Welcome Greek you Nation to episode number 438 of the fraternity foodie podcast I’m your host Mike ion CEO of Greek University I’m a speaker and an author our fifth book just came out it’s called perseverance and how to be a great fraternity or sorority alumnus so
Go and pick that up on Amazon or Barnes & Noble today we call these episodes the fraternity foodie podcast because there is nothing like great food to bring college students together fun fact there are a ton of dysfunctional companies out there I’ve worked for a few myself and
Perhaps that’s why I find myself as an entrepreneur most days for me it’s very frustrating when a company says that they have certain corporate values on their website and then the employees don’t share those values in the things that they say and the things that they do since many
Of our listeners are going to be choosing a company that they are going to work for after graduation I felt it was really important to talk about dysfunctional companies today and how we can identify them before we even start working there so our next guest is Joel
Dubin he is a retired cyber security consultant turned humor author and a foreign language is Enthusiast The Seven Habits of Highly dysfunctional companies was inspired by stupidity he observed at companies who sabotage not only their security but their business as well the seven habits are the most common
Problems he saw at screwed up companies around the world this isn’t a typical Business book it’s a humor book poking fun at office politics bureaucracy and toxic work environments all ingredients of successful dysfunctional companies it’s sort of an anti- Manual of how not to run a business Joel is the author of
Both editions of the little black book of computer security and has an MBA from the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University and a master’s degree in journalism from Colombia University some great schools welcome to the show Joel great thank you thanks for having me Michael this is gonna be a lot
Of fun I tell you what I’ve certainly worked for my share of dysfunctional company oh sure we all have I’m sure many see I can see bruises on your forehead from banging your head against the wall Michael so I oh my God you have no idea I’ve literally spent
Weeks banging my head against the wall saying why is this happening this is totally ridiculous so I’m glad that you’re finally shining a light on just how ridiculous some of these companies can be but before we get to companies I like talking about colleges you decided on Northwestern University for underg
Graduate experience you even stayed there for your MBA so why did you decide that Northwestern was the right place for you couple reasons Northwestern first of all is a great school it’s a top school and it happened to be at my doorstep because I live right in Chicago
Tell our audience like what was the impetus what made you want to write this book called The Seven Habits of Highly dysfunctional companies well I think in some ways it was personal therapy that once you know I kind of got up got up and and Gras grasp from from Air when I
Retired you know I needed to do something to kind of get it all of my system kind of a tell all kind of a book but um when I when you mentioned that you know I worked for dysfunctional companies beside working for some dysfunctional companies it was also many
Of the companies that I observed and I think you hit the nail on the head Michael when you mentioned that you know there’s so many times we see these companies that say one thing and do another and I have a whole chapter in there about how poor communication is
The way to effectively is the way to effectively uh uh spread the message you know you see i’ sit in in a Lobby and I’d see these mission statements and I understand you know Business Leaders tell you you got to have a focus in a mission statement I got it makes sense
But I’d sit there and I’d read these mission statements a they’re written in corporate speak cook and then when you go in the door the toxic crap that you deal with doesn’t match with you know on these mission statements so for me partly therapeutic partly you know
What I observed and I kind of want to spread the message and I think for your listeners who are basically you know some stad University students kind of ready to go out there and attack the world I think I can give you some tips about what to do I think that’s great
And we certainly talk about that in fraternity and sorority life too I mean you know all of these fraternities and sororities they have stated values and those stated values are things like scholarship and Service uh Brotherhood and Sisterhood truth and Justice all of these things but like we have to
Actually do what we say we’re going to do otherwise who’s going to want to join a group of Hypocrites I mean right right right ex exactly you know so yeah companies is really the same thing so I guess for the college students who are listening right now and they’re trying
To figure out which company they’re going to work for after graduation how can they evalu their potential employers and figure out which ones are dysfunctional before they commit okay this is what I recommend um I was not uh in a fraternity when I when I was at
College and you know I have a big support for fraternities but I had a lot of friends that were in fraternities and what I noticed is they built built networks and they built friendships that lasted for a lifetime right so some of my friends now even years years later
