Hello everybody glad to have you here today I have a really great guest uh David L gray David how are you today it’s pleasure to be here Jonathan happy to finally meet in person and yeah interesting looking forward to our conversation I am too I’ve been uh
Following you and watching a lot of your stuff for for quite some time now and i’ I just really really appreciate what you’re doing on here for the Catholic culture right yes thank you for that yeah and before I forget make sure to like subscribe here at Miss day catholic.org
And the YouTube channel and definitely follow David as well if you’re not familiar at St Dominic’s media I was reading through your your book great stuff so much so much there that my brain was starting to explode how many years were you in in information we’ll
Just kind of start there maybe you can tell me a little bit also about the the Prince Hall organization yeah so I became a intered Apprentice Freemason then a fellowcraft and a Master Mason in 1994 so I was still in college I think I was just a sophomore at that time maybe
Becoming a junior always knew for a long time that I wanted to become a Freemason just because the men in my family had been Freemason it was in Warren Ohio being a Freemason was a prominent thing especially if you belong to the African Methodist Episcopal Church which my grandmother
Did and she always a press it upon me that’s just something that you do you know when you become a man you become a Mason so I you know I just knew that I wanted to do it later on I found out Freemasons kind of I thought they knew
Something mysterious some sort of truth that other people didn’t know I had an appeal an attraction towards what I will later know is a not you know narcism you know the secret knowledge and so I was very attracted to freemer I didn’t know I was going to have an opportunity to
Become a Freemason until later on in life but I happened to be at a university where you had young men who were Freemasons it was called a Collegiate Lodge that they have there so a bunch of Freemasons who were college students and so I didn’t know
That I was going down that route I just went to a lecture on an individual named Prince Hall and I like oh well I heard about Prince Hall he’s associated with the Freemason so I just went to hear a lecture in college and I didn’t know it was a screening these these Freemasons
There were sort of screening people who they thought might be a good fit and so after that meeting I was invited to another meeting which was you know by imitation only it’s going to be another lecture I was like oh so next thing you know you know I’m going down this route
And like oh I’m they’re like sort of grooming me to you know maybe become a Freemason so that that was the road I went down so that was 94 and from there I went on to join other Masonic um appendant adopted concordant bodies that that we would call them but people call Scottish
Rights the York rights the nice Templar the waren select the Eastern Star and um so I I became pretty well Advanced and started getting elected in appointed positions and so at one point in time I I was the youngest wara for master of a lodge in the state of
Ohio and what was called The Prince Hall Grand Lodge so the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Ohio or Prince Hall FAS in general that’s a predominantly black set of fas it um starts um these 14 men 15 men were initiated it into freasy black men
At the time around 1774 I believe in the Irish Lodge in Boston so they went on to start this organization was was a promly black set of freemer and it spread all around the world pretty fast and it was involved in the Underground Railroad involved in the abolition movements for
Maybe the next 250 years anyone who you could speak of who was a prominent black American was probably a prince off foron from fredfred Douglas to WD the boys to um I don’t know Don King Mike Tyson you know just just just running the gamut of your really
Prominent black men in America and so freem served the same purpose in Black America in his early history of really grooming it and making it indifferent towards Christianity making it um serving as the backbone of the community so the the Protestant church and the Masonic Lodge really grew up together
And there’s some intersects there with the Catholic church that we may get into so that that was a set I was Prim primarily in but also belonged to what was called the mainstream Grand Lodge of Ohio so this is the prominent predominantly white Grand Lodge of Ohio
And so I was the first prince H fre Mason to go from Prince Hall to U mainstream so I was I belonged to their Lodge of research I was a senior Deacon which is the highest appointed officer in in a lodge so um I was a member of a
Number of research societies I became a fellow of a very prominent research Society I went on to write a number of books about freemasony and I spoke around the world on the subject of freemasony so my M background was pretty extensive I was what they called um you know fast
Mover someone who they was grooming to eventually become a Grandmaster one day um by the time I left Mak I was had become the highest appointed Grand Lodge officer or second highest appointed Grand LOD officer which means I was a district Deputy over a whole portion of Ohio the representative of the Grand
Master so and I did want to become I’m a grand master that was definitely a life goal of mine and I was um definitely manicuring what I was doing to make sure I would you know fit it’s very free ministry is very political you know it’s kind of like running for any elected
Office so you have to you know have a constituency you have to have supporters you have to have money and um to move up and um so I was I was that was it was my life and um so that’s where I was until because I was an agnostic at the
Time largely I really didn’t believe that Jesus Christ is real person and I would tell anybody that including in the lodge you know when I heard these Freemasons ining their prayers in Jesus name and I would when I was a deputy I always enforced you know the Masonic
Teaching like you can’t mention the name of Jesus in the lodge you know they would because I was Deputy these guys would listen to me but I just didn’t like hearing the name of Jesus you know that was a personal thing but um so when I did discover Jesus was a real person
