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Does God believe in atheists part one Seventh-Day adventism true or false the agony of Deceit the origins of Muhammad’s religion spiritual warfare our psychic mediums communicating with ghosts or demonic spirits testimony to the Eternal godhead the trinity from tradition to truth a priest’s story an evaluation of the Oneness Pentecostal movement
Mormonism counterfeit Christianity turn or burn Jehovah’s Witnesses deceived deceivers links to these newsletters can also be found at our website www.biblequery.org Once on the home page simply click on the menu icon at the upper left hand corner then click on the newsletters button feel free to print them out first Peter 3 15 says but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who
Asks you a reason for the hope that is in you with meekness and fear so here’s what I saw on Twitter I’m going to play it for you I hope it works for you um and you you tell me what what you think hey T.I I’m present I am here oh God and
I am the instrument of those seven pole rays and Archangels we are your instrument of those Sevenfold rays and all your archangels all of them and I will not Retreat I will take my stand I will not dare to speak and I will be the instrument of God’s will whatever it is
We will not retreat we will not retreat we will stand our ground we’ll we will not fear to speak we will be the instrument of your will whatever it is here I am so help me God in the name of Archangel Michael and his Legions I am
Reborn and I shall remain pre-born and I shall not be enslaved by any foe within or without in your name and the name of your Legions we are Freeborn and we shall remain Freeborn and we shall not be enslaved by any foe within or without so help me God
Bless you God Bless America thank you very much that should totally freak you out here you have General Flynn leading a huge room full of people and I seem to recall a couple years ago there was this tour I guess is what you’d call it across America
Featuring a lot of these people I don’t remember if Paula White was involved with it I wouldn’t be stunned or shocked if she was but the point is whatever we just saw was first of all uh I was about to say first of all was plagiarized and then I realized wait a
Minute we don’t know what that means anymore we we can’t even use that term anymore can we um we don’t know what plagiarism is any longer um but let’s just go back to the old days when using something without proper attribution was uh was plagiarism okay making it sound like you you’re making
This now I could be wrong maybe I’m being misled maybe he stood up there and said I am going to lead you in a prayer that I that originally was Prayed by Elizabeth Claire prophet in 1984. maybe he did that and if so that means it’s a cult
Because Elizabeth Claire Prophet was a cult leader but I have this really strong feeling um that that’s not what was said that there was no attribution now does did Flynn do that once again we run we run into questions that have been raised by recent events over the past two years
And even months um did did he pull that quote or did somebody else pull that quote and feed it to him and he said oh this sounds great this sounds wonderful um yeah let’s run with this I I’m I don’t know I don’t know where the source was well I
Know what the source was I don’t know how that got transferred into a religio political Gathering where you’re literally leading people to say these words I I don’t know the the the level of national Insanity that could be reached over the next number of months um
I don’t even know how to comment on it I I’m literally getting to the point where when you when you turn the computer on the morning and you just see the level of insanity not only here in the United States um but overseas as well hello this is Larry wessels director of
Christian answers I wanted to take this opportunity before the debate begins to let you know how this debate came about two weeks or so before this debate actually took place I was contacted by a local cable access television producer who stated there was a man representing the church Universal and triumphant who
Was challenging for a debate I suggested to the cable producer that our ministry would be happy to put on a debate over our radio show and to have the church Universal and triumphant man contact us the irony here is that the local cable access producer involved in this situation has helped produce Roman
Catholic apologetic shows against our cable television programs for years but in this circumstance did not seem to mind our ministry representing Christianity against the church Universal and triumphant as events would turn out the church Universal and triumphant member contacted us several times and the debate was set up at first I tried to
Contact several authors and speakers of leading counter cult Ministries To Be Our Guest in representing Orthodox Christianity in the debate but no takers were found most cited their schedule as being a problem since I did not want the opportunity to slip by I decided to deal with the the
Debate myself I found Werner zotter the church Universal and triumphant representative to be very kind and gentle a very friendly and likable guy in a way after having met him I still wonder given his personality how he actually challenged for this debate regardless the issues involved in this
Debate are critical the church Universal and triumphant concept of God is completely different from traditional Orthodox Christianity Christianity while at the same time the church Universal and triumphant will constantly use traditional Christian terminology what happens in this case is a semantic word game where the church Universal and triumphant member uses Christian terms
Such as Jesus but then redefines redefines it out of its traditional meaning in this way Jesus becomes a great quote ascended master in quote and quote way Shore end quote like others before and after him but of course he could never be considered God himself worthy of absolute worship and the second person
Of the Trinity as Orthodox Christianity hope the church Universal and triumphant cannot admit that Jesus is the god-man and that he died on the cross for our sins because it was it would completely destroy the church Universal and triumphant religion and theology take for instance Summit University an educational organ of the church
Universal and triumphant some of their course offerings are quote consciousness of the cosmic Christ and planetary Buddha another course quote Mother Mary’s scriptural Rosary for the new age and one other course quote meditations for the conception of new age children end quote their literature States that summon University is sponsored by
Gautama Buddha and assisted by the world teachers Jesus and kathumi the teachers at Summit University are the individual I am presence in Christ self the ascended masters and The Messengers end quote because of this integration of various world religions New Age thought and Christian terminology it is no wonder
That the church Universal and triumphant can make the following statements quote we acknowledge and adore the one supreme god the word God there’s a small G -o-d we acknowledge and adore the one supreme god the creator of Heaven and Earth and the individualization of the God flame
In the I am presence as the I am that I am the source of life for each individual soul we give allegiance to the word that was made flesh the only begotten of the Father the Eternal logos who is the universal Christ individualized as the Christ itself of
The Sons and Daughters of God and the children of God end quote and of course that comes from uh the book tenets of church Universal and triumphant page 1 1975. also another quote from Elizabeth Claire Prophet the leader of the church Universal triumphant she says quote
Not at all content in having caused the rape of a planet the Fallen Angels had as their goal the thorough and doctrinate and indoctrination of the people so that when the Christ should come to save their souls from perdition they would no longer recognize him as the archetype of their own God identity
And the Exemplar of that mission which they had failed to fulfill they would either reject him totally or worship His personality as one who could do for them that which they had no right to do for themselves end quote and that comes from the church Universal and triumphant book climbed the highest mountain
Uh Summit Lighthouse 1975 page 332 that was also co-authored by Elizabeth Claire prophet’s husband Mark prophet this last quote highlights the belief of the church Universal and triumphant that the worship of Christ is a lie promoted by fallen angels well with all this said let’s get on with the debate
Welcome to Christian answers live an Outreach of Christian answers a nationwide apologetics Ministry dedicated to contending for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the Saints dedicated to giving Christian answers and now from the studios of kixo radio in Austin Texas here are your hosts Lee meckley and Jim Tungate good
Evening I’m Lee meckley and Jim tuncate is out for the evening and in fact our show tonight is pre-recorded you will definitely find it very interesting and very informative tonight we’re going to be having a debate we’re going to be talking about the church Universal and triumphant now if you’re not familiar
With that organization don’t worry we’re going to be giving you all the details here in just a little bit now we’ve got this evening this evening’s docket full so we will go ahead and get started by introducing the two participants in the debate tonight this evening we are going
To be uh having representatives from the church Universal and triumphant and also a representative representing traditional Orthodox Christianity representing the church Universal and triumphant is Runner zotter now Verner has been a member of the church Universal and triumphant for 24 years a former ministerial candidate trained for the ministry attended Summit University
