The Art of Masonic Leadership and Global Brotherhood with Guest Mark Tishman

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Utilize the teachings of Freemasonry to unlock the greatness within each of us I have you now all right welcome back welcome back to on the level podcast today on on the level podcast we have a very special guest uh a good friend of mine who most of the listeners will never have heard

His name until today uh but I doubt that this will be the last time you hear it worshipful Mark tishman of the 23rd Masonic District in the State of Florida welcome to the show Mark good morning worship for yourself worshipful master Mark tishman I I apologize that means I better stand up

Because I’m sitting I I gen you flect but I’m already sitting oh please you’re not worthy I’m not worthy none of us are worthy okay only to the Big G all right well welcome I’m pleased to be here Chris yes yes so you uh we’re recording now at very early

January uh February sorry we just broke into February so I’m I’m assuming that uh that you’ve probably had at least two state of communications at this point in your worshipful master year uh I have so far indeed we’ve had we’re about to have our third this coming Tuesday correct so

You should have it all figured out you should be totally streamlined you got it on every little detail you’re totally comfortable in the role by now oh I’m just crushing that man not that’s a joke for anybody that’s been in the East uh you don’t really get comfortable until about the 11th month

Of your job right when you start to feel like you got it down um but you know it is it’s a hard transition because you spend many years you know it’s different for each of us for me it was about five years going through the progressive line and then one day

You have total and complete authority over the entire operation and nothing changed for you as a man you woke up one morning the same guy you were for six years busting your butt in the lodge and then you go to sleep that night and you have total and complete authority over

All your members in the entire operation it’s a pretty harsh transition wouldn’t you agree I agree it’s it’s still settling in at times and there are uh it was only recently when I actually had to issue orders granted they were by email but I had to issue orders oh really uh

That that it made me understand but I they it wasn’t because people weren’t cooperating it was because I wanted to uh make sure we had certain information in by date certain oh yes okay yeah yeah you mean you’re actually trying to do your job I’m trying to do my job it’s

Congratulations on that a lot of a lot of Masters uh uh really really a lot of people in positions of authority in a internal organization that is a charity they’re there for the title more than the work so it’s good to hear that you hit the ground focused on the right

Things that’s a good sign for your year I I have a focus of um and it may be a bit for selfish purposes but I’d like to leave a legacy with the green check mark yes rather than rather than the uh the the black circle with the the red circle

With the yeah so I’d like to I’d like to leave a legacy that that that is very helpful and then I’m able to keep my CLE board on track and focused and even accomplish it that’s awes that’s awesome and that’s why I wanted to have you here

Because uh I I’ve known you since I joined Freemasonry um Mark worshipful master Mark tishman is the master of the lodge that I was raised in um and I I’ve said uh on the podcast many times uh I’ve said a little bit about my history in joining freeming that I joined the

Lodge and I didn’t get the experience I was hoping for in that Lodge and I wound up U seeking it in another Lodge and that’s where I’ve settled and thrived is in the second Lodge that I joined um but Mark is in the original Lodge that I I

Joined Phoenix Lodge number 346 in Sarasota Florida and I remember in the early days for me after I was raised um you were one of the first people that stood out to me and you won’t you’ll be surprised to hear this because I never told him before but uh I was sitting as

Uh I believe Junior Stewart was the first chair I sat in and we were at a state of communication and your job as the steward is to basically not fall asleep so I just stare at the wall across the room and just Tred my hardest

Not to fall asleep and one time uh Mark tishman stood up and he said you know I Brothers I um I would like to take our leftovers from our dinners and bring them to the homeless downtown s soda and people no one offered to help

You of course but they did allow you to do it and it struck me as something very different than I was experiencing in that Lodge at that point in my Masonic career was someone just trying to do something good for someone else um and I don’t know if you recall

That but it’s something that you you I don’t know why you did that uh but I was impressed by it at the time I thought that’s a very selfless thing to take your time to take this food down to people and we we have a very big

Homeless problem in the city of Sarasota it’s it’s very rampant in the downtown area they have a whole community that just live in the middle of the in that Downtown City there on the out in the open um and they’re always hanging around uh and so you did that for I

Don’t know how long until I think it became a dangerous situation because it was night time it was dark uh and I think you had to stop for safety reasons otherwise you probably would have kept doing it so do you recall that I do I also recall um I don’t remember if that

Was the actual uh occasion when I floated a uh a motion that we allow that to happen I know I talked about wanting to do it that may have been the same time um and you weren’t an officer by the way you were just a on the sidelines

Just idea I still do it I still do it um I don’t do it with Lodge food um and you’re right safety is a is a matter one of our masters of the lodge told me and you know he’s he’s he’s an ex you know law enforcement officer and he’s an attorney

Deals with you know a lot of Defense situations and he deals a lot of almost in an advocacy role for um you know sort of like a quazi public defender um so he has a bit of a jaded you know look and it’s just his personality and he said

You know and he brought up a point which is that somebody could say t through the food but give me your car exactly you you know so so you know so I realize that you know and and and and you have this idilic bubble around

You like oh I’m doing good and I’m Ser I’m carrying the sword of masonry with me and I’m going to be okay right no the the the the the ones who are inebriated go well my uncle was a mason or something or you know I really always

Want to learn about the you know I want to learn about the uh you know about the cabal or whatever you know they talk about that but most people are very very very grateful I only had one guy one time ask me for the $10 bill in my in my

Pocket and I said no I’m here to give you a meal I didn’t say it that that calmly and quietly but anyway um that was I I I don’t recall you being there that night but I recall me saying that and I’m grateful and I’ve did that and I

Stopped doing that officially not so much for safety reasons but I rotated out of the self um and other you know I still do it with people but I don’t go alone oh that’s and I usually I usually like when I stood up and would go I’d

Say if somebody has three arms with them I’d like them to go with me you know meaning if somebody somebody somebody is armed not that we want to have a conflict but um I do it during the day like I did it the other day I was uh you

Live in the state of Florida and I’m pretty sure everyone is born with a 9 millimeter in the State of Florida so finding someone armed is not a difficult thing to do you mean you mean somebody with three arms you know right exactly exactly you know and

Then some yeah I do uh it’s interesting yeah a lot of people are and I’m sure we have people in in the lodge who um have carry abolutely I was know I was at your Lodge for a doing a lecture something in a degree one night and uh guy’s gun fell

Right out of his jacket in the dining hall gun slid the floor ow glad glad think it was on safety it would have been a problem but I’m sure if you if you asked everyone to show there’s I I bet probably more than 50% of the LOD is probably yeah yeah we

We got X law enforcement and current yeah which which is fine you know it’s interesting because I um we had a presentation by Sarasota County uh Sheriff’s Office about um it was an active shooter presentation and um we didn’t made sure we didn’t call it a

Drill because it wasn’t a drill but it was a presentation and I realized you know in this day and age um it doesn’t hurt because espec with as you know there was a a lodge uh in Florida that was burned by by someone that was frustrated Mason there was there have

Been there have been at least one homicide of Mason outside lodges so um so you know I I’m I’m fine with it um and we’ve even gone as far as having conversation about having certain people who are really good at that strategically placed to the lodge I I I

Again it’s it’s it’s it’s really unfortunate and I’m not here to to discuss the political scenario so much is it’s unfortunate we live in a day and age when when that is part of the reality more for children than it is for us yes but we do have to consider the

Fact that if somebody wants to get into that building while we’re there it’s it’s not impossible to get in there and we even though we do we all know there’s a Tyler and the Tyler has a sword but that doesn’t mean he’s an excellent Marksman you know um yeah so and so the

Point is is that I’m comfortable with that but anyway I I’m kind of going down the the degression from the downtown the downtown was I had people I’ve done it before um and I get a I I I brought to my masonry this feeling of giving um I

Really really really feel very very tuned in to um we call it you know the great architect my higher power whatever you want to choose to call it God whatever I feel very tuned in and plugged in when I’m able to give and give for the right

Reasons and I think that is a very common thread for people that join the fraternity they want to be part of something bigger than themselves and they don’t really know how in their everyday life to get engaged in that kind of thing and they’re looking for an organization that can help them

Contribute time money whatever it is they want to do um towards charity for other men and Freemasonry you know um I would I talk to hundreds and hundreds of people that want to join fraternity and that is almost always something that they say they’re interested in that’s very common now talking about this

Talking about joining the fraternity I I’m very curious to find out personally why you decided to join the fraternity and at what age or what point of your life like how did you get to the point where you walked through the door for the first time

Well I’ll I’ll prace it by saying that masonry has taught me to be uh with more intention and more planning and that said there was not intention and planning in becoming amazing uh in my previous uh career I um I was uh in the financial services industry

