Eat the Scroll: Church History – Week 4

Single Cur those how about the entire World if you’re living Sing which is a very selfish I also like that people think it’s also funny it’s not theie of between andmany I have a deep seated bias against they Weir me out they Weir you out they just like offbrand germanyy German flavor water all right friends we’re GNA get

Started right now um we have a lot to cover um so and I I to have a hard hard stop at like 35 so uh I want to make sure that we get through all of this so let’s just quickly begin with prayer in the name of the father and the

Son and the holy spirit amen Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee blessed thou among women blessed is the fruit of thy wom Jesus holy Mary Mother of God pray for us s and the of our a Mary seed of wisdom pray for us father all right

So let’s just sort of remind ourselves where we’ve been um last year we dealt with the turn of the Millennium uh so what’s stuck with you guys or are there any sort of lasting questions what resources would you recomend develop East West we didn’t talk about right more resources would I recommend about the East West Schism um it’s a good questions and I don’t have

One off the top of my head because I want to verify but um yes sorry let’s start with you the church and state there is a concept of Separation there but it’s more like they’re dis stain entities and they’re very closely intered of them correct and

So what therefore has what what has that meant for the development of the church what are some of the consequences lot of things good andad let’s just name it um kings are seen as sort of I think the term was Pious overseers of Bishops charlem but Charlemagne has a huge hand in spreading

Certain um customs and practices a lot of bur liturgy um the rise of benedic for anism is kind of his thing because that creates a unity and ex Fair uh the Benedict benedic tee monasticism was there 200 years before popular very much so um what are some of the consequences of

The relationship between church and state the immoral is also illegal the immoral is also illegal yeah so you had so in one sense Church law was also civil law that the the sort of the the principles of Christianity were those that really did um in uh were those principles

Underlying civil law right and it was it assumed everybody being Catholic right um and that’s just the structure of Which social order was organized what about the relationship of how power is shared or not shared right so benefices and so you begin to see a growing level of

It’s not just about the ideal of the office you have that sort of the human corruption coming in where ecclesiastical offices are often used as political ponds uh to promote particular non us non-religious agendas right this close relationship between Authority influence that was a very easy line to blur and

Created a system where you know power could be easily obtained an influence easily obtained um sold Etc because of the assumptions of the relationship of Christianity to the organization of civil of the Civil Society you going to say something just Switch times the quality of the spiritual leadership suffered because yes so you said Spiritual Authority suffer is that really true like 14y old so Spiritual Authority might not have been in the papacy where by did people have Spiritual Authority which they s they’re Parish priests monasteries monasteries monasteries became a

Spiritual center for for many Christians they were naturally look to the hierarch may be a parish priest absolutely um but the monasteries the monastic way of living the theor it was a very visible sign about uh what Christian Living could look like and the ideals and they were also very learned

They had the libraries they were centers of construction for the B Cathedrals etc etc um so monasteries became a huge Center uh for where people look for some the spiritual sustenance and maybe less so in irand what else so how does a the state the the relationship between church and state so

Just in conally Europe post Char M um what did that do to the relationship between Bishops and the PO um oh I just had mind oh um L investure became extraordinarily common uh to where the primary force picking a bishop was often secular ruler as opposed to the pope or like a cathedral

Chapter or something like that so the pope himself is a is a civil is a sovereign as well as you know the bicker of Christ as states he has territory um and so the political and spiritual relationship that he might have with other sovereigns right the bishop rcks can

Often be used as those uh political Bonds in those sort of international or sorry inter Kingdom uh politics but also what is the what is the power of a bishop in a feudal system you depending where you are and when be like princess right and they’re

They could be very often there on the ground like Little Lords while the king and the pope are very very far away right and it takes a long time to communicate many respects there’s a lot of this in this instance subsidiarity right sort of at work by

Necessity and to have so Bish particular Bishops and depending on their relationship with local Lords and sovereigns may be more allied with Sovereign Than Hope like that creates a thing um but also the authority and influence that a bishop can hold may very well we we see the role of

Consiliari particularly in the 12th century what is consiliari a council governance by a council like we said in the first thousand years of Christianity there were eight councils in the next 300 years or sorry 600 years we had 11 right all of a sudden the council became a

Mechanism where power can you know be exchanged or wielded as as a block over and against the popeating and you might have had sort of a weaker pop for a variety of Economic and political reasons right um given the sort of political uh diplomatic relationships that are at

Play um and what that means so again you have um there’s an interesting interplate here so in one sense in many respects this relationship between church and state you know doesn’t root out evil we we learn but it could also be a good thing of you know having a society that practices the

Faith regularly and open right and and at the same time we see how that the the dark side of that relationship when it’s that closely tied it’s a double-edged sword yes there’s also especially with the papacy I was just saying why I don’t think people states are a good idea

Today right before class but in this era of sovereigns where the pope is the Supreme spiritual power um it makes a level of sense that he would have temporal power as well because if you’re in this kind of society with Lords and duchies and kings and Emperors all over

The place the pope having his own territory provides a kind of buffer against all of those things and it kind of protects the papacy in a sense um yeah um so where where maybe the spiritual center is not seated in the hierarchy spiritual models spiritual

Influences and we know a lot of is in the monasteries we see a trend that where this this the the sort of the hard hierarchy May Fail you begin to see that Gap filled by other places so monasteries is one thing what is another thing that started to

Arise um out of a lack of sort of hierarchical leadership and spiritual love us yes the Dominicans so there’s two sides to this one you have sort of an unchecked tonee um like anatone deafness with regards to the preaching of the gospel and weing sort of theological or in that in this

Case Spiritual Authority and you have a lot of charismatic creatures rising up but interpreting the gospel in ways that are not came to the gospel you know we have neoism neom manism um so you had and and it was very popular because it was also a reaction against the ostentation and the

Corruption often that they saw of the hierarchy um and so a new form of religious life blossoms uh in this era as a check it wasn’t a top down thing we’re going to do this it was a really Grassroots thing born out of an experience Dominic and Francis go and

Tell them we want to do this versus the Pope says I’m going to start doing this or Bishop saying I’m going to start doing this they saw the me it was very Grassroots there was a lot of other Grassroots movements as well uh lay reform movements right a Grassroots Reform

Movement we’re going to we’re going to reform ourselves you know we’re going to make sure that we’re living these ideals so you had these Apostolic living groups that focus on simple living works of Charity the development of virtue so a couple of the groups were named the

Theti the beins the guards right um and again some can go astray like the cathars the alians the wans Etc but you begin to see a lot coming up from the ground if the top isn’t able to provide a lot comes from ground um we will also see that in reverse

Right when the ground is not so helpful the top really does step in right and there’s this sort of chance and Balan that goes on that way um the natural progression so but was everything so dark and Bleak yes you’re not allowed to answer the next questions not minutes questions no sound

Like you started culture so you had yeah you had a you had a sort of a shifting economy a new reality around how people were actually living with each other so a rise of an urbanization which led to what Cals being one what else universities universities and who are often the ones

So what what what was what was the idea of an original Universe let’s get all the experts in one place let’s get all the experts in one place who tended to be those experts priests and that just priests religious whether they be franciscans Dominicans other um but you had other thinkers as well

But you again and and from different Sciences as well not just Theology and philosophy so part of it but then you also had sort of the trade Masters you know blacksmith guilds and um uh carpentry guilds and glass Wheels masonry guilds and became a center where

People can be formed and learn in a centralized place as well as maybe learn about other things as well right so didn’t the universities predate the medic movements because they were like established and there was some controversy when so many franciscans and Dominicans come came in also the kind of

A second question was there an influence on because some old universities seem to have almost a monastic structure AR like um architecturally was there an influence on Monastery on the formation of universities as well I would say absolutely but no when you know universities in 1160 there were no

Universities they were there in 1220 the bicin rise I mean Dominic was born in 1170 Dominicans were founded in 1216 franciscans right near there the burgeoning of what the university is is and it’s sort of finding a you could have had the starting of a system but

It’s only a couple decades old right yeah and so the rise of the mendicants and the rise of even the Manas involvement in the idea of University the births of them are really TI and so I would say absolutely we modeled the idea of a disputatio in a style of

