think that’s important that we even if you don’t agree with maybe from a theological perspective they did do they did and are continue to doing a l lot of

Good for the black community which has to be recognized and you can understand how it came about because it didn’t come out of a vacuum so I think that’s even as Muslims even if we maybe don’t agree with um some of what they’re saying in terms of about theology theology we need

To understand like in terms of the movement in terms of the activism and that’s something that Malcolm was wanted to stress which even after became a Sunni Muslim he was he was very much about activism not just preaching and they is um illustrated by he set up two

Organizations after he um left um the Nation of Islam or was kicked out of the Nation of Islam he set up u a Muslim organization which was inclusive of everyone IR respect of your race but primarily teaching people about Islam and it also set up an afroamerican exclusively for African-Americans black empowerment

Organization to obviously educate black people and also to deal with um issues that AFF affecting primarily the 22 mil to 22 million African Americans in America so I think that’s very important because he understood that him he himself and another thing as well when people talk about um malol X during the

Nation of Islam and then when he became a Sunni Muslim people say that the Sunni malol was Al Malik when he actually was given that name when he was within the Nation of Islam so it’s not like he converted and then he changed his name this that’s another misunderstanding

That some people have because he was given that name whilst he was during the um the Nation of Islam but he said um when he was interviewed after he came back from Mecca that he wanted to still he’s still going to use the name Malcolm X because that’s the name that he’s

Known by that’s the name that he’s known by if he were to go by mik shabaz a lot of people particularly um you have you can imagine lot of the African-American um who weren’t Muslim they probably wouldn’t have gravitated because they maybe didn’t want to which within their right to embrace Islam but

They liked what he was doing in terms of calling for black empowerment and things like that and black in terms of his black activist struggles so that’s why he set up two organization and I think that’s something that Muslims when I’m hearing Muslims talk about mus um

Malcolm X they talk about like I said um obviously his famous pilgrimage to Mecca and things like that but then in terms of his his activism his social activ that’s ignored and that in terms of for me in terms of a lot of Malcolm’s greatness and why he’s um revered by so

Much people across the world is is the fact that he was willing to die for his beliefs and he was very courageous in that not not he Islamic beliefs again that’s not to say it’s important but that’s why he he’s embraced by Muslims and non-muslims but again that was just some

Of my thoughts I was that I had issues with but I wanted to kind of um in the discussions I want to maybe talk to a few after kind of um um hear some of your thoughts in terms of why is it within um the Muslim communities in particular araban I was

Araban Asian or Arab isn’t asan is I don’t araban Asian but you know I mean they kind of whitewashed Malcolm so we’ll talk a little about that in more detail later another thing I wanted to kind of um discuss is why is it that malomed Islamic or Muslim belief is often

Ignored by pan-africanist or afro or black nationalists as anyone read um destruction of black civilizations by Chancellor Williams Williams excellent book um was published in 1974 um but one of the issues I had with that book obviously being a Muslim um was not even being a Muslim just even as

A historian was some of its um the portrayals of Islam that I would say was inaccurate and of um the early Arabs now in the book um it talks about Islam as like being a white religion so similarly how Christianity is can seen as a white person’s religion

Um Chancellor Williams in this book and then this led to a number of other Pana africanists um saying the same type of rhetoric in terms about Islam being a a white person’s religion and it’s not like an African religion so black people shouldn’t Embrace this

Religion um so in this book in 1974 he charges Islam that he subjugated African blacks and he and he identifies the Arabs as Whites by Caucasians this book um then led to a number of other leading afro sorry pan africanist and afrocentrics talking about Islam being a leading you can say

Afrocentric Crusades against Islam particularly black American Islam and again by black American Islam I’m talking about Sunni Islam an example is haki mud forgive me if I mispronounce his name mbati m he suggested in his book enemies The Clash of racist in 1978 that that Islam was part of the

Global white supremacist ideology another professor professor Santi who coed who coed the term afrocentricity defined his par rers in 1980 he proclaimed that Islam was in fact contradictory to afrocentricity meaning like Africa Africans are the center of like in terms of ideology or understanding the world and another

Great historian the late Dr John Henry Clark he also continued um Chancellor Williams’s approach to the subject in terms of seeing um afro Islam being in contradiction to being a true African and this is something which even whilst I was um um whilst I was in Brazil and there was a

Talk about the Muslim presence in Brazil when I was there last November and they they spoke about Malcolm X as well the influence that he had in terms of s similar the same way malcol X’s conversion led to a number of African-Americans embracing Islam had the same impact not only in this country

But also in Brazil as well and there was a panafrican isent audience um who was of the uh I believe of the one of the EUR religions the traditional EUR religions that’s practicing in in in Brazil particularly in northeast of Brazil and he was talking about that why

Are we talking about Islam Islam is a white man’s religion the same way Christianity is like a white person’s religion you need to practice a true religion and this idea of the true religion is a true African religion now one of the speakers at the time he he

Challenged him and this is again some I wanted to talk about is this of a true African religion what is a true African religion because even Africa itself how many countries in Africa and even within like one country there’s many different ethnicities the different cultures and the different religions itself this idea

That there’s this true African religion um and if you’re somewhat becoming a true African if you’re embracing your African Heritage therefore you should leave the religion of Islam this is something obvious I have an issu obviously as a Muslim I don’t see any anywh anyway less of an African because

I believe in a religion that was established by an Arabian Prophet an Arabian man okay because again in terms of understanding which Malcolm understood in terms of understanding Islamic religion which is different to the Nation of Islam there was no there’s no superiority of between a black person

A white person Arab or a non-arab and again that’s something that afro Centrics or panafrican is when they’re talking about Malcolm you see that like Malcolm when they’re talking Malcolm they generally talk about the Malcolm that was in the Nation of Islam and the Malcolm that was in the Nation of Islam

Is very different to the Malcolm that for the last year of his life so again that’s why again when I said earlier in in the talk and defining these terms it’s important to understand which Malcolm we’re talking about if we’re talking about the the Malcolm up until

The last year of his life he rejected a lot of the views and a lot of the views that he was saying dunov as well as a minister of um of the Nation of Islam but yet those views are spoken about a lot by afrocentrics and spoken about a

Lot by Pana africanist in terms of we need to create a separate um Nation for black people and things like that so so against and this is something that Malcolm himself which he did say he would reject so it’s just interesting why um despite Malcolm himself saying he

Rejects a lot of the views that he had um a lot a lot of these views people still talk about as if this is like the true malcol and and then I’ll talk about some of the myths which um some of the So-Cal Afrocentric myths about Islam are that

Islam is a non-african religion um and it’s a quote unquote white Arab religion um and it’s and ultimately that the Islam similar to Judaism Christianity was derived from chem so we can talk a little bit about that later um and another thing which a number of Afro Centrics talk about and Pana

Africanist is this idea that because of what occurred in Islamic history like the slave revolts which took place in 19 century um Iraq when um there was a number of um East African black East African Muslims known as the Zan when they rebelled against um uh their slave master the Arabs slave

Masters a lot of people a lot of Pana africanist and I’ve had many discussions with pan Africans they attribute this to the religion right so the same way and I think this is doing an injustice to religion the same way I think it’s an injustice for not only black people but

Even brown people whatever to attribute what the transatlantic slave trade to Christianity so because a number of um because a number of um because of Catholic Church a number of Christians in the name of Christianity they endorse slavery and the subjugation of black people people attribute that to

Christianity and say the religion is not for Christianity is a white is a qu white person religion and it’s not for black people well going by that logic then Islam is not for black people because there were a number of Muslims who in Islamic history who subjugated and oppress black people you understand

So I’m saying that type of logic is is is dangerous in sense because if you’re if you’re going to go by that type of understanding that’s why chrisan Christianity is not for black people then you by the same understanding that that’s why Islam is qu not for black

Black people as well which again that’s something which I I’ll disagree with and I think that’s something that whether you’re Muslim or non-muslim that’s something that you need to kind of think about when people talk about what is a quotequote um white religion or a European religion and there was different

Conversations that we had at previous um sessions as well actually pertaining to this whole uh conversation of um I mean how would you frame the subjugation of uh black people um by say Arab predominantly Arab people at the time was that actually essentially Islamic in essence or was that actually just an

Arab supremacist kind of um essentially practice you know and if you see obviously the relationships of say even during the prophet’s time the migration to Ethiopia and things like this so these kind of conversations can go into it but I think it would be really interesting to certainly pick up on that

Point um the idea of although we don’t want to obviously Focus all our energy on that because the conversation is quite Broad and there’s other really interesting points that I want to pick up on but we if we can come back to that that yeah that’s that’s a good point um because in

The previous session um there was a definitely a really valid point um made by um two points one was the um history of Tim Baku uh which was a non uh black brother made that point and then an a Muslim panafrican sister um said that actually it’s very um

Problematic to say you know speak about the history of timbak 2 and say that oh apparently advancement education was all in the name of Islam and so on you know and also um I think that the slavery um which it was slavery practiced by Arabs predominantly Arabs Arab slavery right

Um because many um pieces of literature essentially call it Arab slavery They Don’t Really um call it an Islamic uh slavery so it’s actually framed in different because um I would argue that the Arabs continue like a slavery even in uh parts of I mean they’ve enslave um

Asians as well you know and we can have those conversations even even today um and yeah so I would like really hope if you can bring up that point it would be really good to actually uh just address that yeah you actually I wanted to go to

That towards the end but no worries no but no I’m glad you said that cuz I what you said about I think it’s important I just want to Quick expand upon and I think I mean I’ll go into that now if you don’t mind of course well I don’t

Want to structure this I want to make this kind of more like a conversation even though I’m one that’s speaking but in a sense where it’s flowing not just I’m going to talk A to Z and then understand I’m getting but just expanding Point um upon your point about

Which is true this idea of Arab slavery why is it why is it considered to be Arab slavery as opposed to or is it Arab slav or is it Islamic slavery just a quick overview in terms of Islamic history in terms of its dealings with black people um in terms of slavery

Um now when OB we know Islam was established in the 7th century and then it spread outside the Arabian Peninsula and started conquering other lands now when um and this is something that a lot of Muslims don’t like to talk about because there some uncomfortable troths about Islamic history when Islam spreads

Although Islam spread in this kind of scene as the Golden Age of Islam a sense of Arab superiority started to develop amongst some many of the Arab Muslims which many people don’t talk about and one of the things which again although Islam was embraced um Arabs black people

Europeans and also after Asians as well um what a number of the Arab Muslims did in the KN century was in order to become a Muslim you had to join an Arab tribe which again that’s not from the that’s not from Islam that’s going back to Arab

Culture so in order to become like a a quotequote proper Muslim you have to align yourself with a certain Arab tribe and become like a m which again that’s something that they introduced but that’s not part of Rel an attrib that’s something that they introduced right now

In terms of um the enslavement of black people the Arabs did not only enslave black people they enslaved um other Arabs and they also enslaved Europeans but they then um they did Target a number of black people particularly the black Africans um in East in East Africa but that and but

That did and some of it it was primarily because they were black and um because they were influenced by um theories from ancient Greeks that black people are naturally submissive to slavery and they’re naturally that they’re well equipped and the curse of ham thean story from the Bible and stuff and they

Use it as a form of justification to slave black people right so the same way you had that with the transatlantic St trade you did have that in Islamic history now I wouldn’t say that’s Islamic because that’s not from a religion right so that’s why I say it’s

