For many Collegiate women Greek life provides the opportunity for sisterhood philanthropy and Community when Kathy Kleiner enrolled at Florida State University as a freshman in 1977 she was excited to join a sorority after finishing the rush process she pledged to the kai Omega sorority and was
Thrilled to be surrounded by so many new sisters every night felt like a sleepover in the kega house Kathy and her friends would Gather in each other’s rooms borrow clothes paint each other’s nails and plan out their weekend fun the sorority house was a place that provided a sense of community Sisterhood and
Security but one night that sacred sense of safety was shattered on the night of January 14th 1978 Cathy lay asleep in her bed only to be awoken by the sound of her bedroom door opening and a thud upon her floor as her eyes opened she saw a dark figure hovering
Above her his arm raised over his head suddenly his arm Came Crashing Down and he slammed a piece of oak firewood onto Cathy’s face her jaw joints were broken her cheek ripped open her tongue almost completely severed the monster who carried out that nightmarish attack was Ted Bundy I’m
Emily compano and this is the fox True Crime Podcast both Kathy and her roommate Karen were two victims of Ted Bundy who survived his horrific attack at the kai Omega house however they lost two sorority sisters that night Ted Bundy bludgeoned and strangled 21-year-old Margaret Bowman and 20-year-old Lisa Levy while they were Sleeping throughout her recovery process Kathy was changed by the horrors and pain that had been inflicted on her the vicious attack sent Cathy into a sea of darkness and for a long time it seemed impossible to find her way Out but over time Cathy envisioned a small island in the middle of that sea with a chair waiting for her and gradually she made her way there in her book a light in the dark surviving more than Ted Bundy Kathy details the unthinkable attack the aftermath and her journey to heal her
Trauma today she joins me to share her Story of Survival and her message of Hope for others experiencing Darkness as well I was sick all the time and my parents took me to the hospital for a doctor’s exam and I ended up staying there for three months because they
Didn’t know what I had in 197 uh6 or 71 actually they didn’t know lupus and and a child and it was just nothing they put together so they weren’t looking for that they were doing all kinds of tests and at the end of three months they said
To my parents to send me home and just keep me comfortable because I was dying and they didn’t know why so there was a doctor we were in Miami and there was a doctor laasa who was from Cuba and she asked my parents if she could try experimental chemo and my parents were
Like sure anything you know just tried to save our baby so um I did do that and after about two sessions I lost all my hair and I was real puny and just sick and because of the chemo I wasn’t allowed to go out or have anyone come in
So um for you know the whole year I was just sitting out and looking out the window and watching the kids play and you know it was just a sad time it was lonely and I knew I wasn’t going to stay like that I knew you know once that door
Opened I was going to keep going I didn’t want to dwell on what I had been through I just wanted to see what else was out there I didn’t want it to follow me so it sounds like even at this young age of 13 you had or developed this
Resiliency a conviction a determination that that was not the end yes definitely and share about how that came into play years later it was in 1978 I graduated from high school which I loved I actually joined theater department when I was um and as a freshman and I loved it I made
Some best friends and I learned how to act and play and be anyone I wanted to be except that sick little kid that was home in seventh grade with no hair and I could put her as far away from me as I wanted to so after high school I decided
To go to FSU my parents lived in Miami and I figured out that Florida state was as far away away from Miami as I could get and still get in state to so that was why I was like go FSU so a bunch of my friends went there from from
High school as well and it was great I joined um I moved into a dorm in my freshman year and I also pledged Kai Omega sori and what that is is you go and visit soris and soris uh get to know you better and at the end of the week
You choose a sority and they choose a person and if you two match then you join the sority if I wanted a sorority like Kyo and they didn’t ask me to join them then I wouldn’t have anywhere any other sororities so thank goodness I pledged Kyo and they accepted me so this
Is the fall of 1976 and um I lived in the dorm which my parents hated they thought it was so unsafe and anyone could walk in at any time and they insisted I stayed in an all female dormatory because it was it was just something they thought was safer than the co-ed door
Can I ask you the reason that they thought that had something happened to make them think that or was that just a they yeah they were overprotective I think because of the lupus they wanted to make sure you know I was in the best hands could be and they you know you
Hear all kinds of things that can happen in a dormatory so it came to be the summer of 77 and I was uh going to go back to the dorm again the fall but my parents made arrange for me to move into the kai Omega house for the fall and they
Thought it was such a nice safe place and that their little daughter was going to be good there I can’t imagine The Angst they must have felt when they put me in that house and then knowing what happened I mean we never even talked about I didn’t want to bring up that
Terrible feeling for them and they just never call talked about it so but I you know has as a mother I can only imagine putting their their daughter in that um so the fall of 77 I joined Kyo and I moved into the room and it was great I
Had an upper classman as a roommate and we were decorating the room and picked out a a bed sheet and bed spreads that just brought life into the bedroom we lived in the uh the sority house we were on the second floor of the sority and
Our our room faced the back parking lot and we had a bankman of Windows that went all across the back of the wall and we had curtain rods open and the curtains were open all the time because we hung rods and had beautiful plants hanging down and the the room was about
The size of a dormatory and it kind of mirrored the sides we walked into the room we had beautiful plush carpet and on the left was my closet and then next to that was my dresser and I had my little makeup and my little things on it
And then next to that going down the wall was my desk and then at the end of the wall was my twin bed and my headboard faced against that back wall where the windows were and in between our beds we had a little Foot Locker that they called then it was just a