And one of my clients um and I were scheduled to have a review of um the financial products that I had sold this person and I went to his home to meet with him and his wife and I noticed on his pickup truck a bumper sticker that

Said Freemasons Built America and I had heard of the Freemasons and this was about 2010 maybe okay and um so that was you know almost 14 years ago all right so I was just about 50 at the time and um I went inside and you know we said harlos and all I

Said what is that bumper sticker outside what does that mean so instead of explaining to me he starts up goes to the room gets a petition and so you’ve been a member of Phoenix Lodge from day one actually I was a member of uh of believe it was

Builders Builders right before they so I believe I was member of Builders very briefly um and then uh and I don’t I mean anyone looks Sonic record which is on Amity or is available I can I can give it or you can look it up but I

Believe that I was actually raised in Phoenix but I believe I petitioned in Builders so interesting story here um Sarasota Lodge uh the members of Sarasota Lodge branched off and formed another um Lodge in the city of Sarasota called Builder Lodge from what I understand from the history I was told

This is mainly Masons who were actually Builders as a craft um and that’s why they called it Builder Lodge these were people who worked with their hands in construction in some way shape or form and actually did build their own Lodge um if I understand the history correctly well that that that building

Was built by Masons the building at 240 South tutle definitely had a lot of people I don’t remember the gentleman’s name in 1960 or 61 who was instrumental in doing that but they definitely built that block building there and it stands it’s got very impressive building and

They did something at the time which was they put in uh you know concrete trusses you know if you ever gone in you you’ve been in the addict of that building right Chris oh yes it’s very big you can see it’s big it’s big and creepy it’s

Cleaned out so I’m gonna give a shout out to Dale Jackson brother Dale Jackson right here on this podcast and when you hear at Dale can know that I was thinking about you because he is our lodge property chair and he has done an amazing aming job along with other

People getting that catacombs cleaned out so it is that you can actually walk up there brother brother Dale is a master of the art of what I like to call busting of the balls every time I come to your Lodge he is a professional ball

Buster that is that is true I find it hilarious so I don’t know if everyone gets it but I I know that he’s being funny and I I have fun with it every time I see he’s he’s good he’s I like I like I like you know I do hope that he

Gets opportunity to be on your podcast on because I think he’s a he’s a wealth of knowledge an interesting man and um I I like him yeah we have very opposing views on things and I think oh absolutely I very much like to talk to people that I’ll see I’ll see them later

I’ll tell them to reach out and see if he want to do it that’s great let see if he wants to do it um but um but anyway uh u i digress um but but you know a lot of people built it and um um that I didn’t

Know that you just told me something I did not know by the way get even more fun so uh Sarasota Lodge had enough of a massive membership after a group of them splintered off to form Builder Lodge another group splintered off and formed a lodge in honor of I think the only

Member of Sarasota Lodge that ever became a Grandmaster of the State of Florida carry be fish um not quite not quite there was the fellow in porda was also a grandm well I mean for Sarasota 147 the the only member we had become a Grandmaster was Carri B fish who was an

Attorney in town at the time right right and uh he he was fortunate enough to be the to be The Grandmaster and laid the Cornerstone at like uh the courthouse downtown and and the school in Sarasota all in 1923 somewhere around that time and so after he passed they formed a

Lodge in his name and now we have three lodges in the city city of Sarasota and uh over time I believe Builder Lodge had um money or they had money and not members because they sold their building and had money and Cary B fish was meeting in the same Lodge as Builder’s

Lodge and didn’t have much membership uh so one Lodge had the money one Lodge had the membership they were struggling independently and they wound up merging into a new Lodge that became known as Phoenix Lodge Phoenix rising from the ash is Phoenix which is the logo of Phoenix Lodge

346 and that’s so mark is telling you that he came in under builders’s Lodge and then must have been raised somewhere around the transition of that merger uh our our first um our transitional woral master was was Nile Davenport and then um after Nile his son Michael took over and Michael took over

For basically the second half of the year and I believe Dutch neinhart was is our first full year Master yes in in Phoenix Lodge isn’t it wild that now your pictur is going to be on the wall after this year and the same Legacy of all of those other masters from those

Other two lodges really interesting to mention that and I’m looking for it to be a very long time before this black St strip across my shoulder you explain what that means to people you know in in the lodge and I’m sure a lot of brothers in your lodges

You know that when you see a picture of a past Master on the wall and he has a black ribbon it means he’s laid down his his working tools yeah gone to the celestial Lodge in the sky um but you’re right it is interesting I will be with

These with these guys yeah it’s it it’s something that never really I didn’t ever think about it you know I’m I’m one of those like uh I keep my mind focused on what’s right in front of me and the goals I’ve got to achieve and I’m hyper

Focused on those things and it’s over is when I realize whoa I did all that stuff whoa this stuff happened and uh that’s when I realized I think when I left the East was well my you know we moved our past Masters pictures into the lodge

Room um before I became master so I was the first master of Sarasota Lodge uh who’s then they’ve been around since 1905 they got to sit in Pride in the East and I would just spend half of the entire meeting looking at the PMS staring out at us and that weight really

It weighed on me heavily it it I recommend if you can get your past Master history pictures in the lodge because it elevates the whole experience to think about how many men poured so much passion and energy into this place that you’re now presiding over um and it

Really does make you think twice before you speak or make a decision you like don’t want to let those guys down it’s it’s interesting you say that I’ll tell you um I’ve thought about that and and you know in in leading any good organization you know you have to you

Have to pick your battles carefully right yes now we we are unique in the fact that we have a rental building our building is owned by the Scottish right um of Florida the valley of Tampa actually owns it it may be titled differently but it is the Scottish right

Center of Sarasota so as tenants um we have free reign to do what we want but from a you know I come from a business background and so the business person in says you know um there’s not a ton of incentive to pour a lot of money into a

Building that you do not own nor will you ever own right um but we but we are still its stewards and its custodians and we want to take care of it so I got there are there are in that building uh for those that haven’t been there in the

What used to be the street entrance Lobby right off of Tuttle Avenue there and that was where people used to enter back when when in the day now entrance through the back parking lot entrance now but um there are pictures of past um uh Scottish right people and Shrine people and

Um the incent the the consensus has been to move all the pictures from the social hall of Carrie B and Builders into the hall and leave the Phoenix Masters in the fellowship hall so that’s what they I wanted them in side but you know it it was recently that somebody told me and

It was a successful Mason said to me when you’re in the East actually it was two days ago I had a past Grandmaster of uh uh talked to me and we had lunch and um he said you know it’s a benevolent dictatorship but the ones who are the mo

The ones who are the most successful run it as a uh consensus-based democracy we are we are Servants of The Craft as Masters we are servant leaders is how I always looked at it we Bear full responsibility but we defer all decision- making to the brothers of The Lodge correct we are

Only there to break a tie if they can’t decide really it’s there L that that’s that’s really that’s a great way of looking at it and and that’s why it’s difficult for me to uh want to find myself in a position of you know therefore I rule and this is my rule and

I order I try yeah yeah I I only do it if if necessary and and it’s really something I don’t you know in my in my installation um once I had um been given the jewel of my office and as everyone knows the the uh the the the square of

The ma of the master that it hangs in a way that the point is facing up and the the arms are facing down I physically held it in my hand and lifted it up to show that it is an inverted triangle as well and that I am on the bottom and I

Am there to serve and that was the that was the method I chose to to use that that allegory right to speak about very Masonic very Masonic way to explain it that’s how we like to learn through allegory and symbols you made a symbol

Out of it I made a symbol out of it it was servant leadership I talked about it and uh um it has been pointed out to me that that I’m I’m but a conductor I’m but an Orchestra conductor and I just have to be to make sure that the the

Triangles and the bassoons get along and play nice and stand together that’s right I mean this is how lodges succeed so we I don’t want to dwell on any negativity here but I’ve I’ve repeatedly talked about my early experiences in Freemasonry and how it wasn’t for me

Right and I don’t want to say names I don’t want to talk about any specific years or instances but I will say this is a masonic thing that is it’s not just a one Lodge problem this is a I think is a general not even just in our

Jurisdiction but globally an issue is that we have a progressive line and a beautiful system of shared uh ownership over our lodges and and um you know it’s a dangerous thing when past leadership tries to maintain control after their time is over and when you’ve got for example uh secretaries or other

Past uh important roles that Past Masters should fill because they’re obviously the best ones for those roles they understand the lodge working better than anybody right but I’ve seen lodges where those people try to maintain control of the lodge and not let the active officers run the lodge as they

