Welcome back to the Masonic Round Table a weekly program where masons from around the world get together to talk about Masonic news and opinions in a friendly and social manner as a reminder the thoughts and opinions expressed here are solely the opinions of participants and do not represent any Grand on
Statements or positions make sure you keep a conversation it’s open for the public and on the level to interact with us we love seeing you live every Thursday night it’s still Thursday uh on Facebook or YouTube land and um the chats are always fun we can’t get to
Every chat but just do know your chats may show up in the show so check yourself as always if you can’t catch us live catch the replay or in your favorite podcasting app my name is John RAR I’m a past Master of the Patriot lodge number
1957 and I’ll hand it over to Lake Comer Joe Martinez for his introduction I so was not ready because you never call on me first I like it that’ll teach you apologize yes Joe Martinez back from the land Far Far Away uh I missed everybody I think I’ve
Been gone a little bit right um yeah totally miss y’all miss being here so Jazz to be here Joe Martinez pmas things and stuff um I did want to and and John I think we talked about this the other day can you please repeat the disclaimer about our thoughts and opinions um
Because certain people like to think that they do have an opinion so please go through that disclaimer again um just to be clear they the thoughts and opinions expressed here are solely the opinions of the participants and do not represent any gr GL Grand Lodge statements positions authorities recommendations influences none of
That even if you are a part of the Grand Lodge Jason we are the Grand Lodge we are the Grand Lodge we are Grand Lodge right that’s that’s and we still don’t represent them right so yeah so this is us not y’all so anyway Joe Martinez super glad to be here miss you
Love you my office is a mess I know back yeah back in the Martinez layer I love it yeah but the movers did a terrible job reorganizing like they don’t know how I organize things so it’s just as you can see the important thing is hot mess did the skulls survive the skulls
Were wrapped in bubble wrap so they and they were not touched so they’re good they’re just somewhere somewhere good to hear awesome yes brother Richards how’s it going good how are you great good I am also back from the land of Far Far Away um swimming with dolphins and you know
Other exciting dangerous Adventures so Canada yes absolutely um I’m a yet which I love which I can’t wait to hear more about yes let’s see so um to pay the bills want to thank all the patrons who support the show you guys are amazing for keeping a decades worth
Of banic Education or over 467 episodes on the air for many years to come so thank you very much for that thank you and if you want to join our secret squirrel Facebook group head over to patreon.com slthe Masonic Roundtable it’s fun much fun has had we
Talk about Chris we talk about Chris a lot we do oh yeah but see if he chips in money he’s gonna see all that so that’s fine that’s fine I think it’s great pay people’s stuff you know more money more better content especially authors well not through Amazon not through that one
Store I won’t mention again yes yes not a sponsor and by the way thank you for all three of you for purchasing books in the past so thank you for doing your part thank you for signing my books of course yes you have the most weird s signatures
And and inscriptions and books I have ever seen sir but I I yeah that’s what thank goodness for keyboards and typewriters because I cannot write no man I was talking about the content my wife read your incription and she was like who the hell is Chris and I’m like
He’s a dear dear dear dear friend she was like was he having a coma while writing this it was very very sensual it was very sensual yes well I mean you gave you gave me the best book inscription I’ve ever gotten on the uh the Albert Pike manuscript that you
Inscribe to a a non-scottish right Mason that’s right shocking development it’s shocking what it is it really tarot card Of you know what time it is yeah that the past conversation was pretty much over anyway it’s getting a little dry so all right tarot card of the week today we are bringing back the Kawai tarot 78 card deck of magic and cute they captured me oh so well all right is this
Didn’t say haggardly what’s up this is the esoteric portion of the of the meeting h i mean esoteric cardom Mantic what’s that cam Mantic cam Mantic there we go all right and uh today we have the tower no um it wouldn’t surprise me we’ve got the hanged man hanging loose
Nice so and actually technically I drew It reversed oh the upright man yeah the hanged hanged man yes the unhung man the unhung man yes the hanged man focusing on a shift in perspective Letting Go surrendering yes right go with the flow K SRA whatever will be will be yes yeah
So that’s that’s an interesting one because as I as I have my upside down I have my skull pillow upside down and Jolly Roger in distress Jason I was trying to even out the pillow while I was away on vacation okay uh you’re still muted Joe for all
Your snarky comments we we’re not hearing single one I said I don’t think Pirates flipped the Jolly Roger upside down when they were in trouble I think it was kind of you’re screwed sorry either way nice to know you would you please let us pirate you so yes stuff uh
Going with the flow let’s talk about Lafayette so um yeah this is this is really fascinating because I we I know that um the Marquee de Lafayette was a Freemason that’s that’s about the extent of my uh my knowledge because um he’s done some great stuff from for the
Revolutionary War but I want to learn more about all the research that you’ve done brother Bry on the man the myth the Mason and what he did while he was over here in the Americas and his apron too want to hear about his apron oh man here
We go did I tell you the story by the way then they posted the what was it Mount Vernon posted the uh uh I think it was close to you know his initi Washington’s initiation the quote unquote Lafayette apron and I posted something in one of the Instagram you
Know like responses like hey this isn’t actually real there’s the history is tenuous blah blah blah and someone replied back to my message well clearly you’re not a Mason and or he said something to the effect of like oh well you clearly don’t travel or you’ve never
Traveled East so what the hell do you know and he what do you know what do you know chis he used some unchristian language oh call me an idiot and I was like oh that’s good I should probably just take a screenshot of that and be like here’s here’s how I’m gonna start
My presentation today I like the people who like start start fights on Twitter like with the author of the book that they’re complaining about yeah I was I was about to say if uh if you avert your gaze and switch over to the uh from the spoken social media to the the video
Social media and go to Tik Tok that’s literally however treemason is on Tik Tok yeah well you’re not high enough to gek so shout things and yell at you and yeah and then do like stuff like this once in a while and yeah oh man I love