Little Foot Locker and we had books on it and I put my glasses on it and it was just extra storage we had in the sorority house so I was so happy to be there and can you describe um so how many girls lived total in the sorority
And you talked about how your parents put you there what was that what was the living situation like in general because for example in my in my college um you lived in the sority house all four years you had to there was no other option you
Could be a senior live out if you got enough points but for the most part everyone had to live and so were there some girls in your class that weren’t there what was the amount of you that lived there tell us about the rest of the house okay there were um about 40
Girls that lived in the house and Kyle had a larger amount of sisters and that so if you were fortunate enough to get into the sorority house most uh lived Indo Ms or um on off off-site campuses um Apartments so it wasn’t mandatory there were other things we had to do
Like go to meetings and everything that were mandatory but at the Kyo we were just um it was a beautiful big building and had um downstairs was a beautiful living room and dining area and then we had a for former parlor and around the corner was the recck room and that was a
Big room with lots of pillows and sofa and TV it was just a place all the girls could hang out and then if you go upstairs up the big wooden staircase in the foyer upstairs went to two long rows of uh rooms so two hallways and um so each girl had two
Each room had two s sisters that lived in it and um most rooms were taken I mean everyone wanted to be in the house so uh most of the sority rooms were full and it was just it was fun it was always having people around and I had one
Sister and one brother when I was growing up and just to have all these girls and friends and pajama parties and you know doing the Kyo what we had to do and then going out on campus and we had fun with parties and it was a great
Place it was a happy happy place far far removed from when I was you know had chemo and was home alone this was just this was what I was living for you know all that just slid further and further behind me and um I was living for the
Moment so then how long did that happy chapter last before everything changing I moved into the house in the fall of 77 then January December of 77 and January of 78 it was um a regular school you know week calculus test and all this other stuff I had to go through and then
Friday night a big frat party and on Saturday Saturday the uh 14th of January I went to a wedding during the day and hung out with friends and it became really really cold it was uh warm one day and cold the next in Tallahassee so
I got to wear a heavy blank a sweater that I never really wore before and I love the change so being from Miami it was always warm so having this little change in the climate was was great I was loving it so that was Saturday the
14th and went to the party went to the wedding went to a party after decided to go home early because I had to test for calculus on Monday and I wanted to get some studying done so I did I went back to the soryy house and it was full of
Girls I was coming back early and everyone was just going out for the night you know so it was it was fun but uh my roommate was in my room and she was doing a sewing project on her board on her bed so I got my book and I’m
Sitting up and I’m studying and finally around 11:30 she and I decided to go to sleep so we turned off our lights and we closed our door and we promptly I I went right to sleep and it was so quiet inside the bedroom it was comfortable
The temperature it was cold out so the temperature felt good I remember sleeping and then I heard a noise and I didn’t know what it was it it woke me a little bit it was the sound of the door scraping against the carpet when it was
Being opened up and I heard that sound and it wasn’t enough to wake me up just kind of what is that sound and the next thing I know I hear this loud thud someone had entered our room and tripped over that little Foot Locker that we had
Between our beds now I’m awake and I’m looking I’m looking at him and I see someone standing next to me and he seemed like a big big thing this big black mass and I saw him raise his arm up over his head and he had something in his hand I
Couldn’t tell but that ended up being a piece of firewood that he had picked up when he came in the back door of the sorority house our combination lock wasn’t working so he just opened the door and walked in picked up that piece of firewood from the firewood pile by
The door and walked up into the sorority house he came into our bedroom well first he went into Margaret Bowman’s bedroom she was a sority sister that was a upper classman she was beautiful she always had time to speak with everybody and she was just so polite and sweet and
Comfortable to be with he attacked her with that piece of log and he hit her on the head so hard that it exposed her skull and she she was laying there and then he strangled her so he left her dead and went across the hall to the
Next room and that was Lisa Levy’s room and again he attacked her with the log he closed her door door and that’s when he walked into our room and that’s when I heard the carpet Swiss against the bottom of the door so now I’m seeing this guy standing next to me with
Something in his arm and it turned out to be that piece of firewood that he had picked up and he slammed it down on my face so hard it tore a hole in my cheek so you could see the teeth in my mouth through my cheek he broke the jaw in two places
And shattered the chin bone so bad that they had to just reconstruct it with wire I was sitting there now at first it’s weird because it didn’t hurt it was just like a thud I guess your mind’s trying to capture everything that’s going on and pain wasn’t exactly right
At that moment might have taken three minutes and then it hurt it hurt so bad and so all this commotion woke up my roommate so this person trunk tripped over that trunk again to get to her side of the bed and he attacked her with the same Club the same piece of
Firewood he heard me still alive I was trying to moan and groan and scream but all I was making were little squeaky sounds because my my jaw was open and I touched my face and it was warm and sticky from all the blood and I couldn’t talk my tongue was almost shivered off
Shaved off so it was just I was in a bad State and I didn’t I didn’t think this man had gone yet and I put myself under the covers in the smallest little ball I could make myself cuz I figured if he couldn’t see me he wouldn’t hit me and I
Knew if he hit me again I’d be dead so he came back over and he moved the sheets and he saw me my little ball and he raised his arm up again and just before he threw it down on me the light Shone up in the room our bedroom
