Got her Ass well good morning everyone and every day we rise is a great day to be alive and welcome to por coffee talks Morning Show I’m slim and we have our host other hosts uh Leah and the colonel is taking a little break today but uh we have some
Other special guests with us we have Dr Bruce Copeland who is a a regular on on the show uh it’s been a while but good morning Dr Bruce good morning and we have uh Sherry Parker I almost call her Sher brown but that’s her M name that
Was her name in the neighborhood in the hood and we have Wesley van uh from Atlanta well around Atlanta nobody lives in Atlanta anymore nobody everybody lives around Atlanta but anyway we we’re here this morning we’re going to talk about something and and when I thought of this subject I got
A some things from some people saying wow you know you sure you want to talk about that and you know and and I thought about it and then I started looking at videos about colorism and I think all of us had experiences with that growing up or or kind of know what
Was going on back then and it’s something that still might be sort of prevalent today so I said said yeah let’s talk about this because uh you know it could be a historical sharing of about colorism and compared to racism for people who don’t know about it or it
Could be something that uh people just might want to talk about because they experienced it but uh Dr Bruce I want you to start us off with this but before you do that you know talking about should we talk about this so I have a little something you want I want you to
Listen to and these are young kids talking about pism colorism is discrimination against those with Dr skin tone it usually happen in the same ethnic group most people think colorism and racism is the same thing but it’s not an example of colorism is team light skin and team dark skinn and although
Colorism is inherently anti-black colorism is not so black and white that it’s multi-racial and it shows up everywhere it’s like if you see an ad you might not think that you’re like being influenced by the person’s race but you’re like subconscious being influenced you producers should not
Gather people for the music of their skin tones it should be based off of their talent colorism can be really detrimental to a child’s self perception and confidence and it really hurts them especially when it comes from their loved ones or family members they can show up and Indian commercials it’s
Everywhere it’s Universal it not just focus on one skin color or one Community it’s time to end colorism and our fight for Liberation we have to make sure that the standard of beauty is inclusive every skin tone is beautiful okay as U you might wonder if talking about colorism is relevant today
You just heard a bunch of young kids Young Folks talking about it so it’s something that uh still deserves discussion I believe and Dr Bruce uh you know a definition of of colorism and I I put that in the title as far as versus racism because colorism is uh was
Prevalent in our communities and and in some cases it still is and a lot of other communities so uh is it comparable to to racism you know is that fair to compare even compare it to racism or is it a form of racism uh talk about that
Starting out with the definition of of your definition of colorism um I I really do just think that colorism is a issue where people show um higher regard for a person who is of a lot of complexion um and and um I don’t know if
It’s if it’s a comparison or not I think that whether it’s racism or colorism they are both um um signs of ignorance on the part of the person who has the who who have those um biases um it’s kind of interesting to me that anybody would be uh struggling with
The issue of colorism when 80% of all people on Earth are people of color right so the idea that somebody has a issue with somebody of color and then um the question becomes exactly where does colorism begin at what complexion do you fall into a category of people who experience some type of
Um um lesser quality of respect because because of your complexion so I mean how light do you have to be um or how dark do you have to be so um I just think it’s a real sign of ignorance and I’m not sure why well I guess I am sure as
It relates to the historical background for that type of treatment based on um slavery because when we um came to America I don’t think colorism was an issue we kind of saw each other in the same shade of black but um through um slavery and interracial
Um um birth we’ve begun to have a broader range of complexions and I think that um it’s just another tool to separate us now if people outside of our race um use color to distinguish us or um give lesser or more attention to a particular complexion of people that’s
One thing but I think colorism is um most egregious when within our we share those same perceptions so um yeah that’s my perspective on colorism you know let me mention too let me mention aah that uh Dr Bruce Copeland is a licensed clinical social worker uh psychotherapist uh sees patients so uh
He’s our resident expert that that we bring in from time to time for those who don’t know but Leah you was yeah um as I listened to Bruce um reminded me of a story told by Bill Gates about when he went to Yale and he said that he was invited to this event
On the campus of Yale and a brown paper bag was placed upon the door and if you were darker than that brown paper bag you were not allowed to enter into the event and he went on to talk about this was even practiced and many of our fraternities sororities as well as in
Our churches uh for for many years and it all is just a carryover From Slavery you know doing slavery if you were a lighter skinned slave you worked inside the house if you’re the darker skinned slave you worked out in the field so it’s really a carryover of I guess AO
Almost like that Willie Lynch syndrome that that we carry within us uh from slavery as well as even today uh I I work with kids in the community I’ve had my kids out in the community and people would walk up if I can have two children
With me and they would walk up to the lighter skinned kid and talk about how beautiful they are and you’re so cute and you’re this and that but not once mentioned that darker skinn care kid who is with me uh at that particular event so it’s still being practice within our
Community uh you know as children you say if if you’re white you’re all right if your black get back you know and and it’s still something yeah if your brown stand around you know so if you’re yellow you’re mellow or something if you’re yellow you’re mellow exactly so you know
It’s something that’s still being practiced uh to some degree within our community I think it’s something that all of us have experienced growing up is you I think we have we have three people up here from the same neighborhood of truckton which would be Leah and Sher
And myself and you know as you talk about colorism we knew it was it was going on but in our community you know we had uh large families you know and some of the families you would see that were maybe all of them were darker skin or all of
Them were lighter skin then you had the families that that had it mixed you know different colors with the same parents so and I I didn’t see an issue there it made me think about you know the colorism when it came in at least in this area it was attached to uh a
Socioeconomic status as well is anybody would anybody agree with that because you know I I didn’t see colorism in our neighborhood but some of some other areas you saw that and it was attached to you know people on on a different level economically uh I saw that growing up SL
You know uh right there in Portsmouth uh you had the watch family and the cens and they were they were very people of a lighter Hue and it seemed like to me as a kid growing up they had they were people of means and wealth I mean you
