Thank you for joining us another episode of the corporate Cowboys podcast as always my name is Alex joined by your co-host Alex today’s proof of life is Saturday March 25th 2023 Saturday of all days the Sabbath supposedly all right well if you’re not familiar with the uh The Forum of this podcast
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They want our advice they’re saying Alex and Alex how the [ __ ] do I get ahead how the how do I stop embarrassing myself as an intern that’s their question okay I’m opening my third eye right now putting some eye drops in but how do I how do I stop
Embarrassing myself as an intern I think just off of the off of the title you’re an intern yeah you’re you’re an intern it’s it’s a rite of passage you’re an embarrassment that’s why they have you there exactly so they can make fun of you so they could so they could
Teach you they could teach you to walk over coals exactly but when you first start you’re gonna be like because you ain’t gonna be able to [ __ ] walk on that [ __ ] yeah right but at least you showed up that’s the point you showing the commitment the dedication to show up and be taught
Something you have to be open to learn you have to be open to the experience this is true this is true now now granted if if the body on this one says like uh the environment isn’t conducive to learning like their supervisors is a piece of [ __ ] and not giving them
Appropriate feedback that then we can talk about well maybe the issue isn’t you embarrassing yourself but you don’t have uh or at least your your organization isn’t giving you the structure right yeah but we haven’t gotten there yet and we’ll learn soon enough yeah I think that uh
He is from the title at least I mean like you know you you sound like you have a confidence issue um the way the question is framed true it’s like no even no matter how much I’m failing at something I’m never embarrassing myself especially as an
Intern I feel like when you sign up to be an intern don’t you sort of assume you’re gonna be learning you’re at the bottom learning the ropes learning almost crash course learning on the job yeah exactly so every day is supposed to be is if you’re learning something every
Day and you’re taking in feedback how can you be embarrassing yourself you’re doing your job you know what I’m saying it comes with the territory you know already by the question I think this guy has some serious confidence issues he’s got to work out they might be young they
Might be inexperienced yeah but I I you know what and there’s a way I think that’s normal like when you’re going in to a new position or a new job or a new industry you’re gonna have confidence issues but a true professional it contextualizes that confidence with like
You know what are my expectations and when coming into this job and how can I not be confident in my performance but my confidence in other things like my ability to never give up hey guys my ability to to learn to retain exactly yeah to take in the feedback and get
Better and better every day um so what matters is that you’re I think as an intern especially if if you’re a newbie if you’re a novice is that you identify what you are good at and what you identify as and identify what you’re not good at right what it is
You’re improving on because I I think Alex is right that that sense of embarrassment comes from the lack of confidence of of never doing it right but learning to do it right is a process learning is a process and as an intern again that that just comes
With the territory it’s part and parcel of you being an intern uh the body on this one let’s start they write I’m in high school okay so they’re really young okay they’re really young they’re they’re new to the field it’s the confidence issues you know so it’s
Common for Young Folks to you know lack security exactly especially if they don’t have yeah and self-identity that’s why reflection is like super important for Success too is because like your mindset on like you know uh certain aspects of the world can really like help or or benefit you in a lot of
Ways you kind of get what I’m saying yeah no I mean they’re they’re super young they don’t have any actual uh benchmarkers or or professional history let’s call it but we know they’re an aspiring professional at least they’ve started their their career career pathway by becoming an intern first like
That’s that’s how you how you join the game that’s how you get in the corporate war is by getting your feet wet now we don’t know if they’re being compensated or if it’s a free volunteer internship right yeah and what I mean is like there’s a certain emotional intelligence
Just like it’s like an intangible like skill on your resume but like people get people can see it from your interview or from like your work ethic or you know just your interactions at work like your emotional intelligence and like that’s something that you don’t need to be like
Skilled at and it’s transferable to every job Alex is touching on some gold right now is that a professional is more than just their technical knowledge yeah it’s it’s it’s professionalism is is a whole package right it’s knowing what to do and knowing how to do it knowing how to
Present it knowing how to communicate it a professional is always communicating yeah and in communicating and not always the nicest way not always the the the meanest way not always the conventional way but sometimes all of those ways depending on your circumstances so like when I talk about that emotional
Intelligence I’m talking about learning how to deal with people um adapting to different and Personalities in different working environments to get a job done right and obviously you have to be like for example at the bottom as an intern right you not you’re not in a position
