Well hello welcome back to the Masonic Round Table a weekly program of masons from around the world who get together to talk about U Masonic news and opinions in a friendly and social manner as a reminder the thoughts and opinions expressed here are solely the opinions of the participants and do not represent
Any Grand launch statements at all even ones that we may allude to um and um so keep your conversations open for the public and on the level to interact with us we can send questions and comments to the Facebook event page or in the chat and along YouTube so there’s always good
Good fun things that happen in the chat just remember your chat may show up in the show and as always if you can’t catch us live you can always catch us in the replay or in your favorite podcasting app my name is John ruar I’m a past Master of the Patriot lodge
Number 1957 in Fairfax Virginia next up Jason Richards good evening good evening Jason Richards here past master of Acacia lodge number 16 in Clifton Virginia and member of a couple other lodges as well glad to be here glad to have you Robert Johnson how you
Doing oh I’m just fine and dandy and all fired up for tonight’s topic because I’m ready buddy because I’ve had a long day but I think by the end you’re going to get me spun up which I love speaking of being spun up Joe Martinez how you doing
Joe hello Joe Martinez uh I’m in The Sex Dungeon I yeah I’m not in The Sex Dungeon I’m actually well I mean depending on how when you travel here I’m in the lovely city of Nashville Tennessee uh for work um and I’m in this weird brick uh hotel room so yeah damn
Glad to be here Joe Martinez not in a Sex Dungeon pass master of things and stuff and uh yeah I also too am salty so we’ll be bringing the uh bringing the barbecue sauce to the party this uh totally reminds me of Nick Johnson’s like basement like his closet
His basement closet like blank twice if you’re in in in distress all right uh before we get into tonight’s show always want to give a special shout out and love to the patrons who support the show here into 2024 so thank you very much for much
Love that you bring and the much love that we’re giving back to you so if you want to be a patron head over to patreon.com thee Masonic Roundtable that’s right get Joe some new toys get Joe a desk so he doesn’t have to lay on a bed in a Sex
Dungeon one of those little mobile you know those little things you put on your lap uh to put your laptop on you know i’ happens in a weird Nashville Tennessee hotel room yeah you have you have to pay by the hour for those things you put
Unless it’s bed bugs then you take them with you keeps on giving that’s right that’s right all right it’s now that time for tarot card of the week tarot card of the Week one of these days we will get that timing we’ll get that timing down all right um today we’ve had this on the show before this is the pasta tarot because who doesn’t love a nice side of carbs with their evening divination Nashville is i’ I’ve learned is all carbs this is
A carb City you all need to throw in some protein or something every now and again like it’s ridiculous I am swollen and tired but glad to be here go run a marathon no I to put my stretchy pants on get your gasex poor Joe’s bloated all right and our tarot card
Oo tarot card for the evening is the Ace of lunga lunga being long pasta and so this is the Ace of Swords oh oh would be a swords interesting yes I totally had that marked as a wand but I could see that Ace of Swords the wands are the Carta or the
Short pasta ahu so swords are of pasta uh intellectual they are breakthroughs uh mental Clarity um intellectualism new ideas New Beginnings things we’re going to talk about the opposite of this evening yes how it works out that way it can’t be total breakthrough because you can’t break pasta otherwise somebody’s M don’t break
Pasta that’s true y nice don’t break your pasta Americans all right so fits in the pan better no how else am I supposed to microwave [Laughter] it okay so talking about making tea through the microwave yes let’s talk about best way to make tea let’s talk about tea so tonight’s topic freedom of
The press the one British listener we have just like broke his earphones nice tonight’s topic is about freedom of the press in a masonic context right um let’s let’s start off things by saying just in case you didn’t know it’s 2024 and more and more Freemasons than ever are on social media
Which means they have an opinion and they are glad to share it so um that comes at a cost that comes at a benefit uh we do get to have share in this beautiful Global fraternity and yet not everybody’s opinion um is always the best opinion or um does it
Uh does it always end well tonight we’re also going to take the opposite side which is that there is a benefit there of having free speech um within a public forum because we are not without fault we are as a large organization you may have things that need to be
Shared and so um more than ever we also have the opportunity to share more information still keeping our obligations but really sticking to um facts and and getting getting the truth out there so we’ll we’ll pull that thread a little bit as we go Joe well I
Mean let’s let’s let’s set the guard rails here I mean I think number one I’m very excited about this show tonight even though we’re going to talk about some things that are potentially scathing right to to certain people but we have to set the guard rails here and
And you’ve kind of touched on it John sure where we’re we all keep in mind that we have to uh as Jason likes to say remember our oats and uh our obligations and Jason but um there’s really nothing in anybody’s Masonic obligation that says you have to do things
