School and I became a Baptist because of the very idea of the separation of church and state and the idea of Soul Freedom this idea that there uh is no one to dictate to you uh your relationship between God and the rest of the world and that each person should be
Able to have the Liberty uh to find and discover for themselves what their own spiritual expression is uh it was the Baptist commitment to social justice and to Liberation uh that inspired my own commitment to this religious tradition and so I’m delighted welcome today uh the BJC our partners uh with the USC
Center for civic and religious culture uh the USC Noble forum and again the office of religious and spiritual life I’m delighted to welcome today uh as our moderator of this panel Reverend Dr naduma Smith popularly known on campus our students as Dr Juju Dr Juju uh and Dr Smith serves as
The assistant director of community and public engagement with the USC Center for religion and Civic culture the Reverend Dr Jima Smith combines her experience as a pastor and expertise as a community leader to help Faith leaders become whole Partners in the work of social change she leads the programming
For the sule Murray center for Community engagement and is the pastor of the word of encouragement Church a graduate of Pepperdine University and a host of degrees uh and holds a doctorate from United Theological Seminary would you join me in welcoming USC’s campus favorite the Reverend doctor the [Applause]
Smith well I’m thank you Brandon and uh it’s good to be back with you while we were here Sunday evening for Trojan Church um and so what we do know that this is a very special place a very special time and I’m glad to be here
With all of you and because of what is available to us we were able here on Sunday night to baptize I think it was nine individuals nine individuals men and women young adults adults seniors um and so it’s because of what is available to was um in this present age and so I’m
Grateful to have this conversation and to I’m just participating these gentlemen are going to leave the conversation oh okay there’s a difference oh okay go okay sorry I forgot to to finish the introduction please excuse me we’re we’re delighted uh as well on our panel to have today the Reverend Dr Joseph
Evans Dr Evans is the 10e Alfred Smith Senior andb professor in chair of theology in the Public Square and director of the center for truth racial healing and restora of Justice at the Berkeley School of Theology Dr Evans work includes Research In classical contemporary rhetoric uh and has written
A number of scholarly books and articles and the Reverend Dr Evans has been described as one of the brilliant preachers of his Generation by none other than the Reverend Dr Gardner C Taylor would you please join me in welcoming the Reverend Dr Joseph Evans and I I teased Dr evence earlier uh that
He is a a legend in Baptist circles so I was trying not to geek out earlier by the fact that he was here and then we are delighted to welcome the Reverend Dr Christopher Tay Dr Tay serves as the Director of student research and initiative management the association of
Theological schools a former English Ministry Pastor the Reverend Dr Tay was raised in the Chinese Indonesian immigrant congregation and the reform tradition and later ordained uh to Ministry by a Chinese Taiwanese Church in the Pentecostal tradition it public scholarship includes works on resourcing immigrant churches Pacific engagement leveraging evaluative principles for
Character formation and Theological education understand the unique mentorship needs of doctoral students of color and surveying the placement of diaspora IND divian communities among World christianities member of the 2016 class of BJC fellows Reverend Dr T serves as the secretary the BJC board of directors please join me in welcoming our Steve panel
Okay now it’s my turn so again it’s good to be here with you all and as I was saying Sunday was a special night and we know something special is happening and continue to happen here so let’s get into our dialogue um with these wonderful gentlemen and the first um thing that we
Want to ask the question is just share with us briefly both of you now we have one mic so the way we’ll do this is I’ll start with You Chris and then I’ll turn the light this way and then okay we lift it and hand it to you does that work
Works for f all right wonderful just because we don’t want to tear the machines so please let us know what informs you and how you enter into this work and this Conversation well thanks um this is a this is a great religion honor to answer the question but I also then need to to name the names I have it prepared here but interest of time we’re going to forgo the titles and everything that goes with it but I did want to say
Special thank you to Janna Louie Dr Saina D Reverend Dr Brandon Harris Reverend Dr Juju Smith and Reverend Dr Joseph Evans who I have privilege of working within our other work uh at Berkeley School Theology and the association of theological schools um but the reason it
Was important to at least name that uh the the public that is here in this space welc to you and those also online um the reason I wanted to to mention all this is because I enter this event acknowledging a web of gratitude that has identified names and places individuals and committees uh
Communities rather stories and Legacies and uh titles and vocations of of All Sorts as a second generation Chinese Indonesian American I enter into the space acknowledging the complicated histories leading to this moment and though the Immigrant Narrative of my family of origin uh is something that’s perhaps personal to me it’s something
That I acknowledge U and through which I acknowledge being sustained by a land that for centuries and Millennia were under the care of others ancestors as the only son of economic migrants who wished to move past the ethnic and to religious discrimination and political traumas of land of their
Own births I acknowledge the labor of so many peoples as we feel um my family U as we feel in our flesh what Isabelle wierson called warmful other Sons even as my family embodied the expanding Legacy of those Ronald Takaki called strangers from different shore of course the Indonesian migratory
Experience if momentarily singular just for argument sake okay is not the story told in wilkerson’s work on the Great Migration from the US South it’s not told in uh takaki’s accounts of transpacific hardships those realities still is unflinching as we need to be to name them and form my story and the
Story is shaping my multi-racial family of choice now they helped to trace the path of how I have come to this conversation as someone seeking patterns and finding Paradox I’m going to pause on my prepared marks there and say that the patterns and the Paradox are what bring me to this Space delicate you may have to come a little closer okay I can that all right lean in yes rather comfortable this way I well first of all let me thank all of you for being here it’s uh it’s a nice day to be in Southern California I came down this
Morning and there’s considerable uh difference in the weather in Berkeley and here although I understand you had unfamiliar in Planet weather just a few days ago it’s a beautiful campus the first time I’ve been on USC’s campus and uh really appreciate it I think all the persons