It yeah so yeah that’s how I that’s how I’m like okay even even Mason don’t know so anyway I I I introduced the topic of Lafayette how I got involved with Lafayette which was as I was writing my first book the one that we covered in a in a previous interesting podcast that
Perhaps people should go back to and listen um there was a section on when Lafayette visited the United States and when he went to the White House and when he met with John Quincy Adams and this all interesting activity that happened in the white house and I thought that’s
Really interesting because Adams would eventually go on to not like the Masons and so I I kept that little kernel of Lafayette visiting the White House as one of my Masonic interactions in the book and so later on as I was learning more about it I thought well what is out
There I’m curious to know let me go find stuff in herum let me go find in the Phils let me go find in fraternal riew let me go find in all these different sources and see okay I’d like to learn a little bit more about lafette I didn’t
Really know a lot about lafette when I when I started this book about three years ago and so uh I was shocked and surprised to see that there was not a lot of information on lafayette’s activities that was sort of in One Source or or you had to go to all these
Different sources you had it is hard you’d be surprised you’d think like a guy like George Washington you’d think that lafayette’s biography and his history has been picked over and I’m not the first one writing this kind of stuff some smarter Mason before me 50 60 years
Ago would have written that which is almost identical to what you said he exist time in Memorial yes what did you say well I’m saying it’s almost identical to what you said about the uh White House and and Freemasons it’s like no one’s really put all this stuff together there’s like smatterings of
Things all over the place and so like I’m I’m glad you took it upon yourself to kind of yeah condense this stuff into something that’s digestible yes I was gonna say Chris I mean I I think where my first thought goes is you don’t have the a lot of Americans
Real don’t realize how important Lafayette was to the American Revolution so we naturally just gravitate our brains towards George Washington and we build a memorial and we pay a dollar a year in our dues for it but like he was pretty high up there in terms of uh functioning how we conducted our
Revolution and how we actually got the French to come on over and be on our team and actually win the damn thing so and but I don’t think we talk about that in history class and in high schools and stuff like that not enough no yeah
That’s that’s a very good point I think for most Americans if you if you remember anything from your history class in high school that you you you may remember that Lafayette was a young guy came to the United States supported George Washington if you perhaps went to
College and you took history or perhaps had to take some American history or maybe French history as part of your you know your class curriculum maybe you learned a little bit more about Lafayette going back to France getting involved in the the French Revolution um and then for most
Masons maybe they have there’s a presentation somewhere maybe there’s a short talk bulletin maybe there’s a you know a small little article in some old paper about it I know that there’s an article in the Knights Templar the old kns Templar Magazine from like 19 I want
To say 50s 60s or 70s um that covered Lafayette but again not not even focusing on his masonry focusing on what he did in the United States in in in the Revolutionary War so that’s where I started from when I when I was on was working on this manuscript to go okay I
I I I start doing the same thing that I did basically copy pasting what I did with the White House the Freemasons book just doing I’m going to use the same format for the Lafayette I’m going to go through every book I’m going to go through journals I’m going to go through
Articles I’m going to go through you know proceedings I’m going to go through everything that’s Masonic that I could find and non-masonic like you know stuff at the Library of Congress journals Diaries people Associated to him we even reached out to Masons and non-masons in France to help me pull some information
On you know his activities and so I start the book the first chapter isn’t even on in America and and that’s really the focus of my book is lafayette’s activities in America the first is really just a nice General summation of what was going on here’s a guy who’s 16
17 year old 17 year old he comes to the United States he’s got he’s got family you know he’s part of this old Rich family right in France his parents and his lineage fought and served in wars and fought against the British and and and the different you know European
Countries so he certainly had a history his of military service you know his family was one of the oldest families of France that can trace its lineage back down you know to some old you know Holy Roman Empire and so he certainly had that gravitas that that uh that
Prominence comes to the United States in fact his family and and the government French government tries to stop him to come to the United States they forbade him from going to the United States but he does it anyway commissions a ship goes over to the United States lands
Charleston goes up to Philadelphia comes with papers from with Benjamin Franklin’s you know support hey there’s this young guy very eager wants to contribute and the Continental Congress is like no thanks we’ve got plenty of these guys and he’s and he goes well actually I’ll do this for free and they
Goes sold you are now a major general welcome well he even paid for the ship out of his own pocket right money ammunitions everything so he’s like actually I’m I’m here I’m doing this graus he was all for the calls yeah cou board and I’ll tell you yeah any whenever you whenever Mason
Hears I’ll do it for free they’ll take it so so he then basically becomes a part of Washington’s Inner Circle his his command he serves as his assistant he not literally but he he is within the he is within Washington’s Inner Circle he meets or visit with Washington really
One of the earliest interactions he has with Washington he visits the camp Washington’s military camp and AC according to you know interactions and eyewitnesses they say well Washington was a little embarrassed by the condition of the camp and he said you know this is this is how we are this is
How we’re operating and Lafayette said Hey listen I’m paraphrasing here but he said I’m here to learn I’m not here to take control of this like some other you know European generals came for for for Glory for money he was like I’m just here to learn I’m happy to help whatever
You think is best I’m happy to contribute and so it it establishes a nice rapport with Washington and then they basically moved move on from there and during a brief Furlow he goes back to France he really engages with the French government the monarchy to try to help support the
Americans he helps successfully Lobby the French and he helps basically bringing the French and rosham and and ammunitions and the fleet over to the United States it’s Lafayette it’s Lafayette who pins Cornwallis in Yorktown in Virginia and basically holds Cornwallis stuck in Yorktown with enough time to bring Washington over to
