Kabbalah and Gender Roles Exploring Masculine and Feminine Energies With Zevi From Seekers of Unity

Zie from Seekers of unity I so glad to have you here thank you for joining me thank you for having me Ser it’s really great to be here with you so you have this captivating YouTube channel you talk about I mean you’re you’re a a quite a religious Jewish person um and

You talk about mysticism but what’s really interesting is that you you really deal with all sorts of faiths I mean you talk to people from like every different religious background that I can think of and you kind of connect them all to this point of shared unity in

Mysticism and one question I have is what is mysticism just thought I’d start you off an easy one yeah that’s a that’s a great kind of easy question um well firstly it’s it’s so nice to to sort of hear back reflected the work that I’m doing

Uh with a real person that I can see at least through the screen here you know a lot of the work that we do in this digital space that we’re in is very disconnected and disembodied and is like is is done an isolation so it’s really

Nice even just to hear back what I’m trying to do from from another person so that’s really sweet uh and very very heartwarming thank you seren there’s there’s um there’s a few definitions that I’ve landed on in my exploration of mysticism um it’s it’s it’s it’s troubling because there really is no

Consensus in contemporary Academia about how the word ought to be used there’s a joke told in the field that for every scholar of mysticism there’s another definition of mysticism which is not untrue the two the two definitions which I which I most have connected to one comes from an early 19th century

Anglican scholar by the name of Evelyn anill uh she defines mysticism as the art of Union with reality the art of Union with reality which is like a magnificent definition which we can unpack uh and for a bit more of a technical definition as a modern 20th century definition from Peter Moore

Which is that mysticism comprises of three things which is a variety of unitive experiences a variety of unitive theories and a variety of unitive practices um practices which both bring the individual back into the experiences which then in our attempt to reconcile those experiences with our reality generate the theories these unit of

Theories mysticism and then the practices of how we behave in the world going forward knowing what we know and having experienced what we’ve experienced so I think between those two definitions of more and and Hill um that’s that’s what I get a sense of what mysticism is it’s the art of Union with

Reality um as has trickled through experience theory and practice what is the opposite of mysticism that’s a that’s a great question I think I think the opposite of mysticism and it’s a funny question because if mysticism is the unitive um then the opposite we we assume is going to be that which is

Going to be presenting or experiencing or practicing some form of disharmony of separation of isolation alienation by furcation fragmentation um and I think that experiences where we feel our self as fundamentally other and separate from from something else anything at all whether that’s nature whether that’s pots of ourselves that

We’re alienated from whether that’s each other individuals families Nations um whe there re we sense a real Rift uh between them or theories that tell us that we really are different than someone else in some fundamental ways and and we really can’t Unite with with one another um and practices which which

Instantiate those those perceived differences I think that would be uh the opposite of mysticism excellent excellent excellent definition and opposite I I just came back from a from a 7-Day it’s not it’s not a retreat it’s this guy Jesse McKay runs these intensive developmental sessions and we

We go off to the blue mounts for a week and it’s um yeah it’s just incredibly intense and it’s kind of like spiritual therapy for 12 hours a day with like eight other people nine other people and um I just came back from that and so I’m it’s at the

Forefront of my Consciousness and when you said the opposite of mysticism I’m glad I asked that question because you said um what you described was something like a fragmentation and um not being what I would describe as aligned with with oneself and I noticed in Jesse

That part of this retreat was was was Finding ways that we were triggered like like intentionally kind of being with them so for instance one one thing that I noticed that I did was when there was a lot of a certain type of Confrontation I would shut down and I would like avoid

Ey contact with people and just like not want to talk like there was this heavy weight on me that didn’t want to talk and uh I talked to Jesse about it and he was like oh that’s like a survival strategy like maybe when you were a kid

Um the best thing to do when there was conflict was to like kind of just stay out of it and and Um not engage too much and survival strategy is is it’s not like I had a fantastic childhood but it’s it’s more like that was maybe on the schoolyard or something that was that was the strategy that you used to get by and that was very true and I I

Didn’t even realize I was kind of using that strategy or that’s that’s what this was like it was some ingrained childhood thing and I noticed in the whole time um Jesse who’s this like wizard I mean he’s he’s incredible he he didn’t use anything like that I

Mean people could hurl insults at him and and people really did like they they got very angry and they said all sorts of really nasty things to him at some point or one person did in particular and he just kind of like took it and was very kind back and

Transform the situation with this incredible Grace and to me that is Unity um with oneself and with reality it’s it’s it’s not having these fragments because my like quote unquote survival strategy left me with no choice in how to interact with the world like once I was triggered I just shut down

And I didn’t have the choice to interface with it differently um I actually did come out of that but at at at that point in time um and I noticed that with you actually I I said something earlier before this podcast that was uh unintentionally afterwards I realized

Would have been quite triggering for a lot of people and you interfaced with it beautifully and you didn’t show any hint of anger or resentment and you turned it around very with a lot of intellect and a lot more grace and so uh to me you do you represent unity in

This very compelling way that’s very kind of you to say I I really appreciate that I um just as a disclaimer I I think there’s a lot of areas in my life and within myself that I’m still working on integrating uh and struggling with um my

Own shadows and demons and I don’t want to give anyone the false impression that that I’ve achieved some sort of um Perfection I think that’s an unhealthy standard or expectation and I think um being in a position of of authority and and teaching and leadership in this

Space it’s important to to precisely uh disavow those those Illusions about ourselves so that we can approach each other uh as peers and humans and and learn from each other in in in our strengths and and and in our weaknesses um but I but I very much appreciate um

You seeing that and and I I think that a lot of this has to do with what our fundamental assumptions are about each other ourselves in the nature of reality and if we do believe in a very deep fundamental uh you know in a way that it

May not be theological in a contemporary sense but it certainly still has the gravity of theology if we if we still believe in in that with that gravity that there’s really other and there’s really evil and there’s really bad out there then we can assume that of other

People and when we assume bad of others then we respond um in kind and we we we lash out and we we defend and we we um we we don’t try and see their positivity and see see the goodness and I think that holding on to a fundamental assumption

Not even of the the the goodness of reality um but of but of the commonality of reality that we’re that we’re in this together as one um then we’re forced to Grapple with that honestly together um as opposed to pushing someone out of of the bounds of of civil loving

Discourse that reminds me of the Jewish um the difference between the Jewish and the Christian idea of God and Satan um and I am not very well versed in this I think um you probably know about 50 to 100 times more than I do so but my

Interpretation is that um we have this very I think pretty much everyone would know that like the Christian idea of God and the devil are that like the very separate creatures like the devil is is is this incarnate of Pure Evil and the God is goodness and in

Judaism Satan is as far as I can understand is uh actually working for God the the metaphor that I’ve heard is that a king wants to test out his son the Prince the Future King and he says uh so he hires a prostitute to tempt the king the prince sorry and The

Prostitute will do her job to the utmost degree she will try as hard as she possibly can to tempt the prince but she wants him to she wants him to succeed and as far as I can understand Satan is is portrayed in this way or yeah it’s it’s it’s kind of like like

Um even evil is good in Disguise but I I don’t know maybe that’s not an in-depth enough uh understanding I would love to hear your point of view no I think I think that’s a that’s a fair depiction and that’s a a a Jewish articulation um based on you know

Midrashim classic rabic literature that describe um Satan in that way I think I think often we have Pro we have trouble in religion where we use the same word across religions and we assume that we mean the same thing uh so we talk about Satan in Christianity Satan in Judaism

Shaan in Islam we assume that they’re all you know the same the same entity and and when suddenly they’re not even even when we say God you know we use the one word for all three that’s that’s so that’s still a dangerous thing to do um