He’s in the rested of my life I started following him to the Catholic church and this was in 2004 when um August August 8th Feast of St Dominic August 8th 2006 oh I received a Sacrament of Confirmation in the Catholic Church became a Catholic couple years before
They had been baptized in the Protestant church so that’s the that’s the yeah that’s from 1994 to 2004 so that’s that’s a 10 year 10 year story you think your your spiritual curiosity it sounds like LED you a little towards the you made you attracted to Freemasonry I was also similar to this
Too like I wanted certain knowledge you like you kind of saying with Gnostic stuff I’d read a lot of books you know even like you know a cultish type of things for me I was very attracted to in my younger days do you think that that
Was a little bit part of your attraction there yeah definitely Jonathan I was in the search for truth I just want to know what what was true and my problem was that um I just didn’t believe Christianity was true for a number of reasons and I guess
The main reason was I guess for my parents to my grandparents it was just it was assumed that I would just be a Christian I was never catechized I was never even read never had even read the old New Testament no one even taught it to me so
My knowledge about who Jesus was was just formed from a very panafrican point of view growing up in the 80s and going to a predominantly black college down at outside of Dayton Ohio um just surrounded by you know people who are pan africanist people who
Believe that um the true be a true black person you had to really connect yourself with Africa and everything that’s there so part of that part of that ideology is a rejection of things that we believe came from you know the white man you know the boogeyman white
Man you know it’s such it’s such a sophistic and shallow ideology but there’s this there’s this idea within pan africanism that Christianity is bad because the people who were involved with slavery were were Christians right right but for for 18y old 19y old that sounds like oh yeah you
Know so Christianity was off the table for that many other reasons but I was still in search for truth and so that led me to look at Islam that led me to look at the Nation of Islam led me to looking at Judaism for a little while and wiccanism and just whatever whatever
What’s true I wanna I want to find out what’s true and um then I kind of settled just kind of a narcissism like there there’s so many competing ideas nothing must be true there must not be a god who’s interested in my life not not a personal God and then I
Discovered masery and it had like this it had this moral code Jonathan it had things that you uh you know you had to live your life by a square a compass and just all these things that had a a you know had a Bible and altar wasn’t dogmatic but we accepted there’s some
Things in there that is true oh also this qan there’s some things in there that’s true as well so in freemer satisfi for quite a while my Pursuit truth even though nothing was true there was just a lot of true things there and that’s that was kind of like my world
Viiew that there’s nothing there not just one truth there’s a bunch of truths and I thought freem Mery like as syncretic as it was kind of grabbed them all in and presented what was true um and it through the filter freemer I could really navigate the world it this
Is almost like it’s all good before the saying it’s all good came out huh yeah yeah yeah pretty much everyone go on it it’s fine we’re all climbing the mountain there right yes yeah um I remember I had a lot of lot of black friends and I I was
Pretty young and some of them were wearing the the Masonic ring right they were big tough dudes man they were really cool um but did you wear the did you wear that Masonic ring as as well and like I guess it wasn’t very uh secretive huh when you’re showing it to the whole
World oh yeah yeah I was definitely into the areia um where the ring rings the hats the jackets back your say that again yeah no I was saying you were you were wearing all that too okay yeah yeah all it I thought it was supposed to be a little more secretive
Why why why why wear the rings and things like that is it more about is that the the the the changing face of Freemasonry even during that that time period I mean that’s like 80s and 90s it’s American it’s North American is uh I don’t know I would say North American
But is definitely United States the flavor of Freemason you find in the United States is very flashy is very showy it plays into the idea that Freemasons want to curate this idea that there just some sort of philanthropic philanthropic organization that’s not dangerous hey look we’re you know our
Signs you come into any town you know a little sign outside of small towns or are symbols there right next to the Rotary Club right next to the Lions Club our temples are right downtown they’re right in plain view there’s nothing dangerous about us hey you know
On the back of our car you you know who we are you know our EMS are on the back of our car this was a transition that freem wanted to um engage in this marketing scheme after what happened in the mid 1800s with the anti-masonic party anti-masonic political party they come
Online and they understand how influential freemasony is how many judges how many politicians are involved in it and they start the most successful third party there ever has been in the United States States they went a lot of seats especially in the east on the east
Coast and so free after this they want to transition from being this secret organization to being something more more public yeah um so and you can really see this once you once you travel around the world I guess more so when I was a Freemason when I was traveling
Around the world um yeah you know you look in Australia New Zealand even here in Germany you really don’t see that you don’t see people publicly we Sonic paraphernalia you don’t see emblems on the back of cars you barely see Lodge buildings out in plain view maybe more
So maybe more so in parts of um um Australia but not not like you see in the United States so so Europe and South America is much more that old school you don’t see us coming probably setion two would be the Philippines the Philippines are probably a little they’re a little
More showy as well I I would say that that’s that’s that’s that’s a cultural issue with with them yeah I’m curious in a good way and hopefully to share why is Catholicism against this so much because it does seem from my reading that early on stop me if I’m wrong please that the