To tell anybody what to do or to take any responsibility for anything yeah like that’s the beautiful part about being an intern is that you’re not you’re not you’re not responsible for anybody else’s actions yeah it’s low-key uh uh a very unique position to be in I mean you’re not you’re not an
Entry-level employee right where they can just [ __ ] on you for doing a bad job for performing poorly right you’re an intern yeah having the title that’s an intern and now this is where we’re assuming that the organization is looking out for you as an intern and trying to develop you professionally if
They have that sort of program but having that title as an intern actually gives you additional access that some other employees may not have because you have a supervisor that not only you report directly to but the supervisor is necessarily looking out for you yeah in
Hopes or at least I hope we hope that you improve and become better for it right yeah with the prospects of maybe hiring hiring you on one day and I mean at that point all you really have to do is one work on being an improvable person there you go one you
Have to coachable yeah exactly you have to be able to learn new tricks you you have to be able to improve yourself if you’re improving yourself even if like even if it’s marginally sometimes as long as you’re improving yourself you’re gonna put yourself in a good position
Um and also you just have to be somebody that like the best way I put it is you got to be somebody that somebody would want to drink a beer with um okay you know what I’m saying like You Gotta Be You don’t necessarily have
To be a Beer Drinker but but you got to be likable you know what I’m trying to be social if you want to be I mean you don’t have to like go to Every social event but like when you’re so when you’re associating like you have to be
Likable you have to be you know kind whatever that means like folks want to have you around yeah you got to read people and you got to react to different people depending on the different personalities that you’re working for and again being an intern lends itself
To to being able to access not only your immediate supervisor and how they work with their Associates how they work with this or their subordinates but how you could work with their Associates how you could work with their subordinates I mean you play your cards right you could
Become you you could fall into your supervisor’s favor and when hiring season comes around you’re their first pick because you know the internals of the organization you know how it operates their policies their procedures you become the professional you once doubted you could become I mean you’re
An intern now but sooner or later you will become some you can become someone hireable someone who is a professional someone competent within not only within the firm you’re at now but at any future position okay can I tell a story man what’s up don’t tell a story sure sure
Um so I had this cousin right and uh well I mean he wasn’t my real cousin but we I know I’m a long time he’s a real good friend right on and um a brother from another mother yeah we started working at this job that’s a cousin yeah yeah brother from yeah
Um so he started working for this company right and he got me the job there six months after he started working there okay and when he started working there he did a really good job yeah right he just outperformed a lot of people right I’m just killing it
And he was trying his best trying to be the the best person there is and he was doing a good job at it I came along and I made it seem like I was working just as hard as him but I just wasn’t that good at the job yeah you know
Because I knew this wasn’t a job I’m trying to be at forever I’m trying to just Coast here part-time while I you know do some school stuff you know sure so you know but here’s the thing I always made sure that I started at a crappy level
And I continued to improve right like every time I improve a little bit every week I I improve just a little bit just a little bit and that is a tactic for some I mean it you may not do it consciously even because any position
You start at as a newbie as as the new person you’re gonna you’re gonna fumble a little bit you’re gonna stumble a little bit while you find your footing and then the Improvement begins yeah of course and and and so my cousin he started getting burnt out
Okay right yeah and then his and then he started kind of getting like you know feeling like he wasn’t getting well he found out I got a pay raise before he did so he got hella mad yeah you got salty because I started six months after because you
Were improving because I was improving it was gas analysis so they offered me a pay raise yeah yeah and then I was getting paid more than him but he was still even gassing out like he was still doing more work than I was doing okay but I was improving on a
Consistent basis okay so they like that and not only that that showcased in my attitude there you go the way I talk to people and his attitude was kind of like well now he’s getting paid more than me man like [ __ ] this I’m gonna try even less yeah and it
Snowballs and so if you have that emotional intelligence to understand how to deal with certain people like I know how to deal with with the with these corporate fools right all they want to do is they want to see improvables they want to see that you’re trying they want
To feel like you’re you’re you’re maximizing their dollars they want to see either metrics go up yeah or are you improving they want they want based on your metrics and they want good attitudes like at the base level the managers see the so like the owners they want to