Actually bright light was in there you could see everything and I could see this person now but without my glasses I couldn’t see his face so he looked there and he was spooked around and he kind of moved around a little bit and he got spooked because I think he thought the
Light coming in is going to catch him he didn’t understand it was the parking lot below us and a car was coming into the parking lot that we faced so that’s what it was and I don’t think he knew he thought somebody else must have been in there Bundy was
Non-confrontational he always attacked women from the re the back or he killed them asleep in their bed and that’s what he was trying to do with my roommate ni just kill us asleep in our bed as he did with Margaret and Lisa my sority sisters
So now he’s all raved up and he runs out my door and I’m laying there and I’m hurting and I’m screaming and yelling and all I’m doing is making gurgling sounds and the light went out in the room and it became all dark again and I scrunched down into my littlest ball
Because I thought with the room dark he’s got to be coming back to hit me again and that’s what I remember that night until the paramedics came and 911 was called the girls called 911 because my roommate had gotten out of her bed and walked down into the hallway where
One of the other sorty sisters saw her and they turned her around to walk us walk her back into our bedroom turned on the light and that they saw that she was bloody and they saw me in a little ball all bloody and my sheets were all bloody
And the wall was bloody and there was oak bark on the ground so that’s how the police knew exactly what happened to us that he had hit us with the club of wood so I’m laying there and on my bed and I’m hurting and I see a police officer I
Look up and there he is there’s a policeman standing right next to my head and I said oh my God I’m not going to get hit again this policeman’s going to save me he’s going to protect me and I know I passed in and out of Consciousness during this whole time but
The paramedics put me on the stretcher and was carrying me down that beautiful wooden staircase that I loved that went into through the foyer and it was so cold out they had the doors open and they were carrying me down on a stretcher and I started freezing it was
Misty and cold it was like 30° and They Carried me in the stretcher and they the lights were all around the police lights the ambulance lights and the fir Tru lights and the police and everyone were talking on their walkie-talkies and they walked me down and for a minute I
Thought I was in a carnival I looked to my side and I could see the carnival robe and I could see the ferris will at the very end and I could hear everyone talking and having a good time and then I looked around and it was dark again
And they put me into the ambulance and I think that Carnival kind of helped me to just tell that my life is not dead you know that was uh it was a happy thing to think about it wasn’t just black from being outside so I appreciate my mind
Helping me cope with that as well so tell us about then the aftermath and your recovery and the families of the girls and your sisters the sorority sisters um that terrible Ripple impact that Ted Bundy had when I was attacked I didn’t even know of Ted
Bundy I have no clue you know who he was and people said were you following him and this yeah no I was at fret parties so I didn’t know who he was and when he had left our house he went down and killed another woman or attacked another
Woman Cheryl that lived in a duplex down the house and when I left the hospital it was a week later they were driving me back to tallah hat to the airport for me and my parents to fly back down to Miami where I was living then and they wanted
To drive me by the kega house and they stopped in front of it and my mouth is wired shut and my my B my head is bandaged and I was hurting and I’m like rub what what are we doing and they said we want you to
Check your room to see if anything was missing off the dresser or anything and I’m like I couldn’t do it but an officer took each elbow and walked me up slowly up the staircase and I turned the corner and I saw Lisa’s room and Margaret’s room they’re doors
Were closed and they had yellow crime scene tape around the door I had no idea what that meant then they walked me into my room they lift the yellow tape and I walked in and there were people in there and it was like a blur everything was
Happening and really all I saw was the black dust for fingerprints that was all over everything and they said do you see anything missing from your dresser and at that point I don’t remember what was on the dresser to see if anything was missing but my eyes followed down the
Wall and I saw my bed and my beautiful bed spread I had just purchased in December was all balled up in a little ball it was all brown with stained blood and it was at at the foot of the bed and then the sheets had been taken off the
Mattress but it was Bloody it was all brown blood and the walls had blood on it and I I I said I want to go I I don’t want to be here but I’m glad I did and away because I know exactly what happened I know exactly where it happened and I
Wouldn’t have in the future try to make something up to make it fit the story because I saw it myself and I think that gave me some stability and also some power over the situation because I had walked away from that I left Tallahassee then and stayed in Miami for a
Recuperation and I was I was mad I was hurting I was angry I was depressed I was mad I was mad mad that I had to leave our state and I was mad I had to leave the sorority house and all my friends and sisters and I was just mad I
Was taken home and I was home alone now with my family to recuperate and I tried calling the sorority sisters a couple times and I could only talk like this if you have your jaws clenched so a couple times my mother and I sat in the kitchen
In Miami and called the sity house and we had to leave messages for the girls cuz no one at that point was there when we called and no one called me back there were weeks afterwards and Mom saidd don’t call anymore they know you’re here and they never called me they never reached
Out to me and for the longest time that hurt so bad it hurt that healing mentally was as hard as healing physically and that just changed my life again I was in this road and I felt so deserted and trying to recuperate and I knew I would I knew I’d get better from
This it just was going to take a long time because I wasn’t going to let this thing stop me nothing had stopped me with lupus in this situation I didn’t know how long it would take to get through it but I knew I would and when I
Was at home and depressed and hurting I wanted to get away from it and I felt like I had a black cloak over me this black just Haze and it scared me and I didn’t like it and I couldn’t fight my way through it but far off in the land