Catholics were kind of on board with this was there was there a shift and did protestantism kind of take hold here and use a little more yeah definitely prior to 19 I’m sorry prior to about n 1723 before fer adopts this Constitution which makes them a philosophical organization rather than
Just some operative Guild of men coming together for bus make business deals and to uh make some money Cath the Catholics wouldn’t had any any problem with the freas as a guild or as a organization of people just coming together for labor opportunities in fact the the the Guild of stonemasons
Was very Catholic before it’s very Anglican okay and then Puritan you go back to the 700s and the 600s you look at some of these stonemason gilds they have their own Saints they’re participating in festivals they have a priest in in every Lodge there and these are the Builders of the great Cathedrals
And monasteries and edifice throughout Europe these these men were very Catholic you can look at a document called reges manuscript this was a a code by which Mason’s like a charge by which Masons would would live by and so in that document read manuscript one of the oldest charges the Freemason you can
See things like the Holy Eucharist we kneel for it they say um Devotion to the Catholic Church very Catholic and so what eventually happens these these operative guilds the stonemasons you know you know things just you know technology advances you know and so does how people do business
So there was a time when the guild started to fade away but the stone masons had the most money and so as smaller type of guilds or closings tapestry um metal workers and all these other types of guilds especially in big places like England they started all converging into the stone Mason guilds
For a number of reasons again the stone masons had the money they they were doing the biggest project so if you were a person who just working with embroidery you want to hang some curtains in in a building well this is the guild you wanted to belong to
Because after the Stow Masons were done you could get some contracts you could come in and make some money the problem in places like England where you have like 17 stonemason gilds at one point in time was England wasn’t very uh it wasn’t a very friendly place for
Stonemasons to be if you didn’t belong to the right religion so you had Catholic stonemason gilds Puritan Anglican um you know more strictly calvinist you know you just had all these different sets of stonemason gilds who weren’t working with each other if you’re a Catholic you’re trying to join
This Guild over here that had a bunch of Puritans in it well you maybe they you join but you weren’t going to advance you weren’t going to get any business opportunities so a number of these Stone Mason gills come in England come together in about 176 and um some of the leading gilds
They come together and they say you know you know just basic terms hey guys we got to settle this issue so we can make some money and so their idea of settling religious differences so they can come together make some money was hey let’s put religion to the side and let’s find
Something we all agree on and so this is what this is when Anderson’s constitution in 1723 comes on is written so Anderson’s Constitution you see it written written in in the first article of this constitution Jonathan that we what we all agree on is that on the universal religion by which
All men agree the universal religion by which all men agree putting Petty differences to the side and so right there in his first article in his Constitution this organization calling itself the Grand Lodge in England has in that first article calls itself the universal religion later on down in the
Constitution it it talks it speaks of freemy I mean sorry it speaks of um the members own personal religion as their opinion so your religion is your personal opinion but what’s important is to put that aside and accept the universal religion by which all men agree this that we all
Agree that there’s some sort of just a deistic God that doesn’t have a son that let’s just agree on this just basic thing and it’s it’s an interesting concept to start a new religion to put other religions down but this is the point the first point by which the
Catholic Church sees that there’s a big issue here because we’re talking about indifferentism the next problem that that happens is that Freemason brings over a lot of the stuff these are the same people there’s there’s a clear line between this new philosophical society that that calls itself Freemasons in the
Stow Mason Gil because we see the same members we see the same language so this language comes over they’re still using words like warrant in a stonemason guilds if you want to start up a guild in I don’t know some town in Ireland you had to get a warrant from the city so
Freemason still use the word warrant and in Charter you had to have a charter they’re still calling the initiates enter The Apprentice because if you’re going to join a stonemason guilt you enter as an apprentice then you move the fellowcraft and move from fell into The Apprentice the fellowcraft you have to
Prove Proficiency in your work you have to prove that you learn to work from your master Freemason still used this you know which is a philosophical principle to prove proficiency it was with words and understanding that you knew the science um and the teachings so um so all this stuff comes over Jonathan
And so but then a little bit later we’re the same point in 1723 they really start building out these so-called masic degrees which were at first just obligations kind of like a stone Mason would take you know promise to be faithful to the master not give away the
Secrets of the trade now there’s these mic Secrets intill these obligations so these elaborate degrees start being built start be built out and then they had a so-called third degree called a Master Mason degree back in the stone gills there’s no such thing as a Master Mason degree you’re enterpren you’re a
Fellowcraft and then if you’re really good after about seven years you know your master sets you free say it’s okay now you can go starts your own Guild you know go do your own thing you’re a master um so so this building out of these degrees you know the Catholic Church
Sees a problem with this so in the first 10 years of freemy from 1716 to about 7 to the early um 1730s there was an explosion of these Masonic exposes these guys I don’t know who they were I don’t know if they had a grudge with the