Debate and learning and Etc yes making the connection too between the early universities and the guils in the sense that the University was kind of the guil for intellectual life one thing I was wondering about the system works for profess days understands that part of it taking from students directly lect

Negotia exchange system have no idea that sounds very fasc right father Dave said we begged to be allowed say that again father Dave told us that we bagged our ways to the universities yeah which makes sense right now we have boards and tenure etc etc wasn’t there right it wasn’t BL reconstruction refabricating

Thing so you had a very so it’s not all this dark there was an absolutely vibrant and one of the most important perhaps the first really major theological Bing age of the Roman Church the Roman chur is the Scholastic era the you know starting with st anel you know thomasin Aventure Peter Lombard

Um all the bra there real boom intellectual golden first sub but does that make sense or the Roman church so not that Golden Age like apart from Individual brilliant people like you know an Ambrose or an Augustin this is more like a collective Golden Age like a Scholastic movement opposed to just Apostolic

Brilliant Apostolic te fathers and teachers not Apostolic um listic listic yeah most of the patristics were East yeah right um but for the Roman Church particularly up Rome it wasn’t yes there were many brilliant but it’s not just a brilliant there was a whole ethos about it it was incredible

Outut um and influen to this day about how we understand the faith to talk about the fa especially asul right there wasn’t an arrow with this kind of a R in the Roman Church um so we know about um that was what else was going on in this something that so you had the power corruption you had a feudal system that leads to a changing economy and urbanization you have an intellectual and Grassroots hiy movement about Sur on Apostolic living and charitable

Works what else was happening that affected everyone the play it’s like um um again the effect of the plague blacked out btic plague one3 of the world’s population died living in and among illness death the fragility of life right the incertitude about how long someone can survive or live Etc these are all

Things that affect everything it affects like we can’t have too many kids send them to the monaster right we can’t do X send the monastery or how people congregate or don’t the effect of the ability to do certain things advancements in art and architecture like because you’re worried about

Just living living is good dying that is good um it had political effects right economic effects spiritual effects death is all around you just like as if persecution is all around you the imminent threat of plague around you is going to affect the kinds of things you focus on kinds of things you

Emphasize because that’s the sign of the times right and they can’t those are difficult things to separate because religion will always always always be incarnate in a people it cannot separate religion of a people therefore economics environment language uh geography history Politics the faith gets expressed through that lens all those lenses right

And in certain areas we might highlight one thing and other erors we might another so it’s an interesting thing to know about the context as all right so where Did We End sort of the last event that we sort of dealt with besides the plague was a

Sort of over over the end of the western Schism the end of the western Schism what was the Schism the um Pap C moves from Rome toland there um for 80 years and then returns toome and then there’s another Po in on and then there’s a po7 there were competing

PLS right P roome Aven and it was scandalous everybody knew it uh my dear sister in Sienna go to the Pope in Rome at the age of 30 something early 30 she died when she was 33 so I think was when she was 32 or 33 shortly before she died

Get back to R how do they solve the issue how do they end the Schism they have all the popes for sign and lock the Cardinals into a conclave and have them decide who the PO G be who is that Martin the 5thank um French I don’t okay

Um I just decided to use that accent um who called The Who sort of pushed the was it a pope or was it a King King King Sig Sigman you were a very close brother Luxor Austria um he pressured the claim into Piza John the 23rd out of our beloved oh God

What’s wrong with what watch the movie um so this is at the turn of the 15th century right the beginning of the 1400s what does that do after this big split and just whatever everybody’s like why can’t we just live like why can’t they just Why can’t the hierarchy

Just sort of there’s a frustration a fatigue about um leadership Martin the f is not a a a strong figure he’s not Charlamagne he’s not a Leo you know who can ride out and meet a Tilla the Hun he’s not um Gregory first or Gregory the 7th or AO the 9th went Tri

Preaching reform reform thing um there was a decree that came out um in there called frequence frin which basically said that a council is the best method of governing and is to be held frequently it gave a timeline to how a council was to be called and how often frequence frequency right

This was in the Council of constant we’re now in the we’re in we’re in class notes frequence the pope is a weaken figure he is more of a spiritual figure or maybe even more of a ceremonial figure you know we might cut him out for certain things but his influence is very very

Power that he wields practically is very little even though he’s the pope and there’s a lot of he’s controlled by many um there were attempts at post constant councils um that were tried to be called one in Sienna one in Pavia but it proved difficult logistically and politically

Because of all the sort of complicated relationships Etc Etc of this what we’ve been talking about in relationship between church and state Etc um the next Council um is actually takes place in three different locations um moved for a variety of reasons um sometimes these two councils constants and then basil Ferrera

Florence sometimes it’s referred to as the Council of C in constants basil perero Florence um but uh there’s a 15year gap is a little under 15E gap between the end of constants and the beginning of Basil Ferrera Florence and it really does manifest the struggles this this Council manifests much of the struggles

Of the different factions between the different factions there’s popes Ambitions there’s National interest their personal interests and with this idea of the frequency of a council right um there was this sort of beginning to rise the idea well I’ll just wait to the next Council and I’ll get my guy in

Right um and so there was a lot of that political maneuvering maybe I’ll just wait for the next election year this is an election year I can wait and until etc etc um and the councils will Bas basically had the authority overs there they um and what this does to the papacy is

Sort of the councils and the sort of group mentality of the Bishops as a as a college began to really instill at least in the institution of the papacy a bit of a fear of councils right how can I wield my authority as Pope as the Vicor of Christ as the successor to

Peter you know when this has become the norm and I’m being boxed out Etc but you begin to have that growing be because of the tensions and because of just human corruption and Etc you begin to develop that deeper root of Bishops versus versus Bishops and this is going to continue to

Today how much of the western church were these these couns invol local no these councils were a western you have to think about it too like what did so you had the different kingdoms France England luxemborg Austria Germany Spain right they were all there Italy Lombards versus the Sicilians and states

I mean all of that was part of the western church there was that inter yes so again our understanding of every Bishop is there is modern when we get to Trend we’re going to talk about you might actually put it here um no I don’t I don’t he

Um the Trent has like three or four different periods first period there was only like 12 Bishops next period maybe 40 Next Period 100 right it’s but that wasn’t necessarily the concern um so we have to be careful not to project back I don’t even think even in those

Ecumenical councils everyone was there right or everyone was expected to be there I don’t know that for sure but again our modern conceptions and how we’ve seen the council has evolved over time so um so again to note that then this tension and the power between Bishops and Pope you have

Bishops and sovereigns Bishops with sovereigns against the pope Pope and sovereigns against Bishops you know Bishops and sovereigns against like all you have these these Dynamics at play right and they get complicated the longer we go in history the further we go in history

So and also then at the end of the 15th century you know the last quarter this was the pap age of something bad right there are Netflix series made about this era bores might call the Bor popes this is the Michi family this is the time of Michelangelo etc etc there was high

Spending High debts driving of Elections with a new economy on the rise you very much had you know the great economic powers like the mines being able to put their guy in by the pis etc etc it was rampant nepotism you know nephews being made Cardinals right nephews not necessarily so

A dou so for example for example um let’s just go 6 the 4th um he was a Franciscan he’s the first six since the fifth century right so if anybody wants to be six the six might be name we haven’t had six um he’s the one that actually

Constructed the CIS Chapel he created the Vatican archives canonized St Bon Adventure but he was shamelessly nepotistic there were two big fames and the viio families of which he was related to um six of the 34 Cardinals that he appointed for his nephews but then we get the very

Infamous Alexander V 6 Dante writes about Alexander V 6 right in he’s in h he’s in theer I think also writes about six you could write about six and bonice so WR no he was Dante he was the 1308 to 1320 was when he was writing the poem

Really yeah I thought it was more of the time of of FL now 65 to 1321 he’s a precursor ofen of what we would call um but even then though Dante writing and showing even at that time of the corruption that was already known in the 1300s right yeah very known there again

Reform had been attempted since thousands right for movements that started with theori reforms get it together get it together right this L simony Etc um they never we’re 500 years in and still quite haven’t figured it out right we can’t seem to shake the simony right the