Arabic slave trade the same way I would not say that what the transatlantic slave trade which the Europe white white Christian Europeans what they did to Black Africans I won’t say it’s I wouldn’t say it’s a Christian slave trade I would say that it’s a European slave trade do you understand again I

Think we I think we is like we can accuse um and I think even as Muslims or non um white people we like to point the finger at white people in European and say they did this in the name of Christianity but there were also Muslims who did similar things that you could

Argue that was in the name of Islam but you wouldn’t say that I wouldn’t say that do you yeah sure that’s that’s that’s why I wouldn’t ascribe cuz I mean even like the fame the recent um birth of the nation film which was interesting if anyone hasn’t seen it or even read

The book you had and the reason why the film was so interesting you had um the slave masters who was using slavery to oppress black people he’s also you he also had um a slave who was using a Bible to fight against slavery do you understand I’m getting that so you can

Use like the Bible the same with the Quran you can use use it to to like you can man you can try and manipulate and say it means this it means that well obviously if you actually read the TT is quite clear I’ll say I argue that the

Bible somewhat is a bit more it can be manipulated more than um um than the Quran in terms of how you can subjugate slaves and stuff like that because there’s some verses which is quite problematic when in the Quran it’s not that you hav’t but in in saying that um

Slavery wasn’t the slavery wasn’t abolished by itself Islam so slavery was still practicing Islamic his but done because of someone’s race that came after the period of time not because of the religion yeah and also um is it fair to equate Arab slavery with European slavery because is it not a different no

I don’t I think it’s a if I think against I don’t want they were both horrific practices but I don’t think you can compare the two in a sense um that what the Europeans did was like chutle slavery what and again just another thing as well that I think we

Need to as well and I’m myself a victim of this as well when we think of slavery and slaves we don’t have to we shouldn’t be think of black people cuz that’s a thing that comes to most people’s minds nowadays if you were to say slavery slaves you automatically think of

Racialized slavery because of what happened in transatlantic slave trade now I know it’s troubling for some people to leave but Africans enslaved a um Africans as well do you understand that’s what araban say again I’m not trying to condone the practice whatever but when you’re looking at the Arab

Slave trade is not the same again I’m not justifying all the Arab slave tra Arab is enslaving black people Arab is enslaving um Indians as well and I’m not saying that that is is is Islamic in any but I’m not but it’s not it wasn’t racialized the way it was as what

Happened in the transatlantic slave but some parts of it was it’s an interesting conversation to have been contemporary understanding of like slavery as well no because when you go to much of the Arab world that does still in my how I would frame it still practices slavery and say

In a lot of the khi countries um there is a racialized element to it I would argue it’s not racialized it’s more about your tribe so if you’re not because I in in with the European slave trade if you had if you looked like if you was nonwhite they

Would Target you right whereas the Arabs obvious we know that some Arabs are very light in complexion some very dark in complexion a very dark in complexion Arab will enslave a lighter more lighter in complexion black African not because he’s due to class hierarch because he’s

Not from the same tribe and again that’s nothing that we need to understand especially that’s why I wanted to do in the beginning of this it’s understanding terms and how people use terms so even when Malcolm X was assassinated was it 51 years ago the way they use terms is

Very different have we used some terms now that’s why it’s important before we kind of get into any discussion you know it might sound like this guy reading a dictionary but you need to understand what I mean by certain terms because I might use a term now and we saw

Obviously recently what happened with um I’m not going to name the name of University that quote that used two figures um for Black History Month that were of um Pakistani in um Indian descent because again then understand what you mean by whether you agree with

It or not but if you if black history or black your referring to political Blackness there’s nothing wrong with that I don’t know I think the conversation is worth having that’s a good s track but but I think that it’s definitely worth like um kind of exploring like what is

Meant by political Blackness and like to what extent it can hijack like genuine obviously like you know say African voices um as well so but that’s why I wanted to say by me referring to Black um during this talk and discussion I’m mainly I’m referring to people of African descent people the

People dark dark skinn people of African desent again so that’s again I think that’s important that you understand so when I’m talking about Malcolm fighting for um the plight of black people if you were to incorporate all non-white people within that um the problem with that is that so obviously you’re including

People that even like Japanese people are fair in complexion then you won’t deal with the issue of which she spoke about a lot about the whole idea of um africanness or Africa seeing in negative light and that’s something that he wanted to address up again mainly talking to the 22 million African-Americans but

Extension Africans across the dasp this idea that and he spoke about like for example the people in Brazil 2ir I mean the reason he’s B that’s what even spots my some of my interest to go to Brazil as well we spoke about 2ir of the people in Brazil are nonwhite they’re people of

African descent but this idea that people in Brazil or people in Venezuela or people in Colombia are not African because they speak Spanish for Portuguese they’re Latin or Hispanic which is ridiculous and people even today they’ll consider them no they’re not black so AF a lot of African-Americans will say that they

Have African descent they’re black and then people of the Caribbean and Latin America those who look exactly like them and have got the same makeup are not black because they speak a different language do you understand so that’s why it’s important to understand and that’s something that Malcolm was trying to was

Trying to he talk about the whole idea of not only about colorism but the whole idea of africanist African Char African um what’s that word characteristics or African features sorry and I think that’s something that’s important because he was talking about that why is it and obviously we know that Beyonce

Used um one of his some of his famous speeches which raised awareness because he was talking about again the plight of black women um and how the whole idea and the concept of beauty and wise that we as black people as well and this is something as well which um

Malcolmx did do and again I think it’s important to understand he wasn’t trying to he wasn’t he definitely was definitely Unapologetic but he wasn’t trying to um preach to white people it’s for them to accept us it’s all about trying to change the mindset of black

People or people and then by towards the end of his life nonwhite people you’re trying to change your mindset so this decolonize your minds rather than trying to go to white people Europeans to accept us it was teaching us to kind of accept ourselves to where we are and our

God-given features and embrace it and celebrate it rather than like celebrate when a white person you know like says that we’re intelligent beautiful this and so I think that’s I think that’s that’s something that’s very important and that comes down to um also the whole idea of

African the whole idea of why is Africa’s always seen as a bad light and it’s spoke about why the colonial Powers you know they they projected Africa with like Savages and jungles and things like that people wanted to escape to Africa um I’ve kind of gone over the 30 minutes

Maybe 40 minutes these are some rambling thoughts um sure um is there anything important that you want to touch on the presentation before we get to the question question session Al what I said wasn’t important saying in the remain um CU obvious interrupted your no fine no I

Mean a lot of I mean the rest is quite self-explanatory one of the questions which um I had at the end which I kind of I kind of spoke about as well was I read an interesting article where um someone was in the garden in the telegraph sorry where and I’ve heard

This from other people as well and this ties into what you was talking about about the um Arab slave trade and things like that um and I’ve heard this from a number of people that because obviously we know that Malcolm X’s life was one of evolution and change when he came across

New material and and new truths and he was he wasn’t scared to embrace his new truths um one thing that this particular writer I’ve heard it from other writers as well is if Malcolm X knew about the anti-black racism which exists because to be honest reading the letter of the letter

From Mecca is it’s beautiful but it it doesn’t speak about the realities of antiblack racism which exist in the Muslim Community maybe malcol experienced that so what a number of um this writer and other writers are saying is that if Malcolm X were to if he lived

Long enough to see the antiblack RM which exists within the Muslim Community he probably would he probably would have left Islam the same way um he left the Nation of Islam now I would argue um against that because and again this is important to understand his identity he

Wasn’t someone who was a Muslim because of other Muslims right he wasn’t a Muslim because other other people’s Muslim and something that he did say even in his autobiography as well especially after um he found out about the infidelity of of um Elijah Muhammad he realized that

How dangerous it is to put your all your faith in one person what to believe someone is divine which again from an Islamic perspective we don’t believe any human being is divine so just because if he were to find out about the anti-black racism which exists in which exists

Unfortunately in many Muslim countries and has existed in Islamic history I don’t think that would have changed um his perception about Islam because he wasn’t someone that was like again he he didn’t his faith wasn’t based upon solely based upon the the the fraternity of the Muslims do you understand that

Changed his his Outlook in terms of his views or perception of whiteness because like he mentioned when he was in Mecca and he saw people that in America would be considered Whit but they he said like Islam had remove the whiteness from their their understand it you understand

Again it but the reason why he said that and I think it’s important is because even when I speak to the number of even my um North African friends they don’t consider thems white but maybe in America might be considered to be white so again that’s why I think it’s

Important because that changed the the trip changed his perception in terms of race relations but not not his understanding in terms of who God is and again he remember you have to remember that he’s he came from a religious background with his father was um a religious person believed in God so this

Understanding that you know if he found out about the practice IES of of Muslims in the past like the xand rebellion and all the rest of it he would have somewhat left Islam I would argue against it because he was someone that was dedicated ultimately to God serving

God not serving not trying to serve and please human beings and that’s why he’s he could always that change in terms of if new information came came to light about certain people’s practices yes for real okay thank you very much for I speaking too fast a little bit so

You should have put your hand up slow down we’re definitely we’re going to come back now we’re just going to go around and we can definitely pick up are we okay Santino yeah you could just put it down Santino it’s cool like it’s fine there anyways um so obviously um yeah

We’re really thankful for your presentation and we’re just going to pick up on um perhaps segments that weren’t covered and obviously we can relay back we have the hour um so um anybody want to go first in perhaps engaging with the speaker on a particular talking point or um even

Sharing their thoughts on the topic yes yeah you said that the um European slave trade it wasn’t like based on Christianity but like the like the British when the British did the slave trade they they use the Bible to justify the slaver yeah did they not

Yeah no what maybe I I I didn’t explain myself properly it was based on Christianity what I’m saying is I wouldn’t say because of excuse me because of the practice of some Christians I wouldn’t ascribe that to Christianity there’s a difference so like so they use the curse of ham story

Uhhuh incorrectly to justify the enslavement of black Africans now if you read the curse fam story in the Bible in Genesis it doesn’t mention that Noah enslaved um ham and his descendants with Blackness but some um you can say creative um interpreters they misinterpret to say enslave them with Blackness and slavery

So this idea that um black people are um should be enslaved by Europeans and using the Bible to justify if you actually read the Bible it doesn’t justify that but people interpreted it to see their own means to enslave black people now again because they they

Justified I mean they use the Bible to justify their action I wouldn’t ascribe it to Christianity cuz I would say Christianity is free from that the same way I would argue that Islam is free from the insl some of the oppression which which happened um to the black

Africans at the hands of Arab Muslims I’m not going to say that they’re not Muslims cuz do you again that’s why I’m saying that I wouldn’t ascribe that to Christianity not to say that they wasn’t Christians but yeah the had though they do have racism in it sorry the hadit

Have racism which which had what you say okay it’s I’m I’m glad you asked that question and said that and that was one of the reasons why I WR my first book of dealing with the whole concept of anti-black racism in Islamic history and in some Islamic literature

Now if you can give me some of the hadiths because some of them are fabricated and that’s what not not many people are aware of so there are some hadiths which um hadiths prophetic tradition where the Prophet Muhammad peace upon is reported to him said there’s no good in black people the Zan

When they steal they for when they when they’re hungry uh they steal and when they say they fornicate now that Hadith even though it’s widely circulated among Muslim Community is fabricated he didn’t say that so if you’re just picking up a book by some people attacking Islam and

Said so that’s one Hadi right quite so that’s why again when we’re speaking and I’m glad you said that but it’s important to for you if you say you’ve made an accusation I would say okay bring that I’m not making no okay but you’ve said that but you said the Hadi