Know even growing up Daryl green and I were the best of friends and in the mid 60s we could go into a uh uh with they still had countertops in the pharmacy there was one that Alexander corn in particular that we would go in as a group and greeny would always get waited
On way before I would uh within my own family uh the Vans if you look at uh my grandmother and her two sisters the Sinar girls were of a great lighter Hue and when they got married they married very dark Men actually and uh as My grandmother used
To say always look out for your children which became part of the families you know you you did that uh also just recently I was in uh my wife’s hometown of nacadish Louisiana and that’s uh one of the first parishes there in Louisiana but it’s very the it’s it’s the history of nacad
Dises it was founded and started I believe it was uh uh what did they call called not M Creole Creo Creo and and this whole thing and it got distorted because Creos became um they were the original Creos were Spanish and France it was a com combination with a little African slave
Blending it in and then as time grew through Louisiana and I’m I can use Louisiana because that to me is one of the mil pots of colorism because it and and they were very very distinct about it you know uh uh there again back in Virginia
You had uh what’s that town Charles City Virginia where everybody in that they’re all related that and and and they they did that because they wanted to keep that Hue within the family that’s right uh and as children you know we we grew up in the 50s and
60s doing segregation and and people would um my grandmother was one of those that would be downtown and I would see her and because I was of one of the grandchildren of the do Hugh I wouldn’t be spoken to when she would be downtown conducting business uh because she might have been
Passing we had a whole lot especially the that uh that pass and and and we were put into like you were saying Dr Bruce we were we were put into that because of the ignorance those people that were in control and had and had the power uh
That Willer L syndrome I’m so glad to hear you say that Leah because I had written that down as a note you know that was one of the things I don’t know if that if Willie Lynch was real or not I’ve there’s yeah they’re still debating
As to whether it was true you know yeah yeah but the concept of it of the win letter itself when they said to keep us divided it was one of those things that they use you know I wonder what would happen as as I thought about this and
Looked it up what would have happened if if if very coarse hair was actually the good hair how about that and to be extremely dark skinned was the way that we were supposed to be if if and and it seems to me Doc help me with this this
This seems to me to be just a a a a mind concept it’s like I said in the city of pouth and down in Louisiana and deep down in the South we really did get caught up in that light-skinned dark skin you know and and it’s so funny when
Lyn F and I first started dating and I carried our home somebody said oh Wes you got you one of them lightskinned girls uhuh and she said she said wait a minute hold up I’m not lightskinned that’s old baby here in P if you are I didn’t realize until I went to her
Hometown in nadesh how dark she was because they were she and her mother were considered to be dark skinn in Louisiana because of the they they got basically black folks that look like white folks down there you know they church with it I was the darkest thing
In there and I said I thought you said this was an all black Catholic Church she said it is I said I don’t see no black folks up in here you know but they were but they were and and that’s that’s been and like I said now help me see if
If we had started out in history long years ago 400 years ago where we wen’t considered to be as divided where the w l syndrome hadn’t kicked in what would this world be like today even in countries like India that’s another one that they have yeah it’s going in the dark and you
Can’t go into certain doorways to this day you still in some smaller cities and W let me uh let me get the Sherry in here because uh you know sometime we can be our own worst enemies I I I think about some of the uh things the uh terms we
Used to use in our own community and we’ve all heard it they would say oh that’s a nice looking man or woman to be so dark yeah I mean use those terms or like you know Beauty was you know wasn’t supposed to be dark or about the women if uh they
Want a beauty queen they would say she’s a whole lot of yellow wasted and I’ve heard people use that and you know and you know these are terms that we’re using against I mean for our own people so that’s why I wanted to share it you
Know because a lot of people when they think about colorism they they think about the the the issues that darker skinned people had uh you know Sher You’ being of a lighter Hue you know you had some issues too what people would probably prejudge you because of your color
Because of your lightskinn you know saying she thinks she’s all that before they even know who you were know you exactly so you had those issues too it wasn’t just for the people of doer H you know and I wan to go back talk about your experience something Wesley said it
Was really funny when he said talking about people from Charles City and again my father is from Charles City Charles City County and so and a lot of my relatives are from there but I met a woman in Portsmouth years ago when I was doing foster care and she was a foster
Parent I’d never seen her before and I went and I met her introduced myself and she said she said you know what you look like one of them Charles City girls and I was I was shocked I was like why would you why would you say that and I said
Well my father’s from Charles City she was also from Charles City and for whatever reason because of my my skin color and whatever she picked me out as being from Charles City which I thought was just so odd but um I think uh we were talking slim and I were talking
Before and I said you know um when I went to college uh I got there and it’s like you I went to women Mary which was a whole different kind of thing for me but once I got there uh I will tell you I had the biggest
Afro any they used to compare me to Angela Davis because it was like I had to prove almost my blackness to people because I was of a fair skin and like you say slim people will say oh you think you’re better than other people and that was never a situation with me
And one of the reasons I think is because of my mother my mother was so um I don’t want to say I don’t know how to quite put it but the word that comes to me is somewhat militant yes she was without a doubt she was she was the type of person
Who would going to a store with us and if there was a white person in a black and and she was there and and they came in after her well of course they went to to white on white person and my mother I mean she just at that time when I was
Young it was somewhat embarrassing but my mother would step up and she would say I was here first and you need to wait on me first and white people kind of step back but my mother did not um she really made us not look into colorism so you
Know I didn’t really think about that a whole lot until I probably got into high school and that’s where I think people really started making that distinction but you know slim when you were saying is this something that still goes on today for us as adults and the things
That we have been through we’ve gotten past that so we don’t really think about it personally you know in our own lives we go on and do what we need to do but when you started showing or had listen to those young children that’s what it made me realize that it is very
Prevalent it’s very prevalent out here even though we right now all of us have gone through that we’ve been through it and we kind of think oh that’s over but it’s not it is not at all over um and so I’ve you know I’ve had to see that in