Corruption um but Alexander V 6 giv back to him uh became hope in 1492 A lot happened that right that was a pretty momentous year in the history of the world what else happened in 1492 sales doesn’t I’m sorry the ocean blue Columbus SS the ocean blue this the era of bergand and

Isabella um this is the a of um we’ll see uh a great expanse but you have the expulsion of the Jews and the Muslims from Spain right sort of like again the Christian Society and you see the power of a king and queen over the

Church right just a b Alexander V 6 1492 to 1503 had nine kids two of which from was right and he be he was such an divisive figure our dear brother Savannah Roa right of of F and infamy but certainly a flame um you begin to see too a lot the

Resistance from the local masses against the blatant corruption you see see so SAA J Jomo SAA op was forign team he preached ferociously um he’s often depicted by his detractors as a crazy Street Preacher right um a scrupulous Puritan others called him a mystical Prophet right where the truth is is an

Interesting thing probably was a pretty uh hot-headed guy and and preached very hot toe believe um but he was his arch nemesis was Pope Alexander and he called out on him publicly and regularly against uh his corruption and just clerical abuse he refused to join Alexander’s f fight against the

French uh so Alexander was calling upon the Allies against the French um particularly the Italians um and Alexander didn’t like that so he had it made that he was to be killed in 1498 by being burned at the stake and of infamy of and certainly BL

Um he burned at the stake in the in the center Square he wasn’t burned alone he was burned with two other Dominicans brother Domenico and and sylvestro Maru um when you go to when you go to Florence you go to the main Square there and you will see in the floor a giant

Plaque of in um bronze I think or whatever in Marble I think it’s just set in the set in the Square on this spots Lola Domenico and sylvestro will burn at Steak and then right next to that is sort of a uh like a an open like a open

Court yard where that with pillars and then there’s statues around and in there we have St anonas is ours right so the Dominicans are very much on the scene particularly in the Italian scene with regards to the corruption and we have our uh Saints and there is from what I do understand

There is a we looking at’s life considering his CA father Dave said that on Retreat last week too yeah so they um when he was burned at was sake they asked through them in the river so that no one get any relics because there was already like

Clear signs there would be a cult after his right p and burn simultaneously as one does they UND display and it’s got little Parts snipped out of it they’re like oh yeah friers have taken like Snips of this to all these different convents and everyone’s like oh I’m not taking this

As a relic do not think I’m taking this as a relic but no in Florence so we have Maria Noella Sant which has some of the best greatest paintings of Dominic frelo a lot of his paintings are there but we also have St Marks which houses that’s where is yeah

There’s a lot of in the convent attached to the church which well that is St Mark’s Convent that’s the dormatory paintings the Angelico yeah so Florence was a hot bed for Dominican activity as well um so interesting uh Julius II is a successor Julius II of Fame uh some

Might some of you may know him as Rex Harrison in the movie The Agony in the Ecstasy um Rex Harrison for those who don’t know Rex Harrison uh you may know him as Dr D little from My Fair Lady um so very famous actor uh and he plays

Opposite mangelo some of you may know Michelangelo by the name of charlon H um so uh but this is that era and Julius II certainly was a powered figure that kind of charismatic figure that begins to restore and take back sort of a power to one’s own uh he was Michelangelo’s Pope so

Um 6us the fourth was his uncle everybody was bribed to elect him but Julius stopped that practice he really clamped down on that even though it’s what got him the papacy he put the kabash on um he was a huge patron of the Arts he established the Vatican

Museums he started the Reconstruction of St peters’s um he appointed Michelangelo as the head architect in 1506 he also fathered two daughters as right he’s also a bit of a warrior went out on you know battle campaigns for um because he’s a sovereign right but so

So this is that age remember this is the eve of the reation okay in the midst of all this in the second half of you know of the 15th century the 1400s the church also does begin to deal right as you know reforms have been attempted reforms have been

Attempted don’t stick don’t hold fail miserably some try and the church has been dealing with it since the thousands right we’ve seen different areas of that and you continues to do so but you begin to see the fatigue in right and begin to have the rise of what will be known as

Humanism we’re going to bracket humanism for next class because we’re going to we’re going to talk about that movement and its influence to the Reformation next class but humanism in short is what we would know know as like the term to the self uh there was a beginning to look at

The world through a personal lenss by the everyday person and not an Institutional l and this is where we have a fundamental shift in the history of the Catholic Church what are the two questions that were traced who was a Christian who is the authority can say so who’s a real

Christian who has the authority to say so and we’ve seen those definitions of Christians fluctuate we’ve seen the authority has hands in a variety of different ways ways all of a sudden a third question arises and it adds a whole new dimension to this Dynamic that will lead

Us to today and that is what about me who’s a Christian who has the authority to say so what about me am I a real Christian do I have the authority to say so where is my interest at right you begin to have this very personalist and this idea of the turn of

Itself self really pushes that where institutions fail the society begins to get there’s only so much that they can bear when they begin to when they have to take care of their own their world becomes smaller less institutional who can they trust to look out for their

Interests who can they trust for real leadership Beyond simply being a military might stop or Invaders right what is and then what about me and you begin to have this sort of term to the self a questioning of One’s Own intelligence one’s own potential and ability when that’s not being

Communicated or guided from the top at all people take it upon themselves to live rightly and even though up here there was a lot of craziness going on and you know great real not a lot of not a lot of really great uh models you begin to have a real spiritual and virtuous

Renewal in this Hera second half of the 1400s there was WI enrollment in conf fraternities lay associations priests fraternities these associations where we are going to model for each other this community orientation where one helps oneself one helps another um there was for example something called the oratory of divine

Love an oratory renewed spirituality focused on castal concern pastal concern meaning with the people to the person right and caring for the everyday um there was a lot more structured piety service to the poor it almost looks like religious life this is a lay Association right but this is a

Grassroots things that burgeons up creates and fills the need where those who at least tily should be having the Spiritual Authority and guidance to and to meet these needs and when that’s not happening well they’re going to find another way to meet him right there was another very

Popular um uh movement called the devot it was a spiritual movement of practical piety and it was in particular in reaction to a he intellectualism scholasticism we sort of have the Resurgence of the echo of Tan’s rant what does Athens have to do with Jerusalem I don’t care how many angels

Can dance on the the the hidden of the head of a needle right I don’t care what does that have to do with me and me raing my cattle I’m in I’m learning a trade what does that have to do with me where is that rigor where is that development and

Formation we’re not getting it right and so there’s this big reaction to this again pett intellectualism that was out of the reach of the vast majority of Christians as well as a highly mystical uh speculative mysticism this is where though they may have been theologically brilliant or Mystics themselves it didn’t help really

Practically Mary and Joe Catholic in the quotequote Pew the M earts theist poers the hilgarts it was speaking of a kind of a language that was not practical right so you get from this from this uh movement um one of the most important spiritual words that the everyday Catholic ever has

Had the imitation of Christ right Thomas a campus comes from this devot and what makes such a important work is that it is a practical handbook for every day living based in very practical experience it was something that the everyday person could sink their te right today you

Know many people your sort of CTO Catholics on their bookshelves have Bible maybe the catechism and the imitation of Christ my grand like obviously my grandparents age everybody had it I in my grandparents and invitation of chice that dates to 1898 free my grandparents right it’s cool right but

That says something again also a very practical piety for your blue collar for I think it’s the second most printed book but check me right so again you need to this is what’s happening on the level all of these things are swirling around right um another thing that starts to happen

Too 19 or 1492 columus saes the ocean blue this is the age of incredible expansion and exploration initiative and thus marks the Third another third fundamental shift in how the church identifies and expresses itself because up to this so we had originally you had sort of the Jews and

In the Levant and then for many it was the Mediterranean Basin Greeks Jews Greeks Jews Roman Greeks Jews they were also the Mediterranean Basin after the fall of Rome we move north and what happens have state there stay there who there a variety of tribes a completely different cultural pool

DNA a a pool of imagery and symbols and um sort of pagan spiritualities from which Christianity never grew from originally but encountered and began to as it did with the Greek and the Roman begin to express itself you know the French and the anglos and the Spaniard