See fit versus lodges that respect that and I was just talking to uh uh Jeremy Barnes yesterday about this and he said you know he realized what being the master was was when he turned to who is ultimately the most powerful Mason in DC was the secretary and he asked him a

Question and the secretary said don’t ask me it’s your Lodge Horse full Master which is the best that’s great that’s he said that really taught him like oh I’m on my own up here I need to run this thing um but a lot of a lot of

Lodges aren’t like that if you ask the secretary the question he’s more than happy to answer that question take control or even not waitting until you ask the question just tell you what to do and so that’s a good lesson I think for anyone that’s in the in the

Progressive line uh coming up is that enjoy your time and and make your impact as you’re going through the line because it goes fast faster than you think it’s going to go and your impact can be far-reaching through the Lodge’s history if you’re a good activ contributing

Brother um but once your time is over your job is now to support the active line it’s not to continue to run that Lodge you’re there to share your history and your experiences and obviously voice your opinions vote your conscience as a brother but ultimately you’re there to

Support the new line that’s running that Lodge you know going in I I thought to myself that um we’re going to have to deal with um strong characters who um want to continue to control and run the lodge and it was explained to me not

Long ago and I think you and I have had a conversation about this Chris and you even agreed was that by fact that they are Past Masters and the fact that they’ve stayed in service in an officer position um shows their dedication to the lodge that’s

Right so look looking in a negative way we could say they’re trying to have control in a positive way we say they have the ve vested interest they have residual ownership like all of us and I think that one thing that has been been inculcated is a nice way of saying

Drilled into my head um is uh uh do not break the lodge right and that’s a very subjective term of what breaking the lodge means but you know I will tell you this that I have a feeling it’s talking about Harmony probably yes it is it is

So so what you what you said to me is you agree that they have a vested interest um however that would seem be more like in a defensive position rather than an offensive position in other words their job would be basically to shore up the if if we’re going sideways

You know to kind of make sure those those those those boundaries are in place so you know um I met with the leadership of my Lodge and I um the the past leadership of my Lodge and I said you need to give myself and our senior Warden and Junior Warden a chance to

Fail said this is how we learn our lessons as you me right right exactly and and by and large they’ve they’ve honored that but I will hearken back on to something you said the very beginning of our interview which was that you wake up one day and you’re still the same man

Yeah I realized that um now that I know a thing or two because lifelong rery you know Albert Pike would tell me I’m but a pup right right right okay so but lifelong learning of masonry and I know a thing or two about the operation of Lodge and

I have a bit of experience in my life being you know having made it this far you know this this many times around the Sun um what I will tell you is um I will use them as a wealth of knowledge I don’t mind turning they won’t steer me wrong

And I’m also able to tell them um you know I haven’t had to remind them who’s in the East and I hope I don’t right I never want to be in that position I never want to be in that position because I think part of that I

Think part of that is also how I conduct myself and don’t put myself in a position where I need to be run I think you’re you make a good point here there’s two sides to that relationship because you’re now an active officer you’re you’re the head of the active officer I’m the primary

Officer of the lodge and so um you’ll understand this um more next year but I’m a past Master now and so um although I’m advocating for the officer line to have their freedom to make their choices and make their mistakes as I said and the past Master job is ultimately to

Support them um you know the officers on the flip side the active officers also need to really like you just said look to your past Masters and include them in as much as they can because those Brothers still need a reason to come to Lodge and you

Can give it to them you can include them in things you can ask their opinions on things uh you can ask for help and guidance and that’s what they’re there for that’s how you have a good relationship is that both sides are doing the best they can in their

Specific roles they’re engaging each other uh and I think that’s what makes a healthy LOD and hopefully it is yeah you’re saying you’re doing that you’re actually having lunch with these people asking opinions asking for support and now they’ve got to do their job and give their opinions but respect

That you’re making the decisions now when the decision come you’re you’re right my my position is that nobody knows how what it’s like to be a woral master except a woral master or minister so it was recommended to me after the election was held um and I knew I was then a woral

Master elect at that point to convene an ad hoc Past Masters Council so I sought out all the living masters of the lodge now be a little different in 147 because there’s a lot of living people left which is fine see we only have a history

Of 11 or 12 years right and and we’ve actually already lost one member you know and couple moved away and all so um so I convened them I I got some uh you know uh some snacks and I had them come to the lodge and you know granted we’re

Not supposed to have Masonic business on Sunday but everybody said you know this is the only day we can get together so we went over and we met around 3 o00 and we had a conversation and I laid out my Trestle board you know which was my plan

And my agenda for the year and um I said please tear it apart pick it apart tell me if it’ll work if it won’t work yes no maybe and uh that was a very valuable way if for nothing else it forged the relationships it demonstrated my

Humility that I wasn’t just like uh you know Simba in The Lion King I just can’t wait to be king I wasn’t interested in just waiting to be king I was interested in um you know being being involved in the lodge and I was I was you know

Nervous of course because um and I’m you know like you know there’s a there’s a term called you stress and there stress so the you stress is the good stress we’ve got a lodge meeting on Tuesday right this weekend at tomorrow today and tomorrow I’ll be begin working on the

Agenda you know when all eyes are on you you know it’s really important for you to to make sure that um you have an agenda that works that flows you know and and and I try to be inclusive as I told you before so I’ll send it out to

All the officers and we also give copies to all the to the craft when they go in the lodge so they can follow yeah so I believe in I believe in collaboration collaboration is a very important part of better the more eyeballs you have looking at things the more opinions the

Better the end products going to be exactly yes so um so we’ll look forward to seeing what the reviews are our interview well I’ll tell you they say great minds think alike so when I became Master the very first thing I did uh we use a communication tool called group me

Which is a messaging app that allows you to have a lot of people in different groups categorized you talk right our lodge has one I’m sure your Lodge has one um but I made a new group called The Past Masters advisory Council and I put every living past master in that group

Me and I used it a lot in my year every time I had a a a kpff pop up or there was some dissension and I was like not immediately sure what to do and you can’t go to the craft with all this kind of stuff but you can Past Masters and

They loved hearing it and being able to share their opinions privately right this is just between the Past Masters right and now I’m a I’m a member of the Past Masters Council and I added the new Master into it and hopefully this is a tradition that they’ll carry on for some

Time um just letting every Master have this like advisory Council in their back pocket because wow what a wealth of resource of information you have true Brothers true and the list will grow that’s great and like we said we want to include them they’re they’re an

Important part of our lodge and so let them you know let them shine in the role that they’re in which is advising the master and helping great I I think that there’s a lot to learn from everyone and uh you know the the more uh the more uh

Diverse we are the more the more people we bring in um the more even though we have this Unity of purpose the the more experiences people bring in the more you can draw on those experiences you know well what a great transition to the next

Subject I have for you all right you did that perfectly you said uh you you mentioned the word diversity so Freemasonry and this is uh this podcast was built for originally for people that aren’t Masons yet I wanted to talk about Freemasonry in such a way as to make it

Um understandable to someone that’s not a Mason that’s researching because there’s too much nonsense out there and so when we talk about Freemasonry the first thing we talk about is that it is not a religion and uh it this this fraternal organization although it mandates in order to be a member You

Must Believe in a higher power than yourself and an eternal salvation for example it does not dictate what flavor of religion you take on correct and so it is quite inclusive and that that diversity strengthens us as a group in my opinion I run a company and diversity

Of opinion uh of age of upbringing of socioeconomic status those variety of experiences and opinions make the end product so much stronger when you can get input from each of those groups into the end product and so I believe it’s the same in our fraternity uh with the

More diverse uh range of Ages and people and ethnic backgrounds and socioeconomic status we have working together the better our end product is going to beats his society and uh I only bring that up because you um are actively in the State of Florida which mandates that a

Christian Bible be present on its altar at all times during any state at or call communication and you yourself are a man of Jewish faith uh and you know this is that makes you a minority in the State of Florida in my opinion um this you’re

You’re no by fact not opinion it’s fact and uh so I have so many questions for people in that situation uh because I I’m not I I’m born a white man in Upstate New York and a Christian you know my mom taught at the Sunday school

And I was a I was a presbyterian growing up and that’s what that’s all I knew um and so when I moved to Florida I became subjected to a lot of different things um you know I worked at Disney was my first job and Disney’s like 70% gay so

That was a huge culture shock for me coming from conservative Upstate New York to 70% gay it took a for me to get my bearings but let me tell you I’m a better man today for having experienced the diversity that I did in my life um

And so I I’m I know the benefits of embracing diversity and so whenever I get an opportunity to talk to somebody that’s not of my Flavor of Life I really want to ask questions a lot of questions I’m very curious so would you mind if we talked briefly about that topic not at

