What’s up fam welcome to another episode of the corporate Cowboys podcast my name is Alex and I’m a little under the weather but [ __ ] y’all need some Proof of Life today is Tuesday November 22nd 2022 and I figured if I’m going to uh if I’m going to be if I’m going to stay
In might as well give y’all um an episode for you to mull over during this holiday season this one we’re going to keep it to uh 30 minutes a little 30 minute consultation but it may go over or maybe a little under depending on what the question is
And how much information we have to work with now this one is coming out of r slash career guidance and this redditor is asking in regards to recruiting recruiting positions so recruiters asking me that’s how they write it a recruiter is asking me not to ask the hiring manager about
Pay or benefits question mark and they are asking for advice they’re requesting advice for this one and again I don’t knock I don’t knock Reddit because it could be a a good source for advice and for professional opinions but every now and then you do get trolls you know
It’s to be understood it is the internet and it’s free so anybody can access it and just [ __ ] around now off top they include an edit and edit that says I did want to say that this is an I.T contract job in Michigan also I’m amazed how much responses this post got
And to say hi everyone I finally found myself a contract Tech job and I went through the pre-screening I passed and was told the hiring manager wanted to do an interview with me the recruiter for this company was very nice and helpful I got an email from another recruiter
Saying that the recruiter I was talking to was out of the office and I understand since it’s the weekend I got some nice guidelines for what to ask the manager and pointers and so far I was having positive thoughts about this job until I saw this in the email foreign
Do not ask about pay or benefits as those questions should be directed to myself now don’t get me wrong I didn’t know what to think of this and seeing this felt like a red flag I mean I know the pay because it was disclosed to me on
The job listing and confirmed by the recruiter I don’t know if I’m overthinking this or if I should say something because I remember hearing about the nrla allowing wage discussion but I don’t know if it applies in this scenario so and that makes sense I suppose that makes sense that they’re not familiar
With the recruitment process and the recruitment process is totally different from being hired in-house typically recruiters work in a department separate from from the hiring committee they work in an apartment separate from Human Resources sometimes companies might Outsource recruitment so as to uh as to get talent for the company it’s
Not unheard of now to do that basic recruiting basic recruitment they are in touch with uh with those components of an organization that determine and decide how much to pay an employee or an executive and that recruiter then turns around and finds uh it could go one of two ways
Either the recruiter turns around and tries to find a uh some talent that doesn’t require the the entire shall we call it budget the entire budgeted salary and in doing so because they technically save a company money from what they expected to pay for talent the recruiter earns a commission right
Alternatively the recruiter could advertise itself as Talent as a talent Searcher as a Headhunter of sorts and they will negotiate with the company how much certain key positions or certain Executives ought to be paid and then through that they guarantee that they make some guarantees that they’re
Able to fill those positions with the agreed upon salary and in that way and they also earn a commission now it’s not a red flag because it’s not the company who’s hiring you it’s the recruitment agency who’s hiring you the recruitment agency pays you and the company itself pays the recruitment agency
Typically what I’ve seen is that the checks the checks you earn may be coming from the recruitment organization or if they are coming from the company the recruitment organization still receives a kickback for having found you and having recruited you into a successful hire now this is starkly different from not
Being able to discuss wages and benefits as a regular employee and that’s not to say you can’t talk about how much you make once you are working for the company regardless of whether or not uh regardless of whether or not a recruitment agency a recruitment organization is the one that hires you
It shouldn’t make a difference because what they’re keeping you from discussing well what they’re keeping you from negotiating essentially is the key component to your hiring to the hiring process which is the salary and for some individuals that’s the deal breaker because they’re not able to negotiate their worth they are actually
Reliant on the recruitment agency or on the corporation of the company to pay them their worth because it’s not something that they can negotiate through the interview process and that’s what happens that’s actually what happens when you take when you seek the convenience of finding work you’re not out by yourself shooting out
Applications sending resumes going to interviews if you go to a recruitment agency if you sign up for recruitment Services then they send you uh work opportunities and if you accept you accept the work as it is sold to you right so you get paid whatever you see it as being advertised by now
