Welcome back to another episode of the corporate Cowboys podcast my name is Alex your host today Proof of Life today is Thursday December 15 2022 and in today’s episode this one’s going to be pretty much open form I want to say prompt that we have ahead of us actually asks
Um well it’s coming from our slash career guidance and the question is rather General and that it asks to those who have quit their jobs because of quote unquote toxic work environment what are the signs essentially this person is asking what are the signs to look out for
Of a toxic work environment of an environment you might be incentivized to leave to exit as soon as possible they’ve flared it with something called co-workers I’m assuming it’s because they would like folks to talk about working with co-workers working in these environments that turn out to be toxic so
The body says as such uh can you give it actually has a carrot pointing up can you give concrete examples please so they want concrete examples of a toxic work environment and then it says for context I’m trying to decide if I’m at if if I am the problem
Or the workplace and their location is Western Europe well even though they live in a different country on a different continent in a different Society with different potentially different cultural norms I feel like a lot of the principles for employment a lot of the principles for professionalism remain the same across the board
That being said I think the first I think the most immediate to the most obvious signs of a toxic work environment are going to be insufficient compensation not being paid enough now that could come back to the employee not having negotiated their worth and having signed onto
Whatever figure was just thrown at them at the initial offer but it could also be that they’re being paid below market value and that that stress that um insufficiency is compounding in the real life outside of work and they’re having trouble I don’t know feeding themselves clothing themselves
But that’s not so much a toxic work environment at work is it it’s more it’s more a condition of work because you’re being compensated for it even if it is not enough the most immediate that folks think about is an inept manager a manager who micromanages others
Who doesn’t let others work who doesn’t let others be productive I think that comes to to mine almost immediately and we just done an episode on that where um I believe it was uh just just the last episode if you want to take a look at it if you’re interested that would be
Season six episode 19. what is my reason for leaving work after two months right and then that one they also go on about how their managers potentially micromanaging them and and you know there’s just a lack of communication all around but this question isn’t necessarily providing us with an
Issue but asking us how to identify these issues now if I had them in front of me again for treating this like a consult and you’re getting 30 minutes for free because this is a this is just a throwaway question um we’re taking their question at face
Value and just given very broad very general concepts signs to look for you could also find if there’s some form of uh informal some kind of informal hierarchy it’s through our favorites between management and the staff that might be impacting the way you do your job because you could be doing your
Job effectively and somebody else could be less competent than you are and yet still you are treated or compensated the same or rewarded in the same way or the other person might be rewarded more but that might be because of an extra professional relationship maybe they treat each other as friends or favorites
Which is kind of why I don’t believe in having friends at work because it can skew your judgment on what productivity actually looks like and you’ll do so for the sake of what friendship for the sake of feeling for the sake of emotional bond and in doing so
You’re [ __ ] up business you’re not looking after business but it happens it does happen I’ve been in that position before I’ve actually um I’ve actually worked with someone who had to let a friend go and they gave me a story they worked together for almost five years worked together
This person was my immediate manager and I had been working with them with for some time and we had some Rapport together and we were able to uh speak somewhat openly I wouldn’t say we were outright friends at the time we’ve gotten closer since we parted ways
But I think that’s in the nature of how life works not so much our job because for all intents for all for all intents and purposes he could have fired me right but I knew this man to be a consummate professional and would have done so if
I was [ __ ] up productivity for him if I was holding the team back so to speak and he told me that he and his friend after graduating high school went into a company and worked together they applied together they got hired together trained together and worked together and over time began to uh
Accumulate merits right accumulate points toward promotion I would imagine toward bonuses even right but it was my manager who would get promoted first now I don’t know because I wasn’t there if this for whatever reason weighed heavily on his friend and that they didn’t even try