All I’d be happy to share so when you came into the fraternity was it explained to you that you were going to take an obligation and you can choose your book of faith when you do that was that it was it was not it it was not

Okay that’s and and KN knowing now what I know um I would have selected U what we call the T which is the which is the Torah in a bound form it’s a you can’t bring it Torah onto the onto the altars because they don’t travel too well you

Know and there’s all kinds of conditions under which they travel but you can bring this book which I have and it is the Torah the entire Torah in a printed bound form had I known then I would have used that so um and it is difficult because we don’t it you can’t really

Blame necessarily the lodge that you’re initiated in for that because um we don’t ask we don’t when don’t say hey are you Jewish we don’t do that no no we don’t ask it and and the the rule would have still had been there that the Christian Bible was there but I could

Have had that as well I noticed recently a picture of um vice president kamla Harris when she was being installed and sworn in um there was the Christian Bible but there was also um um I do not know she is converted I know her husband

Is Jewish and I noticed if you look at that picture you’ll see there’s two books with her hand on top of two books there’s one book on top of another I just noticed that recently um so I was told I could have done that

And but but the the way I the way I all of us in our lodge and I probably is this way in in the lodge that you were past master of are given a um a masonic Bible yes and that Masonic Bible even though it has a whole lot of interesting

Information and nice pictures and a gold leaf finding and everything yeah it’s beautiful it is is the St James Bible and inside there is the first five books of Moses which is the holy Scriptures it is the holy scriptures that is what I grew up with so once I learned that I

Didn’t ask for a redo or take two yeah I said okay it’s there I’m installed I’m raised and I took my obligation and my hand was in the right place and more importantly my heart was in the right place yes so here’s here’s what we have

To do as masters of our lodges is be observant so I was Master last year and we we initiated 20 some guys one of those guys I observed wearing a yamaka and he was there for his installation or he was going to be initiated that day and he was there just

Relaxing and I happened to he was sitting so I could see it on his head and so I walked up at him and said excuse me um I noticed your yamaka I’m presuming that you’re Jewish of the Jewish faith and he said said yes I am

And I said well we actually have you’re going to take an obligation to he was an Odd Fellow and apparently the Odd Fellows go through a very similar practice to what the Freemasons do so he was immediately knew what I was about to

Ask him and he said yes I do and I said okay if we happen to have a tanak we have a Bible we have the Kuran we have all the books under our altar so if you’d like I can pull it out for you when you take your application he said

Yes please so um the only reason that happened for him is because I was observant and I inquired otherwise it wouldn’t have happened so unless uh unless uh a less aware Master would have said only the only person who can have their head covered in the lodge is the

Master and actually in the digest in Florida does clearly it does clearly stay in the digest in Florida that a person who wears a head covering for religious purposes may keep their head covered absolutely yeah so and he did he wore his yamaka and every time he came

To Lodge and for every degree he took which is great again that’s part of the diversity that makes us awesome because it’s a clear visible sign that oh I want to for me that oh I need to ask this brother some questions I have questions for him and he’s gonna have answers and

We had many conversations he actually bought me a beautiful t uh Torah and gave it to me as a gift and as well as another book because he didn’t begin Jewish he actually converted to Judaism later in life because of his wife um and

So I told him you know at one point I think I don’t know maybe I’m Jewish and he said maybe gave me some book well it’s it’s interesting because I talk to people along the way and they go well my grandmother was Jewish and I go okay and

I said uh I want to tell you this that that means your mother was Jewish that means you’re Jewish Well’s it’s a bloodline you may not practi you may not practice the the faith or identify with that but I mean I’m saying that in terms of the requirements of conversion or being

Jewish you have to have a direct bloodline yes well this is what I find it’s a very unique situation with people that are Jewish or people that are of the Jewish faith because my wife is Ukrainian as an example she’s very her family none of them have ever been of

The Jewish faith as far back as she knows um you know they came from communist Soviet Russia right but when she took a DNA test she’s about 3 to 4% Jewish now Jewish is a genetic marker it is a version of us of us as Humanity identify as Jewish you cannot change

That that’s a gentic part of who you are as you said if your mother’s Jewish technically you’re going to be Jewish in in the literal sense because we identify Jewish in some ways as a A variation of human and but we also have the Jewish faith which I like before we spoke you

Said I prefer to call it the Jewish faith and I like that because you’re identifying my genetic Jew Jewish Heritage from I choose the Jewish faith right and I find that to be a fascinating thing that only applies to the Jewish people they’re the only people like that it’s it’s and it’s

Interesting it’s not has nothing to do with being a minority so much is because you know growing up I knew nothing of being a minority because surrounded by this right I was surrounded by this and and I grew up in the Jewish Enclave of Pittsburgh called Squirrel Hill you know

Which is where Tree of Life synagogue is and I used to pass by on my way to school all the time um so um Point did you leave that Safe Community in Virtual venture out into a community where you did become a minority in that Community when my mother dragged me Kicking and

Screaming into this small city called Sarasota Florida in 1972 72 wow and I had I had I had I had a teacher uh a math teacher who would leave these small biblical tracks on our desk you know these kind that say you know you know uh be saved and all yeah

And he literally would look at me in a way he was looking for my horns and my clo and hoofs in my tail you know and it got to the point where he believed he was going to save me and um we actually had to have a

Conversation with him and a rabbi and my mother at some point to tell him that he needed to kind of find some other person to spend his energy on and um you know so so we are in the South even though even though Florida is a very diverse place

And we’re very and that will also lead me to one place I want to go with my masonry but we are we are in the south and we are um very diverse in a lot of ways but we are still even though we are Nation founded on judeo-christian principles we are a Christian

Nation and as I would disagree with that okay well here’s why let me just quickly say why because that’s okay that’s fine U my my previous host was a devout uh Christian and he always said things like that and I said actually we’re founded on Masonic principles our country which

Is the except of all faith we were never founded as a Christian Nation it was never it was specifically forbidden to be a Christian Nation uh in the founding document so I don’t accept the premise that we are a Christian Nation I think we’re I don’t accept it either because

I’m here to learn but at the same time I guess I I was taking a uh generally accepted principle but and and I see your point and I agree with you and I now will I will not you I just learned something so thank you um no seriously

You have to remain teachable you cannot graft a new ideas on a close mind so I’m an open mind I get what you’re saying like the predominant religion in our country for sure is Christianity no one doubts no one can question that I don’t think that is that is a fact and that

And that’s what I found when I moved to Florida and it is that way so you know there are there are I visited a um a uh Lodge in um I visited the Grand Lodge of New York have you been I’ve never been to the Grand Lodge okay but I the Grand

Lodge New York I’ve been to the in Philadelphia which is pretty impressive New York is is just as impressive and I had him uh uh opportunity to meet with a brother who is uh functions in the role of a uh of a dosent and uh we met and we by

Appointment and he’s of the Jewish faith he invited me to a Jewish Lodge that meets online to be part of yeah and um there are uh The Grandmaster of the past Grandmaster of Wisconsin told me of a lodge that he uh was is a member or was

A member of in Wisconsin that was in Milwaukee that was all Jewish folks so I came into masonry not knowing much you know I in background wise I don’t have I came from a broken home and my mother was busy surviving rather than and she did her best to inculcate um Jewish

Theocracy in us but more importantly we got Jewish values which are not which are there are so many parallels in masery in Jewish values I believe it you know have you heard just be a mench okay be a man be a men just do the right

Thing be a standup guy who does the right thing okay what is about you know it’s not it’s not it’s not immune from the same issues as other organized religions the Jewish faith you have uh many different versions now of the Jewish faith right you have you you have uh you have different

Denominations you know and that’s you know it all started as Orthodoxy right right and now there’s Ultra Orthodox you know with with uh groups that are the satar you know which are in Crown Heights in burough Park they call them the black hats right the big black fur

Hats yeah yeah the some of the furry hats those guys you know and they’re from different they’re from different different um Villages or what they call Shettles in in Eastern Europe and um they uh they have uh you know that the the the largest uh sect of Orthodox

Jewelry is called kabad lubich and they are they are a very wonderful group of individuals who are welcoming to everybody kind of like masony they welcome everybody of all um of all Jewish denominations uh they want to meet you where you live which is which is my goal

For masonry to meet new Masons where they live yeah right in other words make it make it a welcoming place today we have an open house I’ll be going after this interview to the open house we have a blood drive we have a movie night so

We have we meet people we get to see people there um but I wanted to make sure I I touch on the other ones and and so then you’ve got conservative Judaism reformed Judaism and now there are a couple things called um humanistic Judaism and different forms and they’re really just

