Greetings everyone and welcome my name is Kyla hannington and I’m the public Outreach and engagement division manager with the prince Jers County Office of Human Rights the County Civil and human rights education and enforcement agency with me today as co-host is my fantastic colleague Andrea Lopez Herrera um we
Here at the office of Human Rights investigate complaints of civil rights discrimination we combat human trafficking we ensure Equitable language access to County government services and we provide Community programming on issues related to social justice so as part of that work we partnered with the prur County Memorial Library system and
The University of Maryland for this new series social justice in community our first event in this series was two weeks ago uh we had an amazing conversation with Dr Nicole Deo on the intersectionality of illness and today we are delighted to have with Excuse me with us Dr Chris Marsh on singlehood is
A human right H I want to take a minute to give credit where credit is due it was Dr Marsh who conceptualized this whole event series and so it is a particular pleasure to have her with us today as one of the very first guests in this series social justice and
Communities looks at how human rights research impacts us how scholarship on human rights violations or issues of social justice has meaning in our day-to-day lives and it offers an introduction to what is being discussed studied and thought about in universities today so Dr Marsh we are so
Happy to have you back with us uh Dr Marsh is associate professor and director of Graduate Studies at the University of Maryland she received her pH D from the University of Southern California in 2005 she was a post-doctoral scholar in at the Carolina population Center at the University of
North Carolina before joining The Faculty of the University of Maryland where she has been tenured since 2014 her book The Love Jones cohort single and living alone in the black middle class came out in February and we were very fortunate to have her talk to us about that at an in-person event
Earlier this year at the green ball Branch Library so welcome back Dr Marsh thank you it is such a pleasure to be back with you especially to talk about singlehood I’m quite passionate about the subject matter well we’re super happy to have you I do want to hear so
Singlehood as a human right I’m hoping that you can just kick us off by talking about just the title like what what are we getting into here absolutely but before I I will get there in one second but before I get there I can’t take all
The credit for this this really was like a collaborative effort but coming in as the new director of Graduate Studies at the University of Maryland College Park it was really important for me that other faculty and students are able to talk to everybody about their research
It’s one thing to be able to do a professional professional conference it’s another thing to be able to come to a public library and be able to make your research accessible so I’m so excited to be here I hope that my we going to see students that are going to
Be coming in the spring and I want to make my research and all the research that’s happening out of the sociology Department accessible to people right here in Prince Geor princh George’s County so thank you so much for having me now with that being said singlehood
Is a human right I want to talk a little bit about uh my book and talk about singlehood but to just kind of give you the take-home message when we think about singlehood we often think about singlehood in negative derogatory stigmatizing kind of ways and I want people to think about
Singlehood in a in different kind of ways and we also openly discriminate against single people so in the book that I wrote I’m going to talk about my book but in the book that I wrote I argue that we have to understand how structural forces constrain personal
Choices if I were to say that a little bit differently I would say we have to think about how racism constrains our personal choices if I were to give you an example so you can understand what I’m thinking about if I Chris Marsh want to marry another black heterosexual
Black black man that owns that has a PHD owns his own home is um has an NBA and is making $250,000 he’s simply not there so we have to understand how structural forces constrain our personal choices but then because certain institutions like the censors Bureau for example does not
Define single people living alone as a family they Define people that are single and living alone as a household their definition of family means somebody that you’re related to by Blood marriage or adoption so if the Census Bureau does not define me as a family and I’m defined as a household there’s
Three ways in which I think that this is discriminatory I’m going to give you a benign example then a more egregious example so if I I want to get the discount on my cell phone plan I want the family discount on my cell phone plan I’m not going to get that discount
Students talked about Netflix how Netflix discriminates too if I want to go on vacation single occupancy is going to be more expensive than double occupancy and then lastly the one that everybody should possibly shake their head at is the tax structure there’s a singlehood penalty built into the tax
Structure one of the things I talk about in my research is that there’s a really great book that if anybody’s interested written by Dorothy Brown she is out of the law tradition and the argument that she made makes is that we and the name of the book is the whiteness of wealth
One of the arguments that Dr Brown makes is that all people people should all file taxes as single if we don’t all file taxes as single I argue that we should all be able to file as a family and you should think of people that are
Single and living alone as a family and so the fact that they’re opening to people are openly discriminating against people that are uh single and living alone is a human rights issue issue and it’s a conversation that we need to have and people don’t even understand how they’re discriminated against single
People in open sight and just don’t even acknowledge it so the book is really trying to acknowledge that and figure out how we can move the conversation forward because if we just kind of pull the onion back a little bit we can see how so many policies really cater
Towards families and if families are the unit of analysis and people that are single and living alone are not the unit of analysis then it becomes a problem the Bureau just put out a study a little while ago a news a press release talking about the rise in singlehood and in fact
To talk about people that were 25 to 54 and I think 44% of them were single never married I can’t remember the actual percentage but that means it’s a large group it’s happening and we need to have the conversation about it so let the book is trying to have the
Conversation so what I want to do is I want to Pivot a little bit and just tell you a little bit about the book here is a copy of the book if you want to go and buy a copy of the book so one of the things a
Few things couple caveat before I talk about the book being in Prince George’s County one of the things that’s really important to me is that as a scholar I want to study the black middle class there are a lot of Scholars that study the black poor and that and I believe