My family I had a grandmother who um she was probably just as militant as my mother that’s probably where she got it from but but her she could actually pass for white if you didn’t know and um she would never do that though I told slimma
Story when she was um she was hired in a Jewish law firm and she was there working and one day the door was open and she heard the lawyer discussing these nword these nword this and NW that and you know at the end of the day my
Grandmother went in and she told the attorney she said um you know I’m going to have to quit and he’s like Ruben why are you quitting and she said because I’m one of them nword you were talking about and then she walked out and that’s
Kind of how my family um looked at that you know they didn’t want to passay they didn’t realize she was black they did not realize she was black when she was hirer because back you know this is we’re talking about my grandmother so we’re talking two generations back um
That was unusual to have a black person working as a secretary in an attorney’s office but again my family hav’t been light skin were I say somewhat militant I mean not necessarily out holding signs and that kind of thing but uh my mother was always saying to me that nobody was
Better than anybody else you know that was really pass and Leah you you knew my mother so you knew how she very well and we even got into the thing with uh hair texture uh my sister and I had very different hair textures and you know
People would talk say that I had good hair although it’s like on now but I would you know having good hair and my sister did not and my mother did not stand that so she always if you have any hair it’s good hair and we were always ingrained with that even in our
Neighborhood slim was talking about you didn’t see a whole lot of the colorism not when we were younger when we were younger nobody paid any attention to that so you know but I think um as Dr Bruce was talking about earlier you know a lot of this has been ingrained in us
And came down from slavery because again the lighter skinned slaves were allowed to work in the house but you got to think about too where did the lighter skinn slaves come from I mean where’ they come from so you had had the Master of the House who couldn’t
Or who wouldn’t acknowledge them but still allow them to work in the house or they had certain Privileges and and that was another way of dividing us it was right the beginning and it has just kind of been passed down to a point where it
Makes it difficult um you know to to get rid of that it’s just so ingrained but again I think uh Bruce alluded to it it was a way to separate us and and Dr Bruce I I I want because we also talked about our experiences with Jack and Jill and I know
You uh with Jack and Jill uh when your your children were growing up and it’s a lot different now uh you can compare to Jack and G way back then and also some of the fraternities way back then how colorism might have had a play in there
But before you get into that I want to introduce so he came on late and uh I had to mute him because he was jumping around and everything but I think he’s all right now Lewis bracie and he’s another uh member of uh trucks in neighborhood uh with one of the big
Families and Louis we had talked about in our neighborhood that we didn’t so much see colorism in our particular neighborhood because we had families that had people that were uh had both the same parents but they had family members that were of different shades of colors so you know
It was no room for colorism at that point but sometimes once we went outside of the neighborhood there was some issues that we had to deal with I mean was that an experience that you had yes absolutely I have to apologize uh there was an accident
Locally that messed up our uh it hit the uh communication poles in my neighborhood bad accident oh okay well hope they okay yeah so that was part of the my delay for getting on because actually this area hadn’t had in the in the uh cell phone thing for like the
Last 18 hours wow and I didn’t know it really until I woke up this morning when they announced it so I like to apologize for that uh yes in in my neighborhood and even in my own family you know we have we we that everything that y’all have mentioned has
Occurred but the the good thing is is that um like like like like like James was saying uh we didn’t have to worry about that until we walked away from our neighborhood that we was dealing with other uh in other sections uh my own family we have people of different uh uh
Skin tones and really we never really thought anything about it because we were smart I mean we was educated Enough by our parents which is what a lot of people don’t do is is explain to them how things happen and and uh and it doesn’t matter cuz we you always say it
Doesn’t matter if you brown skin dark skin or whatever skin you’re not the skin that they want you to be and and that was one of the things that uh black parents who knew how to talk to your young talk to you at the time would tell
You you know it don’t matter if you light or dark you’re not one of them and that put you in your place right there so uh um that is what a what decent and good parents did back in those days was to keep you in your place
And let you know what things um how they going to look at you no matter what they hit a like my father one time said uh they knock you over to here just as quick if you light skinned or you dark skinned because you’re black you still
Black you know and and um and and one of the things that my parents used always say you born black you’re gonna die black no matter what color you are yes you don’t have to go to no College to no no degree to understand the ramifications of how powerful a
Statement that is so so the color thing in in in our neighborhood uh we we really didn’t uh deal with it a whole lot amongst ourselves because we understood and we were fortunate enough to have parents that uh uh Enlighten us at an early age
Of the relevancy of it but I want to tell this one quick story uh that one of the one of your host was mentioning about how the church and and James you brought up the thing about the uh fraternities and you know and everyone knows that was a big thing some of our
Fraternities in college at one time especially sorties uh you know one of the Sor I don’t want to name the name because I want to get mad at don’t do that right don’t names yeah I don’t want I don’t want to mention the s that known for that and I actually
Have been in the church in in the South when I was in the military and and of course I joined the military 1972 our first Juda station was down in South Carolina and on the week you know Sundays we would go to church and I ask
You I say you know when you not from a area I wonder what those people the first thing I would go say where the black people at I I wanted to go where my people at so I said where do black people go to church here where do black
People get a haircut here if I didn’t know the area that’s what I would do so I was sent to this one church and I was noticing that this whole row was empty and this is 1972 about half an hour later a whole bunch of Life skinned people was lined
Up to sit in this row that was designated for them and I I turn and I said what the hell is that and they told me what the story was that apparently it’s life skinn black was prominent and they obviously had paid a lot of money for this
Church and U and that’s how they that it was reserved for them and so I’ve seen it my own self with my own eyes and and it just a shame that uh we don’t have the uh the parents that actually Enlighten out uh enough of us at that
Time so you can have a consciousness of color and how we came to be what we are well and and and Dr Bruce going going back to you and we mentioned about the U the U are you a remember Ka alasi and early on you had the Boule uh which