Are racist I said now I’m saying that I’m so I’m not mean to like be rude or anything but I’m saying that okay bring me in a Hadi where is racist I see and then it’s either cuz I’ve gone through a number of them if you can show me one that is

Racist then I will hold my hand up I haven’t seen it because most of them they either fabricated or it’s it’s interpretation for example there’s a Hadith which which says that obey your ruler even if he’s an Ethiopian with a rais on his with a raisen head right now

Some people have taken that Hadith to say oh this is the prophet Muhammad or this is Islam disparaging black people now if you understand if you read the interpretation of that is you have to understand again the context now the Arabs of the time um even though they had relations with these East

Africans um they used to look you can say the the position of the Arabs especially the Arab um Aristocrats they will look they will look down upon an East African or black African right cuz again not because they’re black but in terms of understanding their tribe yeah you with

Me yeah right now by the prophet saying obey your ruler even if cuz he used again this comes UN Arabic he used even if it’s an eth like a poor Ethiopian he’s not saying that there’s something inherently wrong with being a poor ethopian or poor black person saying

Even if it’s someone that you don’t expect and he’s and he’s and the purpose of that Hadith is to um to emphasize the importance of OB obeying people in power because you don’t want um like f you don’t want Discord right so again let understand the context it’s not saying

That something is inherently wrong with black people do you understand again so there’s a number of these hadiths and I’m not trying to attack you or anything like that there’s a number of these hadiths which people assume are racist number one because they haven’t underst understood the context or they’re

Reading it with a racialized contemporary mind and that’s why it’s important like I tried to do in the beginning understanding how people use terms them do you understand I’m getting that so I I but again if you do find the one that had the P let me know but I

Guarantee you it’s either fabricade or it’s the context like which does doesn’t actually um mean which it looks like it means if you’re reading it from a 21st century lens in a racialized world and that’s why I think it’s important that we when we’re reading historic texts we

Need to understand how they use words then not how we understand words cuz we’re going to do Injustice to them and ultimately to other people when we’re propagating some of these like ideas no I wasn’t reading anything it’s just a it was just I think you were just basically

Bringing up a point that maybe has been made in certain circles or whatever yes yeah people make those put by again and this is where it’s important for us to educate and not understand how like understand how people the past cuz again I trying to give I’m trying to give examples of only

50 years ago how people use words differently and and know how words changed over a period of time and even nowadays that’s why I gave the example like jz’s song so you can hear it like an africanamerican rapper that might say um he believes in Allah now what he

Means by Allah he’s talking about himself do you understand I’m getting that so that’s why it’s important that you understand how people use words and what they mean by certain words and and these some of these words do change over time so if you’re just picking up a book particularly historic book and

Understanding how people use those words then you’re going to misinterpret things right and also just on the whole religious conversation whilst we’re at it um the idea there’s certain um sort of descript descriptions of the Prophet peace be upon him having African features now and the fact that there are

Prophets that are black within Islam so probably Musa and someone if you could just touch on that a little bit okay so there’s like in Islamic tradition I mean in terms of how many prophets there are there’s nothing that clearly in by name there’s between that 25 to 27 mentioned

In name in Quran um but in Hadith literature there’s a report which suggests that there’s 124,000 prophets some of those are so a prophet is someone who sent to his people to inform people about excuse me the message meaning that there’s only one God and and to follow the messengership of that particular

Prophet um now there are prophets sent people to Indian people there Prophet Cent to black people to old people right but we only know of like I said either 25 to 27 met by name the Quran but there’s some um reports that even some of the prophets that were mentioned in

The Quran some of them are said to be um black Africans L and the Propet the prophet of the people of the dip so this idea that um and I think it’s important is that this idea that Islam is somewh anti- African anti-black Islam is not for black people

Islam is solely for black people sorry it’s not it’s not solely for Arabs it’s not solely for white people it’s perspective for everyone right but again in terms of or like the point you mentioned about like Musa having like report have like kinky hair or I mean

The idea of the propit I mean my my only issue is because as much as yes you want to talk about or fight anti-blackness you can go to one extreme and then start saying which I think is very dangerous and start saying everyone is black in

Islam and every like yes we know there’s Traditions which um state that um from Islam perspective that the first person on this uh of Adam is Black from the word ad Adam which means like dark brown and how means dark or like black but even if they were black from Islam

Perspective that’s irrelevant from an Islamic perspective and that’s something which even malcol was stressing that when he was talking about that race again this is Muslim Mal that it’s incidental to the person and that’s something which even as we as black brown people however you want to self identify

We you don’t want to go to one extreme where you’re just going to start speaking about how white people are just like evil and this and the other because of the Injustice that some not all white people have done do you understand so it’s about trying to be balanced and

It’s and it’s it’s quite a difficult ground to To Tread on because again you want to empower black people brown people but at the same time you can then fall into the Trap which many people have of just disparaging or cast dispersion upon white people because of some practices which some white people

Have and say that’s reflection of the whole kind of racis me this ISM what about Christianity’s link with um colonialism and missionary missionary sort of uh movements that were partaking and their sort of Oppression you know on subjugating black and brown people yeah so I mean I’m just saying that I

Think that Christianity does have a certain Colonial history and although um even Arabs have obviously um had Inquisition and and so on um but I but I just I just think one thing we have to be careful of is distinguish between the religion and the people who who adhere

To the religion or claim to adhere to the religion so like he said we know Christianity has a or Christian there’s a like it’s link with um colonialism but are we now saying that because of what a number of colonists did in the name of Christianity that’s a reflection of

Christianity was Christianity indigenous to Africa well there’s recently is that conversation there is that how did how did it come to um the African people but you know what in what Manner I recently um went to a talk with um Professor an Anthony ridy because I

Don’t know how useful it is also to be an apologist for say Christian U missionary no I’m not being apologist I’m not I’m what I’m trying to say is like so for example this idea of yes we know that Christianity in terms of Christian history what in terms of like

Um what a lot of number of Christian missionaries did to um black Africans we know we know about that but one thing which again I wasn’t really aware of which when I went to this um this talk and Professor Anthony ridy he black Theology and again from a Christian

Perspective and he was talking about like St um I think name St Augustine he’s he he’s an African now he was talking about even within the Christian world World they don’t talk about that they try to like whiten him they whitewash him now he’s celebrated but they don’t talk about his africanness do

You understand this was way before colonialism so there there is African and black um theologians who did who are celebrating Christianity but they don’t talk about the africanist or their Blackness but isn’t that sort of do you understand so I’m saying if we’re going to ascribe colonialism to Christianity

Because of what some Christian missionaries did then why we also ascribe what like the great works of black and African theologist and Christianity say that’s why it’s a qu African religion do you understand I’m getting and I mean my my issue with this whole idea of because something didn’t

Originate from a place that’s not it’s not a quot African religion by that logic then Islam is not an African religion and that’s what I don’t I don’t look I don’t see an Arab but that is a genuine position that is held by like obviously plan africanist yeah and that’s why

And that’s what I wanted to talk about that this idea that and even when we’re talking about Africa Africa the continent some people include um um the Arabian Peninsula within Africa they say that’s part of Africa again that’s some people’s interpretation and even the word Africa is derived fromia which is a a

City in Tunisia now the people in Tunisia again again understanding Blackness are they quotequote black do you understand I’m getting that so you’re going to go into all these who is black and then who is real African because the ironic thing is although a lot of North Africans do not consider

Themselves to be African because they see Africa’s like subar Africa Africa derived from a word uh which is a city North Africa and it was from a European person that named it Africa it’s like okay me call myself an African I’m basically like the son of a white man did you

Understand I’m get so this as much as this can sound kind of contradic Blackness and import of like black and power but then at the same time talking about it’s irrelevant and that’s something that again if you read or listen to the last the speeches towards um the last year of Malcolm’s

Life it was like it sounded like a lot of what he was saying previously was important but at the same time he was defending what he was saying if that makes sense it sounds contradictory but it’s not in a sense if you look at it from a position of no because he

Understands the plight of black people especially in America so he’s addressing it and trying to um change their mindset so he has to talk the importance of black people and the contribution of black people made but ultimately he’s saying these like your Blackness is not what makes you a better person and also

You understand I’m getting that and so so again like I said earlier it’s quite a dangerous line because you can go to one extreme or the other so it’s just best to take a Nuance position yeah it’s best to take a Nuance position and just be objective this and try try and be

Will bias don’t get me wrong but try and be objective and the same way when we say things particularly about European like Europeans and things like like that try and okay let’s in the other way if you was in their position is it fair if they were to say the same thing about

Your religious beliefs or your ethnic TR J understand and you probably wouldn’t like it but generally when you’re um not in a position of power you can always attack those in power even if it’s even even if your argument is not justified do you understand what I’m getting that

I think you can you can get away it’s easy to get away with even if it’s not justified I think that’s something that we need to kind of be careful of the same as a man I’ll be honest right I can hear I a man so I’m in a position of

Privilege naturally over women generally Society so when a woman when I hear a woman complain about maybe like sexual harassment these type of things because I don’t identify with it CU it’s not my experience I can dismiss it it’s easy for me to dismiss but it takes time for

Me to actually listen and she let me understand where she’s coming from and the same so when and that that’s me as a as a man I can ID I can understand that that’s why I can not agree but I can understand why like maybe white or Europeans they find it difficult to

Understand the position of like a press groups whether they’re black Muslim African whatever but I don’t think that when you’re having these conversations there should be any uh appeasement of those kind of cuz as Malcolm he was Unapologetic in his message and he obviously was um able to effectively

Deliver um and he wasn’t a pacifist which I think is important ex I’m just going to get to the sister here do you have um a difference between the afro do you have difference between the afro centes cism afro centes yeah it do know in English AF afro cism afro centrism

Yes and the P pancan have the difference between oh yes that’s a good point I didn’t um I didn’t um Define that I saw that actually on the train as well I anyway um probably someone can correct me but my understanding panafrican is someone who believes um what’s the definition I

Should know this cuz I went to panafrican school when I was like is it’s someone that believes can anyone help me out I’m struggling it’s someone that believes like it’s trying someone that’s trying yeah someone that’s trying to connect with people of the African diaspora so trying to give a good definition I

Can draw in James here it would be nice to have like nice your um segment did you not touch on perhaps like the I don’t know if it was touched on that session but if you if you can kind of just bring in a little bit of what how

You understand Pana africanism yeah um I suppose I saw it I read it more as like a a sort of global position of Africans So like um um which which included maybe um you know those Africans um um in the diaspora as well as the indigenous Africans um I

Suppose to yeah and it’s kind of like seeing us all as one people isn’t it yeah yeah that’s very thecity of about I like to the uni yeah so did everyone hear that no yeah can you repeat that again cuz that was what I said sorry um yeah I P P

Africanism um I suppose I read it as just a global um a global kind of standpoint or Global a global kind of position um of um of Africans not just Pan African hasn’t got anything to do with like a one nation like you know United States

Of Africa or anything no but saying that we all like people of African descent like I mentioned earlier like the people of Brazil Cuba we’re all one people every I think St kichel kind of in in a debate between him Andante um was was more about kind of um

Emphasiz the organization of Africans um you not to not this kind of view of the nation but more just trying to the problems that Africans face over the world so it’s maybe kind of a stage um prior to maybe that naist ideas I think secy was less

Nationalistic um and more kind of I don’t know kind of worldly to say that you know um the uniqueness of African people um wasn’t you know could could have been kind of addressed in Africa like African experiences were unique whatever okay so um I’m just going to