There’s a reason and a need to study the black poor but there’s also a black middle class as we know Prince George’s County for years was the wealthiest black County in the country if you don’t know uh Charles County just slightly out um outpaced us of being the richest
Black County in the country so there is a thriving black middle class right here in princh Doris County and across the country and I really wanted to learn more about the black middle class so I wanted to specifically look at those that were single and living alone in the
Black midle Class part of the reason why I wanted to write this story also write this book also is because I was so tired of having this conversation why aren’t professional black women getting married that becomes almost like a deficit bottle it doesn’t matter what these
Black women are doing as long as they’re not partnered and not married that’s all that matters so I wanted to extend the conversation and say hey I’m a demographer which means I just look at demographics and I studied demographics and what we do know is that marriage
Rates have changed for all racial and ethnic groups but it’s way more pronounced for blacks and black women in particular but what do we know about people that are single and living alone we don’t usually extend the conversation it stops at why aren’t you married we
Know they’re not married so why don’t we talk about what they are doing some of the things I really wanted to know what they were doing I wanted to know where they lived where do they decide to live I wanted to know if they were single and living alone would they be discriminated
Against in the housing market because they don’t have a partner and they weren’t thought of as an attractive person to rent to or actually uh as a homeowner where they thought thought it was not being as attractive because they don’t have a partner I want to know their level of interaction with
Their community members do community members look at the single person at the end of the block and say oh that’s the creepy weird person at the end of the block do we have openly open biases openly implicit explicit biases towards people that are single and living alone
I also wanted to know okay so if we think about like the life course you go to you know in some in some cases you go to college you get married you have a partner you have children you buy a house house here’s people that have stepped over some of these um stations
On the live course so I really wanted to know like how singles were buying homes when were they deciding to buy homes how were they accumulating wealth was it only in home ownership did they have access to other forms of wealth I also was really fascinated with how singles
Disseminate their wealth because if we think about how wealth is usually transferred from parent to child and the second largest household type in the black middle class in my book are single and living alone how are they going to transfer their wealth it becomes a really interesting conversation and
Question and some of the respondents in the book talked about how they’re going to transferred their wealth and they talked about this is where friends played a central role in the conversation having friends helped a lot of the people in the book that I wrote and the people that I interviewed for
The book navigate singlehood oftentimes we think about marriage and we put all of our eggs in the marriage basket so we put all of our time and energy and effort into the one that we’re going to be partnered or married with and we forsake our friends and a lot of the
People in the cohort talked about how friends were really important to them and I would admonish everybody single and or married do not forget your friends because your friends will be there for you but it really is important to always nurture the relationships do not put all of your eggs in the marriage
Basket because that’s daunting on the marriage and that means the marriage has to be everything keep your friendships cultivate your friend friendships extend friendships even even if you are married because you don’t know if you’re going to return back to singlehood there’s research out there that talks about and
Suggests that people that are long-term never married tend to be and can be happier why because they built networks they have friends to go to church with to go to brunch with to go golfing with but sometimes other people who are married don’t have those same friendship networks and they put everything into
The marriage basket and then when they find themselves returning to single they just actually don’t know how to navigate and as they age they don’t have as positive outcomes of people that are never married and a long-term never married and built networks so I also wanted to think about like how do they
Navigate um um their mental and physical health I was like so you’re single do you have more time to work out less time to work out so I really just wanted to extend the conversation in different ways and really talk about what they are doing because if we think about
Singlehood and keep asking the question why aren’t you married and why don’t you have any children it becomes a deficit model and that’s not the kind of research that I want to do I want to be very clear that it’s not always the fault of the individual and one of the
Arguments strong argument that I make in the book is that when we think about singlehood it’s important to have a structural conversation about singlehood if we look at people that are single and say ooh there’s something wrong with you look you’re not smart enough you’re not pretty enough you’re not thin enough
You’re not fat and heavy enough whatever may possibly be it’s an individual conversation but that is shortsighted we have to understand especially when we’re thinking about in Black America we have to think about how structural forces actually constrain people’s individual choices there are some people that are
Choosing to be single they want to be single they decide they don’t want to date and that’s perfectly fine I I respect and appreciate their perspective but it’s also important to have a 30,000 foot conversation and talk about how structural forces actually have constrained people’s personal choices so
Those are some of the main components that I talk about in the book there’s four broad implications that I hope that the book does make the first one is that the singlehood scholarship is on the rise in in the states as well as globally there’s a lot of scholarship
Around singlehood but unfortunately what it what it appears like to me is that the singlehood scholarship has taken a white gaze or a white face so in other words you have the rise of like white people and white women in particular that are choosing to be single so the
Scholarship tends to have a white gaze and I’m pushing back quite hard in the book and saying if we look at it at the data from 1950 until the present we can see that blacks dominate The Single category black women in particular dominate The Single category so I want
To make sure that black women are thought of as the Trailblazers in This Global movement that’s happening towards singlehood and them being a Trailblazers we can’t ignore them from the conversation and I’m going to age myself some of you all will get this reference some of you absolutely will not get this