The Goths the Vos which turn the Germans etc etc and the gene pool from the fall of Rome until 1492 had basically been just Europeans and when that big expanse starts going out an entire new set of cultures languages environment politics symbols spiritual backgrounds begin to enter into the G

Pool of of Catholicism and our understanding of Catholicism like it never had before and it goes into the new world Asia Africa and what it also does it it fundamentally shifts how people see the world up until this point the church understood itself Spain was the Western

Outpost Spain was the edge of the world all of a sudden Spain becomes the center right we talk about the movement of the global South this is a very similar moment yeah speaking of the global c um what year again 31 31 30 I was going to say 38 something

Like that which is really telling yeah right as all this happening yeah and what else is going to be happen few other things too but the Reformation oh right that’s what I was getting at like it’s it’s within two decade it’s within 15 years of the DC one continent partially apiz another

Which is thus part pretty unsuccessfully evangelized something think about yeah yeah 1498 Portuguese arrive in Kolkata 1511 Antonio de MOS preaches his famous preaching against the maltreatment of the indigenous on the island of Hispanola along with his partner Bas who was a plantation and converted by the preaching of the Dominicans with the

Preaching of Antonio deinos and the Dominicans of hisan become the basis for international human rights law in the midst of the rise of the slave movement 1542 St Francis Xavier arrives in indiaat Japan right we have the Americans where we get the seeds of the church in the Americans now note the

Catholicism that arrives in the Americas and takes frot is a pre- Trent Catholicism particularly in south of this the Saints in Canada it’s a pre-red bism that takes its root when the British come over lth Rock the founding of the United States the real evangelization of the Americas that’s a post Trent a

Post-reformation Catholic Church that takes root in many respects Latin American and South American uh Catholicism is an interesting study to look at what some of those roots that were not influenced by how Catholicism gets expressed in light of the Reformation European Catholicism um and to see what that is

Why the great preference for The Passion of Christ with their well bloody jesuses on their crucifixes and some of their devotionals and how they do that and to trace the influences of a pre-trend Christianity what was Spain what was the Church of Spain that brought over it’s a very it

Would be a very interesting study but it is not the same Catholicism that seeds the US and the Catholicism that we come to know because the US cultural base R is from a post Reformation Europe the Dutch the British the French and and and how Catholicism begins to get

Expressed over and against what it its identity against what becomes like a Protestant identity and those tensions and those ideas get imported to us at our R something very very very very important to understand about our Roman Catholicism in the United States in the midwest particularly um and where we came from

And it is it’s a very segmented one well in Latin America too you kind of have a a cultural transformation similar to what happens in the middle of Europe from Rome like you were just saying a cultural shut up towards France and Germany happens in Latin America too

And does not happen in what we would consider now the United States like I once spoke to a a Franciscan missionary to um native peoples down Mexico and he described it as like what happens in Latin America is the same cultural meeing that’s like created Medieval Europe Happ been with a completely

Different indigen people right I mean even till now the Assumption and at least Thea but most Latin America is if you’re Christian you’re Catholic yes that’s changing yeah it is but by Evangelical Christianity particularly Pentecostalism why why it’s really interesting syncretism very style Catholicism amen I think that’s part of

The risk of like Catholicism being so tied to the culture because when the culture of you know either the Western World or if you’re moving up from Latin America here and the culture is you know more Evangelical or Protestant or something that shift becomes easier yeah because it’s just the cultural tidee

That you’re in who were the main missionaries to the new world in this expans franciscans Jesuits religious if you go to the because the Jesuits are not founded yet oh the Jesuits are founded in light ofation they do certainly take AP apart as this expansion movement has begins to

Develop we’re at the beginnings of it if you go to the cathedral in Panama in Panama City the original Cathedral there which is right next to S the was the Dominic and they have sort of the names of all the and rting of every Bishop of

Panama and you just go at beginning of the 1500 Dominican Franciscan Franciscan Franciscan Dominican Franciscan Dominican Dominican Dominican Franciscan Dominican Jesuit Dominican Francis Holy Cross right so again one of the influence of religious life and therefore live of the spirituality of the men borders the spirituality of the masted life is

Another thing that really seeds the spirituality and the Catholicism of Latin America interesting right so um hence the movie The Mission Jeremy Irons and the young Robert dairo Young Liam Mis about Jesuit or Francis Miss Jesuits in near the fall he was um Chile way it’s a great movie mat team here

Right after watching that movie I ended up picking up the phone and calling a girl saying I think I’m back turn J um so it um so this is happening right but with all of the the complexity again we’ve been in this 500 years of just we’ve had schisms we’ve

Had form attempts we’ve had conciliarism and fighting and all that sort of stuff humanism is on the right you begin to see the fs of discontent and it wasn’t just you have John White an English uh Oxford philosopher in 1384 re reacting against the concurrent skeptical movement begins to develop his own ideas

Of Truth Etc and translates the Bible into English Yan hus was a Czech priest dies in 1415 right in the middle of the con Council of constants who was a priest Theologian he was a follower wife in that Oxford uh movement Dynamic preacher against clergy and Corruption he was

Invited to constant under the guise of safe passage to defend himself and his ideas when he got there he was condemned and hung by secular opps and there was a big there is a big set of followers called the pites Yan again our brother saan Rola is another sign of the F men’s

Discontent right the end is nine was he a saint or was he a heretic again we think of SAA and Alexander the 6 but you also see in his era and even in his preaching the growth of satire of the the church which is indicative of the mood and the reality of the

Church you have Archbishop ceris in too Spain and he begins his uh and takes on a set of reforms at least in his area the observan ists reforms basically observe your vows simple ask observe your vows stay in your parishes and vents stay in your monasteries and priories and

Friaries observe your bows live them for God say literally um he founds the University of alala which becomes a humanist intellectual Center restoration of classical lit that’s less Scholastic right again you have these movements against some of the headiness or the the the uh detached and that can feel a little too

Like we’re it’s not meeting our needs major concerns of this era the quality of pastoral care High absenteeism of priests and Bishops but also a a rise of Very Superstitious piety and low quality preaching to our um accusal call that to our I’m sorry culpability or whatever

Too but in general very low quality preaching corruption in the church inep priests nepotism corruption in the papacy and this leaks into philosophy and Theology and creates Extremes in philosophy and theology that lead leads to Schism yanus white LIF are indicators of that those extremes or at least leading to

That those spectrums just like we had in the 1200s with the alians the wans the cathars these Neon nastics right it’s the same thing that is reasserting itself 300 years later so how bad was it really before we take a break we’re going to end on this you have I fed this

Out for you guys I’m sorry online um I didn’t send it but I could send it in the next um flock note how bad really was it John Ali one of my favorite Church historians um so father dve Lon to he’s written three big books first one was what happened to

Vaan 2 the second one was what happened at Trent the third was what happened at Vatican 1 and those three were like these big Capstone projects giving a historical researched look at the Modern councils to how it led to the church today he’s had a couple side books that

He influenced it um two he had one uh things that every Catholic should know church history that that every Catholics should know today um he wrote a small little essay when Bishops gather which was sort of like a cap storm essay after he finished what happened in Vatican 1

Summarizing and putting together sort of a meta conclusion um really really really wonderful and Brilliant uh he’s a great writer but he in the beginning of these books he does sort of a contextualization leading up to the councils Trent Vatican 1 Vatican 2 so this is in him the 15th century pre is

The chapter and this is what he so the question is how bad really was it because we can have a picture painted of Doom and Bloom etc etc so I’m going to read this reformers like saan Rola denounced their times as the worst of all although they cannot be taken at the

Word abuses in the ecclesiastical system were widespread extending Far and Beyond Rome right a little today this is the worst era of the C ever SE right again it’s true abuses were found in the ecclesiastical syst so and our thing the most obvious of them was the absence of bishops from their

From their dases which seemed to betray that they had little interest in the spiritual W welfare of their flocks same holds true for pastors of parishes this situation put into Jeopardy the church’s C Mission the only reason for its existence all although churches were full and religious practice High