That Dr T Chris has uh recognized I share that but I do need to uh mention that Amanda Tyler and I have known each other for I don’t know how long but longer than two days three days four days and uh she’s a brilliant leader has extreme commitments
To religious freedom and I salute her presence here today and looking forward this fall her book will be released uh for critique of uh Christian nationalism and so we really want to be a part of that as thought Partners as we work along with her in that respect secondly
I need to uh recognize uh Reverend Louie um who is an amazing leader uh from the beginning of our conversations to now she has been U just a a concise precise on point down to every detail and so and I want to thank you as well I think we’ve recognized uh the
Administrative leaders here but where did uh I don’t know where he is now but uh Reverend Dr uh uh Rand um Harris is a bright light um he has a meor rise and we look forward to the work that he’s doing here and what he did not say when he
When he and I were walking and he was uh sharing uh I’m getting tickled he sharing my I’m to be a legend and I thought I don’t know if I like that yet because I remember uh saying that about other folk and now I’m in that place but
What I did say to him was whatever I’m doing he is doing it to he will be that among them and so I’m grateful for that grateful for you as well being with us and then finally I want to thank uh Nathan and Taylor who I met earlier
Today students at the University of Southern California and very pleased to see here thank you how did I come to this moment well the the the the title of this um Gathering is uh um whose country is it anyway that’s a good really good title because it is indicative of where
All of us I think are presently by that I mean U democracy a part of of uh freedom of religion I heard Chris Talk About Soul religion is a democratic ey and democracy is at the heart of my Mata theology the theology that I studied in in in seminary was it
Was good stuff but it was it was it was very formal and uh to be very honest with you very European um and if we think about democracy as a theology or the Theology of democracy then that returns me to uh my original root I’m informed by the black Social Gospel
Mov uh that is to say the Benjamin ma the morai wife John the Howard Thurman uh the elas um this people group uh formed and shaped my understanding of religion as a democratic act and so when we talk about whose country it is that further indicates that there is an
Exclusion of large people groups who um if they if they have a religion a choice it can be marginalized by what we would call frankly the white gays um and furthermore we want to look at some terms I’ll throw out because I think it’ll come up through the evening
We want to talk about political theology we want to talk about the white trap we want to talk about White America and we want to compare that with whites in America they’re not necessarily the same thing thing um the rise of trumpism which is probably the rise of Neo
Fascism but on the other hand we also have to be concerned with a a Theology of convenience that I would attach to neoliberalism so let’s explore these things together tonight and again I’m so happy to be with you um and I look forward to uh engaging with you wonderful thank
You so Chris I know in the beginning we were talking outside and I know you wanted to kind of lean in on and start to begin with as it relates to whose country is it anyway so I want to make you go ahead and jump on Me um you know I I got to be honest uh this is a great question whose country is it at anyway um this probably shows that I was raised by sitcom television or whatnot but the first thing that came to mind was Whose Line Is It Anyway yes I don’t
Know if it’s anyone else’s problem okay okay all right so for me if anyone doesn’t happen to know the premise of that show it’s fairly unscripted and the audience M have certain uh input and uh the improvisational character of the folks uh they’re they’re there to watch
Right are part of the genius of that show and um you know it it shouldn’t be the case that you explain humor because then you kill the joke right right but it’s the The Genius of improvisation either because of the absurdity of the situation or the genius of the
Performers and I want to say there’s something we can touch in that for us tonight because the there are as Dr Joseph was saying there are some absurd situations going on um but I also want to then suggest there’s a creativity that attends those who will not let go of the greatest
Ideal that this um stands for um I don’t want to go into preparent remarks for this so if I get a few dates and whatnot wrong I apologize for that right but uh if I were to internalize it just for a moment and I said a bit about
The Immigrant experience which was my parents rightly so um I was born in Lancaster I don’t know how many folks know where Lancaster is here in Ellen County but about an hour and a half or so we here in the Mojave Desert and it reminds me again of a land that was not
My parents to give to me as economic migrants themselves coming over to this country I think there was a bit of uh American Dream ISM going on uh I remember being a kid and seeing Ronald Reagan on the TV and being told that’s Grandpa re I mean in in the
Language you know which is an honor ific go respect someone older than me or something that’s Grandpa RI and so growing up in a place that isn’t so very at least at the time mult cultural uh multiracial um it was an absurd circumstance you know um what are we doing here um and
Specifically Chinese Indonesians and America like I don’t know how many hyphens you might need or or not need or what what not um but there’s stories that inform what you think is possible and What You Won’t Give Up in addressing the question right so that again those Comedians and
Improvisation they have to think on their feet given the absurdity of the moment and that they’re there for a specific reason which just to make people laugh right um this might make people laugh for other reasons too right but I mean the way again to kill the
Choke is to then get right to the point and say if I read it through my my my family’s history and lens and what I understand from listening to others stories then that statement on the base of the Statue of Liberty it was a blank check written to everyone who
Thought there was a space for them here uh again prepared remarks went butro right but The New Colossus instead of a masculine figure of Conquest would be a maternal type figure a woman who is Shining a lamp and it seems idealistic to point to that as a
Symbol but it’s not something I want to let go of it’s something that as absurd as it seems I don’t want to jettison I think I’m informed slightly by some of my time as a as a youth pastor um it’s not the absence of doubt that defines Faith but sometimes
It’s within the doubt that your faith is isn’t f um what I said earlier about finding patterns of paradox you don’t have to be a person of Faith to do that you just have to be open to seeing the patterns that lead to absurd situations and then leaning into the
Paradox of what to do now that you’ve noticed it that you’ve seen it that the times are what they are the question goes back to you whose country is it in and one last comment before I hand the the mic over right this question about who’s not to get all grammatical with it
Right but there’s a preposition there of of ownership that also troubles me just slly because it presumes it’s something that can be and has literally then parceled out to the right kind of people who have the U capacity as Citizens or or whatnot of a certain lineage to have