See profits right but the managers they want to see like attitude you know what I mean like that makes sense you know what I mean like what’s your attitude do you look like you’re working hard yeah you know what I mean after all they are just managers and they’re
Literally just managing because they’re because once you go into management then you have other emotional intelligence where you’re like I need people to perform well yeah and I need to create a culture where people are encouraged to try hard and optimize their efficiency and few managers do that few managers actually
Try to try to dig deep and learn how to how to drive teams how to build teams and the good ones do yeah and if you’re an intern and you understand that process you could be like okay well as a manager what would I want to see I would
If I saw somebody continuously improving and trying hard he’s on the team damn we’re only on the first sentence and we’re dropping our our hypothetical High School client dumb gems yes I mean this one on a rant no this is that that’s perfect like it was a real world example where I could
See like it’s not how much work you put in it’s how you put it how you put in the work yeah like how you present yourself yeah and how you deal with people on on a corporate level absolutely you know absolutely all right so let me run
Through this body real quick because uh now we’re about halfway through not no sweat okay it’s a short one they write continuing here uh they recently started an internship at a pretty big Law Firm nice okay they’re they’re gonna become a little young legal okay gun all right
Okay my manager has really high standards I think that’s just the legal fuel to honesty it is I have sort of like simulation practice tasks to complete they write that are quote designed to trip me up as my manager says it sounds like I mean sounds like a good
Manager Loki yeah I mean his manager is trying to that’s because their practice tasks like he’s not actually placing them on a client’s matter yeah to [ __ ] up on a glance matter because a lot a lot of places will give you templates and then you just like can
You you walk through them as like a simulation of sorts yeah and they give you all the templates on the templates you’re trying to get them working off templates so if he’s trying to actually get him critically thinking and drafting letters then he’s actually trying to help the kid improve his writing
Absolutely I would agree so long as the feedback comes with it yeah so long as there’s feedback coming back to you you should be welcome to the opportunity and they’re right here I keep screwing them up for example in one of the exercises I have to draft client letters and I’m on
My third round of feedback sounds like a generous manager to me a third round of feedback some managers only do one and be like all right here’s another task give me back on that just red line at the one time and it depends on what yeah it depends on what kind of
Client letters I mean like I’d be curious to figure out like what kind of things he’s having because that almost seems like like um legal drafting yeah like like unless it’s like very simple things right like simple emails it could be anything from uh like you know here’s
Your bill to like you know yeah like invoices answers Vice letter you’re right it could be a solicitation a demand yeah no I mean and that all goes hand in hand and they’re getting that legal drafting experience early on but I mean by the time if they choose to go to law
School they’re going to be some some heavy writers some technical writers that’s what I’m saying is like like all of law school is just learning how to read and write better in a more precise way more precise more professional legal manner yeah then they write here he describes he
Describes my writing as quotes messy and completely missing the point I’m trying hard but despite his feedback I don’t know what to do I think our hypothetical client is taking it too hard it’s being too hard on himself if they’re young they’re in high school they’re High School doesn’t
Public education does not teach you how to write legally no right not at all so I I don’t think they should take it to heart that the writing now is missing the point I think the their objective should be internalizing this feedback and uh aiming closer to the point yeah
Keep you don’t complain about it on the internet just kid continue yeah it may continue working at like sometimes we still struggle to to uh you know when you’re looking at really complex legal issues sometimes it it’s even hard for professionals to to miss miss the point sometimes we’ve been at
It a number of years and we still learned something yeah and you’ll get it you’ll even get judgments from like judges where they’re like you you guys missed the point yeah this is and then he’ll go on and explain his his whole thing it happens and then you have
Sometimes your offered game but it doesn’t mean the game is over it’s just your next move yeah sometimes sometimes judges sometimes I just missed the point judges missed the point and the appeals got to be like no no no the game is never over you [ __ ] up that’s right
You know so yeah never never be afraid to learn man or be wrong absolutely you know you just gotta take it gracefully you know and and they continue here they write not only am I screwing up these tasks but I also keep saying slash doing stuff that embarrasses me in front of my
Manager for example a few days ago I got up thinking we had finished our conversation and he wasn’t done he had just paused I’m afraid I’ve made myself look rude and like a total dunce I think I think our hypothetical client is just too high strung like they’re they’re