Reference and it’s okay but I think about how single Parenthood was pathologized when it was black women that were single parents and then for the old for the old heads I get it then there was Murphy Brown and Murphy Brown became a single parent it’s a sitcom she
Became a single parent and it was invogue it was sexy it was a hot thing to do I feel what’s kind of happening the same thing’s kind of happening in the singlehood scholarship you have non-black women that are there’s a rise in singlehood among non-black women that’s among globally around everybody
But black women are getting lost in the conversation so I want to make sure that we understand that black women are the Trailblazers for this Phenom this social phenomenon that’s happening globally number two I really want us to think more about how we look at Singles and
Whether or not we look at them as single by choice or single by force and whether it’s an amalgamation of both but more importantly I think it’s really important for us to understand sometimes it has it has nothing to do with the individual it really is structural
Forces and we have to acknowledge those structural forces the third one which relates to the structural forces if we understand that structural forces constrain personal choices and then you do not allow people that are single and living alone to be defined as a family that’s discrimination and that is a
Human right issue human rights issue and we need to have conversation around that if you think that you in your mind if you’re saying oh no Dr Marsh you have to be related to somebody or in relationship with someone to be considered a family the other broad
Implication I’m trying to make in my research is that if you don’t bu my argument about being a family of one we should institutionalize augmented families and I’m drawing from some earlier sociological work and what I mean by augmented families is I’m talking about people that you are in relationships but it’s non-romantic
Nurturing relationship so I think we need to institutionalize the value of these friends and they need to be legally recognized so two people that are in non-romantic nurturing relationships should be able to be developed as an institution for a couple of reasons one for estate planning two
For um medical decisions and three for later in life decisions if people that are really close to someone and they want to develop a family we should be open to that family should not only be someone that you’re related to by Blood marriage or adoption so those are the
Four main contributions that the research is actually trying to make and again this is the book you can get it on Amazon you can can get it uh also on audio you can get on audio and get it on Amazon audio Yeah so I put links for
People who are watching there’s a link to Dr Marshall’s website in the chat where you’re watching it’s Dr Chris k r i s m R.C d r k r i s m a RS H I’m gonna stop I’m just gonna put on the screen you
Don’t need to hear me say that again but you can get there and again get the links the book just came out in audio I don’t know if you said that in August so brand new audio book coming out there um I can I I I’m jumping in I have a question
Yes yes is actually I have a couple questions but one of the things I just you kind of just to at the end you got to a place that I’m so interested by and I want to talk more about this when you talk about the instant I’m just looking over here
For people who are watching also for you Dr Marsh I’m taking my notes over here on this screen so when I look I want you to know just my notes but I um you talk about the institutionalization of augmented families and as you were talking I’m going to be honest you know
I’m listening and and trying to learn um from you and um and also think about what you know what’s my argument against what you’re saying so as you’re talking I’m I’m listening and I’m thinking have to be argument against it well I’m just I’m be honest I like like what am I
Taking in and I was thinking as you’re talking in families I thought well I I’m you know well is it do people live in the same house and then as I was thinking because I I was following along with you it was like well no because we
Have people who are families who don’t live in the same house you have people who are married and get married benefits who live in different houses and so I was so interested and I love this idea and I know people who are in this category which you’re speaking about
Very close friends non-romantic friends very close friends who who really I mean should be considered domestic partners for every type of of of um legal framework and as you know estate planning medical decisions um care and so what I’m wondering about is like what what do you think is the limitation is
It just this kind of married normalness this married framework that is like probably heteronormative to to a great extent but also married normative yes so yes people have this idea of what family should be and they normalize marriage as part of this understanding of family and
They’re not willing to um even be open to the conversation or the discussion so at the so I have a colleague of mine who wrote read my book and called me we had a two-hour conversation she’s like we argued we had a debate for two hours and
One of the things that she said is that I don’t think you’re really arguing for family you don’t you don’t it’s not about family it’s about the advantages that come with family so if people get caught up on the word and they really don’t want to change family because
They’re a traditionalist and they’re not they want to be critical of words and know that words evolve and should evolve I can be open to that conversation but we also have open to the conversation if it’s not about defining family more broadly and more inclusive then people that don’t develop
Don’t have the type these families should still be able to get the benefits of a if they do not get the benefits of a family this is when we start thinking about singlehood is a human rights and we need to have these kind of conversations ideally I would like for
Us to be more inclusive of the word family and include other types of family but at a minimum you at least have to have the advantages at least you have the advantages what one of the things that I that I was I that came up as you were talking and I
Read your book and so I had the interview you know before with you and heing this presentation again I was thinking about the idea you know as you’re talking about the structural forces what what I actually wrote this down I I tried to make a note of your um
Structural forces constrain choices yeah and as you know one of the things I remember from the book and please correct me and for the viewers and is that that there’s a mixture there there are there are people who are single because they want to be like they living
Life is awesome I want to be single I’m having a great life and there are people who maybe would like to find a partner if these forces were not constraining choices is that is that a like you you your experienc that there’s both parties out there yeah so it can be both ANS