Land that can support your feet and so that’s a bit of absurdity too if we could from what I understand as a someone who wants to learn but doesn’t have any indigenous roots in this land what would caretaking look like what would sharing the space look
Like what would land back not as a metap for be what would abolition be if not just a few phrase what if this and I’m going to lean into the Christian side What If This Were gospel and then now how do we so the Who’s country is it Anyway is
Funny for a couple of reasons I say funny because it’s serious but there is a humor about it if we don’t if we don’t laugh about it I’m going to cry that’s that’s how I put right um but the who’s let’s not race um let’s not try so much let’s not
Strive for who can have a bigger slice of more pie but fundamentally rethink the pie itself are are are all people being fed I mean this is the your huddled masses this is the stuff about the Immigrant story that I think is most provocative even though I know I
Know that that’s not everyone’s and that there’s also lots of complications with um the migratory experience but for me personally that’s how I see growing up in yeah I spent uh like three my life California anyway perhap to mention that ear there you go thank you um you use the word abur and
I’d like to hear from you and you are a legend by the way in the preaching world just watch I know you’re not ready for that but it’s the reality so um for at least for some of us is true um but you the word absurdity came up um
And I would love to have you kind of give a little um redress if you will to that about the obery of the question and then also you know how do you answer or step into this question of whose country is in way that work no I can L
Up I I I will say that um uh I’m just going to be informal say ch has raised a very fine way to frame our conversation about this question Face Value the question is absurd and but it also leans into uh to to to even ask that question in
2024 is absurd secondly it is a Nostalgia and a Romanticism that does not want to face the realism which we must face the anachronistic view of the United States as a homogenous or for homogenous people group was absurd as early as 1619 uh and it is even more absurd in
2024 uh the notion of this uh make America great again is absurd uh on face value for somebody to say make America great again there people in my tradition would ask another question when was it great when you do not include all people at the table that would be a good
Definition for great that everyone is welcome and table uh so this nostalgic view of a Romantic Period that is an eonism of today it is out of Step it cannot help us uh and Frank is impossible now on the other hand what you don’t hear is make America great again is perhaps a
Euphemism for full throated authoritarianism to make America great again is to usurp the Democratic process that is to say as a matter of fact um we are those who support uh that type of uh perspective we have uh created God in our own image and
Likeness and we are God how dare you say that we are not and to say that we are not is to push us to a place to where if we cannot be God then we will usurp the process of democracy therefore authoritarianism is how and the only way
That the the old regime could possibly return to quote unquote making America great again so the absurdity of the question is self-evident uh but from the perspective of those who have enjoyed uh complete Authority uh since the Inception of this nation um but obviously answered is our
Nation on the other hand our response and I think you remember Dr Brandon when he talked about resistance rhetoric and by the way I should tell you the entire Berkeley School theology student body is watching us here today at least all of those who come in I know everyone in my
Class is watching because they have assignment when I get back to demonstrate that they are watching uh and but I want to shout out to the Berkeley uh School of Theology where Athens in Jerusalem do have relationship but that aside when we think about the resistance sign I think
The appropriate answer or uh reply uh to something like that is to say your Romanticism will fail if you don’t deal with the realism if you have just a vertical notion of of of reality or a notion of of religion or worship then you’re missing the horizontal world you and I
Live in you know uh coming out of Holy Week it says and Jesus sang A Hymn and went out into the Mount of olivs so he leaves the upper room that’s Romanticism that’s worship that’s recital of Passover etc etc but when he goes into the Garden of Gethsemane that’s
Reality that’s where his religion must be more than just ritual and we are in that space now as as people that we’re going to defend the rights of all people then we have to be able to share with folks that this is not a Romanticism we’re living in we are literally on the
On the edge of losing our Democratic rights and for Baptist that’s good fighting stuff right there we we rather we rather fight for that you can’t tell somebody how they’re going to worship you can’t tell somebody how they’re not going to worship there was an old story said that the in the
Church had fought for years to put a chandelier in the church over and over again for years they said we don’t need a chandelier most of us don’t know what a chandelier is and over and over again he fought for it and finally at the end of the this fight over years they
Decided to put in the chandelier and they took a vote in their Church conference and it was 99% of the people voted for and the man who had been advocating for it voted against it and everybody said said you’ve been advocating for this for years why have
You voted against it he said I’m Baptist somebody ought to vote again it that’s a good Baptist we’re not going to let you tell us and we don’t want you to tell anyone else what she or he cannot do and so we’ve got to get in the
Fight so that’s good thank you so I wanted to lift up um this question or not question but a thought um because you you talked about who’s and absity and one learned is to interrogate right the and so i’ love for us to interrogate the the ideal or the idea
Of who’s asking the question because I think that’s important too like the question is whose country is in with but who who who who’s behind what’s behind the question who needs to know this does that make sense sure does because Al I think that also matters so Chris and
Then there softball this one um see the the interesting thing again um that I don’t know if it’s a Sit common situation it’s it’s common it’s still in my head I can’t get it out probably won’t uh you know I’ll be think about it for a while but I think about
Actors in a scene they lose their place and they might have to ask Whose Line is it any and so if we use that as a kind of you know illustration we may have lost our place in the script of what this nation state was ostensively supposed to be I think
You can get really critical and and go back to well was it ever that was it ever supposed to be uh a space for the huddled masses and and the discarding folks and all that I I again I don’t want to jettison that that nice ideal
But if we get to the reality of it what patterns have we been seeing since the beginning and what paradoxes still remain with us today that as much as we would want to fight for ideals we have to wrestle with the reality that there are folks who will