Whether or not you’re able to negotiate with the recruitment company that’s I mean that’s not unheard of but if they advertise a position with a set salary that’s typically what they’re going to stick to foreign go ahead and read some comments I feel like I I described the recruitment
Process it’s it’s literally like it’s yeah it’s just being a Headhunter and you go if if I as a headhunter um had in my Professional Network a bunch of very talented individuals and one of these individuals needed some work I could approach a corporation and say
Hey I could get you some talent and we can negotiate we would negotiate their salary up front and if they agreed to it then it’d be my job it’d be my job to sell essentially um not hustle because I mean if it’s a professional Network you don’t really
Want to hustle your own Professional Network but you have to sell the position how you negotiated it to your professional friend in need of work it’s just being a middleman essentially is what a recruiter is and they do it because it’s a it’s a market of convenience the employees the workers the laborers
They don’t have to be out in the market actively investing their time and energy applying and interviewing and getting rejected and and setting appointments for future interviews no it’s just it’s just the one touch and go with recruiters so the first comment here the first comment says hiring managers are aren’t
In charge of your money hiring managers hiring managers are not in charge of your money some talking about it with them represents a risk to the company that’s the hiring manager isn’t trained to negotiate compensation it’s not a red flag but also a sign this company has a
Process a quote-unquote a process which could be good or bad the process might exist to ensure pay Equity fairness and competitive Talent acquisition strategy the process might also exist to low volume and that’s true if the recruiter is negotiating your salary for you it makes you think it’s
Not in their best interest to then negotiate it as low as possible lower lower than the pr than the projected or budgeted salary of the company and then everything the company saves the recruiter takes a percentage in commission that’s I mean that only makes sense that a recruiter might be incentivized to low
Volume in the name of commissions somebody replies to them saying as someone who is in a mid-sized company that has grown over the last several years massively I can tell you having a process is far better than no process especially when trying to be Equitable to people across the firm
Somebody else responds to that first one to the first first one saying we no longer allow hiring managers to answer questions about benefits or pay they don’t know what they’re doing and there were too many problems with candidates saying they were given incorrect information it caused us to lose some
Great candidates it’s best to let each person stay in their Lane believe me they say and yeah that makes sense I mean if you’ve got a system down and the cup part mentalization of these rules uh operate effectively then really there’s no need to be mixing duties
There’s no need for the hiring manager which is really just a manager who’s there to interview you and find whether or not you are a good fit the hiring manager is likely not in a position is likely not in an informed position to negotiate your salary your compensation your benefits given
Given that the company has a department for that all right second comment here says many recruiters gets paid a commission based on the salary the person they recruited is hired at so they may want to control those negotiations to prevent candidates from agreeing to lower salaries than the
Recruiter thinks they can negotiate for um I mean that sounds a little idealistic what I stated before is that a recruiter sure might negotiate up front but the company the organization already has a budgeted salary for that position and if the recruiter sits down with the company and is able to
Negotiate something lower for you as the contractor to accept then it’s in the interest of the recruiter to get paid that commission that they have saved for the company somebody responds to it is that the problem is that the recruiter’s chance of getting you hired goes up the less
You ask for yeah yeah or the less you accept so a recruiter might have a 50 chance of getting you hired at 150 000 but a 90 chance of giving of getting you hired at one hundred thousand dollars it’s in their best interest to get you hired the
Same day for one hundred thousand dollars then spend a month longer getting you 150k since their total commission is lower but their commission per day is they’ve worked is higher and they include an edits here and edit the book Freakonomics did a whole chapter on real estate agents doing this for houses
Also if the recruiter has two candidates going for the same job they can position one at too high a price to make their other their other candidates seem more reasonable the sacrificial candidate might feel aggrieved if they learned of their role right so there is there is additional compartmentalization
Especially if the recruiter is handling the recruiter acts as a sort of agent as a sort of agent for the prospective employees the the prospective applicants who are applying for work and the agent maybe because of personal interest or financial interest might negotiate for their candidates at different amounts because they know that