They’re almost aab that blends and then you have a um you have a a sect called Messianic Judaism which is a which Christian people that follow um Jewish uh ethos they use the Torah they learn Hebrew those kind of things but they are they are um at their core um Christians

And and their savior is Jesus which is fine um what and so how still Jewish uh I don’t uh because I think it’s you are when you say you are I suppose so I mean to me the main difference between Christianity and Judaism is that uh the Christians kind of picked up the

Football that the Jewish left and carried it further and said here’s the rest of the story now this is what happened that’s one way of looking at that’s one way of looking at I’ve never thought looked at in that analogy I think it’s I think it’s that um that um

The the um kind of like you know Scottish right tells us a lot of the Scottish right degrees talk about like after the fall of Solomon’s Temple what happened like you’re caring right rest of the story right right but it’s founded on it’s founded on Judaism I mean Jesus Christians blows their mind

When you say Jesus was a rabbi like he was a rabbi I hate to tell you he was a Jewish rabbi that’s how he lived his life that’s who he was that’s right that’s right you know there was no Christianity at the time think it’s really interesting tooo because um for a

Couple reasons um uh as you know one of the things we make a point of doing in masonry is looking for our similarities and our differences right yeah so so but what people do forget is you can have conversations in the fellowship hall about religion and politics you can have

Those you just can’t have them in open Lodge this is a so this a mistake that people make they think that Masons can’t even talk about about that right and that’s not true yeah I mean that diversity is what makes this in terms of diversity what you know I mean I have

This great goal for uh a plan for the summer of some diversity but AR you if you have I I’ll tell you or I can go right into that go for it tell me okay um when I we and and my article in this month’s chess board

And I’m not sure if you subscribe to the Phoenix chess board do you okay so so you you’ll see my comments from the East I’m callic creeper I creep on everybody’s stuff I’m watching all everything it’s okay that’s what we do all you know it all builds strength

Strength to strength I always find I’m looking for the good stuff I can take and uh you see the bad stuff to avoid that’s learning that’s learning that’s absolutely learning that’s that’s it but in my article it talks about how impressed I was at the Grand communication the last grand

Communication that uh PHA Prin all affiliate Masons were um we are in the process of getting to full full recognition yeah we’re in the process there Florida’s behind the times nobody nobody will nobody in the least will will doubt you on that a lot of other um states have full recognition and they

Hold Comm communication with Prince Hall as well as um the Grand Lodge system or one of I think four other jurisdictions that don’t recognize Prince Hall so in this but we’re moving in that Direction and when when it was mentioned in as in in Grand Lodge in the grand

Communication last May um that um there’s a beta test going on right now where some lodges had met with each other yes and they were welcome it went uh it was a standing ovation so yes I I plan on reaching out to the um Deputy Grandmaster because the current

Grandmaster has his plate full and is is near he’s already over halfway through his year yeah but I plan on reaching out to the uh Deputy grandmas for who will be the Grandmaster Florida next year whose theme is Youth and I’d like to see if we can hold a masonic event this

Coming summer at the Robert L Taylor Youth Center which is in New Town oh and I’d like to see if we can make that happen between us and the um the Pha The Local PHA um Lodge So when you say pH he’s talking about Prince Hall affiliate Prince Hall

Affiliate Prince Hall affiliate lodges Prince Hall Prince Hall Masonry is the um is the uh the black community’s um masonry and it’s very well organized and very proper and um you know uh they they do they do a really good job in their masonry and uh they their uh Grandmaster um I believe

His name is is most worshipful Jeffrey Taylor I believe that’s his name if I understand correctly but he’s very committed to working with our Grandmaster yes now to see if uh if if we can get to that place and we are getting there each year we’re getting

Closer and I would high I would highly imagine within two years truly mark my words that have full recognition we will have full recognition and the time it’s about time 2626 finally full recognition with each other by the by the time I’m living in North Carolina exactly hey that’s

Another thing we have in common I’ve actually relocated to South Carolina and you’ve I think you already purchased your next home in North Carolina right I I purchased a home in Asheville North Carolina and I’ve been to Lodge in as this is great how this conversation is going because I cannot segue into

Attending lodges elsewhere and how it’s so important but yes I purchased a home in asille North Carolina with the goal of um moving there ultimately obviously I won’t do it when I’m in the East and um uh that that decision came as a result of of not wanting so much to

Leave Florida as it was that we wanted uh Four Seasons and we wanted some topography because I like to hike and ride my bike same here and um and I just um Florida is um a wonderful vacation spot I’m really enjoying the weather now the season you know I mean I was

Downtown last night I went to a fantastic play at the Florida Studio Theater La last night I’ll tell you line all about it okay um but um but it U I can just tell you that uh there’s it’s wonderful here during the season the Summer’s more heat than I want to Bear

Anymore I like I like the mountains I like the view of my back porch in North Carolina is a beautiful view of the Appalachian Mountains yeah so so um same here so I went I went to Lodge there you’ll be you’ll be about an hour to an

Hour and a half drive from where I live when you’re in Asheville so we’ll be getting together brother we’ll be get together yes and I’m here and I can tell you when you wake up and you see I see like a family of six seven deers just

Grazing in my yard every morning uh it’s a different life than what you have inid for sure but go ahead so you went to Lodge in Asheville right I I wanted to go to Lodge um in Asheville and my understanding when you go domestically I I not sure about the letter but I’ll

Talk about International in the moment but um so I contacted um uh lodges and I uh saw there’s a fair there there’s probably better than a dozen lodges in in in around the uh Western North Carolina area maybe even more in monkam County which is where Asheville’s

Located so I reached out and wanted to go and um uh was uh found that uh I wasn’t getting anybody to get back to me on the schedule so I reached out to Grand Lodge and through some emails back and forth I was able to finally connect

And I attended the builtmore lodge and builtmore Lodge is located physically in a building that used to be a church that was on the property of the uh Cornelius Vanderbilt who built the whole area yeah um and then um uh that Lodge has been in that building uh since

1953 and that Lodge has been around for a long long time and they have not recycled a master since 1930 there you go strong that shows great strong Lodge yeah and I learned a lot I learned a lot from them I did some things I uh I was

Really impressed when I first went in they didn’t know me from Adam so they took my du’s card and they took me in a side room and they had me um provide um do guards and signs they tried and they had me they tried me they

Absolutely tried me uh and um I passed the Masonic trial you were not denied and I was not denied and uh and I was admitted given entry and then a couple things I noticed on top of it um and I am obviously careful because I don’t

Know your podcast is open to the public so I won’t violate it this is for the public yes so be careful right I will of course of course so um uh I I I they I was I they wanted to make sure that everybody who was present was indeed a

Master Mason and they went through a process of making sure that was happening it’s it’s called purging purging is what they do in lodges making sure that everyone present are actual Masons before the actual before they before the meeting starts in the business and they did that they did that

In a way I was very impressed it’s not done that I’ve seen in our lodger in Florida um they did other things that were very impressive too they were able to do a a a moving in between the different levels of masony with in the same meeting and uh you know uh

Examining people for their proficiency and those kind of things all that done in the span of an hour wow and I think the most impressive part was after it was over we had dessert and coffee and so I have changed it in my Lodge that the dessert is after the meeting yeah is

Not before the meeting we’ve always done that at Sarasota Lodge and it definitely affords a whole different vibe because most people leave for sure but there are a group of people that just when you hang out and have those after Lodge conversations it’s really awesome really awesome Fellowship right exactly we do

Something else also at Phoenix which is interesting is that we um um in the agenda it’s called good and welf for but we after the gavel closing G we Circle up we all hold hands and we look to the left and we tell the person one thing we

Appreciate about them and that that Circle goes around and you walk away going you know you know it’s something and and remember we’re diverse and there’s I like that you know it’s it’s a good thing wejoy it it’s important to say that that you’re doing that after the state of communication you’re not

You’re not aling to work or anything like that no exactly and it can be after the gav drops and it can also be uh sometimes meetings are contentious and sometimes there’s personalities involved and it’s a good way to clear the Slate yeah right yeah the other thing I the

Thing I was really impressed by in North Ina was they did that Circle up but the senior Deacon rather than have that thing where you look to your left and tell each person what you thought them the senior Deacon recited the closing charge by memory and you know so we yeah yeah so

That was I was pretty impressed they do they level the lodge like we do or do they level it like they do up north at the end where everyone comes down essentially no no they they do it like we do okay it’s it’s it’s leveled you

Know it’s not same way that’s a AF and M AF and am it is I noticed something also that they they have a different system of communication between the people inside the room and outside the room those kind of things you know I know mean you know you know and I’m sure that

Where you are now and where I will be it’s it’s that way I think but I was also going to tell you about um international travel could I tell you about that well you just talked about like domestically the one of the great one of the great benefits of being a

