Where’s Robert welcome back to the Masonic Roundtable a weekly program where masons from around the world get together to talk about Masonic news and opinions in a friendly and social manner as a reminder the thoughts and opinions expressed here are solely the opinions of the participants and do not represent any Grand loud
Statements or positions make sure you keep your conversations open for the public and on the level to interact with us we love seeing you live every Thursday night in Facebook or on YouTube land the chats are always fun and just a reminder your chats may show up on the show
And as always if you can catch us live listen to us the next day or soon thereafter on your favorite podcasting app or in the replay you know me my name is John ruark I’m a past Master of the Patriot Lodge from 1957. in Fairfax Virginia next up we have Jason Richards
Hello good evening how are you I’m good how are you great awesome my name is Jason Richards I’m past Master vacation lodge number 16 in Coachman Virginia member of the colonial lodge number 1821 in Washington DC and also member of Lafayette lodge number 79 in Zanesville Ohio excellent excellent next up
Joe Martinez how’s it going Jeff oh hello hello merciful hi yeah negative negative two more months two more months life master and perpetuity four more years four more years but two more months so go Martinez worshipful master manasse lodge number 182. for two more months and um yeah member of other
Things other lodges uh Benjamin B French uh was there last night awesome group of bros um and guy and I’m already looking at the comments there will be bands happening momentarily but yeah Joe Martinez great to be here all that stuff great to have you awesome
Well here we go let’s get right to business and pay the bills thank you guys very much for being patrons who support the show and it’s rock you rock our socks um and um guys and gal not guys and gals Yeah we actually that’s true very kind
Ladies that are supporting the show as well so head over to patreon.com the Masonic rail table to keep this free Masonic education free as in Freemasonry is never free free is in speech I don’t know keep this show for a while that sounded very Grand lodgy yeah keep it going keep
It going we can be Freedom it’s yeah the freedom Ryan Flint’s like rolling around right That’s the reference yes awesome okay let’s now go too tarot card of the week so let’s bring up the tarot cam right Jason you got that you need a Tarot cam the tarot cam all right so uh this week we have the uh golden tarot of the tsard is an inner incorrect transliteration
Really of the Cyrillic yes it is SAR like t-s-a-r c-z-a-r went out of style like in the 1980s why do we care I love when people watch us together in a group that’s awesome that is pretty cool what’s up Bros sweet all right so today’s tarot card of the week is
The Queen of Pentacles ooh coin lady we had Queen of Wands the other time yeah let’s talk about uh queen of coins queen of coins yeah so Queen of Pentacles is always a motherly down to earth practical nurturing nurturing uh stable grounded like woman figure right so think about the female figures
In your life that uh are very matriarchal as far as like you know have their stuff together you respect their opinions right basically all of our all of our wives yes keeping the house in order we are not we are not this card no none of us
So yeah it’s a good card Robert’s here yeah yeah sorry I was yeah I think every when you were describing this Cardinal like I think it was my financially responsible Nana yeah right she’s holding my purse buying Christmas presents all year long generosity and opulence yeah you know what that’s I could see
That’s for sure because because it’s kind of like the top tier before you get to King of coin right which you know is abundance and all of those other things but on the feminine side it’s like you know in in the hierarchical structure of the tarot it’s like you know one tier below
But the opulent that’s a really great word for that card I think opulence very cool and the queen of what are you looking for Jason I was looking for the saint that the the Orthodox Saint that the queen of uh coins represented and I cannot find it Saint Cheapskate of Avila yes Saint
Discounts Friday is she holding her are you sure that’s not a pumpkin no actually can you can you uh bring the coin closer to the camera yeah Focus oh man so that’s tight because that coin that she’s holding is the same it’s a sphere and it’s the
Same sphere if you’re all at home you pull out your uh playing card deck and you pull out a king and you look for the sphere that he’s holding it’s that sphere it’s pretty cool nice yeah little Rex Moon the action yeah everybody all right well good stuff
So let’s segue into tonight’s topic which is on Masonic Oaths and obligations so tonight we’re going to talk about why do we have them what are they used for and some of the misconceptions about their effectiveness and should we even have those in the modern society that we have
So let’s Jump Right In oath right why do we have them that’s that’s the big question are they good for it’s a we can’t talk about it yeah I’m not allowed to say yep sorry sort so that’s a show good night everybody let’s find a copy of Duncan’s but mechanically yeah