After being in school they talk about their fraternity or sorority you know buddies and and and they built these networks so my what my advice is that go beyond things like the glass door social media use your Greek Network find people inside those companies that you can talk
To directly so they can give you the straight the straight DP so that’s my recommendation dig deep talk to people and see exactly what their impressions are if they say oh god I’ve been here for 10 years it’s it’s it’s horrible I can’t get to first base with my boss
We’re constantly in me meetings I don’t know what what’s going on it you know then you know that’s kind of a signal maybe this is a a company to to avoid one of the ways that I mentioned in the book of how to evaluate a company the humorous side I call it the
Density ratio which is determining the number of within a square area you know of the office within a number of cubicles you know so you can get an idea of how high the ADR is at a company you know based on talking maybe to some of your your Greek buddies uh and and
And and and networking and networking that way some companies some Industries you know I was in Consulting you know it’s and uh it’s very high pressure high stress a lot of turnover a lot of egos kind of battling each other people building their little kingdoms within
The company I I I noticed um so those companies and like Professional Services law accounting Consulting they tend to have what I call High adrs you know but again each company is different and I don’t want to be bashing all companies in general talk talk talk to people
Personally don’t just rely on social media or these rating websites like glass door which is very good but you know you see kind some Oddball comments in those better to talk to people directly yeah I completely agree and as a college student it’s actually really easy to use LinkedIn and locate people
That work for the company that you’re trying to get to and especially if you are a fraternity brother or a sorority sister um and you know what just even just just a college student reaching out you should be reaching out all the time because when a college student Reach Out
Reaches out to me for whatever the reason I’m LinkedIn as an example um I know that they have nothing to sell me they have nothing right and all they’re doing is trying to get more information so that way they can make better decisions about their career or where
They go to work so because they have nothing to sell me then I am very likely to actually say yes to that meeting now the meeting might not be the same day you might have to wait a week or two because my schedule is full but I will
Eventually talk to you and maybe set up a zoom with you so you really should ask these Professionals for maybe 15 minutes explain to them you’re a college student you have nothing to sell you’re just trying to learn about the industry or about the company that they work for and
I’m promising you that more likely than not this person will say yes to you as a college student and if they don’t Michael that’s a signal to you too that this might not be a good good environment and Beyond the Greek Network itself which is usually a strong
Powerful Network just use your alumni name you know I can use my Northwestern MBA for example go in the directory and even if it’s someone that’s from a different year you know different industry or something like that I can say Hey you know I’m I went to Kellogg
Such and such year I’m looking for information about X can you help me out so yeah use that Network you got a powerful uh background there to work with absolutely let’s talk a little bit about customer service I really that customer service is the key to very
Successful companies uh you know I have a big following on Tik Tok right now and I’m very frustrated at their customer service there are some areas of functionality that aren’t working and they’ve basically outsourced all of their customer service to other countries and it’s like and and working
It’s I’m getting no results I’ve had an open case with Tik Tock for like four months four months and it still hasn’t been resolved the original case is still open and still unresolved and I’m you know have huge you know number of followers on Tik Tok and I’m a huge
Personality there so why are so many companies that are supposed to be good that are supposed to be leading the way why are so many companies bad at customer service so I have a whole chapter in this like I call it habit five human contact with customers is
Prohibited and basically I think part of it is automation now I get the picture you know a large company they may get millions and millions of calls they have to do something but how many times have we called and you get an incomprehensible menu and there’s no way
To get to a human being right and you’re punching keys and maybe you’ll get the right sequence of keys to what you want I call that menu Bingo you know but you know basically I also say that a dysfunctional company that shouldn’t be allowed because you know it’s too clear
It’s too simple I guess the in a nutshell in one word it’s really it’s partly automation you know and it’s I think it may get worse as we have like AI we have these Bots where you think you’re actually talking to a person and you’re not but yes customer service I
Have a lot of horror stories in there and I talk a lot about it um in the book how to improve it it’s it’s it’s it’s difficult because you know you say you have an open case with Tik Tock for four months I mean that you know that that’s