Master Mason is that you can travel anywhere in the world and go to any recognized Lodge by your jurisdiction and sit as a brother uh in that Lodge and so you’ve done that domestically is what he’s saying uh which means he’s gone to other states within the continental US and visited those lodges

But uh you’ve also gone internationally and visited lodges in other countries as a Mason yes I have I have tell a little bit about that where were you and what I I I was uh we were planning a trip to go to um Africa and I wanted to visit were you

Well we went on a uh we went on a game ride in the in the choby national forest and it was the most incredible experience of my life one of it was up there in the top 10 did you Bush overnight no I didn’t no no we

Went for a ride from 6:00 in the morning till about 1 in the afternoon but um um it was up there with visiting anchor watt in Cambodia you know wow so it was up there it was uh but but anyway um the way it’s done in Florida is in order to

Um to be able to be uh a traveling man in order to be able to visit uh elsewhere that where they don’t know you um you have to go to your secretary and ask your secretary to seek a letter of introduction so that letter of introduction comes from the Grand

Lodge and um it is signed by the grand secretary and given to you so you have to so for those brothers that want to do such a thing don’t uh don’t rely when you’re traveling internationally on the strength of your dues card alone that’s not going to be necessarily the right

Thing to do so get that letter and that so that process you want to start at least two or three weeks before disembarking on your trip so I um reached out and was put in touch with the secretary of Lodge in Cape Town South Africa and um I reached out and through

Uh I I submitted my letter and then I received a summons to appear in Lodge you oh they gave you a summons they gave me a summons yep they gave me a summons and uh I didn’t really have a lot of uh dress clothes with me so I think I had

To borrow a jacket I just I hadn’t I had now now when I travel if I if I intend to visit Lodge I carry a suit with me you know I’ve learned that lesson but anyway um the U uh that night it was a similar thing that happened to Phoenix

Lodge it was the uh the the uh consolidation of two lodges so it was the installation that night of the new master so the brass was there from all the the grand lodges there was a representative of the GLE the Grand Lodge of England was there from London

There was representatives from the Grand Lodge of Ireland Grand Lodge of uh of South Africa um so there was four you know four very there was bag pipes it was a kilt there was a person wearing a kilt it was it was there was gauntlets

On the arms it was it was pretty pretty special yeah those gauntlets awesome yeah it was pretty special so um so uh this is an incredible building they have an aler they have an assistant Tyler they have assistant secret they have a lot of officers I never heard of and um

Uh the lodge room is beautiful I did I did uh I don’t know if you ever saw the article I sent Chris I’ll send you the link I can find it of my my pictures my visit to the LOD but anyway I haven’t seen that I’ll show you the pap it’s

Wonderful because it’s an old building that has been around since 17 something you know and it’s right where parlament is right on the grounds of parliament basically in Cape Town South Africa in Cape Town yeah yeah exactly so we we had the and a few other lodges meet there

And I took a lot of pictures I’ll make a point of doing that getting you those um but um I I went there and they uh welcomed me and I kind of w up with like a mentor that evening who I kind of HED around with but I I saw some really impressive

Things I saw the you know the chamber where they prepare candidates I uh which was just incredible um we’ll talk offline when we’re done about how neat this was but um but um I saw speaking of that chamber that you’re talking about um worshipful Steven Garcia and I have drafted legislation

That has been submitted to Grand Lodge in due form and in due time uh that hopefully will be read at our next annual Grand communication to allow lodges to choose to perform the uh chamber of reflection on entered apprentices uh or not nice um and so it gives some guidance and the

Brothers of Florida will have the opportunity to vote on that and I’m really hoping that it’s received favorably because the Grand Lodge is not in favor of it uh was gonna take all the brothers voting on it to get that to pass but uh I I had suspected you may be

Talking about something along the lines of chamber ref I am I am and this chamber reflection reminded me of a uh of a bank vault the door was the door was built in 17 something the literally and it was about uh 18 in thick and it

Was a round room that would be lit only by candles yeah right you know it was a pretty incredible space typical of a chamber of reflection and then there would be certain things present that would make you really focus your attentions on certain aspects that Freemason wants to focus your attention

On and the intent behind that for those that don’t know is basically to get in the right head space prior to being initiated a mason or raised as a Master Mason so um I saw that and the the uh the uh anybody who goes in the can learn

About the Masonic Furniture so certain the things that we’re used to in the lodge the symbols were in there and they were beautiful the flooring was beautiful the organ was gorgeous and it was just a really lovely lovely Lodge and we enjoyed it and um not really it’s

Really interesting so they they uh you know I’m I was telling myself to you know bring levity to the situation but you know they asked for uh there was there was Fells of The Craft there there was enter hes and they were all retired and then they asked the only people who

Should stay are Masters and I thought they meant Master Masons sitting Masters and what they metant was people who were actual worshipful Masters should stay so I wound up staying in a meeting and they they they they when they found out I was not a city Master couple people were

Cross and uh and the guy next to me said don’t worry you can’t un ring a bell right yeah so so not you know it’s not like you’re going go out and tell things but you know then we had terribly Secret in there did you feel like you got some

Kind of no okay a traditional thing then not just traditional thing but then then after that we went into the chamber next door which was where they served to meal and what was amazing was um it was almost like a table LOD at that point because there was a whole lot of toasts

With alcohol and I never understood the term they’d say gentlemen be upstanding I was like what I am upstanding no everybody gets up and they stand up oh you know right gentlemen be upstanding and then they hit it and then everybody up there and then they toast and you know we all

Had shepherd’s pie that was the meal and they offered they offered Guinness Stout which I I don’t drink so I didn’t drink this out you know but uh it was great you know and sounds like Irish LOD with your pie your Guinness drinks and it was really interesting though because I had

Taken the grandmaster’s PIN to present to the new Grand because actually The Grandmaster of South Africa was there and I was presenting a PIN to him from our grandmas at the time wow and I kept wanting to be a stand up and do my thing

And they fit me in I was the very last person right before the Tyler’s oath and by this time everybody was quite happy they were all quite they were all quite toasty you know and so I’m standing there giving this giving this fin to some people that were oh fans

It’s good that they warmed they warmed the crowd up for you before they warmed the crowd to the tune of about an hour and a half of toasts yeah you know I was uh so my last uh recording session was yesterday and I recorded with Jeremy

Barnes to creative theity app and um PE people have heard that before this so um hopefully you listen regularly and I can tell you that if you don’t I asked him to leave us with something Masonic not talking about about tech or any of that

Just like as a Mason and uh we talked about this before his one thing was please travel please get outside your Lodge and travel and here you are praising the experiences you’ve had in travel as a Mason uh you’re you’re literally speaking to his point which is

Masonry doesn’t happen in the state of Communications in your Lodge masonry happens out in the world when you’re traveling man and and your interactions with people you’ve never met and sh love and kindness to these people um and learning their ways tolerance and appreciation respect for our fraternity

Wherever it may be in whatever form it takes right that is and there’s another benefit also of traveling which which which is is when we are indeed distressed I was going to um I’m in the insurance adjusting business and I was headed to a storm in uh in um uh

Texas you head to flooding a storm in Texas a storm I was well because I’m an ingestor insurance ingestor oh okay and so we we work we work storms we work storms and so I was heading to a storm in Texas and uh there was no place to stay

So I called a local Lodge and I had a lodge a brother offer me uh either a place in his home or to he knew somebody who had a hotel they can get me a Hotel another time I was in the hospital in Asheville and uh the the insurance

Company was deciding how long I could stay and I wasn’t ready to go yet and my flight wasn’t until the next day so I had a Mason come pick me up and take me to the airport wheelchair and all wow you know and never knew this guy

Wouldn’t know him if I saw him today so you know so we are our our best helpers you can if if if you you know are in a situation you can always call a lodge and ask now you know uh they they can definitely help you um if you need

Things when you’re traveling and you don’t know people it’s really nice I I’ve had Masons you know help me out before and I will help them out anytime I I come to their you know their awareness you know whe whether they’re do or not I’m happy to help amazing

Whenever I can I mean that’s as we started in the beginning of the interview I told you I’m a giving person I like to help that’s something that people say and hear all the time like I’m happy to help I’m happy to help but when you say it and you’re Mason it’s something

Different um you know last year and you’re going to experience it this year as the master they contact you and someone passes away to arrange funeral services and so I had the opportunity to talk to many Masonic widows last year and something I impressed upon every

Single one was listen we are here for you now um the way that we show our love for our brother is to support you this is a tenant of our fraternity and so it would be our honor if you would call us if you need your lawn mode if you need