Like uh allow Brothers to be hurt physically and emotionally um you know to uh set up uh places of power and positions of power where you’re you’re free from the Democratic process you know like it’s there’s nothing you know people like to always throw that well remember your obligation um you know if
There’s bad stuff happening there’s nothing in your obligation that says you’re not allowed to talk about it or do something about it or be a force of change and but the secrets of Freemasonry extend to Grand Lodge Dirty Laundry Joe no but no they don’t that’s
That’s right that’s what we have to good cat that’s what we have to Define here right it’s not so just because you’re a Mason doesn’t mean you can do not nice things and get away with it and and throw out the whole obligation argument that that means nothing you know and
It’s it’s a it’s a flaccid way to to throw out the obligation argument I just wanted to get the word flaccid in there um once but no and we’re not going to talk about any specific place or people or anything but we’re just going to talk
About the things that we as social human beings that now have platforms to connect to one another where I can talk to Robert even though he lives very far away from me or I can see Jason all the time without being a next door neighbor
This is the world we live in now and we got to deal with it oh it’s a world we’ve been we’ve been living in for for quite some time but uh yeah to to foot stomp that we’re not we’re the intent of this show is to have a philosophical
Argument not to like throw mud right so first first up for the mud throwing I do want to set the St man we just lost half our viewership oh no this is gonna be so juicy all three of them I wanted to to add though that like having
Information get leaked out there uh that is really nothing new to the fraternity right so I think I remember back in like in the early 2000s there was a website called Masonic leaks.com and there there were people that were anonymously not unlike Wikileaks posting information that they had or copies of things that
Weren’t supposed to get out again nothing that violated any obligations no secrets of masonry were got got out but something that you know was probably harmful to another party and they just wanted to expose this to say hey this isn’t right people need to see this and
Then hopefully be a force for change whatever that looks like yeah I I think also I’m seeing a lot of things in the chat over here that I see you know things like they say opinions right and the thing about opinions is that right yeah everybody has an opinion um however
You know if if you’re really thinking about what we’re talking about this evening is uh you know the freedom of the press um free speech uh whether you’re you know employed by an organization who is private or whatever the the whole idea is that there has to
Be some sort of modality for one to be able to stand up for the right thing without the fear of some kind of Retribution now regardless of the institution Freemasonry based on its moral and ethical uh thing that it’s supposed to have right is not immune to this right
Otherwise we wouldn’t have things like uh Anonymous reporting of what happens in Grand lodges as to for that person who had to report it to avoid being uh you know you know catching some kind of a consequence like being removed from office or being brought up charges or being expelled right and the
Thing is is um it’s very and you can ask many many many people this today um Grand Masters in the United States overwhelmingly I don’t care who The Grandmaster is like I’m gonna lump them all in with this uh on average there are more expulsions that happen than investigation
Where a brother continues his membership after he’s been accused of something so like willy-nilly there’s a lot of expulsions that just get handed out all the time and for weird things that shouldn’t you know that shouldn’t happen for and I think a lot of that comes back to you know that
Guy doesn’t stand for this or he spilled the beans on this or whatever the case have you but Robert I thought that the freedom of the press was a constitutional right that we have in America yep so as a district Deputy Grandmaster I was told after posting a
Facebook meme which was in line with the Grand Lodge position it was just joking that we failed to get it something past uh I was told to take it down and I was told you have free speech as an American but as a Grand Lodge officer you don’t
Well it’s it’s correct that’s a super interesting Dynamic right it’s I was a employee of the Grand Lodge right I mean so I was like all right fine so I took it down but the point being like any regular josmo member could have posted that and would they have caught the same
Flag probably not but they’d be on a black list for sure well it’s it’s this what I was going to say was it’s this weird dichotomy right we are all freeth thinkers right and we espouse all these amazing things right like charity and Brotherhood Justice and all this great
Stuff yet we are part of an we don’t those words mean well we do the of us incorrectly but we’re part of this autocracy right we’re not Freemasonry is not a democracy there’s nothing Democratic about the process it is a a sometimes benevolent dictatorship right
We have a person we put in charge for a defined period of time and in most cases they get to do whatever they want honestly you know so it’s this weird which yeah and and the so there’s a whole lot of there’s a lot of problems with that
Joe I think and I think we all know that um but like logic would dictate that how could you suspect a brother who has made it into some position of authority to abuse such Authority how dare you even bring up such an audacious idea and yet what it happens right here