That’s fairly typical you know I again I have a lot of personal stories I had when my father died uh and we had to change the credit cards and I and I will not name the credit card company I was on the phone for an hour with the credit
Card company to transition the card to me and my mother well my mother had dementia she’s kind of squat on the phone I says mom just say yes then I get a letter from the credit card company saying we’re sorry to hear of the death
Of Joel Dubin I called him up and I said I’m Joel Dubin I’m still alive but I think you’re trying to kill me you know so um I think the answer is just you know to kind of have less Automation and maybe make streamline those those menus
You know those are the kinds of things that it’s a it’s it’s definitely a huge problem it’s a big issue it is and it’s it’s only going to get worse with those AI Bots that you’re talking about uh whether it be on the website or you know
Perhaps even over the phone I mean it’s really scary where that all could go um you know one of the reasons why I’ve stayed away from large companies in my career is because all of the layers of bureaucracy in many of these institutions it’s so hard to get things
Done is there any way to eliminate all of that bureaucracy the overlap the lengthy decisionmaking at these companies to make them more efficient without showing a ton of people that door right well again not to be in defense of bureaucracy after I bash it in my book but in a very large
Organization you have to have some order you have to have some sort of divisions of labor and some sort of organization so just like I mentioned to your listeners you know as as students kind of building a network you know to learn about the company once you’re in a
Company build an internal Network you know get to know this one that one any way that you can meet people and not people just your department or in your functional area you know get to know people maybe in accounting or in legal or in marketing or whatever you know
Let’s say you’re having a problem with an expense report you’ll know who to talk to and you can actually talk to someone directly rather than going through this large bureaucracy again it’s unavoidable and you know in the book I don’t really give an answer of you know what to do about bureaucracy
But one of the humorous things I mentioned there that the real business is done in the in the break rooms and in the bathrooms you know and what I meant by that is there’s these underground networks which often work within these companies and I would say build them and
Use them that’s the best way to do it I like it that is good advice how do we eliminate all of these unnecessary meetings that we all know that could be an email it seems like this problem is extremely common yeah it is very very common so um I have seen people
Literally go from meeting to meeting to meeting they never leave their desk and you know I put in the book there I recommend that they have their headphones surgically attached to their head because it takes too much time to take them on and off and I also talk
About in their meeting police you know people that are in the hallways with armbands that say MP that will assign you to meetings because I have a chapter in there says if you are not in a meeting be assigned to one yeah meetings are definitely one of the bane of the
Existence of of of many companies So my answer is be be smart and and and be be assertive and put your foot down one of the things I talk about I call them tween twwm the weekly meeting again sure there are certain types of projects where you actually have to meet each
Week to Milestone and so on I get it but then there’s been plenty of what I call tweens they’re right in the middle of my my damn day I’m in the middle of something else gotta go to the meeting I go to the meeting nothing new they’re talking about their pets they’re talking
About their kids they’re talking about their vacation you know just say I have nothing to report this week let’s cancel the meeting this week you know so kind of try to put your foot down where possible again you know you may not have control over these things but meetings
Are have their whole whole culture all to themselves you know you know I make a joke about how you know when you go see a company and you see you might see people in a meeting in a conference room that have been in there for days without
Food and water you know you may see people getting nauseous in these meetings you know I talk about a whole thing where um you know when when when employees when when you started a company I call it employee disorientation you know getting you ready you know one of one of the
Survival kits in there part of the survival kit is you know like the the laser pointer right so you can point point during the meeting and then I say vomit bags in case you get nauseous during the meeting I was nauseous during many meetings so I used to think about
That quite a bit so yeah so yeah the the short answer is the serious you know you know if the meeting isn’t necessary if you have the power cancel it you know you don’t have to have so here’s another offthe cuff question is your favorite TV show the office and your favorite movie
Office Space yes yes yes and yes yes and yes how did I know it’s so inter yeah how’ you know those are really classic they they are very clever but I think my book is it it plays on that theme but I think my book is unique you know it’s a little