He didn’t put forth the same amount of effort that he did when they were both subordinates at a subordinate level right but he noticed that his work began to drag and even though they were friends and he did cut him some slack he noticed that after a while this cutting of Slack
Began to look like had the appearance of favoritism to the detriment of the company to the detriment of other employees other subordinates below him and he didn’t want that that’s not the image he wanted to carry he was a consonant professional actively working on developing himself as a professional
Of course he did what he could to coach his friend but I’ll say again I wasn’t there I don’t know how the friend took it you know humans are weird humans are weird sometimes they are grateful and sometimes they are not sometimes they are gracious sometimes they are not
This could have been one of those situations where if my supervisor was attempting to coach his friend to revitalize his friend’s work ethic his friend might have taken it the wrong way might have interpreted it as my manager preaching to him from a high horse I’ve been there before but I’m not using
My story I’m using my manager’s story mine will be for a different episode I just want to let you know that I’ve got stories on stories and I’ve got stories from others folks that I’ve worked with folks that I’ve worked for now his friend might have taken it the wrong way
That he’s belittling him in some way that he’s berating him in some way again I wasn’t there I don’t know if this was in public in front of others but knowing my manager I would imagine it was it could have been off the clock even it could have been in the office
By themselves just the two of them and he’s attempting to have a heart-to-heart with a friend but I mean you reach a point of no return when you put friendship before business the Friendship has to be worth it and if it isn’t it could be for a number of reasons
It’s that you’ve outgrown the Friendship it’s that the Friendship wasn’t meant to be professional and so they’re only friends they’re not Associates so to speak they weren’t meant to be business partners I’m not saying I mean they are mutually exclusive but they don’t have to be exclusive excluded from one another
You can go into business with friends and you can make friends through business but it requires that much more care and Analysis and consideration to be able to be neutral to be able to be logical and not let friendship get in the way of business all parties both parties because we’re
Talking about two both parties have to be aligned towards business so that the Friendship continues to be harmonious in business because if the Friendship is pulling in opposite directions not in the direction of business business falls apart and the friendship is liable to fall apart as well
And that’s what happened in the case of my manager after some time he took the proper steps the formal route to give him verbal warnings written warnings and ultimately had to terminate his own friend having been friends for years since high school worked together made their bones together on the job
I don’t know if the reason for the Discord was one got promoted over the other but I know my manager was a consummate professional and likely well deserving of the promotion again I wasn’t there so I don’t know if they were more deserving than the friend and it was only one position
That they had the jockey for both that they both had the jockey for that they both had to compete for and that’s not to say that another position couldn’t have opened up and they couldn’t have tag teamed that one so they could both be promoted in
The future again I wasn’t there I don’t know that’s only the beginnings of office politics that might be another sign of a toxic work environment the office Politics the culture how people get along who was the gossip how news gets around what kind of news is there a lot of fraternizing
Folks who go out a lot tend to share a lot and then there’s the drama that ensues it’s not so much a toxic work environment as it is a red flag but if it metastasizes if those problems they have to be problematic if those problems metastasize across departments
It could [ __ ] an entire operation it could [ __ ] an entire cup it can bring a company to a standstill over pettiness that’s why you don’t go in trying to make friends you want to make Associates competent capable people and then you be friendly with them you be considerate you be polite
You don’t have to be friends just be amicable there’s very few people that would stick my neck out for and some of them I don’t even consider friends let that sink in let’s take a look at some of these comments real quick because I’m sure it’ll be diverse in the sense that um
I’m sure it’ll it’ll be a diverse a diverse offering because it’s such a general question and I’m sure folks are coming from different angles I only gave a small handful but I think those tend to stand out the most if you’re not getting paid well um if the channels of communication
Aren’t effective right like if there’s micromanaging if and if the chain of command isn’t competent right you could just have inept managers who don’t know how to manage who can’t lead who cannot lead and just don’t know what the [ __ ] they are doing the first comment here says condescending backhanded comments and