Was sort of like a fraternity but and then you had the Jack and JS and early in their conception it it it was colorism involved there I don’t know particularly about many of the uh fraternities I I heard the stories about some of the sororities but you know
That’s not for me to you know to say but I think some of that was going on you know but it’s a lot different now so so talk about your sprs because my father was a kapper as well and he he played you know in the 40s so uh it was no
Issue there but talk about that you know how that affected people back in the day or probably affected people back in the day and and and you get into that mental health thing where where people actually want to bleach their skin I mean it gets
To them to the point where they want to change the complexion of their skin because of the pressure put on them by by their own people yeah I just I kind of think that um it’s there too many isms to debate them all so you be caught up in ISM
Versus another ISM and you’ll be frustrated for the rest of your life um I I think as it relates to colorism um as you can see I’m not of the light of he but it’s never been an issue for me um I’m I’m always in spaces where um
Maybe the darkest one or one of the darkest ones in the group it never really matter to me I find that um black Excellence overrides all of that um even and knowing who you are yeah and knowing who you are even when you talk about the fraternities and sororities I’ve never
Thought that that would be a issue for me um um skin color is kind of invisible to to me in that it does not affect who I am or where I’m going in life I never question that a opportunity is it isn’t mine because of a skin color um now skin
Color could have some effect of course it does but um whatever effect it has if you are excellent in how you um conduct yourself who you are um the success that you have it over Riz it um even in my family’s experience with Jack and Jill maybe
Years and years ago years and years ago if you were very dark maybe you couldn’t be or maybe the access to that type of connection would be more difficult but I didn’t have that experience um of course men aren’t members of Jack and Jill it’s the mothers who have membership not the
Fathers so um maybe they would have discriminated against the woman of lighter Hue because she had a husband that was my complexion I don’t know but we never encounter encountered that what we encountered was that Excellence mattered and then Excellence leads to social economic um privilege and what I
Find was that there was a big issue around um and I’m not saying it’s a negative issue but it was a the the issue was excellent it was social economic um wealth and so our experience had been that we had been in the millu of black people who were excellent black people who
Had and socioeconomic status that overrides I think colorism um to me and I think that when we are um when we limit ourselves I’m not so worried about what other people think about us because they’re going to always think that maybe they’re better because um they’re white
And we’re black and for us it’s kind of ridiculous I don’t know if they put as much emphasis on the complexion I’m sure they do on on in some cas but the reality is white people who are racist against black people they’re racist against lightskinn and dark skinned
Black people exactly yeah yeah that’s that’s the difference you’re gonna have a free p in life because you’re light-skinned and then you can be mediocre as a person as a um a a a person who is is successful um you’re still going to be discriminated against lightskinned black people get
Discriminated against just like dark skinned black people when it’s when right people are the ones doing the Discrimination you may get a little access and a little privilege but you cannot go through life believing that if you’re lightskinned that the privilege is so much greater than it is for somebody
Dark skinned um I think the great equalizer is um your education your intelligence your um social economic status um poor light-skinned people experience the same type of um discrimination that that um we yeah I mean so if if you’re if you’re going to be mediocre in life then of course um uh
A darker complexion may add to your frustration but um I just don’t think it is enough of a privilege if you consider being light-skinned a privilege that you can rest your um your your your direction and life on that you can say oh I can I can have certain things
Because I’m light-skinned I’m like okay if you believe that then you go right ahead it’s unfortunate that we believe that about ourselves more than it is that other people believe it about us we have no control over what other people think and I think ignorance can be
Passed down from one generation to the next and I think it’s important for us in our community to um instill within our children the kind of Pride and self-love that um they deserve to be encouraged to feel and um I don’t think think there’s a black parent around who
Says that I love um I love my darker complexion children less um now within families these are not necessarily parents but you may have extended family and relatives who may show some preference over the lighter skinned child versus a light-skinned child but that’s other people um so um I it’s really not an
Issue for me I I really don’t um see being darker or light complex issue I think sometimes look at us as being more threatening if you’re darker skinned you may you may be perceived as more threatening um and then the other thing I want to add slim is this I think that
Women have a more difficult time with it than men because um women um um although it’s not fair are judged more on their appearance than men are so if your definition of beauty is lighter complexion then women have a more difficult time um with that darker
Women have more of a difficult time than darker men and one of the things I think I heard Sher say was that some that her mother married I guess maybe a darker complexion man um my mother-in-law who could have passed for white when I met my wife and I saw my mother-in-law I
Said this lady is white she said no she’s not but I mean really fair complexion really fair complexion but she married a darker man I think that sometimes I think women are um for some reason I guess they I I feel like they um darker skinned men don’t have a
Problem um in that way as much but I think in the reverse maybe there’s some men um in our community who may prefer a lighter complexion woman but I feel like the whole idea of judging somebody on their skin color is so shallow can I charm in on what you
Saying real quick you you you you are adding on something that just came out in the news recently and have y’all already mentioned Serena rims have y’all mentioned her already no no well if you notice uh Serena rims uh it doesn’t help our people today when you have a
Celebrities of her level uh doing what she did you know if you notice she changed her nose and uh she been doing that uh skin shading thing that they doing that some celebrities do now to um to lighten their skin she done all that stuff uh she changed her nose uh
She lightened her skin and uh and not only her but several other celebrity women black women have done the same thing they have done that nose tweaking thing I used to tell a black woman that I met who had a wide nose I thought it was most attractive thing uh uh that
That I saw that I knew and I know I I always made a point to tell uh make a point the woman that had a wi nose or whatever um to say don’t be ashamed of it because that’s who you are now all you got to do is
Look at look at Serena Williams uh even six months ago and now um the changes that she made and then it doesn’t help our young people today when of course you know what Michael Jackson did um yeah some of the stuff was natural but we all know what
He did uh then you look at brothers and you look at him at one time uh then you see so that tells our young people today in this time um is there something wrong with the way I look and then if you know because all this tent is intelligent and