Freemasons I don’t I don’t know but there’s an explosion of people revealing these Masonic degrees one of the most famous was was Pritchards and and so um so the constitu take the Constitution which is problematic it’s indifferentism you take these masic degrees which has these Oaths which are
So problematic for for the Catholic church because at the bottom of every oath at the end of each oath okay it’s one thing to say okay I’m not going to reveal the secrets of this degree but then it concludes by saying so help me God well no it concludes with
All these punish M all these death penalties that you’re supposed to receive if you reveal the secrets so gross and disgusting you know you cut off your throat you take your bows out these these weird things and then it says so help me God and keep me
Steadfast so Pope Clement the 12 in his paper Bo enmity in 1738 he has a big problem with that he mentions it he says these these Oaths they take and he talks about the indifferentism he talks about he calls it naturalism ISM and um it also talks about the moral law of
Freemasons that Freemasons have their own moral law to on moral code which is a big problem for him because if you’re obligated by the Freemasons to come to a large meeting your summons on the day of a holy day of obligation yeah um you have to choose yeah either
You’re gonna obey the Summons of your master and go on on say the Feast of the IM conception it wouldn’t have been M conception by then I don’t know feast the pipy or something like that um you you have to choose whether you’re going
To go to oby the summons or go to the holy day of obligation so Pope Clem of the 12 has a big problem with that so for these reasons he issues um his paper ball m in 1738 he also adds in a couple political issues you know that
Freemasons are media in secret which is causing rumor suspicion he says and um and so this is a big problem just in Europe in general because they they think the English people are exporting freemac to Spain and these other parts of Europe and they’re trying to um export parliamentary rule this rule of
The people into places that still had a king and a marar big problem for the Catholic church because your monarchs and your kings are friends of the Catholic church because they have the armies and so um so Catholic the Catholic Church doesn’t is not fully on board with this
Whole republic democracy you know this this constitutional type of government sort of thing um because they see it as a threat and the people see it as a threat monarchs and people throughout Europe they see this as a threat and who are these people meeting in secret talking about building but they’re not
Building anything and so they were right um it wasn’t just the Freemasons but a number of subgroups that have Freemasons also as members meeting throughout Europe and so we see by 1848 when we see this the spring Revolution throughout Europe which plays a big part in destroying a lot of
Monarchies um a lot of these subgroups and a lot of these groups involved with with the Freemasons this exportation of freemer throughout Europe from England um you yeah Pope Clement and in in for these reasons in m in 1738 is one of our most prophetic and one of the most important paper Bulls
Ever written in the history of the Catholic church and no paper Bull in cyclical Apostolic exhortation canon law um that that has ever been written in regards to freemer has refuted anything Pope Clement the 12 has said rather in fact they’ve only supported it someone
Like Leo the 13th when he gets to his human genis he only builds upon the point that Pope Leo said about naturalism and quite eloquent ly and and so this is the dogmatic teaching of the church that you cannot be a Catholic and a Freemason for these theological
Reasons that it is indifferentism it is presenting a different type of Truth you you can no long no more be a Catholic and a Freemason then you be a Catholic and a Muslim these are just two competing ideas that are irreconcilable with each other and so that this is the teaching of the
Church and and so that’s the early history of how it all began yeah thanks it actually makes a lot of sense to me now so it’s like well if I if I was a free ma Mason I took an oath with masonry as you were kind of
Saying and there’s a ho day of obligations yeah this is this to be very um there a contradiction here and it seems like Christ is not the main focus right it seems to me that’s probably the biggest biggest problem of all right it’s like as you said earlier in the in
In in in the interview was like yeah you know you didn’t want to hear Jesus’s name early on right the Masonic groups allowed for that exactly and I guess I should have added to that the point that so in a philosophy of Freemasonry when you’re when you believe that these working
Tools whether it’s a compass whether it’s a gavel what whatever these working tools you’re presented with the first few degrees and into the Royal Arch and into the Royal select that those those are degrees that we would call craft degrees because they actually relate to the building of King solon’s
Temple other degrees that you find in a Scottish W further New York right are more like degrees of shivalry they involve Knighthood but it’s the same principle is that these degrees they’re teaching you how to be a better person out outside of Christ and his
Church and his grace so if I can make myself a better person just by following the principles that these working tools such a such as the GV Freemasons they would say we’re supposed to use the govel to break the off the rough stones of your body your spiritual Temple thereby
Making you worthy and fit to fit into the what do they call it the some sort of edifice in in the heavens or something like that and and so this this is weird so I I can make myself into this there’s a path to Heaven just by my
Own work outside of we’re talking about pelagianism we’re talking about a lot of heresies yeah that the Catholic church has has done away with so and so freasy in my book you may have saw this and I saw I talk about freemasony as a religion something I acknowledged when I
Was a Freemason I think I wrote an article when I was editor Sonic Globe I published an article in there it’s called freemies of religion as an an in a freem I knew that you freem are idiots for denying this you’re fake here’s the reasons why and so that’s and I use that