Micromanaging to start I think that first one is audibly specific condescending backhanded comments yeah that sounds more like just a toxic relationship [Laughter] um there are some folks who utilize sarcasm and sarcasm as a tool very effective I think if you’re using it um to give comments it depends on how they sound
Condescending um this person could just be sensitive to these to these type of comments that are sharp sharp comments comments that provide praise and also critical feedback right condescending backhanded comments I those are those are few I mean really parsing that phrase out you come to learn that those type of
Comments might be the most professional giving you some of the good with some of the bad giving you your critical feedback criticizing you uh providing criticism in a constructive manner it could be Heavy criticism heavy-handed criticism but with a teaspoon of sugar to go with it
The next comment here says I was in a position where I was asked to manage people but had no authority to make decisions for my team my opinions and inputs did not matter and I was never included in any decision making these were the signs
I was just told what to do and if things went wrong I was 100 to blame extremely condescending and an outright mean boss that was my most toxic work environment again again maybe I’m not maybe I’m not understanding of what a condescending boss sounds like
Um I think a lot of bosses are going to be in a position to talk down to their employees if they are outright mean okay I get it if they’re just if they just act outrageous I get it but condescending I mean extremely condescending you’ve got to know how to communicate
Also back with the boss you’ve got to be sharp right at the end of the day you applied for this position and besides giving them a spoonful of their medicine of their own medicine which they could easily terminate you for you could Parry and strike back some
But Perry okay don’t just strike back because that’s an emotional response don’t just react but you could Parry and uh parlay that’s if you want to move professionally if you want to move like a corporate Cowboy you’ve got to learn how to deal with difficult people
It’s easy to think oh uh this person will get their comeuppance but if the comeuppance isn’t coming from you then when the [ __ ] are they going to get their comeuppance right now I’m not saying you do it directly right you break their kneecaps or shoot them in the thigh I’m not I’m
Not saying any of that what I am saying is that you can learn how to communicate your social skills can be honed to such a degree that these condescending or extremely condescending bosses become just another client in your mind you treat them as another client even if you are the employee
You’re servicing the manager you’re keeping them satisfied not pleasuring them no right I’m trying to get your mind out of the gutter also two birds one stone we’re not pleasuring the manager [ __ ] how they feel but we’re satisfying our job and we’re keeping them in check
Yeah and as far as being uh undermined I think or or being under uh underpowered not having the not being given the appropriate Authority I think that also speaks volumes because that becomes an issue that becomes an issue when you can’t make the moves for your team and yet you’re
Expected to shoulder 100 of the burden to be accountable for the success and the failure of your team when you can’t or have no control of the team of how the team operates I find that to be very disingenuous on behalf of the on behalf of the management on behalf of
The boss on behalf of leadership and you’re pretty much sending sending your your general rule into battle with their hands tied behind their back this is Corporate War you want weapons free you want folks to be able to to have some degree of control to be able to improvise in their own way
As a manager as a potential leader to lead their team to success otherwise you’re really hamstringing your own team somebody else writes here this third comment says at my work and in parentheses they put I just put in my two weeks notice people left meetings in
Tears all right I mean I guess it’s kind of funny uh that’s kind of funny but um again this might be one of those this might be I mean these people could just be soft multiple people left in tears okay I’m just going to skip that one multiple
Really multiple people left in tears okay uh oh this next comment has a bunch of points on here they’re saying people crying on their brakes outside of the building made us do OT because of their bad management uh the boss asking for feedback after finishing a project without accepting
Constructive criticism as an option okay I mean this sounds like an inept boss inapt management inept leadership people crying on their brakes I think that’s you know that’s what that’s idiosyncratic that’s what they do on their own free time if they want to use their 10 or 15 minute break to go cry
They could do that right but they got to come back ready to work I don’t know why I’m taking my boss’s side right now except for the fact that they won’t accept constructive criticism or they won’t at least consider it right if they don’t consider your constructive
Criticism and and defeat it right then it’s not worth asking for feedback if I ask for feedback it’s because I want to see something constructive right something to consider and then if it’s decided that it’s not constructive it’s not implemented but if it’s not if it’s not even looked