Take advantage of a situation merely because it benefits them and they forget the place whether it’s in situational comedy improvisational sketch comedy or trading fors of jazz I mean you can you can disrupt the order of things trying to improvise too much trying to take over and Dom here the conversation
Trying to um modulate to a different key that no one else would have would prepare for except that when you’re with others who can meet you maybe we’re going to modulate you just back just a step if we have enough FKS paying attention to the patterns we
See but I think that entails a kind of Courage then to know not everyone you call grandpa really treats you like Grandma or not every story that your parents told you’re growing up or not every promise that you could have thought to make um is uh salic and I mean that in
Like a problematized sense um I a case in point and I I honestly don’t know what what to do in situations like this um but I you know I worship in a space where we have some uh decorated military veterans who’ve served and I myself have problems with trying to stay within my
Um anti-militarist commitments I know Dr Joseph you have experience with this uh survey yourself and so there is sometimes a Sunday will come up near a holiday of some sort um where Red Hats had emerged and the Brass Band will play what do I do in situations like that because I deeply
Honor and respect and disagree with some of my neighbors literal neighbors or figurative but in a worship space we might share a few um I I don’t think the answer is to to shy away from that find a different congregation that everyone else will just jve just like I am or you know
Drive with my my principles um but the question of Whose Line is it like did we lose our script I think my script if I if I found my line in this is to stay engaged and to not not turn away everything just because of one circumstance as egregious as I might
Think it is absurd as I have already said it is um just because that item comes up so the Whose Line can be asked in a critical cynical way but it could also be a way of helping the other reformer remember place in the script like you remember where we’re at you remember
What we’re here to do and if that can happen if you can like Quicken the life of what this country had promised that blank check I said it was written to all migrants at the base of the statute like if we could make good on that as
Idealist as as it seems and I am I’m hearing myself say it and it’s too idealistic even for me but if I really question myself that’s where it all comes from my involvement with the JC uh the fact I haven’t left that congregation or the community we’re in
Or stayed as long as I did in some of the other congregations that I served it’s because there were more important things that just matter of opinion and it was helping the other player in this improv sketch we call life to figure out whose line thank you to
EV so I’m going to take it just in a different uh way let’s let’s talk what whether it’s an attorney whom something called hermeneutic certainly preaches using Art and Science of interpretation and so when you ask the question whose country is it Anyway I think it just begins with locating the social
Location you’re going to interpret that from your social location so if your soci uh social location is a place that is from uh White Privilege uh you may say it’s my country it’s always been my country if you are a person from a social marginalized group that Answer could very well be different in fact if you an Insurgency to uh inclusion in this soci we just hear a little bit of a buzz I don’t know if that’s disrupting everybody else I IDE okay just roll but I think it has something to do with social
Location that and so if it’s social location also in some ways lends itself to uh political location how do you answer that question right um for example a first generation student at the University of Southern California teaches institution like this is quite different than a third or fourth
Generation uh student at the University of Southern California I don’t know this to be true but in general terms in my educational experience um I went to school particularly Seminary with people who were third and fourth generation uh students and uh that white Gaye with me is what are you doing here yeah
Um I was saiding I’m here to make a what you here to do right uh but that’s again social location and it and so it’s not just about country it’s about space it’s about institutions it’s about sororities it’s about fraternities and all of those different myopic parts of the whole are examples
Of that kind of world view so I would leave that with you you have to determine the social location and then that can open the doors for many other aspects finally I think also is a tribal psychology Too was a great sociologist a morous man I uh number of years and was a major influence of mar King and others and Dr Kelsey was one of the early religious Scholars I’ll call him for La what else call but he was very predict he predicted um what we’re faing
Today King did too Martin King talked about um a native form of fascism which today we would call Neo fascism um and he spoke of that but George Kelce called it a tribal psychology I don’t know any of the name of these shows on TV but I know in TNT
And other things they have these where uh they have this tribal psychology these these groups of people I wish I could name the programs I’ve never really sit down and watch show they’re not they’re not reality shows but they they have this they they have this Turf thing and
They’re all fighting for different types of turf and they are in some ways I think trying to mirror what’s going on in spaces in the country uh people frankly that they are mirroring are some people who visited your nation’s capital in January 6th who thought they had a right to go into to
Now let me just just the position very quickly about social location if that have been black folks oh who may have had a right in their mind to protest what’s going on in the country but if Black Folk would have gone and some of you Asian folk would
Have been brave enough to go with us you and I would be dead dead social location but don’t you think an ironic to the Absurd and to the human c those folks came in to take over a building the slaves build right right absurd absur yeah wow um I am
Enjoying this conversation and could listen to you both go back and forth but we also know we have that want to jump in like double DCH is it my turn is it my turn so we so if you don’t double D you got to like jump so we want to receive those
Questions yes we have in the room WR question yes so if you have any questions we want to post but as so as you do that I want to POS the final question from for the panel and then we’ll receive your question and that is and then we’ll let you go first after
Evans and we’ll With You Chris and the question is this um how do University students and lifelong Learners at any age engage these issues this absurd reality um that and patterns and cycles that we’re right of how do any of us engage these issues in a sustainable and
In nuanced ways sustainable and nuanced ways it’s okay now I could have gone first on any of the other questions but this one much so sustainable I’m going to pass that to Christopher uh nuanced ways look I believe uh I started with the Theology of democracy which I think is a eism for the kingdom of or King’s Beloved Community I think that’s what king was talking about when he talked about I honestly think that he was talking about a Theology of democracy which