Draw um sorry can we are there any other James do you want to ask any questions or um any talking points to the speaker sorry is there anybody else um any speaking points we’re going to come back to this side but if we can get you

James first if you have anything to say and then I wanted to just bring in a few points I you down and it was just sorry James is it a bit cool if you can raise your um yeah I suppose I just had thought this thought about um the kind of distinction between

Blackness and black life yeah um I think is kind of an important decision just let me know I think malcol especially towards the end um of his career after Amica where became more pluralistic as you can say in his Outlook um and more considerate of you know the state

Um his perception of racism and white people ET that people as well um I think that I I I think that’s what I read the distinction there between how black life could be accessed by anyone or could be experienced by anyone that that black Blackness wasn’t

This kind of um you know other worldly kind of phenomenon in the world which had to be kind of objectified categorized and contained structured within already pre-existing apparates within Society the economy but that is that life was um something that was um that sort of integrated within the fabric of sort

Of American life or the the experience of black Americans and white Americans as well which is interesting which very interesting when he was talking about you know in one of some of his interviews he was talking about how um um he will he would welcome anybody um

You know white people or anybody who was willing at least to kind of help alleviate the conditions of black people in America a v different kind of um you know kind of request that he would have which kind of not problematized but kind of diluted this the kind of

Discussions of you know about racial Pride he still had racial Pride this racial Pride was um something that was more of an individual kind of um self-conscious sort of understanding um rather than you know a political Doctrine or anything like that um and so I suppose you

Like um initially I was thinking about this between black and is interesting how you know um where where he did Advocate his commitment to Islam he became more fly ASL he he he know that’s kind of addressed his um Affinity with it through the prism of um you know the

Black experience yeah which is quite interesting I think think me that you know original Brotherhood um but one which could be address addressed through different eyes and it’s about this kind of metaphysical notion of the one and the many just just lose thought islamist conceiv I think it’s interesting you

Rais a number of points just so I was going to say I going to start from the first point actually going to start the last that you ra but the idea of which which you which you said about or malcol to of Islam and he

Did mention um one of I think it’s in one of the hands but he did mention that he believed that obviously leing in the Wess of God and obviously the Wess of man ter of Brotherhood that could alleviate or eradicate the race the human cancer of racism because obviously

To see that we come from the same experience as obviously human beings but in saying that which you just point out um the black experience is or the white experience obviously is different we we come from different experiences but the only thing I would say is

Um I and I don’t think he he saw him being becoming more religious or more Islamic or whatever any way that meant that he’s he’s not going to be defending black people fighting for the rights of black people anymore because ultimately Islam and how a number of Muslims view

Islam is a religion teaching teaching people that you should fight for justice whether for Muslims or even for non-muslims it’s about also teaching Justice you I’m getting that so and this is something that I think even evolved his way of thinking about when he was talking about after his discussion with

A number of the leaders in Africa that he wasn’t looking at racism just about like black and white it’s more about his fighting for Injustice do you understand and I wouldn’t be surprised if later if he lived longer he would have been fighting for like other minority groups

Like women and things like that irres of their color but he like he said in number of his speeches although he was a Muslim and he didn’t je race we didn’t see people’s color he was a realist and he’s and even when he’s speaking about the plight of black people he always

Speaks about his main concern is the plight of the 20 he says so many times the pl the 22 million African-Americans cuz that’s where he’s from that’s not to say that he’s not fighting for the plight of black people in Brazil or black people in the UK which he was

Aware of but that is his main concern that’s where he’s from he understands him more than anyone else do you understand and then obviously when he traveled then he real and that’s why coming to the whole concept of Pana africanism he was trying to connect with the African Brothers in Africa and

African Brothers in parts of South America But ultimately he was trying to defend or fighting for the rights of of African-Americans obviously that’s where he came from leing him being a Muslim or like I said becoming more religious and way kind of deterred him from that struggle that’s

What I think he refined it if anything and I think just coming to the point which I think which you made which I think is important um even the idea and he mentioned um he mentioned and he says one of his regrets was and he was shown

In the film where um he said a young white girl came to him in the restaurant and asked what can I do to help and he said nothing and then actually he did mention that he I think is when he spoke to Gordon P two days before he was

Assassinated that that was one of his regrets and then it so that’s why even with the organization the two organization that he set up he did he did allow white people to help but not join why because if you’re letting and I can understand because if you’ve got an organization that’s about

Black empowerment and again he spoke about the idea that when it comes to serious things we always go to white people and you see it in this society as well when it comes to entertainment music you know we we’re we’re the we’re the main people but when it comes to

Serious things we want to go to someone else in order to even for black people to overcome this you need to have black people in power so they won’t think of when they thinking of intelligence they’re thinking of white people when they thinking of slavery what do we

Think of we think of black people that needs to change do you understand I’m getting that so him even him having this organization where he was exclusively black but he did say white people can help but they can’t join do you understand so his views did change but ultimately I think people

Need to understand that even as um as a Muslim or um or as a black nationalist or Pana africanist and you was talking about the experiences of like Blackness and black life people can relate to it because everyone has been oppressed so even if you’re white rich you can relate to like

The black experience of Oppression for example like in America but ultim to something you can relate to but doesn’t it doesn’t mean it’s going to be the same the same I can’t I can relate to some respects or understand what a woman goes through but I can’t I’m not a woman

Woman I don’t understand her experience so it would be wrong for me to put to to put myself in a position of of a woman’s forum and speak on behalf of women and I’m not going to be helping this J if they’re trying to empower themselves J

Getting but that’s not to say that men shouldn’t be I don’t think that’s not to say that men shouldn’t be able to join or not join necessary help the same way like I think that was like Malcolm Malcolm’s U understanding why he’s with the afroamerican I think Unity organization he’s exclusively black but

He said white people can help which obviously PRI Nation when in Nation of Islam he wasn’t uh like he wasn’t like um help he was he wasn’t going to white people wasn’t using them to assist him of anything I think that’s a couple of interesting points you raed I

Think my my my point that had on my head was that I think when when he was when he was making that address interview about um being open to um contributions that it it it it wasn’t it wasn’t I don’t know it wasn’t like a question anymore of you know just

Being moral that you know that the moral standards have been have completely collapsed yeah even within the Nation of Islam even among black people yes there was no way that you know um it got to State black people couldn’t really help themselves yeah um and that that I think that was the reality

Of Americans I think that they they can’t help themselves because um um their inability to help even was a symptom of a broader problem um a global issue or you know that wasn’t it wasn’t a racialized thing it was just a problem with the inadequacy of human moral conscience

Itose an ethical of thing which is to say that you know um yes an organization should be like for black people um but then this organization um has to be understood kind of upside with that experience but at least it end goal shouldn’t just be the um you know the sures of black

People okay it shouldn’t be over question just because I can’t just like why is this happening why are we doing something more action no good points I like think um so there was partic some talking sorry do you want to engage a bit more um James or um and are there

Any other um points that you want to raise um a any points um back to me you come back to me I’ll come back to you okay sure okay sure and we just um so I wanted to perhaps um just raise a few things um we’re actually having um the

Nation of Islam at a session um that will be quite controversial for some I’m sure but I want to engage in conversation with them I think it’s very important to um invite them and speak to them and we’re having the Europe Europe representative the European representative throughout the entire

Europe actually the minister I’m not sure what he called himself the minister of Europe not quite but the nation of of his um Minister who’s good friends with farakhan will be speaking um actually at a session um and I’m quite interested in having a conversation with him about

Black separatism and I don’t know how we can look at Black separatism in the Contemporary understanding or say how um we as non-black subjects of say a state such as Britain um how we can position ourselves within this state um in kind of looking at the um idea of black

Separatism I would say cuz I was speaking to an Iranian friend of mine who was speaking about how black separatism can be seen it’s very very important and quite revolutionary in the sense that how would non-black subjects uh sorry nonwhite subjects in a white supremacy State as written position

Themselves so they wouldn’t engage themselves in say The Party politics or they won’t necessarily want to become complicit in say a reformist um political uh sort of work but rather um separate themselves from this uh Dynamic and engage in a conversation kind of similar to how we’re doing today and um

Try to make an try to have an understanding of our position in the not only but to try and escape this eurocentric kind of positioning you know so yeah that was a bit rambled but I guess I think black separatism is so important and for me it’s just very um

Like revolutionary and interesting and I still uh really highly regard Nation of Islam on a political level um even in the US today um I think farak Khan’s uh position in relation to the elections is revolutionary and I definitely think that he is intelligent in some of his

Work and how he uh frames a lot of uh the oppression of uh black people in in the US and also um Europe and elsewhere so yeah I think he’s very important um I have disagreements on a theological level um but on a political level I hold

Them in very high regard um in fact Dr khid Muhammad um he was in the uh obviously Nation of Islam and also the Black Panther Party um he was an amazing Revolution and I’m like in love with him I think that he said some amazing things

And he’s like you know represents a very revolutionary um kind of uh politics in relation to Black separatism so can you maybe engage a little bit on black separatism and how we should take them seriously and how on certain issues that the Nation of Islam even on social

Justice movements and they’re doing kind of projects in the UK in relation to the family unit and they’re kind of promoting this idea of like the black family and other kind of projects as well so okay um probably going to be like rambling thoughts um there’s a lot that you spoke about

There’s I I if I’m honest I don’t agree with like the whole black separatist or black nationalist ideology in how is it understood like I okay okay I Sor coming to that was kind of yeah my issue is and I think it’s important especially Us in the UK or us

In Europe in particular actually not only Us in the UK American history in terms of specially understanding race relations is very different to the UK and Europe and I’m sure we’re aware of that and even terms of understanding Blackness and I think one of the issues is that a lot

Of non-white people in the UK we adopt the American model in of race relations and we try to and and that and I see as what so the solution in America might work there it might not it might I would argue they won’t necessarily work here why because again understand their

History with whole um One Drop for all and if you got a drop of black blood you consider to be black and the whole idea that you have white or generally white or black that idea is not the we we don’t have the same structure in this country to understand the race relation

That’s why I don’t think that will necessarily work right because there are many mixed race people there are many people of Asian descent who do not identify and rightly so for whatever reason as black and this idea that they have to identify as black because they’re nonwhite when in American they might be

Able to align themselves with whiteness because they might be considered all North African like even recently there’s even like some up in America because um in the American census if you’re an Arab you’re considered to be white right yeah and then now some Arabs are saying that

They should be a separate category for called Mina like Middle East of North African Middle East of North Afric descent now even then then you’re going to go into the problems of okay if you are a North Africa if you’re from like Morocco but you’re darking complex some

Moroccans that’s dark as or darker in America you be consider to be black but according to that census or according to like or the sensus now you’re white cuz you’re you’re an Arab do you understand I’m getting that so who is my my issue is what is Blackness again but are they

Arab because they are from the Saharas and and I’m what is an Arab and what is Blackness so if you I mean are you in Arab because you speak the Arabic language are you in Arab because um your forefathers are from the Arabian Peninsula and a lot of Arabs

Particularly like north um Africa are bers they’re not even they’re not Arab but most people but most people yeah but most people are ignorant of that so this idea and I think it’s it’s it’s so for example bers are not Arab and some may consider themselves to be black and some

May not consider themselves to be black where they where we going to put them there and and and so to I my issue is that to say that everyone should be um called black it’s problematic because if you’re fair in complexion so you’re white you’re very you are white descriptively