At why the [ __ ] even asked for it um PCS were named after their extravagant places they visited what is that PCS PCS PCS were named computers I don’t know PCS were named after their extravagant places they visited and that’s just weirdly written too after their extract or is it the after
The extravagant places they visited PCS and and then it’s PCS with an apostrophe PC apostrophe s what the [ __ ] is that anyways bad at keeping people to work for them so okay so retention retention was shitty and the only two middle management positions were occupied by two people that left after one month
Slash six months yeah yeah if retention is [ __ ] you can imagine especially middle management if middle management retention is [ __ ] if people are just cycling in like a like a revolving door expect the hierarchy from middle management to up to also be just fraught with [ __ ] corruption to be fraught with the drama
Those are some of the best places to work in they provided the best opportunity to just leverage your way up if you are if you were competent if you are apt for corporate War for what comes with the territory of being a corporate Cowboy operating with a cloak and a
Dagger a little skullduggery if you will that that specific situation where middle management is just a revolving door that’s chef’s kiss that’s Prime real estate for moving up for knocking out for taking over uh next point it says listening to P listening to employee combos over the
Camera I don’t have proof but I have a hunch that one of the bosses actually read my emails no way you mean to tell me that what you say at work and what you write over the work email is recorded is not yours I’m actually on board with the uh with
The boss on this one if it could be that the boss is wasting their time right like if they set up if they specifically set up recording devices to try and catch I don’t know um Traders to try and out betrayal to try to smoke out problem people
Um it could be that the boss is just wasting their time right but again that’s the boss’s time to waste and if the boss wastes her time on anything that is not business related then that’s on them to take on whatever consequences come from that their business will suffer has a consequence
But and I had this position before I was in a management position and my employees were talking about I don’t know like the [ __ ] football game in the past uh like the past weekend a football game that took place and they’re talking stats they’re projecting and forecasting
What future games are going to look like who’s gonna be where who’s gonna do what what how’s it going to go down the whole time mind you we were working at a restaurant right at a uh at a quick service it’s a Mexican Grill very popular for
For E coli after I left I will disclaim after I left very popular with the E coli variant but before um they’re they’re talking about all this sports ball [ __ ] right and the reason I say It’s Just Sports to me in general Sports is sports I don’t I
Don’t watch it a whole lot I don’t follow it a whole lot I know how to play most all of them I was all sports when I was younger um but this conversation is carrying on loudly loudly just back and forth between the two of them standing next to each other
And a customer or two customers standing in front of them that they my employees Were Meant To Be Servicing now if this doesn’t inspire any any feelings of of not ill intent I’m gonna say but any any intent to discipline in a leader in a manager I don’t know what will
But that’s a waste like that wasn’t a waste of time on my part to identify it and point it out and tell them verbatim to shut up and talk to the customer because the customer is like the customer is literally watching these two back and forth their head movement and
Their eyes keeping up with the back and forth of what my employees are talking about and my employees are not including the customer the customer that they actually pause their conversation mid-sentence and ask the customer would you like what white or brown rice or black or pinto beans right
And in between the customers making their options they are carrying on a conversation between themselves right so what you say I work should be work related and if it ain’t include the [ __ ] customer make the customer feel included that’s how you get good reviews that’s how you get returned customers not
Not just carrying on a conversation and the customer is just the Third Wheel it’s just an extra dick just chill in there the customer is going to feel like well I don’t know like these These people aren’t really personable these people don’t really care I’m treated as just another number
They don’t ask me if I want guacamole they don’t ask me if they don’t ask me how my day is even going they’re inconsiderate it’s like they’re not there to service me it’s like they’re they’re it’s like they’re there to collect a check now I get I get and I’ve put myself in
My employees shoes because I was exactly in my employee shoes where if the job isn’t fun I’m not having fun okay I get it you can make the job fun and at the same time develop your skills socially as a professional by including the customer that’s how you sell is including the customer
You include the customer you enthuse them you enthrall them into the sports game of the week ask them what their favorite team is throw a couple of stats around maybe one or two playful deprecating jokes say oh well my team is going to [ __ ] on your team playfully right or give them a