In Colorado Springs to study the teachings of Jesus and kathumi born in Austria he attended St Mary’s Institute and is a 10-year permanent staff from 1972 to 1982. he also traveled with Elizabeth Claire profit internationally from 1972 to 1976. a locally Verner and his wife co-produce three k cable access
Television shows and study with the official branch of the church Universal and triumphant entitled The Heart of Texas study group Verner good evening and thank you very much for joining us this evening well it’s nice to be here a great opportunity okay tell us a little
Bit about what you do over at uh Austin cable access well we have three shows that we put on and the shows are entitled the mystical paths and the coming revolution in higher consciousness okay and uh Verner is going to be debating our representative Larry wessels he is representing traditional Orthodox
Christianity Larry is the director of Christian answers and a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin former Church former director of Day Spring evangelism and former columnist for the believer’s Guide magazine a current staff writer for the Baptist biblical Heritage magazine and former assistant with the research and Education
Foundation now Larry co-hosts numerous cable access television shows including Pilgrim Publications presents in defense of the faith and Christian answers presents and Larry has been in Christian apologetics for 14 years and Larry good evening and thank you very much for showing up it’s great to be here Lee
Tell us a little bit about um what what you do over at cable access well uh cable access we do quite a bit we turn in these three programs which you just mentioned the the pilgrim Publications which gets into out of biblical Theology and dealing with the different sects within the Christian
Church and then we have another series that we do called Christian answers presents which mainly gets into world religions religious cults and sex that are outside the Christian religion and various topical issues such as that and then we do various specials on a different topics
Okay now tonight we have uh come to talk about the church Universal and triumphant headed by Elizabeth Claire profit now if you’re not familiar with this organization we want to go ahead and take this opportunity to let you hear a little bit from Elizabeth Claire profit
And then we will go ahead and go to our break and then begin our debate and flesh out the details of what we want to talk about tonight Floyd maitrea and El morya have written profoundly on heart of the guarding of the heart as an organ
As a chakra and then as the eighth race secret chamber and then as the threefold flame itself when we desire to do what we are doing to balance expand Blaze the free-fold flame we enter the heart there is a Stillness there is a fire and there is a presence it is very delicate
It is a flame that can be extinguished it is a tiny Flame there are also the shock waves to the heart that come from the entire planetary momentum or from the stress of our job our life our electronic belt our own moods and emotions we ourselves injure the heart chalice by our own
Discords I have set the pattern for this decree but you are not listening you are still decreeing from without as the outer self giving an outer decreeing it is time to enter your heart be there with Christ and feel that there needs to be a very calm and stable smooth sound
It’s not a staccato or a syncopated beat in this decree it’s smooth and equal we are in the process of entering the heart to the Alchemists to call for the very balancing of this Flame you must understand that we’re God to come into your temple this instant and
Bring all of the plumes into exact equality that there would be an earthquake in your being which you would not be able to withstand so God takes us increments by increments and this is why God Harmony and the Masters have begged us to keep our Harmony because without Harmony the threefold claim cannot
Expand if you do not balance your threefold saying you cannot be a chalice for your own christhood or for that of the Brotherhood Elizabeth Claire prophet of the church Universal and triumphant and tonight we’re going to be debating that organization uh Church Universal and triumphant versus Orthodox traditional Orthodox
Christianity and to begin our debate we will have a 15-minute opening statement from Werner zotter who is representing the church Universal and triumphant and that will be followed by a two-minute response from Larry wessels and Werner if you’re ready there we’ll go ahead and give you 15 minutes from right now
Okay well thank you very much and it’s a great time to begin right now in that brief opening by Elizabeth Claire prophet you may have remembered one word that stands out from all the others and perhaps it seems to be one word that also is so strong in our movement and
That word is decree now it seems that decrees are not used in the Orthodox religions as you call them and but we do use it and as it was stated back in the Book of Job uh 22 chapter 22 28 Thou shalt decree a thing and it shall be established unto thee
And from there on I’m going to read something in my opening statement to you every moment each man or woman creates his own future life which is a god-given gift continually acts to fulfill man spoken or unspoken desires human thoughts and feelings are decrees in themselves and do produce with certainty and
Justice after their kind whether Joy or sorrow although they live in a sea of wisdom most men create in ignorance their lives are therefore a mixture of both good and bad a chaotic outpicturing of the so-called Wheel of Fortune believing honest men and women want to rise above self-imposed bondage and
Would share unhappy human qualities of thought and feeling long and do it but not cured El morya chief of the Dutch ceiling councils and founder of the summit lighthouse offers these decrees to the world in the sunlight of divine love and light now the constant and faithful use will
Plant the ever fertile ground of human consciousness with seeds of Grace and spouts of Mercy these in turn will yield the Harvest of a new life a personal Harvest of Harmony and abundance quickly fulfilled at our call to the individual growth and the expansion of God’s sacred fire
Like the bomb of Gilead these decrees will anoint the really Souls of Earth’s children and bind human hearts together with the ascended hosts making the human and the Divine One family which can and will establish forever peace and victory in the light of God which never fails
How the summit Lighthouse was founded in Washington DC in 1958 by the ascended Master El morya of Darjeeling India for the express purpose of publishing the teachings of the ascended masters dictated to The Messengers Mark and Elizabeth prophet a unique non-denominational religious and philosophical organization the summer Lighthouse has become a forum
For the ascended masters and their students throughout the world with International headquarters in Corbin Springs Montana and study groups and teaching centers in the major cities including Austin Texas the ascended masses and the students are disseminating the ancient wisdom to Every Nation from its Inception the summit Lighthouse
Has remained dedicated first to the development of the unlimited spiritual potential of man and second to the bringing forth of such progressive revelation as well assist the individual to unfold his character his ideals and his understanding of cosmic law the summitized house seeks the betterment of mankind and resolving of
All human problems through its program of assisting individuals and Nations to realize the intrinsic worth and capability recognizing dogma and nervousness of belief is confining to the progress of the Soul the ascended masters teachings point to truth wherever it is found in their approach to the religious Quest
They outline the need for reason and order as well as consecration the writings of the great Masters published by The Summit Lighthouse Point to the fact that nothing happens by chance but everything happens according to natural and spiritual laws which may often appear as chance the universe was set into motion by
Infinite law and infinite wisdom even its finite characteristics show the scientific accuracy behind the manifestation the teachings of the ascended masters are available to all no matter what the educational organisms background they are intended for those who maintain an open mind for those who realize that a college or
High school diploma by no means marks the completion of one study of life life is ongoing by Nature Noble by intent and spirited by vital purpose life is the great teacher of all men and none they are closed their mind to its secrets the illusions of the world are screens
That blur reality and conceal its Grand Design even from the most learned man they are not if he would be free to know the truth allow himself to remain sheltered by Concepts that defy review that stand idly by while civilizations crumble civilized man need not tear down the
Systems of the past by violent revolution for he is capable of assessing social problems and up evolving Solutions without destroying those foundations which are needed to support change in every area of living with faith in man’s inherent ability to apply himself to the will of his creator
We can seek a better understanding of ourselves and our ways in that way here on Earth men need not actually your men need to rely on the balance wheel that nature has placed within the psyche of men Reliance on one’s own sensitivity to truth and to reality will help the individual to
Clear the text of mortal illusion and release the Consciousness from starting confusion that numbs the brain and the being of man we are living in a time when the media are often controlled education is sometimes biased and Prejudice is frequently incited each man seeks the good life but some is