Leads to what you and I would call today close that is to say that in order for a democracy to work everyone has to feel she or he has some stake in the outcome and when you exclude people regardless of their world of view it’s very
Difficult to have a democracy now I have not talked a lot of theology here tonight but I do make a demarcation between uh the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven it’s very nuanced in the New Testament the kingdom of God well let me digress and say the Kingdom
Of Heaven I I can’t do a lot about that uh I remember my pastor used to say when I was a kid he had no heaven to give us nor a Hades to send us to that’s up to the Lord but what we have is the kingdom
Of God that is the Augustine type city of God that’s here and now and we have um I think the obligation to try to create the best lives possible for people regardless of their beliefs whether it’s a religious belief or agnostic or atheist beliefs I really do believe that
I have my own deep deep convictions and I’m not threaten by anyone else’s frankly um I know whom I believe um but the Theology of De democracy um is something that I think is very important for us to Grapple with and if you are here uh with some
Religious world view one of the things you can do is advocate for democracy and secondly you today is much easier than when I started out I mean you you can literally write your own opad in wherever you want to write it uh but don’t sit on the sidelines get in it and defend
People and defend people that you really don’t have a lot in common with I think that is the most important thing that you and I can do uh if someone is vulnerable to an oppressor then you and I uh have I believe a responsibility to defend people whether whether you agree or
Disagree for me is personally irrelevant what is relevant is is that you see them as equally human as everyone else that I believe is where we should make our our stand that’s thank you so what can lifelong Learners University students do in sustainable ways um the the tricky thing about
Sustainability is that it assumes limits and there is that wisdom I wish I could Source it someone here can tell me the problem to go um something like if you want to go fast you go alone and if you want to go far you go together right and so along those lines
Um the there were there were a few things that came to my mind about how to do the sustainably and stay in the I don’t want to say fight because sometimes I can I can go a certain way tent the tend the conversation unfortunate ways but to stay within the
Struggle I think that’s a nice way to put it to stay engaged with it um I think it does start with what I mentioned earlier about limitations there there is a there is a humility that we all should come to to understand how we see things as important as they
Are the world VI is we hold on to the commitments that we we give our lives for don’ts be for everyone and there has to be this acknowledgement that we in our own persons can’t experience it don’t know it all um for some of us theists that’s the definition of God and
For those who would believe we are not God and to think that that would be sacri to claim it it would behoove us to have a not only intellectual Humanity experiential um even if it were to limit one’s own power I I see so much about um
How the US will position itself or as real as security concerns are how they are placed above another people group or the the interests or concerns of anyone else and I wouldn’t want to be the um the receiver of that kind of arrang if I weren’t in the situation of
Privilege um I think that’s a short way of saying the US has the clout to talk that it does in a lack of humility um and specifically some people within the US okay so there is a distinction between although sometimes it’s hard to see what the nation state
Does and what individuals do um so the the second thing I might say to on to that humility is to get organized um to have the commitments that intersect with others interests like working for someone else’s interest that has no bearing on your own that there is no self-interest whatsoever um
Is is this Folly for whatever reason in our in our world the the neoliberal impulse to capitalize on everything and to make everything most efficient so you can control it for your own game was that in in in our scriptures somewhere I I don’t know is there is
There a sacred text that would talk about that I’m not sure um so the humility leads to seeing others recognizing others and then actually making commitments that interlock your fate with the another um it’s a communal type of struggle that I think would be a dimension Dr Joseph which you said of
The Beloved Community it’s seeing others in the community who are not yet loved as beloved seeing ourselves as having a calling to be that force in the world as a person of Faith that’s how I see things um but I also then fully recognize for folks who have a different set of
Commitments their ability to see these patterns of Injustice are not somehow lacking in in privilege just because we worship differently or or not it’s um it starts with more I guess honest appraisal of what we want our Liv so I think to go back um you know one
Final Point uh I said earlier about that American Dream ISM then characterize some of my upbringing or some uh stories of people that I know I think the shadow side of it is that you can be possessive of a dream like that and that it’s yours at the exclusion of everyone
Else’s um but I also want to then caution what does Our desire uh do to us when we want the things that we see and know not to be good for us and not to be good for others so if we can Advocate on behalf of another people group we have no self-interest in because we see our our Fates are
Align then we’re further along in having a community that is Define by being let let me follow that for just one second I I want to thank excuse so I think just in the course of what Dr Christopher was talking about again I’m going to go back to social location and
Political location so on on the first hand I think I hear some in inter seexual uh inter seexual sexuality with uh Christopher and the American dream and going back to Romanticism so I want to I want to I want to go back and and and make as clear as
Possible when you talk about for example African-Americans growing up um the American dream uh was romanis yes but our our our hope and I assume it’s similar because that’s what I’m hearing you say um I will say that for the majority of African-Americans it is not to achieve the American dream to the
Exclusion of others I think our effort was to be included right uh alongside other folk we weren’t trying to like just have it for us the other hand and back to social location when I hear the American dream for other folks I don’t think it was to be uh uh inclusive I
Don’t think it meant that there was enough of the pie for other people so that backs me into um we um our conditioned to think of the the Romanticism of American Dream as something very material and I want to pass it to you today especially the students who are
Here others who are listening um the the material the materialism uh or let me just make it plain late and racial capitalism the commodification of the human body etc etc um I think you may want to uh Divorce Yourself from that I don’t think the American dream um