And I I think the the one thing which I’ll add to to what you said but I think you summed it up beautifully there is that the the the story form of the king sending a prostitute to try and seduce the sun has a particular um mythological um register which places

The story into separate um personas the Persona the archetype of the king the archetype of the prostitute the archetype of the Sun and I think that the the danger in that is that it can while it’s while is that just a really important message that the that

The that the function of the Satan is is is a functionary of the king uh to test and and perhaps strengthen the prince um and not as a separate um realm of evil what it can do still is it can still place that story outside of us and

It can and we can forget that we are the king We Are The Prostitute We Are The Prince and and we are doing all we are the one who who sends who sends the The Prostitute to test our ourselves um so I I I think there’s some updating of the

We need to um sort of internalize the the mythology once again and that’s just sort of a step that I would add but but only only to add not to not to to um to to detract from what you said which I think was well said there’s this

Um I don’t know quite describe a sodic but there is this branch of person in uh that type of person in Judaism called it stic and the way I understand it is um there’s a there’s a there’s a type of really good person under thetic and

I’m I’m going with I’ve I’ve done a Tanya class I’m going with kabad literature but like um uh a b is a type of person that is a really really good person person uh but they still struggle and they may be perfect in their actions um I’m not sure if that exists

But they still struggle with thoughts that tell them to do the wrong thing uh and they they successfully work with or ignore those thoughts um and then the sadic is very very rare person who has completely transform the thoughts from uh Satan into or from like they they they don’t appear

Or they don’t seem to have any sort of negative impulses um and I wonder if being aoic is truly seeing Satan as God it’s um I think it’s delightful how how um how the most finest articulations of Faith sound the most radical there’s something of a a humor in the logic of

Theology there itself um I I would say a step further even that the sadik has the capacity not only to to see Satan um as nothing other than God an expression of divinity um serving the function that it does but but the toic is able to to actually appreciate the

To appreciate that function um and to see it as a there as a almost like as a delightful um opportunity through which one can come closer to God there’s a beautiful beautiful idea in the Jewish understanding of of mitat of positive um actions versus a negative actions where

The a the negative action is is shunned is seen as to avoid but from the perspective of the tadik and even higher than the sadik in some sense the Bala one who is the master of returning to themselves and returning to God in the process um that all of their aat all of

Their all of their sins all of their misconduct actually becomes part of their the positive makeup that brings them closer to Divinity um in that sense there’s there’s a there’s a cherishing um of of of of the evil itself because the evil becomes a spirit God from which

One returns to to to reality as as underill puts it there’s um there’s a interesting verse in in in the early chapters of the Book of Genesis where God says let us make Mankind in our image and uh all of the biblical commentators ask who is God speaking to in the plural

Who is our image that God is making Mankind and if God is presumably the only thing that exists before the creation of of the world and there are different answers given one one answer classically is that God is speaking to Heaven and Earth that the human being is

A combination of Body and Soul Heaven and Earth and God is speaking to them When God Says in our image but uh other answers that God is Consulting with the angels something that we see you know in the Book of Job and elsewhere but one answer the med says is that God is

Consulting with the souls of the righteous with the souls of the tadim um which is an interesting idea because you know humans are not yet created but there’s already Souls of the righteous there’s sort of some interesting theology going on there um but it it begs a question because if the

Souls of the righteous already exist then why why create mankind at all why create Adam and Eve if if the souls of the righteous seemingly the Pinnacle of of creation are there then just hang out with the souls of the righteous don’t don’t make this messy world of ours that

Needs to go through eons of pain and suffering and destruction um all to come back to to maybe achieve a state of righteousness which seems so far from us and the answer that’s given uh in Jewish mysticism is that God creates the world Consulting with the souls of the

Righteous so that the righteous themselves May return and repent and become balich become masters of return um and that is the stage where where the evil itself where Satan itself becomes seen as not only a part of divinity but a part of divinity which brings us closer to to the Divine closer to

Ourselves I appreciate and I resonate with the mysticism aspect of this but the question I have now is how can somebody who’s struggling with everyday issue use this for themselves like let’s say someone’s struggling with anger for instance um they they fly into rages and scream at people they love

How how can they take this this this piece of divinity and then use it in themselves I think there’s two sides to to answering a question like that um one is recognizing that whatever is the source of one’s anger um must be divine and divine world

As well if everything is divine um and this is this is I think a very um we can put this in a spis language that we can see reality Subs species temporal we see things as we see them on a on a day-to-day basis and things can anger us

Because they’re not how we want them to be or we can recognize the reality of the omnipresence of divinity of of of being of reality um what spos would call substance to see things Subs species Eternal eternus to see things under the aspect of Eternity and and from that

Place we understand that that things are the way they are and they cannot and and must and they cannot have been any other way and therefore to to be angry says the mishna um is to is is to be to serve idolatry idolatry which is like the

Great great sin in the Bible um later in Jewish mysticism is understand as as any function of of duality of of separating something from God to to say that there is an idol means that there is that God is not here right that’s that’s what idolatry means essentially um so if we

If we truly believe that everything was divine then there would really be no space for us to become angry at anything um and I I’ll qualify that statement in just a second and it’s and it’s it’s and therefore the rabbis equate anger with idolatry because it’s it’s saying that

That which happened I’m now angry at because it’s not part of the Divine or the divine plan um There Are Places just to qualify that for a second there are places in Jewish thought and in Jewish mysticism and elsewhere where there there is righteous indignation which is called

For says the psalmist that the the ls of God um hate evil um which which brings us back to our question earlier that there that there that there may be moments where something we can recognize that something in its in its source is really uh there to bring us close closer

To that which which always is um and yet in in the way it manifests we can hate that we can hate the suffering of others we can hate the fact that there are people in this world that go through ungodly amounts of pain um and we and

And we’re supposed to hate that and our hatred should drive us to alleviate their suffering so um and and that that’s a qualifier which keeps us from mystical pacifism which is which is possible direction to go if we see everything subp species is eternus um that’s that’s I think the

First the first answer I think the second answer is to to look deeper into our anger and to ask why why is it coming out and where is coming out from and to see it itself as an expression of divinity in some sense and to to allow

That to be your springboard uh closer to reality um but and that’s subtle work of of of really being able to to in once the ingor has passed us to step back and and really try and unpick uh where that’s coming from why it’s coming out

And and how how is that an expression of a Divinity and that’s and that’s challenging work so I think the first step is to is is the acknowledgement that that all the all is divine and therefore to dissipate and to to regulate our anger and then second

Acknowledgement is to look at the anger itself and ask and how is that Divine I’m interfacing that with my own understanding of anger and I really like your response because I’ve heard something similar to I think part of the first response you gave which was and I’ve heard it maybe

In a more basic way that wasn’t as maybe I found it too simplistic which is like um I’ve heard negative representations of anger like um if you’re angry then I don’t know it’s it’s it’s not essentially what it boils down to to me is something like you shouldn’t be

Angry right um and when I hear that the image I have is when like if you have a tree that has multiple branches coming out and right before then you you cut off the tree you cut you you prune the tree right here um it it stops the flow of energy and the

The tree wants to continue that flow of energy it has that energy and so it comes out up here and that’s why you get these trees with these big shoots that come straight up and they look a bit odd most of the time and they’re not quite right they’re not really in alignment

With it takes away a part of the tree’s Beauty and um often times I hear this expression of like you shouldn’t be angry and to me it probably just causes it probably just gives someone another mechanism to shame and hate themselves with um rather than stopping anger the the

Way I see anger is I think more like your second a lot more like your second Point um anger to me is often times almost every time or maybe every time there’s something underneath an anger like a pain and the anger seems to be uh protecting me from feeling pain or