You’re white why should you call yourself say you’re black because you live in Africa and then what do we mean by whiteness is whiteness just mean you’re of European descent and then if we part of European de what part of Europe if you’re from Turkey you might

Not be considered to be white European cuz you look too much like an Arab I me that’s that’s my issue because I think in America again CU in America it’s different in terms of how non-white people are treated your categorize as black I don’t and and I don’t think it

Necessar it it doesn’t work as well in other parts of the world because we haven’t got that same history in terms of like race relation I think when we try to adopt the the American model or their understanding of Blackness we can L because again we need

To create our own again not to say that we shouldn’t work for them but I don’t think you can just copy everything what’s going on in America there their strategies and their Solutions and think it will work out because not everyone even black even amongst black people

There are some and even speaking to some of my relatives like in Nigeria racism is not an issue until you come to this country or the West like they’re not talking about race so this whole idea of Al of black they’re talking about their tribe if you ask

Them where they’re from they’re talking I’m y house or whatever and similar in other African count they’re not talking about I’m black it’s only when you come when you’re on minority in a racialized country then you understand like what Blackness is which is really a social construct and again within Africa and

You know this might be S controversial but even in in this country you’ve got and it’s it’s so ridiculous you’ve got some or many um people of West African descent and Caribbeans were considered to be black and then if you’re from East Africa you’re not black you’re Somali is

This term used here as black minority ethnic it’s even amongst us how we use the term who is Black yeah yeah yeah do you say something yeah no it’s so true like saying about that likein afrian Community there’s a huge issue yeah like you know the older generation you tell them they’re black

They’re not black they’re not black they’re not going to accept that they’re black yeah what do they identify as Arab or they I mean they would say they’ll have Arab to but they say they’re Somali Somali they’re they’re Ethiopian but they’re not they’re not black and even

Among yeah and even amongst a number of like quote unquote black like West African or cariban black but they’re not but so you got black people and then you got saliens it’s ignorance but I’m just saying even amongst ourselves so if you’ve got even amongst a black community not everyone is embracing

Blackness I you say this is the solution for black people yeah no no no so I think you misunderstood how I’m I’m not saying so I’m not saying it yeah I’m just saying in America that might be the case because they’re all considered and regard but I wasn’t talking about actual

Separation from the state in a physical form I was talking more not engaging with say reformist um political ideology so IE you’re separating yourself from say the institutions that the structural I agree with you I’m just saying that if if the people themselves they do not Embrace that identity how do you engage

With them that’s a real that’s that’s like if saying oh yeah oh as black people I’m not black I’m not black I’m not black who you engage it you’re engaging yourself I think that’s where Pana africanist would um their but then even this idea of okay panafrican is or Pana africanism are we

Saying cuz that’s again similar to the one drop if you’ve got um a drop of African blood therefore than you of African descent because if you’re 10% African descent but you know 90% of European descent are you African is your loyalty yeah I mean I I’m I’m I haven’t

Got the answers don’t get me I’m just these are things which when I hear I would say more uh critical um sort of theorists from panafrican I’m saying with when I read a number of pan Africans or when they talk about black people again they’re speaking from like

Anyone from their perspective and their social environment and generally from America it’s very different to the UK or even like for example Brazil which is like in terms of understanding self identity and race relation it’s like America W in steroids so if you’re going to try and adopt that American model

That two white and black and use it in other parts of the world where they themselves self identify as black you’re going to do diservice to them you can’t then say no you are black because in America you’re black yeah that’s where I was saying the whole eurocentric Western

Um narrative is quite you yeah no just sorry I just I was just think about certain things about like the whole concept of how we construct race is very problematic just on a general basis right and then we’re talking about like Malcolm’s identity as a Muslim yeah and

Think there’s a whole complexity to that as well yeah um just because within Islam I think this is huge I mean everyone like kind of talks about it but I mean again it’s this whole concept that we’re taking a very Western eurocentric idea of race and translating that across which is very problematic

Because the way we understand race in Islamic history or even like contextually the way uh Muslim societies are it’s very very different very different so like I mean like one person was saying that in morania for example um where a form of slavery does it still

Exist um you can have someone who you know will look like us black in skin and stuff but they will be considered an Arab they considered an arrow right but someone who might be slightly you know Shades lighter would be uh from a family that come down in slavery and they’re

Still enslaved right I mean they might not have that slavery as but they know like you know they descend from them so I think it’s very like so coming back to I think the understand race in the West and in in in Malcolm’s identity of how

He identified as a Muslim and as a black Muslim it is very problematic if we start putting that into a western context and how race has evolved in the west yeah I think and also I think the other thing that I’ve been thinking is just the issue that um I’m not sure

Whether this is a western Muslim um issue but the way we see as the black Muslim identity is is very I don’t know why we’re always questioning that but the Arab Muslim Identity or the Asian Muslim identity isn’t questioned as that I don’t understand why there’s a question

As to you know your the level of your religious identity associated with your race and I feel like that’s a very much a western problem again because when you go to Africa and you see how Islam has been practiced like in East Africa West Africa where Islam’s been there for a

Very long time it’s evolved to its own culture as well and there’s not that question isn’t being raised there isn’t an Arab Islam there isn’t you know that so I feel like again this is something maybe we need to assess as you know black Muslims or like you know Arab

Asian Muslims living here in the west how do we like how do we how do we understand Islam as well and and culturally I feel like this is where the whole issue is like there’s the the religious aspect and there’s the the the the race identity if we want to see it

And I feel like that will take a different interpretation depending on the context you’re in so and that’s to say that oh this is something wrong it’s it’s just natural yeah that you have the theological beliefs but it’s going to take a different identity depending on where you’re in so those are just

Thoughts of just been you know just thinking that like why is it still problematic as you know as as a as not just only a Muslim Community but just generally I’ve seen even with non-muslims question the whole Muslim you know black identity I don’t understand why that that is you know a

Point of contention in that in that way so Point actually and I’m so glad that you raised it because this is kind of why we have these conversations actually so this is exactly why we have these conversations because I try to invite across the board we invite panafrican

Afro pesimist voices and academic voices and then you’re an author and you’ve got your own you know research that you’ve done on the ground and things like that so we’re very much engaging with voices across the board for this particular reason because that’s why even in this

Group we are a deep Colonial education initiative and we invite all you know critical respectful dialogue so it is really really great that you brought that up and if you want to engage with that actually I agree I agree wholeheartedly with what you said and

It’s just got me thinking as well and I think like you was saying I think it’s mainly a western problem yeah it’s mainly a West it’s mainly a western problem not but then what about M what about mugabi’s um you know sort of di like mgab made some very strong

I’m just thinking you know I’m thinking that um what about on the world stage when you have African leaders uh say no but I’m saying no but it’s like in if you listen and I was thinking about this yesterday when I went to watch um because you can look at it from a

Geopolitical perspective I’m saying when you’re in the west when you’re a non-white person you think about race or L yeah when you’re in Africa you’re not thinking about the white person you understand it totally and again just when I went I watched um what’s that

Film that came out with um the pet queen of cat queen of queen of cat the reason why I found it so refreshing was because obviously 90% to 95% of the characters were black race wasn’t an issue you’re just seeing characters when I’m watching most films and I thought it made me

Question myself when I’m watching most films but isn’t that Disney objective no no no it’s not cuz of Disney Disney and it was actually a good film my point is that when I’m seeing any film in America UK I’m naturally conscious of the black representation how black people why

Black people why is it the black person is a fief do you understand I’m getting I’m thinking about that when I’m watching a film which was like the queen of cist all black people I’m not think I’m seeing the thief I’m seeing the good person I’m not thinking of

Race do you understand I’m getting and I’m saying because we live in obviously we’re the minority we live in a racialized society we sometimes think about it you you could say we think about it too much but it’s our experience cuz you cannot not help but

Feel you you know that you’re black you know you’re asan you know that you’re not white because it’s seen everywhere J it’s going to reflect how you view things but I’m saying that if you’re in an environment where you all like the same um color you don’t think about

Things the way we see it and I think to to a certain extent you mentioned like that’s so true I’ve noticed this cuz just talking to my parents from East Africa Somali Kenyans and just their the way they grew up in the concept of race and identity and religious identity the

Way it’s transformed over the years within just that region it’s really interesting to to just to see and understand like over there I mean it’s a tribalistic just like any other part of sub Saran Africa tribalistic you know like tribes different tribes different religious a religion group religious

Groups but it’s interesting of late there’s this whole new Muslim kind of persecution of that region which when if you talk about when they grew up it was not as much they were not aware of these things until the whole Colonial you know thing that happened and like

Independence and even like now like just seeing the poit foreign politics that’s going on like the influence and that so it’s interesting to see that you know that in itself with with globalization and how it works and how you know Western Powers have so much influence over there it’s being translated across

To Africa itself but the these were not issues that our grandparents were having necessarily I mean it’s funny you said that cuz I’m not I think of my parents and when I speak to my parents or people that’s around their age yeah um race is not an issue yeah and even

Again just coming to your point n about understanding Blackness um amongst a number of West Africans amongst sorry Nigerians um an Asian person is considered to be white that that sounds joing yeah exactly no it’s true no I mean they may well have that in in in their in their

Understanding and even when the language that they use they’ll describe an agian person the same way they’ll describe David Beckham yeah inms the ethnicity like seriously now we might look it like that’s but what about the C ethnicity within that have like African descent no I’m just talking about their perspective

So that’s why I’m saying if you’re going to talk to them about all the black people together you to bring people of agent descent they be I’m just saying that’s just their experience because when they’re looking at anyone who’s basically non like you say dark skin like with strong African

Features is not not even is not black it’s just white and they don’t say in in the man they just you understand I’m getting they don’t demarcate between you know Western European Eastern European and East Asian no they’re all white they’re all like the other do you understand I’m again and that’s the

Language that they use so it’s interesting even like I said um speaking to people from different parts of world and how they view things because like aan said we obviously we can’t help we westernized and the way we view things is very from a western perspective and obiously got the issue of social

Contract of racism and stuff that which you can’t get away from I think in order to come out of that we need to speak to people do not and that’s why traveling is important because you will find that even people from different parts of the world they do not self identify with

This whole kind of concept of Blackness the way especially have especially have black people identify with blackness in America and because and and I’ll argue the reason why so many people in this country identify with the whole the whole concept of Blackness is because of we share the same La America’s kind of

Like Britain’s cousins and we got this similar like language but and I always mentioned Brazil the reason why it’s because they their view of race in terms of Afric is very different to like Americans and like OB and British people and again I would argue because they have been exposed to the

African-American um understanding or perspective of race and obviously their history is very different so I think we need to kind of also speak to other black people or nonwhite people shall we say and I think even even why don’t we call ourselves brown people cuz if we’re

Going to say brown people you can say technically that’s more accurate because we are all different shades of brown you understand than coming under the you know the concept of like black but again that’s just unfortunate I mean there was just one point so on that because it’s

Really important and then I will get to you um when I position myself I’m mixed ethnically speaking so um I have an Afghan Pakistan whatever pashun or whatever um Heritage you could say um when I position myself say when I go to uh Northern Pakistan where obviously my ancestors were colonized by Alexandra

They’re great but they’re not so great um obviously you know um if you have a look at certain indigenous tribes from north um Pakistan um in which my mom belongs um they have like uh blue eyes and they’re basically very fair but they’re not white people obviously and

They don’t actually have European genes either um and they were colonized you know and I would say that when you go to Pakistan also it’s like when I kind of and engaging in conversation with certain um ethnic groups uh positioned in uh sort of um post Colonial urban