We are it happens and when people he those grievances there are retributions well again it goes back to the whole again we’re not we’re not a democracy we spow democracy and we love democracy and we fight for democracy wherever we can right everybody’s on the level everybody’s equal that’s really
Nice uh as a tenant of Freemasonry but in terms of the oh did I offend R.J yeah um damn it R.J but um he said he quit the show he’s done oh no um but to that point it’s it’s you know it’s really a struggle for me to understand how we’ve
Become so comfortable with this like you said benevolent dictatorship and year after year after year we’re okay with it and we just kind of like well it’ll be over in a year or this person won’t be around anymore you know most time it doesn’t have any real
Consequence but more and more you know lately it has had consequence and maybe this stems from like you know Darren laners has got this really interesting idea that I think he’s going to start writing about and it’s kind of like this juxtapost between the new school and old
School which is causing all kinds of kurur fluffles and you know guys who are in power today or tend to be on that old school still and there are consequences for attempting to do things that you think are the right thing I mean I POS the question
Um I attempted to this this story doesn’t matter you know what I’ll just say that if The Grandmaster says that the sky is green the sky is green you can’t argue it even though you can look outside and see that it’s blue because The Grandmaster has like this intent of
The ability to say change the code interpret the code I should say and like this is part of the problem like there’s too much power there you have to have some way to keep that power in check I well yeah I mean number one you’re absolutely right and
Number two I think this is gonna get John get his gears turning you know what I find really interesting is you know uh you know my own personal experience uh spending a good almost decade in a military setting right and understanding the the rules of leadership in that
Environment and then being in corporate world for a long period of time a whole different set of rules when it comes to leadership right then you go into masonry and to be quite Frank you’ve got these modes and styles of leadership that they stopped teaching in business
World in the 70s and 80s right so you know we’ve got these leadership models and the ways that we build leaders up in Freemasonry and I’m using air quotes really hard there um these are outmoded forms of leadership when it I mean the military isn’t even doing stuff like
That anymore you know what I mean and neither is the government and neither is the private sector um you know so every time when I hear things like leadership come up when it comes to Freemasonry I’m like okay what stuff from the 80s are we
G to drag up again and and bring up right because yeah it’s just outmoded ways of thinking and and to your point it really is a old school versus new school thing and unfortunately I don’t think it’s a generation gap right because I know tons of dudes in their
50s and 60s and 70s that use modern leadership tactics to run very good organizations you know so it’s not an age thing it’s a mindset thing exactly yeah no I will say you know the more astute of those in the comments and those of you probably following along
After this do realize that the freedom of the press as it relates to the First Amendment the constitutional right only applies to the government and the same with freedom of speech it’s the constraint on the government government specifically First Amendment of the United States uh says uh Constitution
Says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or Bridging the freedom of speech or of the press or of the right of the people to peaceably peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances so that’s where that’s
Where it comes from it’s it’s a constraint on the government not any other organization right whether it be your family life right whether it be your job job whether it be your fraternal organization you name it um your furry Club Jason Jason’s experienced that right so that these are all all things
That can tell you to not talk right they can constrain your speech um or deal the consequences the repercussions of which being you might be banned from membership you might be kicked out yep Virginia is an at will employment State yeah same with Illinois but so like this there are multiple lawsuits
That exist today which protect things like whistleblowers and protect people from um you know they give them anonymity and legal protections and that’s important because as you said this applies to the government’s ability to censor uh UNESCO has great uh uh content on you know talking about the threats to freedom of
The press um reportings of on violence disinformation and sensorship that go on through the media and um like there they they list laws and things that are that are popping up in state after state after state that are challenging uh the press’s ability to cover anything and I
Mean even right now you can look at something like uh over in Gaza right now the only people who could report from Gaza were the people in Gaza like only I think it was last week or the week before did um the forces over there say that other you know
Countries or whatever could enter the area and begin to report freely um there’s just so much that is at stake for these things for reporting and what could be at stake but you think that’s huge right that’s globally we’re talking about in this instance the freedom of the mer Masonic press right