Way out in the the ocean I saw this little bitty Island and it had one palm tree and one sand chair sitting there and I wanted to get to My Island because I thought it was sunny there and it was going to be okay if I got there but it
Took me baby steps it took me weeks and weeks to go to see my Island and I took baby steps and I turned around and this black mass was baby steps behind me and I kept walking in baby steps and I finally got to My Island I sat down I
Put my toes in the sand and I looked up and this black mass was completely gone I couldn’t see any of it it was gone and I took a deep breath and said you know life’s going to be good now I’ve gotten through and gotten over this uh another
Thing though that I had experienced was I had um it wasn’t a fear of men it was that I was uncomfortable to be around men I didn’t know and I was wired shut for nine weeks and soon I became unwired I was scared of men so I figured where
Could I go to work where I could see the most men at the shortest amount of time and I figured a lumber yard so I got a job at a cashier at a lumber yard and I saw a lot of guys really quick and none of them scared me none of them were
Going to hurt me and the smell of the wood in the lumber yard was the smell of the Oakwood that had hit me and it kind of It kind of bumped up a lot of feelings for me but after about three weeks I didn’t I didn’t need to work
There anymore my my option of do staying there and and just working with the men and so I quit and I learned that there’s a lot of cute construction workers out there that come and buy things at lumber yards so that that was a good thing that
Was a good thing that’s a tremendous um coping decision that you deployed there um did you come up with that idea on your own or was there someone that suggested to you to immerse yourself in what made you uncomfortable to Bubble those feelings up and be able to process
Them quick I did not speak with anyone um my mother’s Cuban and we don’t tell our laundry to anybody you know we kind of um she didn’t want a therapist come in and hearing all our business and knowing what was going on so um I I did
It on my own I did it by myself and during the the weeks of recovery my parents would all the uh things about Bundy out of the newspaper anything they had to do with him so I’d read the newspaper and had you know big squares cut out of it because they didn’t want
Me to see anything they didn’t want me to hear anything and you know traumatize me more so I did not go through therapy I just did it on my own when you talked about not speaking with your sisters and having them not call you back um social isolation can
Have a impact on the brain as much as physical pain does and it can be um even more painful so hearing that it it just breaks my heart so you never or did you as an adult connect with your roommate Karen who survived or any other sisters did you
Ever process why you think that they didn’t out I sent a couple letters over the years and I don’t know if I sent them to the wrong address or whatever but I didn’t get a response and I didn’t know why I had to reach forth and try to
Reach out to people when there were so many of them that you know it’s I I just didn’t and my life went on I got married I had a kid and life was wonderful and I didn’t need to go back and and hear hear anything I know they had lives too and
As 21 and 22 years old they were traumatized you know as much staying in the sorority house so they had their own things they were dealing with and I think I was dealing with ours and it just went in total opposite directions on how we were dealing with it but over
The years I’ve never talked to any of them and you know there was a time in my life where I thought I needed them I I needed them to tell me I had done nothing wrong and that I had to leave sorority house but they were going to be
My friends and huddle around me and give me that love and support and since I never got it I figured out I didn’t need it that you know their comfort would have been wonderful but I did it on my own I did it without them so you know
They had like I said their own trauma they were living through so um we’re just on different paths to Healing yeah going back to that terrible night and the week in the hospital when did you find out and can you sort of walk us through if you’re comfortable with it um
During the actual attack an instant can feel like an hour and you can have so many thoughts that go through your brain so when you saw the Black Mass you realized it was a man with a log those those dots were being connected did you immediately know this is a stranger this
Is an attacker was there any kind of attempt that your brain made is this a relative you know is there anything that happened or did you know immediately this is a stranger that has broken into the house and then can you walk us through in your recovery like when did
You learn that you had lost Lisa and Margaret when did you learn Karen was attacked to during your recovery Etc yeah yeah um without my glasses I couldn’t see who it was it was just a big blurry person standing there and I didn’t know what his intent was I didn’t
Process as fast as I could I think because I was trying to focus and because of focusing I didn’t concentrate on what he was doing there um but I knew it wasn’t good I knew he was a bad man I knew something bad was standing NE
Standing next to me and that uh put me into the fear of when he hit me the first time and then turned away that I was going to get hit again I just knew yeah and as hard as he hit me the first
Time I knew it was I was going to die I just had that sick feeling in your stomach that you can’t control and you don’t know what to do with it and that’s why I crawled into a little ball in my bed because I really thought if he
Couldn’t see me he wouldn’t hit me and um you know it’s just smallest ball and I’m squinching with my eyes I wanted to see but I didn’t want to see what was next so um that was a hard time trying to take it seemed like forever and then it s felt like three
Minutes it was 3:00 in the morning so it was you know dead of night and you know me sleeping and everything and it was just something I woke up to so I didn’t I knew it wasn’t a good thing and then when and how did you learn of the extent
Of his horrible murderous spree Margaret and Lisa and the neighbor down the street and Karen’s attack were you in recovery while you learned of the extent of his attack yeah yes yes I had gone home a week after the uh attack so I was in Miami and my mother wasn’t real good
On um giving information to me because again from lupus she was so protective of me she didn’t want to says Do’s closed in the caution tape so you did not know at that point that he had killed two of your sisters and attacked Karen also no no it was just