Yorktown to to lead that last Siege in Yorktown and with the French Fleet basically stopping corn Wallace’s retreat they all sto the war right then and there I mean lafayette’s part of that process um he’s part of the war he’s you know they it’s often said by military historians and American you know
Historians that Lafayette Lafayette kmir pansi who basically created and established the uh the uh um I just had it the the Cavalry that’s the word Cavalry and uh Von stubin who basically set up and drilled American soldiers and set up and established the discipline of fighting those three individuals in
Addition to George Washington basically saved the war and and and established the United States yeah no I mean I I think I I love where you started with it and and I love the comment you made about young Lafayette like he had no delusions of being in charge or being in The Secret
Circle of anything right like what they I think they gave him an honorary uh generalship at the beginning but they didn’t give him any troops um if I remember correctly and I think it was what six weeks into the revolution he got into his first battle and got
Wounded and then brandy brandy wine that’s right and um but he sat there and he did exactly what you said he learned he stopped looked and listened and he learned stuff and by the end of it he was commanding divisions of troops and was you know one half of that pincer
That that trapped corn Wallace and ended the the revolution so I mean it’s it’s really interesting and how old is he by that time what 26 years old yeah super young he’s very young yeah he’s he’s he’s certainly he’s in his early 20s now imagine us what we were doing in our
Early 20s but see that that blows mind because every time you see him like hollywoodized you know he’s got the powdered wig and everything and in the pool suit but it’s always played by like some 50-year-old dude right and it just blows my mind how young he really
Actually was and how inexperienced at least he was in the eyes of of the Americans oh yeah and by the way he you know it’s not just that he who’s there to listen and he really do much he he contributed his financial you know his own money into this game it wasn’t like
He was there for free the French government didn’t pay for him to come there he went and did it himself he contributed himself the you know the Munitions and the monies he had the money to do it so so anyway as we as we move on to this I think that’s where the
American side of the story ends for Lafayette and what I mean to say is most Americans know that story and then you know he says goodbye goes back to Paris or goes back to France rather and then that’s where most Americans will say okay that’s that’s it with Lafayette and
So that’s where I went further with the story right and so here’s this young guy mid 20s you you know we all we’re we’re older gentlemen so we know when you see a guy in this mid 20s he’s about to conquer the world he’s conquered the world already back as a yeah that’s
Right uh which one of us has our AARP card anyway um goes back and now is hailed as a hero and is hit and I I call it hit by the wall that is the French Revolution and so here he is thinking well the Americans have figured it out here’s how
You do it here’s how to set it up here’s the process we can we can try to take the principles and values and things that they’ve done and we can try to replicate it the problem was he was stuck this was a different animal this was a completely different the American
Revolution was not the French Revolution I think Joe’s raising her hand I’ll stop here yes Dr Ry question um yes so yeah so so walk us through that because my understanding was that he’s still supported the idea of a monarchy when he went back home um right so
Here’s the problem Lafayette comes back to France and says or again I’m paraphrasing what he wants to do is an incremental shift over to a constitutional monarch in in trying to support both sides right because he’s a member of the monarchy he’s a member of the upper class he
Still wants to be part of the upper class don’t bite the hand that feeds you right he is now but what happens when you try to appease both sides you effectively alienate both sides right the Revolutionary saw him and says get out of here we’re not doing a constitutional monarchy we’re going full
You know full democracy full Republic whatever you want to call it we’re moving towards the abolishment of the monarchy and the other side is saying well wait a minute you know you Mr you know so and so over there you came back you’re one of us you know one of us one
You know you are a me member of the monarchy your family your lineage the money what what are you going to do with your you know they want to abolish us so he gets stuck in the middle he thinks there’s a way to do it he thinks there’s
A way to convert over or to shift the country over but the country is it’s sort of like Le trying to tame a wild animal and all you’ve got is a small piece of rope you’re you’re going to get cut you’re going to get hurt it’s going
To be bloody it’s going to be violent and you may try to get it but you’re going to lose a lot of credibility and that’s what happens Lafayette basically is alienated he he loses political Capital he loses his monetary after returning as a hero returned as a hero
He he is made in the highest positions he is elected to the Estates General he is involved in a lot of the political activities he’s made I think he what was it called the captain General there’s another word for it someone can find it for me but he’s basically in charge of
The security apparatus for Paris and he’s trying to keep these guys from killing each other well unfortunately at one point he has to flee the country there’s a there’s a massacre in his as as leader of these government forces there’s a massacre that occurs at the shambra dears which is this governmental
You know a Government Palace there is a there’s a demonstration he tries to stop the demonstrators his troops uh release fire killing an Untold number of individuals and he basically is you know sentenced he loses political Capital they’re like let’s kill this guy this guy’s not a part of us he should
You know Rose Pierre calls him a traitor labels him a traitor and he basically fle for his life with his family he goes through Northeast of uh into what is now presently uh Belgium he gets captured because meanwhile the French government the new French government this revolutionary government declares war on Austria and
So austrians like well great we’re going to war and so now Lafia gets captured by the austrians in Belgium he is then sent to different prisons and arranged in different prisons and eventually lands in a prison called alm’s prison and he stays there effectively for a 5year duration
Rose Pierre and the the new national government then the government seizes his property the man has no money he loses lrange which is his familial territorial estate the guy has nothing this is where Lafayette is at this point of his life the end so yeah g wiiz well see you
Later guys sucks to be him yeah so so what happens now is after that after his 5-year term who guess who guess who breaks him out of prison walking Phoenix it’s a great movie no I’m it was Napoleon really yes Napoleon basically takes him out or or secure because