He sure of just what the good life really is evil forces are bent on the overthrow of all religion right or wrong they would like to drown its meaning in the tide of events and in the cross currents of social unrest men are willing to Forfeit Freedom while
They Place their hopes in the group Mystique whose Collective deliberations have been pronounced Superior to individual conscience meets the confusion of the age the summit Lighthouse Rises a spiritual Tower to keep the flame of Wonder joy and Faith forever alive in the hearts of men its Authority is derived from the order
Of devotees comprised of the ascended masters and their understanded healers known as the great white Brotherhood having mastered time and space and ascended into the white light of the presence of God the ascended masters have fostered the exploration of reality and the defining of individual self-mastery since the dawn of civilization
This spiritual order has been behind every constructive Endeavor that has ever been brought forth upon the planet its members have founded churches fraternities governments hospitals schools and every type of philanthropic organization working in the main behind the scenes they have mercifully overlooked Mankind’s violence selfishness and Creed always striving to replace chaos with
Noble purpose and actively seeking to elevate the consciousness of mankind by re-establishing man’s faith in his Immortal Destiny as a son of God these selfless servants have sought no personal credit for their doings they have aligned themselves with the presence of life in all men as it was
Revealed by Jesus and others who have been sent to bring the light up tooth to a darkened world since its founding in 1958 the summit Lighthouse has remained a pillar of fire benite in the cloud by Day to all who seek the truth of the inner self and the
Knowledge of cosmic law and its personal and planetary application in the midst of the multifaceted activities of the ascendant Masters and the expansion of the organization under the capable direction of The Messengers The Summit Lighthouse has remained in the words of Longfellow steadfast Serene immovable the same year after year through all the
Silent Night burns on forevermore the crunchless flame Shines on that inextinguishable light the organizational requirements of an expanding movement have been met by the ascended masters in the founding of church Universal and triumphant Summit University Montessori International and the opening of community teaching centers throughout the world but the summit Lighthouse
Endures the Tower of Power Panda Rock symbol of light of the I am that I am and the summit of each once being the very present help in time of trouble to thousands of deputies up to the summit Lighthouse has been a beacon through the night guiding the soul to the port of
Reality our standard is commitment to Cosmic purpose and to the Brotherhood of Man under the fatherhood of God those whose loyalties are the same will find much in common with our service all tooth has its origin in universal law the consciousness of man as a repository of Truth provides opportunity for Endless research
Those who study with us learn how they can overcome deep-seated limitations that in some cases from birth onward have prevented their manifestation of the full enriched life they were intended to enjoy man is like a flower his Consciousness and Body Temple provide him with a platform for magnificent achievement
He is intended to blossom into bear fruit he is intended to pursue happiness while being harmless he is intended to achieve to overcome difficulties and limitations and to rise to Heights far above his present Norm that he might benefit his fellow men and set an example for the age
The keepers of the flame fraternity is a worthy body of men and women dedicated to self-improvement in the upliftment of humanity since 1958 the summit Lighthouse has been publishing weekly letters of the ascended masses to their students throughout the world called Pearls of Wisdom these letters are the intimate
Contact Heart to Heart between Guru and Sheila they contain instruction on Cosmic law commentary on current conditions on the earth and whatever the hierarchy of the great white Brotherhood deems necessary to individual initiation of those who form a part of this great movement of light bearers on Earth now this is um
Should shed some light on what church Universal is all about the summit Lighthouse is the publishing end for the teachings of the ascended masters and before its Church Universal entitlement was actually a formal Church formed in 1975. since 1958 up until that time it was known as The Summit lighthouse
And you know it wasn’t a church and we had many people from other churches and many people who didn’t belong to churches and we still do now have people just becoming keepers of the flame and studying the teachings of the ascended masters thank you for now
Okay now if you’ve just tuned in you’re listening to Christian answers live I’m Lee meckley and Jim Tungate my regular co-host is out for the evening we are having a debate the church Universal and triumphant versus traditional Orthodox Christianity we have Werner zotter who you have just
Heard giving his opening remarks and now Larry if you are ready we’re going to go ahead and have a two-minute response from you all right Lee I appreciate that well uh I appreciate what you know the Vernors here tonight with us to present his views and I thank him for that I
Would like to take issue with some of the things he said basically the question comes up how do we know these ascended masters are telling us the truth I mean there’s lots of Truth claims out there and we don’t always know who’s telling the truth or not uh apparently
The authority here is this El morya and these ascended masters are teaching us through the Pearls of Wisdom but uh I don’t know if we can I heard Werner mentioned some scripture verses and things of that nature but I think we’re going to find in this discussion tonight
That there’s going to be a big contrast between the teachings of these ascended masters and what we find in the word of God really the Crux of this whole situation is our Authority Verner talked about decrees and having an open mind he mentioned uh different things the
Brotherhood of Man fatherhood of God but uh where is he getting these things from apparently from these ascended masters who speak through Elizabeth clear prophet of the church Universal and triumphant our task tonight is to see if what what these ascended masters say is true or not and I would contend that so
What they’re saying is not true that we find truth in the word of God the scripture says in many places for instance First Corinthians Chapter 14 verse 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet or a spiritual let him acknowledge that the things that I write
Unto you are the Commandments of the Lord and that comes from the word of God Jesus said I am the way the truth in life no man comes to the father except by me so do these ascended masters teach what we find in the scripture or are we going
To find a tremendous contrast between the two I think what we find in a church Universal and triumphant is a deification of man and a subjugation of The Sovereign lord of the universe and of the scriptures okay thank you very much Larry you’re listening to Christian answers live
We’re going to go ahead and take a break and when we come back we’ll get a 15-minute opening statement from Larry wessels and a two-minute response from Werner zotter okay gentlemen malaria if you are ready we’ll go ahead and let your statement begin right now all right
Thank you Lee well I’d like to begin with a little bit of the history of the church Universal and triumphant and I’m getting some excellent material here from the dictionary of cult sex religions and the Occult published by zondervan out in 1993 of Mather and Nichols and uh I’ll just read some of
The things that are said here there are numerous churches that grew out of the quote I am in quote movement chief of which was the church Universal and triumphant I am has its roots in an eclecticism of ancient gnosticism Eastern mysticism theosophy and Christianity borrowed from Exodus 3 14
The phrase I am attempts to capture the locus and essence of deity that resides in a line of quote ascended masters end quote throughout history the I am movement proper began in the 1930s with guy Ballard he lived from 1878 to 1939 and his wife Edna 1886-1971 barring from the Gnostic idea
That God as absolute spirit is only accessible through human intermediaries the ballards taught that these Masters had been raised up at various times throughout history to reveal God’s truth the chiefs of the ascended masters were Jesus and a 17th century occultist Saint Germain with whom Ballard claimed to
Have had contact in 1930 on Mount Shasta in California the immediate precedent to the ballards were the books and teachings of bare teeth Spalding Spalding’s life and teachings of the Masters of the Far East contained ideas parallel to those of Ballard and other I am teachers Spaulding also believed that the
Essential I am presence dwells within everyone Balor recalled his encounter with Jermaine in his book unveiled Mysteries 1934. Jermaine had related to Ballard that he Jermaine had gone through successive stages of reincarnations and had finally achieved the status of an ascended Master Ballard himself Jermaine revealed had also had also been reincarnated many
Times throughout history one of these reincarnations was George Washington Ballard’s I am movement flourished during the 1930s and unveiled Mysteries was in great demand as many as 3.5 million people were reported to be part of the movement those statistics are difficult to verify headquarters is presently located in Schaumburg Illinois