Feeling more pain or like I mean often times anger is just someone’s crossed my boundary and I didn’t say anything maybe when the anger was very little and now it’s it’s big and I’m very angry because I didn’t righteously stand up for what my anger was telling me in the

Beginning yeah it’s it’s it’s it’s difficult because I I feel very thankful for my anger and it’s hard for me to adopt the perspective that anger is somehow something that I shouldn’t feel although that being said when I when I do for I don’t think I express myself as well as I could

There uh the point is to resolve the anger I mean the point is to to listen to what the anger has to say about like you cross my boundaries and then assert a boundary uh especially when it’s very small when the anger is at like 5%

That’s the best time to do it because I can assert my boundary without like blowing up at someone for instance um and so to me the anger is also god um and I think you did Express that very well I I I think we’re in alignment but I’m not quite sure yeah it

Sounds it sounds like it sounds it sounds it sounds like that I think I think maybe it’s worth distinguishing kind of two sides of anger here this this space of like the anger with the righteous the um like the psalmist refers to um this like a refined anger if we can call

It um which is a tool which is an important tool and which is a a morally necessary tool sometimes and an effective tool um and then there’s and then there’s an unrefined anger and this is the same really for everything uh our passions our desires

Um are the the way that we spend our time and and and look at a tree um there’s a way to do it that’s within a context of realization and a way to do that that’s that’s unconscious or unrealized um and I think that if we were to be in a world which

Was um full of people that were angry jealous um in cure Frid spiteful in ways that were um unrealized or or unredeemed or unrectified or unrefined that would um that would be quite a uncomfortable and and unpleasant well to live in um and if those same attributes and traits were able to be

Refined and examined and clarified and uplifted um not that they would be eradicated necessarily but we could we could understand like why is it that we why are we afraid of what we’re afraid where is that where is that speaking from inside of us deeply um why what what makes why are we

Angry about the things we’re angry about uh where where is there place for for for sacred jealousy and in the Jewish tradition there’s a place for all of these there K from there the jealousy of the scribes increases wisdom there there’s a place for each one of those

Emotions um that are mirrored according to the cabalists that the tph out which present all the human emotions um manifest both the side of Holiness and in literally the other side the AR and and and their mirror images of one another as the verse in Ecclesiastes

Says um and it’s a it’s a process of of bringing them over into of integrating them into Holiness not not abandoning or dismissing or dismantling um but but rectifying them how do you oh my first question is I’m just throwing you all these easy questions here my first question is um

What is unrefined anger I think I think that’s what you call it unrefined anger like the one that isn’t righteous can you give me an example of of what that might look like um you want a you want a concrete practical example or you want

To you want like a like a met yeah my I think my brain works I think my brain works in concrete and practical and I also like deeply I also want to I want to give your message to the guy who’s a welder you know what I mean like you have something very

Profound and I I yeah I would like people to be able to use it in their everyday lives I appreciate that I just I just want to um I just want to say that it’s not my message and it’s um it’s not it’s not my wisdom I’m like if if if I’m doing my

Job well then I’m just a conduit to the wisdom of Judaism and Jewish mysticism and and maybe also mysticism or broadly speaking and so far as I can um share that well let’s think in our own lives then let’s think about a practical example of when we were lost angry

Um let’s we can stop for a second you you and I can think for a second and the listeners that are joining in can can think when they were when they were angry Um let’s let’s give that a Second I I have I have I have a a moment in my mind um for me anger is often tied into a sense of Injustice um and the moment that I the moment that I conjured uh was a moment when I felt that I was um unjustly treated

Um and and maybe then if we can theorize for a second the distinction between a a refined or rectified anger um is if we were able to see if we’re able to be equally um incensed about the Injustice perpetrated against um any of any aspect

Of reality any of God’s faces as much as our own then that would seem to me to be a rectified anger and when our is restricted isolated um to our limited conceptions of self that seems that there’s still some rectifying to do um which is not to say that there aren’t

Moments that that the self and the ego needs to be angry about things and establish it its boundaries and borders and it also needs to to be there and survive but uh when we can only get angry let’s say about about um things that pertain to us and and we have no

And we have complete disregard for for we don’t feel angry when we see someone else being maltreated then that might point to um to some to some refining that that anger still needs thank you you’re welcome I’m uh I really loved I’ll change the topic now I

Uh I think that was a beautiful way to to finish to wrap up that that that bit um I really loved your video on female Jewish Mystics um that was by far my favorite um that you’ve done and it made me contemplate this uh the role of the feminine in in Judaism but

Also in life like to me especially in our in our modern society I my projection is that we tend to see a lot of women uh or or like societ Society or or whatever it seems to be kind of pushing women to take on very masculine roles um in terms

Of like becoming the bread winner and being competitive and um being independent and and and things like that and I don’t think those are negative traits to have and I have a lot of those traits and I I I love a lot of those traits in myself uh but to me it seems

Like femininity has been equated with weakness in like modern Western Society uh and with negativity and I am just now in the last few years um starting to look for positive aspects of like that kind of I’m looking for that kind of radiant femininity that that seems so hard to

Define and clarify for myself um and I’m I’m wondering what Judaism has to say about like the different roles of of of men and women and um how they can both flourish and find happiness and contentment in the life that’s a delightful question um first I want

To acknowledge and and um agree with what you said that in the Contemporary World in our in the attempts to to elevate the status of women in society um the elevation was to elevate them to the place of the male um as opposed to seeing what it is what it means to be

Feminine and to elevate the feminine to the feminine as opposed to elevating it to the male and I think we’re beginning to see the some of some of the the decay of that of that of that attempt um and the question of the question of what does it

Mean to be masculine what does it mean to be feminine seems to be uh questions of great importance um I think there’s a crisis of masculinity as much as there’s a crisis of femin femininity um and I think in moments of crisis in modernity we turn to ancient sources of

Wisdom which may have understood these archetypes these these these images symbols um in ways that we have may that we may have lost access to in our rush into mity and I think that mysticism and Jewish mysticism um has a lot to say about about what it means to be masculine what

It means to be feminine um and that applies to both to both men and women um and to people that don’t identify with either of being able to channel and get in touch with with both of those internal aspects of them because firstly from a calistic perspective every human being contains

Both masculine and feminine because the Divine is comprised in its manifest form in both masculine and feminine um and therefore we as expressions of divinity contain both masculine and feminine and that’s represented again through the image of the spat perhaps the most Central image and symbol or really

Symbolic system um of kabala it might be helpful to talk for a second about masculinity and femininity amongst this furat um in in in an attempt to open up this discussion of what of what masculinity and what Fe femininity May May mean from within a context of Jewish mysticism with with your

Permission yeah can you give a very quick definition of the SP for sure I don’t know if that exists yeah yeah I gave a very quick definition on the channel and it took me an hour so I’ll try I’ll try to do it I’ll try to do it even

Quicker I would I would say it’s it’s uh it’s the aspects of the soul I don’t know if that’s true though like the the different components of the soul but but I would love your yes yes no that’s that’s certainly that’s certainly one of one one way that it’s used I would say

That the spat are a map um and a map which primarily Maps three things um and it Maps them sort of translucently or transparently where you can sort of see all three Maps concurrently like sort of stacked um and it Maps the human soul or psyche uh it Maps reality and it Maps

The Divine um so it’s a map of all three the Divine and the Divine manifest Divinity deos re ratus um there there’s a separate you know aspect of Divinity the hidden God which is not comprised of the but God has got to manifest in reality reality as reality

Manifest in the human psyche as an expression of that made in the image of God are all mapped by the by the tat within this spat um there are three channels um there’s there’s different ways of dividing this frat this FR also appear in different configurations but in the configuration that most people