A corporation will is is less is more or less likely to hire candidates depending on how the recruiter presents them if the recruiter has two candidates like this comments are saying the recruiter has two candidates and one of them is asking for 100k and the second one is
Asking for 150k I mean now we’re we’re getting into the gray here and the recruiter has options has options to either sell depending on on what they’re depending on what their commission agreement looks like maybe they get paid a commission for the amount of money you get hired
For or maybe they get paid a commission for the amount of money they save for the corporation so it might behoove them to uh sell up to sell up the candidate that’s asking for 150k especially if that candidate has abilities has a special expertise a special knowledge
That the corporation is seeking so the 150 might likely be worth it or the 100K candidates because the corporation is paying slightly less they could be hired sooner depending on how the recruiter on how the recruiter navigates that relationship another another comment here says I work
In big Tech and none of the interviewers accept recruiter are allowed to discuss compensation this includes the hiring manager yeah now they say that they work in big Tech which which could give us the Assumption which could give us the conclusion could lead to the conclusion that in big Tech this
Is a common practice this is an industry practice but it might not be the same in big finance and big law or in medicine so you want to keep those you want to keep that in mind if you are entering the workforce depending on what your industry is like you definitely want to
Research and inform yourself the role that recruiters play and at what levels they’re capable of negotiating how Equitable uh their past negotiations have been and if you can talk to uh former clients of theirs or talk to other Executives that have utilized recruiting services somebody else comments
There’s so many reasons a recruiter will negotiate they say one because they list them here now to list them a number the number and bulletin one the recruiter will negotiate that because commission two not all hiring managers are privy to their employees salary slash bonuses yeah that makes sense if the hiring
Manager I said that before the hiring managers solely in a position to interview you and vet you find whether or not you’re a good fit for the company whether or not the company culture whether or not the company’s Mission will benefits of having you on the team
That’s what the hiring manager is there for so negotiating salaries and bonuses if you’re going through a recruiter the recruiter more than likely has done that already before you’ve even accepted the position otherwise you’ll you’ll find yourself negotiating it if you apply directly to the company and interview for it but
There’s going to be somebody from accounting somebody from um a a hiring committee that’s composed of individuals who have their finger on the pulse of cash flows inflows and outflows and whether or not they can afford you as an executive whether or not they can afford you as a contractor
And they will negotiate for something higher or lower depending on what their Market condition is number three they say in some companies HR that’s human resources drives that conversation and that’s their policy yeah if it’s HR doing it if it’s HR that’s got the the that’s got that information that’s got
Some of that white paper on the company then they might be in a position to hire for compensation salary and bonuses number four it’s a respect of time if you are given 30 to 60 minutes to talk to someone they want to know about you and your skills if you’re trying to talk
About compensation in a conversation if you’re trying to talk about compensation in a conversation that’s not scoped for it it can come off as rude yeah that makes sense if you’re offered the position the recruiter will come back with the paperwork and then you can negotiate from there that’s right truly you
Already know the Pay Band so you might as well wait until the right time yeah if uh if the hiring manager likes what they see I mean and this commenter is right typically interviews go from anywhere from 30 minutes to 60 minutes so in that time you’re pretty much just
Getting to know the hiring manager and finding out whether or not their style whether or not how they present promote the company to you to be able to accept an offer how you feel about it and alternatively how the hiring manager feels about you as a professional because in interviews always are two-way
Interviews are always two-way whether we know it or not whether we’re cognizant of it or not and if you’re taking a sizable chunk of that period of time to talk about compensation yeah it comes off as you not really caring about the company’s Mission the the company’s goals and
Objectives and just wanting to get paid out so it could turn them off from following through with an offer and alternatively alternatively if the hiring manager is not trained in negotiating that it could put the company in a bad position and um if you talk about it and the conversation was not
That topic of conversation was not meant to be addressed it can’t come off as unprofessional as Unbecoming of a professional someone else here says comments a recruiter reached out to me about a position we both agreed on a salary range and he said an interview with the