Napoleon sends his army through olmutz and basically negotiates to get Lafayette out and here’s and here’s psychotic walking Phoenix going I can have Lafayette join my side I can get the hero of the American Revolution to join me and lafayette’s like I’m out I’m I’ve been stuck here for years you Haven
Helped than he publicly says in the in the in the National Assembly I will not vote to give make Napoleon a consular publicly says it wow and then I think a year later or close to a year later uh Napoleon makes himself Emperor anyway so
Laia’s like I told you mfers this is a problem I’m not getting involved meanwhile he’s trying to get his money back his family back he’s having these issues and so he comes back in in in a terms and he stays relevant in politics in France for a while and he keeps
Trying to slowly and surely trying to move the political Spectrum over into something that’s like a constitutional monarchy but he loses a lot of interest he’s now becoming an old man it’s decades later he’s now in his 60s and he’s just like I’m I’m tired I’m exhausted I’m tired I ultimately failed
I’ve lost money I’ve spent five years in jail this is the guy that we just you know this was a surprise to me when I was doing all this research like I didn’t know any of this this stuff they didn’t tell us this in American history class but he indicates to his he
Indicates to it’s French history Bry well you know French history’s still history still cool crepes are nice anyway um are nice sus are nice anyway he uh he he how do I explain this he basically Intimates to the Americans and the expats in Paris and in France that he’s
Interested in coming back to the United States now this is 18203 this is close to we’re getting close to 50 years from from the anniversary of the American Revolution he’s in his 60s he’s getting close to you know well maybe I should do a a a
Tour a a Goodwill tour and uh so news of that goes over to Washington goes over the capital and the president United States at the time is like this is actually not a bad idea why not bring the last surviving Major General of the American Revolution back to the United
States this this will be a good PR move for everybody well here’s the problem Lafayette doesn’t have any money and in fact he is trying to figure out the process by doing it because he thinking to himself how do I afford going on a national Goodwill tour and if
I’ve got very little money how do I show face to the American public when I can barely pay for anything I can he didn’t even have money to pay he had so much debt that was not paid for that that he was not even allowed to leave the
Continent he wasn’t even allowed to Charter a boat to go to the United States so the American xats Americans basically helped him pay his debts in order to get on the boat to come to United States so if you’re a researcher and you go through all these newspaper
Clippings you’ll hear a term for Lafayette the term is called the nation’s guest that was not just a an honorific term we called it what basically happened was the Americans found out that Lafayette couldn’t pay for this stuff they said listen we will cover your expenses the states will
Cover your expenses we will put you in the nicest hotel s we’ll give you the best carriages you’ll get a military escort you’re not paying for you’re not paying for zip Z you know not a zero wow so that’s why they call him the nation’s guest that’s awesome he accepts great
Another free it’s free great I’ll do it so he leaves like a true Mason like a true well anyway we’ll talk about masonry in a second he um he leaves France in July 1824 he comes to the United States he finally arrives in August 1824 a month later he
Arrives in Staten Island and that begins the Goodwill tour he goes around to all 24 states in the United States the Union at the time he starts in New York and then he takes various campaigns so he’ll he starts in New York he goes up North
For a couple weeks comes down goes into the middle part of the country goes south west up back North and so what do they do they find out you know so in March he accepts he sends James Monroe a letter and says I accept you know let’s
Do this happy to do it I’ll arrange for you know travel in July and we’re off so from March to July things go nuts it’s it’s in the United States people are getting ready Merchants are you know starting to you know starting to write books and start to set up shops and
We’re getting ready for Lafayette to arrive Masonic lodges we’re hosting meetings and and starting to talk about okay what are we going to do because he’s gonna come we sort of have an idea of what his schedule is going to be like because he publishes his schedule States
Ratify in their in their you know or not ratify but pass bills to say okay we’re going to pay for his expenses hear the people that are going to be involved in committees and and that trickles down to little towns you know little shops I mean towns set up these they call them
Committees of arrangement and so they had meetings to talk about okay where are we going to have you know where are we going to have Lafayette live or stay when he’s here for two days who’s going to do the introductions all the logistics around bringing this guy who basically is another George Washington
All the logistics around doing this and so that was one of my favorite parts of the book was going through and seeing all the little ations the gears turning of how these different committees were okay here’s we’re going to do here there’s going to do this here’s the I
Mean it was great if you’re a party planner you’d love this stuff because this is one of the greatest this is one of the greatest events coordinated events uh that ever had occurred and so yeah and and we go through that now um actually I completely forgot about this
But uh John do you want to show maybe one of the slides the first slide here’s a here’s a picture of old man Lafayette around that time this is not this is not the young Cavalier Soldier here he’s not 20 anymore he is not 20 this is a guy
Who went through hell and survived and so here’s what Lafayette looked like around that time when he visited the United States do you mind going to the next slide just to show you and so here’s an example of of of what we what we would have seen he would have visited
The town the town would have created these beautiful you know whatever city or town he was in would have created these beautiful artworks and arches and monial displays they would have the military old Revolutionary War veterans would often need him he would he would you know attend ceremonies public balls
And dinners I mean for a guy who’s in his 70s now going up to 70s his day was packed every single day there was something going on he went to a dinner then he went to a lunch and then he went to an early collation that they called
It and then they went to another dinner and then they went to a late supper I mean the guy was fed it was nuts so if you go on to the next slide you’ll see which is awesome right for kind of getting that Hero’s welcome again here’s
A picture of him arriving and and what I call it I call it a you know the earliest form of the observance of beetle mania this is where people were going nuts in the streets and people were throwing flowers and wishing for Lafayette to sign you know their