Trouble erupted for the ballards in 1939 when due to criticism from the media public meetings were suspended and meetings were restricted to members only further complications arose with the death of guy Ballard in December of 1939 his wife Edna claimed that her late husband was now an ascended Master himself skepticism and disillusionment
Arose however and many left the movement because the ballards had taught that physical death would not come in the process of becoming spiritually liberated and enlightened Edna however claimed that she had been in constant communication with her husband after his death additional problems arose for Edna and her son Donald when they were
Accused of male fraud and fraudulent solicitation of funds they were convicted and consequently released she continued to provide leadership for the movement until her death in 1971. she was succeeded by Jerry and Ann Craig and Edna Ballard’s former organist Frederick landweir membership has steadily declined declined in the last two decades
The largest and most significant offshoot of this IM movement is the church Universal and triumphant the church Universal and triumphant was founded by Mark L profit 1918-1973 prophet of theosophists claimed to have received Revelations from the ascended Master El morya after which prophet announced that he was the
Secretary or revealer of el morya’s thoughts and discourses a book titled leaves of moria’s garden by Nicholas rowich served as a guide to many of prophet’s own ideas in 1975 the church Universal and triumphant then known as The Summit Lighthouse published an important document allegedly written by El morya
This the significance of the document lies in the fact that the movement here made an attempt to show an intricate link between key leaders of theosophy ascended masters throughout history the ballards and finally marked profit the following is from Mark Prophets El Moya the Selah and the path quote in
1876 Helena prevna balotsky was ordered by the master cthumi and me then known as the Masters k h m to write Isis unveiled commissioned by Jesus and Jesus the Christ the ascended Master hello uh hilarian and mother Mary Mary Baker Eddie was given certain Revelations that she set forth in
Science and health with key to the scriptures though at times be set with their own preconceptions and the burden of the mass Consciousness these Witnesses codified the truth and the law of east and west as the culmination of thousands of years of their souls distillations of the spirit
In the 1930s came the twin flames now this I’m still quoting uh Mark Prophet here in his book in the 1930s came in the twin flames of guy W Ballard and Edna Ballard imparting the sacred mystery of the law of the I am further knowledge of hierarchy and the
Invocation of the Sacred fire in the path of Ascension Representatives tried and true of Saint Germain they were commissioned to remain the only messengers of the hierarchy of the Aquarian age until mankind shall redeem a certain portion of their karma when that cycle was fulfilled Saint Germain together with the dark gelling Council
Sponsored Mark and Elizabeth profit to carry on the work not only of the ballards and the I am movement but also of Nicholas and Helena roech and so the mother flame of Russia and the mother flame of America convergent and spirals of freedom and victory for the Sons and Daughters of
God in both Nations and in every nation upon Earth end quote Elizabeth Claire wolf wasn’t attended at some of Mark profit’s early conferences she was immediately attracted to him as they shared a common Vision on the night of April 22 1961 in Boston they were soon married and found themselves in
Constant contact with the spirit world according to One Source eventually Mark and Elizabeth began to Proclaim to began to Proclaim themselves the divinely appointed messengers of the quote great white Brotherhood end quote and sought International outlets for their teachings end quote The Messengers alluded to were understood to be
Divinely appointed Harold spoken of in Revelation 11 3. the summit Lighthouse was founded in 1958 in Washington DC the prophets moved to Colorado Springs Colorado several years after their marriage and the several years after their marriage they purchased a mansion to house their new headquarters by 1969 approximately 100 followers had been
Amassed in the organization they had been told of and were waiting eerily for prophet’s Ascension into Oneness with God shock and disappointment came however when Mark died suddenly of a stroke on February 26 1973 greatly disillusioned many of the disciples began to leave the movement as had previously been the case when Ballard
Died in 1939 and like Edna Ballard Elizabeth Claire Prophet declared that her husband had become an ascended Master by the name of lanello lanello then allegedly dictated the words to a book entitled Cosmic Consciousness as the highest expression of the heart far more important than the work written
Supposedly after Mark Prophet had died was the major book written by the prophets while he was still alive namely climbed the highest mountain in 1972. this work is considered the organization’s authoritative text containing the collective Revelations of the ascended masters shortly after Mark’s death Elizabeth was remarried to Randall King Headquarters were relocated
To a Roman Catholic Monastery in California called Camelot it was here that King and Prophet decided to rename the organization to the church Universal and triumphant retaining the name Summit Lighthouse for the publishing arm of the organization the organization was not alone however an experienced a name change
Uh through a series of dictations from the ascended masters Elizabeth Prophet was granted the titles of quote Guru ma quote mother of the flame and quote mother of the universe shortly after the move to California Elizabeth discovered King to be having an affair she divorced him both from the church
And herself and in 1981 remarried a third time to Edward Francis the new marriage also precipitated a new move in the in the same year 1981 the church Universal and triumphant purchased the Malcolm Forbes Ranch and Corwin Springs Montana five years later Camelot was sold and headquarters were relocated to
The new home in 1987 headquarters were moved to a 40 000 acre inner Retreat near Gardens Montana unlike I am the church Universal and triumphant continues to grow rapidly under the leadership of profit now there are some other interesting items here I have in in recent events
Quoting from the PFO Journal of the July through September 1986. it says here a superior court jury in Los Angeles awarded 1.5 million to a former member of the church Universal and triumphant who claimed the church left him emotionally and physically debilitated Church leader Elizabeth Claire prophet
And a church were held liable for the damage allegedly done to Gregory mole age 64 a former Church architect testimony to trial allowed the public a rare look at the church’s inner workings the church based in Calabasas California mixes Christian terminology with Eastern occult teachings profit claims to receive spiritual guidance from 14
Ascended masters including Jesus Buddha the Virgin Mary and her late husband Mark prophet another PFO Journal article dated from July September to September 1990 States Elizabeth Claire Prophet leader of the church Universal and triumphant once again has misled her followers with doomsday predictions after Consulting astrological charts that indicated grave dangers in the
Months of March and April 1990 Prophet directed her followers to retreat to bomb shelters at a church-owned site in Montana the faithful waited March in April passed and no doomsday occurred however the cult did get in trouble with environmental authorities who detected a leak from a church-owned gasoline tank
Another article from the PFO journal from October to December 1990 States following her failed prediction that astrological charts indicated that doomsday would occur during the months of March or or April 1990 Elizabeth clear Prophet leader of the church Universal and Trump and received received more bad news profit had been
Ordered to discontinue continue the building of the Fallout shelters of her Church’s property a Montana State judge made the ruling after a leak of about 31 000 gallons of gasoline and diesel fuel from underground storage tanks at the church’s bomb shelter complex the complex is on the boundary of Yellowstone National Park
And going to one more PFO Journal article from October to December 1994 it states Elizabeth Claire profits Church Universal and triumphant has settled its dispute with the Internal Revenue Service and has regained its tax-exempt status which had been revoked in 1992 the montana-based new age sect has lost
Its status after a three-year tax audit it responded by soon the IRS uh the 35 year old church founded by Prophet gained notoriety over the past few years for its doom day prophecies and as a defendant in environmental lawsuits and there’s more information here I could go on to but it says under
The terms of the IRS agreement the church admitted no mismanagement however it will have to transfer a restaurant store Ranch and farm to taxable subsidiaries additionally the group’s sport clubs will not be permitted to keep guns on Church property concurrently the 56 year old spiritual leader Elizabeth clear Prophet also gave
Birth to a son in July the five pound 13 and a half ounce boy was born to Mrs prophet and her husband Ed Francis Francis is Vice President of church Mrs Prophet has four children from her marriage to the late Mark Prophet now with that said I’d like to close this
This statement with some of the teachings of Elizabeth clear prophet in a church Universal triumphant and as we continue in this debate we’ll get into more of this as time allows but uh basically when it comes to the idea of God the church Universal entrance does not uh they believe that