There’s some people that are like okay I’m single but I kind of really some people like I’m single I’m loving it I don’t want to do it a lot of women in the group that I that were single there were some that said you know I do hope
That I’ll get married or I’ll partner but I’m not going to settle and I think that’s important to we understand some people want to be in this category some people don’t want to be in this category so regardless if you want to be in this category or you don’t
Want to be in this category we also have to have a much broader conversation about how your choices have been constrained right and that is the part that’s often missing because we want to say something that’s individually wrong with you if you’re single but that’s not how that works there’s a structural
Conversation that is often ignored and that’s where I’m really trying to push forward is more of the structural conversation so it can be both and your dating dating choices can be constrained and you’re happy with being single your dating choices can be constrained but you really wish that they were there
Because you really want to be married and partnered okay okay so yeah I mean Andrea I can just keep going Andrea do do you want to jump in you want keep going okay I’m keep okay no I’m just listening right now okay all right um I
I want to do just chime in about because I do think it’s really kind of important though and I want we already think about sometimes think about singles in negative kind of ways and I get that I don’t want say I get that I talk about
That at nauseum in the book but for singles for the singles that are listening I also think it’s really important that because you are single and if you are middle class you have any kind of um assets you want to make sure you know exactly where your assets are
Going to go you are innovative ERS in this process because you don’t have children and you don’t have a partner you can decide where your assets are going to go if you want to uphold black institutions and give money to sororities fraternities historical black colleges and universities then so be it
But I think especially when you don’t when you’re single you want to make sure you have something in place that will establish exactly where your assets go no matter how little or how much you have that’s really important really actually on that note what about for people who are single and you know
For things like medical power of attorney or um decision making is that to take us through like what what kind of additional layers are there for people to make those kinds of decisions and appoint people and get people on board well see that’s where I think it’s really important that we have these
Augmented families and they’re actually in institutionalized it’s much easier when you’re putting your Li your will and living T trust together that like yeah this is my family so if this is my family it’s institutionalized it clearly just kind of is next in line even if you
Don’t have time to put these materials in place because they are your family by default they can have the ability to Advocate on your behalf and so we just need to it family in and of it in and of itself all I’m asking people to do is
Think two ways one is the term family Antiquated and two after reading this book I hope you’re just as likely to ask somebody why are you single as you are to ask somebody why are you married often ask single folks why are you single but we don’t ask married
Folks why are you married and why do you have children please understand I am not anti-marriage in fact I say in the very beginning of the book I’m Pro marriage I’m Pro love I’m Pro black love all of that but I think we’re privileging marriage perfect example I think this is
Going to air today so it’s before Thanksgiving Thanksgiving is coming up and in the book The respondents talked about how for the holidays they had to get their narrative together when they would go to family events and explain why they’re single first of all family stop asking single people ask everybody
Or ask nobody but don’t just openly discriminate and ask one and not ask the other and for singles you don’t have to have a narrative when someone asks you why are you single one of the most benign things that you can respond back to people is to say what do you mean by
That it forces people to then say oh well um they’re probably going to stutter they’re probably going to stammer and then they’re probably going to say you know I’m like no my entire pedigree does not matter to you but the only thing you said to me is why are you
Single so I think it’s well within our rights to say what do you mean by that and keep pushing until people understand the error in their ways but I do hope two things one we think about even to understand why we think about singles in a negative
Way why stop thinking about in a negative way and then think about family like is family exclusionary and should we continue to use the term that’s exclusionary or should we broaden the term that does include people that are single and are in these augmented families I well I was really and like
The as you’re talking about discrimination you know here you know office human rights you know and I was say we love discrimination we don’t love discrimination we love discrimination um and so talking about this and and really like I really appreciate this I really appreciate you pointing things out I
Made notes as you were talking and I’m just going to go go back and talk about them so so you know family dis account like and Netflix and yeah I don’t know I don’t have Netflix so I don’t know how it works but I I did a presentation and
Students were comeing with other ways in which singles are being discriminated against I was like yeah yeah like so like so I mean I’ll speak to Netflix we have uh I have two children and we have one Netflix account My Two children by the way Netflix if you’re listening stop
Listening now my two children live in different places one lives in Wisconsin one lives at University and they can access my and I’m not sharing you know it’s not legal to share the password well I’m not sharing in the password they’re part of my family Ergo they can
Just use my Netflix and so so that’s an example so so we have one account that benefits three people versus three different accounts right so that’s that’s and then I thought you know your vacation single versus double occupancy um and the the the housing market like how are people treated you’re talking
About you know black women coming to get a mortgage and how how are they being received or treated because there isn’t the partner along with them I thought those were all really really good points that I’m wondering how many people listening if they’re not living as a single person themselves how how how
Many of us would imagine those kinds of areas of discrimination right and I and I think I also mentioned this part too I was like um so what do you think about the single person at the end of The Block is that the weird single person you have like these very stereotypical
Negative views about single person what’s wrong yeah yeah what’s wrong with them I like so you want you’re trying to liken this to an individual conversation but you’re not you can’t broaden the conversation out to think about how structural forces have just constrained their choices and they chose not to