The same idea I know I only not only see F FAS as as a religion but understanding now sacraments and I’m looking at the degrees as like fraudulent sacraments because the three degrees this is what they’re doing they’re instilling in you um um a teaching or some sort of um
Princip principles by which if you follow these things you’ll somehow advance and become this better person this false Grace So this this this a false sacramental system as well so there’s it’s it’s it’s problematic on many levels but really altogether what Freer is doing it’s really participating
In an ongoing work that we we first saw in Genesis this idea that um that the goal of Satan is really just to get us to deny god um this is the words he spoke to Eve did God really say that this so this this participation in this
Den now of God so what Freemasons are doing with this by these these demonic Oaths by which you you you promise to this god of death that you can kill me if I reveal the secrets um this denial of being able to say Jesus Christ in law this denial of
Grace that I can make myself a better person this is all atheism this is all a denial of the one true God there’s been a lot of organizations that come along and do that done this communism is another one the LGBT movement is another one transgenderism is another one there
Been a whole lot of systems that’s participated in this denial of God but foras probably has been probably the most successful one um that that’s come along just because of the political compon component the things that he did to create this idea of separation of church and state turn schools over the
State turn marriage over to the state yeah I’m glad you said that yeah that’s exactly what I was thinking in my mind with the separation of church and state here and the indifferentism as as you were saying it’s it’s it’s Pope Pi the nth and Pope Leo
13 they always blame the Freemasons for this assess of this idea they they thought formations were integral throughout Europe in leveraging governments to um push this idea that there’s there’s that the state can have its own moral law that’s detached from the church the church’s moral laws so this
Is the first New World Order the First new world order was the order of the states being the source of moral Authority so um I don’t I the thing I’ve been amazed with is that I don’t know how you undo that successful um that win by the Freemasons I mean we
Just live in a world now where we we most people believe I don’t know most but at least a lot of people believe that whatever the state says is true whether it’s about abortion whether it’s about anything oh yeah oh is the law oh it must be
True well they look at as an authority it’s amazing they look at as as an authority or the the newspaper that used to be somewhat of an authority that people uh bow down to what if Aon was listening and he was like well okay I
Like that but U I actually do believe in God he’s saying so I’d be curious how you would respond back to him I think it’s difficult Jonathan for if if the man is a Protestant I I by scripture alone yeah I I can’t I can’t I
Cannot make a defensive case of course I could point to things such as you cannot serve God in m i could I could point to scriptures that say you shouldn’t take Oaths I can I can make a strong case imp and explicitly from scripture I could
But only the Catholic I can make the strongest case because I’m able to say well this is what the church teaches the church has taught this in 1738 the church who Christ instituted to help you get to heaven to be a moral authority to to teach you what is good for your soul
And for your spiritual life and the church is mother you know is here to guide you and this what a church teaches so I can make a much stronger case for a Catholic just for a be than I could for Protestant was was the um was the kns of
A Columbus a reaction I was just thinking about that I thought I read that a little while back was the Knights of Columbus formed as a reaction to m to the Masonic movement yeah that’s definitely one of the reasons um in in the late 1800s and it was largely remember in New
York you know these are largely you know a lot of Italian Guys you know this how the ni CL starts off yeah my grandfather Yeah it’s so it’s very interesting that you know these these guys with Italian Heritage belong to freemy and but that that was you know a
Lot of Catholics have always belonged to freemy despite what the church teaches I mean it’s talking about place like Austria you’re musician you know um um Biden you know he’s another one and he really wasn’t really he didn’t stay with three B three he’s kind of turned
Off the night of his initiation because they said some really weird things to him this is definitely one of the reasons why they thought men need a fraternity so the night of Columbus comes along I think they I think they help for a while that’s good they’re
Probably not doing the rituals like you see in missry were the next getting cut right right right exactly I’ve noticed that a lot of ethnic groups each have their Masonic thing as you were saying the Prince Hall Masons are primarily black and I’ve read a lot about Jewish M masonry and then
There’s the the Muslim so I guess my question is um why why the separation if it’s so Universal yeah yeah that’s that’s a fascinating um historical question that that touches on The Human Condition as well how hypocritical that I think humans can be at times even when they think that they
Have something that that’s good and and beneficial but it says more about freemer that if freemer is what they say it is that it truly does make good men better that it’s you know all these little says that they have that freem just it’s the handmaiden of the Bible you know that it
Um that makes a a good man Square you know all these all these little if it’s all that then why historically have we seen that freemer has been quite discriminatory at times throughout the world I just black Americans when Prince Hall Prince tried to get into a mainstream Lodge right they they were
Quite indifferent to him and but he being successful he be he you SE a warrant from the grand L of England which may have had something to do with the Revolutionary War and maybe them being just a little bit Petty saying okay we’re gonna give these these