During the weeks later that um I actually think I heard it on television we were living in Miami so I think you know Mama Tried to keep me away from TV but um I I remember that’s the first time I heard of it she didn’t actually
Come and tell me it was you know Margaret and Lisa Bowman you know it’s just on the news coverage and um that’s how I found out that they had been killed so what was finding that out like it it hurt it hurt so bad cuz I
Knew them I knew them as people and and they had so much to live for and Lisa was so bubbly and how many times we sit in her room doing our toenails and our fingernails and you know with a bunch of sisters in there and she was just and
Both of them were so quick on helping us the pledges you know if we had questions to learn about the laws and bylaws of of Kyo and there were just everyone would help anytime and stop and help us and I think that’s what I didn’t understand
Why for a year I had so much Community around me and then to sit at home it was my mom my dad and my sister and that’s that’s how I recuperated and I think I wanted to get out of there so bad and so fast because I felt like I was drowning
I was just drowning at home because I was feeling sorry for myself I was mad I didn’t have my friends I didn’t have my high school friends you know it was just it was a bad bad time for me and I couldn’t imagine what Lisa and Margaret’s parents you know had to go
Through with their beautiful daughters you have written a light inth dark um a book about your experiences and I apologize for for repeating this but just to to ask so during this process of writing the book um which I’d love to hear more about here as well so
You never connected with any of any of the sisters or any of their families and since it has come out there’s been no no it’s just so hard for me to Fathom I think that’s why I keep asking that it just makes me so sad I know I’m sorry
Would love to I would love to and you know I would love to reach out and I’d love for them to reach out so it’s what about the trial process and the prosecution process and the media coverage at the time um what was that process like for you um working with law
Enforcement and and how was that chapter in this right when I went back to Miami to recuperate the uh Sun Sentinel the Miami newspaper put my name and address in the newspaper and that was we didn’t know who had attacked me and now everyone knew where I lived and my name and my
Address so um the police were called and I had um there was a police car stationed across our street all day and night there was they took turns and there was a police officer that actually Sat by our front door in the first days because I was scared my parents were
Really scared for me and um so the place there was a great just a relief to know that they were there um and then I did have um I got married in Jan uh I’m sorry June of 1978 I was dating a guy in high school I
Mean in college we had known just six months later yes were you engaged at the time of the attack no no we hadn’t even dated a full year and it was um I think my mom wanted me to be safe and married and his parents thought it was a
Wonderful idea and I was like all right you know I had been through so many changes at that point I was just on a okay whatever you say on his frame of mind because everything was whirl Whirlwind so I got married six months after the attack and that was the uh
Summer of 78 and in 78 in the fall I was subpoena to be on the deposit I had to go into a room in a conference room in Tallahassee with a long conference table that I set at the head of the table and on one side was defense
Attorneys and the other side was prosecution and when I sat down I looked down at the other head of the table and there was Ted Bundy he was sitting there and I saw him and I had to take a deep breath and I looked at him and I wasn’t
Scared I didn’t feel anything I was numb I didn’t know what to expect I didn’t expect to see this thing down at the other end and to me he just was like white with black eyes he didn’t even really look like a person he was lightskinned anyway but he was just
Sitting there like this with his head and you know like come on let’s get over this no no one’s going to do anything to me and this was the deposition so I finally left out of that and went out in the hallway with my parents and I almost threw up because I
Didn’t know how to process everything and seeing Bundy at the end of the table so the next time I was subpoena was to go to the grand jury and I went to the grand jury and once again there was Ted Bundy sitting at the table so that was the second time
I saw him and I don’t know if he was trying to intimidate me or anything but he he kind of you know was talking and the defense and uh prosecution were talking and I don’t even remember what they said you know it was in my own Zone
And it was like it was it was just horrible to see him again um now I’m really I get through the stages of being hurt and now I’m still mad because this is the one that took me out of my life the life is I knew it it was him so then
The third time I saw him was the trial and it was in the spring of 79 and they had moved the trial from Tallahassee to Miami so there was a big buzz in Miami of everything going on and now everyone knew where I lived and they
Knew my name and it was like the police were all around us and the court room was very hard to get to it was downtown Miami and it was swarmed with reporters and police cars and you know Spectators and everything and it went on um I think
It last about four weeks but it was my turn to testify and I had to be put in through this crowd of people to get into the courtroom and I was put into a room with a bunch of uh other people who turned out to be the paramedics and the
Police officer and all the people that were around that night that helped us and they were all testifying as well so it was so nice to give big hugs the paramedics because I remember them you know attending to me and helping me and the police officers it was just it was
Just a Love Fest as far as I was concerned so it’s my turn to testify and I go in through the uh Galley and I sit down at the witness box and I’m born in I turn around the defense on one side prosecution on the other and Ted Bundy
Sitting with his attent and he was sitting there like acting like oh I’m you know just get over with you’re never going to do anything you’re wasting my time he was just really adamated and just uncomfortable he did not ask me any questions the attorney attorneys did and
The prosecution asked you know were you attack that night what’s your name where did you live you you know the common setting up the scene and then the defense started asking me questions and they asked me certain things and then I’m still staring at Bundy and not comprehending what’s going on and what
I’m saying and then the defense asked me one last question and they said is this the man you saw and you accuse of coming into your room that night and attacking you and I wanted so much to put Ted Bundy away I wanted to help convict him