Are familiar with um the configuration which according to the Calas is the configuration of our contemporary um iteration of reality state known as tun state known as parts of different terms to describe it the spat can be divided in that configuration in different ways um and mainly into three groupings

Horizontally and vertically um three in each horizontal and vertical when we divide the SP horiz uh vertically into three groupings we have the masculine on the right side we have the feminine on the left side and we have the union of the two in the in the center column um

And the primary the primary um function of the Sur between left and right between the masculine and feminine is that the right side the masculine side gives and the left side the femin side receives however the when we when we chat when we chat this FR when we when we divide them

Horizontally the final SP which is the quintessence of femininity which is Mal which receives from all of the previous n spat Mal goes and becomes The Giver again which gives forth to ker of the next strata the next the next iterative process of of creation and creativity uh

So in that sense um true true receptivity becomes true giving and the the biological metaphor employed by the calist um taken from the biological relationship between males and females is that the male gives the female a seed in the act of procreation the female receives the seed um and like and that

Happens spherically for the calist metaphorically between the SP of is the seed Bina is the womb which expands the seed um and then gives forth the child which is uh infinitely and Inc commiserate more than it received um this the Mal the final which is this this moment where the

Feminine is for and gives and gives both which is a Messianic moment um is also compared to the Moon which receives light from the sun and radiates that light forward to Earth uh in times of Darkness particularly um Mal is speech it is the mouth it is where it’s the final after

We have an idea in our in our subconscious which makes its way through our thinking we can finally articulate our our speech uh it’s also King ship it’s rulership uh the king is seen as empty um because there’s no king without a people and the people create the king

And the King speaks commands to them so what what the calist do the calist give us a lot of a lot of images um Moon speech mouth kingship birth um house and and together they’re trying to draw us some sort of evocative associative um poetry of what of of what

The of what the feminine is dancing between all those images and provides us an alternative set of images for the masculine and then and through contrasting those we can come up with with what masculinity and femininity means for the capitalists and and those two sets of of of polar that polarity um

I I think may be helpful to inform the way which we understand and construct our own understandings of of gender um and and sex in contemporary Society I’m speaking somewhat vaguely and abstractly here but um I can I’m happy to expound on on any of those points but I just

Want to kind of lay out the the imagistic world of the capitalists in so far as gender is concerned yeah beautifully said I would well one thing about receiving uh it’s very interesting without the the biological metaphor um is that I I suppose I’ve kind of done a study on like what

It what it means to be feminine in in a way um and one thing that I’ve noticed is that um being receptive towards gifts like there’s this very um I think in the past maybe I was perhaps like trying not to receive if somebody wanted to give me a gift and

There’s this very beautifully feminine thing in accepting a gift and showing the the honest giving someone the gift of a back of of of this honest gratitude and letting them experience the joy of giving a gift because if if I don’t receive properly and I say oh you spent

Too much money on me like you know it it kind of it doesn’t it doesn’t actually allow them to feel the joy of giving so one one aspect of femininity is a further continuation of that is showing raw emotion without like if I were to say

Like uh you shouldn’t have given me that gift um it was too expensive uh it’s it’s it’s kind of a command on them which is um ve a very masculine trait and I’m I’m not trying to shame myself or shame other people for doing that

It’s just kind of how I how I would categorize things and there’s obviously from for women to give commands I’m not saying we need to be enslaved and forced to do whatever you know but I’m just kind of categorizing them into two different separate buckets um but the

Act of like even if I were to say like um I’m so thankful and I feel overwhelmed at your generosity like that’s in itself displaying the same the same sentiment but from a very emotional standpoint and from a more vulnerable standpoint uh and I I I think yeah femininity is receptivity in

In many ways yeah I I think it’s also firstly I’m I’m genuinely glad um to be able to be in touch with my own um femininity in this discussion and to to see where Within Myself um I cherish my own receptivity um and where

That’s a gift in my life and also to be in conversation um with someone else who’s able to to manifest and embody um those those elements I think a lot of these conversations at least in in many worlds that I’m used to happen between people that identify and present primarily as

Masculine um and I think that’s something lost in those conversations and that’s that’s something which I which I wanted to acknowledge firstly and and be appreciative of I I think as well it’s important to if if you want to understand um the the image of of the genders from within a cabalistic

Worldview it’s important to to step away from some of our contemporary assumptions I think that um we we assume that that effusive emotion is feminine and we assume that stoicism and restraint and control is masculine and I think for the cabalist it’s actually not quite like that for the cabalists restraint

Happens on the left side of the surur which is the primary location of restraint um is is in is in the domain of the feminine not the masculine um Bina which is exacting which is logical which is precise which is analytical is feminine not masculine when it comes to

The cognitive because the SP are divided into three when we divide them horizontally which is the cognitive the emotive and the expressive um so in the cognitive um it’s the the analytical which is feminine in the in the in the emotional it’s uh it’s restraint it’s the ability to say no to place

Boundaries which is feminine the masculine counterpart is which is all giving which is which is boundless loving kindness which is represented by Abraham for Sarah um and then in the expressive shat we get into which is Um maybe we can we can p we can hold them up for a second um but but but just just to say that that the assumption that um that um that that the feminine is is sort of unbounded or or or um just sort of gushing is is actually

Not the the the spheric idea of of the sorry not the capitalistic idea of of the feminine when the feminine gives forth in in malood receiving from s which is the central but but also masculine it’s the phallic actually for the this for the CIS which then gives

The final uh moment of of Divine Light in a metaphysical sense uh inspiration or or thought in the psychological sense uh the the final implanting the seed in the biological sense when it gives it over to Mal the the responsibility Mal is to convey that in a way that’s actually um

Going to be viable and going to going to live on um when we when we speak a sentence right a sentence is constructed out of discret syllables words um and and they have to make sense they have to be sequential if I just begin to blabber

And speak in tongues I’m not I’m not doing the role of the feminine M I’m not I’m not giving over the I’m not bothing that child the idea um the artwork in a way that’s comprehensible um yeah so just to just to maybe um

Add um add a bit to the texture of what the feminine means for the cabalist and also to to remind ourselves and those listening that once again for the cabalist these the masculine and The Feminine do not take place within male and female bodies they take place within

All of our bodies and psyches that the entire process is is present in in every moment of reality um and in every human as far as the catalst are concerned I agree um to the extent that I understood what you said I think I have the sense that you are speaking words

And there’s just a it’s like an iceberg you’re only speaking like the very top of what you understand and um it goes much deeper um I yeah but I I totally agree that uh masculinity and femininity are are held strongly in in or potentially strongly in both men

And women um and yet in Judaism there’s there is a separation of roles and I I I don’t know if it can be said that in like strict Orthodox Judaism in in the Judaism of of old that we continue on today if uh if men and women are expected to hold

Both masculine and feminine traits in the same in the same way in the same to the same extent to the same level and I’m perfectly happy to be wrong about that I think there’s um maybe a missing piece of the Orthodox puzzle here in so far as I can um

Orthodox is a weird word let’s say Judaism um the Jewish puzzle in in classic Jewish text and sources beginning with the Bible um the instruction given to Adam and Eve um in in the in the beginnings of Genesis are that therefore shall a person abandon their father and mother their

Parents and cleave cling Unite with their with their spouse and become one flesh become one body become one body is a very strange phrase and many biblical commentators again seiz upon this verse and phrase and try to make sense of it um and there are all kinds of different answers given what it

Mean what does it mean to become one flesh um and there’s some more practical and pragmatic answers that for example when if and when two people have a child together the child is a combination of the DNA of both of them and in that sense they are one flesh together but

There are other mystical commentators um that come in differently um and and they say that when two people come into uh a sacred Union they reveal a Unity which always existed between them um you know there’s there’s a parallel in in Plato’s dialogues of his myth of humans which