Africans a charter you know make them legitimate but you know not so not only them but um in India also in early on in the Philippines when the Spaniards came to the Philippines they they were Freemasons but they would not let Philippino men in so so this has been a history of freemer
Whenever it hit the ports with these Freemasons on these boats they would always whatever the country they will set their these Englishmen or Spaniards these French they will accept these lodges the Dutch they will AC set these lodges in these these foreign countries New Zealand but not let the Mari in
Australia but not let the aboriginals in um South America not letting the Mayans in you know wherever that that was always the first principle was to discriminate so that that’s the history from but then eventually you know the walls do break down and they do let the natives
You know in and the natives have always really been attracted to freem and once they got a hold of it and maybe it’s the idea of maybe keeping something away from someone to make them wanting to Crave it and then they they finally get in and then it sort of explodes
Um but yeah I think that’s just the history of f even in the United States right now so Prince all freas and mainstream freas have made a lot of strides since the 1980s I was in Ohio the princea Grand Lodge and Ohio Grand Lodge entered into some sort of
Mutual agreement so that members can visit each other they couldn’t join each other loges you know until you know I was the first one that that did that I think still the only one to this date but um but you look at this South I think Georgia just last year two groups
Entered into this agreement Mississippi it’s not happening Alabama not happening and both sides don’t want it to happen you know it’s mutual on both sides this this thing so faser is is fake right that it’s not truly a universal Brotherhood it’s a Brotherhood that’s really split along lines of
Ideology culture and all these things that are are very very human well that’s why I’m Catholic the only thing that’s truly Universal to me right yeah yeah exactly exactly exactly for is definitely fake and whether it calls itself the universal religion it’s never lived up to that only the Catholic
Church has I agree it’s so funny because I a lot of this reminds me of my time living in Los Angeles where I was very much a new age person so many of my friends still to this day really they would really be they’d really like what you were
Probably saying about Pras me be like oh this sounds really good it seems a lot more open then you know the Catholic faith were it was kind of hard for me when I returned to Catholicism because I stepped away from it for a lot of years
And said it’s hard for me to say Jesus is is really the truth and you know because when you’re in the new age it’s kind of like oh you can pick and choose this and that you know you can use a little Buddhism you can use little Hindu is you can use this
And that right you appeel to everybody and but when start speaking the truth you you you kind of do lose some of your friends too right yeah someone could say to you well doesn’t look like you’re very welcoming but it’s like I’m extremely welcoming but the truth is but the truth
Truth is not about pleasing everybody which is that where we’re at right now in our society right it’s relativ this I’m going to please everybody I can’t say the truth I’m going to hurt somebody’s feelings if I do and so it’s that peel that appeel towards um inclusivism with the expense of the
Truth so we want to be inclusive of everyone and we can only do that if we deny what was true I think that’s really really demonic but it’s interesting that in a world today especially United States that I’m surprised that freem is dying off or or losing a lot of members
Or not able to grow or retain a lot of members because it seems that it’s it’s belief that nothing’s really true that you can just kind of pick your own truth this this sort of um this alakar menu of religions we just bringing we’re bringing all the different religions
Together it seems like that would be very successful in American culture I I I don’t know what where where they’re missing with the marketing there but it’s very interesting the but also I I see the other problem is that sop free mry has this idea that oh everything’s true but also we’re gonna
Be very traditional and rigid right we’re not going to change what we believe we’re going to dress this same it’s still the same black suit white apron um nothing has so a lot of things about them has also very very static now this is an appeal for like Filipino
Men because for the same reason that you have a lot of Filipinos attracted to the traditional Mass they’re also attracted to freasy for that that static that tradition that connection to their past type of thing um so yeah so it’s it’s fascinating the places that freem works
Today in places that it doesn’t work for these the reasons of its philosophy and his indifferentism yeah that’s that makes sense that’s I was going to ask you that too like you know as the face of masonry changed and it appears that it h it has yeah definitely um in United States
You know once you get over the men who believed in fraternity you know your your generations of you know our fathers and our grandfathers the World War II the World War I the Korean War the Vietnam guys guys that came back home and they joined the the American Legion
Or V f w and you know those men who really needed each other and they had great codery with one another they they had values that they thought meant something and they want to connect with men who shared their same values this is really the boom of
Freemasony but now we’ve had a number of generations like you and I we didn’t have to fight in a war you know um and then our kids and our grandkids you know it’s um and freem doesn’t have that cultural appeal like it does again you I bring up
The Philippines because I think it’s a great modern example of how freemer could be connected to your past and your Heroes of your country like like they are like it is there and like there’s this national identity that’s connected towards freemer it’s very cultural but here United States yeah some of our Heroes
George Washington um Ben Franklin yeah yeah yeah a lot so many of the people who signed a constitution even like I said in Black America you know Benjamin troter deuty boys you know all the guys that started these historically black universities your your boua class all your Elites but it’s it’s not connected