God does not exist apart from the created Universe regarding its conception conceptualization of God the group Embraces a pantheism similar to that of Hinduism like many other groups the church Universal and triumphant does not make the distinction between God and creation that Christianity does when it comes to Jesus Christ the church
Universal and triumphant understands Jesus and the Christ to be two different concepts similar to Christian Science and the numerous mind Sciences Jesus was the historical person who lived in Palestine 2000 years ago while Christ embodies a principle of divine Consciousness possessed by everyone Jesus’s outstanding Fiat accompli was
His ability to achieve an unprecedented level of Consciousness which in effect enabled him to achieve the status of Christ the church Universal and triumphant like many other groups within the scope of this volume does not embrace the Christian doctrine of the two Natures of Christ in a hypostatic
Union now there’s also contrast with the church Universal and triumphant and Orthodox Christianity on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit the doctrine of the Trinity the doctrine of man the doctrine of salvation the gospel the church end times and so forth and even in some teach in Mrs prophet’s book The Lost
Years of Jesus she claims that Jesus did not die on the cross as an atonement for sin according to to the ascended masters that she says this is a pagan doctrine that they they and it has nothing to do with Jesus’s Earthly Ministry now I
Could go on and on on this but let me make it clear here as I conclude that the church Universal and triumphant under Elizabeth clear Prophet differs diametrically on almost every essential doctrine of the historic Christian faith from Jesus to the nature of God to Salvation itself the church Universal in triumphant is
Absolutely in contrast to what we as Christians believe today okay all right you’re listening to Christian answers live I’m Lee meckley and this evening we’re having a debate on uh the subject of the church Universal and triumphant specifically the church Universal triumphant versus traditional Orthodox Christianity we’ve just heard a
15-minute opening statement from Larry wessels who is representing uh Orthodoxy and now Verner zotter who is representing the church Universal and triumphant if you are ready we’ll go ahead and let you begin your two-minute rebuttal okay I’ll start that here I’m going to read the office message here
From a book called climb the highest mountain I happen to be in Colorado Springs at the time when this book was being printed and written by the both The Messengers Elizabeth and Mark Prophet um to all to you who would climb the highest mountain Ralph Waldo Emerson said tooth is the
Summit of being we have called that Summit God indeed the God of all tooth no matter what our religion we are all like people at the bottom of a valley who seek to climb a snowy Peak that dominates the others we all have our eyes fixed on the same goal and we agree
That there’s but one summer to reach unfortunately we dip on what road to take guys come forward and we follow them some go one way others choose different paths all are convinced that their tale is the best and all are sincere by following them we approach
The one goal but when the groups which started from different points meet instead of uniting they seek to convince each other mutually that it is they who have discovered the best road and they sometimes End by throwing insults and stones at each other yet they know that one day provided they never stop
Ascending they must all meet at the top of the mountain and that the road to reach it matters little we uphold as God does the right of every man to choose the path he shall take to the summit of his own being although we cannot make the journey for
Him we would offer hand to help him on the way okay thank you very much Verner and you are listening to Christian answers live that was werner’s Auto representing the church Universal and triumphant he has been a member for 24 years and is a former ministerial candidate uh trained
For the ministry he attended Summit University in Colorado Springs to study the teachings of Jesus and kthumi he was born in Austria he attended Saint Mary’s Institute 10-year permanent staff from 1972 to 1982 traveled with Elizabeth Claire Prophet internationally from 1972 to 1976 locally Werner and his wife co-produced three cable access
Television shows and study with the official branch of the church Universal and triumphant entitled The Heart of Texas study group Werner again thank you very much for coming this evening Paul thank you for having me it’s real nice being here and I’m grateful for the opportunity okay and uh representing
Christian answers and the traditional Orthodox Christian view is Larry wessels Larry is the director of Christian answers he is a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin former director of Day Spring evangelism former columnist for the believer’s Guide magazine and current staff writer for the Baptist biblical Heritage magazine
Also he’s former assistant with the research and Education Foundation Larry co-hosts numerous cable access television shows including Pilgrim Publications presents in defense of the faith and Christian answers presents Larry has been in Christian apologetics for 14 years and Larry definitely nice to have you in this evening well thank
You Lee it’s great to be here okay now we’re just about to go to a break and when we come back from the break we are going to go ahead and engage in direct dialogue between these two gentlemen so that you can become more informed about the church Universal land triumphant
Before we go to our break we have a sound clip that is from a March 1990 nationally syndicated television program our shelters are not to be used for anything but a nuclear war There’s No Going Underground there’s no plans for Going Underground that is preposterous contrary to Guru ma local contractors
Working at various sites claim many shelters are occupied now even though State officials have barred habitants until proper sewage systems are in place and according to profit doomsday is less than a month away though she originally predicted an apocalypse last October until the end comes this clan waits in
The shelters armed True Believers convinced this is their salvation Lois West a professor of psychology at UCLA says doomsday is coming not for the planet but for the church Universal and triumphant he says profit has painted herself into a corner when the world doesn’t explode her followers will be disillusioned and Drift Away
Okay that was a clip from a 1990 March 1990 nationally syndicated television program Werner you have been with the church Universal and triumphant for 24 years and obviously you did not become disillusioned or Drift Away uh What uh what’s your feelings about that well actually you know in
A statement earlier that I listened to Larry when Mark prophet passed on and actually did make his Ascension several people in the group did leave and of course we have free will and that exercise in Free Will perhaps I have treasured above all else in my life
And what I’m getting at is that um I grew up in Austria in the 19 1942 on where I still as a perhaps a three-year-old remember the actual war and I do remember occupation for at least eight years following that war and so to me shelters and things of that nature had a
Totally different meaning and I had to I actually had to leave them and I did remember spending days and hours with total strangers when the as Sirens went up anyone would grab a child and would take him into these Fallout shelters or actually we call them in those days
Bunkers because we didn’t have nuclear bombs but we definitely had bombs that really made a mess of things as you know and I would spend you know my Early Childhood life with total strangers many times and so I knew in a pressing situations it was always a you know as
Crew that as it was it was a Haven to Grit take to we did have for children they were always well treated we had candy and we had Saltines and things like that we had water and we had a funny looking flashlights at all sorts of different colors we had distractions
But I tell you there was a tremendous amount of concern and fear in the adults and so when this this was happening uh when we were preparing as the the tape had played these Fallout shelters to me it was just a matter of all systems go
Yeah I’m all for it I’ve been there and I that’s why I’m still here I thought it was a great thing here’s here’s uh Elizabeth clear Prophet the Verner uh making a prophecy of some sort based on our astrological charts uh for those dates there in 1990 of which
Did not come to pass now you’re used to being in bunkers and War and all these types of things but now uh if she is would you agree based on you know the teachings of the church Universal entrapment that she is pretty much the soul mouthpiece right now for
The ascended masters or would you take issue with that oh I I don’t know whether I would take issue with it but I do acknowledge her office and Revere her office as the messenger for the great white Brotherhood and I do think that offices that people hold uh
To be honored and it’s just something to my uh my liking and again my exercise in in Free Will which I treasure Above All Things is that exercise and being here in the United States where we can still do that now what I’m getting at basically is she from your point of view
Being a representative of the church at Universal and triumphant she is the one who would give us the T I mean there’s not other people in the world right now that are getting the great white Brotherhood these ascended masters getting their teachings it’s only her is that correct