You know you all seen the read how um a lot of authors and writers have made a point to to bring color into their um children’s books to give our young people people uh a more sense of pride in who they are we had another Resurgence of we had a Resurgence in the
70s 80s and now we have another Resurgence uh again because of hair and because of of facial complexions and things of that nature but it doesn’t one leis don’t you think in some of those cases that’s that’s a personal vanity thing you know somebody you know
I mean we have makeup people wear lip lipstick you know that that’s that’s a choice as opposed to to being a problem as far as colorism some people have a personal choice uh to change and I think the case with Serena you know she’s always had a
Discoloration on her face if you ever watched her you know playing so that could be a part of what she’s doing there to even that that skin complexion out so we don’t know about the nose I that’s also a personal choice as well that’s also a personal choice as
Well I I bet you a lot of people would do it if they could afford it yeah that is a piece and and and I’m not I wouldn’t totally discount it but I’m only understanding it because what was wrong with Michael Jackson’s nose yeah let’s say you want lighten your skin a
Bit what’s wrong with your nose your nose is a part of who you are your nose what connects to your family you know just like some people have hair shapes in certain families into a mental health situation as well yeah Michael Michael’s thing came from as a child you know Michael Jackson
Is is what you it’s a misn normal he he was he was super human but as a child his father would often tell me look at you with your little ugly nose is just ugly little thing he was broken down as a child and so as he became an adult with a skin
Disease and he had the wherewithal to do something about it he could make that that that skin color change because I’ve had people in my family that have had that same disease and he was able to do it but as far as his nose was concerned
His was brought on by his father his father father would beat him up about having a big nose and and and and big eye you know all this kind of stuff so he wanted to always please his father that’s one of the things I think Dr Brooks would would would have did that
That men young boys and always want to please their fathers that’s why I still say today it’s important for young girls to having these babies to make sure that that’s a whole different opah show but men follow their fathers and so that was Michael’s problem outside of that his
Skin problem now you’ve got who was that was it Nick Minaj that changed their skin color uh one one of them Kim Lil Kim Lil Kim changed everything she did change her and it was a baseball player that did the same thing well though that’s that that is part of that
Colorism syndrome that is part of that that if I’m lighter I’m going to be greater but you know Martin Luther King once said that nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consious stupidity and so sometimes people we got to you know and and that’s again the
Professor like Dr Bruce said earlier at the beginning that some of this is just pure ignorance we just don’t understand it uh I I I do see that that you know that there many many different things you know we say we won’t going to call names but I can remember oh back to
Sherry a minute before I get there Sher was saying that her mother would go into a a a a a store and literally raised hir because you know in the 50s and 60s you know we were under Jim Crow and pbook was a heavy Jim Crow City and you go
Downtown to the famous and they follow you around or they wait on white folks well that was the other half of this conversation that was racism you know Dr Ruth said it that that when it comes to white folks they don’t see color they just see a black man or a
Black woman they don’t see the different Hues and they don’t measure it out you know they had that 1/8 law even in the Constitution that that you if you were 1/8 you were considered that so you could be as white as George Bush and still be considered a black
Person that’s pure racism right there and that’s racism and and and let me uh Dr Bruce brought up something that men don’t have a pro hadn’t had a problem over the years and it’s probably right you know because we would joke on each other and call each other whatever
We wanted to call each other so you know Sticks and Stones didn’t might break our bones but name never hurt us but in the case of women and I want to ask you here you know you coming up and uh uh especially being at norham you know
Sometime it could be you at all black schools and some sometimes we could be cruel in our own schools you know and some women and you know as far women were hard on each other and then the men not respecting the women because of their color of their skin you know because we
Would say during our days in schools and guys you got to agree with me we we would brag about being able to date a red bone and that’s the term we use and that was that was something where you would get a pat on the back for being
Able to pull a red bone which was which was kind of crazy because um you know at that age it really didn’t matter but you know we were we were conditioned to think that that was better if we could do that and have one on your arm you
Know uh so Leah during your time at at I norcam uh did you see any that kind of uh colorism I mean we’ll use that word definitely yeah without a doubt you know you saw it constantly uh you saw it sometimes with the teachers and students in the class where they would show
Preference to those students who were lighter skinned than those students who were darker uh you saw it even in the discipline of the students at norcam uh back in the day so it it it was very prevalent uh within the school system but you know we go back and say how
Experience I agree you know uh I mean gone beyond the school but I’m thinking about you know a 2010 uh New York Times research showed uh it did dozens of research studies which shows that skin tone and other facial features play powerful roles and who gets ahead and
Who does not I see it in the court system daily you see people being judged in the court system you know if you’re a darker Hue you tend to get a little more time than those individuals who are not of a darker Hue so we can say that we’re
Beyond that time uh but it’s it still exists uh today you know even uh going into stores you if you’re a doer Hue you’re more likely to be followed in the store than someone who is a lighter hue uh whether we want to believe it or not
It still happens you know um I I just see it so much still on the daily basis like I said being at the court system I really see it happening more often now than uh well see it happening often here within our our court system so um it it
Still happens and um I I tell you a case of a a cousin of mine who was very well educated I went to all the Ivy Leagues schools uh but he was of a doy hu and he went for in a job I mean very intelligent young man went all private
Schools throughout his life went all he went to Major schools out there in Massachusetts and what have you and he went for a job and the young man who was who did not have as much education as he had or experiences that he had he was
Given the job over over him and that didn’t happen like 20 years ago that happened within the last 10 years so it’s still being done in our in the communities whether we want to acknowledge it or not it is still happening well you know I think and
Talking about colorism though a lot of times we’re talking about what happens within within us our own you know like at norham or sure let me just say it was with a black firm okay okay okay so that so that was to clarify that okay that makes yeah that makes it difference and