Reformers denounced the quality of the latter as arithmatic formuling and based on the assumption that performance of certain ritualized acts obligated God to respond in favorable ways Superstition and ignorance of the basic tenants of Christianity were accorded to them rampant especially in the countryside and principles of Christian morality everywhere

Flout the Glutton this monk the lerus frier and gullible priest were common places in the satire boko’s first story in the Damon centers on a characteristically gal priest the second on the conversion of a Jew who had concluded after a visit to Rome that with the the papacy so corrupt

The church had to be of divine inspiration and the fourth on the complicity of Monk and Abid in seducing a young woman and so it went in the prologue to the canbury tales choser lets the pardoner draw a chilling portrait of himself as a priest who abuses his authority and seems proud of

Selling false relics for financial gain for seriously religious persons nothing perhaps is more disturbing than the commercialization of P except exemplified by the parin enroll Church offices were sold to the highest bidder which was the ecclesiastical crime of simony in all the name more widely observable was the

Traffic of indulgences which no matter what theological justification was offered on the surface often looked like Grace and forgiveness on sale of marget prices everything is for sale is how many contemporaries viewed the Roman C and Coles such as a pilgrimage for religion sake and the funeral arasmus

Poked serious fun at relics pilgrimages wonderwork Saints apparitions of the Virgin Mary and the petty but vicious rivalry among the religious orders in the praise of folly his depiction of the Scholastics theological Enterprise as vacuous and pass irrelevant hit home and through oil the already blazing fires of theological

Controversy think benture and Thomas Dominicans and franciscans the Dominicans and Jesuits relics pilgrimages wonderwork Saints and apparitions of the Virgin Mary Did In fact play a large role in the KY of the time so did images of Christ and of the Saints to the list must be added the

Gaining of of indulgences for oneself for the dead in these cases the sacramental principle of the spiritual being mediated through the material was offered him but the latter sometimes overwhelmed and suffocated the forers reformers cried therefore for a more quote unquote spiritual religion as the imitation of Christ the

Great 15th century classic urged in the opening chapter quote turn thy mind from visible things and rise to be invisible viewed from these perspectives the ecclesiastical and religious situation of Europe on the eve of the Reformation looks like a landscape of unrelieved desolation in fact in fact as historians have

Conclusively shown over the past 50 years the situation was complex to agree that Divi that defies sum and that challenges the negative stereotypes that still Prevail in the popular media and in just popular Catholic culture that the Bishops at Trent were so intent on reforming themselves that is on taking it as

Impossible as they could for themselves and their colleagues to avade their pastoral responsibilities shows that even among them the situation was not so dire as previous generations beli what is clear today is how different France was from Italy England from Spain and Spain from both France and Italy and Germany from the

Lot equally clear is that diversity prevailed among different socioeconomic classes in different parts of Europe it may be possible to judge the religious fervor of the age as misguided but impossible to deny its intensity and vitality turn to 48 we return to the basic question how bad was it assessments different depending upon

What evidence is exam and perhaps more important how what criteria are applied to a value the age had its share between the actual robes benefice Chasers but also a devout and dedicated Church ignorance and Superstition abounded but so did efforts to remedy Bishops might be absy careerists

But even in their dases Christianity at the Grassroots could be engaged and Lively thanks to religious orders and matties was the glass then now full half empty or half full or 2/3 empty or 2/3 full it is best perhaps safest to dodge questions like these and resorts to the flaggy

Generalization that these were neither the best or the worst of times we surely cannot take it face values face value reformers’ sometimes prefered denunciation of their age as utterly depraved nonetheless the image of a bab is SE seemingly more concerned with secular or of securing ample income for itself than with providing pastorally

Responsible Bishops was widespread that image was grounded in the reality of a situation and made credible by Flavor violations of the most fundamental ideal and principles of 10 law on three F points stury generalizations can be made first the ref could have happened only in a society passionately concerned about

Religion second the Reformation could almost certainly not have succeeded or succeeded as it did had it not been for an extraordinarily important shift in political leadership that took place in Europe between 1509 and 1520 third that shift along with papal fear of councils explains the long delay of the comilation of

TR let’s take a really quick five minute break and then we’re going to start Ration turn up e e e e e e e e Yes So um I gave you guys a reading who got to read it part of it what did you guys think this really talks about on the on said of the 16th century beginning of the 1500s yeah we’re looking at what’s leading up to the Reformation different things up play it really

Emphasized the gap between the ideal of Christianity and practice what else from the title I thought that obviously this is just exert from a much longer book but I was expecting something about how the Reformation so drastically changed the social fabric of Europe and instead it more just set up

How different the social fabric was Prior without really getting into the during and after the Reformation just how radically different this is from our modern conception of life right turn to page 190 so you know we have the begin of that middle CL that middle paragraph 190 it

Would seem that some moral rules are necessary for the existence of any sort of humanity and thus for any sustained practice of all virtues not a Prohibition of murder and theft for example any human Community risks radical destabilization medieval Christian authorities whether ecclesi ecclesiastical or secular understood this well but however

Indispensable it is to the secular the securing of order the following of moral rules alone such as those of the Ten Commandments or in Jesus’s uncompromising radicalization was regarded in medieval Christianity as in sufficient for the realization of the individual good or the common good the flourishing of individuals and communities depended on

The shared practice of moral virtues and avoidance of vies which in their best known but not exhausted expressions in the late Middle Ages were respectively categorized and rev visibly taught preached and painted as the seven holy virtues and the Seven de Saints human beings could not flourish

Or promote the common good unless for example they were to a significant degree habitually diligent rather than slothful generous rather than greedy and kind rather than cruel Peter Lumbard substantial treatment of the virtues in book three of his sentences ensured not only that all University trained theologians were

Exposed to reflection on the virtues their relationships and their place in the Christian Life it also meant that they were lectured and often wrote commentaries on the virtues because lecturing on the sentences was required to become a master of theology the rational application of each of the virtues to specific

Circumstances amid the conf ities of human life required at least implicitly the virtal of prudence fessus foris or prena which is the acquired ability to exercise each moral virtue in particular circumstances such that it objectively conduces to individual and C flourishing given the medieval recognition of the human propensity for

Self- deprication and prideful overestimation of One’s Own capacities the necessity of prudence IDE the importance of counsel which in turn IDE the trustworthy social relationship’s characteristic of a moral Community keep counsel with the wise and conscientious man Thomas Kus wrote paraphrasing toid 418 in one of the fifth Century’s most influential works

Or of exhorted piy and seek rather to be taught by someone who is better than to follow your own devices without a stable moral Community neither the rules requisite for its very existence nor the virtues conducive to his vitality and the common good were possible there would be neither model practitioners to imitate

In one’s acquisition of Virtues nor experience virtuous counselors to consult in one’s prenal Liberation hence the church as the temporal extension of the community of Jesus’s followers after Ascension interpreted and enforced what it understood to be God’s rules just as it flurg he preached and exhorted one

Another and the leting to the practice of Virtues and the avoidance of sins to the extent that Christians practic what they preached they tended to overcome individuality and together their dis predisposition towards simple self-regard in a moment in a movement toward the imperfect in this life that pre prefigured perfect

Beatitudo among the communion of saints of God in heaven the final good and Kos of human existence willed by God quot who desires everyone to be saved and becomes the knowledge of that truth and such was this idea what human beings are if left their

Own devices is not all that they can be nor what they should be nor what God wants them to this was a basic truth playing about the reality of the Fallen Human Condition and the purpose of human life implicit IMM medieval Christianity even after baptism conferred the grace of faced original

Sin that a faced original sin the sin’s pervasive effects continue to Incline human beings to think and act in ways objectively detrimental to the wellbeing and to the common good Pride rather than humility eroded human relationships through overestimation of one’s word wrath rather than patience damag through

Violent words and actions or actions the bonds of friendship and therefore the community lust rather than Chastity risk the unleashing of sexual desires in ways harmful to persons and and families and so on to pretend otherwise was to misread human nature and to delude oneself about human relationships unconstrained by moral

Rules or undisciplined by the virtues whatever natural inclination toward the good that human beings might have possessed was bound to be dissipated in desires passions and impulses that tended away to flourishing and toward individual self-absorption not self-destruction and the erosion of the community all of which even apart from