Little little different so yeah absolutely so you know retention is something that a lot of universities are struggling with and certainly retention is an issue for some of the best companies in the country so how can companies not only hire the right people and bring the right people in but also
Keep their best employees instead of losing them okay so here here’s kind of a general question and um not to sidestep it but kind of look at the whole thing of of HR just as I as we talked about customer service the problem is automation HR is very similar
So you see a company you like you go to the website you see a job there’s a job posting go that’s perfect that’s the job for me you click on the link it asks you to fill out some long form right and then attach a resume whatever you submit it
You get some sort of a cryptic email saying you know your resume is blah blah blah blah blah blah blah right so uh and then you never hear from them right so what happens is companies look for keywords in resumés and a creative resume is going to be missed so creative
Individual so I mentioned the book one way to to get your resume attention of course uh jokingly just put the word somewhere in the middle and then your resume will be picked and put into the the pile to be reviewed but but seriously it it is an issue and again
Getting back to what I mentioned you know earlier in answer to your earlier question network network network so what I say is let’s say you see a job you’ve already networked you know your Greek buddy right is in there from your Greek system or he’s related to you know he’s
A he went to a frat he was a fraternity brother from someone else that you knew right you say hey I’m applying for this job often those internal people can get your resume in and get it reviewed so you may still have to go through that process right online but at least your
Resume will be will be reviewed because you know Joe or Sally within the company will say hey I know this guy I went to school with him give him a look you know and recom and they often a lot of these companies have incentives you know they’ll have a way where they’ll pay
Like a little bonus to the employee for bringing someone in but HR is kind of another Rat’s Nest like with customer service because I think a lot of good people um are missed uh because of these automated systems and uh anything out of the ordinary that might be creative that
Might be useful gets lost again try to do your internal networking first I would say honestly most of the jobs I’ve gotten the past several jobs almost all through Linkedin through people that I knew you know I never got anything through oh I like this company and that
Looks like a good job to send it in you never hear you know it’s I think some of these resumes disappear into outer space yeah you’re right about that I think every college student should have a LinkedIn account I’m always surprised when I start talking to a college
Student I ask them do you have a LinkedIn account and they’re like no to me I mean that is like the first place you got to start is have a professional photo create a LinkedIn account and use a whole bunch of keywords in your bio that relate to your industry and the job
That you’re seeking and then you know know just fairly regularly go on there and post in your feed something that you learn that week within your major or something you learn you know within your college student organization that relates to the job that you want and put
That out in The Ether and as you start building up your network people are going to read that stuff and you become the expert in that Niche you know I think maybe some college students and I can’t speak for college students but just my thought is off the cuff is that
You know they they look at all these uh profiles they see people with these long pet Rees and these long resumes oh gee I’m not even in the Work World what I put up there well what you can put up there is your skills you can get recommendations because you know you
Even though I recommend my peers my peers recommend me get someone say Hey you know uh Sally really has a good uh background in network security for it you know I’ve worked with her and so on um again very good post you should always be training uh one of the things
That you should always be looking at I may be digressing a bit but you’re your your students in in schools they should not be looking at or thinking of the company as an end in itself because even the most powerful CEO could be kicked out the door you could be laid off at
Any moment for any reason at any time you should never think that you’re going to be comfortable at a company so the two things you should always be doing is always networking go to conferences go to classes upgrade your skills and always be aware be prepared have a
Resume updated regularly just in case the parachute drops you know you think some of these CEOs are so powerful and some of them are very powerful sales dip one quarter the board says screw it we’re getting him out of here right or him or her out of there and they’re gone
They may have been a competent CEO but sales did Wall Street wasn’t happy you know they’re gone you you know as I say the the corporate Angel of Death could strike at at any moment so you should always be prepared and always kind of have a back door yeah don’t look at the
Company as the end yeah I like that always networking I think that’s incredibly important for college students to hear and really digest because you know the worst time to network is when you really need a job you know the time to network would be like a week before graduation like no