Show you colorism but one of the things too I think that was an advantage for us to not have to to deal with that was going to norcom most of our teachers there pushed you need to have you need to get good grades you need to get your
Education you’re just as good as anybody else and they would tell us a lot of times you got to be two or three times better than a white person but a lot of times they did not necessarily of go into the colorism so much they really
Pushed us like Bruce was saying to get your education to be excellent in everything that you can do and you know you all all know Emory fears he pushed us so much that uh you know that was his Mantra to get your education and be better than everybody else and so um
That was one of the advantages I felt like going to a black school especially I see noram but going to a black school gave for us is that it made all of us feel that we were as good as or better than you know those others who were
Doing anything we could do anything that we wanted to do if we just worked hard enough and so those teachers I that’s where I think we got a real disadvantage when things were integrated because a black teacher can’t go into an integrated classroom and say the things
That our teachers used to say to us that’s right and those things that they said to us with truth they gave us truth they let us know how it was going to be when we got outside in the world we had to be judged on you know on our
Character and our education rather than our color so I think too um I remember back on cesame uh this is crazy but Sesame SE Street with the little kids when they had um different things on there being black and beautiful and I’m Black and I’m Proud you know we went
Through those kind of things and I think that made a really big difference when it comes to the colorism because it let us know as a group as as black people light dark whatever that we were good enough and could be better than and so I think again we get back into that
Education and the Excellence those are the things that we need to push on our children and in our families and I think that’s other thing slim happened in our neighborhood with our families our families were pretty you know very much into that um and I know my mother I know Leah’s
Mother you know we all we got that from our families that we were uh and could be just as good as anybody else so you know excellent you took that to William and Mary with you and and it’s good that you had that instilled in you to go to
William and Mary doing a challenging time the only hiccup you had was trying to prove to your own people let me let me um here in Atlanta one of the things I’ve noticed that’s a little different is that Atlanta has always been driven by uh people of the Hue down here
Believe It or Not uh uh one of the greatest judges here was uh judge Arrington that was here and he was one of the first black black judges he was the first black law student at Emer University but one thing he did and I’ll never forget it if was I had this about
2004 2005 he shut his C courtroom down because he sat there and looked at looked out in the audience and he looked at all the the plaintiffs and and everybody that was being adjudicated that day and they were all black at that time and the victims were were mixed
Some white some black some light some dark he said he said I want all the white folks to leave and they got upset I mean they really got very upset and I happen to be in there that day and I stay and he laid them young boys out he said I’m so
Disgusted with looking in this courtroom and all I these young people that been dropped out of school in the fifth grade one of them couldn’t even spell his first name his name was quintavius and he couldn’t spell it he could get as far as q and he just got disgusted but
That was the leadership he got discusted back in the early late late 60s early 70s and helped turn this town around you’re right Sherry we were able that’s one of the faults I find in integration is that we as a people were able to speak truth to we were able to put the
Information down where the goats could get it you know and and so we learned and Mr FS you right he pushed it he pushed it hard he wanted us to be who we are that was the great thing I see norham High School you look at Israel Charles norham he was not a
Light-skinned brother either not he was not so but you know one thing I look at now you know you look at the NBA you know when and you talk about uh colorism there and and I get tickled they pick on what that little boy name from Golden
State Golden State had a lot of little lightskinned boys playing for him but then when you got down you you they felt threatened going on the inside when they went against uh uh the boy that just got put out matter of fact that green boy
And you know but but it the NBA suffers from it the NFL suffers from colorism and I think a lot of it sometimes has to do in marketing and how and what looks good on television you know exactly exactly one of the one of my neighborhood bars called Bradley’s I go
To it’s it’s 95% Republican that tell you how it is but they give me my due respect in there because I never back off any debate that they want to have and I come through with facts and figures and when you know who you are and who you are that scares
White folks to death I love so so when when uh we get into the bat in there you know I often tell them you know that that uh you have to be careful as to how you look at us because we’re we’re coming at you don’t know in our groups and black
Folks we don’t you white folks can’t tell who we are half the time half because we were passing for years and so they would be talking to black folks and and and didn’t didn’t know where where they were going you know and be giving us the wrong
Information but in today’s time I think colorism is pretty much playing itself out but what we have to do now you know we’ve got to get our children to understand who they are and who they are amen because they’re going down you know I listen to dirty red whatever the
Little girl’s name is and and she’s juster as she could be uh listen to to Nicki Minaj and and cardi B you know that little light skar girl but look at her I wouldn’t take her home you know I you I couldn’t take her home you know world I take that said
Look at this you know because it’s it’s it’s not like it was anymore and and we you’re right Dr Bruce we’ve got to get it in our minds that and it’s it’s generation you know it’s been going on for 400 years we witnessed the lightskinned brothers get picked over the dasin
Brothers you know we we witnessed that even and it’s still happening but we we’ve got to we’ve got to understand that that that’s that’s where it goes and we every now and then we gonna have to do like George Arington did and just shut it down to speak truth to these
Kids and get them back on track well let me say this one one Wesley I think it was Bruce go ahhe Bruce I didn’t know I couldn’t tell no no no no you can go ahead I didn’t know if I was meing not I’ll wait
Till you get finished goad no I say that first of all um all of these isms we just we things they’re things we don’t have control over we don’t have control over our complexion we don’t have control over how tall we are we don’t have control over these things so um
These isms we can’t allow them to um have a safe a safe space in our mind and I think the great equalizer in all of this I mean you will have people who are short and they will say that there’s discrimination against short people well maybe there is what are you gonna do
About it I think that we have to look at how we navigate all of these things in life and I think one of the things that makes that that really really can equalize level the playing field is the that we bring to the table that’s true
Then so you can be lightskinned and not very bright is gonna overcome you not being very bright you can be light skin and not have economic means I don’t think light skin is gonna overcome you being broke so I think if we concentrate on black excellence and we concentrate on