Defined that way is even healthy um I do think that uh the Romanticism of wanting to be identified as U uh first of all for many of us as simply as human beings uh is a very good start because the truth of the matter is uh for the
Majority of my life is regard are the things that you know I’ve been involved in I can walk out of one space where people will say you know Evans does this I literally can walk out in the street uh I’ll just be playing with you I can
Go to Berkeley today and and walk and students if I don’t have a suit and a tie or whatever and I’m walking in the street literally students will walk on the other side of the street they cannot even discern well that uh I already got what you you trying to
Get right I got what you trying to get you don’t have a clue but you have this sense of a person of my color and a person of whatever they have bought into the dehumanization part of me right now that’s absurd that in 2024 people like me are still walking
Around facing that um I’ll leave it at that but uh the the the American dream however you come to it I I I urge you to Divorce Yourself of materialism because materialism is why capitalism is why racism still exists and other social isms and other is about this sense of controlling economically psychologically
Socially politically etc etc uh people um if you and I can abolish if you and I can eradicate racism and abolish poverty I think we can now destroy a lot of other isms I think they a lot of them go immediately if we take out the control over um uh uh othering
People and eradicating the economic advantages that people enjoy by making sure that we have a permanent class of people who are living beneath or near the poverty line wonderful thank you both um for sharing and um what what’s coming up for me we’re going to want us receive you
Want to hand us the questions or how do you want to do this um but what’s coming up for me in this in this last uh as we gave we um address in this last question is um the that the zero some game mindset and that
Um thank you okay um zero zero some gang mindset would suggest that um we both can’t be well and live well but in order for only one of us can live well um and that’s it it’s not we but we both can’t do that we both can’t have that only one
Of us can live well which then continues and perpetuates so many other the isms and othering that we see um when we’ve actually found out in other spaces that um when we work to uh when we work together that everyone lives well everyone does better and there’s actually not a loss of power
But a multiplication of power um so that’s how energy works by the way com yeah that’s how power that’s how energy that’s how energy works I heard energy and I thought power oh I said Power yeah oh okay and that only one of us can have
Power and you know Dr Joseph and I were talking outside about um de Colonial Theory but really really stuff but I’m saying that that mindset to say that I I need to eat so someone else can’t is a colonial mind that is the uh formation of our own desire at someone
Else’s expense that we were taught I don’t know that this is innate any human person to see the suffering of someone else and say good for me that’s a learned behavior uh and so in so far as any structures that are are upholding that
Can be torn down can we get to work like should have happened already like abur in year of ourl 2024 more Common Era 2024 this just uh so just a quick comment about that power um when it’s broken up that’s when control can come in fascism can come in
And a colonial U frame of reference is imposed um but we can still find the will we struggle through this this isn’t the end of the story this is a permanent state of our world as you also look at the ecological realities of this world and say please
Let this not be our reality long term excellent um so let’s take some questions um the first question is how much enforcement of political preaching is in the law um to the revocation of the 501c3 Etc on the local state and um local state and federal assum or
Local and state level um if poty is a policy Choice how does this organization address the policies of the US I think that’s only two questions it’s two question questions yeah okay so you want to take the political preaching well so um I’ve I’ve avoided some things that
Has given me permission to say a thing um Mark’s gospel and this can be taught even in a literature class oh thank you very much um The Narrative different in story lines you need several story lines to make a narrative narrative points to pathology once we understand the
Narrative we understand the pathology of the people Etc Jesus comes into to capernium or as my WR an a PR Jeffrey hagra says to me kaeru he’s been there twice and he knows how to pronounce it now but um and he says repent H and believe the
Gospel and then if you read it it is the gospel of the Kingdom the gospel of God and then just the gospel showing you a syntactical arrangement of how one sees the gospel but what we can talk about today is is that the gospel is a disruptor of uh the regime
Uh and the gospel then is political because to repent and believe the gospel is to be a part of the deconstruction of Empire that is to decolonize one’s mind so to be born again or regenerated or whatever is a way of looking at the mind is to be
Decolonized right and so preaching by Nature if you really preaching is political period uh they did not crucify Jesus because they thought he was the son of God that would have been a little obvious yes they crucified it because they believed he wasn’t but they further believed he was a political
Leader so we know that Jesus as a historical figure was was a political leader in most people’s mind his his his his approach so we we have to Define politics or political theology or the church herself as involved in politics but to speak against Empire we’re not on the side of ire right I Wills make a commentary I’ve heard a lot of churches preach on Apostle Paul I dig Apostle Paul did you know in Acts I think is the 22nd chapter he was mistaken for an Egyptian so we know he was a brother Paul was a
Brother right uh as most people are brothers and sisters in the entire Canon that aside uh we can’t avoid politics but we do not uh want to how do I put this Christopher we we we are engaged in Politics As far as theology um and we may be able to influence
Policy but we can do that by not but we can do that as a church only because the nation protects us I’ll let uh the attorneys talk about The Establishment Clause uh but there is a space there to where we have the right to critique the state now the stuff I’m talking about
And stuff Christian was talking about in another country we would already and y’all being here we would be carried out and shot before the end of the day let’s keep that in mind yeah China or other countries but we would be shocked today talking the
Way we are so we have a right in this country to critique the state right he called you um the interesting thing about politics if we break it down as basis of sharing power sharing the access to power um I think that that’s why the earlier comment about finding coalitional strength going
Farther together is true because if there are all of these interlocking oppressions then why wouldn’t the Salvation from them also be similarly interal life they would be in such ways that our Destinies again are alive um but it takes a different mindset to desire that I think that we can um