And what’s Wild to me about this is it feels like we have to acknowledge a few things number one uh one of you guys I think John was like shocker social media exists H yeah right so I think back to my early Masonic years when I learned from Brothers and they would tell
Me yeah uh you’re a Master Mason we recognized the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Illinois we don’t recog so Oklahoma at the time did not recognize Prince Hall Grand lodges so because we were in Amity with Oklahoma I could not speak to Prince Hall brothers from Oklahoma coincidentally was a lot of military
Brothers because Prince Hall Grand LOD of Oklahoma had uh constituted many military lodges overseas and whatnot and so I’m like so what do you mean they’re like you can’t talk to them I’m like like I can’t talk about masonry they’re like no you can’t talk to them I’m like
What you sound like you’re kind of reaching way outside of your boundaries there buddy boy and so there’s like these expectations of like our inability to even communicate with just a regular bro from another state to talk about what’s happening which doesn’t seem to matter but the second those things get
Put on Facebook ho look out you know the people are talking you can’t you can’t you know you got to keep everybody siloed so nobody knows what the hell’s going on and this is the this is a huge problem right it’s for separation we’re equal I get off my high horse for a
Minute well well let let me put a Counterpoint right um which I don’t necessarily agree with but a good debate tactic is to see if you can defend the opposite agreement which is um because of the nature of the work let’s just say that there is some information that the Grand Lodge does
Not want to reveal yet or or wants to reveal at a later time because some things may need to they might need to get evidence for Masonic trial they might have something that’s a deal hasn’t come through yet right is there you know what’s the decorum that goes with preserving some sort of
Information that may not be available uh or should be shared with the larger group so I liken that to like proprietary and confidential information sure if you think of masonry as a business oh my God he said it sammer down it’s fine if you think of
Masonry as a business then yes there’s a reason why we don’t let anyone into our lodge meetings that’s where we pay our bills that’s where we talk about our finances right and so there are certain you know there are certain categories of information whether it be you know considered Trade Secrets or confidential
Financial information or or things along those lines pii right yes personally identifiable information uh in the case of the alers protected health information right that that shouldn’t necessarily um be leaked yes so I was going to yeah I think you touched on all the important ones I
Think if we’re arguing this side of the conversation too I mean we do have to contend with the fact that we’ve said it multiple times Freemasonry is a private organization right it’s not it’s not a secret society it’s a society with Secrets right another bumper sticker line for you there but to
To your point there is I I think we need to distinguish between the work like John said and the administration of the organization right they’re two separate things right so which part of that is should be behind closed doors and not make it its way to
The public and which part is okay so yeah I mean I think it goes without St I mean like where you’re coming from are exact like the second we propos the idea that transparency is is the way to be like if I was going to say that online I
Just say flat out the first thing people do is they say no way and they cite exactly what you’re talking about however that’s not what I’m talking about being transparent about right in in this and and and even when you tell them that it doesn’t stop them from injecting that
Same sort of argument to problems of of abusive administrative leadership right you oh you can’t do that because whatever right and the the problem still it’s it’s like dude this isn’t North Korea so you know I’m not gonna say that uh um if I witness some Mason abusing a
Kid at a children’s home that is a masonic children’s home I’m gonna say something right and I’m not GNA be quiet about it either I don’t really care who knows you know uh because it’s public record or it’s like all of those kind but Robert think of think of this brother’s
Family like we don’t want well hey look man I don’t care that was sarcasm exactly everybody know that was sarcasm yeah okay but like a great example of something that happened even recently this isn’t masonry right but uh NPR’s local station wbe here in Chicago did an independent
Um uh investigation relating to charges of sexual harassment against underage and of AG women working for the Chicago Park District as lifeguards Decades of abuse amongst their lifeguards they had re they had they had made the complaints they pushed him up the ladder and nothing happened until the public knew about
It public tax dollars paying for people to be able to be implo his lifeguards and they’re complaining they’re getting abused and nobody cares until the public finds out and now all of a sudden Administration has to like fix it before you get to that Joe
Right I think you put a good point this just proves this is one of many examples of where having some transparency in the or bringing the issue to light right um can actually Institute the change that hasn’t happened through normal channels official channels but there you have to be wary
Of the court of public opinion oh yeah cour of public opinion is not always right all right Joe yeah so I want to I wanted to circle the wagons back to uh so Zack writes I will keep a master Mason’s Secrets as my own if the Grand