Well you know I’m going to have to really be careful of how I answer your question because I’m I have not met anyone else at this time who who receives the the actual teachings of the great white Brotherhood as they are coming through our messenger Elizabeth
Claire Prophet but again I have not met every in individual that leads uh spiritual movements and that I do think there are many many who receive the teachings of the ascended masters and I think the teaching of the ascendants Masters work through many individuals but I believe the messenger ship that
Elizabeth was trained for as a message about great by Brotherhood under the direct teaching of Mark Prophet who was her teacher who was a messenger father created by Brotherhood they hold that office and I respected office and I feel wonderful with that okay and now now I
Respect your answer the question I would have then then is we were talking earlier in the first hour here about Authority the El Moria and Mark prophet and the ascended masters of great white Brotherhood Authority and I was suggesting that the the contrast here between uh your organization and in Orthodox
Christianity is the Orthodox Christianity holds to the scriptures the Bible as we know it the 66 books the canonical scriptures uh as our Authority whereas your Authority is these ascended masters who are communicating through at this time Elizabeth clear Prophet now if this is true that she is the one who as
Far as you know at this point in time is the only one receiving these these uh messages of this authority figure or or Council or whatever it could be described as uh how could she make a mistake of uh predicting let’s say as we were listening on these tapes and and so
Forth the this this doomsday prediction of a nuclear war and so forth uh for you know March April 1990 if she’s in such communication with these ascended masters how can she make a mistake like that and then pass it on to all her followers
Okay that’s a long question and I um I I try to follow you in my heart and uh how possibly I will answer this question here here is what I feel that I believe that what we were being prepared for was something that could have happened and I strongly feel that calamities and
Intense situations like that can be averted or mitigated if someone is made aware of a possible threat and praise to to God in the name of Jesus Christ I Believe In My Heart in all sincerity that much can be averted and I believe it was by the
Grace of God and only by the grace that we did not have to go through what was prophesied prophecies can be changed the Nostradamus prophecies my goodness how accurate that man was but how much can be and I hope be averted through the power of prayer and supplication to the deity
Okay so basically uh Elizabeth clear Prophet then today could receive a revelation maybe a pearl of wisdom of some sort from the uh great great white Brotherhood of some impending uh disaster let’s say and uh people would prepare for that based on what she gives as her message of Revelation and then it
Could not come true based on what you just were telling me in other words there’s a possibility that this would just not happen for other mitigating circumstances is that what you’re saying I mean I’m just trying to figure out how can I put confidence in you know if the prophecies
Can change how do I ever really know if it’s going to come to pass because it could it could be mitigated it could be changed yeah well you know um uh we look at things we have a a certain perceived way of looking at things and
We have to really allow in faith that you know I always hear in English a great term oh I hope this doesn’t happen I hope it doesn’t have to be but we we prepare it’s like it’s like the we came over on the kunad ship lines
From uh we sailed from Le Havre France to Halifax Canada when I finally made it to North America and on that boat where many many small rescue boats and we saw them we saw them he said we hope we don’t have to use those we don’t
Have ever need to use them and there were swells there were tremendous tides and then things on the Atlantic Ocean as we crossed and storms and although I was young I still I I met I hoped and I heard my mother say I hope we don’t have
To go into those boats and guess what the following day there was calm seas but they had us trained to use those boats get into our life jackets hundreds of people speaking all different kinds of languages following commands to get prepared to go into those boats in the event
There is you know uh like a Titanic situation okay so uh the way I’m looking at it is you probably perceive it uh uh I I in my own perspective I need some real Authority that I can trust and and not that’s not going to change on me
At any time in other words I’m looking more at an absolute truth rather than something that’s relative that can change on me so if God tells me let’s say that uh I’m going to send my son Jesus Christ to come into the world then I should be able to believe what he
Says you know and I don’t have to worry about let’s say mitigating circumstances coming into play where suddenly God decides not to send Jesus the Christ and uh in other words what I’m saying is I need a source of authority that I can count on and depend on to be reliable
And will come to pass and when I look in the scriptures that’s all that’s the only kind of God that I have presented to me from Daniel chapter 4 verse 35 throughout the entire text of the scripture you have you know 435 prophecies in the Old Testament of the
Coming of Jesus the the Christ and the Messiah predicting in Psalm 22 that he’ll be crucified on across uh you know in Isaiah 53 it says that he’s going to be suffer for the sins of the people all these prophecies and of course and you know in the New Testament uh Matthew
Writes about these prophecies how Jesus fulfilled all these prophecies uh when he wrote on the cult of the donkey on Palm Sunday that’s a prophecy that was in Zechariah Chapter two so what I’m saying is what we find in scripture and it’s not just those prophecies either it’s all kinds of
Prophecies about cities places Tire siding Babylon you know have you ever read Ezekiel you can see that that Prophet is really a fiery Prophet he’s predicting destruction of cities people will be put to the sword the women and children will be killed all kinds of uh things are
Predicted and God says I will surely bring them to pass and so what I’m what I’m getting at here basically is just the contrast for the sake of the listener and I like your comments on this is uh what I’m presenting it from the historic Christian Perspective what we find in
Scripture is something that’s absolute that God will prophesy something that will happen and he will bring it to pass you know no one will be able to lift a hand and say what do us thou as as the scripture says particularly you know there in Daniel and in Isaiah and so forth so
How does this concept of God being Sovereign that God controls everything that takes place the scripture even talks about how God even controls the devil and the demons and everything like that how does this uh fit into the context of the theology that the church Universal and triumphant uh professes in this regard
Okay um well I must I must tell you that God is sovereign and Jesus is Christ a matter of fact Jesus is the head of my church church Universal entrampment and uh go ahead oh I was going to say is he the head of the brother the great white
Brotherhood is he the head ascended Master uh you know like in a hierarchy you have levels okay Jesus is our brother he is the Great Master Jesus the master of Galilee oh by the way I happen to spend a little bit of time traveling with both Mark and Elizabeth Claire prophet in the
Middle East and it was wonderful to just to walk in the footsteps of the Great Master and be on the Sea of Galilee and uh too many Jesus and they look to Jesus as the way Shore others follow the Eightfold Path of the Buddha or the law of Moses
In the west they have pursued the calling of Saint Francis and Claire of the Little Flower of Jesus and the virgin mother in the East Lord Krishna loud say and Confucius these and countless others have demonstrated the principles of tooth and left a record of exemplary lives but whomever the Seeker follows it
Is results the count if a man’s philosophy does not make him a better man capable of contributing something of Worth to his friends and to his Society then either he or his philosophy has failed and I think in our case with the ascended masters they do this they are way showers for us
And we have we are persuaded by them we are persuaded by their by their philosophy how do you know these ascended masters are let’s say telling you the truth well you know we can be coming back to that same word all the time truth and I think it was Jesus
Himself when he stood before Pilate and pilot said what is two the spirit of we keep coming back to it and we say in our uh teaching as I opened up the the commentary with is that tooth is the summit of being and we have called that Summit God indeed the
God of all truth now uh we go back the question before that you had Jesus also said in the garden you know take this cup for me if I don’t have to go through this take it from me but then he also said but how will the scriptures be fulfilled
So here you have the Great Master the Great Master who all angels of heaven will come to his rescue but he exercises Free Will and obedience to the father and in our own way I have free will and I choose to exercise that obedience as
Best as I can to something that I feel so strong is truth and truth becomes that Authority and I feel it and that’s all I can tell you okay so for you truth is determined by a feeling uh that basically if you feel it’s true
Then it is true I’ll go a little bit because feeling could have a meaning to some to you or I of a slight difference but I say that feel the truth has a vibration a vibration that permeates that penetrates sort of like a burning in the bosom or something like that and