Souvenirs and here’s a triumphal Arch that created this is in in Pennsylvania in Philadelphia actually when he arrives in Philadelphia uh in Independence Hall the reporters basically followed him in every step of the way so imagine a huge collection of reporters just following this guy capturing every that happened
And so one of the great things about writing this book was it was actually super easy to get all this information because newspapers captured everything yeah Masons were also reporters and so reporters went into Masonic Lodge halls and meetings and trans described everything that Lafayette and the worful
Master or the grandmas whomever you know whomever wrote so we have a really nice history of all of those but you got to go through all the newspapers to find it you got to go through you know the journals to find it um so it it really
Was one of the great tours and so now we’ll talk a little bit about masonry because I think I think that’s the that’s the so he was a Mason right turns out he was a Mason yeah but the big question is from where so that was one of the Weird
Mysteries of this you’d think a guy like Lafayette you’d think a guy like would tell us when where and when he was initiated as Mason but obviously it’s clear because there’s Masonic records that we could pull from right depends on the Masonic record if you are looking at
One record it would say well Lafayette was initiated during the Revolutionary War in fact he was initiated at Valley Forge at a military Lodge during the winter season there’s sounds good it’s a great story there’s another story that says that Lafayette was initiated in a different military Lodge while around
You know in in New Jersey there’s one in New York there’s one while he was in Virginia all the times all the time all of them maybe they’re all true yeah he just kept getting initiated maybe he’s like uh you know he’s like that one guy at practice you you initiate 10 trillion
Times over and over again it’s like he’ll be our candidate he’ll be our candidate again that’s right and so he he he meets or he gets initiated everywhere every everyone has their own version of lafay at getting initiated now the one the closest thing we have to a good record is all
Right in when he visits the Grand Lodge of Tennessee at one of the Banquets I believe it’s Tennessee he the the grand secretary of the state record in the proceedings that Lafayette mentions that he was initiated before the war before the Revolutionary War so if that’s true then there are two
Regiment lodges traveling lodges that were associated with a military regiment that he was associated with that could have been one of the LOD or one of the groups that he was initiated in we do not have a record of where he was ini so you’re at least trying to match the time
And place of where he could have been with the regiments with the traveling lodges absolutely at that time frame right that’s the best you can do is other without having you know actual Masonic minutes yes that’s right and so again there there Areo I mean there there are great Masonic related stories
To Lafayette he gave Masonic handshakes he gave Jewels he did all these things during the war and after the war but in many of these cases they’re actually very difficult to verify and confirm I think Joe’s hand was I’ll pause there Professor Ry okay okay so you’re saying downgraded I went from
Doctor to Professor go ahead you’re the most eminent ruy Dr philosophy dror philosophy so if the feeling was that he was um initiated before the Revolution would that not have made him 18 or younger he would have been like George Washington initiated slightly earlier than what you would expect that’s right
Irregularly slightly irregularly I’m gonna say slightly if if we follow the rule right if we follow the custom or the belief that he most likely was initiated before the war then that’s true you’re absolutely right yeah because he wouldn’t have been 21 until 1778 so that’s I mean we’re already
Slapping you know Red Coats everywhere absolutely and but then how about I mean because we don’t have the whole issue about recognition and all that as much but still I mean we think these regiments may have been at least regular in the in the uh recognized sense right
We’re not we’re not going off and talking about him being a clandestin Mason necessarily yeah and and to me one of the interesting things was the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania was very curious about his affiliation and in fact in their proceedings before sending him an invitation they they set up a committee
Of past Grand Masters to basically review I think it was pass Grand Masters and some other guys interesting to basically review and see if he was a York Mason a modern or ancient what was his affiliation and so they went through you know a week a couple weeks of
Investigation to say okay before we invite this guy yes he was invited and yes he hung out in New York yes he met the grand masters of New York and New Jersey but before we get him involved in our lodge in our Grand Lodge let’s make
Sure that this guy is legit which I I love that little thing that they actually had to and and by the way they even couldn’t confirm it and so what they did was there was part of the proceeding that says well we’re g to Extended invitation to him but we’re
Still G to try to confirm what his affiliation yeah just cover your eyes during the degree just do one of these and we never know yeah was go was Ben Franklin at that meeting because I mean he got he got screwed when he died right well at this time this is 1820 so
Franklin was already that was long gone by now yeah yeah but I think again it’s that ancient moderns issue certainly in in in Philadelphia or Pennsylvania rather so that that was why that was so important one of the cool things about his Masonic or his tour rather and the
Way that I’ve always pitched this his Grand Tour from 1824 1825 is this is an interesting unique experience because in many ways many of his public activities had a had a consistency here’s the consistency he often met with the government officials first he met with the state Governor he
Met with the state representatives he then often met with the military so he met with you know former Revolutionary War veterans who were alive and then perhaps local militia and and you know the local guys who were there and then the third group often tended to be if
There was a major Masonic president in the city or the town the Masons so it was always those three and I sort of like that idea because that very much that very much mirrored George Washington you know there are very few Statesmen Soldier Masons like George Washington and so in in many instances
The speeches always alluded to that oh you are like George Washington you were a soldier you sacrificed much for your country as a Statesman but you were also a Mason and you know those virtues and things those were the things that guided you and so when you when you sort of
Take a take a step back and look at all these things you sort of see that those three things hit different parts of what they found were very important in society at the time military service Civic service and this idea of improvement through Freemasonry education science philosophy you know