It manager the interview went on for about 45 minutes during the call during the video call she asked me why I was looking to leave my current Rule and I said I am looking to grow in the I.T field and because my current salary she then called the recruiter and told
Him how the interview went and she didn’t like how I brought up the salary a couple times and that was a No-No for her the recruiter told me do you do not talk about any salary since it was already decided yeah and notice how that is another I.T
Person using a recruiter so this I mean me personally as a social researcher I’m coming to the conclusion that a lot of I.T a lot of the attack industry used as Recruiters in this way recruiting is an industry practice it could be an industry practice somebody
Else comments this is not a flag this is how the vast majority of third-party recruiters handle negotiations openly discuss the salary when the recruiter broaches that convo with you yeah I mean that’s that’s a conversation you want to have with the recruiter and and looking back looking back at the email that’s
Actually what the recruiter says that if they have questions about compensation that they should be directed to the recruiter so first you want to knock the interview out of the park right and if the interview goes well if the Harry manager wants to wants to extend an offer then you then
You return to the recruiter because more than likely it’s the recruiter that has that key to be able to reopen negotiations if necessary with the company you don’t have that power if you’re going through a recruiting service you’ve effectively handed over that power to negotiate to this service to do it for you
Oh [ __ ] I’ll give you guys two more hair there’s another one says that it’s not an automatic red flag depending on the level that you’d be going in at and the structure of the company the hiring manager may not be the one in charge of your initial salary
They may be consulted like if you ask for adk and the company is trying to determine if they should offer 70 or 75k but not have the specifics they may also be one of those people who are looking for the person who doesn’t talk about salary and it’s just there due to the
Love of their job so talking about it automatically ranks the interview it may also be a red flag but I wouldn’t write it off just yet yeah I’ve noticed that that even if you’re not using a recruiter there are organizations out there who want to uh wants to attract talent for the sake
Just For the Love of the Game and they think that they can bend over the talents and [ __ ] them with a low ball off or thinking that they’ll jump on board there are a lot of big names out there that offer mediocre salaries for uh job duties that are excessive that are
Excessive but they have that staying power because they might be a legacy in the field a legacy in the industry that’s not to say that somebody wouldn’t kill to be in that position but I’ve heard from folks in big Finance folks in big law that a lot of the obligations are not worth
The uh the large salaries because you might effectively be on call 24 7. even if you’re making 200 300 views a year you’re on call 24 7 and it’s just the stress simply doesn’t uh this is not it’s not worth it I’ll give you one more hair
So it’s not necessarily a red flag they say it makes sense to discuss with an HR person but since they said so go ask them yes yeah finally in the emo they say talk to them about salary and compensation do not talk to the hiring manager so you want to follow the
Instructions especially if you’ve signed up for the service if you’re using this service then obviously you want to adhere to the terms of your agreement otherwise yeah yeah you’re coming off as unprofessional by breaching that agreement and talking about salary when you weren’t supposed to comes back to being a professional I’m
Not saying that there’s anything wrong with recruiting it’s just a different layer to this corporate game that you have to keep in mind be mindful of that you navigated differently and you navigate it differently all right well if you like what you heard you can follow us on Instagram obviously it’s
The corporate Cowboys it’s at corporates Cowboys with a z at the end the corporate Cowboys podcast is also on patreon everywhere that uh the part everywhere that podcasts are published and uh there are a couple of links floating around to be able to send donations if you would
Like to keep this operation not for profit obviously I mean I’m not in it for the profit I’m in it for the power and the influence right because ultimately I could be doing something else I could be supremely Incognito and just doing work behind the scenes but
I get that there are a lot of individuals still stuck having uh having to navigate and operate inside of corporate because this is a corporate world after all so I’m here to lend you some knowledge I’m here to lend you a professional opinion if you want
To do one-on-one by all means you can shoot us a direct message or an or an email and you could also use snail mail that’s a PO box 33 72 Rancho Cordova California 95741 you can send us I don’t know Contraband what have you no I’m kidding send us a handwritten letters
And uh we’ll uh we’ll be in touch have yourself a nice holiday if you don’t hear from me before then take care
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