Begin um conjoined as as male female and and they kind of like roll around to get from place to place and then they become separate um and that and you have the same myth uh in and I use myth in in the most serious voice ways um in Judaism

Where Adam and Eve are conjoined to one another back to back and then they need to be separated um and a process which for the cabalist is a psychological and metaphysical process of the the severing of masculine and feminine from one another so that they can be reunited and

Recombined face to face as one um and I think the understanding in Judaism as filed through Jewish mysticism is that in a perfect coupling um those two buddies which which to our eyes seem to be separate are really one body reunited they’re one Soul that’s come back

Together the the yin the yin and yang that have found each other once again uh and therefore um I think that from a Jewish perspective if we’re to speak um indigenously about Judaism we cannot fully speak uh and and I want to say this carefully because I don’t I I this

Can be misconstrued and used as an excuse for oppression and misogyny and I want to be careful that that that that I’m not implying it that way but I think in in a sacred and in a in a holy context um when the masculine and feminine are perfectly balanced within a

Person um that person is the couple um and and and therefore the balance of masculine and feminine happens between the two of them and also also amongst them and also independently and also uh collectively um there’s the the four spirits of Love That Des speaks about um based on a

Verse in the in the in the song of songs um kiss me with the kisses of your lips because your love is better than Wine and the zor expounds upon why there’s a double plurality in the verse and and the zor says that there are basically four movements of love in every couple

There’s the couples as they offer themselves the couple as they relate to another and then the collectivity of the couple and then the fifth is the Messianic Spirit uh which which hovers in the face of the water which which which is what comes from that Union together

Um by all of this is what I mean to say is that when we when we analyze a Jewish couple from within the lens of Judaism um we ought to see them as a reunited conglomerate as opposed to two separate entities um and that’s that’s the

Analysis um worth doing I will add to that as well um to be sensitive to those individuals where those um heteronormative forms of Union are are prohibitive and oppressive passive and not available frankly that that Union can happen within a person and that that sense of unity can be there and and we

Can become United with God within ourselves and our and and on our own as well um that’s um if if if if that made sense but that’s a few points in relation to what you were saying every time you say Messianic I get [Laughter] triggered um for the audience when when you Google

Things you’re trying to find out about Judaism you look up like I was I was trying to do research into the components of the umor service yesterday and then like oftentimes a lot of the first results are Messianic Judaism which is just Christianity in Disguise and

Uh that that that word I don’t hear that word used a lot in uh traditional Judaism but uh it’s it’s refreshing to see it used a a different cont context um but I I I did want to say it’s it’s it’s very interesting that you you say that

Uh the couple is its own entity because I I have noticed that like if I if I am annoyed that my partner Elliott isn’t doing something that I would consider masculine um he has many things that are masculine but like if if there’s one particular thing that I’m

Annoyed about um my go-to is to express anger and and try to get him to change in a very deliberate you know uh like nagging way and Um that in my interpretation is a very masculine expression and so my interpretation of of what happens is that I don’t give him space to take on I’m taking up more masculinity in the couple and I don’t give him space to take up his own masculinity um but I’ve kind of realized recently

That if I go against my first impulse and take on a space of what we call hold holding a container for him for instance and this is just one way to do things but um what I would call holding a container is uh asking him how he’s doing maybe in a specific

Context and then allowing him to speak freely without interjecting any of my own issues or biases especially negative biases um into the conversation and just giving him a space to kind of speak his mind and his emotions and come up with his own Solutions without M intervening um then it seems as if

If if I do adopt that femininity like he has more room for masculinity but also maybe I’ve just given him on a more practical level I think I I can just give him more confidence in my trust in him and then from a place of Feeling confident And safe in himself he can go out into the world and just kind of naturally take on a more masculine role um and I guess the messages or the the the the models that I’ve received in women are are are generally uh more more commanding or Naggy based and um I think this

Is I I don’t I don’t always or even like I still struggle to to to take on a more feminine role but I find that when I manage to do it it it genuinely seems to help um everything like the polarity is real I think one party yeah I I I would

Just I’m I’m sure it’s probably the same for the men out there who are watching like if you if you’re interested in your your women taking on a more feminine role I’m just saying men and women just for the sake of it like whatever you are

Just in insert your own life into this but if you’re interested in in for instance your woman taking on a more feminine role I wonder if uh taking on a more masculine role might might help as well although I’m not a man I’ve never tried it but uh I think I have this

Habit of I have this need to like concretize everything you say um to like so I can understand it in like a in a in a in a real life context yeah the concrete from the perspective of the Calis is resides within the The Sur within the realm of Mal which is the

Feminine the Mal is that which which is concretization so um so that’s that’s that’s aopo yeah matter matter is is feminine spirit is masculine for the catalst as well yes so the materialization of a concept um is is feminine I I just want to I just want to

Um I just want to double down on what you said and and and and agree I think I think I’m speaking maybe somewhat abstractly and I’m I’m trying to be delicate to what’s a very large Universe within the world of the calist and I don’t want to say anything which is um

Overly simplistic or reductionistic uh in regards to the vision of the CIS when it comes to the masculine and feminine but but maybe for the sake uh of the medium it might be helpful to to say something which is a bit more um actionable or or pointed um in in lines

With what you’re saying um which is which is that I think we live in a day and age where we’re afraid to step into our own roles of masculinity and and and femininity and I think that if we’re able to to live a little myth mythologically and to see the these

Archetypes alive in our own lives and to see the masculine as a mighty king and a warrior and a provider and and for able to see the feminine as a mighty Queen a nurturer and a shelter um and and and and a mother and again those apply to

Both men and women in um and we’re able to to Champion that in one another and Champion that in ourselves um the the image of like the the masculine for the cabalist is is is linear is like a mighty sword and the the feminine is

Circular is like a ring or a chalice um like a golden chalice and if we can see like if we can Elevate each other to those states of like mythological Grandeur um I think I think this this particularly when there’s there’s such a crisis um of not knowing who we are and

And how we can treat one another if we’re able to to Really step in depth into those mythological roles for ourselves and for each other with with a great amount of dignity um and and almost an awe of what it means to be the presence of the feminine and or vice

Versa what it means to be in the presence of the masculine like um maybe not all day this might be a bit much to ask for but but in certain moments to to tremble you know in front of what it means to be standing in front of a representation of femininity or a

Representation of masculinity like these are these are powerful powerful mythological images and I think that we live in a world which is so um one-dimensional ontologically and so so flat um in its in its in its metaphysics that we’ve lost our capacity for that sense of awe and Grandeur uh and that

Affects every area of life life and and particularly I think um our interpersonal and intergender relationships and our interpersonal and ingender relationships um and if we can tap if we can tap into that I think I think there’s a richness of the Poetry of life

That we can that we can uh enhance our own relationships and experiences thereby yeah absolutely I really resonated with ingender relationships like I am a huge fan of women’s Gatherings and I want more men’s Gatherings too where I I think Judaism has these um kind of built into the structure where

There are a lot of gatherings for for just men are just for women and it’s really beautiful it’s a different energy and it’s a different vibe and there’s this there’s a certain connection yeah it’s just you you can kind of I mean it’s going into a woman’s space there’s a

Really beautiful feminine energy that people intentionally tap into and and put out and it’s so nourishing I really love it and uh there are so many aspects of religion that I think people who are atheists don’t quite don’t quite understand what they’re missing out on like and I don’t know if they can

Replicate really very easily I I would I would maybe just draw lines yeah go I would draw those lines maybe elsewhere I think um I think they’re very religious atheists or or non-theists um I think it’s people with a sense of you know sense for the religiosus for