Settle and they’re just not married like yeah so I think interacting with neighbors is something we need to think about too and here’s why I think that this was really important because people may not always understand racism people may not always understand um sexism if we all live long enough God
Willing we will all understand what it’s like to be discriminated against because of our age so age is all experience but we’ve all been single every single one of us has held the title of single so some of us opt out or were able to married or partnered out of the
Category so why are we still looking at singles in a negative way you were sing so it’s really important that we just kind of pause and think about why we have these biases towards single people I also think a thoughtful question again I am prom marriage but I think it’s
Really thoughtful question is why do you want to be married yeah right and we’ve been conditioned from a very young age that we’re supposed to be married you’re supposed to have children like so why do you actually want to be married it’s a it’s it’s an easy
Question it’s a short question but I think it’s a very complicated answer people should pause and understand why they want to be married because you’ve been told that from a young age right yeah Dr um March do you think that people in certain professions are looked
Down upon more if they’re single than in other professions if they’re not I think across the board people are stigmatized for being single but and but but to your exact question I did a oped piece side note because this is so important to me I did not know that a
Oped meant opposite the editorial page I thought op edmin an opinion editorial just found too no it means opposite the editorial page I am today years old didn’t know that but but to your point Andrea a Doctor Andrea uh Tim Scott a senator from South Carolina was indicted
Because he was single and they thought he would not be good at a as a president so MSNBC actually asked me to write an oped opposite the editorial page about singlehood and Tim Scott if you can please put the link up because I really talk about how why do why does your
Marital status have anything to do with your occupation your profession and what you want to do so I think everybody’s kind of all people are stigmatized as being single and I don’t know if certain occupations are more stigmatized than others but what I do know is there’s
Some data to suggest that men in particular are wearing wedding wedding rings so that they can’t appear as if they’re married and so they won’t be as openly discriminated against that’s a super duper great question I did just put the link the MSNBC link is in the chat uh wherever
You’re watching hopefully you have it um and get come up on my screen no it’s just in the chat for people who are watching at home this is it I’ll put it up just really quick so people it’s right there but it’s going to be in the
Chat where you’re watching if for some reason you’re not seeing it if you Google Dr Chris Marsh MSNBC it’ll be the first hit for you um but it’s so unfortunate I mean I mean I don’t care where you sit in his politics I don’t care but I do care that
Like you’re trying to figure out whether or not he is worthy to be president because he’s single the last couple of presidents we’ve had most of our presidents were married how about we try something different I think our only president that wasn’t married was um
Buchanan so I’m like uh yeah no let’s I I think it’s I think that your marital status should have nothing to do with or your single stat have nothing to do with any occupation and I do think that you openly you’re discriminated against because you’re single whether or not
You’re a medical doctor you’re a PhD you’re clergy you make a whole set of exceptions when you’re single it it seems like single singlehood and is and you know you talked about like if we’re if we’re all fortunate enough you know we’ll we’ll experience age discrimination you know we’re gonna live
Long enough fortunate enough that we live to be older right yeah someone’s gonna quote me on this and it’s going to be a problem I hope I understood what I meant but but that that we and I’ve heard that also about disability right that we’re we’re only
Temporarily abled that that all of us will go through a period you know and just um but I was thinking about with singlehood in that regard was that e for people who again maybe people who are married or partnered long-term partnered living with someone in a family as recognized currently
Right you started off single but also a lot of us are gonna end up single right like right like that there’s that that none of us so it’s not just you know we all have this is a condition that all people experience it’s a question of how
Long they experience for maybe it’s it’s for their whole life and maybe it’s for a period of life and so it really does have this question about like how did family and again in this very narrow Ian because I love your idea that we need to
Talk about family in a new way right like that family um or recognized family in a new legally recognized family in a new way because we know we talk about the family you make these are expressions we use all the time about our friend groups right my chosen family but to have that
Recognized um in an instit way um these these families and it’s making me wonder about how did it become that that married was normative because as you say people don’t say why did you get married as if that’s unusual like why aren’t you married you know H how did this become a
Normative that we consider a uh and not equally normative right like a better normative status do you know can you speak to that do you know about how we got into the situation I don’t know that I know the history all that well and I
Don’t think I kind of tease that out in the book all that much but I do think the the larger point that you’re kind of making is really true it’s like at the end of the day there’s a certain kind of family type and you need to be married
You know and we’re talking about what’s better you need to be in a mother father 2.5 child and um a dog kind of family anything out of that seems to be considered um not normal and not well accepted we now are more moving more towards same-sex relationships and
Marriages and Partnerships when will we get to a point where we also appreciate and accept being in a family of one it challenges us to think differently but the term family should evolve and has evolved and should continue to evolve um I wanted to take I’m just
Gonna switch streams just for a minute one of our viewers had asked a couple of questions actually this is Miss Vivian who’s uh been a really faithful um uh event uh attendee with the library printer count Memorial Library system for quite some time and then also has
Been a therefore because we do a lot with the library has also join us in a lot and she’s actually asked a few questions throughout the conversation but I’m going to put out a couple um to do with the book really just um so the first one is did you like writing the
Book and then secondly um she also wants to know about your research if you can just talk a little bit about the book process from Miss Vivian that would be awesome no so Miss Vivian thank you for the questions no I did not like writing