Lodge swears you to secrecy for opsc purposes then that is part of your master Mason’s oath nope I’m sorry I absolutely wholeheartedly disagree with that and I just want to pull this I saw this and I it’s coming from a good place I feel like sure but I just want to I
Gotta I gotta pick apart this a little bit so you know the the things that you keep as a secret as a Master Mason they’re somewhat defined right and it doesn’t include um acting in a bad way towards another brother doing something that skirts the
Legal limits of of right doing um and I can’t think of a single operational security purpose where it would be okay to uh let those things slide right if people are are are committing wrongdoing and you know it’s wrong your obligation doesn’t protect you from that right nor
Should it and and I think again we’re we’re getting back to the whole purpose of this this show this week is that we live in a very social and connected world as much as people don’t want to argue that point it’s 2024 I don’t want anyone knowing what’s
Going on in my jurisdiction I just want you to know that Joe what happens in Virginia stays in Virginia well listen there that that want to want to pull back on that a little bit right like you’re seeing it’s interesting you’re seeing jurisdictions on social media they’re either they
Don’t care or they don’t know what’s going on right because people are not on social media or the people that are on social media they live in their own little Echo chamber right where they’re all saying the same things to each other but the right people aren’t getting to
Hear that or they hear it from second or thirdhand sources which I think is I suspect it’s happening quite a bit and then you have ones that are seeing what’s happening on social media and they’re pulling back and like well need to stop socializing on social media and
You know just put our calendar up and stuff like that that’s what social media for now you know to tell us where the next crab roast is yes we were at a leadership I was not let me not say that not we uh a good friend of mine was at a
Leadership conference for his district and it was mandated that he go to this thing and so he went and uh brother b m was leading the bow movement no no no yeah I can’t say his name I just say BM this doesn’t stand for bowel movement
And is not a uh a placeholder for how I feel about the individual um this particular brother stated something like the secrecy of a Master Mason and how far does it extend and into what circumstances right and this guy stood up and he said flat
Out if a brother is cheating on his wife keep it a secret if he’s going to kill his wife tell the cops and while I was like that is like almost literal to what our particular obligation says regarding murder and treason however yeah no I don’t want that kind
Of a man in my fraternity so I mean I’m I’m probably just gonna be like hey man I’ll whisper Good Counsel and I’ll be like listen I can’t support you in this and uh you know of course Whisper The Good Counsel yeah I’m not just gonna go
Calling up his wife and causing a a storm for this guy no you know whisper The Good Counsel see give them an opportunity to do the right thing and then you know take a step back and let the let let the chips fall where they may but like it’s those kinds of
Examples right bad examples and it’s like we’re almost enabling bad behavior well there you go um so one counterargument to that is what you have there in your your lower third there is transparency right that you could be a proponent for transparency in most dealings right um we have a
Communications problem even for the good things we want to share up and down the chain of command and masonry but uh imagine if with certain guard rails in place we actually had a a very transparent um Administration such that for everything except um you know things that were in
The ritual that were actual secrets of masonry and things that were like we talked about earlier pii Health um those types of information or like things that are related to as I call them the red rules um safety and law so in other words that can get someone hurt or get someone in
Jail all of those aside those should be kept kept private and secret but everything else what if we had a more transparent um Administration where those types of things were not being held back where you know you know we’re going to we’re going to be you know very clear about
What our intentions are and here we’re going to make sure that everything’s posted publicly or at least within the public of of that jurisdiction so the the brothers can chime in and and weigh on that I think it’s sorry go ahead Jason I was going to say I think I think that particular
Jurisdiction would have a much more mature sense of reputational risk yeah it’s a risk for sure well well no but but they would have a much more mature attitude about it and I I My Hope Is there would be much more of you know a a risk assessment on okay what are the
Implications of us putting out this policy or making this change yeah you literally you literally made my point for me from from the opposite standpoint because I was gonna say the exact I was gonna say the exact opposite everything that John said cannot work with the current models of leadership that most Freemason
Organizations use in today’s day and age it’s just not designed for that not designed for that ultimately fil so corre right explain that further okay so for I would say I can’t speak to um you know I’d say the last hundred years let’s call it right because we have numbers and data
And figures on that right we we’ve the organization itself has been through very big changes right we went from the dinner Club era to the you know uh place for uh people coming back from war to go socialize era to the big skip era where people’s kids did not become Freemasons