Your groceries picked up for you if there’s anything we can do we’re waiting for an opportunity to show our brother how much we love him by helping you and so when you say I’m happy to do it you mean you’re happy to do it you want an

Opportunity to show your love through an act of service to somebody now that’s that’s that’s true humility and that’s you know that you when you want to serve somebody else there can be no agenda what do you hope to get in return other than I mean there’s nothing you know

Yeah I mean you know there’s a thing there’s a thing there’s a thing in Judaism uh that talks about um there are there’s a term called a Mitzvah you ever heard the term of a Mitzvah I am familiar with this a Mitzvah is a Mitzvah is a good deed and there’s

There’s uh over 600 of them and one of the highest ones you can do is um to be buried in the manner of um uh anonymity which is important in the Jewish faith uh that’s what they talk about a plain Pine casket talk about being buried in a shroud being washed uh

The the the people that wash you are called the he kadisha and that is the Society of Friends and when you are doing that act of humility of Wasing your fellow deceased brother with others while prayers are being said you’re doing something for that person that there is he cannot repay you

Right there’s no way he can repay you so that is the ultimate Act of Brotherly Love yeah you’re doing for somebody I love that and so if we carry that into masonry a lot of faiths do W ritual washing prior to B the Native Americans did the Muslims do the Hindus do the

Jews do I don’t know if other faiths do or not but all I can say is that um uh that act of humility that act of service and we can do that in masonry today for instance I’m going to do something uh of service that that can’t

Be repaid I’m going to donate blood I haven’t donated blood in years we have the blood mobile at our lodge soon as we’re done with the interview I’m leaving and I’ll well once I eat something I don’t want to faint but but uh we’ll uh we’ll we’ll um you know

That’s the way we give back so Masons give back we do that’s what we should brothers we need to continue to do that yes because it is through giving that we receive only that’s right you gotta you got to get you got to you gotta if you

Want to keep it you got to give it away that’s the deal this is um uh people like to say um masonry takes good men and makes them better uh I I always have told people my take on Freemasonry is that it provides men the tools to make

Themselves better if they choose to use them because that’s a more accurate description of Freemasonry uh true but one of the quickest ways to improve yourself is doing things for other people that don’t involve you benefiting from them that’s how we improve as people is learning humility honestly it

Is a big part of becoming a better person and so well this is where the confusion of Charity and Freemasonry comes in because Freemasonry isn’t a charity we aren in’t a 5013 seat right right we’re not an official charity we’re a fraternity which is different

Than we we we we fall under we fall under the 51 C3 Florida of the Masonic Chari Florida but that’s for charitable purposes but we are considered a fraternity a charitable fraternity right so we’re not a charity in the sense that this is our driving purpose but right

Our driving purpose being to make good men better you can’t do that without acts of Charity and that’s why Freemasonry is well known for its charity because it’s just a part of our system of making good men better and charity the lowest form of Charity is giving your money the highest form is

Giving your time because can’t get that back like you said right you can get money back you can always make more money but you can’t make more time right exactly that’s exactly right so that that that that’s that’s a that’s a perfect uh perfect way to uh to wrap

It up well we’re not wrapping up yet now we got we’re an hour and 20 in and we do need to you know I I know I don’t I want to be respectful of your time but the last I do have one more question for you

That I wanted to ask you so I’m assuming this part will get Ed it out okay no no not at all this this sentence right here okay we keep it real man my guess you try to get away I’m gonna pull you back in this no no no no this is you’re

Listening to Chris and Mark ra okay my question for you is uh my my goals in the when I joined the fraternity and I saw how what I saw in the beginning was I want to become the master of a lodge and I want to do this my way H and and I

Did those things and now I’m satisfied I have no desire to seek any further office or positions or titles in the fraternity I now am going to be the podcast guy and the traveling man that’s my role in Freemasonry uh but what are your goals in masonry now that you’re the worful

Master for some people this is just the beginning of their Masonic Journal because they have many other goals uh so what are yours I’m curious well over the over the years I thought to myself I thought would I like to be a district deput the grandm or

Would I like to join the grand line and I’ve spent more time now going masonry has worked for me in the sense that it’s helped make me a better man and so I have I want other things in my life I want to go back to my writing

Because I am a writer same here and and um so so I also don’t desire further office yeah um um I’ve already uh in the corporate world when you get the tap or the nod which is like would you like to go up the ladder I’ve had that happen in

The corporate world I’ve actually happen had that happen in the Masonic world I was asked at Grand Lodge if I’m free to travel with the grandmaster’s party right and I turned them down yeah um uh I know they look for for capable people who are uh at a place in their life but

I also realized that um you know at a different time in my life I would have been so honored and yeah I’ll do it no matter what I wouldn’t have thought of the consequences well I like my marriage you know so so um you know it’s funny

You say that um we have a Mason in our district um I’m not sure sure if you’re familiar with right worshipful Ron babber I am very well okay so right where I saw him recently at the installation in uh in uh Peace River Lodge 66 he was the install he was the U

Uh the installing Marshall yes i’ and he’s good he is good yeah uh well I formed a deg a competition degree team to compete this year at the state level and uh after much convincing right worful Ron babber came out of retirement he is a what he calls a retired Mason he

Doesn’t go to Lodge he doesn’t participate in Masonic things but he he came out because he really believes that well he wanted to help my Masonic career he didn’t know that I didn’t want to pursue a traditional Masonic career but I was honored that he was willing to

Come out to help me um and and what he told me one one afternoon after practice when we were sitting quietly together was uh Chris I have to be really careful because my wife has been a masonic Widow for too long she deserves better than that uh because he was an incredibly active

Mason he won competitions he was a right worshipable you know District in he did it all right but that comes at a cost and and I and you aren’t willing necessarily to pay the price that it U no I’m not I’m not because because if

You think about it the one of the goals one of the takeaways of B should be balance balance correct right and and that goes in all life now I I am uh I’ve been invited to um be installed uh not installed initiated Eastern Star so I will this week I’ll be initiated Eastern

Star this week is your wife going to join you she she was given the opportunity and she’s declined so I’m doing it really more to support the Eastern Star I know there’s things to learn from it and um and and you know given the fact that given the and I’ve

Seen plenty it’s it’s the only Masonic appendant body that’s coed yes you know and um uh given the fact that we are states that’s true pardon me in the United States that’s the case it’s the only only co-ed Masonic body that exists here for us in the

States so I am uh they know that I’m moving and you know given the fact that that my focus now is entirely I’m duod um because you know I’m a member of all all bodies right but at the same time um I my focus is on Blue Lodge right now

When I um am done with this I would like to focus my efforts on Scottish right yes right I I find the learning incredible I know that you are also Scottish wri as well and um I find and it would be a neat goal to read morals

And Dogma in my life know if I can it’s pretty tough stuff yeah but um but I I really I when I heard that Scottish W was the the University of Mason the college masony yeah you know that that that that uh that Lit me up with

Something let me say one thing I also want to tell you that that about how I operate as a Mason which has taught me something we all have heard for years how the Masons were always the who’s who of the community right they were always the somebody’s the founders of this country etc

Etc um I always look at the character on a Monopoly game the little mayor little portly mayor with his tuxedo on you know like that I think of that and then my my late mother-in-law um gave me a 19 it was either I think it was a 194 or 1914

Monitor from the state of Iowa or Illinois or something like that and I read it they were the who who they were even in their speech mannerism actions and writing so I one thing I’ve taken away from that is I don’t make excuses for using words that are difficult to

Understand I don’t do it on purpose but I won’t dumb down how I talk right for anybody I’d rather them say brother what do you mean right lift that up to your level don’t yeah lift them up you know and and I’m not doing that to be snobby

Or intellectual or an elite I’m not doing that I’m doing that because we if we are masons we are supposed to be examples and rhetoric are two very important things to Masons exactly exactly so that’s why I try to use that in my writing I use it in my writing I

Use it in my discussions you know um you know I’ll you know the using Cate rather than drill into my head you that’s word for Freemasonry I heard it so many times that I I Googled it and I said Oh that’s oh what oh drill no yeah well that’s

What it means drill drill inate right ex ex drilling it into repetition exactly so you Lear and and for those that don’t know we know we’re not a sect and we’re not a cult it’s just we have a culture not a cult we have a culture it is a beautiful culture

Of love acceptance and um really accumulating as much knowledge as you can as a man and I love your brother that’s right I know you love me that we’re buddies love your brother tell you that I I want to tell you this because that you’re on you are

On this podcast and uh I haven’t been interviewing a lot of local masons that aren’t um right wores or huge titles uh you’re probably the first and let me tell you why um I moved out of state and I know you’re moving out of state and