Little confidence boost damn yeah your team is doing great this season and the customer will be more than happy to add to add the extra expense of chips or a drink or something like that come back leave us a tip because they felt included and the tips
Are distributed and I mean the tips are important right especially when you’re on the line when you’re a low-level entry-level employee making more than minimum wage but you still got to make even more money to make ends meet especially when you’re living in a large metropolitan area
Where rent or the mortgages are insane so why would you why would you waste any time not hustling the customer that was a rant but I’d digress the next Point here is bragging about luxury items while paying your employees little above minimum wage I was living paycheck to paycheck almost
I mean sounds like you [ __ ] up negotiating plain and simple sounds like you [ __ ] up negotiating I granted that bragging about material [ __ ] any material [ __ ] especially luxury items bragging about any of that just outright bragging like not if you’re showcasing it for an employee like this is what they could get
But bragging about it really rubbing it in their faces I get it it’s shitty but that could be fixed by you negotiating your worth you upping your skills you do that personally don’t don’t ask for everybody’s minimum wage to go up because you will end up making relatively the same
In respect to everybody else in regards to everybody else and your manager will be making the same too how about you stand out and leave everybody else behind that goes back to my supervisor to my immediate supervisor the one I mentioned earlier having to fire his friend why
Don’t you stand out and get promoted the friend unfortunately got left behind whether or not that really weighed on their conscious and to start a drag on their feet and became an anchor to the company that they had to let go that they had to be let go by their own friend
You know that’s not for me to say again I wasn’t there but if somebody else is bragging that should be motivating you to move to make moves to be a corporate cowboy otherwise start engaging in a little corporate War yourself damn again it depends on on the type of
Job the industry the organizational hierarchy that you’re at the organization itself whether or not it lends itself to that kind of treatment if you need help if you need help a one-to-one our quotes are reasonable our rate is reasonable shoot us a DM we’ll set something up
We’ll set up a consultation you can DM us on Instagram actually at corporate Cowboys with a z the corporate Cowboys podcast is also on patreon there are multiple tiers the higher the tier it gives you access to ask questions make them tailored make them specific so that our answer is informed and personalized
To you to your situation learn to write learn to write in such a specific manner while at the same time not just giving not just giving away personally identifiable information learn to write in such a in such a technical way in such a specific way I won’t say technical write in a specific
Way that a professional giving their opinion can best give you an informed opinion the next Point here says a really bad time really a really bad time and project management no clear deadlines but if they gave you one it was unrealistic and God forbid you took too
Long it’s your fault we are behind yeah that’s just that’s just uh inept management um those uh I want to say a toxic work environment I don’t know I I feel like the notion of toxicity is dependent on the length of time you stay there and
The length of time you put up with it because if it becomes a recurring pattern yeah it just becomes a toxic relationship that’s the whole point it’s something that is ongoing because you remain there regardless of whether or not you feel trapped I think this goes back into personal relationships also people leave
People leave and are better left with nothing then sticking around with something that draws a deficit on them right if somebody really was soul sucking or if a job really was soul-sucking wouldn’t you rather not be there than have to show up and be like Oh boom suicidal today
I’ve been I’ve been in that position before where when I seen it I left [ __ ] all of that I’m not going to let them hinder my development as a professional and definitely not be a burden on my Mental Health but I get there are some people who who
Can’t sustain themselves who don’t know how to live by themselves who know little more I’m gonna be facetious here who know little more than to tie their shoes and wipe their ass but are scared to go some time without a job or are scared to be actively looking for a job
Because they feel trapped at their current position that’s that’s called being insecure that that requires self-help to a level that I’m not I may not be able to do so professionally we may not be able to do so professionally I say we may not because we could if we address certain key points
In their professional life but if it’s in their personal life if they have clinical depression I’m not saying that uh hormonal imbalances don’t exist but that requires professional that requires professional medical help that’s not what we’re providing we’re providing professional career help so if you took too long it’s your fault