All all the things that we talk about so did he remain active um oh yes very much so so during so during this Grand Tour he he mostly was uh he mostly hit every Grand Lodge and and and as many Masonic lodges as he can find the best research that I could
Find before starting this book was a guy named by Harold VB Vorhees and and the New York New Jersey guys may know him more because he was a he was a high ranking New Jersey New York Mason he was also one of the guys that helped create
And establish AMD back in the you know 1920s 1930s well VOR does the initial you know before me Vorhees was the guy that did that initial research and he cataloged about 20 to 30 Masonic activities in and around the United States during this 1825 1824 tour I cataloged about 65 so I
Found at least 65 60 you know close to that amount of masonic visits interactions Cornerstone laying ceremonies all those things so what you see in the book really is a catalog of all those activities nice what what do you think was the first Masonic activity I’ll give you guys a question here what
Would you think the first Masonic activity would be now remember he visits New York so he arrives in Ellis Island not Ellis Island was not a thing yes you know the place with the guy John John come on not raing the potentates liquor cabinet at the local
Shrine Club not the place where the X-Men fought Magneto not Ellis Island that’s a deep cut for your youths go ahead what do you think what do you think it was crab Ro crab crab nice nice it wasn’t a green bean dinner although it may have been a green bean dinner who
Knows um his first Masonic activity during his 1824 tour was he was initiated into the Royal Arch and the Knights Templar really oh that’s right so it was Jerusalem chapter number eight in New York New York okay his son was initiated I want to say three or four
Days I want to say it was September 8th actually I have it here what am I doing it’s September 9th his son was initiated September 9th and then three days later Lafayette on September 11th 1824 was initiated into the Royal Arch and then that same day they closed their session
Of the chapter and then they opened Morton Commander number four I’m sure the Morton Commander guys are going to yell at me if I get that right nope it’s Morton Commander number four and so they uh initiated him into the Knights Templar uh that same day so that
Was his first Masonic activity that we believe 1824 right 182 was a one day York right Mason he was oh man oh man red lightning now what happens a couple days later now I believe the dates the date is September 22nd he joins another organization Scottish right that’s right
But not just any Scottish right the serno Scottish right so our dear Lafayette was a cist nice it breaks one’s heart here he is unfortunately but yes so he was initiated you’re not even a New York Mason though that’s true but it just still bricks heart he went he went off
To the SOS come on that’s unfortunate um yeah and I believe he was initiated so so there’s also different reports on that so people thought oh well he was initiated into everything and he got his 33rd that’s not necessarily true he got his 33rd or at least acknowledged
Receiving his 3030 and got his patent about a year before or maybe around the last year of his life in 1834 so he wasn’t a 33rd blah blah blah it was just a you know 32nd degree uh Scottish trit Mason but he was made a see these this is why that the original
Documents are a little wonky he was made the representative of I believe of France to the cists in New York that stuff is a little again a little wonky go to the primary sources go to the bibliography in my book and you can learn more yeah so um so yeah so that
This is this is sort of the you know that’s the one of the one of the big things that he did so I think that I find it interesting that the first thing they get him to do all right let’s get you you’re here you’re going to be here
For a year so let’s get you into the Royal Arch let’s get you that du’s card let’s get you into the you know Scottish right let’s get you into the night’s Templar so even Lafayette could not escape the appended bodies yes yeah he had money and dues so yes if you want to
Check it out latest version of the kns Templar magazine which is online look at that sir Knight raette the American tour written by our very own brother Chris Ry and and Ben Williams who’s the editor of that makes a mean magazine so I’m glad they yeah it’s crispy it really is he’s
Uh much improved from oh yes the last time so yeah yes lays out laid lays out a mean magazine um so he travels to New York he gets jewels and all these interesting things he goes to Philadelphia a huge massive or a Grand Lodge of New York gives him a farewell
Banquet on September 20th before he leaves the Grand Lodge and so he or before he leaves New York and he hits all these different states now Grand lodges are starting to coordinate they’re starting okay he’s going to come in here he’s going to be on these dates
So what can we do for him and so often times they try to coordinate a Grand Lodge activity if it can’t be a Grand Lodge activity then it goes to the low level you know so there are often instances where he visits just a regular blue Lodge becomes perhaps an honorary member
Participates in activities and all that stuff he gets to um an interesting little aity that I found when I was doing the the research he gets to Virginia he gets to Mount Vernon he visits Mount Vernon and after coming out of the tour a very emotional tour with George
Washington he gets out of the the the Crypt George Washington’s tomb and uh George Washington Park custus who basically is sort of like the caretaker of the Washington’s relics and Estates at the time gives him George Washington’s Masonic sash a jewel and a ring with um I believe a lock of his
Hair on it and I I suspect I’m not sure if it’s true but I suspect that’s the Masonic Sash and Jewel that is in the portrait of George Washington that aw20 has I believe that’s it interesting yeah is that the same time that he gave the best deal
Key he gives the best steel key actually a lot so so Lafayette visits the United States in a couple I think three or four times well I think he visits three times After the Revolution and I think on the second time I think I believe actually
He mails the Bas steel key I don’t I don’t even think that’s true but yeah I think he I think that that’s given to him before then um but he does his son and him and his secretary laaser Andre laaser who his secretary basically documents all these activities um uh
Sees the key they they do a tour of of the mansion and they spot the key and it’s and laaser notes in his diary that Lafayette was pleased to see the key hanging in its display now remember the bestas steel was a fortress it was a but
There were only here’s the all the other thing is people assume that the you know in in movies and in TV they show the bastile depictions and you see hundreds of people leaving the bastile freed political prisoners there were probably less than 12 or you know less than 15
People at that time the place was dilapidated there were 354 known bastial keys and so my favorite is everyone’s got a I mean my you know my grandmother has a Basel key come on you have a Basel key great congratulations well anyway yeah oh thanks for showing that slide so that’s