The bosom also in the brain also in in in in the Divine intellect and in the heart of God in Me okay so let’s take for instance when you read the the scriptures which I hold to be the word of God yes uh do you get that burning sensation that the scriptures
Are telling you the truth or do these scriptures are are they mainly just a bunch of words to you that have to be interpreted by the ascended masters no on the contrary are those words that I read in the Bible in the good book The Great Book
Many times bring tears to my eyes but many times when I hear someone else read them either on television or on radio or just someone else I won’t hear them I won’t hear them I don’t know why I wanted I think it’s again the vibration
It is a motive it is a sincerity behind it something that is in touch something that permits Jesus himself to speak through someone to read the words okay I can hear the words I not only look at them I hear them and I feel them okay now when you read
In the scriptures that Jesus was crucified but I I quoted from Elizabeth Claire Prophet earlier that she says this is a pagan Doctrine uh how do you when you read all these gospel accounts about the crucifixion of Christ you even mentioned yourself about Pontius Pilate and and I
Think the biblical record is pretty clear that he was crucified and then you go into the Epistles of Romans and uh you know the the all the other Epistles they pretty much bring it up particularly Hebrews Hebrews chapter 7 through 10 is a particularly powerful of
His death on the cross his shed blood being the atonement for our sins in other words if if Jesus doesn’t die a death like that on a cross and shed his blood then we can’t be forgiven of our wrongdoings against the Holy One of Israel and we’ll have to go to hell
Forever now and then there’s plenty of scriptures that you know mention this place called hell of Eternal punishment and Damnation now how does let’s say a death vicarious atonement on the cross where Christ dies and sheds his blood for sins of the people and to save us from a let’s say
An everlasting burning hell where souls are cast in for all eternity to be tormented how does that tie in with the teachings of Elizabeth Claire Prophet as given to her by the ascended masters well you know we realize that the historical figure Jesus went through that and we have okay
Compassion but he had much greater compassion for us and he said father forgive them they know not what they do they don’t even know what to do unto themselves by doing this and I tell you this is this is a merciful Christ and it’s a loving and kind father
But he demonstrated that in the person of Jesus again he did not have to go through with it there was no guarantee to God that Jesus is going to go through it a matter of fact there was a bit of doubt in the god of Gethsemane I went to
The Iraq I went there this time around I saw where he uh he sweated and the the drops of blood and you touched that rock and still electric from his presence but he went through it a courageous heart and something we have taken Christ after cross if we’re not
Saying that he was never there he whether you and I go there okay and then that brings us to a key point of course I would like just take a slight little issue with you on uh on the fact that as I mentioned all those 435 Prophecies of
The Messiah in the Old Testament some mentioning his coming death and you know you go to Psalm 2 you know kiss the son unless he be angry and you perish in a way things of this nature we find that he is going to be exalted uh according
To the the prophecies given in the Old Testament so it was like a sure thing that he would die that death and then be assaulted exalted to the right hand of God the Father uh so I just take a slight issue that there wasn’t a basically from God’s perspective there
Was never a doubt that he was going to go through it otherwise he wouldn’t put all his prophecies in here is all I’m saying there but I understand what you’re trying to say there uh but the but the the point I’m trying to get two here is okay the distinction is made in
Church Universal and triumphant that Jesus is a historical person as you’re mentioning but then the Christ is like the Divine idea man as I guess some of the Mind science people would say I haven’t earned his Holmes book here and a few other ones by the Fillmore’s and so forth uh Mary Baker
Eddie also mentions something like this that the Christ is a different is a is a is a Divine principle it’s a it’s a Consciousness that Divine Consciousness that we all possess you have it I have it you know it’s sort of like everyone has the Christ so this was not unique to
Jesus but uh from a historical Orthodox position where I’m coming from the tradition obviously we would say that the the Christ only applied to Jesus the historical figure alone and that there is no Christ Consciousness principle that applies to everybody and that everyone has this thing now if you could now what I’m
Trying to get to it is some some some stark contrast here between the two uh ideologies theologies uh you accept that the historical man Jesus Christ died on the cross he said he didn’t have to do it but he he chose by his free will to
Do it but how does this tie in in your uh construct of theology how does this tie into the meaning of his death on the cross from your position okay it’s it’s a a question that is uh somewhat uh thought provoking for a part of me uh
Uh it’s but it’s very wonderful on an other part of me because again we come back to the one thing what is truth what is the truth of this given situation and as I try and answer this question precisely and I hope I can I will do my best I
Would like to just read uh from the office message here of climb the highest mountain the Christ whom so many Proclaim and so few understand is not confined to a nation to a people or to a person Christ is the light emanation the solar logos The Living Word by whom
All things were made and without whom was not anything made that was made you are a fragment of the Lord’s body a measure of his attainment destined to be a chalice for his light that you might give a cup of Living Water to a Humanity waiting to be filled
We may well ask as we look at the world around us has Christianity failed or have men failed the Christ our answer would be that men have failed because the complete teachings of the master of Galilee of John the Baptist and of the prophets who preceded them
Have not been made available to the multitudes these we must make plain these we must free from the shroud of Dogma these we must set forth that the day might come which Micah foresaw when every man should sit under his Vine and under his victory to be self-taught by
The great mediator of the word now Jesus the man embody the Christ he had that total Mastery he was the in still is the Great Master of life is he uh just to reinfor re-emphasize that he is is he the greatest ascended Master Avatar or uh he had in the physical embodiment as
Jesus demonstrated the highest attainment of Christ better than Buddha or any of these other El morya at his time oh at his time his time so someone else could be as great as he was in their time at a different time and Jesus wasn’t there in other words we are all
Meant as he said the things that I do you shall do also and create the things shall you do because I go on to my father he that wasn’t just Idle Words there was a promise that he’s he wasted no words he was a Stern loving master
And he knew that we are all his son all the Sons and Daughters of God and we were created in His image if God is a spirit we are Spirit Sparks he says uh tell you things indeed shall you do also just a quick question if you continue to
Answer the question uh in John chapter 8 around verse 44 Jesus said that to the scribes and Pharisees who were of course plotting to kill him yeah and uh in fact they tried to kill him there at the end of the chapter but uh he uh said that
You are of your father the devil and he said they were not of God and so there are some people who are children of God and Children of the devil I think you get that also in in first John so what I’m saying is uh look from what Jesus
Was telling these people that there are some people that aren’t of God they’re of the devil instead he knew he knew he could spot you he could spot you but he also said you know you can bend the knee you can turn around you have free will
He actually he was away show he came he came he says I am here and some took him up on it and some didn’t was it the pride of the human ego that prevented some from not bending the knee and others who had similar uh statue
To bend the knee well I think Jesus gave the answer to that in John chapter 6 where he said no man can come this is John chapter 6 verse 44 he said no man can come to me except the Father which had sent me draw him and I will raise
Him up the last day and then he also went on to say in verse 37 all that the father giveth me shall come to me and he that cometh of me I will in no wise cast out and also in verse 63 that same chapter he said
It is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profit is nothing the words that I speak to you they are spirit and they are live for 65 and he said therefore saith I unto you that no man can come unto me except that we’re given of him of my father and it’s interesting right
After he said that it says that at that time many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him and as you know in Ephesians chapter 1 it says that certain people are predestinated to be elected to Salvation and in fact in Romans chapter 9 it says that some God
God has Mercy on and some he hardens and uh you know he’ll have mercy on whom he’ll have mercy and he’ll Harden whom he’ll Harden and uh so it’s really God who decides who’s going to come to Christ and who’s not going to come to Christ God makes a decision and so it