For for um and that that’s that’s both amongst theists and non-theists I I would just maybe draw that line a little elsewhere zebie we need clickbait okay so I need you to say shut up you’re an idiot you’re far too we need zie destroys uh whatever you know insert

What you want to call me I’m sure put in the comments what you would call me I mean let me know but uh we we need you to destroy me in in the in the title so like is this um you didn’t you you didn’t get triggered at all um there’s no

Anger I wonder as someone who’s involved absolutely right as someone who’s involved in this in this uh internet world of O I wonder how we can collectively because we’re all building it you know at at ship the ship at Sea I wonder how we can collectively build an

Internet where um what’s incentivized is compassion and Humanity uh and and and poetry and inward goodness and and silence um as opposed to destruction obliteration um um you know explosions and and and and the pace of it all which which um yeah the internet in some ways is like this um very

Great magnified mirror of of what goes inside of us and we have this this this morbid um fascination with death and D destuction uh and and and the car crash that the internet is becoming you know it needs there’s this sort of acceleration of of of violence and and

Aggression and and speed um and I wonder I wonder how we can collectively as people that are creating the internet as we speak um Envision a kind of reflection of our own uh internal psyche you know because there part of our psyche which deeply cherishes Beauty and respect and

And uh I I would love if it was an inset where it’s like a man respects woman in all caps you know and that that goes that goes viral as much as man destroys woman you know um because and and and the reality is is that the impulse the

Impulse for life life which is slow because life is slow um for dignity for Honor for or for humility for kindness is is as strong an Impulse um it’s it’s maybe the um slower impulse it’s like a you know having a a well cooked balanced

Meal as opposed to some bars of candy um but I think I think if we’re thinking about sustainability um we can we can Envision a a different and better internet together it’s hard I I don’t I I like I like your vision I don’t I don’t know how to get there

Um it makes me think of I I listen to this Dan Dan Carlin podcast um it was an episode called painfotainment and it was a he’s a historian and he talks about Like Gladiator Arenas where they would torture kill people and most people showed up like and we

Think of it as something like uh barbaric from the past but then he says well if there was a movie going on and it featured all the biggest celebrities um like nowadays I guess Mr Beast would be in it you know um you know just huge celebrities Tom Cruz

Whatever insert your own and they really died in the death scenes they actually died how many people do you think would see it like 30% of the population 40 50 you know would you see it like um and I I I think I don’t think we’ve changed since the the days of The

Barbarians I think death is still something that’s it’s always been attractive to us not attractive but like a fire I mean you can’t look away really it’s it’s and it’s so important to us I guess important is the word like death is an incredibly important thing and avoiding it is

Avoiding death is a 100 times more important to us a thousand a million times more important to us than than moving towards compassion because when is so final and compassion can be gained again but death can’t be if you don’t escape death once it can’t be escaped again

So um I think the internet is really built upon evolutionary psychology um in this very deep way and I I I like your idea um and there’s little other there are little other issues for instance like you said silence but like if I if I

Listen to a podcast by you and you say go outside go out you inspire me to go outside and touch grass then I turn off YouTube and then YouTube says well they watch this episode and then and then they all turned off the app so we don’t

Want that and so even if I love it I probably get recommended it very much again and there yeah it’s um you’re completely right that’s a beautiful world but I I it goes against some foundational principles these it’s a good question it’s a good question of um can

We dismantle the Master’s house with the Master’s tools you know in age old question um the answer of Jewish mysticism is yes that the axe the handle of the ax is built from the forest itself um so that’s that’s uh in so far as Jewish mysticism voices an

Opinion on that the answer they give is in the is in the affirmative um and in some senses because it’s a realization of the power that exists within those tools um and the necessity to not alienate those tools is other than God but to see them as capacities of redemption as well um

And to to unlock their the Redemptive capacity which they contain within them um which is certainly a teaching that I was raised on when it came to our my relationship to technology um and that’s that’s an active debate within traditional and religious societies um the notion that I was raised on was

Based on a rinic midrash that um asks why did God create gold in this world um and the answer is so that the temple could be adorned with beauty and and the answer the answer there in Hebrew is that God created nothing in this universe that is not for the glory of

God and if we can if we can extract that language from its theological context um we can understand what that might mean in relationship to contemporary technology including uh the internet and the tools at our disposal and furthermore I would say that just as death is and destruction is fascinating and and um

Captivating so is life right we can stare at a fire um unseizing it draws Us in we step for hours um and the and the capacity of fire is to destroy is immense we could also stare at the face of a baby for hours and the life that’s

And the innocence and the potential inherent within them is is is endless we can stare out a waterfall for hours because water is that which gives life and I think that life is as as fascinating as death uh and furthermore I would say that the same way that fire

Can be used to destroy and burn and maim fire can be used to to warm and heat and cook and meld and mend um and death is beautiful it’s it’s the winter which gives birth to to Spring it’s um if we it’s it’s we live we live in a world

Where death and Decay are are so kept away from us um with our obsession with with um with youth and our our There’s real fear and hatred of death um there there was no one a few centuries ago that that hadn’t spent time with a with

A person who was was deceased and these days quite quite the opposite um and that’s that’s I think a defect in contemporary Society the rituals around death and Judaism are immensely beautiful um a body that has passed away um is referred to as as a sacred object

It’s treated with the respect that we treat uh the Torah srel for example we we we we bathe it we cleanse it with purifying Waters um at the hands of a holy Brotherhood kadisha or holy Sisterhood that do that activity and um if we can reimagine uh our relationship with death

Um and with destruction as as an integral part of creation um as part of the cycle of life then perhaps we can rethink the ways in which our Fascinations with death and destruction might be coming from a place of divinity as much as our anger comes from place of

Divinity beautifully said I think um you’re right in this Society we have this fear of death like fear of the unknown I mean we even when someone dies except for in Judaism um in in in typical Western culture bodies are generally taken away very quickly um you don’t spend time with

Them I think so in Judaism the the body has to be buried in 72 hours and until then someone has to sit with it the the whole time um overnight everything and I think these religious Traditions are so many layered it’s I I don’t want anyone to think that I’m giving an explanation

Of like the only reason this happens but one of the reasons I think this happens is because um we can acquaint we can fully mourn if we see the body and we spend time with the body there’s a process of mourning that allows us to see that they have passed

And um even though intellectually we might know they may have passed it’s different to see the body and it’s it’s healing to see the body and and and and there is a a deep spiritual element there and perhaps just like you said perhaps our society reflects

A lot of people who have not properly mourned or who haven’t properly been acquainted with death in the same way as we should be or we were kind of built to be I don’t know I don’t know exactly to say that yeah death is death is really an integral part of life and

There’s there’s um to imagine them is as separate would be to imagine summer and winter as as separate parts of life and I think if we spent some more time in nature uh we would see how the the death and decay of one strata vegetation of a tree is what

Gives birth to a new bed for melium and insects and flowers and and we we see death as something much more alive than we think it is and in Judaism that’s certainly the case in Judaism death is is a moment of Life uh and we and Judaism classically believes in the

Resurrection the dead that that the Dead return and they continue to be part of the realm of of of life is what we say about a person when they pass away that may be May their soul be bound up in the bundle of eternal life that

Um again it comes back to this question of do we see parts of reality as as other and separate and absent from from Divinity from reality uh and that’s how we understand death right that the moment of cation where we close our eyes and and and and all ends and that’s

Terrifying or do we see it as as part of the hall as not alienated from the hall right to alienate it would be to be against mysticism and in this case I think also against Judaism um or do we incorporate it as part of part of a

Cycle and that’s that’s uh not an easy one uh not a simple one but um but one which is um evident like evidentially true if I said that word right I found a lot of meaning in this exercise so I’ll offer it to the people listening um sit with yourself