Economic um social and economic wealth you can be dark skinned and experience life in the most amazing way and your lightskinned your dark excuse me you can be dark skinned and experience your life in the most amazing way and all of a sudden the dark skin is not necessarily
That big of an issue people really like you a lot when you have wealth people really really like you a lot when you’re very very bright and intelligent and then I think um skin color drops down on those on that list of things that really matter and so I think in our
Community if people are giv the impression that light skin is so amazing and it’s going to do so many things for you in life you’re setting people up for failure right what Sherry was talking about and Li was talked about at noram is and then those those um instructors teaching Excellence they weren’t
Teaching lightskinn they were teaching Excellence for all children and that Excellence over comes a lot of these things these superficial things that we zero in on I would never say that color is not an issue or that light-skinned people may have maybe a slight Advantage when they
When the judge of who’s better is as ignorant you have you present lightskinn and dark skin to ignorant people then they’re going to say lightskin is better you present light skin and dark skin to very intelligent people they’re going to say that doesn’t matter I want to know what you can do
Right and I and I think that it’s the the work is for our family and our community my goal is never to change white people because they’ve been consistent in who they are and they’re not change because because they feel a moral obligation to change so I think
Our energy is wasted on um analyzing and and um dissecting what they think and why they think the issue could be why we think it exactly why we allow this nonsense in our community and I will take a a a a bright intelligent um um darker complexion person or lighter complexion
Person it doesn’t matter to me um their skin color is probably something very superficial that may get you a first look but beyond that when it comes to trying to prove your worth and how how excellent you are you cannot make it to the Finish Line simply because you think
That you have light skin and that’s better or you cannot convince yourself that you don’t have opportunity or you’re going to be a failure because your skin is dark either one of those misperceptions are hurtful and then and just remember we talked early about Serena Williams and these changes most
People don’t see themselves and their hope and and and the beauty and the beauty that’s within or the exterior Beauty a lot of people always say I wish I was this and I wish I was that I find people who have so many talents and I
See them but they don’t see them in themselves so many of us probably would make some cosmetic changes if we could our hairstyles women with with weaves in their hair why isn’t their natural hair as beautiful as anything else and again I would never see myself as less than
Anybody because of complexion when 80% of the people on Earth are people of color and every everybody comes from black people am black people who who are my complexion or darker so how can a a a copy be um better than the original we all started off my
Complexion or darker from Africa the cradle of civilization so why would somebody with dark skin feel inferior to anybody you are is because psychologically you allow information to occupy space in your brain and now you don’t feel good about yourself Li you were talking but before
You say that you mentioned about I went to my mother one time and and told her I wanted to be lightskins he slapped me so hard I thought she SL me light skin I had to go look in the mirror because and I never wanted to be lightskinned again and lightskinned people get
Discriminated against it’s interesting they’re saying that they’ve been mistreated because they’re light skinn exactly they don’t they don’t see it the same way as we see it we look at a light somebody in my complexion may look at a person lighter skinned and say they have privilege because they’re skinned but
The lighter skinned person doesn’t necessarily think that just like white people um falsely don’t believe they have privilege now it’s not logical to me but in their mind it’s logical they don’t believe they have privilege when they do but Dr Bruce Dr Bruce the 60s made you black men you darker black men
The great men that you are the 60s was when they decided that black was beautiful and the darker you were people started gravitating towards that darker skinned black man or black person during the 60s during the black I’m Black and I’m Proud era um and it did a turn it did a turn
On the colorism at that point yeah Le you know during that 70 period I I was black and proud but I was still losing women to lightskinned curly head guys just joking just joking no I was well I I think I think they Beauty in in all complexions of black people I
Think they’re beautiful light-skinned people beautiful dark skinned people I just can’t see how we can um separate it it’s just it’s all complexions are beautiful it goes back to us educating our children when they’re young that black is beautiful yeah doesn’t even matter what whatever it was so funny on Facebook the
Other day I saw some little girl who was white who said she wasn’t white she wanted to be black and I’m like okay that’s great that’s a great change yeah get they they W to um tan their skin they want to um get their rear ends enhanced they want to get
Their lips and noses all these things well lips anyway they enhance they there’s so much Beauty in us they actually know we are they actually know it they actually they want to be like us they want to have the natural um beauty that we have not just
In our complexion and our looks but in everything that we do whenever you allow black people access to anything we dominated with our Excellence we do in in um education and arts and entertainment and sports and politics and everything that we touch it turn to
Gold so and they know this and so their perception of us is not necessarily um that it’s it’s fear of us at our best and we can overcome whatever they um use to keep us down with excellence and that’s what we donze enough we cannot control our complexion they’re
Going to be dark skinned babies born I’m sorry to tell you that’s gonna happen make all babies like complexion but we cannot L we every child is valuable and every black person can be excellent but you have to be intentional about it and I think what’s hurting us
More than complexion is that as a community we’ve lowered the bar on Excellence we have we have Lord a bar we accept so many things from our people that’s harmful to us and I always say we’re the we’re the um um most reliable conspirators in our own demise we are
Other people we are the most reliable conspirators right that we accept all kinds of stuff I just want to see excellent light-skinned people excellent dark skinn Excell people in between yeah and as we wind down some of youall might want to make a last statement but I always I was
Telling Sher the other day you know uh speaking for the big noos guys I would always control the narrative I would talk about my nose before anybody else could say anything so that neutralized him what they said about me behind my back didn’t matter but nobody would say
It to my face because I have already I already controlled the narrative so and I bet you that everybody on this call have received more advantages in life because of their excellence and because of their skin color was excellent when she went to William and Mary Li was excellent
Everybody up here was excellent that’s where they got their privilege from that’s how they navig at their way to success not because of their complexion and if you say that you’re excellent because of your complexion alone then I want evidence that’s the real privilege yes indeed that’s the true privilege the