Areas um in laor which was very uh you know it has Colonial remains and the buildings are all there and so on and and when you kind of engage in conversation they have this fascination with being white and they have this obsession with whiteness and uh you know

The whole fair and lovely construct and basically um I think that is very important also um when we’re engaging in the in sort of conversations with whiteness and white supremacy that we look at things not only through people’s experience but um through history and historical facts and colonialism um and obviously other Brut

Uh brutal brutal kind of um ISS uh sort of BR brutal brutal historical incidences that obviously evolve from white suprem white supremacy and I think also into contemporary understanding how we translate the history is how we position Africa Asia that was looted pillaged and economically crippled by Europe and European settler States I

Think that we should also kind of look at how African people are positioned on the world stage how Asian people are positioned on the world stage as well and ultimately fair enough Pakistan could be a member of the United Nations but we hold absolutely no track action

Our if we translate it to heel like you know the whole Master Slave dialectic um ultimately the master is still the European and the white man you know and I think these are the Contemporary political so when we look at Blackness and so to cut you off instead of I think

Ultimately where our shared struggle is whether you’re of African descent um Asian desent whatever is fighting white supremacy or european suprem that is that’s where we can all think come together and agree on cuz that’s that’s the anti Blackness within agree it’s resisting but but this

Is where and that’s why I was saying trying to Define what you define uh trying to Define Blackness because if we’re going to use black or Blackness meaning political Blackness meaning incorporating everyone then you won’t fight anti-blackness within Asian communities because we’re all the same so it’s not an issue do you understand

I’m getting that I mean is anti-blackness a product of colonialism is it I mean there’s other this the thing I mean this has been an issue the whole issue of anti-blackness has been an issue even in um Arab communities before the Europeans came into um that’s something which I I I

Spoke about um in one of my books as well and that’s something that this idea and that’s why I’m saying we can’t had a very supremacist yeah but my and the fact that that was an issue before the Europeans came into the Muslim world we can’t blame the Europeans on like

They’re not we can’t blame them for everything that’s my point do you understand cuz it was surprising to me cuz you to ask me uh 10 years ago you know where did what’s with antiblack the Europeans colonialism Western imperialization stuff like that when and when I found out about obviously the

Anti-black um racist sentiments in classic Muslim literature or Arab literature before the Europeans came in from wondering where did this come about I’m getting how how did it come psychology yeah but it’s an issue it’s a problem um I it but colonialism certain changes the direction in which this I

Think ultimately it’s about fighting um white supremacy so even in terms of intellectual intellectualism we look at if you’ve graduated or if you’ve come from like a a quotequote proceded European Institute which again is subjective in terms of what we studying and the methodology and stuff like that

That is more Superior than coming from a then D studying in African or Asian Institute you understand who irresectable whoever taught you so even ourselves we’ve been colonized we’ve been conditioned we can’t get away from that but then there Al also a case of trying to question why we’ve been how

We’ve been conditioned and then try and even so when we’re having these kind of discussions you start to think and reevaluate your own fors cuz I try and do that on a regular basis as well I’m not going to try and pretend that I’m not conditioned I haven’t I um I don’t

Hold some um you can say like white supremacist beliefs in a sense that not I believe that they should be on top but sub subconsciously does it affect of course it does do you I’m getting that so it’s all about trying to have these CP of discussions and speak to different

People and travel whatever and then revalue ourselves and then obious we can help um others as well because one thing I’ve noticed is that a number of like people that are fighting white supremacy and stuff like that they make it as if they’ve not been conditioned at all no

Understand we have to admit ourselves think unlearning that toxic I think I think that’s where Malcolm’s life was so um yeah for so many reasons so inspirational because he questioned himself and he was able to re yeah that and that’s very difficult especially when you’re like in these mid late 30s

And to be going across the country and even across the world preach or something and then to say that I’m wrong because you found the truth that’s very difficult that’s very difficult so that is if anything should be something that I think we can all kind of um we can all

Kind of um learn from and draw inspiration from and the fact that he Al when he was in prison said that he wasn’t one thing that he was someone that’s dedicated to studying and knowledge and reading and he would gladly even as a 30-year-old man I think

Was late 20s go back to high school and sit with like 10 12 how many of us would willing to do that until quite a knowledge again do you understand that that kind of uh that bravery in terms of like not having an ego and stuff like that so I think that’s important

So yes yes oh sorry yeah yeah yeah yeah oh God sorry okay so like we will come to you cuz you haven’t spoken yet it’s saying like um the Americans they don’t see themselves as over here they don’t like people don’t see themselves as black Americans don’t see themselves as

African like they see themselves like some of them like as black Americans if you ask them if they’re African they’ll say no they’re not that’s what Mal was trying to address this whole idea of why because Europeans have projected a negative um per of Africa people want escaped

Africanist but as feel like people wanted to lighten their skin it’s like prevalent all over Asia and things like it’s like people here that want to get something I think personally no no it’s absolutely not it’s a product of a deeply entrenched self-hate and colonialism ties and it didn’t and it

Didn’t exist colonial times ties haven’t been colonized yeah I don’t think that’s arguable I mean it’s questionable as to whether we can okay sorry we’re going to come back to that conversation I just want have to come back to my coms have you finished the book sorry have you

Finished to read the book have I finished reading for myself yeah yeah so what did you learn from number what did I learn from it um when I first read it I first read when I was about 11 or 12 yeah um that’s a good question actually the reason why it’s a good

Question is because when I read it cuz I’ve read it obviously different stage I’ve read it about like eight times I learned different things CU obviously my different different stages I am in my life or whatever but um one of the things which stuck with me

Is um to be proud obviously of your Islamic faith and obviously African Heritage they the two because again as a Muslim and of African descent that’s something that helps me a lot when I was um when I first read it like at 12 years old whatever um and also not being

Afraid to learn and study even if you don’t know something there’s so many things what else did done learn um one thing actually probably one of the most important thing I’ve learned from his life of the book is his bravery and his willingness to sacrifice this probably one of the most

Admirable things I’m admire of him is that he was willing to sacrifice himself for his beliefs and that’s something that very few people are willing to it’s easy to kind of say things when you’re in a safe space but when he was even getting death threats um after they

Firebombed his um his house with his his um his wife and his four daughters in the house he still was willing to speak the truth against or how he how he see it and I just that was just like that is what it was just remarkable to S well like he really

Believed in whatever he was saying even during the period when he’s in Nation of Islam and after and he was able to like I said when he came when he was left the Nation of Islam and then went to Mecca reevaluates he always question himself and that’s something I think as we as

People you you’re never too old to learn something new and to kind of attract some of your statements or your beliefs or your thoughts and another thing there’s a lot of things I’ve learned from an appreciation of black women cuz I’ll be honest his book it did cuz he

Was a lot of what he was saying like speaking to I felt that he was speaking to me that you have been conditioned the same way why you appreciate certain women of a certain but again especially speak as a man obviously living in the west why you

Value certain women of a certain that look a certain way and so so again to make you to make me think why is that so there’s a lot of things but ultimately it’s just the case of um yeah there’s a lot of things that’s a good question really that’s a good

Question but depending on where I where I was um stage of my life it was different things I learned But ultimately it was um as a Muslim to be proud of my Islamic faith number one that’s something that he ended on which um you know despite talking about

Everything he’s gone through he all Praises you to Allah say as a Muslim resonated with me and then his African identity and winess to kind of always educate himself and self-educate as well so not educate go to necessarily go to university he was autodidact someone that’s read and taught himself so it’s

Not about of course it’s good to go to university get these these degrees or whatever but you don’t need someone’s validation to become knowledgeable I think that’s something that you know just read in his book and you know listen to some of his speeches that um I learned from that’s a good

Question thanks sry yeah I just want you to add to that that’s that’s a really really point I was talking I was listening to a talk um on Malcolm X and it was an amazing thing that the speaker was saying that one of Malcolm like I guess the biggest thing you can learn

From him is the fact that he taught himself and like I mean Malcolm even criticized that the American education system the college you know the prestigious colleges that that educate people and and you know his his way like what he was saying that the amount of

Time that he spent in reading a prison and educating himself was probably far more than those students who went to Harvard yeah you know who was supposed to be the well cultured well read you know individual so I think a lot of the times like taking that responsib personal responsibility to educate

Yourself to read everything out there to challenge yourself and get as close to objective knowledge as much as possible is probably one of you know the greatest things that you can learn from from Alin given his background his just Evolution as a character like as a person and a

Character how we’ve gone through that I think it’s so important to learn that um yeah the concept of selfed I think that’s probably one of the reasons that makes Malcolm as as for me like personally as a character someone who transcends race religion all this thing

Like you know this is this is kind of like humanity and its greatest kind of form so I think yeah definitely adding to that point of self-education it’s so important perect did anybody else James I always value his input um I think that sometimes you pick up on

Things that perhaps people um don’t so do you have anything else to add yeah um I think he’s one of those really important figures in especially in the black R competition um where whereby he was just one of those people who um um who set up to redefine

Standards um of eth behavior but at the same time um um you know to to emphasize the validity and the legitimacy of that life to say that you know um for me anyway um he wasn’t like an afop pessimist he wasn’t saying black life is

Just you know it’s just kind of a dead horse that we that we should FL if we stick with it um if we stay within the conditions that’s the only way we’re going to change you know change black life for everybody not just black people but the

Black life we just to say that you know black clim is synonymous with you know what life and American life that to say that you know slavery is important colonialism is important the facts being objective about it but but also you know using these to look ahead to be you know

To be Progressive and futuristic yeah thanks um do you want to engage with that or can I bring in another really sort of question that is like burning um so basically the conversation that we had slightly earlier the idea that um actually how do brown people engage in

Sort of black struggle you know because for example and I had a conversation with CLE beny um unfortunately we didn’t have it in a session it had to be filmed because he was unable to attender session and he was only here for 2 to 3 days and he’s originally from Arizona in

The US and he’s of Native American uh uh sort of he’s Native American or you could say yeah let’s call him Native American you know let’s go with that because it’s the most commonly uh it’s a common term and and I guess everyone will know what I’m speaking about so

He’s Native American and obviously um the us as it is is a settler State it’s a European set State and it’s built obviously on the mass Graves of Native Americans um and CLE beny spoke about the Holocaust of the Native uh Americans um and it’s not only the north

Obviously the holocost happened in the south in South America as well um and Latin is actually uh sort of uh the term used due to Colonial colonialism you know so I just go with South America because I think it’s a a sort of more appropriate term although obviously uh

Seak is the term that they refer to South American continent um but uh yeah so Native American people so engaging in say uh the genocide and also the Holocaust of Native American people uh and how they were brutalized uh by the European settlers um how do we engage with Colonial

History and sort of basically this sort of very brutal um incidences that obviously came about uh in history how do brown people and me as I said I’m from the Asian uh continent and our Colonial brutal history um Afghanistan Pakistan India um you know and then we

Have uh the African Holocaust in Congo uh and other arguable other genocides and things like this uh that resulted um due to Europe an um so I guess what I’m trying to say is that how can we engage in conversation with the black uh struggle because I think often being

Pakistani like there’s not much uh sort of anti-colonialist uh uh sort of resistance from Pakistan you know uh from what is known as Pakistan today basically and I seek a lot of my inspiration from uh black revolutionaries uh Dr KH Muhammad being one of them and I guess what I’m saying

Is but then again um uh as you said there’s much introspection that I need to do and ensure that I never I’m complicit in cuz I never want to be complicit in any sort of form of sort of whitewashing flat resistance at the same time so I guess what I’m saying is how