And sit with your feelings around death and just sit with what comes up um not your thoughts but your feelings so like for me there’s fear and then that gets transmuted into an acceptance and an awe but then again there’s fear and I I’m not going to sit

With that for 10 or 20 minutes like I would in this exercise but uh it’s something that I would urge you to explore so it’s and it’s very separate from thoughts which are what I think happens after death or a lot of thoughts that come up might distract me from feeling my feelings

Because fear is very hard to feel sometimes and so we want to go into thoughts of like well I’m not going to die for a while or you know whatever other thoughts that come up or like what I think will happen after death or is is there something after death that’s a thought

Like I would urge you to sit down and really just sit with the feelings around death um because I think that that can be quite powerful it has been for me at least and let me know in the comments what what happened let me know if you got

Enlightened I want to make a case for religious atheism if uh if you’re if you’re feeling satisfied with the with the last section if you’re feeling satisfied at a completion how are you feeling um I’m feeling great did you say that you want

To make a case or you want me to make a case I didn’t I didn’t hear you correctly I want to make a case oh please you you pointed out right after the the conversation on femininity what what I did and um I think I made a very

I I I noticed that I did something where I took about five steps ahead in my mind and then just said words out loud without um walking through the process and so there was this like big gap of of disconnectedness that I I didn’t explain much I sometimes do um

But there there’s this there’s this problem with like true atheism right where where which I would consider atheism without living in a structure of religion so I I think you can be a religious atheist um I am not but I think you can be Um and with traditional atheism okay I’ll make a case for a religion just before we start so there’s this thing that religion has like what we just talked about with the ritual around death where we we say sit with the body and we we we we properly mourn it and we’re

We’re doing many other things as well but that’s one thing that happens and because Hashem because God has told us to We Do It um and there is no arguing with that command you can’t argue against someone who is you can’t argue with God right I mean

You can we do all the time but you I don’t think you can win um and so because of that and just a multitude of other rituals especially in Judaism so many rules and rituals um we have all these experiences that we benefit from and you can say like well with atheism

If I’m an atheist I can just sit with the body and that’s true you you can but you will have a family one day and your children may not fully understand why you do it or they may not want to and then over Time you can’t I don’t think as an atheist you can hold on to long lasting structures like that I don’t think you can feasibly have a have a a long in community with these deep and Powerful rituals that people stick to if if you have no God because there

Was always someone to argue against if you were an atheist and so my advocacy for religious atheism is even if you don’t believe in God pretend that you do but I’m interested to hear what you think hm what’s coming up for me is the space between autonomy and

Hrony hetron hrony um between being commanded by something outside of us in this case God uh it’s honom and autonomy and and being compelled from from within I think that a lot of religion and the history of religion is built on hronis command uh which is a classic understanding of what mitzvas and

Judaism were commanded by an all knowing all seeing um Divinity um for whatever reason or no particular reason at all I do think however that the kernels of the deconstruction of that idea are seated very early in Judaism uh and they they flourish and Blossom um later in Jewish mysticism

Inala um there’s a kind of enigmatic statement in the talmud that mitz Lev that in the time to come in the in the end of days um in the escaton the mitzah the Commandments will be nullified there’s certain things that are prohibited uh in traditionally classically in Judaism that are very

Well known uh for example um pig is not Kosher in Judaism and the sages say that in the end of days pigs become kosher which sounds like a joke almost uh and there is an element of of joke in the in the Messianic understanding of Judaism joke and nessism are related

Um the way that these kind of strange enigmatic rinic passages are understood by Jewish mysticism um or at least one way I should say is that what they’re indicating is a shift from metronomy to autonomy from doing these things because we’re told to do them by some sort of

External alien deity to understanding that they are our own desire they are our own true will um we make our we make God’s will our will and by doing so we make our will God’s Will and we really they really just one will um and in that regard uh I think

There’s a further place where the boundary of atheism and religiosity uh is again attenuated and and whittel down um that if at least from a Redemptive standpoint if we can truly understand um why for example resting one day a week out of seven days is really our own

Deepest desire and and a Bastion of our family life of our inner mental health of our spiritual well-being then we do that and we do that absolutely not because some alien Persona came down on a mountain and told us in the form of tablets to do so but because it is our

Will it is the will of reality is God’s will uh as we are able to tap into it so um again uh the Messianic is a um explosive and is a um sort of dangerous and uh and a um um boundary blurring nature to it um and um and I think

That perhaps if I can be audacious to suggest that contemporary forms of religiosity and I can speak for Judaism most intimately um are approaching that that moment where we are able to participate in our own forms of religion not because someone told us to do so but

Because we understand that that is the will of reality that when we see another person on the street who’s hungry we don’t give them food or or or money to buy food because some God told us we give them because we know that that is our deepest truest desire and that is

The desire of reality and that is God’s Will and we don’t need to be commanded and is perhaps what the t means when it says that we know we no longer need to be commanded but Evan mtis the the the the stone itself will yell out to us or

The fire itself will yell out to us uh don’t touch me I’m I’ll burn you and that reality itself becomes transparent and translucent to to its own um deepest desire it’s profound I it’s very interesting because I’ve had my own version of the same thoughts uh

And makes me feel good to see that we’re that that you are reflecting the same thing because it’s it’s also what I’ve been searching for and I have found in in in components in different people but it’s what I’m searching for and ISM like it it seems as

If to me it it feels as if the Enlightenment and the atheist movement has in a way burned off the veil of being forced feeling like we are forced to do things feeling like we’re doing things because God says so and it feels as if or it seems as if Jud

ISM or religion is is J Judaism I’ll say is is going through a decline in in for instance numbers and the amount of perhaps young people who are very interested in it but to me it is kindling for rebirth into exactly what you said into people that understand that we should do MIT

Because we do want to do them because they are in alignment with our higher selves and not because we were told to do them and I have the sense that we’re entering into a new Enlightenment a different Enlightenment but a new rebirth in a sense yeah uh in in in alignment with

Our with our deepest selves and in alignment with the religion I don’t think we’re going I don’t think it involves restructuring the religion or changing it massively to to to be something other than what it is I more like seeing it in a different lens oh I’m only attempting to explicate

Judaism here I don’t think anything that I’ve said is is not directly from a I am Jewish Jewish Source right um yeah it’s it’s certainly it’s certainly not a deconstruction of Judaism it’s a it’s an articulation of Judaism which is solely missing H art yes articulation yeah Um so I wonder why do we keep kosher I have my own answers but uh I’m I’m wondering what your articulation of it is and maybe we should explain what uh keeping kosher is is a very strict set of rules that eliminate most Foods um that people might eat generally I

Mean there are different versions of the same foods for the most part but um it’s a very strict diet and I’m I’m wondering why you think that people that that we keep kosher why do you keep kosher seren what was it I asked why do you keep kosher why do I um

Layers there are always layers but one that stands out to me is I I think in evolutionary psychology a lot and I think that makes up the fundamentals of of a lot of my thought so one of them is the importance of Purity I think all humans have

A a part of their brain designed for Purity and impurity um and it’s used for food for instance like you don’t put rotten food with clean food um I think maybe that’s foundationally some somewhere along the lines of you don’t feed someone rotten meat for instance you don’t put food in your sewage Um and then I think so that’s I mean something we can all get across all understand and then as we evolved uh our minds began to take on more and more complicated ideas but we had only the same space as we had before um maybe a little more

Space in the front of the brain but you know mostly the same space so and Purity is is also uh separation between people for instance um and in Judaism there’s this really beautiful structure that happens where uh Purity is and impurity are are almost never fully separated like

You uh if you have a field full of wheat you should leave a corner of it UNH harvested for the poor and there’s this separation between Purity which would be completely um harvesting the field and impurity which is leaving some of it to to to go to waste ostensibly or