And kill him and but I had to say no I don’t know if that was him because I didn’t have my glasses on and I never saw his face and that still haunts me that I couldn’t help convict him I mean he was convicted but in my soul I wish I
Had help I did the best I could and I told my story but um that just has always bothered me that I couldn’t help Kathy you helped please do not Harbor any guilt or any angst over that I promise you your presence your presence was enough your story was enough
Everything was enough you are enough you not identifying him positively in that moment I promise you had no bearing not only do we know that he was convicted but also you survived and you were the brave Survivor of a monstrous attack by a monster that you helped convict yes
And and you know what you were honest you were absolutely honest your integrity is supreme so I hope you sleep at night better knowing that you told the truth and that Justice was served regardless he was the monster you helped yeah and he was such a monster he was so
The stories they tell about him as a cute and intelligent and you know a nice guy down the street and he was so not that he was so he was so manipulative that he wanted people to see him as a day during the day and try to act normal
Where he didn’t have a job he didn’t have any money he stole clothes he stole credit cards women’s purses and he looked in Windows when he was a child and um peeping Tom and he just grew up and grew up in into this hideous thing
That he wanted no one to see the real Bundy but he was out there even during the day it was hard for him to cope he wanted he wanted to steal the souls of women and he wanted that much control over what he did to them and to say he
Was Charming he wasn’t he he couldn’t make it through law school he went through two different schools and he quit he couldn’t handle it he couldn’t do the the study and the um the intense um thing it takes to go into a field like that and he was just a loser he
Really was and he just like I said attacked women in bed or from behind and he would never confront any body he never came front front forward to attack someone and he never uh if there was a man around or if there’s any way he thought he could be caught he would turn
His cycle around and you know just turn around and walk away and go to a victim that was easily overcome he is a monster a spineless monster you are so brave you were you were so brave that night you exhibited such resilience and such um amazing tenacity and determination the will to
Survive the smarts you outsmarted him times a million you out braved him times a million and then you looked him in the eye three times at a deposition at the Grand Jury testimony and on the stand you looked him in the eyes he yes is weak and a monster and you are
Incredible thank you how do you feel now there have been changes made to the criminal justice system which protects victims and um seeks to ensure they are not ret traumatized multiple times by for example putting them in a room without any notice facing their monstrous attacker do you feel um how do
You feel about the changes that exist now in place that your situation will not be repeated or is supposed to not be repeated anymore yes I think oh it’s amazing I mean you’re a victim for one day for one night whatever happens to you but then you’re a Survivor the day
After you’re a Survivor even if it’s something going on ongoing you have to get through it you have to walk take your baby steps and go anywhere else but what you’re sitting in and I think as uh survivors now they are being recognized and giving more Authority and being able
To take it on themselves and to handle more because they are given more instruction and more information this is a small detail but can I ask you about your back door where the key code wasn’t working um did everyone know that it wasn’t working tell me more about that the um the lock
The pad lock on the door was broken it didn’t always close you know you could do the alarm I mean the code and it opened up the door and it didn’t already always slam shut and we had told the um house mother and also our um our guy
That helped us around the house and changed light bulbs and you know did all this stuff and they just hadn’t had a chance to get it fixed yet and we think when he was um at a bar which is not far from our sorority house he followed two
Girls home two sisters that were coming home that night from the bar and we think he followed them and hid in the bushes when he saw that the door unlocked and then didn’t close all the way that was his that was his access to a house of 40 sleeping women and he
Picked up that piece of Oak and he knew he always he always used a crowbar crowbar or he used something else that he attacked women with so this extension of the log was just something he was used to so um just that he could walk in
Like that is amazing and yet you know so the back door’s locked you know back then in 78 we weren’t thinking of you know the guy next door coming to kill you you know that just wasn’t in our our thoughts and not everyone used the back door the front door was the main
Entrance to the house um but you know it happened that’s the way it happened and um it just um you know when things happen to me I deal with it and then I move on and for having that back door I can’t blame anyone because it was just a
Sequence of events and it was Bundy he was going to make his own thing happen and if that door hadn’t been broken into he may have gotten into another house you know it wasn’t that he had to do kai Omega sity he followed two girls home
From the bar and he saw the um option of going in or not and that’s what he did he came in that door no other sisters testified at the TR yes yes Nita ner was the Sor sister that had come home that night at 3 in the morning and the light
That Shone up in our room were the lights from his the car his date was bringing home so when he came into the parking notot the lights blew into our room and because our window shades were always open hanging plants on the rods that’s the car that drove up that’s the
Light and Nita ner was the sorty sister that came home and she actually was coming around the side of the uh recck room and he had come down the front stairs right straight out the front doors so she saw him from the side view he didn’t see her cuz he was running out
The door so he came down the stairs across the forer and out the front door and she was just turning the bend just turning the corner and saw just part of him leaving through the house and she also testified um she helped draw the um composite and it looked like him and she
Did a lot for the for the case and the prosecution also my roommate testified and several other girls that were in the sority testified at the trial but none of you saw none of them at the courthouse I did they were in a room in the big room and we hugged and loved