The book I did not I do I did not like that professors had to do as much writing as we had to do had I have known that as a professor I had to do this much writing I would have probably gotten a master’s degree in journalism
Or literature or something like that or literature because I did not realize how much writing I would have to do it took me seven years to write this book because I wanted to make sure I did a thoughtful uh job with the narratives from the respondents so talk to talk a
Little bit about how I collected the data I collected the data in 2015 and um I collected data from 62 respondents 50 43 women and 19 men the interviews happened either on the University of Maryland’s campus or it happened at the choosing of the respondents choice whatever the
Respondents chose we then after we we recorded their interviews we got consent we recorded their interviews then we had to transcribe everything that the respondent said so as they’re saying it in our ear we have to type it down on a piece of paper some interviews lasted an
Hour some interviews lasted over three hours and we had to transcribe all of that data and then as a researcher I had to step back and see what are the trends and what are the common things that all of the respondents are saying and it wasn’t easy it took me
Seven years to write it I’m happy that it got done I did not think sometimes I thought it would not get done the the first draft of the book I had I sent it out to my reviewers because it’s an academic book so for academic books they
Have to be peer-reviewed by scholars in the field to make sure that it’s it’s sound and so my first set of reviews for the book I got were 15 pages single space of all the things I had to do on the book just to contextualize it people
Typically get about two or three pages of revisions I got 15 pages singles based I was devastated when I got my revisions but I did it I got through it I’m much happier with the product that I have now than I had at the beginning so
If you do buy the book there’s two ways in which I want you to think about reading the book Vivian and anybody else that is listening uh is on this call I want you that the introduction and chapter one are theoretically dense I do engage with a lot of theory in those
Chapters if you’re a theory person you’re in heaven cuz it’s great if you’re not a theory person chapters 2 through 10 read very different differently I wrote chapters 2 through 10 for a lay audience I did not and do not want to be the kind of academic that
Only writes to academic because that means I’ve disenfranchised an entire group of people if the people that are on this Library call right now are not academics and they can pick up my book and learn something from it my colleagues will respect it but if I write to my colleagues I’ve
Disenfranchized some of the members that come to the library and I was not willing to do that so I gave the academics two par two chapters and I gave the late audience uh nine chapters eight chapters so I do hope that you enjoyed the eight chapters also I am
Really as a professor I’m on constantly trying to teach people new things and so I use footnotes as a way to teach people new things so if you do pick up the book or if you do listen to the book be sure and listen to the footnotes and or read
The footnotes because some of the things I just want to teach you as a sociologist in case you may not know are actually in the footnotes so this is kind of a heads up on how to read the book if you do decide to read the
Book thank you and also for everybody uh anybody else watching please feel free to type any questions that you have into the chat and we will share them with Dr Marsh as we can um one of the things I want to talk about really quick that you
Don’t mind yeah please go for it talking about being sensitive to the data I had to be sensitive to what my respondent said so overall the respondents were okay with being single they were some of them wish they were married but they weren’t willing to settle and they were
Still living their lives there were some that did talk about loneliness but when they talked about loneliness you’re welcome Vivian when they talked about loneliness they talked about loneliness in a situational or a very short period of time they didn’t talk about this debilitating loneliness whereby they’re pulling the covers up
Over their head they’re pulling on the blinds and they’re not coming out of the house for six weeks they did not talk about that they talked about being lonely around like major holidays or holidays like Valentine’s Day was one time or like even New Year’s Eve where
You always want to have somebody to kiss and they talked about how they were lonely so I want to make sure that I am balanced in what I say overall very happy had situational loneliness small small times of loneliness but then getting back to the point that I was
Making earlier friends helped them through that situation of loneliness or that point of loneliness and the next day they were good they were fine but it’s baffling to me when people think like okay well I’m I’m lonely I may not be feeling good so let me go get married
Why do people think marriage is going to be the Panacea for all of your ills I would argue that the worst thing to do is to be married and still feel like you are alone and so we have to think about how we think about marriage and what we expect marriage to
Do um yeah you just hit on something I I’ve said that before I think that the word there’s nothing lonelier there is nothing lonlier than being lonely in a marriage or lonely in a group of people where you feel like you should be you know with friends but I think theal
Loneliness is real we have a comment here from Audrey the distinction of who gets to be in a family and defined as a family goes back in American history to the end of slavery and reconstruction and it’s interesting to see how this is an issue today too yeah and it continues
To be an issue and as I constantly I was at a I was I’m not going to say where I was but somewhere just yesterday having this conversation they were pushing back about the idea of family and like how this family is about connection I’m like is that really where we
Are I do find that interesting because like what I was saying earlier like I hear people all the time talking about my chosen family and they’re not talking in the at least in the context in which I personally have heard this is people talking about their friend group right
They’re not talking about their chosen family like their spouse or their children um as opposed to their family of Orin they’re talking chosen family as their friends and so it’s like this seems like something that we articulate individually but we don’t systemically accept right so what so like the
Argument that they were making yesterday they were saying okay you have to be in relationship with someone to be considered a family now you can have like your chosen family your augmented family but to have be considered like the marsh family I have to be in connection with someone else and I I
Diametrically oppos that I’m like nope I am in connection with myself I do have my chosen family I have my augmented family I have my extended black family I was like but I also stand as a family of one and people don’t buy that argument some don’t buy that argument so what do