Hypothetically but mechanically like they serve a purpose that is a little anachronistic because our fraternity uses these as devices to enforce commitments as well as kind of Hold Us bind us to the fraternity so I guess the to start broad like what are they what are they for as we
Use them today in Freemasonry so primary reason for their usage in Freemasonry is to encourage candidates and Brethren to keep the secret modes of recognition like don’t reveal the passwords don’t reveal the ritual work yeah that sort of thing right yeah at least you know at least from a
You know a a you know literal interpretation there’s there’s two elements there that I think we can take a step deeper like if that’s the onion you know the skins off first layer is of course that uh why is an obligation effective well that’s that’ll be coming up next
Right so I think that’s really something that we should focus on yeah well definitely definitely going to go down deeper but so we have the protect the secret stop skipping ahead RJ yeah I know RJ fine fine I’ll just well you got what like John was saying you’ve got the
Here’s your guard rails and then the next part of it is usually these are the things you should not do or do the affirmatives and the and the negatives right so what’s your thing yes yes so any any student uh Masonic history will see a lot of similarities
To the structure of the Masonic chart like the old charges right yes because these are things statutes right that we are supposed to do just in our normal duties as a subservient member of this fraternity this Lodge right this craft right so we have things that we should do
Um with our within our ability to to do it that there are certain things we have to respond to we have to um you know just treat treat the the order and operations of the lodge so for example right um we have to listen to the
Officers of the lodge right we have to when they are doing their job as officers structurally mechanically we have to make sure that we are abiding by that right so they can perform their duties right so that’s those are simple structural almost uh logistical almost bureaucratic I guess
He would even say just these are things you have to do in order to maintain a well-governed launch so protect secrets and keep order or some of the well two reasons why we have them and take care of your brothers right sure you know look out look out for your brothers
And they’re minions that’s true so then so not just following officers orders but then as other peers in the craft what are we um promising to to do in order to keep keep care of each other and treat ourselves like a fraternity and not just like you know a drinking Club
At the Elks or the American when you say that it’s really interesting because the show art that we used for this evening’s program was something that had actually been posted many many years ago when we talked about some stuff we were griping about this consistent or this constant sort of
Bickering that gentlemen were having on the Facebook land and they were like uh oh you’re revealing too much remember your remember your Oaths yeah oats all right and so we started joking that it was Honey Bunches of Oaths um chock full of some things that you can’t say and well and yeah
And so the funny part about this really was that when when John when you were just saying like uh to be you know kind of accountable to take care of your brother and all of these things these are all pretty Universal examples of uh what’s what’s in the Oaths and the
Obligations of a Freemason sure but also uh a lot of times people would just start hemming and Han about some thing that that they thought was a breach of the obligation of a Freemason and when I found I think what everybody thought was funny about why are there women in this Facebook group
Why are you putting stuff tattoos is that a masonic tattoo yeah remember your own so this is a so okay then the thing that we were talking about with Nick back in the day was this was one of those things that led into the conversation of provincial masonry
And we started explaining to Brothers like the true um Global sort of fraternity is very different and that there are obligations and parts of your obligation that I haven’t taken guaranteed yep same you know what I mean like I know for a fact looking at you Pennsylvania
Well our good friend Scott duball Pass State education officer Grand Lodge Illinois he got obligated in Indiana and there is something specific that he was not obligated to that I was and it’s nowhere in his ritual yeah you probably do know so but it’s but it is interesting right
Like this is the whole it’s the whole thing all these Oaths and obligations are there to protect a very wide variety of different you know promises it’s funny you say that for a universal fraternity we really have a poor job of having consistent rules well let me just put it that way
Uh but there are no Innovations in masonry no not none whatsoever and the landmarks are immutable and until they aren’t the next question is Okay so we’ve established why we have them now the question becomes what makes them binding right what’s preventing someone from saying I don’t want to follow that
Look at pritchard’s Masonry dissected it’s elaborate say more so masonry dissected was the um arguably the first and and yeah say one of the first Masonic exposes it was the first known um expose the modern Master Mason’s degree and it caused such an uproar in the Premier