True priv I want to I want to say this I put on my Christmas shirt because I wanted to say I wanted to say Merry Christmas everybody if I don’t get a chance to see you I talk to you before the uh Christmas season get here so I
Wanted to give everybody a um byebye with my Christmas shirt on but I wanted to follow up on what the doctor was saying and then I I’m going have to go because the trucks that fix the U communication thing just drove up so but the doctor you hit it right on the point
I want to say you you you nailed it on the head about the need for us to get to our kids and and put those um positive thoughts as to who they are and and because that’s the truth we have to talk to our young people
We have to get them to see that uh everybody wants to be what you already are and you know with our big nose our big lips and and in some good cases the big butts that’s who we are of that and because I tell you I I I
Tell black women all the time I was there was a they had a big um March around here Rec just Sunday they went around BWI it was a church of of but black women trying to get other black women understand the importance of health and everything and how they have
To love everything that they have and one of the thing they say we got to love we got to love our curves and and and and that’s what I’m saying you know no I tell people all the time no one have as Nic as curves as black women and and
That is my attraction and light or light complexion got we got to love Who We Are and that’s the thing so uh Merry Christmas everyone James again for call I’m sorry about the delay um because they I’m not joking they they get ready to turn things off so look everybody
Have a good day okay okay take care thanks good see him anybody else West from yeah around Atlanta yeah I I I love this this is and this is one of the conversations that we really need to have more of within our community and Dr you you’re exactly right that we
Uh and they pushed Excellence I remember my 25th class reunion at norham that was the topic of my my I was a keynote speaker and I put that they gave us the Excellence at noram it was Excellence as at at its best that was our theme matter
Of fact and that’s one thing that we have done now and and we have got to go back and put it into the generations under us uh Leah we talked the other day about that uh that crafts in the barel syndrome where we’ve got to stop pulling
Each other back and pulling each other down and and see if we can’t lift each other up uh we’ve got to get to a point that that we get the family back in place you know all this beautiful to see all the trust and people out there
Together and I’m from two communities in por I grew up till I was 16 in Mount Herman and then left and grew up in Cavalier mana and so I had the opportunity to see all lives of folks that that that that were out there and it’s um it’s really one of the things
That that is important colorism we can handle that that’s something that we can we can change that’s a mindset to change racism is something we might not be able to change because one of the things my wife said sometimes is that you can’t outwhite white folks okay you
Can’t do it you just can’t do that and so that that’s where we have to we have to pay attention we’ve got to pay attention to to what the school systems are teaching our children we’ve got to go back can be on the teacher side and help the teachers to understand where
Our children are because to in today the the in our day all the parents and the teachers they were against me I know that my mom and together together yeah they were they was working together they got me too but today it’s the it’s the child and the parent the mother in
Particular she goes up there and fights and cusses and shoots their parents and so that’s we’ve got to change that mindset and then we’ve got to be careful with our health you can be as light as light or as dark as dark but when your health is bad and you got some curves
That don’t need to go nowhere got to you you know we we suffering from diabetes we we you know we we we’ve just got to to to to to look at what is true is obesity and that’s another show for you there uh Jam is obesity one of the things that we
Really want to say it’s okay to have not for black folks because it makes our that’s where we getting our high blood pressure from that’s where we getting our diabetes from this is where we having very very we we need to take care of ourselves and and so
Colorism has its place we we’ve done that we’ve been there we used it matter of fact Tusk I was going to tell y’all earlier Tusa was built on CIS believe it ex exactly Washington married all his wives were of lighter Hughes and he used them to get Ford and Rockefeller and H
Con and all them boys would come up and pull up to the back of his house on the railroad track and he get them high yellow gas to be up there in that house and when they would leave for the weekend he’d had his hand out and he
Beat them picked up three or 400,000 okay so it it it was an instrument that was used but and a lot of people don’t know their history but we do have to understand you know I went to a a movie uh said we were invited to a premiere of
This mov called Common Ground you’ve got to see that it’s it talks about boogery I mean George Washington Carver how he developed he didn’t have real education but he had enough of who he was to make it so that our planet would be saved and
That’s what we need to deal with it’s uh colorism I can handle that racism can’t change but we as a people we’ve got to come together and make things back on one plane all right thank you Wesley and and you mentioned your wife one of these days you’re gonna have to introduce your
Wife to person coffee talk because she is a legend she is a legend in herself ly V so uh yeah right uh Sherry did you have uh last comments no i’ I’ve I’ve enjoyed being here this morning as early as it was it was still good no just just merry Christmas
Everybody everybody have some happy holidays safe uh yeah that’s always good seeing everybody again like Betty Brown at this point in stage this morning I had a crush on her honey that little girl there look I want to thank everybody and I Leah somehow you just
Keep okay I just want to thank everybody for coming on and talking about uh colorism and having this conversation I think it’s important for people who didn’t know you know you never want to repeat things that that happen in the past but you have to talk
About it for the people here in the present so they’ll know about it and what was encouraging about those those young people that that I played for you in the beginning at the end of it their their message was we have to change we have to get away from from that kind of
Uh colorism and thing so that was kind of encouraging so thank you Dr Bruce for coming on uh you always answer the call and you always uh BR us drop some knowledge on us uh from from a professional standpoint we appreciate that and let’s see Wesley you always have a lot to say
And we appreciate what you bring to us but some things don’t change I remember you back there at North you know teachers probably avoided calling on you because they did I thought it because I was dark you know I didn’t no not because of that you were longwinded anyway thanks everybody we
Appreciate it and we’ll see you next time and uh if you don’t see any of you all have a Merry Christmas I think we have a show right before that on the 21st so join us for that uh I think we want to talk about um the black church
And the relevance in our community especially around this time of the year so we’ll be dealing with that thank you Bruce thank you Wesley thank you Sherry Merry Christmas later Merry Christmas right look my Glasses certain things C
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