You think is it is it just our our we just can’t wrap our minds around like what do you think the resistant is for people I and I think the to the conversation I was having yesterday family connotes relationship and I’m like but why can’t we have the relationship with ourselves the best
Relationship you can have with anybody is yourself first before anybody else and so people just think that it it it it suggests relationships and because a family of one does not suggest a relationship with another person that it should not be considered a family oh I
Want to take time and Andrea I know do do before I take time Andrea do you wanna you’re good okay real quick though the reason why this conversation is important I don’t care where the listeners land in this convers ation but what I do care is that we step back and
Think about policies and there policies that have family explicitly labed in the policy and that’s family leave is that include me like where where do I fall into that conversation we need to think about this policies and the implications by having family defined so narrowly well this I mean
This does lead in because I wanted to talk I don’t want to avoid this I think it’s really important to talk about you know you talk about structural forces and I think you’re speaking specifically in the quote with structural forces as they relate to choices but I think we’re
Talking it’s big the what you just said too like what are the structures that are constrain what are the structural forces that contain choices and then what and also these structures that have built in discrimination yeah there’s implications from structural forces constraining personal choices and the implications are I’m now not married I’m
Not partnered I can’t be defined as a family so some of these policies don’t even include me or even see me and that’s where we need to think about the policy it’s so it’s almost so easy that we Overlook it but I’m getting I’m trying to get us to pause and be
Like oh wait a minute yeah let’s think about this for a second it’s almost it’s so it’s so so it’s almost so in our face that we just don’t even see it yeah and I often and I think like and and correct me if I’m wrong but I think
Like during there was like some family relief for CO as well some kind of policy for family Rel um I I can speak to that because I’m pretty sure I got some money from the government for having children just saying and I’m glad you said that because one
Me so glad you said that because one of the things that they talk the respondents in the book talk about they talk about and the data was pretty clear I’m drawing from a study that was done with the Washington Post and Kaiser foundation and what they found is that
For black women in particular when you’re single your checkbook and your time becomes the extended family checkbook and time so what I mean by that when you’re single it’s like well we’re g to ask Chris for the money because we’re not taking food out of the mouths of her partner nor her children
We’re also gonna ask Chris to take the grandmother to the podiatrist don’t even know what a podiatrist is but take have Chris take the grandmother to the podiatrist because Chris doesn’t have a partner or children to manage or to work with or to navigate and so we I’m like if anybody needs some
Financial benefits during Co or something like that it could be me because I have a goddaughter that I taken care of sometimes I have nieces and nephews I have extended nieces and nephews I have social nieces and nephews I would like to get a little break on
Some of that as well right fall into the the policy so I ignore and the giving that I give to my extended family is kind of ignor right yeah no that’s really interesting and really important can I can I mean Andrea are you good yeah budy okay no I
Think um I think what draw what um what’s most interesting to me is how you’re almost punished for being single and like taxes or things like that and it’s like okay that’s not like that that that just kind of I’ve always thought that was like like if you’re not if
You’re single you get taxed more you get more taken out I’m just like okay well I didn’t choose this but okay right and that’s kind of the point it’s like it’s like okay so you know that I didn’t choose this you know that structural forces have constrained my dating
Choices and like the man that I want to marry the woman that I want to marry is just not there and then from there I’m discriminated against that’s Insidious to me and it’s I’m I’m just saying people it’s so clear that people just don’t even see it so the book helps you
To actually see it and then decide what you want what you’re going to do I would argue that anybody that’s a part of some kind of institution needs to go back and look and say how do our policies openly discriminate against people that aren’t in families I would admonish anybody on
This call to do that the library system like think about I’m not saying not saying this is the case but just think about it do we have um policies that benefit families and can I be a family of one for us to think about and that’s
That’s actually what I was going to go is I wanted to talk about okay so for people watching now or if you’re tuning in later what are some takeaway is for us you know like I think what you’re saying I mean I know for me and I know
When we met when we met um in person to talk about the book and greenbell one of the things I was saying then is like it really read like there’s so much you know that resonates for me and I you know I’m not a black single woman in the
Middle class like it’s but and yet these stories you know I connected with with um the some of the experiences but also recognizing we talked about now like some of the ways of discrimination and you opening you know reading the book and having this conversation out it’s
Like oh I see it and I don’t necessarily think as my kid in Wisconsin is on my Netflix account and I don’t feel like I’ve in illegally shared my password you know what I mean like I don’t think about it until you know you open my eyes
And I appreciate that but so for those of us watching like what are things we can do what are takeaways that are there action items or takeaways from this that you would like us to have yeah and I think I just kind of gave you some takeaway but I’ll kind of reiterate
Those the first thing is I want you to ask yourself how do you look at Singles and I think it’s very important the second thing is like let’s be consistent we’re going to be consistent either we’re gonna ask everybody or we’re gonna ask nobody stop asking people why you’re single if you’re not
Also going to ask people why are you married we keep doing that and only asking single folks we continue to privilege marriage right third I want us all to stop pause and think about how we Define family individually but any institution and structure that we are associated with think about the way in
Which we Define family and look at the policies in any of these institutions and structures that we are associated with and think about how they have policies that include families and if these policy include families do they also include people that are single and living alone it’s an easy lift but it