Right so then there became that generational Gap and then we’ve got your basically Born Again Freemasons right post 2000 right where everybody’s coming back to a lot of the original purposes of The Craft so we’ve been through changes as as a body but what hasn’t changed is the method and form of
Leadership and structure that our grand jurisdiction are living under right and they’re becoming really heavy and the pillars you know I.E the membership is not designed as it’s dwindling and dwindling and shrinking and refining as like people some like to call some people like to call it it’s not designed
To carry that weight anymore right so you’ve just got overarching autocracy for a smaller and dwindling population and it’s it’s not going to sustain itself anymore right but that same group group of autocratic folks right the people in the Inner Circle they don’t want transparency because they haven’t had it and they’ve
Not seen anything like it in a century so and they like being able to do anything they want in their year sure absolutely absolutely yes it’s good to be king yeah well you know what happens when something so uh silly and egregious happens within a grand jurisdiction that all of in a
Sudden we have NPR coming aboard reporting on things like this like you guys you guys see it or no yeah right and so this is the kind of negative press that happens and yet do you know what happened because of this were five jurisdictions wrote letters condemning those jurisdictions allowing those
Jurisdictions their constituencies to know that we stand behind you as a good man outside of your jurisdiction right yep full stop and you can come you can come play in our sandbox all day and so this is the kind of idea of something that I’m absolutely positive a
Grand Lodge would have Lov to stay you know yeah were it not for that what would have been the AL the alternative scenario right well uh I’m I’m stuck where I’m at I don’t know about my options that are available I don’t know how other jurisdictions do it because we
All talk about provincial masonry that’s right well I guess that’s the way masonry is and and I don’t want to be a part of it yeah and there’s a lot of people who see those sort of regressive um anti-human policies and say to themselves that’s an organization that doesn’t even need to exist
Anymore and and the membership dwindling is speaking for itself well what what chaps my butt really hard about what you just said Robert was was that b you’re sitting on literally this bed is terrible by the way um this is not a comfortable place to be no honestly what
What you just said that really drives me batshit sorry is we’re literally the organization that started a nation based on human rights and based on human freedoms and you know based on equality for all and in some jurisdictions we do the exact opposite that just that that makes my hair fall
Out so and I have none left so I mean some on the back I witnessed aight hair from your goatee just kind of flutter away it just the gray one the one gray one yeah yeah I mean and I and I will I’ll be the kind
Of weird so right now at any given point in masonry if you are as involved as some of us are uh um on a national level meaning you’re a member in different jurisdictions you talk to members daily from jur different jurisdictions uh you’ve got a group chat with you know
The top 10 your favorite Mason buddies in different you know areas or whatever of the country you’re all talking about all of the crazy things that are happening at any given moment and these guys are your Advocates you know they they keep you from going insane and of
Course being connected to a lot of these people you guys have all seen and I mean you guys online watching just as much as anybody else who’s on the show see the crazy stuff going on right now I mean we won’t get into any names or anything but
Texas Facebook page is crazy um the northern jurisdiction stuff is crazy from Hoda’s blog I mean things right now are there’s a whole lot of reporting going on a little jurisdiction right to my East may or may not be going crazy I I can neither confirm nor deny it’s
Just crazy yeah and um I think if we if members don’t know what’s happening in the jurisdictions around them I think that’s like terrible all right so let’s let’s pull that thread and let’s say that we you do have a member who does have inside information who is willing to expose
Some things that are just not not fair deals not Square deals not things that are really not unmas but at least unfair and un brotherly at a minimum and then of course you know possibly legal at maximum I think it’s it’s worth noting too that there’s you’re you’re going to have
Divisive um splits in the fraternity where you may have people who are going to support those who are being protected hey that’s information shouldn’t be out we’re not ready for that let’s not talk about that and you’re going to have another half that’s going to say yes
Bring on more tea bring on more information because this information needs to get out there and let the cards fall where they lay right that if if it’s really meant to be then it’s meant to be and then we need we need this information to make better informed decisions um but also
Realize the exposer is taking a huge risk right no 100% there’s nothing that that at the stroke of a pen Grandmaster couldn’t say you’re expelled you’re You’re gone bro later see you but that’s kind of like that’s you know that was like the Bob Lazar uh excuse from back in the early
990s late 80s when Bob Lazar was like I gotta go public about what I know about Area 51 otherwise I’m gonna be taken care of right so in this same instance I know there are brothers out there who have quote unquote spilled tea as an insurance policy right because