We are behind yeah that person sounds like they’ve been in that and that [ __ ] storm before and then they stuck around to have it develop into a toxic work environment yeah no that’s not that’s not it um no benefits whatsoever what do you mean no benefits whatsoever I feel like
Again that goes back to you negotiating your compensation knowing your worth but I get if you’re brand new if you’re a novice and you haven’t done any [ __ ] research you haven’t done a look of a lick of research before you apply to a position um I mean that’s still kind of your
Fault that’s still kind of your fault research research research research before you jump in know what you’re getting into investigate you’re doing reconnaissance before you’re doing reconnaissance this is Corporate [ __ ] War you’re enlisting in whether you’re an employee an independent contractor this is Corporate War I’ve been in it before
I’m in it now you just have to realize it’s what you’re it’s what you’re born into and the day you decide to play the day you decide to get involved to actually participate as a professional is the day you recognize how much you are worth not worth the workforce is
Worth the workforce right now like half of the workforce ain’t worth is not worth minimum wage but that’s another episode uh the next Point here if asking for a day off be prepared to explain in detail why you need that day even if it is personal you don’t have to explain [ __ ]
Just ask for the day off if you have paid time off ask for the day and don’t show up [Laughter] let them know they’re managers they’re they ought to me like again you have to realize your worth in order for your Worth to action be respected you must realize it
But don’t expect your Worth to be recognized if you’re a [ __ ] employee you’ve got a [ __ ] attitude and you tell them that you need a day off for what for mental health because you’ve been [ __ ] all along come on come on humans are supposed to be the most resilient one of the most
Resilient species why because we can also think and communicate use logic use Progressive logic and tact but I mean apparently apparently it fails people uh somebody else says Made jokes about employee Mental Health I’m you don’t see me but I’m raising my hand right now I’ve made jokes about employees Mental Health
And I’ve kept them working why because I made them feel better what happens outside of the workplace you don’t bring to the workplace like what you do for me on the job I don’t expect you to take home I don’t want you to take home that’s a [ __ ] liability
So when you show up to work you’re working that’s why if you’re on the on the clock talking about personal [ __ ] to another employee either you’re including me or you’re including the customer you’re including the client keep that personal [ __ ] for off the clock on your break you can gossip and
Gab all you want and this isn’t towards any particular sex or gender I give two [ __ ] about what you identify as but while you’re on the clock you identify as working uh somebody else says latest edits I also remember they had interviews for my job while I had covid
What’s wrong with that if you’re out having covid maybe it dawned on them that they should have more than one person somebody who could potentially fill you your position on call if you’re not available maybe they’re gonna have a full-time and a part-time to supplement you maybe they’re gonna have two part times
Right in an Ideal World they would let you know hey when you come back because of covet and whatnot we’re gonna have a part-time we’re gonna have somebody else working alongside so that if you don’t show up they could be full-time or if they don’t show up you become full-time
That’s idealistic I get it but at the same time it’s meant for the manager to be doing their job as a manager and looking out for business exactly like yourself as an employee you ought to be looking out for the business too but if you get sick there’s only so much
Sick time or PTO that you can take right but if you’re still out still contagious still can’t get up to work what they’re just gonna wait for you you’re gonna feel with you’re gonna feel offended you’re gonna be you’re gonna feel disrespected that they’re taking interviews for a position you’re not even currently
Filling come on give me a [ __ ] break lastly they say here I don’t think my former boss is here so let me just say [ __ ] you and then they named them I’m not gonna name them but yeah um that person seems salty seems kind of sour seems like a [ __ ]
Pawn a peon you’re worse than a pond um not I think a pawn is worse how much time I got left 45 minutes damn y’all got a freebie for this one I was about to go down a little rabbit hole little Google rabbit hole find the definition and the origin the
Roots for pawn and peon and find which one is worse you know just the type of tangents that my mind goes off of goes off on regardless you want to find out look it up research investigate you have to become sharp you have to become unkillable you have to sharpen yourself you
Be the knife you be the gun you’ll be the shank if that’s all you have or if that’s all you need something quick something dirty this is Corporate War baby know what you’re getting into I’ll catch you around
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