Grand Lodge of England that because of it they changed around their passwords mm-hmm because they thought there were going to be you know Talons and eavesdroppers trying to get into trying to weasel their way into lodges yeah they thought we were like you know a midnight release party for the latest Pokemon deck
Or not but so my question is more of what’s preventing someone from violating those right I mean we we promise to do things Joe yes Dr ruark I haven’t answered yes yes so traditionally uh there is that you know regardless of how our jurisdictions treat our uh obligations differently and the words
Are different and you know in some places you get to promise some extra stuff where in others you don’t there there’s that Common Thread that it’s all bound under that belief in a Supreme Being right and I think exactly additionally and you know we could talk about the
Modern context of it but traditionally it was uh there were less choices when it came to Supreme Beings when you you know started in early speculative masonry in Europe for sure but um it’s that Common Thread that we all hold the belief in something greater than ourselves and the obligation is
Taken in respect to that and not to Robert or Jason you know not something at our level it’s something that transcends the mundane or at least it’s supposed to on paper yeah exactly so we we do make a a promise to God and and our Brethren like that
We’re going to to follow these right so that should be binding enough Robert yeah so this is like my whole interesting thing that I that I I believe there is a fundamental misunderstanding within the fraternity about the necessity for belief in deity the oath and obligation and um
Actually like when they talk about a belief in a life to come and all those kind of get encapsulated and they what they need to do for me is to further Define these things uh because For one when we say uh that you have to have a belief in a Supreme Being um
The ritual States and this is open ritual for Illinois anyway uh plane printed you could read it on the net it says that your belief in deity was necessary otherwise no oath or obligation would be considered binding upon you so from this standpoint the belief in deity uh essentially is not
Some sort of a moral code issue it’s one of two things it’s your honor bound oath to your creator exactly or it is a fear of judgment in the afterlife for having broken an obligation that you swore to God so it’s a measure of accountability right Divine accountability
Power higher than yourself so which is the only thing that can truly hold you accountable the circular part of this comes back around when I think well yes I believe in a creator I don’t think I would ever swear to my Creator and then break that
Promise that’s just not who you know a lot of us are right um a lot not all not all sure right but then the next question is what if you don’t believe in judgment then we’re left to oh yeah then we’re left to look at the obligation as swearing to your deity
Uh as essentially a uh a moral and ethical consideration rather than anything else and then further you can look at your um what we would call irregular and even clandestine lodges out there that don’t require belief in deity swear to something else and these are these are based on like psychological commitments
Swear to me yeah the Batman um your your formal accountability even we use social pressure even even if this isn’t enough right because we do have Oaths and obligations of which there are consequences symbolically that are largely uh moral uh what I would call uh social pressures uh for our small groups
Joe yeah I have comments on that so I that you muted yourself or Jason just like the evil yeah uh what I was gonna say was as you wish As You Wish um I was kind of uh I was hoping RJ would go there with with this conversation uh because
When I was referring to how people looked at Oaths traditionally you know in the 16th 17th 18th centuries shall we say in in our modern interpretations has a lot to do with what what Robert said um and the whole thing of judgment so I would say traditionally I think the
Overwhelming fear in most of our organized religions was a sense of judgment Hereafter right um I think that in the new agey sense of the term a lot of people have come to grips with just the fact that you acknowledge and you understand that there’s more to you than just this
Absolutely stunningly gorgeous Latino dude that you see on YouTube every week there is more than that right there is waiting for the comments um no none uh there’s more than than just this right so I I don’t think you need you don’t need the Specter of judgment
Moving over you to have an appreciation for respecting the fact that there is a Creator and that you were made for a purpose you know we don’t know what that purpose is or you know if you’ve ever figured it out but you know there is a reason why you are here and I
Think that’s awesome enough without the threat of getting your hiney spanked you know so then the next question arises if it was under the threat of a an existential um being or uh to punish you for the the violation of it and may or may not be relevant in that