Can have real world uh uh benefits if we actually just take this time to pause stop and think about it I thinking of something that I see like with Airlines for instance if there’s a death in your family and it’s a it’s a fairly tight definition of family right I think I
Mean I don’t know I’m not looking at any Airline policies right now as I speak but I think it’s like Mom Dad brother sister child you know I don’t think it’s I don’t think it’s aunt and uncle grandparent like I think it’s this very close relationships but as we’re talking
To St it’s like we recognize I mean you can have equally close meaningful relation ship that like deep deep deep close Partnerships with with a friend that is not your romantic partner but is a deep life partnership and and that is a way that’s just as we’re talking about ways in
Which there’s this discrimination is like that that relationship is somehow less valuable um or or less honored it’s less honored it’s less valuable it’s not thought of as being traditional or normal so it’s ignored and um it’s excluded so I do think that if we’re not going to I think
It’s both it’s both and right I we should have a family of one we should also have augmented families and have them institutionalized and I guess the argument could be oh well they might break up or something like that but can’t marriages break up I was gonna say
Like yeah like friendships break up all the time and I appreciate the book because I’ve had some some therapist in Maryland in DC and they’re like thank you Dr Marsh for the book because I’m kind of saying you know we have all of these benefits for married folks so if
Your marriage gets a little crunchy you can go to a marriage and family therapist you can work it out well we don’t have a lot of therapists that prioritize friend breakups because you have friend breakups too I have a friend that I lost 30 years ago 20 years ago
Because she was a dog person and I wasn’t a dog person and we couldn’t quite we haven’t talked in years because um her dog passed away and I just sent a text I didn’t know I was supposed to call and or jump on a flight oneway
Flight to La so we just don’t talk anymore but I really wish that we could go to a therapist and kind of work through that because I really honestly miss my friend but we don’t value and we don’t priv we don’t privilege and we just don’t have we don’t normalize
Friendships and the value we need to put on non-romantic nurturing relationships um do you have can you hold your book up I look I keep looking because I like I have it but I don’t have it in Arms Reach I’m trying to reach it over there okay so so this is
Actually a really really interesting fascinating book and as you can hear from our conversation today there’s a lot of of research in it and conversation in it that is so relevant to what we’re doing and to the decisions that we’re making so I really want to encourage everybody who is watching to
Get a copy from your favorite independent bookstore um and also our friends Prince R County Memorial Library System who are one of our wonderful partners for this event and so many other events uh also have copies that you can take out if you’re not in a
Position to buy one yourself um I we are going to close up here here in just a minute but I want to ask a question before we go to Dr Marsh or or Andrea do you have anything any closing thoughts or questions before we before we go um no I really enjoyed the
Conversation it’s really a lot of knowledge and it’s something a lot of people don’t think about so you know I just appreciate you know having you here Dr March so thank you it’s a pleasure and I do hope that people just you know I don’t care where you sit in the
Conversation if you agree or disagree I hope just at a minimum you stop pause and think about where you fit in this conversation and where you agree and where you don’t you don’t agree but at least pause and have the conversation and thank you so much for saying independent bookstores I always
Default to Amazon I apologize for that but I do know that it’s at um bus poison poets the book is there awesome I do try to support independent bookstores so I apologize for using Amazon I me I want to go on record saying that especially
To the bookstores out there my bad um I really want to just take a minute before before we go to talk about this series and just make sure people who are watching are aware of what’s coming because it is fantastic and I appreciate Dr Mark giving credit you know that’s
Not only you but from you know you were the one who brought it to us and we are so grateful for this because it is really extraordinary and so for the people watching here’s what’s going to be happening and we hope that you can join us starting in late January I think
The last Thursday in January um and going all the way through the first Thursday in may actually we are going to continue this series every single week 2 to 3 p p.m. we are welcoming Scholars students um all of these Wonder thinkers from the University of Maryland um who
Talking about social justice and community and as I said in the opening really looking at like how is this research I me I think Dr Marsh I’m gonna misquote you but when we had this conversation with you to talk about this was kind of like how do we get it out of
The Ivory Tower and into community and so people realize a couple things first of all so all of you watching you know hey what’s going on out there what are people what are people thinking about and I think really let’s let’s also just name it how does it impact me why is it
Relevant what’s the impact to me and what can I take away way and so this is like we are so excited about this program and so for everybody watching please just you know stay tuned uh join in with us again the last Thursday in January every single week all the way
Through to the first um Thursday in May we’re keeping it consistent 2 to 3 p PM every single Thursday um Dr Marsh it has been so good to have you with us again you are like one of our most favorite frequent flyers I don’t even know how
Many times we’ve had you for events but we are so grateful for your um time and energy and again for people watch if you’re not familiar with Dr Marsh not just um her book is extraordinary I really encourage you to read it I loved
It I have a copy you can reach out to me I’ll even lend it to you so good um but also Dr Marsh does all kinds of work in around Prince geores County she does um police community relations she does all kinds of community moderation is just a
A fantastic resource for all of us and so I do want to also take a moment and thank you Dr Marsh for all you do all around Prince Georges county you you really are an incredible person oh thank you thank you so much for having me thank you Vivian for your comments thank
You for all the listeners whenever you need me to be back I will be back but you will have some great Scholars coming in 2024 and I’m so excited to be a part of those conversations and discussions all right awesome and so thank you and again check our website check the
Libraries website and you’ll be able to keep up with us as this goes on Dr Marsh thank you Andrea thank you so much for being here and to the library and the University of Maryland thank you very much for this partnership for this series right bye everybody bye
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