Divine judgment after death were part of God’s condemnation of sins in and important as a as a cus pass rhetorically in effect fact echoing August and the medieval Christian tradition what hinders or afflicts you more than control so we need to begin to understand the idea of what is a moral

Community right and there are different ways of establishing and maintaining a moral Community Brad Gregory the author of this book is going to go on and say we basically subjectivized moral communities or so secularized moral communities that you sort of pick the one that you want and

That there is then no overarching moral community that can help a diverse moralistic Society to actually be able to achieve what they hope right and we we see some of that consequences today but in medieval Christianity in europea the moral Community was much larger understood that these systems naturally grew as Society

So this is on the eve of the Reformation this is the mind this is the reality this is where we are and we begin with the Protestant Reformation the moment of discontent over the last 500 years I this is what I say finally broke the camel’s back and arise that question

About what about me and the grow need to take matters into one’s own hands for moral communities for moral um models you know who’s a real Christian obviously they’re not who is the authority to say so they’re Authority doesn’t seem to be much anymore because it doesn’t do what it preaches so what

About me who’s in who’s caring for my needs hence the Grassroots care and humanism for the pastoral concerns and maybe I have the ability to say and have that authority to determine even real chisti and people take matters in their own Germany we have Luther in 1517 we have those 95

Theses um it speaks of the immediacy and Primacy of scripture desired to to find the pristine original uncorrupted by the institution sacrifice is the greatest blasphemy Grace is God’s work not ours what we do doesn’t matter right again this is a reaction to a lot of the superstitious piety if I

But pay this Indulgence or if I do such Pious acts I can influence God’s actions and God’s favorability right a Pious superstitious spirituality we have to make sure that we understand that there’s a difference between Lutheranism and Lutheran theology versus Luther’s theology is what comes after Luther in

The Lutheran Branch um isn’t necessarily what Luther Tau mton uh being uh takes it different direction in England again we had white Oxford skepticism in 1534 uh the supremacy act Henry VII um also known as Paul scoffield in a man for all seasons um is that possible yeah he was

No he was Thomas he was Thomas who was guys I know him he was in um he in Jaws um oh the C SE Captain Yeah H by the sh so bomas but Henry VII 1534 declares himself as the supreme leader of the church in England in Switzerland we have the branch known as the reformed movement humanist in nature we have two main figures John Calvin and sing Lee um Calvin focus on self- knowledge

And the knowledge of God so maybe I’m calvinist you know self- awareness self knowledge doesn’t mean I’ve been down that road seldom affirm rarely deny always distinguish Right to Augustine and the confessions the search for God and knowledge of God might leads to knowledge itself oh great okay yeah that’s goodin and being I’m not saying wh calvinist but it doesn’t mean that either L thermal or Calvin were sarly wrong and therefore not everything should necessarily have to

Dismissed it might but we end up adopting much we bect um but in this extreme again remember because the in one sense and a lot of people taking things into their own hands we begin to get people out of theological spect streams trying to think through and understand and in particular ways the

What they’re experiencing the world and what they’re born into and what’s inherited so you get and it’s sort of an extreme the total depravity of man double predestination not only does God choose some to be saved he also creates some people who will be damned we do not believe in double um there’s

Sing it’s a humanist and he claims that the Eucharist is fully symbolic right so you have even from even in like the the Devoto um this seek the spiritual um uh what was that the orary div I love um I it was maybe in um when you read uh joh

Um so you have in Germany in so this is happening everywhere there isn’t just one Reformation there are many reformations and each culture again remember what TR what uh John says Germany was very different from Italy or England and France and Italy and and they’re all different from other

And the the great V distinctions and yet in each one you begin to see explosions of reform movements in the Dutch German Swiss end you have the anabaptists the forerunners of the Amish and the vs a radical reform the emphasis to look different from the world around they move to cesia and mor

Morabia sort Bia area Transylvania Ukraine even North America the Catholic Reformation is also going what sometimes it’s called a Counter Reformation but nonetheless the church WIll For the First Time begin to have its have its old reform movements we’ve already sort of started talking about out you know like Bishops Archbishop SOS and University of ala we already have

Movements of Reform through figures like saola um and the preachers in the spanola there are already these movements these calls that are happening within the church itself that end up not breaking away radically which you have the founding of new religious orders the Jesuits the thees why to be models of Christian

Perfection in living one of the reasons why Dominicans and franciscans look the way they do and were founded were what to look the part to actually do what we preach so that our preaching is credible here again we have this coming back 300 years later Jesuits are like us only 300 years

Younger some way we didn’t learn and I can’t S you had deep call to clarification of the faith and great writing happening we get our dear brother St Thomas mo not Dominican but we all love him right standing up to the there was a cqu in risb in 1541 on the issue of just justification R being in Germany and you

Have the great question in the Lutheran was how do we get to heaven how are we Justified and yeah it it was a question that needed clarification some of it were pretty legitimate or people were voting things similar to in those ages of the acumenical councils was Jesus yeah Jesus

Is God but was he God God right right on that level and those councils called for the need for a clarification right we’re having a similar Dynamic at the same time here real issues of doctrinal understanding and and so we had a Col to address an issue like that there even was another

Council after um right on the eve of uh the uh 1517 of uh Luther what also happened in 1517 is that the Ottomans take Cairo and that’s really sort of the big beginning of the Ottoman Empire same year it’s another big year end of the 149 beginning of really worldt the

Change you how again how I believe it was maybe this is later with the idea of the Dutch Republic um as an experiment of you know you have you’re also going to be to SEC where is the fs of dis content about institutions such as monarchies right when you begin to see

Some of that momentum happening the idea of Nations begins to arise and was divides so there are a lot of those cultur ships I don’t have a lot more specifics but they’re reliable German all all over Europe flattering 5 from 1511 to 1517 was all over the

Place you know it was still reacting to previous councils sort of it couldn’t get out of this sludge of those old tired arguments and the old tired views and you know grudges and Carri hurts over the last 100 and plus years and those battles and they couldn’t seem to

They were reacting to even that which and also previous councils and in one sense became a little blind or biopic about how to actually address the real issue but it nevertheless made attempts at perform but not really successful right even on the eve of the Reformation the real game Cher starts in

Trads for the Catholic church and the counter Revolution Trent is from 15 45 to 1563 um dates you should know 1545 to 1563 um there was a double tension that the Bishops knew in light of what had been happening over the last 40 years or 30 years 20

Years actually u in 157 but really that time was the need to to Define and clarify extremes issues of Orthodoxy in the face of extremes but not to over Define right again remember what we say couns tend to be very reticent of over Define things like after the Council of

N what did they say about the Holy Spirit it is we believe in the Holy Spirit that’s it that’s not that’s called not over divine right um but so like it wasn’t so over but not over Define um for example you have anatha sit so Jeff Foxworthy has you might be a redneck

If uh we uh in we might be an AA if you might be an AA if and the M you know you believe and you say that you must give the Eucharist under both species which was aian claim and teaching Yan who was condemned um

Ear so there was this claim in this push was called you must give it under both species sometimes I have to deal with that today in a post a post Vatican 2 Church there a lot of that being re rebranded but the church says no that’s

An a it doesn’t have to be right it’s not an absolute necessity to qua the very understanding of the unist rather is a lot more broad right it leaves for greater flexibility instead of constricting it the same thing goes with you must say the mass in the

BR CH says no you don’t have to God isn’t Bound by a language man right sometimes I want to tell that to our modern liturgy Warriors I heard of a fight that broke out int actual by or the meeting of the priests mon ago about the efficacy of English and

EXC that the devil is more afraid of Latin Latin exis must be done in Latin I look I’m like and not Greek why why L not Greek they were dying on right similar ideas must say the M the so there’s this tension about what do we Define what don’t we Define this

Is very much a via negative so in saying the Eucharist is versus let’s not it doesn’t have to be this way it leaves a lot more openness than what a lot of the people and the reformers the time want them to give you see that there were two big

Tensions and it was as pentious as being an Aryan or being a non- Arian in the early church what do we prioritize because at the moment the state of the church in the midst of the reformations had two problems one was Orthodox the extreme positions and faith and