Same way anymore why still do some Masons not follow through or break their obligations because they’re poopy heads something comes to mind here Talk Amongst yourselves while I pull up the quote all right off he goes into the archives well I’m scared to talk now knowing that
I might disagree with what he brings up well so why you why do you all will agree I guarantee it why do some Masons not uphold their their obligations um they took the same oath we did right so yeah and you know maybe maybe it gets to the point where that oath just
Doesn’t mean much to them but it meant something to me I intend to keep mine we all took the same one so no we didn’t well no we didn’t those were that are under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of Virginia dude all right I didn’t you
Found it I got it go for it so in light of Freemasonry being just a fraternity man crazy uh an observation I made was that none of these brothers referencing the ritual of this fraternities to support their claim is it just being a fraternity it made me wonder if they’ve ever
Listened to the actual words of the rituals and facilitate becoming a full member of its fraternity it’s hard to not conclude that many of these ritual words are just fancy but meaningless paper bows and ribbons on the package of membership somehow these brothers haven’t fully realized that words of our rituals are
Meant to teach real lessons provide real instructions and urge real efforts to learn and grow spiritually and philosophically end quote Chuck Dunning boom show’s over yeah so Chuck I think in this that just like sparked this this thing I remember reading this because I remember reading this and thinking
I don’t know that I could articulate the reasoning for why dudes consistently negate right attendance of masonry other than this sentence words are just fancy but meaningless paper bows and ribbons on the package of membership it’s like uh it feels icky even reading that it does but it’s very well I’ve
Been using the term lately at the Masonic cosplaying right we’re just going through the motions we’re going through the actions that are expected of us but we don’t internalize it right we’re not living it out we’re not living our obligations right we’re just we are not inculcating the tenets of the order
We’re not definitely not following the race with the meaning of your heel taking a step yes I mean that’s a problem right when we have Brethren that for all intents and purposes are still recognized legal lawful Masonic Brothers and yet they are either taking a different obligation or they are
Um not following theirs so then what do you do then right yeah so what if the obligations are speculative what if your face is speculative I don’t I think Jason just ended all of Freemasonry right now that’s the best fraternity we had I have I have spectaculative faces
I as soon as you said that uh John I was thinking of the conversation we literally just had in the Green Room where we and I’ll be super generic there’s a dude who uh bro a bro who we know has definitely definitely not lived up to the tenants of Freemasonry
And definitely broken his obligation absolutely I believed in half but he’s got the um you know he’s got the ribbons and the jewels and the and accolades and the you know he’s he’s done so much of this and that implementation trophy he’s been to enough crab feasts and pancake
Breakfast that you know it it’s looking like this man’s gonna get a pass um so you know you’re you’re absolutely right Trey Mason um you know I think that the institution of Freemasonry you know the administration of Freemasonry is definitely different than the the speculative transformative art that we would like it
To be you know I think they’re honestly two separate things so then the question becomes has the pinky swear basically uh exhausted it’s usefulness after 300 years of organized Freemasonry uh because we can’t if we say that that is a binding verbal contract the why don’t we just skip skip through the the
Workaround and actually just go straight to a contract like what if we actually made it a binding legal document that you know you are going to obligate yourself to and that would certainly I would hope have some people take it a little bit more seriously
And if not if they’re still going to be in the uh what are the words you use Robert the the the the bows and ribbons of masonry paper bows and ribbons yes if they’re going to treat it that way and then still not follow it now we actually
Can have some legal recourse I mean it’s still punishment based it’s fear and Punishment based of of a judicial system not of an invisible wouldn’t it be full start out there check this at NDA I love it exactly okay so imagine if you will a fraternity that’s gone from uh operative to speculative
That’s supposed to build the man philosophically and spiritually and yet uh doesn’t really know how to do that in today’s world other than measuring things from a tangible nature which would be like measuring one’s accomplishments by the amount of monetary contributions that person gives
To such and such a thing and they get a ribbon or a bow or a special medal right and then that person just becomes Mr Mason and that’s so great and amazing and yet uh the expectations of these men are still considered speculative and non-tangible assets or non-tangibly
Measurable but if you were to actually contractually bind them now you’ve hit them where it hurts both uh in both aspects of The Craft you’ve made Freemasonry uh no longer consider uh you know spiritual growth of thing right now we’re all just about the dollars the