And they’re right here their last sentence what can I do to redeem myself slash stop embarrassing myself help they write yeah that last sentence makes me laugh like why why would you need to redeem yourself as an intern as an intern you’re there you’re there to learn what slack even
Looks like before you pick up the slack you feel me like as an intern you’re there to learn the ropes not even learn the ropes because they usually put that on like entry-level employees you’re there to learn what rope [ __ ] looks like how the Rope is made you feel me
Before you learn to be before you learn the ropes yeah you’re just trying to see what they look like there’s no reason there’s no reason for you to want to redeem yourself yeah just just uh like I said earlier man just be somebody that you would want to have a beer with yeah
You know and keep improving yeah yeah and and being be the guy that I still want to be around even though you’re a [ __ ] up you know what I mean exactly because because even though I love that guy yeah unless you’ve been on the job for years and you’re still [ __ ] up
But you’re an intern exactly you’re an intern it comes with your title essentially yeah they wouldn’t hire uh I mean there is no hiring interns right but they wouldn’t pick up an associate an attorney right with like five years plus of experience to be an intern right because they know what or they’re
Supposed to know what the [ __ ] they’re doing now if they’re [ __ ] up if they’re [ __ ] up nobody’s having a beer with them yeah right no now you being the intern you should I think try and insert yourself in these situations where you are learning more and of course by learning
More you’re gonna be prone to stumbling you’re going to be prone to making mistakes but that’s part of the process it’s almost like a it’s a real art to be like to be curious to be well to be very like Curious and graceful graceful in in defeat yeah yeah graceful and failure
Because like you know that that’s one thing I’ve I’ve had to learn is like how do I deal with losing or or with failing or with taking feedback and at the same time being graceful at it yeah yeah yeah because sometimes you you’ll have to take that feedback in you know um
At first when you’re young it could be hard to take that feedback as constructive and not only that look like it’s constructive you know what I’m saying yeah I think the hypothetical client going to your point Alex has a leg up on individuals like that already who are who are narcissistic early on
Yeah because they’re I mean they’re asking how to improve they’re asking how to redeem themselves when really who they should be asking is their supervisor right we don’t know like the internal workings of this uh big Law Firm that they’re at we don’t know what the hierarchy looks like who they report
To what they deliver we don’t know the extent to which they’re receiving feedback on these simulation practice tasks right yeah those are questions that they ought to direct upward to their supervisor to another partner even because because note this be mindful that each associate or each partner whoever it is that’s
Supervising you might have a stylistic difference right there might be something that one partner does different from the other and you might be [ __ ] the bed with one partner but the other partner thinks you’re doing a phenomenal job right yeah it all could come down to some type of uh personality
Difference and that then comes back to you as the professional in training as the as the professional intern to then internalize how to adapt how do you like Alex was speaking on earlier how do you interact with those different personalities how do you adapt oh I got
A good one some times it’s really helpful if you don’t understand something or the way something like if you don’t understand feedback like you fundamentally don’t understand like what the [ __ ] this this this this boss is trying to tell you and he’s using jargon you don’t understand um ask them if there’s
Like extra material uh that you could read or buy to to help you get up to speed exactly that that is that’s the that’s your opportunity that’s the interns opportunity to ask the questions that help clarify what their role is as an intern yeah like if
If the legal writing is hard and it’s like it you you ask your your boss like hey is there some like um do you have any like recommended like or can you help me find some recommended you know some reading or some literature reading or literature
Um to help me improve my my legal writing because I’m in high school I’ve never interacted with legal writing they don’t teach us this in high school teach it and they might take pity on you right like damn this poor little cat comes from public education this is the future of our nation
So but more often than not they might help you out and be like you know maybe maybe check out this this or this and you know point you in the right direction and and then it’s on you and and then if you improve after utilizing those resources you’re gonna look like
The [ __ ] man like the [ __ ] you’re gonna look like the man like the [ __ ] like this [ __ ] came in and he didn’t know [ __ ] he asked for some materials I gave it to him and he learned that [ __ ] exactly now now look at them now now we’re thinking
About giving them an offer that makes you invaluable we might pay for this [ __ ] lost that’s what I’m saying this it makes you invaluable because then they understand what kind of person you are you’re a go [ __ ] getter and everybody’s looking for a go-getter and that starts