Then everybody would know like hey he said some things those things were shown to be accurate and well-founded and now I know things about X number of Brothers whether in leadership or not that prove them to be not good men and for us in the fraternity
That’s not a good spot to be fellas no so now the constituency is looking at people who might have climbed some ladder maybe they had all the best you know well intentions what’s the saying right the best road to intentions was I don’t know the road to hell is paved
With good intentions of course yeah and and it’s it happens that way sometimes yeah you know it’s not I’m sure it’s not every White Collar Thief uh uh intent to become an embezzler it just kind of happened pennies turned into Dollars sometimes my wife brings home three pens from work because
They’re stuffed in her hair then she’s got to return all of money office base uh fractions of a penny fractions of a penny oh I got the decimal point wrong so I think ultimately you’re never going to stop people from talking but through all of this I think
Something John you’ve been bringing us back to and Jason with your commentary on on government stuff as well like we’re not free from the consequences Right Bingo 100% yes that’s it yeah say whatever you want you’re just going to be held accountable for what you say correctly or incorrectly right right
Yeah yeah and and to that point Jason what what you say or what you push back against may be 100% correct and you could still get expelled yeah so that is a risk as well we’re we have almost 10 years worth of documented video evidence um of you know at least seven
Or eight Mason saying not super uh not super awesome things from the standpoint of like not hey all we’ve ever done all we’ve ever done speak like it is so yes yes you know if you got a problem with somebody telling the truth oh man you know I seem to
Remember so many political posts on Facebook in the last few years misquoting Carl Sean that uh uh if it can be destroyed by truth it deserves to be destroyed by the truth so Carl Sean didn’t say that but uh people love saying that anyway and I find that kind
Of a great saying and um you know what even if it’s Freemasonry because I think truth is nothing more important than that and uh ultimately if you’re a warrior for truth and you’re putting out there uh you know what did Chris say in his blog sometimes like something about being a
Martyr and uh I don’t know go read hod app’s blog it’s awesome yeah I mean there was a reason why we did Masonic news as a you know as a segment on the show for the first several years um until it got too hot and then spicy yeah it’s going to be
Spicy the reason why the the first week we were like okay for episode 100 we’re going to do racism and then two years later episode 100 happened and it was a panel on racism in the craft right yeah because that doesn’t happen no no freedom of the press not Freedom From
The Press right yep all right so uh given that given that context we’ve covered a wide area here but I think we we made several points yes we’re not going to call any jurisdictions or people out in particular um but hopefully you see examples of this either in your
Jurisdiction or in other jurisdictions that well hopefully you don’t see examples of this right uh yeah that’s fair I was thinking of at least uh bringing things to light that need to be brought to light that’s fair that’s that’s where I was going with that right uh hopefully it’s already out there but
Um if not those things that need to be exposed can get exposed um in the concept of Robert’s transparency Vision so let’s uh let’s go around for final thoughts and we’ll start with Jason and the I guess the question of the day is um let’s see with regard
To freedom of freedom of speech freedom of the press um how like what’s the what’s the balance that needs to be considered between go ahead you’re saying you’re going to say nope go ahead finish your question okay what’s the balance that needs to be considered uh between
Something that uh should be exposed or should remain private go for I’m GNA give you the ultimate Consulting answer it depends depends it depends um for me the the boundary really is oh stop shuffling cards you can hear that yes yes okay the boundary for me is when
Um Brethren or potential brothers are actively being harmed physically emotionally um like when when you know you have Brethren you embezzling money from Masonic widows or um you know you have good men who are being you know held in limbo in Lodge membership because of the color of their skin
Um those are those are extreme examples but when an organization that’s based predicated on good men making better men turn around and harm those within their care um that’s a problem and that’s and that’s a huge problem it’s it’s the ultimate betrayal of our of our aim and for me that really
Becomes an issue fair enough good good call uh let’s see Joe where’s the the balance wow you called me before Robert shocked um well here’s the rub I I don’t think there there can be a balance the way that our fraternity is structured right
Now I I don’t think there can be um but we’re at that Tipping Point right we’re we’re we’re refining you know and I definitely am in the camp of of refining membership not doing membership right because again you can’t have 350 friends best friends right um and I think we’re
Starting to see the effects of more masonry happening at the local level and being a a force of change um within its jurisdictions I think that’s starting to happen now I think we probably got about another 10 years before it really hits the Tipping Point but or 20 240 whichever comes first but