Tangible things and uh on the other side to hold them accountable you now have dollars and tangible things as well not just the fear of a reprimand or a suspense function without limitation or expulsion yeah I say do it yeah I mean look we’re already we’re already
Shifting that way with a lot of jurisdictions now including a background check right we said for years the investigating committee was good enough now we’re throwing this extra layer of well let’s just let’s just double check right and make this thing a little bit more uh secure Jason uh how does that
How does that play into the dwindling Financial State of masonry now that now now now do Masonic charges and Masonic trials have to have actual counsel well they can yeah if someone breaks an obligation does you know the Grand Lodge need to take them to small claims that’s true
What if what if in stating the case the plaintiffs have to break their own obligations this happens already this is like we’ve got us we’ve actually had um instances in where a brother has broken his Masonic obligations and the Grand Lodge I which will remain uh nameless at this time and
If you really want to know buy me a beer um they won’t get rid of the brother expel them or whatever for fear of pending lawsuits we’re here we’re here already the UK had to deal with this that’s true we’ve been here 10 years ago so I’m not going to
Name the lodge but you may see me at it from time to time but there was uh there was a brother who was brought up on charges very deservedly because he did some things that you know in the South may seem commonplace but not cool in a
Masonic lodge so we’ll leave it at that and he got brought up on charges and to your point uh Jason he actually brought in a council an attorney um to defend him at a masonic trial which I thought was amazing number one wow I was like well damn number two
He was found not guilty of these Masonic charges and then he slapped the brothers that brought him up on charges with the defamation suit in civil court and he won and he won and these people had to pay monetarily out of pocket for defaming this person within the walls of
A masonic lodge holy smokes oh let that sink in in your body that already happens right so we’re already at that level to your point foreign which means it is just cosplay if you tell me I can’t play with you guys I’m gonna go to the real world and make it hurt
I’m gonna go tell on Mom or go travel to Mom well that’s what corporate world does but yeah well it means to work so so one question that’s brought up in the chat here is well would that hurt recruitment even further like well now I’m signing for something
Or or just yeah or you know what I mean you know what the intent is right that would people be a little scared away if they say well by the way you’re actually going to have to sign some legal documents some ndas I like the NDA approach into Freemasonry so
Um and then the non-compete so if we expel you and kick you out you can’t join another order you can’t go to LDH or you can’t you can’t create your own uh just Blackjack and hookers that’s funny I mean you can you just got to get recognized
Not if it’s a non-compete not if you break the NDA oh yeah yeah you’re right just call it something else call it the order of the glittery unicorn or something yeah yeah I think they already tried that up in Massachusetts it didn’t work all right I would join something that
Had glittery unicorns in it Where’d you say it was Massachusetts yeah all right yeah me too send me a link go I’m I’m there how much are dues if you’re active it’s free okay nice we don’t have a problem with dudes Dodgers there oh that’s a meme dudes Dodgers 24th and
A half century [Laughter] love it great show we used to have yeah all right so John what’s next on your list about obligations you know so it’s I’m trying to trying to see where else we can take this this angle or this question about the religious perspective
Yeah so there’s definitely that right so yeah one thing that often comes up is well you guys are obviously you know worshiping Satan because you swear Oaths you obviously swear you’re not denying that you don’t swear us and it says write in write in the good book here it
Says that you are not supposed to swear Oaths so therefore you’re the devil or you’re worse at the Devil and to that I say I did a little homework I did a little research in here what that actually means because uh that the problem with Biblical literalism as
Jason and Joe would dive into is that the translation is lost anytime you convert it to don’t tameless it’s not even a translation issue it’s not even a it’s just context right absolute context God makes covenants in the Bible here right so I’ve I’ve actually whipped out uh an NIV Study Bible
Here with lots of lots of text every text below here is is all commentary on the above so specifically we’re going to look at Matthew what are we here Matthew 33 to 37 all about Oaths and specifically you know it says uh again you have heard that it was said to
The people long ago do not break your oath but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made but I tell you do not swear on oath at all this is Jesus talking either by heaven for it is God’s Throne or by the Earth for it is his footstool