To the national identity and so for that reason I think Freemon in United States eventually just you they’re always GNA have the money I guess they have a lot of money but I think as a fraternity I think it probably eventually Fades away because it’s not it’s not connected and rooted
To something much deeper but for that same reason Catholicism I think has to May struggle in United States because um in some places where faith is just shallow it’s not connected towards something deeper such as you need this to get to heaven you know and so we see so if catholism I
Think eventually fails in places like Italy and Germany and Poland and Ireland where it was cultural where it was connected to the national identity I think every I think ism is probably perhaps going to have to shrink perhaps everywhere I don’t know yeah Benedict Co Benedict wrote about that
Too I think he kind of said the same thing yeah I mean it’s funny because I wonder for my own self if that’s why I mean I think I even can understand a little bit the appeal to Freemasonry here like you say when the the tradition side like I am
More attracted to the Latin Mass uh although I go to both masses I mean I do have a a yearning for that traditional connection as well yeah I think it’s I think it’s important and it’s it’s I think a deep historical connection as well you know living here in Germany I’ve been I’ve
Written a couple of pieces about this wrote a little bit of series I didn’t call it a series but I was just really fascinated about the influence that Germany had on Catholicism and the kogan Renaissance with people like pep and short Charlamagne these people who really believe that the old Roman liturgy that
They could connected to their cultural identity and they even tried to export it and some all the cathedrals that they they built here such as the one over in aen Germany where charlam was was crowned it’s it’s such a deep history that I really don’t know where to
Catholic Church is with without the influence of Germany even resolving the whole Eucharist controversy so um so yeah traditional at mass is is definitely our heritage as just as human people and even those even even on a DNA level I think for people who have like a like you who have a historical
Connection as a person to Europe I think yes even in that way I think it’s a type of inheritance you know this this is what your people what people you descend from um your family your family lie this is even even if they were um Protestant just influenced by the Liturgy and the
Work that um these people did here so that that that’s what we have as Catholics who turned you on to Catholicism because it sounds like if I’m not mistaken I think you said you’re nobody in your family was Catholic right and it’s not you know especially for a lot of black
Americans not they’re not really usually turning over to to the Catholic faith it’s usually right it’s like Protestant yeah yeah that’s yeah that’s that’s that’s they have a lot of especially that be historical connection I think with lot black americ his historical connection would be who who if it’s if
It’s framed right I think it’s probably right that even though a lot of black Americans who you know a large percentage um due to Sin from those who were enslaved from Africa a lot of them were you know baptized and as slaves and then Christianity became their religion when
I was a pan Africa of course I framed that differently I looked at them as victims but we’re talking about a faith that got them through slavery that they they had the church they had the faith they had the songs and so I still so I still see the
Appeal that black Americans would have to to protestantism I think the Catholic Church definitely had an opportunity to end segregation to end slavery when she when she could have very early on all she had to do was have those blacks who were slaves and the Masters who were
Catholic and they that that was perfectly fine to catechize or slaves Catholic but when it came to MTH they would not receive communion with them at the same time that could have ended slavery segregation we could just looked at so church had an opportunity very early on to do something wow I never
Knew that David yes little a little bit sad but American Bishops and American priest yeah American Bishops American priests they had a little bit different attitude in Rome the Rome wanted the American Bishops to do something um radical about this even in the early 1900s they appealed to them to
Evangelize this this the blacks who are out of slavery and of course the Bishops what they did was you know they started a committee to look at the issue there a committee so so the reason why black Americans are still prestant today it’s not because I don’t think prism did
Anything amazing yeah that was the religion blacks had most blacks had doing slavery but the reason why blacks are um largely prosting today is because we just the Catholic church we just didn’t we had an opportunity to seize the market right um and we pass on it yeah no that that makes
Sense yeah but my so yeah when I became Catholic know when um that that was a little bit of struggle for me Jonathan because back then I was still like culturally black black I I would say it was still you said you were at least I
Was trying to be I was trying to be panafrican right were you you were panafrican right so you were wearing like the the African I remember you remember that man you remember that I remember all the 80s rappers that were wearing uh oh yeah oh gosh I love those guys were great
Man yeah the green black and red and everything the little you know course the little hat listen oh yeah I I was definitely I was you know my father was a black panther though so it was like um this this was just this type of thing was just you
Know in my DNA you know but um so by the time when I become a Catholic I’m still like culturally that’s a big switch for like but I was but I was always fake I was always faking because I I wor I was I was like um who is it Michael Irving so
Michael Irving this famous football player from the Dallas Cowboys made a lot of money and he raised his kids in Gat communities one of his kids now today is like this gangster rapper he talks about drugs and guns and all his videos he has a gun and Mar Arvin just always makes
Fun of him like dude that you’re raising a gated community that is not this is not your experience should being fake and that was like really my experience that was really my experience as well because I was raised in like a really neighborhood for like a long time and