With you the the client the hypothetical client now we do want to give a disclaimer obviously we do this every episode that what you hear is not legal advice literally not legal advice don’t take anything that we say as as meant to legally bind us in any way we
Do not promote any wrongful activity any wrongful conduct man you heard the man even if even if we do speak on it everything we say take with the grain of salt I mean if this question fits you to a T if I can throw that t-shirt on right but
If it even it doesn’t but if it doesn’t look cold outside and even then if you need a [ __ ] jacket and all you got is is this t-shirt of a podcast then reach out to us directly our rates are more than reasonable we’ll walk you
Through it step by step we’ve been in it we’ve seen it we’ve heard about it damn near facilitated it that’s what I’m saying that’s what I’m saying I’m hiring determination hook you up with the Eskimo Jackie my boy that’s it that’s it we don’t want to lead you out on the cold
Let’s take a look at uh maybe one maybe two comments that were left on this post and with that we’ll wrap up this episode okay uh the first one the first one writes I can tell you without a doubt that this is the worst way to train slash teach someone
Shame they say shame is not an effective teaching tool and your manager isn’t someone I would choose as a mentor okay well first of all this comment is making assumptions right yeah it’s not like you don’t know that the guy shamed him exactly the feedback is not shame
Feedback is feedback it’s it’s criticism no doubt yeah but it’s constructive it’s meant to be constructive otherwise if there were shame in them what you think they they have this internship this intern there just as a punching bag like dog they got hours to build they lawyers
Work on billable hours you think I’m gonna spend any extra time on this punching bag of an intern who I don’t think is going to improve yeah plus shame is a shame is only available through consent yeah there you go yeah it’s a it’s a frame of mind it’s a it’s a mentality
Who are you shaming you ain’t shaming me exactly you want to walk in with that victim mindset then dog you’re a victim as soon as you come on as an intern nobody’s shame with me bro you ought to be shameful breathing I’m in here getting it bro I didn’t get the point
But I’m still getting it bro I’m still at the knowledge for it like let me let me let me try number four let me try number five let me try number six now they’re making the Assumption here that uh that they would choose him as a mentor and again if we had the
Hypothetical client in front of us we could ask them these follow-up questions like what what the work relationship looks like I love The [ __ ] mentors that are brutally honest with you yeah those are my favorite mentors as long as they’re competent then they’ve got all the reasons you’re right they’ve got all the
Reason to be a dick yes because any [ __ ] up could send the clients down the bad path could could make the client liable for some reason so if they want [ __ ] done a certain way it’s because they’ve been in the trenches yeah and if you don’t walk the right way if you don’t
Conduct yourself the right way in the trenches you’re getting your top pop up I mean that yeah exactly yeah you know being competent is is a must for a mentor but beyond that I love the ones that are that are just you know it’s it really comes down to
The intern whether or not they got the the thick skin yeah whether or not they got the the professional mindset to take that criticism and like you’re saying not view it as uh what’s it what are they saying shaming not view it as shaming yeah right and uh just finishing
Off this comment here they write my advice is to learn as much as you can okay good advice and remember that this is temporary okay good advice it might not be temporary we’re talking if if our hypothetical client this intern if they know they’re at a big Law Firm
There’s there’s fools in law school who will clip you for a big Law Firm job you feel me so you ought to be you have to feel fortunate that you got a big lot Law Firm internship even I mean right even people you’re right why would you
Want it to be temporary even people in law school like it’s hard to get a job at a big Law Firm you know what I mean we’ve heard stories like you’re a high school kid and you already got you [ __ ] connects into big law you [ __ ] me you better
Take all the criticism my boy you better absolutely take it and ask for more you feel me he didn’t ask for more the one time the one time you ought to no homo say thank you exactly you know all right and they are just finishing off this client this
Comment they write you’re going to go on to bigger and better things maybe maybe not but uh they write here your manager even if well-intentioned isn’t a good example of what you should expect or accept in your future career honestly it doesn’t sound like this person is in law
Yeah and if they are in law they’re probably you know I’m never mind I’m not gonna [ __ ] on their career but it sounds like they’re not receptive to feedback yeah right no I I get it for sure Alex any any last words for our our hypothetical intern client here hey man just uh
Just let them drop bro let him drop and uh take your feedback and have a good life that’s it man you know be receptive to it open yourself up to uh idea of being coachable right because not everything that comes at you in a in a hard and abrasive manner is
Meant to hurt you right this abrasiveness you feel is literally steel sharpening steel you want to be sharp dog you got to get abrasive sometimes that’s a fact of life take care of yourselves we’ll catch you next time peace
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