Or by Jerusalem for it is the city of the great king and do not swear by your head for you cannot make even one hair white or black all you need to Simply say is yes or no anything beyond this comes from the evil one
Okay so Jesus says don’t make an oath at all don’t swear an oath at all what he said but the context is important here right so um obviously he’s talking about um the looking at the the study notes here right there’s an old test in reference to Leviticus 1912
Where the Old Testament insisted that people must fulfill their vows uh people says not to take vows at all he’s particularly concerned about the pharisaic practice the Pharisees of swearing by something other than God himself to create a lesser degree of accountability so specifically verses 34
And 35 give us examples of how lesser objects by which some swore were still closely related to God but the prohibition apparently does not rule out all solemn statements about the truth of a matter since even Paul himself assures his readers before God that he does not
Lie so Paul swears before God that he does not lie what about the uh forger who wrote in forged Paul’s name we’ll get yeah we’ll get to that anyway that’s on the chapter about get DocuSign it’s five bucks and God himself confirms his promises with Oaths right in Hebrews
6 17 so that was also brought up in the chat right we have covenants with God right and rainbows but the problem here was that Oaths were being used as occasions for deceitfulness depending on by what they were sworn so it’s kind of like you know back back in
Like Elementary School would you swear on your mom that that you that’s true well no I wouldn’t swear on my mom but I swear on my Trapper Keeper you’re like Mom maybe yeah that’s what it’s saying is that um there was a pharisaic tradition that they would swear on lesser things
But Jesus is like look all these are created by God right so your Oaths are should still be binding and stop trying to weasel out of your promises make your yes yes and your no no right and so in any regular uh and well organized Lodge we actually do make our
Oaths and obligations upon the holy book of choice and before God and your brothers so we are making oath before God top of the line no deceitfulness like we’re trying to at least instill that uh well to your point it’s always two two hour personification of our Supreme Being
Right it’s never to my Bros it’s never to the lodge it’s always correct in the presence of everybody or within the walls of this thing but it is to your idea of a Supreme Being right right and it’s made within the Sacred Space if you’re not cosplaying yeah followed
By dinner and green beans yes or preceded or preceded by yes so yeah um so I think that’s an interesting you know point is that we make you know we make Oaths two two in front of a deity on purpose right to to enforce that
Um so you know so no we’re not we’re not devil worshipers uh we’re not um you know violating any sort of natural code by by making promises right we are a fraternity that makes promises to each other and none of them violate any sort of code outlined in the Bible so that’s
That’s another nice thing about it right we are warned ahead of time that none of the things that we uh we swear to violate this right so you got a little you got a little bag I got a little cute little bag here so cute carrying handle this thing is huge
I need something to carry it in that is cute yeah yeah yeah I saw RJ’s working on finding some good beams the show needs more memes oh yeah I had one up for you here well you didn’t post it get there let’s see share who’s that handsome car dealer
He’s a good guy he’s a good guy with the weird hands yeah that’s so many of us I don’t know what to do with my hands he’s like blue Lodge York right Scottish rides so many Oaths all right so if we’re talking about Divine accountability do we want to stray into
You know anything around you know more visceral accountability sure uh let’s penalties right so we do have the the guilt penalty that comes with violating those and we also then talk about explicit or implicit um actual file you know what will happen to you if you violate your obligations yeah in some jurisdictions
Yeah like Minnesota has right that’s what I was thinking right like we heard from Nick I think a long time ago he said something like they tell you what these are but then they say these are just under the penalty of like being shunned by my brethren yeah
Something goofy being not invited to the lodge pig roast oh man versus I won’t be able to spoiled again undercooked pork um yeah man so like Freemasonry is amazing because it was this Progressive moral science in a time when the rest of the world was really um
You know operating Under The King’s law and all of these sort of trappings of control masonry allowed for uh philosophy and the Sciences to sort of flourish not in all cases but there’s definitely a thread of that woven throughout the enlightenment of Renaissance and what’s interesting is at some point
Masonry let the outside world uh pass it in terms of its quote unquote I’ll say that progressiveness because you know you you can’t mention being Progressive without being called you know political or something but the idea here that I’m getting at is the outside world deals with this