You should have been committed to this you know for all four years while you’re in college talking to professors talking to employers building out your network on LinkedIn posting on a regular basis um and networking in your industry in your Niche and meeting people that are potential employers if you wait until a
Week before graduation you’ve missed the boat and Linkedin makes those features easy to use nowadays I remember years ago pre- LinkedIn I lost a job in a morning and because I was I was really diligent about networking that afternoon I was already interviewed I had I was
Calling people and I was already out ready to to to rock and roll yeah good for something to think about yeah you know a lot of companies now um you know when we talk about the employees many of them would prefer I think to be remote
Um just because of you know traffic and the cost of going to work every day and the wear and tear on your car on your body uh you know I gotta you know spend a whole bunch of money on clothing for you know to be in the office what are
Your thoughts on remote employees do you think America should continue to head in this direction of remote employees after the pandemic or are we doomed to go back to the office because our company spent so much money on real estate yeah so I I
Have a lot of thoughts on this and a lot that I discussed in the book in fact the book was actually almost almost done a couple years ago and then covid hit and everybody was remote and I had to all add all this stuff about being remote
And so one of the things I say dysfunctional companies always put their offices in inconvenient locations right so you have employees that are communicating and commun commuting not communicating they are trying to communicate but commuting to the office you know and they’re just fresh and crisp after being in traffic for two
Hours and and ready to rock and roll so the honest answer Michael is that I think really is a hybrid environment or depending on the industry and the employee there are certain jobs that do require a presence in an office based on either the industry I’ve heard like for
Example investment bankers say you know it’s the body language of the of the parties involved in the deal that are they are more just as important as all the numbers and all the legal pieces of the deal and and and you have to kind of see what people are doing and there’s
Other jobs where it doesn’t matter at all now the last company that I worked at before I retired didn’t have an office in Chicago so I was entirely remote so when covid hit and they started closing the offices it didn’t really impact me because I was already
Remote and you know I was one of the most productive employees I personally preferred to be remote you know I found in the office I was being distracted a lot of the things that are in the book you know for socializing activities people come by and want to chat at your
Cubicle and I could focus at home other people at home they got the dog they got the screaming kids they got this they got that and they can’t really focus so there’s a lot of distraction so a it depends on the individual B it it depends on the industry and I don’t kind
Of go say Oh we must go remote or we must go uh you know in the office my answer would be flexibility I think what’s the wrong approach is where a company kind of blanket says You must be in the office we’re going to cut all
Remote work out well hey you know things happen you know you know also you know thing life happens you know maybe you got to take a sick kid to to the doctor all of a sudden right or the car breaks down or something like that so you got
To be you got to be flexible So my answer is a hybrid environment and none of this Draconian you must be in the office you know that’s that’s not that’s the wrong approach you kind of have to look at Case by case Company by company individual by individual I have a lot of
Jokes in there about you know I say that remote employees must be closed right you know you know and they should always be clo even from the waist down because in case they accidentally stand up you know and you see them in their under these you know not not cool at all I
Talk about you know when I was working remote and I did all these security assessments I can’t tell you how many dogs would bark in the back the screaming kids and I say in the book about how the the barking dogs and the screaming kids actually add more
Information than the people in the meeting you know that’s very clever I like that I think you’re you nailed it I think it’s Flex ability I think that is the answer going forward um you know listen you’re a Chicago guy so you’ll appreciate this I mean God bless State Farm you know in
Bloomington Illinois uh you know I’ve been to Bloomington I went to visit my best friend who works for their headquarters God bless it but it’s nothing but you know agriculture it’s Farms right uh there’s there’s really nothing going on there yeah I’ve been there I know yeah and so like it’s a
Beautiful facility has you know tons of employees there in Illinois which is great I love that there are big employer but I think why they’re successful is the flexibility they allow their employees to work from home a certain number of days there are actually some employees that report to that office of
State Farm in Bloomington Illinois and they’ll actually just fly in they’ll basically work there for a couple of weeks and then they’ll fly back home and spend another couple of weeks at home and so that way they’re allowed to essentially keep their family intact if they’re in schools in another area of