Another sort of um the ephemera that was around the tour so this was Mason’s uh you know uh Mason’s families often created these great little souvenir ribbons and so here are examples of the sort of ephemera of the tour that people would wear during visits with Lafayette
I love that one on the left hand side that’s actually from the Smithsonian that has those Masonic uh symbols on it um and so you can see those different sort of iterations and and and uh you know Masonic and American quite frankly symbols on them well obviously the one
On the left is fake because there’s a skull in masonry that’s right that’s true that’s true so can I tell you about the tragedy that occurs and this is this is the one of the last things we’ll talk about the tragedy that occurs on the tour so when he’s going up the Ohio
River this is in 1825 he’s he went to Louisiana a great Masonic French pseudo French Masonic Grand Lodge activity there he’s going up the you know up the Mississippi touring the the western states the western boundary States going up the Ohio River one night around midnight the ship hits something
The steamboat that hits something we don’t know what it was some sh or something and the ship is now sinking and so all of his papers all of his documents all the certificates all all the aprons all the jewels all the money and thousand by the way hundreds
Of thousands of dollars of stuff and money is now under the oh under the Ohio river and so all his papers all the things that would have made a really good book detailing all of his activities are basically underwater including George Washington’s Jewel so one of you people Whoever has you know
Whoever is interested and has the time has to go to the Ohio River and find George washingon the Oak Island let’s go let’s go to the river mean don’t ask the people don’t ask the people from Oak Island I mean 13 seasons and they found a button well you gotta stretch it out
Don’t ask them you gotta stretch it out I have no idea what you guys are talking about I legally have no idea and symbolically have no idea what you guys are talking about so yeah so so is he so that’s the tra this Stage Coach apparently that was associated with you
Know the park cesses wow there a dog unfortunately that unfortunately fortunately rather everyone on that boat survived Lafayette who’s what in his 70s had to sleep on the side of the of the river with a mat and someone was holding an umbrella because there was a little
Bit of rain I mean that was sort of an unfortunate aspect but just imagine all the things that were lost because of this tour that that early first half of the tour because of that tragedy um so fortunately for us laaser and his secretary and all these others were
Trying basically piece together most of these activities um uh during his trip he he the perhaps the largest activity the most significant the one that involved the most amount of Masons tended to be the Cornerstone ceremonies there were several Cornerstone ceremonies the biggest one is Bunker
Hill there is going to be an anniversary for the Bunker Hill Monument with the grand I know the Grand Lodge massachus is working on that next year um that’s a big one the Masons really built the first monument at Bunker Hill and then they basically you know um were helping
To lay the Cornerstone for the second Monument the one that’s there now but Lafayette created you know Lafayette participated in so many other non-masonic Cornerstone ceremonies buildings all that fun stuff so it’s all in the book awesome well let’s talk about the book yeah that’s a good good
Segue into that how can we uh get a copy of your latest book well if you oh I should have brought it here with me I’ve got a I’ve got the manuscript and we’re going through the layout and the editing now so we should have the book by the
Time we get to August 8 uh 20124 so look for it in the summer this is just a little tease but look for it in the summer uh uh McCoy publishing the the guys that did my White House book uh are doing this one again and so we’ll
Have that in time for um in in time for lafat I I I wanted to do it right before the 100th the 200th anniversary of lafayette’s arrival to the United States so I think we’re still making good time 1824 1824 that’s right and there are by
The way and if you are Mason in any of the states that um Lafayette had some involvement you know if he went through it if he participated in some ceremony or state like you know Georgia South Carolina New York New Jersey I’ve tried to reach out to many as many of them as
Possible but if you’re L participated or is interested in having me come to a presentation I’m happy to do so just let me know because um Grand Lodge in New York has taken up all my time and so uh I’m gonna be very busy man in September
We’re gonna do a lot of activities in September nice so lafette so yeah well good luck on that um tell you what we’ll we’ll seg segue right into final thoughts where you yes get to ask a question that you didn’t get to ask brother Chris so let’s go to
Joe final question I yell at brother Chris on messenger like constantly the time yes no super super Jazz to have you on tonight and this was super fascinating I know there’s a lot of Mystique around brother Lafayette and um yeah I mean just and I think I told
Chris this when we were chat when he was telling me about the book um I think it was Richmond Richmond Randolph Lodge has a little Lafayette display uh in their Lodge and I think he visited that was one of The Lodges he visited I think it was
Richmond 10 at the time I’m not sure what it is now yeah yeah it’s Richmond Randolph something or other um but yeah no they have a cool little Lafayette display he came there uh on his Whirlwind tour um but yeah I I always find it fascinating that you take topics
That we should absolutely know more about as as good Masons and good historians so I mean kudos for for taking this on and I’m super J to get a copy of the book and I’m super jazzed to have you write another inappropriate inscription perhaps I’ll get Joe ages to
Translate the French for me but we’ll see so kinky speaking of I saw him I saw him in the chat so I know I wanted to give him a shout out all right we’ll watch you uh yes there were many so there so what Joe is referring to is there were uh
Grand Orient of France lodges that Lafayette met with in the United States during his tour and so while I was going through this uh you know I would find a couple instances of reporters saying yeah and then Lafayette went into this French Lodge and met with these French
Masons and I’m sitting there going I’m like when the hell was there a French Lodge here and then I started to find all these different other references to you know Masonic not you know not the ones that we would would recognize this was Grand or France so I I found that so
Interesting that was one of the surprising Parts the of the research awesome all right uh brother Jason what question do you have for brother Chris yeah brother Chris thanks so much for for coming on again uh phenomenal discussion as usual um what could could you give us one thing you