I mean we’ve we just had people that have signed that took Oaths for government office that yeah you know they they took their Oaths not on a Bible do you know that every government um official whether like civilian or elected or not takes in oath an oath
And I think one of the the things that recently came up in the news was uh they took an oath on like oh something crazy like don’t I’ll have to look it up but it was something wild like Carl Sagan’s biography or something I mean it was out there go ahead and find
It we’ll bring that up yeah while you’re doing that um you know one thing you mentioned earlier about like Scott duball taking a different obligation that brings up a really interesting point because if you know the answer to the question of what makes you at Mason and you know that
Obligations and Oaths are different in different jurisdictions then the real question becomes are is someone less of a Mason according to the um transitive properties of Association right or because again if if I have an obligation that has five Clauses and your jurisdiction has four of those five clauses
But you didn’t but you didn’t take the same fifth the fifth Clause I did then we’re not equal like we did not promise the same things but I mean by by the literal definition so we have this thing called you know recognition and Amity across Grand jurisdictions
But it’s kind of a sellout because we actually have taken different commitments and different obligations yes so what do you do about that I mean that hurts my head I mean like from a like saying that whole thing so I don’t know well from ecological perspective by definition they don’t they have not
Taken the same oath of responsibilities that I have and so I can’t give them the 100 equivalent Masonic recognition of Brotherhood I hate to say it but but but by definition there is there are clauses that were either worded differently which again you could just say are different turns
Of phrase they say the same thing were there some things that just are emitted outright and that’s when I have a problem well I think I think to your point not that I’m going to agree with you because I don’t yes um so I I think this comes to as much as I
Hate to say it I think this gets into the example of the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law kind of thing you know you know because what’s not going to happen is We’re Not Gonna We’re not gonna have you know in a Virginia Lodge we’re not going to have
An Indiana only section where you know they get to sit in a corner uh with all the grumpy Past Masters why not that would be great people don’t shut up and just talk all day long we’ll just put them to them and then all the other
Masons can go hang out I think it’s it’s you know you were there you were there for the same reason the wording may be different because there are Innovations in masonry I know I said yes and things change over time but I think if if I that’s never popped into my head and
I’ve met masons from so many different jurisdictions and so have you that I’ve never looked at Robert and said Robert’s less of a Mason because you know he doesn’t have Clause 24. well you didn’t say that out loud I am less of a Mason um so check this out
Um perhaps most egregiously and to the Chagrin of many that takes us too far a Missouri councilwoman used a Dr Seuss book to be sworn into office in order to break tradition the one that I was referring to actually though was Dr McKenzie lightstrip swearing in uh in NASA she was the first
Woman ever to lead the uh the Maryland Space Center and when she was sworn in she was sworn in not on a Bible but on a hardback edition of Carl Sagan’s pale blue dot good book interesting it’s a dope book but this this is what’s interesting to me though
Um I I get the Missouri lady that is like in a world outside of itself that is something where she’s pushing back kind of against tradition and whatever in this case uh what’s your what you have here is somebody’s faith in something greater that’s only exemplified in the only text
She could think of that perhaps gave this to her is this particular book and what’s what Wilds me out is the backlash that we saw from many people traditionalists that it was considered like uh rude or whatever but the fact remains is that like this is her obligation and if
That’s the thing that identifies and binds her obligation to be solemn and sworn and locked up tight then that’s what matters yes yeah because now we’re getting into the whole deity question right yeah Supreme Being question which means we have talked about this we’ve talked about
That yeah I mean it’s I mean I’m sure we could all go down that path again but you’re absolutely right it’s you know what makes an obligation binding which is really the big question of of tonight so now we’re at the final question time so the final question time is tonight
Which is this is a fun one and you don’t have to take it too serious if you don’t want to if you were to add a clause to the oath obligations that you took what would you add were you given the choice right so this is something like hey you
Know I wish our grandma or our jurisdiction included this additional section that we all had to take right or that or that every Mason around the world had to take the same additional clause right so not we’re not negating anything that’s what makes this Masons but if we