Um I think that I I just don’t think we’re designed to I’m pretty sure 2034 is going to happen before 2040 what happens in 2034 10 years math oh yeah okay yeah okay go go back to consulting or something shut up so no I think that
Like I said you owe me $500 for this five minutes of work be the change no I think that uh you can pay me and change he’s interrupting again um um yeah so everything that I said is yes and uh Jason is totally taking me
Off my point so but yeah um yeah if you’re doing really bad crap you should get called that on it uh it doesn’t matter who you are what color apron you have um you know if you want to go back to the we take good men and make them
Better then be a good man um don’t be a scumbag and things will work out fine and we won’t complain about you and peace and love peace and love good call all right Robert where’s the balance uh I’m going to put the balance
In the uh if you draw a line in the sand like on one side you’re good and the other side you’re a scumbag I think that’s that’s it uh I I think what uh oh Wheaton’s law nice got it what what Jason and Joe have
Both said uh ring very true for me um I I would make some avats and just not not to what they said but to my statements in this this week’s program is that number one if there’s a problem what is that problem uh to go to Jason’s point if somebody is being
Harmed mentally or physically or otherwise then that’s something that needs to be uh addressed immediately by going straight to the top and if nothing happens there then you need to take that to wherever it is supposed to go whether that’s legal or the police or you know
The public who I you know whatever but I would say that number one uh of course we want to sort of solve things inous so we want to whisper the council we want to run it up the chain if nothing changes and if nobody if nothing happens right then exposing content to
Like a wider scope of people within or without an organization is at least in my mind this sort of Last Resort which is not limited to say contacting the actual press sending something to a newspaper anonymously or you know putting something out there in the in the public sphere or the private
Public sphere you know somewhere like a Facebook group but ultimately I think the line comes down to uh it it is really as simple as is the conduct Masonic or not if it’s Unmic’d um there was an instance of uh you know I mentioned sexual abuse earlier that’s a true story and uh I know the people who decided to not act on that and uh in my mind they’re guilty individuals wow yep still still great and and Powerful
Ozes so you know yeah what did somebody say Be the Change earlier yeah do that hey embezzling from a masonic Widow Jesus that Happ I’m sure I’m sure we have a few other examples here but yeah yeah so again we’re not without fault but the whole point is to get a
Little bit better so yeah yeah good good call let’s not let’s not end on a low note though uh let me let me bring it in and say okay uh part of my job is like change management and so you’ve heard me allude to these things that are red
Rules or Blue Rules right so if you’re if you’re making big changes you’re trying to disrupt an organization um you want to consider what are those things that are red rules things that are affect affect um uh health safety and and and like law right again someone’s going to either going to
Get hurt or someone’s going to go to jail and then those are things that you really shouldn’t touch and push up against right those are things that you have to protect um things again like like pii and that kind of information as well obviously we have the secrets of
Freemasonry let’s keep those guarded as well and then yet you have the Blue Rules that’s everything else right that’s all these other policies ways of doing things uh hierarchies um protocols things that um could be up for reevaluation to to change and push back on and to to fight against but what I
Think we’re really talking about and I think RJ alluded to it earlier it may have been Joe which is it’s really at this point in the game a different leadership style than what was traditional administrative Freemasonry that um when you when you focus on being transparent when you focus on
Starting with the truth when you when you take the leadership style of um I may not and may not have all the answers but I’m going to share what I have or what I can share and be transparent then I think you’ll get much more um trust you’ll get much more more institutional
Um support if you are upfront about it and so I think part of what we’ve got to today is where as was mentioned earlier most of the B Masonic law structure that we have in place prohibits the amount of radical transparency that a lot of people who are familiar with good leadership
Practices I’m not even going to say new Masons or young Masons or anything like that just again people have Comm sense that know that uh We’ve we’re shifting away from the knowledge is power type of leadership style to a uh sharing is caring right it’s a need to
Share versus need to know and so if we can focus on that and help Institute that change then we won’t need to worry about Masonic leaks.com we won’t need to worry about whistleblowers we we can actually focus on doing the right thing because it’s the right thing to do not
Because um we’re in power and we want to make sure that uh we keep that power constrained to a select few who needs to know so chew on that this has been a really good show um very nuanced way of looking at it that’s a good M so yeah I
Appreciate that let’s uh we’ll see you next week I want to thank you all very much for watching and keep searching for more light have a good night you shoot
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