May be well you know in Romans chapter 3 it says uh no uh all are sinners and no man seeks God no not one so all men are not seeking God they in fact it even says that in Romans 8 7 that men men’s minds are at immunity towards God
They hate God and so it takes the spirit of God through the Holy Spirit to get men to be drawn to Christ who the election of the father and so what I’m suggesting here is if men left to their quote free will end quote without God doing anything they will freely choose
To reject Christ every time so I’ve taken a little issue with the the Free Will situation Aaron that I’m bringing in the sovereignty of God into that issue anyway go ahead and respond to that okay uh the free will is perhaps the father’s greatest gift to all
He above all has the biggest free will to be able to give us to accredited In His Image we have the free will too but the Free Will is predicated on God’s holiness his righteousness is omnipotence his omnipotence is uh eternality everything he holds to be
Right and righteous I might I might say so that will is in accordance to what God’s Own nature would dictate so and I believe it was his son the Christ Jesus who embodied at the full the full Christ who has he ascended in the in the light so he came as the
Way shower he says now you have free will I cannot interfere with you free will God doesn’t interfere with your free will guess it’s his gift to you but I’m here to show you a better way but it’s up to you you know okay now this gets us back to the
Original question and so God sent according to all those prophecies in the Old Testament this is another reason why I believe that you can trust the Bible as say as an authority because of the the manuscript evidence going back over time we have the Dead Sea Scrolls we
Have all these manuscripts uh predating uh even a time of Jesus for the Old Testament uh plenty of a manuscript records there we’ve got archaeological evidence that verifies there really was a city named Jerusalem it wasn’t just some figment of someone’s imagination who made up an imaginary mythological
Town and created some kind of religion out of it we find that the scripture talks about real people real events real things going on we’ve got the prophetic utterances mentioned throughout the scripture which defy all known probability as far as I can figure particularly the most incredible
Prophecy he found in Daniel chapter 9 verses 30 uh verses 24 27 but but anyway we’ve got the God here who freely sends his son to die of death on a cross now this is getting us back to the original question and God sends his son to Die to
Save other people from this damnation of hell that he’s going to send people to if they don’t repent of their sins and Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ Alone there’s no other name given among men under Heaven by which we must be saved and Jesus Christ
So you can’t be saved through Buddha you can’t be saved through uh Muhammad or any of these other religious figures you can only be saved through Jesus according to what God freely has determined by his own will now in light of all this Verner
How and then as I and just to contrast a little bit more I’m going to read you know Elizabeth Claire prophet in her book The Lost Years of Jesus where she purports that there are long-lost manuscripts found in the Himalaya Mountains and you know where Jesus uh
You know traveled East with a caravan and studied with gurus in India and neighboring countries and basically uh she she claims this through the ascended masters this idea of God sending the son to die of death on a cross to save us from her sins through those who have put their faith
And trust in him and repent of their sins she says quote the erroneous Doctrine concerning the blood sacrifice of Jesus which he himself never taught has been perpetrated to the present hour a remnant of pagan right long refuted by the word of God God the Father did not
Require the sacrifice of his son Jesus of his son Christ Jesus or of any other Incarnation for the sins of the world end quote so here’s Elizabeth Claire Prophet Point Blank I I you know saying this is all false the word of God doesn’t teach it uh this
Is this is this is uh no one not any Incarnation has ever come along and taught this Doctrine and of course I understand this this uh would have to be the case from your perspective since uh the doctrine of I believe Verner correct me if I’m wrong is of doctrine of
Reincarnation is is taught in uh in in your religion that you are reincarnated and therefore the blood atonement of Christ on a cross has to be thrown out the window because uh if uh as it says in Hebrews chapter 9 verse 27 is given unto man wants to die and then the
Judgment of God but if you’re reincarnated then you can die over and over and over and over again sort of like a aluminum can being recycled but uh the atonement then wouldn’t be so necessary as you could work out your own Karma but if Jesus died for our sins then that eliminates
The karma that you’d have to work off through your successive reincarnations and so what I’m saying is uh Elizabeth clear Prophet is at least consistent in her theology by if she’s going to believe in reincarnation then obviously the blood atonement of Christ has to be false because if it’s true according to historical
Christianity then reincarnation has to be false because you don’t need to die over and over again for Bad Karma because Jesus died once for all for our sins as it states so clearly in Hebrews uh respond please well I I know this is um this is very involved and I’m sure that
In our hearts we’ll continue to think about the questions that we have asked and the answers we have given and to keep on keeping on but I would like to go back to the question that you asked me and perhaps give an answer as best as
I can not only did Jesus go through the crucifixion but let’s take a look at something else that Jesus did he was transfigured he was resurrected he made his Ascension now how wonderful that is for the person of Jesus to know and how wonderful it is for
Us to know that Not only was he crucified but he was actually before that transfigured he was resurrected and he makes Ascension those are not only possibilities for us those are those are the desires of God Almighty himself for every son and daughter of God Ascension okay so are you saying
That God wants us to be crucified uh gentlemen I hate to interrupt we are coming up uh rapidly running out of time and we have come to the point where we need to go ahead and do our three-minute closing statements uh for each of you so
Uh Verner if you want to go ahead and and make a three-minute closing statement if you are ready let’s go ahead and proceed with that well thank you Lee and I’ll I’ll go ahead with that right now if you uh among those who keep an open mind
And who are eager to learn new and scientific truths keys that will unlock your full potential and free you from a sense of drudgery and frustration if you are looking for a more effective means to help your family and friends and at the same time discover your inner self
If you believe there is a purpose to life that the spark was not intended to go out then we invite you to take advantage of facts and findings that you may have never imagined could be true or possible thank you very much thank you again Werner for being here
With us thank you I’d like to mention here in my closing statements that for those that have heard about the Lost Years of Jesus as mentioned by Elizabeth Claire Prophet I want to recommend right away there’s an excellent book called The counterfeit Christ of the New Age movement by Ron Rhodes published by
Baker Book House it answers and refutes all of the teachings about Jesus for being in these India and all these kinds of places I also like to mention other teachings that I didn’t get around to asking Verner about but their doctrine of salvation is like Hinduism and Eastern thought in general and the
Essence of Salvation lies and self-realization when one becomes aware of One’s Own Divinity salvation is accomplished this is something they teach I didn’t get into a lot of the teachings that they have that I wish we had had time for their ideas on end times Church humanity and so forth they’re also their
Teachings on animism where they believe that Spirits inhabit non-living elements of nature like the sun is an example you know I could quote things from there but I’m running out of time rapidly okay I’d like to say in conclusion that the church Universal and triumphant cannot and in the final analysis be considered
Anything other than an antichrist religion that is described in such places as first John chapter 2 verse 18 and verse 22 also chapter 4 and verse 3 and 2nd John verse 7. the gospel of the church church Universal and triumphant is another gospel is described by Paul
In Galatians chapter 1 6-9 just as Paul mentioned there an angel from heaven preaches another gospel this could easily be one of the Elizabeth Claire prophets ascended masters who are described well on first in second Corinthians chapter 11 verses 13 through 15 about those who come as angels of
Light but really are the the The Messengers of Satan the church Universal and triumphant has all the the marks of an antichrist Christian religion such as the deify man humanize God minimize sin ostracize the scriptures they have a different Jesus a different sound Ovation a different Spirit modern day
Prophet they think they have the only way for the true church uh in in the sense of the ascended Master speaking through their prophet and just remember and Jesus said in Matthew chapter 7 verse 15 beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but in
Earlier but ravaging wolves and in a final analysis we find in John Chapter 14 verse 6 Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and no man come to Father except by me that’s Jesus Christ not Buddha or anyone else if you like our YouTube Channel Please
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