Each other that was the first and only time okay so yeah what was can you share what was that what that like was like for you and did that feel like a a connection and a closure or no just a connection um they told us not to talk
To each other because they didn’t want us talking about this the trial so they really didn’t want although we had nothing to want to talk about the trial and it was interesting because it had been you know a year since the attack and it was like I was tired and to see
All these girls and I was kind of upset that none of them that you know they came to Miami they knew exactly where I lived and none of them called and said hey we’re coming to Miami you want to get together you know it was like I I
Didn’t even know who was coming I couldn’t have coordinated anything because I didn’t know who was coming so but for that to not happen it kind of made me upset again I see so I don’t know if seeing them made me happy or sad I see we talked about this a little bit
When you and I spent time together in Orlando but you know I I went to the University of Washington and I was a Theta there Kappa Alpha Theta and Georgiana Hawkins um was a Theta there and she went missing on June 11th 1974 and she was killed by Ted Bundy and
Hearing you describe Kai Omega which I still know all your songs too cuz I remember them all from Russian but yours stands out um you guys had a great song and I the joy you describe the sense of belonging um the positivity the really special environment that living with a
Group of healthy happy supportive sisters can bring and then you know the poison the poison that just exploded it all that that monster was it just it’s so heartbreaking because I feel like I I experienced that and we would see you know in our book we would see Georgiana
Hawkins name and it just was so heartbreaking for us we were the daughters of women around that time and who had had interactions with the monster at udub and in um the isqua area and whatnot these were his attacks before he moved to the east coast and
Inflicted pain in Florida and it just feels so visceral because I don’t want to say naivity because it’s just innocence that girls have at that age and in that living situation you know you’re flanked by fraternities and sororities and there’s Alleyways that connect everyone we also had the parking
Lot right behind our windows that faced out we I don’t even think we had I don’t even know if we had blanks and the whole thing is that you live in an existence of joy and Community um and he he ripped that all away he ripped it away from
Georgiana Hawkins family and her sisters and that whole pledge class and you got it just it’s just so heartbreaking something I do do in my book a light in the dark there 36 women that we know for sure or we can we can put together with Bundy killingham and I
Have each name I tell a little bit about them who they were what they dreamt of what they wanted to do and I I gave a voice to that to that girl I wanted you know my story is my story and I can talk about it and each time I do talk it
Heals me yeah because it feels like I’m getting more off my more off my heart and it’s like shaving an onion it just feels better and better but the girls usually in a book from Ted Bundy you look for his victims and there’s one paragraph and it’s each of the names
Comma you know it’s just one paragraph with names in it and that just seems so unfair because I I continued and I have a life and they don’t but I don’t want them to be forgotten so in my book I give 36 little biographies on each of the women thank you
Thank you were you able to pursue your dreams and what dreams did you pursue and what did you learn and what Adventures did you have after the attack it was a couple years later I got divorced so um I think whomever I had married six months after the attack was
Not a good idea you know just because of the situation and we just grew apart we just didn’t have this Foundation I think that we needed for a marriage but um I did have my son Little Mikey he was uh two years old when I got divorced so I
Was working actually I was a teller at a bank I worked um in in the mornings at a bank and one day um I it was my turn to open my teller W window coming back from lunch I came down the stairs and I moved
My window and this guy came up and he had a nice suit on looked nice and he had a Lether little Leather Pouch and he put it on on the on the counter and he said I want all your money I thought it was a joke I’m like what and he opened
Up his pouch and he had a gun in it so now he’s standing in front of me holding a gun on me asking for all my money and I am just like freaked out and the next thing I know there a police car behind me in the Drive-Thru window and this
Person saw him and ended up running out of the building and the police pursued him and caught him but that was an experience that um I didn’t expect to happen was to be robbed at gunpoint yes and I just I feel like than you didn’t you know behind you was this police car
And he ran and I’m I’m picturing as the deterrent I I so strong and you’re so brave and I’m I I want to go back in time and Shout to him do you know who you are doing that to she is the strongest bravest woman on the planet do
You know who you are trying to rob you know it’s like You’ have so much the whole galaxy of strengthen you I mean you know at that point though I was underneath the counter with my legs just shivering all the tellers gotten one little ball oh my goodness but it was
Okay it that’s okay too that’s just the physical your spirit is imp penetrable um well once I did the banking um I found that I couldn’t handle hospitals um being um in the hospital for three months after the um when I was first diagnosed with lupus and then the
Years of uh uh surgery actually and chemo and then um Bundy that hospital experience was horrible and it was so bad I couldn’t even go visit a friend who had a baby I just couldn’t walk through those doors I just I’d sit outside and wait for them to come out
And I found this was not not normal not something that I should be able to walk anywhere I want I should be able to this phobia was something I didn’t want to mess with so I went and went to human resources and got a job at the hospital
So every day I had to walk into a hospital and that reded myself really fast and I was able to walk in and out the back door anytime I wanted to and you you also survived breast cancer yes and was that um was that hospital experience more positive for you and of
Course a wonderful yeah yeah it was I had um in theater in high school I met a lot of good friends and one of them was my friend Scott rubben and we would play and act and do things scenes together and I actually ended up meeting him