The country that is a little bit more uh how should we say populated um then then they can still make that work so I think the reason why they’re successful is the flexibility and I appreciate that about stor yeah you know so I talk a lot also
About Road Warriors which are not really remote employees but there’s they have to be connected you know on the road but there are certain the nature of jobs where people are out constantly you know on the road and they have to meet meet customers this is distinct from the
Customer service where I say you shouldn’t be talking to customers you know there you know there’s certain like for instance as in a consultant I had to often go out to the site of a company you know I was partially Road Warrior at times uh in my career as well so yeah
Flexibility is definitely the key I agree I think that’s the way forward so hopefully the employers will listen to uh your advice there um and they’ll be flexible and I think that’s the way to attract younger employees because I do think that gen z um they appreciate you
Know being able to work from home every now and then they appreciate maybe having the comfort of a pet uh at home uh while they’re in the office it’s comforting to them um and I’m not saying that it’s the you know this is the law of the land I’m not saying that
Everybody is qualified to work from home I can see that if you um you know are very tempted to go and take a nap every day or play video games then maybe you’re not suited to be a remote employee right right so yeah and make sure those pets are trained to
Contribute to the to the meetings that’s right we expect smart pets that can contribute to our Zoom meetings not the pets that have nothing to contribute please I mean I had I had a company I was doing an assessment and this woman had her cat was going back and forth in
Front of the screen you know and we had to put in that particular report we had to put the names of everybody we interviewed and I was I was gonna ask her what’s the name of the cat I’m gonna put in the report and say advisor to the
Team eat mascot hilarious if nothing else it just made the meeting a little bit more fun and a little bit more enjoyable for everybody so all right this is good so so we do love good food here at the fraternity foodie podcast and I do get to Chicago very often there
Is some wonderful food in Chicago so where should I go these days for a great meal in Chicago okay well it depends what you like Chicago has everything every possible type of cuisine as well as every ethnic type of Cuisine it’s a very very ethnic City so kind of on the
High end if you like really good steakhouses downtown there’s the cut yes which is in River North you know and then there’s Gibsons which is really really a famous uh steakhouse right um if you like pizza Chicago’s famous for its Pizza there’s lumel nattis which has deep dish they also have restaurants
Downtown and uh Italian God I could we could have a whole separate podcast just about the million Italian restaurants a lot of Greek restaurants Middle Eastern uh you name it then also plain plain old American food you know hot dogs and hamburgers you know there’s Portillos here in Chicago large chain Notch hot
Dogs hamburger Chicago was also known for its hot dogs you know the Oscar Meyer facility has an outlet here in Chicago uh on clyborne Avenue where you can get a great hot dog and and shrimp and uh fish a lot of fish places so yeah a lot there but yeah downtown high-end
Expensive but good good quality steak places the cut and Gibsons are two great restaurants Downtown Pizza l m natis absolutely Joel knows his food right away I can tell he know what’s going on in terms of good food in Chicago he named all the right restaurants so
That’s that’s how you know he’s a real person from Chicago and not somebody who’s just visiting and Portillos by the way is absolutely amazing too they have a restaurant there uh in Bloomington Illinois near the state do office and I got a chance to go and check out
Portillo it was delicious very very good yeah they’re great chain yeah that’s a great chain very good food all right so if our listeners if they want to pick up your book or they want to engage with you perhaps about speaking opportunities on a college campus to talk about dysfunctional companies where should
They go to connect with you okay my book is on Amazon so you know the seven habits of highly dysfunctional companies uh as well uh I can be reached at dysfunctional company at yahoo.com perfect so I’m still in the process of setting up all my social media because this is all brand new
Brand new book but uh yeah that’s the way I can be reached uh travel right now a little bit difficult but just contact me I love it if if you have questions or you’re interested glad to help your people really good Joel this the name of
The book on Amazon it’s called The Seven Habits of Highly dysfunctional companies go and pick up that book today it is fun uh it is a humorous read and of course in any good joke there’s always some truth underlying the really oh yeah yeah this is how not to run a company
So so I really enjoyed this thank you so much for being with us today thank you for having me of course and to our audience if you enjoyed this conversation with Joel I want you to like it and I want you to share with other college students that need to read
The book and uh thank you so much for joining us we’ll see you on another episode of the fraternity foodie podcast thanks so much bye for now
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