Learned in the process of writing this book that had the biggest impact on you as far as changing yes you know your preconceived notions to what they are now I think we as the fraternity do not put enough emphasis on Lafayette as we have done in the past
With guys like Franklin and Washington and river and all these big time Masons I think Lafayette deserves our attention he deserves all the respect that the fraternity should give him and we have more on Lafayette who served with Washington talking about the fraternity than we do than George Washington
Talking about the fraternity he was just like yeah yeah fair enough but I think I I think it it just it just made an impact on me because we he really deserves our attention there should be more there should be another building there should be a there should be
Another you know another George Washington Masonic Memorial on lafette somewhere as Masons we should be contributing to something that respects lafayette’s sacrifices the things that he did the principles and then look at the book read his words where he you know publicly goes out here’s another and as part of that lafayette’s
Contribution in this tour was basically the first effort or one of the earliest successful efforts at coordinated National Masonic activities and because of that because of this public nature right because everyone in the entire country was seeing Lafayette with the presidents of the United States with the you know the
Governors of their state with their local politicians with the militia and all of a sudden the Masons also get equal time in this public activity I make a case and I’m I’m waiting for a brother to really do some good research on this or perhaps I can help them with
It I make the case that Lafayette exacerbates is one of the main contributors to anti-masonic sentiment that happens only four years later that’s true because all of a sudden you’re seeing Lafayette and the Masons everywhere you’re seeing him talking about how great the fraternity is and
You’re you’re seeing a lot of you know potential resentment by people going well wait a minute you know why am I not in this cool Club why should I be a part of this blah blah blah blah blah and then this potentially Spurs and helps engulf and helps congrate the the great
Anti-masonic you know movement just four years later or six years later wow and it’s on the mind of the people and then you have the natural political play where you had uh Mason in the White House and sure wanted to get him out and so you know the antimonic party really
Cropped up as a political engine to to force a a change in the presidency yeah self never trust third parties I no comment the statements provided here do not any statements blah yeah right Joe right Joe yes um yeah great question so I guess the question I had from for um
For you brother Chris is about the relationship with um George Washington and and Lafayette because he very much treated George Washington as a father figure yes and learned a lot from him and he was you know much younger but he leaves America and then like what was the correspondence like because he
Didn’t return until after George Washington died correct so did they have correspondence oh absolutely over the years what was that like they they absolutely had correspondence I mean they’re uh there’s a great um you know I think Founders online there’s they digitized much of the correspondence between Lafayette and Washington uh it
Was a very it was a very the the the affection the relationship was still maintained and and kept and it was a very good relationship and and I think it was it made the tour quite frankly I don’t know I got a little emotional especially during that part when I mean
If you spend three years working on a topic I literally wake up you know do my work do the things I need to do and in my free time I focused on this 70-year-old French dude who we don’t really talk a lot about who had such an interesting experience and to have him
Break down and cry and have these experiences you know when a great either Masonic or non-masonic thing would be given to him or respect given to him he was very emotional he he didn’t hold his you know he didn’t hold up you know it wasn’t a pure anical say he was very
Emotional he talked about it and so to him I think Washington was one of these guys and and and let’s be honest Washington was his college you know he he went out into the field during the Revolutionary War and he got everything every training everything that he learned he learned through Washington
And he referred back to Washington when things got tough I think one of the worst things that happened one of the great I mean like I I had I lost a day just thinking about how completely miserable I would feel if this happened to me and imagine it would happen to you
Where during this period in the French Revolution where he was basically exiled and he was you know get this guy out of here he was not invited to participate in the funeral services in Paris for George Washington’s death the memorial Services Public the public State Memorial Services Lafayette was
Disinvited he was not inv to attend that event a seminal moment because the French revered respected George Washington he did a good thing even the revolutionaries thought George Washington was a great figure a great revolutionary and they the the gal to not invite Lafia to participate in these
Events I think was one of the worst things that ever happened to this man and and then I love seeing that picture of him in his 70s that first picture in the slide that you showed us that is the guy who saw it all that’s the guy who
Went through it all and to me like I just imagine him with his little funky little apron and he gets to walk around and you know he attends aw22 is meeting and he does little toasts and he talks about how great it was for masonry he
Just had he just had such an interesting life and I feel like we if we can talk about this guy I think we can make it more relatable to non-masons like this is what think how we can talk to non-masons about Freemasonry highlighting these individuals like Washington like Lafayette who did so
Much and sacrificed so much that’s I think that’s a beautiful ending um and really you’re just a a cap to to all the things that is because again I I learned so much about uh the the afterward of all of lafayette’s tour back to America and so
I think that uh so again I appreciate you coming on I appreciate all the hard work and research I know what it goes into um doing the research for this type a book um and and so thank you again on behalf of the fraternity for pulling it
All together and you really do a great service to the craft because um again I appreciate you f you taking the time to find those things that we assume are well documented and then actually doing the homework because uh that’s the only way we leave a legacy and so I again I
Appreciate uh everything you’re doing and I look forward to the book when it comes out in August so um hopefully you will be part of that 24 state tour and you can start going around and signing copies of your book by then but um I’ll
Get my copy for sure thank you again for coming on this has been an excellent topic and I do appreciate everyone else for tuning in learning a little bit and that’s all we got for this week keep searching for more light have a good night
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