Again and and marrying him back in 1989 so that was great we got married and um I was you know I had me my family you know my son and we moved to Athens Georgia and we were having a good life then Scott and I decided we wanted to
Have a baby so I went to the GYN to have a physical and say you know found someone finally who worked with patients with lupus because not everyone does I just didn’t want to go to somebody who didn’t so I did my homework and found
The doctor he did the exam that day and found a lump in my breast and he goes why didn’t you tell me you had this and I said I didn’t know and it was the size of a p it was so small and my husband had to go out of the country
Right when this was all happening at the same time he had to go to Finland to do some work um he’s a brain scientist and he was going over there to work and he uh he left and the gynecologist told me what it was that it had to be checked
Out so I went to a surgeon while Scott was gone and they couldn’t aspirate it so he said I’m afraid it’s cancel but of course we have to do the whole whole thing of taking it out and sending it to um to a lab so now I told my husband
About it when he came home and he was really mad that I waited and didn’t call him home right away but that was my decision because he was there on business it was work and he was getting his PhD so all this kind of was in my
Head falling into place this is the way it had to go so by the time they uh removed the lump it was stage two breast cancer and I had to go through chemo again and I just that just wasn’t fair that wasn’t right to have to have chemo again and I lost my
Hair and my son didn’t really comprehend what everything was about he knew something was going on you know I didn’t sit and cry and be oh me I had my chemo and I would go upstairs to the room for a couple days in our house and my mom and
Dad would come and visit and take my camping and you know doing all this and I asked him now you know Mike how did you feel knowing I had cancer he goes I got I got to go camping a lot that was his memory of me having cancer so um everything everything
Settled down and we decided again to have a a baby and about eight weeks into it I had a miscarriage and I know so many women go through miscarriages and I dealt with the fact that I can do anything I can get myself passed and through anything but I
Couldn’t save my baby I couldn’t help him get through anything and that took a toll on me it really did and I came to grips with it and then we decided again to try to have a baby and after 12 weeks I lost my baby again
And I I couldn’t do I I said to Scott I can’t do this anymore I just I can’t handle it and you know my emtions finally came back into play of who I was and what I have been through and I see Michael and I have my Michael and just
Because my life didn’t go the way that we wanted it to go doesn’t mean it’s a bad life it just took a different direction and um so after the second misscarriage we decided to buy a sailboat and we called her Sally that became a new baby and then we got motorcycles and we
Ride motorcycles so life’s great I’m enjoying every bit of it it’s just I have two grandchildren now we get to see them pretty often and you know it’s great life’s great to go forward that’s phenomenal and tell us a little bit about your book what is in there this
Story of yours what more can we learn about you in that book The Story um starts out when I’m young and goes through more of the chemo stage and the doctor and how I was actually I I tried to bring the reader into the room I went
To and the cold table had to lay on his exam room it’s like I want them to feel and feel the terazzo cold floor in Miami and kind of put this all in their head as they’re walking through my story so I go into more detail um about that and
How in high school how much fun I had and there’s pictures of me and uh a MIM Troop that we were in and my husband Scott’s in there there’s a bunch of photos and photos of Scott and I and a lot of Mikey because he was a you know
He was a Shining Force in my life life so it’s just a lot more details about the story and you say the the title is a light in the dark um what is surviving more in Ted Bundy right what is the light in the dark is it the car lights
Headlights that stopped him is it also is it your family is it the island is it all of the above and more it’s all the above physically the light in the dark is the room at first but then as my co-author Emily l casy rode up it was
Just like so much more you know that light had wo has re wov through my life and it’s not been as remarkable as that bright light but then it has been because the light of my life and the light of my family and you know there’s
Just so much to be grateful for and you people have bad times and I have bad times and I’m just not going to sit in a room and worry about it I’m going to get out there and anyone who’s going through anything they can just like I said the
First day of the attack you’re a victim the rest of your life you’re a Survivor and you just need to go forward and find something and hope for something find a goal and just walk take your baby steps like I said and find something you want
To do and do it it’s going to take forever to get there you’ll never be the same you change forever it’s just how you’re going to walk through life now and see it through a different image and see it the way you want it to make it to
Be yeah Kathy you’re so incredible you are such a light yourself and I knew it the second I Met You in Orlando and um you are such a beautiful woman and human inside and out I’m so grateful for you taking your time to share your story
With us and to share um such intimate and vulnerable um feelings that you’ve had and trusting us with this platform and for the example that you are to so many you are such a brave survivor thank you is there anything that you’d like anything else that you want to share
With listeners I just my heart opens up to people that have had trauma and it’s you know it’s the next day it’s the rest of your life and you can make it what you want to be don’t don’t be traumatized and don’t try to fix it and
Go to people go to family go to friends go to professionals I’m not a therapist I can only tell you how I have done it my way and any way they can see to get fit just don’t don’t wallow in it just put that foot forward and look look the
Other way and keep going don’t stop everything’s good out there the world needs you you can contribute and you need to and the world needs you to to help us get better please rate and review this podcast on Apple podcasts Spotify or wherever you listen listen ad free with
A Fox News podcast Plus subscription on Apple podcasts and Amazon Prime members can listen to the show adree on the Amazon music app if you have a story or topic you want to hear on the show we’d love to hear from you send us an email at true Crim podcast fox.com
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