When I told people I was moving out of state I discovered who my friends were and who who who I had transactional relationships with um and it became blaringly obvious who associated with you because they thought they could get something from you and who just wants to

Be a brother and it and that’s really the the goal of their relationship with you is to be a brother you quickly showed yourself to be a brother to me um and then I discovered later that you were moving yourself and I I wanted to uh prepare you that as that information

Comes to light don’t be disappointed because you’ll it’s good to discover who you have real relationships with and who who you have transactional relationships with and that will come to light as they find out that you’re leaving and that you can’t benefit their career as directly as yeah I

Was that’s true it was I was somebody whisper W council at one point and said well no you know play it down because nobody’s going to want to work for you and I’m like nobody works for me anyway I work for them but more importantly um that’s whoever whoever said that to you

Is the exact person I’m talking about it’s the kind of person that has mentality of transactional relationships right I’ve been blessed in my life to have also what are called time and space relationships you may know what those are but they like for instance when you go back to wherever

You came from up state New York and you happen to chat with you you know there there are certain friends I have Give an example my chiropractor my chiropractor um I went to high school with right and I was over at robarts Arena one day for a health fair I was

Just going through Dre and I ran into him and it’s like the 40 years that we didn’t talk to each other never existed that’s great we picked picked right up so I there there are I do have some time and space friends that that I wouldn’t

See them pretend I mean I’ve got friends right now in the laska when I lived up in Alaska years ago that I could just go to their house and have dinner it’s just like yesterday it’s like yesterday you know what this brings to memory this is another moment with worful Mark tishman

That I’ve never told him but I’m going to share now because it impacted not just me but other people so um we we started getting asked to do a lot of masonic education discussions uh that we discussed masonry openly on on this podcast and people in our local area

Started saying can you come and do that because we want to have those kind of discussions and uh you were at a Master Mason association meeting where we were having a masonic discussion and you you said something quite it made me think of things in a different way which doesn’t happen often

And it sticks out of my mind we were talking about Brotherhood as we are now and you said out of the blue you know you have to be careful because we have a tendency to when we like someone we say I like this about you or that about you and what we’re ultimately

Saying is I like you because you’re like me exactly and what should be more important is I like you for you that should be our Focus right right maybe you could elaborate on that point because it really in that discussion I think you raised a lot of eyebrows and

Made people think sure um the whole thing about um uh differences you can always focus in any group you can focus your energy on your differences or your similarities right because you can you can be a part of or a part from you want

To sit you want to sit as if you’re you want to sit there as if you’re you know you don’t fit in you can focus on that or you can feel like you’re part of the group I learned that working in the corporate world when

My boss went to lunch with one of my colleagues and I sat at my cubicle or desk being upset that and victim me that they didn’t take me and then later he said to me this isn’t how it works how it works is you walk up to us at 11:20

And say where are we going to lunch today okay right so or where you know where is everybody going and then make the assumption that you’re that you’re you’re included that you’re being you’re included so it’s the same thing so when you say I like your I think what it is

Is it’s very easy to especially now in our society with what’s going on in our in this country with the fracture divided it’s very it’s it’s very easy to look at the other as the enemy yeah so if you have and and it’s it’s unfortunate that that that I this is

Where masonry is not completely self imploded because of the rule of no religion in politics if that wasn’t there we’d have a lot fewer lodges I’m sure you know oh yeah so so at this moment at this moment in time in history um there are people that I would not

Normally hang out with right in my Lodge but I hang out because we’re brothers You’re a different story I hang out with you cuz I like you and I like you cuz you’re like me cuz I know we’re breaking our own R here man that’s okay but more importantly I would just

Tell you this I would just tell you that that um this concept of of being like somebody just means that you you don’t see them as the other yeah it’s not that you’re like me so much is is is that whole obstacle piece isn’t in there that

Whole security piece isn’t in there so and and just just also when people change in their life because we are human beings we’re like plants we change people you could say I no longer like that person and it may not be because you moved away or whatever it just means

That they’ve gone down a path that doesn’t resonate with you anymore right and therefore you choose not to invest your energy in that relationship in the same way you did I think that’s the safest way to say it yeah that’s a that’s a kind way of saying it yes you

Know I appreciate that and uh I mean it’s a good it’s a good we need to think about these things um because this is part of us improving ourselves is to recognize who we are as a people people because some of us we all have biases

That we can’t really help um it’s just part of being human being it’s it’s it comes back from our agrarian days when you would I mean I mean right now where I live you talk about the deer right in your yard okay where I live in Asheville there’s black

Bears right black bears are the other I am the other to them right I walk outside we’re not going up and saying hey buddy want to come over for dinner they’ll go I’ll come over for dinner I’ll be happy to come over dinner with my 4 inch claws yeah sure I’ll be happy

To come over for dinner you know um so exactly exactly so so the the point I’m making is that there are plenty of the other out there and the challenge in masonry and which is the opportunity as well as the challenge is to have all these the others become our brothers as

Opposed to our others I like that um I just made it up well you know you’re this is uh this is why we have a group of different people you’re you’re a little older than me you’ve you’ve taken more trips around the Sun you’ve had more experiences with than I have

And so you’ve accumulated a certain amount of wisdom and you pass that on to people uh so that I don’t have to maybe I can learn that lesson without having to learn have the painful experiences you had to get to that point you know I

Would I’m a as a as as a uh current sitting master and I will join your group of Past Masters we can always uh say what you do I mean perhaps people even in this podcast would not have known how to travel internationally had I not said about the letter in the

Secretary you’ll be amazed at how many things you’ve said today will resonate and people needed to hear that at this moment in their life I’m always surprised at the things people take away from this podcast and uh we do it because of that people need to hear

Things and they need to feel like they’re not alone um it’s great need to they need positive reinforcement about the fraternity and that’s why although we both had negative experiences I think we both we didn’t even have to have the conversation neither one of us wants to focus on those negative experiences we

Want to focus on they’re not productive can what can we do to talk about the future and I said I said going into my um to my year I’ve said at an officers meeting I say all the time and I learned this from right worshipful Tom Haber he

Said if people come he’s Tom’s good guy he’s good people you know he’s one of the most humble servants I know he is a great man and a great Mason and God willing we can convince him to get into the grand East at some point that would

Be neat you know I mean but anyway he uh he uh taught me that when you know people are going to come at you all day long with problems and he says brother don’t come up with a problem unless you have a solution and the other hand that’s right otherwise so I’m not

Otherwise I’m a sounding otherwise all I am is a sounding you’re just bitching if you don’t come with a solution you’re just bitching exactly there’s no point just bitching you better think about it right before you come bring that problem exactly I mean and and then what’s your

Solution and I’ve practiced it already even with people that I don’t necessarily get along and I said that and I said what’s your solution and the person sure enough came back with three solutions beautiful that’s beautiful you taught them to think before they speak which is an important part of being a better

Man okay here’s what’s gonna happen uh we’re over an hour and a half in now so I understand I have to cut you loose you can’t I can’t keep you forever uh I I do appreciate well if you were if your wife and you were making breakfast I’d be

There in a second and I will come back I can smell it and that is part of the reason I want to go uh we’re oh man you we’re both early birds and so we got up early and started recording before my wife woke up but I’ve heard her

Preparing something up there and I could smell it a little bit but I do want to say thank you for coming on the podcast um I really app grateful for being invited yes it’s our honor to have you here um and I really want to give you

The opportunity here at the end to speak to uh Masons throughout the world who might be listening to this podcast uh you know you’re now the master of your Lodge in Sarasota you’re a 60 something year old man uh at this point in your life and uh you

Know what would you like to share on the way out with those Masons out there listening just the everyday Mason who’s not maybe even an officer in his live she’s just a Mason uh what would you share for that brother out there and I’m going to do this so you have time to

Think and here comes the wisdom okay remember that what you learn in the lodge is not just to be carried in Lodge in other words you’re not there just to be on your best behavior you’re to carry what you learn out into your life into

The world and that is how you will make the world a better place as my grandmother said love is like sunshine there’s always plenty to go around very very good I appreciate the wisdom very important message for Masons m Freemasonry in your blue Lodge is training wheels for Life take the

Training wheels off and go right off into the sun set as a Mason out in the world uh right now the world needs you so thank you brother worshipful master for coming on the podcast and uh I hopefully this won’t be the last time we

Have you on I’d love to have you on again once you’re done with your journey in the East I know you’re busy this year I won’t bother you again but I’d sure like to talk after you’ve been out of the East about your year and how it

Feels to no longer have the bird now it’s a pleasure it’s been a privilege and an honor to be here and I look forward to being back and uh look forward to seeing you before then all

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