Intellectually be convinced of something not not think it’s wrong not anti-scientific and yet that changes none of our behavior um has anyone been to a physician lately sometimes that happens you hear something about Behavior change about the realities that are it’s not that you disbelieve it it’s
That you don’t believe it enough to do anything about it um and so I wonder if the desire the malformation of what we want as a society isn’t um something we secretly some of us protect some of us who secretly want domination to be the storyline pretend that we’re doing
Things that aren’t contributing to it and in so doing we are secret agents of Empire you know we are actually doing the work of Empire um instead from a theological perspective and again this this may be there may be limits of how much this could translate if we I don’t
Happen to share um theological commitments but I think that there is the true The Good The Beautiful of God the ideals of God that then are deformed into a makeshift second re almost good enough almost could pass but not genuine and the kingdom or political power or structures of
Governance those are in line with that even the word empire even the word of Reign of God can in of itself be used right has been used uh as a means to take away um access to power where that was never the intent from a theological perspective
That was never the intent for everyone else to suffer uh based on those who um so I don’t know about the um policy Choice Bob is a as a as a policy choice is that right yeah I think there are questions as more for the organization what is the organization
Doing about this maybe you can answer that but but I do wonder about just again seeing the patterns I think that there are folks who are well-intentioned and yet Cycles tend to emerge again and again because of things like self-interest or lack of accountability um so as long as yet we
Are holding to that um commitment to one another I think even in challenging issues like property possible thank you we have time for one more question um and and in general this one is asking um on the in the with the question of oburity whose country is it um recommended resources
For learning after today recommended resources well first of all if this is the last question I want to thank all of you for being here and I appreciate the invitation to coming to the University of Southern California prior to my arrival here USC was the University of South Carolina but I
Digress but I really appreciate being here you all are war and kind um so let me let me start with what I think are resources first of all obvious the Baptist joint committee as a resource and I would go to their website and you’ll see just so many ways you can
Be involved in finding ways to address uh many of the concerns that we don’t have time in this uh setting to to Really address I think another place is the synthes project in Washington I want to raise for example the incarceration rates did you know that one in five
African-American men will either be incarcerated is incarcerated or will be incarcerated and that’s an improvement but the cycle now going back to patterns African-American females are now more likely to be incarcerated to I guess control our Reproductive Rights um slavery by another name uh the Poor People’s campaign is also a
Resource that I would suggest to you uh to explore um the doing really brilliant work um so I said the sensing project yes um and U Baptist Joint Committee for people’s campaign now those are three major uh collaborators that we seek to work with at Berkeley School theology in
Respect to the truth racial healing restor of Justice Center uh which are you know intersect with our commitments U we provide awareness we provide agency and access and I you know you go to our website uh b.edu um if I may just very briefly tell
You uh our faculty for example uh is so diverse we have um at least three professors that are fluid you know we have nine or 10 you know seminar is not a university so we don’t have as many uh professors as as others do but our affiliate faculty you
Know everybody in in Berkeley has a PHD frankly everybody walking around has a PHD in Berkeley Berkeley is full phds so we have uh an embarrassment of wealth of people to choose to come in and help us in that respect but on our full faculty we have Stu uh professors who are we
Have uh Korean professors who speak English and Spanish fluently we have um other professors who are of European background who speak fluent Spanish so we have one of the brightest faculties I think in any theological institution I’ve been involved in and in January or so excuse
Me I’m sorry in July or so uh our next uh review exposit would come out that is just in time for the national federal election to talk about s uh in preaching we’re we’re focused on Election we have several brilliant people who are doing it so I would say
That what we do is also a resource I want to turn it over by coming back to something that I think is important and it may up telling something that Christopher has said and maybe others there three things that I want you to know you prepared to copy Taylor here we
Go this is how an authoritarian takes over a nation the first thing they do is they create economic let me talk to they start with political manipulation Walter week it’s called the domination Theory that’s so you’re going to start with political manipulation and then secondly is economic exploitation and then thirdly and this
Is the one where we see our right incable friends on the Evangelical right playing their role is called religious legitimation and so if you can get a segment of the population who buys into make America great again for whatever their selfish self-interest is which I think we all
Know what it is is the fear of being uh a minority and generally people on the rightwing uh of of religion in this country have been carrying the water for their social Elites they have to negotiate space right because if you take black people out of the United States or if
You take all minorities out of the United States guess what the people at the lower end of the realm will be the people who are now subjugated by their Elites so let’s go over it one more time first political manipulation um we’ve had that forever in this country whether it’s George
Wallace um and others clearly now uh Donald Trump is uh very good at political manipulation but secondly it’s economic exploitation 1% of the American public controls uh 40% of income in wealth 1% 5% controls 67 to 70% of income in wealth so let us say it’s 70% for five
People that means 95% of us are wrestling over 30% of incoming and so the prophetic preacher Bob Marley rap race rap race is the human race becomes very evident and clear and then finally religious legitimation that’s Pat Robertson that’s the Southern Baptist convention and Charles Stanley and that
Crowd with the Moral Majority Jerry Farwell by the way all of them are from the Commonwealth of Venda Farwell Stanley and Robertson all of whom grew up at the same time and they attacked it in different ways to achieve results so if you can get them to think religiously that this is
Somehow from God then welcome to Hitler’s Germany yeah I’ll maybe narrow my thoughts in this area uh part of my title is research and the the claim I’m going to make is I say I say things that I think that sounds so idealistic that sounds so simplistic and