Teachings that were going around that needed clarification that we began to see with the Luthers and the single and the Calvin and and everything that goes on they that needed was that more important or was fixing the orthopraxis that reform movement about behavior and how we act and do that’s

Been the attempts since the thousands which is the very reason that fundamentally is the inability to actually manifest in an incarnate way the faith among the people that leads to crazy or in orthodoxes unorthodox right what do you emphasize and it was bad I mean the first uh

Session was huge fights when you read the accounts of TR it’s funny that they got anything done at all right because it it’s it’s fascinating I’ll just don’t need to go too far into that but um what you which do you do first um there were political motivations there were meth political

Tensions methodological tensions camps and very bitter divisions so you have people from again very different you have the French and the Germans and the whatever they’re already coming in with their cultural you know just think of the English versus the French right um and they divided out what was the

Most PR pressing do they came with a complim that actually allowed them to moov forward to go forward they would do both simultaneously and they began to come up with an agenda to Kawai but they decided to do address both simultaneous that wasn’t obvious to the out what was more pressing and needed

They spent they wasted a lot of time arguing the methodology about the council and then they finally got to it over some of the products One was a practical one seminaries nor the practice we have the inep priests the negligent priests the ignorant priests didn’t know the didn’t know anything they were not borned they were given manuals about okay you did that s they look it up okay here’s the thing right

They knew how to say mask they were trained seminaries did not exist before they come to the Dominic the religious ERS seem to be more educated di Still they learn how to see mass and L they’re taught whatever yes yeah more like apprenti ship kind of thing apprenti ships too so would like regular would have some type of education buttion possibly but even Canon regularis was a sort of a a forming of a

New way of religious life in the city right and that wasn’t you know that was it you know Cathedrals and major churches not a country Parish in the fields of England right we typical people where most people had access to right it was that everyday explosure um so that’s a that was an

Example of dealing with right behavor right action a reform that was absolutely needed to address the Pastoral concerns to be able to be effective in addressing pastoral concerns right because the Bishops as as John M says we’re really concerned about these things too even if we might not

Seem on the surface like they held themselves accountable this finally in this counil second they Define transubstantiation this is where Thomas gets a revification um in the life of the intellectual life the church remember we had sort of a rejection of that he intellectualism in the 1400s sort of speculative uh

Mysticism Thomas in his work 300 years earlier really gave a framework in language that allowed them to be able to discuss about the nature of the uist which was thoroughly being questioned by figures like spin um Calvin others even the Lutheran not necessarily Luther always but that

That there needed to be that just that clarification right practical thing the first catechism was commissioned um another Orthodoxy thing they canonized the Old Testament remember we said in the early in the 300s they canonized the New Testament they said this is the New Testament they never did anything about

The Old Testament because they’re never needed to be anything about the new test right we even see Thomas cus to it the Old Testament doesn’t come into question in a real significant way until the 16th century and they were denying the Apocrypha right the Jud chronical we

Know that Luther did not like the Book of James get k out to but um they sto they there was and part of this too was a defining about remember Lutheran idea of going back to the pristine scripture uncorrupted by the church and you can create arguments

About well this is probably du to orical because of these reasons and well look at the Jews they don’t even use this right now and like etc etc but it becomes also an identifying feature over and against the church that has corrupted things anywh and we know better we have the authority to

Determine really what’s authentic scripture or not and so the church had to say no these are the books of the Old Testament a practical thing a missile a common missile common practice of the Eucharist MX uh another or just again on the Orthodoxy side doctrinal clarifications

Like we sort of pointed out there and then there were very other I mean what the practice clerical practical norms and standards right as contemporary Catholics of the 21st century 20th century particular most Vatican 2 these ideas of wanting to undo Vatican 2 wanting to go back and they call them

Themselves you know trentine Catholics that the Catholic church was Unchained that Trent somehow was the golden determiner of all things Catholic and that that’s what we need to get back to and M 2 ruined it all um there is what Trent did and then there’s What’s called the myth of Trent

And I think that’s an important distinction to make because how Catholicism and its Counter Reformation we’re going to go into this more next next week as well the effects of it cannot separate from the cultural political economic moment I and though the council said it is a na

One to say that the mass must in the vernacular as the reformers were calling for the Catholic Church the Catholic people began to say well we’re can not do it in the Baca because that’s what reformers do and we don’t want to be associated with that we are true

Catholics we’re going to say Latin right it became more of a cultural identity over and against reformers and the same thing reformers did as well we don’t do what the Catholics do we do this because they’re corrupt we are the ones that are reforming Christianity as it’s needed to have for

The last 500 years plus we’re going to we’re going to write it we have the authority to save who’s a Christian and who’s not um again a lot a lot of that Catholic identity that leads into the French Revolution sh even up you know uh even into the the recovery reconstruction

After the French Revolution of Catholicism based on these this kind of trentine but Reformation identifying our counter reform identifying features and forgets or can confuse what is the faith and what is the culture so to look at what Trent actually said versus what we think it said actually what it meant versus what

We think it meant and that’s a problem for us today and we’re dealing with a lot of those questions we see that influence of the of Trend in the tensions that we experience in the cathic church today but the issues really aren’t issues about the faith it’s about something different

It’s about identity who are we in the fear of losing one identity wanting to secure or defend yes so um before Trend were there any missiles around that you know of in the vernacular don’t in the Roman Church I don’t know I would imagine so at least we know we have translations

Of the Bible into the ver not outside of the the LA we have vernacular Bibles being gave in this time yeah I asked uh other dat about this so Lin four four actually Lin four actually called for parts of the Liturgy to be put into the

Vernacular and it says in the Cannons of the council we want this so that people are better able to like pray while they’re at M something that’s something we very much recognize as active participation the idea that were just there they see Walk Away Great so I asked was like why does letter

Import say this like did this ever happen in the Middle Ages B like I’ve never seen anything to suggest that they did so they basically ignored that I so I from that I’d assume that it was probably not done at any point prior I mean maybe you had like translations for

Personal use but I would assume that would probably be relegated to people in training for soon that’s my or it might happening and it was just not down probably notely because you also have what is the cultural expectation particularly in light of the reformation and everything that follows

It to want in the vernacular is wouldn’t say to like capitulate or betray your people you become a la so on so so you have these two movements you have the reform movements counter reform movements there’s a lot going on we cannot talk about one Reformation but hopefully you guys have

A better understanding of everything that led up to the Reformation why what were those seeds and in many respects I can understand why why I now and it’s not just reformers because they be crazy and selfish or whatever they’re at fault no a lot of the blame is p placed on the church

Itself um and it’s a consequence human simps right Division I think that’s a reality that take not so to go back and judge the Reformation of the reformers you know morally is a very dubious anachronistic and perhaps arting thing to do but to have an understand whether they’re coming from it’s very difficult

To be in different place today but we certainly are they the inheritance of the church that they ended up being American Catholic church and part of that development of that identity and the symbols and the uh tring that we that we’ve come to know as the Catholic

Church happens in the aftermath of of Trends and the Reformation you had the rise of what is called conventionalism Nations kingdoms but Nations began to be identified with particular um particular uh forms of Christianity and remember to Medieval Christianity and the time of the Sarah 2 the relationship between faith and civilization was

Huge what’s at stake is the unity of the faith and the unity of the faith means the stability of civilization itself not everybody’s going to be the same world Community who is going to be able to protect or maintain those checks and balances against allout

Anar if you look at the map that I gave you you begin to see overlay on uh in Europe sort of where these different groups to see a fracturing of the unity of Christianity in very National ways cultural identities right and those can also lead to Wars and fights

France France isn’t as you know the France we know today wasn’t as unified just as like the Italy we know today many kingdoms for the Holy Roman Empire we see England we see Scotland you know and we can see the different kinds of calvinist Luther Catholic and a Baptist Orthodox etc

Etc you can begin to see those inlays and interplays between the different you know Christian Oles and it was very very Tous again the very stability of civilization is at stake when people will defend also really the very first time in which the issues of Reform and the