Can we engage in this sort of uh struggle um as a collective without diluting down um any any sort of you know uh form of B and existance um question I guess it’s engaging the complexities of the struggle and no but I I think you’re doing it what you’re doing now the work

You’re doing and the reason why I’m saying that is because you’re not so you being brown black what have you want to self identify you know Asian people right and like you said um the whole kind of cuz this this is something that I’ve never never really understood as

Well this is something that I kind of wanted to speak a little bit about is that why is it cuz I know a number of Asian and when I do a number of events funny enough um most of the people that attend and most of the organizers are

Asian are not black most of the when I go to most universities whatever the the blacks most of the black students are interested in partying africaribbean Society they’re not interested in um learning about the history and stuff like that and I was one of them so I’m

Not going to start speak but is and but a lot of the that’s why even when I saw the whole issue with um you know Zan Malik and uh um Sadi Khan I was kind of troubled by but then at the same time I thought to myself do

You know what most events I go to asan support as much if more than black people if I’m honest and not doing it because they just would like like you said so in terms of trying to identify with um figures that are resisting like white supremacy um and uh European

Imperialization stuff like that they can they can relate to a lot of black figures CU they’re the ones that are speaking out against it and I myself I can’t think of many Asians that speak out against so I don’t I I don’t know like in terms of what you

Would do to be to be totally honest the only thing I could say is when you’re dealing with issues within Asian Community because you know the community better than anyone else you know how to do you understand you know where people mind at the same way like when aan was

Mentioned and I was speaking about our parents could you convince them to talk about the importance of Blackness and race you couldn’t cuz it’s for them it’s not it’s a nonconcept do you understand so the people that are affected by it which are mainly people that are living

In the western society and especially young people cuz they’re condition from a young age that’s where I would kind of you would cuz you wouldn’t want them to have an inferiority compan I’m saying but for older people who not I’m not saying you ignore older people but it’s

Not it’s a nonissue to them or like as my dad says he’s talking about you’re talking about racism and stuff that where I’ve come from it’s blacks are killing blacks and to come from where how again most say was in a really bad situation but how it is now they don’t

Mind coming here and suffering RAC that’s again not to say that racism is fine but me born in this country grow up in this country I’m not going to start saying you need you should be talking about racism and the CU it’s not it’s non issue from where they’ve come from

What I’m getting at but is it though because of the history from where they’ve come from and un but for where they’ve come from cuz ultim most people they just want to better their lives but didn’t Malcolm speak about this didn’t he speak about the educ educating about

Our history yeah but necessar who’s he speaking to but not necessarily obviously saying that we do this whole preaching no no not preaching but like I he was mainly speaking to African-Americans but did he he go to Africa he did of course he went to Africa but I’m saying when he was going

To Africa and he was speak and then he was going back to African Amer but that’s just how he was positioned you know he didn’t choose to be position no my point is he was trying to connect but I’m saying that if you’re going to Africa and trying to teach them the

Importance of African history history and things like that and they kind of already we it but it’s not that important they just want a better their life because that’s Survival they have no choice right it’s not even no it’s not survival there’s a lot of people in Africa that’s living like especially

When you see the that’s stand up I endorsing that queen of catway for reason why I’m so good you saw Rich Africans you saw poor Africa there wasn’t just do you understand the stereotypical image of Africa being poor so when you’re look no no no I’m I’m

Speaking about say but I is my point is that okay for Asians or like non-black people I think think the people that are like passionate about fighting um white supremacy and okay just need to need to be honest in terms of their own community and in

Terms of in terms of need need to be honest in terms of tackling their own Community because one thing which I always ask like some my Asian friends my wife what do you say behind clothes laws about black people I just want to know I’m not going to get offended a lot of

People won’t tell me cuz I just want I just want to understand okay how do you get this type of thinking why do you think like cuz it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s endemic in many in the subconscious or not even sub it’s in many people’s um psyches that black people whether it’s

An asan Comm Arab Community the Chinese community that black people are the lowest of the law so have you traced that psychology so you were saying not byproduct of which isible some of it no some of it is but I just want to know like even those who are educated they

Still have this like black is B and those who even fighting against is they’re not like having honest conversation with myself and I was like okay I’m not saying that you are racist but why where what do they say like what type of things do they say do you I’m

Getting because there’s a number of people that when it comes to entertainment or even education they they don’t want listen to say and I can guarantee they say in the Asian Community what I know what they say they might not say certain uh sentiments in front of me honestly because I don’t

Take but I will be saying this though what I have seen is that if they don’t averly dis uh display um an Blackness um they definitely display the whole worshiping the whiteness do you understand the whiteness is a construct a a eurocentric beauty ideals and everything so you see this in the psyche

Of like really I would say and that’s more that’s a lot more prevalent and they can be open about it and they might not necessarily hold back on it you know what I mean so you can see that uh form of self pain and obviously the way they would treat um do

Uh and we have very dark and South Asians and I was speaking about the cidi tribe um which obviously they’re from South uh sorry um Africa Southeast Africa and um I think it’s Southeast Africa and East Africa anyways but um you have this kind of uh ongoing but I

Think we’re not talking only um in a sort of Geo uh we’re not talk about say Geo so where you’re position GE geographically but rather across the board Al uh yes across the board um how we can even engage in say um a Native American all right okay yeah for me it’s

For me to understand I understand not I don’t understand the extent in in the sense of what’s happened to the indigenous people of the Americans do you understand that’s where I need to listen cuz the same way like for example we talk about what’s happening like poli police brutality in America and what

They’re doing to Black people but what’s what’s happened or what is happening what’s happened to indigenous Americans not only in North America but South America we don’t talk about so that’s where again we need to those coming from those backgrounds or those who better educated I I’ll need to listen not to

Just talk about my own I think this history is a vital to um but learning from someone’s perspective because history is is what’s it saying it’s written history is persective uh as and a broad voice because this what I tried to as I was trying to say I want to

Invite people for my entire it’s good it’s good that it’s good that you’re doing that because naturally like and I’m not going to make no claims I’m objective but I’m not no one is but I’m coming from a perspective and you got other people come from perspective which

Is good and then you can the more different perspectives that you listen to then you can make your own opinion which I think is important so you’re doing that so that’s why I think you just need to continue doing what you’re doing everyone need to continue doing in

Terms of trying to eradicate ultimately through education but different ways some people be social media some people different it’s conversations but you know your people community better than anyone else it’s not for me to say this is where you have to tackle it do you something and just on a really quick

Point um in relation to the point you made about Africa being rich absolutely and everyone knows that who studied uh history that Africa was very rich um was and still is still is yeah and still is was and still is just to be clear but I

Wanted to make a point but it was and still is however colonialism did um economic um to some respect yes but we need to stop making excuses because if you go to no I’m not speaking about excus I’m talking about from a structure yes I agree

But just a structural me as like a Nigerian I’m troubled that I can go to Nigeria and you have the like the nicest house fattest house you can imagine Mansion everything and right next to it you’ve got people this why I was dra just if you let me allow me to finish my

Actual point was uh why I use the term survival because I’m always speaking to the Working Class People so um I noticed that you haven’t actually made a critique of claw struggle I think it comes down to what sorry I forgot your name j James James said

About not even just about Blackness is about human beings and what I mean by that is that some I’m not saying people in Africa are greed what about class struggle IE working when I’m speaking I’m always speaking to the workingclass people in Asia the working class people but you

Know some of those Working Class People even in Nigeria if they became the middle class or you know the elit they will behave exactly where Elites are behaving what do you mean by that set mentality it’s mentality that’s seriously it’s a set mentality that’s the thing that’s is the mentality so

Like obviously naturally when you people saw poverty 10 years ago living exactly the same exactly the but there’s also a set mentality psychology I’m talking about a class by the way just for the camera um we changed memor and I had people uh in the past accused me of editing out certain

Conversations I have not edited out any conversation that was a memory change by the way um and I tried to get it all on camera because I’ve been accused of certain things I think it’s good having these different conversations what the different perspectives to say right do

You want to know what Asians say behind closed doors about black people right now and you can’t ASI please do speak what do Africans say about Asian people behind a lot of what African I’m not going to speak all Africans all black people but generally like for example Mark Nigerians right

Yeah um okay I’m generalizing here but a number of Nigerians might make fun of West Indians like Caribbeans because like they’re not as academically inclined that’s the perspective as Africans right but it’s not like a hatred they might prefer that their sons or daughters marri some from their same

Ethnic tribe but the hatred I don’t really I don’t know maybe IR can say I don’t sorry whose hatred are you speaking about amongst black people I don’t really amongst black people towards Asians I pr racist I don’t I’m not saying black people I’m not racist

But I don’t know what it is but so many RAC racism there might be some no there some black people might are racist they might think they are super I don’t think racism I don’t think bad people can be racist though coming to my definition I said only

You see that’s why you see what I mean this is why I Define oh wait oh you see because now when we think of racism we think of structural racism that’s why people say things like black people but why don’t you just use the term xenophobia cuz that is the

Definition of racism also add you know this is this is all context honestly it’s all cont it’s interesting we’re having this conversation go to certain places forget race we’re talking about tribalism you come down like this is all structure it’s all like context that you’re speaking of so I think that’s a danger

Of like generalizing and getting a broader like attitude towards all of this cuz it’s very danger to do this like we’re speaking about this like that go to for example uh probably you know uh Yemen or Somalia right you talk about tribes tribes you’re discriminating

People just as just as way as the whole racial construct Works depending on which tribe come from so the concept of race doesn’t even exist for them like they could be looking the same but just because genealogic you’re from the wrong tribe you’re going to be you’re going to

Be you know completely just yeah alienated in that way but the only difference with racism um is that because again racism in terms of the belief not structur racism because you can if you if you’re judging someone by the way they look you can’t get away

With that the reason why I think like if you’re black right you’re always going to be black what I mean by that if you’re um mixed race or if you’re Arab but you you know you’re politically black and all the rest of it you can chop and change when it suits you if

You’re black like black afcan like myself I can’t be nothing but black I can go to any and that’s why I’m that’s why it’s different because you can have someone that’s a strong advocate for black people but very fair and complexion but they might after I want

To try something else and they can blend into mainstream Society no matter what I do I can dye my hair I can wear different nose faces I can wear earring I can wear different clothes I’m still going to be looked at differently because I’m clearly African that’s why

I’m that’s why I wanted to get in the beginning Define what I mean by black and not use the political black term because as much as just I think it’s important that non-white people come together I can’t I can’t um be I can’t come across as something I’m something

Something as someone that’s someone that’s I can’t accom being someone that’s something that that’s not of African descent basically whereas basically everyone else that is kind of racially Ambiguously looking can if you got rid of the social constructs of race which like in terms of Nations stuff

Like that you still have peoples so like you have citic peoples you have um Caucasians indos you wouldn’t know where they’re from okay someone an Arab right okay an Arab istic no know but I’m saying Arab can go to someone like a different part of the world like

Venezuela for example they can possibly can blend in an African yeah whether you’re from um like a you the matter where you going be treated a certain way that’s my point so and that’s why it’s no other people got that part from black people or clearly African looking black people

That’s why is your concept oface a biological concept my concept of race no I don’t believe in the concept I don’t believe in the concept common thre I I don’t believe no I don’t believe in concept of of race cuz as we know it’s a social constract but I’m just saying