You know I was only like black kid in most of my classes so but so but all my life I’m trying to like figure out what it means to be like you know cool and black so I ended up going to a high school that’s all black I switched and
Then I went to a university it’s all black trying to figure out what does it mean to be black so I’m faking all my life I join everything black so now I’m Catholic and I’m still still stuck with this thing he you know instilled in me
That I had to be black black black black black and I said oh I got join the black Catholic church and soan I started going to these black Catholic churches and there were just like pron churches all the songs all it wasn’t liturgy it wasn’t what I um I I don’t
Think I was going to traditional La Mass yet but I had at least went to the Byzantine I love the Byzantine and I thought that was like real liturgy that’s ancient the black Catholic churches to be very Catholic in regards to liturgy I thought they’re more Protestant and thank thanks be to God
That I realized that I didn’t have to be who my father wanted me to be like I still had that father W wounded that some of us have that you know you’re still trying to live up to your father and his expectations and and and I finally realized
That I didn’t I don’t have to be this Cally black person he thought that was the ideal I could just be David I could just be me and I could be happy and um thanks to God I I made that leap in my late 30s and um I’ve been much happier ever
Since and and your kids converted to I think that always call that my my second conversion that was my second conversion yeah all my all my daughters yeah my whole family converted all my I have three daughters for my first marriage and then so they all converted
That’s great and their mom is still I think she I think she’s agnostic sometimes I’m confused by what she really believes but you know she didn’t convert but my wife converted after we got married that’s wonderful and a daughter that we have together encouraging them to really live their
Faith authentically as Catholics y you know even though they converts I still had that think oh yeah yeah yeah no exactly I think in my email or maybe I asked you a little bit about when Pope Francis issued a document um pretty recently right reiterating that no Catholics can be
Mason um yet it appears that uh possibly the bureaucracy of the Vatican is maybe infested with Masons how do we I mean is this the red meat section of the conversation h I was happy with the with the document Jonathan I was mainly because I was
Happy to hear because I’ve known for a long time ever since I was in the Philippines that Philippine has has a big issue with Catholic freem yeah I was happy that Pope Francis was maybe able to finally put to rest this myth that he’s a freem Mason which
He’s not um because in I think a Freemason Pope when I issue this document I I I just seem like counterproductive but I was also happy because you do have so many Catholics in the church even Bishops and Priests and Cardinals yeah such as a cardinal named
Winegar I think he’s another one of those austrians who’s who’s calls himself Freemason he’s a cardinal um I saw so happy that the church Revisited that issue and and and Fernandez from the the castry for the doctrine of Faith which I tend to call the disaster for the doctrine of
Faith but you know every now and then you know you can really get some stuff right you know and I think they really got this this one right and I was really happy about it that’s good that that that’s good that’s a great way to except
Oh I would say except I I would give this one caveat that it still seemed to be this whole belief in subsidiarity ISM that Pope Francis loves except when it comes to traditional at Mass you know he wants to believe oh we should resolve things at the local level let the local
People figure it out they know the issue best except for a traditional lass I’m just gonna make this a whole you know I’m gonna this I’m gon pose this from the top right but so I I really wasn’t happy with because the Filipino Bishops they really wanted some help from the Vatican
They wanted some hard guidelines is something like a a um traditionist custodia something like some sort of hard Hammer like give us some help yeah but they came back with the subsidiar ism this you guys can sort of figure this out we definitely support you here’s the clear teaching now go back
Home and and figure this out I was disappointed in that part I thought they had opportunity there to really bring down a hammer yeah go a little harder right yeah yeah yeah well at least the document got out there right yeah yeah yeah we’re a little busy now
You guys go home and figure it out okay yeah we have we have better things do we’re wor about climate change here got the vaccine and the climate I got David I just want to say thanks it’s it’s really uh I I I enjoy talking with you
And your mission and your vision and everything is is is wonderful and such a an a to many of our my Catholic faith for for sure and I know many other people out there quick question is father is Father hell now around is he is he is he napping or where where is
He yeah probably by the time you put out this video edit this video and everything people should see a couple more father hell it’s probably a long form and probably a um a short so father father hell he’s um I spoke with him you did he’s doing well oh good cool in
Florida right now but um something happened recently that um he needs to talk about so oh okay yeah I was gonna ask if if he was around he could end us in prayer but you know he sounds like he’s in Florida yeah he’s in Florida so he can’t
End Us in PR too bad we’ll have to get him next next time right that’s funny I guess I’ll just have to let you maybe if you’d like to end us in prayer today what do you think oh yeah thanks for the opportunity I’m know the PO fill of your spirit too
Than too Lord God be come before you now seeking your mercy in your blessings we ask that you continue to bless your people fill us with truth and guide us um to you and to all that is good and true we ask you to bless jonan apostate and all that he’s doing with
His partners that more people will um find their way back home to you and grow in the spiritual life you know we ask this through your son jesus’ name amen father son Holy Spirit
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