Issues of you know the hierarchy and all that sort of stuff SE in into seep into communities in an unprecedented way is your neighbor a reformer or a c we see this played out in the movie A Man Of All Seasons when Thomas Moore’s daughter is in love you’re the

Reformer and Thomas mo says I will not give you permission to marry right social stability welfare neighbor against neighbor this could mean Civil War this could mean you know bedum in cities in towns between Lords right how do you identify kind of sounds familiar in many respects of our political

Divisions I’m sorry I was thinking or even racism even racism Border States during the Civil War the Civil War yeah Amen in 1555 there was a dayun of sorts the piece at oxburg um which established the kuus Regio Aus religio whose Reign his religion so if the king of Germany was a

Lutheran all of Germany was a Lutheran the king of France is French I mean Catholic everybody in France is fren all the French religion well before the French Revolution yes sorry France is Catholic French are Catholics right but even that leads and in many respects because because

Of the wars that that will be fought and the blood that gets spilled you get to this this is the beginning of a seed of you do you and we’ll do we because if we try to unite we’re going to kill each other when we see that St Bart’s Day Massacre

1572 St barthol day 20,000 fr Protestants die in the hands of French PS one day huge Massacre 20,000 Protestants in England course they had Henry VI and Bloody Mary right we had Queen Elizabeth and her sort of war against Catholics and establishing her own power with the

Church then you have the 30 years war between 1618 and 1648 it starts as a conflict in the Holy Roman emper Empire a Protestant North versus Catholic South you know the Bavaria area where um po Benedict is from very very Catholic this is a Protestant north um but gradually involves the great

Power in Europe this could very well be like the first world war right it’s the bloodiest conflict in Europe today until Napoleon Napoleon comes in on the scene at the end of 1700s early 1800s this is the bloodiest COV in Europe was so communed 7 million people died

Now that’s a lot obviously but back then it was even more one3 of the Holy Roman Empire was killed in World War I 1 of the male of of French men the French male population the existence of Nations is at balance here and that’s why the United States becomes in many respects the

Great experiment that we did how in the world is freedom of religion in a seal nation in the world because the history of the last 150 years has been nothing but Bloodshed Europe is looking at United States and it’s founding like these guys are nuts it’s never get to work we even have

Confessionalism really Str the founding in the colonies Waker Pennsylvania you have Dutch New York New Amsterdam this New York’s originally L Mary’s land okay M the heart of Catholicism in United States right you had these things and the founders establishing more perfect union this idea of a freedom of religion and you do

You to try to to take to when kingdoms can’t fix themselves and those old institutions fail and that’s all they know and all they know how to do to resolve their problems he have a revolution Democratic Revolution which is you know who is a real American who

Has the authority to say so who’s a real brit who has the authority to say so that question about one about me comes up again right French the American Revolution the prod what I see and we’re going to be laying this out what I try is that this humanistic

Move this introduction of the third question of get in the middle of 14 we’ll have three cycles that lead today so this question about the what about me and the beginning of the masses taking Authority unto themselves to determine who’s a real Christian but also justifiably to

Demand their dignity and rights to be pastorally cared for and call people to account right to wield that moral Authority as well it’s again it’s both and Protestant Reformation is the first sort of explosion attempt of that tension that new dynamic because it’s not just between Bishop the

The church and the state it’s between the church the state and the people and the Protestant Reformation is the first sort of big thing and it tries to in many respects ease the tensions but it leads to a bloody mess right in the in the 30 Years

War there’s attempts at more coming back again again where institutions fail the second big blow up is the French Revolution which leads to a BL mass and even more so really Christianity we don’t want anything doing Christian and even though it led into a bloody mess the principles still of humanism still

Didn’t die continues on and is in the beginnings of the 20th century fermented by reactionism in the 19th century but in the eve of World War I and World War II we are the height of civilization we have democracy we’re the most intelligent we have science etc etc

We know superstitious whatever and it leads to World War I and World War II which is ends in a bloody mess Hitler Stalin these people are saying I am your savior and I am the solution to your problems I and I’m going to tell you who to blame

Right and people were hungering for leadership and then it leads to abundance that’s the eve of Vatican 2 Vatican 2 didn’t deal with theological issues really it dealt with where are we and Vatican 2 ends up back and confir the roots and the principles of the discontent and the valid

Critiques that we’ve been seeing over the last thousand years and as it the trip has experienced and says finally all right we’re going to if you leave it to the devices of anybody and everybody we’re going to see this in the scripture movement we’re going to see this again we see this in

The secular scient scientistic movements the church isn’t really in that conversation it’s reacting well it says now we’re going to now we’re going to begin to put our voice in and we’re going to do it according to what the gospel actually says that begins with a post Vatican one

Starts at Leo the 13 and beginnings of a social teaching and then the principles of fraternity Li which are again Liberty fraternity equality those tensions that are socioeconomic class political Etc Protestant Reformation French Revolution begins to identify those one that actually looks like we have a discourse an explication of what is the role of the lady collegiality of Bishops all of this leads to those questions we are still now post vatic 2 church we are still working out what

Vatican 2 gave in big Arts as we’re living into those realities how are we reacting to it just is how the counter counter reform reating TR right and what became cap of practice a lot of it de with culture in reaction against the reformers same thing happens after Vatican

2 you have what’s what what did Vatican 2 actually say versus the myth of vatic 2 and it’s on both sides of the spectrum the spirit of Vatican 2 continuity discontinuity who right and I’m going to Define myself over and against the other this is nothing new we’ve done this before it’ll all

Happen again but to think that we are some way not at all linked to the Past in a very significant and direct way particularly in this era we would be deluding ourselves and we need to be aware we need to be aware that’s that Trend we are inherit we

Inherit all of this tension it defines how America defines itself read M’s um Memoirs of the 1800s as an Italian coming into the United States in Mission territory And discussing the relationships between Protestants ands they’re still fighting their great great grandparents’ Wars of the 16th century or the 17th

Century right and those instituted biases my grandparents if you walk into a Catholic Church there t and Protestants on the other way if you walk into a Catholic Church you are putting your soul D English calling Catholics the pists where do you think we get that Irish versus the Irish Catholics versus

The Protestant North Irish all of this is the inherited things and how our identity as Catholics and Christians we’re born into this we love our families wom we love our country we love our communities we want to defend the things that are good but we have to ask

Ourselves what are we fighting about again and why because sometimes we just get swept in to this big wave and we have very little power to shift it’s it’s so massive the currents are so strong what kind of United States are we born into what concepts of

Freedom right and if we too easily anaiz our contemporary Concepts and definitions of Freedom equality etc etc and put them on a medieval Christian mind thing you’re not going to understand what happened why right that’s part of Integrity of mine as well as Integrity of Part the last four classes have really been the last three classes and today leads to this Turning Point that’s we needed to tell that story right who’s a real Christian who has the authority to say so all those different threads that lead to that Iden to understand why this happened in the 16th

Century the consequences of that that Define us today so remember the goal of this class is to cover everything we can but I am telling a story and maybe the AR of the connectedness from the very beginning Christianity today but why we look the way that we do today

Particularly the way we experience Christianity as American eural rooted Roman Catholics of the Midwest which is going to look different than a Peruvian Christian eny they have never really ever had to deal with the cultural injection of a post Reformation Catholicism and those battles and baggage

Car culturally like we do in the United States and in can and in Europe why even the Eastern Catholic Church care less about half the things that we get our nickers up in the bunch what does Catholicism have to look right why well Benedict allows for an aim look in ordinary to maintain

Anglian right does everybody have to be Roman Catholic Rish what is the opportunity for a multiculturalist that Unity of a unified Roman Catholicism that every Catholic everywhere looks the same comes from a mid 1800 VI of Catholicism and a real reaction against National expr question one single unified Roman missile 18s theor chant

1800s recovered sort of dug up nobody knew where it was until the mid 1800s you get some surgeons you see where I’m going why antimodernism why the Syllabus of Errors why R Nar right why do we have um system4 FR School of spirituality etc etc all is steming with thoughts questions Reactions it’s not I just I want you he asked five questions like minutes but I sto No there two different prayers one the glory to the Father the others glory be to the Father All right I need to take a phone Call

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