If we were to add something to it give you some time to think about that I just can’t believe we’re at final question already I know it’s been fun yeah so who’s ready who’s ready to jump in and lead the lead the pack I furthermore swear that I will not be a dick
I was gonna darn it say I seriously brought that question up I knew that I knew that Wheaton’s law was going to be added in so so go ahead and tell us about will Wheaton’s law Wheaton’s law oh my goodness uh Wheaton’s law coined by Will Wheaton of Star Trek the Next Generation
Fame um it is very simple and it is just do not be a dick short and sweet yeah awesome thanks Jason you’re welcome I’ll I’ll let Joe go because he always complains about going after um Jason actually my answer already so but yeah no uh no I don’t honestly don’t
Have anything to add I don’t think I because the way I interpret the obligation and the way I’ve taken the obligation the way I’ve given the obligation to a bunch of dudes um it’s kind of like what what Jason was talking about before it is a an oath
To your deity in the presence of all these people who you want to allow you into their tight-knit group of people who love each other for lack of a better term right so it’s it’s you’re making a representation that you’re going to take that trust on of people who probably don’t know you
Very well but you know you you made the cut um in some jurisdictions you made the cut probably a bit too easily but you made the cut and just live by the things that you say and you know let your actions speak for you and so yeah I don’t other than Wheaton’s
Law I don’t think we need to add anything else I think we just need to maybe treat it a bit more seriously than just mere words that are repeated back to you sorry good stuff all right how about you Robert thank you um I would like to see verbiage contained within the obligation
That perhaps gives more teeth to some of the items that are contained within the charge of let’s just say an Entered Apprentice maybe maybe something along the lines of uh you know I swear that I won’t be a member here after of any organization that uh uh espouses the cause of
Any organization advocating the overthrow of the United States government by force or illegal means um because I think it’s very crucial wouldn’t I I think most all attempts to overthrow the government be by illegal means yeah they would okay and so here’s the thing I guess what I’m getting like voting depends on
Whose law yeah uh I think what’s crucial is that we’ve talked about this quite a bit in the last few years especially at a lot of lodges around here is that it’s not enough to say are you a member of any organization of which membership in the Masonic fraternity is
Not compatible oh interesting we ask that that’s it that means like you could be a member of the worst hate group on the planet but if they don’t care that you’re a Mason you’re cool I think it’s crucial to recognize like that there is a fundamental philosophy within Freemasonry and that you cannot
Be a member of an organization that is you know antithesis to that I would add something like that into into the obligation just because yeah make make it clear that’d be cool all right and over to me I actually have an interesting take on this too hot take
If you will as the kids would say um in most contracts you also have a termination clause and so I would probably say the only thing I would add is a termination Clause where if oh so what is termination Clause first termination clause in summary it’s a written
Provision an agreement that defines the circumstances under which set agreement can be terminated termination can happen before the duties outlined in the agreement are filled so I think what this would do is make it explicit that hey if you ever don’t feel like you can or want to uphold the obligation that
You took now we have a process to formally say you can now demit right we have a demit process already but make it clear that hey if you’re really not going to take this serious we want you out right we want you to feel like you’re not in it because you’re stuck through
Divine penalty no you can get out like if you anytime you feel like you don’t do not want to uphold those uh there’s Oaths and obligations then you know we allow you to to leave under good causes again we people leave that will yeah exactly people leave all the
Time through demits not payment dues Etc but we’re now just making it clear that this is what you promised to when you came in if any of those things change because hey people change life changes circumstances change um if any of those change for any reason then we’re now going to terminate this
Uh this structure right so because we’re not treating people as ordained right that’s a it’s a lifelong commitment we’re just saying this is what you promised if you ever feel like your promise you’re you’re you need to change your promise then you can always amazing
John no no no no no let’s get you out of here but let’s do it in the most friendly way so that’s erased existence nice quote I love it so that’s my that’s my two cents this has been a great episode I want to thank everyone for watching
So we’ll see you next week let’s keep uh see you next week and keep searching for more light have a good night Remember your oats Honey Bunches of
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