Or to to give away and uh tius which is um colloquial colloquially known as as prayer danglies I think there these um uh cloths that uh that that men wear um I mean I think the the Mitzvah is if if you have a garment with four corners the

CL the uh the corner should be un unwoven um I didn’t I’m not nailing that exactly what the what the Mitzvah is but um there’s a there’s a part of your garment that should be unwoven so the rest of it is in in in order and then

There should be a hint of Chaos um and I mean it just it goes on forever there’s um on pesak there’s uh some people will eat matzah balls on the last night even though they they Rise um and that’s a whole complicated thing you you don’t

Eat bread that’s risen or or or that’s not quite right but you don’t eat risen Foods uh I don’t know how to explain that very succinctly but on the last night you eat something that rises and so so um I think Kut and being kosher is

One layer of reality and there are many and far more than I understand is um fully understanding and practicing Purity because it’s so deeply ingrained as part of the religion and such a fundamental part of the religion in in ways that I do not comprehend um that’s one layer and another is that

Um it separates you from the outside it Separates Me from the outside I’m only speaking about me but uh being Jewish is different than not being Jewish and it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s difficult and it’s amazing at the same time um but those are two that I can think of

Immediately for contacts I can’t I can’t see you right now we talked about this before the podcast but I can’t I can’t see him and I’m profoundly worried that I’ve said the wrong thing and that you’re you sitting there offended at me Um can you see me now I can see a a flash of you now I can see a single frame that’s okay I don’t need to see you I’m just I was just speaking to the the tension in myself oh I was sitting uh just in

Awe of your of your presence of your beauty of your articulation of your depth of an appreciation of what it is to to be Jewish and to have to have voices join the tradition and to add on to the beauty that it is to be Jewish I

Was sitting in um in in great admiration and um reverence thank you thank you I don’t always get it right though I’m converting right now I’m almost finished hopefully who knows God willing um and I’m really feeling the struggle of wanting to do things properly and also at the end of the conversion

There’s uh they’ll ask me questions and um I don’t want to lie I don’t I try not to lie at all but I’m feeling what seems to be a very Universal feeling of uh arguing with God in a way that I know I will never win um but

Uh for instance trying to keep fully kosher and then uh the other day yesterday I just ate something without thinking like I just the old habits are still there or I mean that was mistake right so that’s not quite the same thing um but uh there were points recently when

For instance I ate some fruit that was cut up without a kosher knife and um that was intentional and uh this real sense of of Purity and impurity and I I wonder when they ask me whether I’ve been keeping kosher what I should say because I haven’t been completely pure but I don’t

Think I mean I don’t really know what it means to keep kosher at what level it counts as keeping koser um and at what level I’m lying and I struggle with that a lot do do you know that you’re loved rationally of course but I don’t feel it in this

Moment you know there’s a um there’s a Biblical commandment there’s a Mitzvah that’s a repeated many times you should love the stranger also the convert depending on how you translate it um and if a Mitzvah is a expression of the deepest desire of God in reality

Itself then you are loved and the only reason why it has to be a commandment is because we live in a state where our deepest desires are not uh evident to us but if things were clear we wouldn’t even need to command that love it would

Be it would be self-evident and we would feel it it makes me want to cry not quite to the point where I’m crying but it’s it hits me deeply it’s a very difficult process converting it’s uh it takes over a year just for context and it’s a weekly lessons and

It’s Judaism is a huge religion it’s it’s incomprehensibly huge and I’m only sking Basics and um yeah there’s a constant fear that I’m not enough you know when you said that you reminded me of a story that’s told of one of the great beautiful early masters zus of anali that when zusha was

Dying it was quite clear that he was afraid and they asked him zusha you’re our Master you’re a beautiful human what are you afraid of you you know it seems that you have nothing to fear you lived a life of Purity and kindness and devotion worship service humility presence what are you afraid

Of and he said in words that have become immortalized he said I’m afraid that when I die they won’t ask me why wouldn’t you like Abraham why wouldn’t you like Moses why would’t you like Isaiah and Jeremiah I’m afraid that they’ll ask me why wouldn’t you like

Suha and for some reason when you spoke about your own fear about facing a terrestrial Court um looking weighing up up your soul in some in some sense that’s um strange and bizarre and terrifying that the fear is the fear is why or or am I or can I be my my true

Self and um by then I I assume it won’t be the question won’t be directed to Serene you there’ll be Hebrew name that the question is directed to and that’s ultimately the most scary question we can ask ourselves that um why wasn’t I like Savvy I every day I could have been so

Much more I could have um I could have been so much larger and Kinder and more thoughtful and more giving and um and that’s a question which I think rightfully terrifies us but also hopefully motivates us motivates us to to see that in becoming ourselves we are embodying and becoming

Divine and uh we become what the capitalists call America we become the Chariot of divinity in this world we become the arms and legs and eyes and mouth of God and when we’re able to do that then we are able to fulfill another biblical commandment which is to imitate

God as the Christians have it and what it means to imitate God to walk in God’s ways ask the t t says God is described as a consuming fire um fire as we said before is dangerous and destructive and you can’t walk in the path of fire because it

Scorches scorches the Earth and it burns those who work who walk near it and matud answers that what it means to imitate God in the context of Judaism in the context of of of a Biblical faith is that there are there are acts of God that we emulate and it it it enumerates

Three in specific God cloth the naked Adam and Eve when they’re expelled from the garden in that even in that act of Abandonment and banishment and expulsion God clothes them with the tools and with the garments that they’ll need to survive in a harsh World God after commanding

Abraham to circumcise himself at a rip old age visits him 3 days later at the peak of his Agony God visits the sick and God after instructing Moses to uh write his own death in the final verses of Deuteronomy buries Moses himself uh in a in undisclosed location because he

Did not want his tomb to become a a site of of um worship that would distract people from from Divinity and Moses the Moses is buried in an undisclosed location by God himself and God in that act buries the dead and the T says what it means to be

Divine in Judaism in a Biblical light is to bury the naked is to visit and heal the sick and is to comfort the morning and bury the dead and that’s a scary task because there’s all kinds of other things that are interesting and exciting and enticing and glittery and glamorous in this

World and um clothing the naked and bearing the dead and visiting the sick which um stand as as um sort of models or or representational um Mountain Toops of kindness and and amongst them they incorporate the rest of a realm a world of goodness and kindness those things aren’t um they’re

Not sexy always they’re not um they’re not glamorous they’re not they’re not going to get all of the likes and attention but they are Divine and when we do them we feel that and we know it and we feel we feel how Divine they are we feel how right they are we

Feel how aligned and alive and beautiful they are and how beautifying and enlivening they are um and when we can shift the center of our gravity away from um a self-obsession uh self-pleasure self-aggrandisement and we can shift that to the other Um both in a both in the masculine and feminine paradigm of doing that we can experience that Divinity for ourselves and it’s sweet taste and see says the says the psalmist that that that God is good that godliness is good D in in uh in Arabic is the term for tasting tasting

Divinity um yeah and I I invite people to to to go out and taste it taste what it’s like to suspend an evening of your life volunteering with the the hungry the hurting the downtrod in the marginalized the oppressed spend spend a week spend a month devoting your efforts and your

Talents and your skills to uplifting others and inspiring and educating and enriching and fortifying and supporting and uh it’s it’s sweet as God Alhamdulillah I think now is a good time to finish off I don’t think I can find any words more beautiful than that thank you zie can be found at Seekers of unity and YouTube and I highly encourage you to go and watch every single thing you guys put

Out he will be changed you will come out of his channel a different person as have I think this this conversation has changed me likewise thank you thank you okay we’ll finish there goodbye everyone

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