That yeah but social constract anything no it is it is you said like an go to Venezuela okay stereotypic no why mean by stereotypic in Africa cuz even I’m using terms you can be a North African like I think me yeah and sorry I’m not

Using not me us as an example but which I am but you can go to Brazilian to to Brazil fit in and she’s Brazilian no question where you from what’s the Heritage yeah but I’m just I’m just no I’m just you can go to you can come across has being Spanish from different

Parts of world even American and you can blend as she looks I can’t I’m always going to be considered an African I would I would she would she would and aan would even yourself I don’t know where you’re from but just again I don’t you could

Be’s no I I’m not no I’m not saying it in a I’m just saying that you could pass off as an Arab you can pass off as an age understand so you can blend in so although you might be politically black and advocate for black people you can

You can take your of the gas if you wanted to that’s just being honest I couldn’t so that’s why it’s it’s diff it’s different for black Africans do you understand what I’m getting at it’s a total different especially like um the issue of like uh like black beauty and

Stuff like that because as much as people want to kind of defend it they can okay I want to try something else but if you’re like a black woman you’re a black woman do you understand I’m getting that’s why I think other rat I don’t think theyve really understood so

Is it just based on perception cu if I look it’s not it’s not perception because it’s reality because I’m a I’m a black and I’m African as well no you are but yeah so it it’s perception you’re right so it’s perception because I might perceive it to be okay I don’t know

Where you look Brazilian I you’re Brazilian you look do understand again you could be African you but and you can blend in and not have those issues because of the way you look whereas if you’re black African but that’s from an black African perspective not from a Brazilian foreign amican perspective

What you mean not from Brazilian that’s just your perception not from a Brazilian perspective a Brazilian okay Brazil met Brazilians whoar see me as an African person okay in Brazil the more African you look and darker you are the more um discriminated you are against I’ve been to five times I’ve spent

Number of months in Brazil and that’s a reality so even though a number of brail look like it’s sometimes of complexion and in Brazil I’ll be considered to be black and you’ll be considered to be black you’ll be treated even you know you can pass off as white which I didn’t

Go into in terms of understanding Blackness it’s not only race it’s hair texture so the more finer your hair is the more you can kind of je and I’m not I’m not I’m not trying to say that you’re less black I’m not don’t I’m not saying that at all but I’m just saying

That when you’re clearly black you got Escape it if you look if you look ra ambiguous between the perception about this and the treatment you and the class okay so the I would I structures they’re not two separate things atic of the same pH no no but I would argue that the treatment

Of I think we’re going to go into probably another I hate what you’re saying but I’m just conscious of time um but it’s you’ve been this been really enjoyable I should actually enjoyed it cuz um again if I’ve said anything that has offended anyone so what joking it’s

Not but it’s important that we have like conversations and again just different people having different perspectives and we can agree to disagree kind of thing I just thank you for inviting and it’s an open discussion and dialogue and if anybody wants to further engage with

Brother Habib do let me know we could do it by email as well and things like that but let’s wrap it up yeah and I’m so glad that you’ve enjoyed it and we can invite you back for uh further discussions um and even perhaps even you

Know uh have your book as the talking point um essentially because I think it’s a very important book but the only one I’ve read is the um the one with the orange cover essentially and I read that a few years ago so do forgive me but um I read it a

Few years ago um it was called Illuminating uh the darkness yeah that’s the one I’ve read um North Africans uh and Africans right North African blacks and North Africans you entitled it okay sure um that was the only one I’ve actually read and I read it a few years

Ago but we’ll definitely it’s all but thank you very much to everybody coming um but let’s call it a day because we are 10 minutes over the time so it’s not too bad um but yeah thank you again uh to everybody um oh next week is the next

Session and it’s with the Nation of Islam the minister as I said um we’re purely inviting him to engage in conversation on a political level not a theological level as I said um and that will be on the 4th of November at 700 p.m. so um 4th of November and please

Look out on Facebook for marketing regarding that thank you very much people you saw poverty 10 years ago living exactly the same Elite exact it’s like but there’s also a setal I’m not talking about psychology I’m talking about a class by the way just for the camera um we changed memory

And I had people uh in the past accuse me of editing out certain conversations I have not edited out any conversation that was a memory change by the way um and I tried to get it all on camera because I’ve been accused of certain things in the good having these

Different conversations what the different perspectives to say right do you want to know what Asians say behind closed doors about black people right and you can’t speak with all Asian ASI please do speak what do Africans say about Asian people behind Okay a lot of

What Afric I’m not going to speak on all African black people but generally like like for example M Nigerians right yeah um I’m generalizing here but a number of Nigerians might make fun of West Indians like Carib because like they’re not as academically inclined that’s the perspective as Africans right but it’s

Not like a hatred they might prefer that their sons or daughters marry some from their same ethnic tribe but the hatred I don’t really I don’t know maybe iron can say I don’t sorry who hatred are you speaking about amongst black people I don’t really amongst black people towards

Asians I be racist I don’t I’m not saying black people I’m not racist but I don’t know what it is but so many racism there might be some no some black people might are racist they might think they are superior but I don’t think racism I don’t think black people can be

Racist though coming to my definition I said ear you see that’s why you see what I mean this is why I Define oh wait oh you see because now when we think of racism we think of structural racism that’s why people say things like black people but why don’t you just use the

Term xenophobia cuz that is the definition of racism a dictionary you know this is that’s is a honly it’s it’s interes we’re having this convers go to certain places forget race we’re talking about tribalism you come down like this is all structure and it’s all like context that you’re

Speaking of so I think that’s a danger of like generalizing and getting a broader like attitude towards all of this cuz it’s very dangerous to do this like we’re speaking about this like that go to for example uh probably you know uh Yemen or Somalia right you talk about tribes tries you’re discriminating

People just as this is way the whole racial construct work depending on which tribe you come from yeah so the concept of race doesn’t even exist for them like they could be looking the same but just because genealogically you’re from the wrong tribe you’re going to be you’re

Going to be you know completely just yeah alienated in that way but the only difference with racism um is that because again racism in terms of the belief not struct to racism because you can if youly go judging someone by the way they look you can’t get away with that the reason

Why I think like if you’re black right you’re always going to be black what I mean by that if you’re um mixed race or if you’re Arab but you you know you’re politically black and all the rest of it you can chop and change when it suits

You if you’re black like black Africa like myself I can’t beay nothing but black I can go to any and that’s why I’m that’s why it’s different because you can have someone that’s a strong advocate for black people but very fair in complexion but they might after I

Going to do try something else and they can blend into mainstream Society no matter what I do I can dye my hair I can wear different nose pierces I can wear an earring I can wear different clothes I’m still going to be looked at differently because I’m clearly African

That’s why I’m i’ that’s why I wanted to again in the beginning Define what I mean by black and not use a political black term because as much as yes I think it’s important that nonwhite people come together I can’t I can’t um be I can’t come course something um

Something something as someone that’s someone that’s I can’t accom being someone that something that that’s not of Africa that’s that basically whereas basically everyone else that is kind of racially Ambiguously looking can if you got rid of the social constructs of race which like in terms of Nations and stuff

Like that you still have peoples so like you have citic peoples you have um Caucasians IND there but you wouldn’t know where they’re from okay someone an Arab right okay an Arab is no know but I’m saying Arab can go to someone like a different part of the

World like Venezuela for example and they can possibly can blend in an African whether you’re from senagal um like a you the matter where you you going to be treated a a certain way that’s my point so and that’s why it’s no other people got that part from black

People or clearly African looking black people that’s why is your concept of race a biological concept then my concept of race no I don’t believe in the con I don’t believe in the concept Common Thread no I I don’t believe no I don’t believe in the concept of of race cuz as

We know it’s a social contract but I’m just saying that yeah but social construct anything no it is is you said that an can go to Venezuela okay what stereotypically no what I mean by stereotypic in afri because even how I’m using terms you can be a North African

Like I think me yeah and sorry I’m not using not me use you as an example but which I am but you can can go to Brazilian to to Brazil fit in and she’s Brazilian no question where you from what’s her Heritage yeah but I’m just

I’m just no I’m just you can go to you can come across as being Spanish from different parts of even American and you can blend as she looks I can’t I’m always going to be considered an African I would I would she would she would and Ayan would even yourself I

Don’t know where you’re from but just again I don’t you could Grand came no I I’m not I’m not saying it know I’m just saying that you could pass off as an Arab you can pass off as an as understand so you can blend in so although you might be politically black

And advocate for black people you can you can take your for of the gas if you wanted to that’s just being honest I couldn’t so that’s why it’s it’s diff it’s different for black Africans do you understand what I’m getting at it’s a total different especially like um the

Issue of like uh like black beauty and stuff like that because as much as people want to kind of defend it they can okay I want to try something else was if you’re like a black woman you’re a black woman do you understand I’m getting that that’s why I think other

Race I don’t think they really understood so is it just based on perception because if I look it’s not perception because it’s reality because I’m a I’m a black and I’m African as well no you are but yeah so it’s perception you’re right so it’s perception because I might perceive into

Be okay I don’t know way you look Brazilian I you’re Brazilian you look you could be African you but and you can blend in and not have those issues because of the way you look whereas if you’re black African but that’s from an black African perspective not from a

Brazilian foreign Aman perspective what do you mean not from Brazilian that’s just your perception what do you mean not from a Brazilian perspective like a Brazilian okay Brazil I met Brazilians who see me as an African person okay in Brazil the more African you look and darker you are the more um discriminated

You are against I’ve been to Brazil five times I’ve spent number of months in Brazil and that’s a reality so even though number of Brazil look like sometimes of complex and in Brazil I’ll be considered to be black and you’ll be considered to be black you’ll be treated even you know

You can pass off as white which I didn’t go into in terms of understanding Blackness it’s not only race it’s hair texture so the more finer your hair is the more you can kind of and I’m not I’m not I’m not trying to say that you’re

Less black I’m not don’t I’m not saying that at all but I’m just saying that when you’re clearly black you got Escape it if you look if you look raci ambiguous between the perception yeah and the treatment you and the CL okay so the treat I I structures they’re not twoo

Separate sympatic of the same phom no but I would argue that the treatment of I I think we’re going to go into probably another I hate what you’re saying but I’m just conscious of time um but it’s you’ve been this been really enjoyable I should actually enjoyed it

Cuz um again if I’ve said anything that has offended anyone so what joking it’s not but it’s important that we have like conversations and again just different people having different perspectives and we can agree to disagree kind of thing I just thank you for inviting and it’s an

Open discussion and dialogue and if anybody wants to further engage with brother Hab do let me know we could do it by email as well and things like that but let’s wrap it up yeah and I’m so glad that you’ve enjoyed it and we can invite you back for uh further

Discussions um and even perhaps even you know have your book as the talking point um essentially because I think it’s a very important book but the only one I’ve read is the um the one with the orange cover essentially and I read that a few years

Ago so do forgive me but um already a few years ago um it was called Illuminating uh the darkness yeah that’s the one I’ve read um North Africans uh and Africans right blacks and North Africans blacks and North Africans you entitled it okay sure um that that was

The only one I’ve actually read and I read it a few years ago but we’ll definitely it’s all but thank you very much to everybody coming um but let’s call it a date because we are 10 minutes over the time so it’s not too bad um but

Yeah thank you again uh to everybody um oh next week is the next session and it’s with the Nation of Islam the minister as I said um we’re purely inviting him to engage in conversation on a political level not a theological level as I said um and that will be on

The 4th of November at 700 p.m. so um 4th of November and please look out on Facebook for our marketing regarding that thank you very much

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