When I say we need more data it sounds so empiricist or positivist but I think it’s because data are the evidence for how we see things happening uh they are the evidence from which we can hopefully mutually agree a certain circumstance like the statistics that you’re pointing
To um aren’t to be the case they’re not supposed to be but what is this this this kind of income inequality um should be disavowed by everyone who has uh enfranchisement rights um period um yet we vote in very complicated ways we act and organize in very complicated ways if
We don’t have more information but reside in in some you know Echo Chambers or in spaces where we’re told what to to think and that’s fine no needs to fact check us I think will be um worse off and more easily manipulated by all of those things including the religious legitimation
Um it it will it will not Shock you that some of the fastest growing churches are in spaces where the population also happens to be decreasing that makes sense right um as as a simple example this is something that Ryan bery I think pronounce his name U posted
Recently they got they got me thinking along the same lines that if you want there to be change you would have to be able to point to something you could measure and so why not look at the kind of research that’s coming out and say peer research center and specifically
Neil Ruiz who’s head of the Strategic new strategic initiatives has been looking at disaggregating data for the Asian-American uh communities um which has not gotten to all of the spaces because of the dozens of current nation states that comprise Asia how many different ways of of defining who is
Asian-American they just multiply right but if you do not have that disaggregated data or at least the commitment to want to look to see whether this whole model minority thing is a is it a myth is it true true for whom and who has the economic access or educational attainment where are we
Lacking in certain communities where I think internally again the colonial mindset is to say well it’s not quote unquote us is the wrong mentality to have so let’s have data that is disaggregated that is emancipatory um that can be uh fact checked and held uh to account those who
Say they have our best interests so uh PE Research Center uh migration policy Institute um National immigration Forum uh public religion Research Institute drri um a lot of the work that you all are doing here I’m on the mailing list for uh for Murray center
And crcc so I see what you’re all doing I see um there’s there’s a lot going on that um needs to needs to continue um so ver narrowly can we know more not less let’s keep it up for our panelist this [Applause] afternoon thank you to all our inperson
Guests thank you to all of our online guests we’ll now turn over to R Brandon haris can you join me again and thanking our [Applause] panelists very quickly uh and briefly um we have a number of ways to further and continue this work uh if you’re present
Uh in person uh Dr Sabrina D is here from B BJC uh it has lots of information about their fellows program uh my students uh many of them have left but I’ve already given them the info so that they can do it uh some of my students
Are still here um but for other folks uh we invite you uh to go to bjc’s website to learn more about uh all the incredible programs that BJC is involved with uh and then we also have uh clergy and Lady United for economic Justice they’re here we’re going to give a brief
Moment for them to share about some of the programs available that they have as [Applause] well um did you want me to use the microphone or anything or just no speak loud okay hi everyone my name is City Ben I am a facei organizer with clue Justice
And hey everyone so my name is City Ben and I with clue Justice clue clergy and Ley United for economic justice so we are here to um uh educate organize and mobilize Faith rooted uh leaders and also lay leaders to for those for workers and immigrants for economic
Justice yeah so uh I am currently a member with the Los Angeles welcomes Collective where we are partnered with mayor Karen bass where we provide the hospitality the welcoming Center for Asylum seeking migrants that are coming over from the borders so uh in the beginning of the year and especially
Last year we’ve been getting many buses full of migrants from young to old families uh buses that that that pack up from 45 to 50 individuals coming over from Texas to Los Angeles and they are left alone like there’s no support no resource no nothing so we have come
Together with the city of Los Angeles with many organizations where we provide a welcoming Center where we provide the resources and the Services that’s needed from my legal from overnight Hospitality in fact one of my jobs is to connect with uh Faith leaders that have congregation that will is willing to
Take in migrants so like even right now you know on the subject that that we’re discussing and I love that that question that whose country it is uh because I am impacting myself I’m actually an immigrant that’s also fighting my deportation uh I am from uh I’m
Cambodian but I was born in refugee camp facing deportation to Cambodia and it’s interesting because the way I look at this is my country my home my family is here but yet I am facing deportation to Cambodia over some poor decision I made growing up being involved in gang that
Was my past life now everyone who knows me know I love Jesus know I love people and I love to serve the people so uh one of my one of the ways that you know I like to get people involved and I love like how both Rend was Shar you know like
Don’t just sit on the sideline participate know get involved you know get organized and one of the ways is that you can connect with clue you could you know talk to me or you can look at our website and see how you can get them all from from donating from volunteering
Time from you know accompanying the migr from just being involved period uh you know just in what we do so there are ways to to look at the resources and the services that we provide how you can get involved and also a quick announcement we have our young religious leader
Fellowship for this summer uh you know so any of you you any of y’all have students and all that that might be interested please we have Flyers so where they can you know get the tools to be a fi R organizer you know stand in solidarity with other Justice Seekers
And also uh learn how to organize with other multifaith communities so we are not just you know Christian based or you know um just um uh we are multifaceted when it comes to Faith you know we have a Muslim we have um uh you know Christian we have
Jewish you know our Jewish brothers and sisters so yeah so and also there’s a stien $7,200 stien for those who want to be involved so yes so I know I’m Gonna Fly myself but yeah so again my name is Justice and thank you all for this and
This amazing I’m honored to be here thank you uh just a few brief thank yous I really want to shout out and thank Jan Louie from BJC for together I want to thank you all for your presence in person or online uh want to thank Amanda Tyler the executive director
Of thank you H and to our panelist our moderator Dr Smith Dr Evans thank you all so much thank you for your presence this afternoon uh and continue the work of doing Justice in Li World thanks and have a great [Applause] afternoon So you
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