Hi I’m Scott hun and I want to welcome you to the road to emus a podcast from the St Paul Center uh today we’re going to be doing a special episode of our podcast to respond to a number of questions and objections that have been raised regarding a um an interview that
I had with my dear friend Matt frad back on October 19th Thursday morning and then also some flak that I got from a talk that I gave a week later on on Thursday evening October 26th both of these the interview and the presentation on Thursday October 26 were
Drawing from my book with Brandon McGinley Catholics in Exile biblical wisdom for our journey home and it generated a fair amount of u of push back and some of it I suppose was um hostile adversarial uh some of it was more friendly fire but I just want to stop
And just clarify my purpose for our special episode today is to respond in terms of what I receive as a fraternal correction and I’ll clarify that more as we move on but I want to welcome my dear friend and partner here our vice president at the St Paul Center Rob
Corine welcome back to the special episode pleasure as always so let me explain what I am responding to and then perhaps later on we can actually incorporate that clip so that people who have not seen it or heard it might know what I am talking about but uh I want to
Just say this that when I get from people whether it’s direct and private like you read in Matthew 18 or if it’s indirect and public and might seem to be somewhat adversarial tone I think the only Safe Way for someone who wants to be a saint to to
Respond is to accept this as from the Lord as a correction and it might be delivered in a nice soft envelope where it might be delivered in something that isn’t so soft but the importance of fraternal correction to me is undervalued the value of fraternal correction is not only growth in
Humility and teachability but also it affords me the opportunity as a teacher to uh offer Clarity and greater precision and also in this case I really believe to offer a correction to something that I said so when I receive this fraternal correction and a number of my close friends and co-workers have
Shared with me what they’ve been seeing online uh I took it to prayer I wrote it up in my own prayer Journal took it to my spiritual director as well but I really believe like what Joseph would say to his brothers near the end of Genesis whatever you meant it for God
Meant it for my good I’m also inspired by the example of one of my absolute favorite theologians namely St Augustine who in 426 ad around the age of 72 published something unique and that is it’s often mistranslated as the retractions in the Latin retractation uh might be a better
Translation and it’s not simple it’s not simply retracting what he had said in his earlier works but he’s going back over all of these earlier works of his and these are reconsiderations these are revisions and I suppose in some instances perhaps they even rise to the
Level of a correction and I would say in this case I want to respond by acknowledging the fact that when I gave that interview to Matt we had a blast you know uh and when when you’re doing an interview you you kind of forget you
Know what it what what what it is that you would give in a classroom lecture or what it is that you would publish in a book you know I can really relate to Pope Francis I suppose on this point because when he’s giving an interview he’ll often toss the script and do what
He often describes as make a mess and perhaps uh I made a mess so I want to pinpoint what it is that I said and then adjust what I said and indicate what I should have said maybe sweep up a little bit that’s right yeah the mess so the
The the precise line that I would retract is this careless if not Reckless line that it is heretical to say that the pope is the head of the church what I was talking about at the time was the Catholic Church as universal encompassing what the catechism says all
Three states the church in glory the church triumphant the Pilgrim Church that is the church militant and the suffering church now the pope is clearly the head of the church that is visible that is the church throughout the world that he is the head of all of the
Churches if we understand the different rights that compose the Catholic church and so it was wrong of me to say that it is heretical to say that the pope is the head of the church because the pope is the head of the church and in the first Millennium there were some councils that
Said that in the second Millennium you have a number of popes uh I have a lot of these sources in front of me now and I I really want to stand by the fact that it would be wrong to say that the pope is not the head of the church in
Any sense no the pope is the head of the church in a very particular sense and what we see in the catechism what we hear in Vatican 2 we hear especially in Pastor eternis in Vatican 1 back in 1870 is that the pope is the head of the
Visible Church throughout all of the world throughout all of the Nations and I just want to basically say it was wrong of me to say that it’s heretical uh you know one of my favorite movies is a man for all seasons you know and uh when Thomas Moore is uh engaging with
His son-in-law will rooper you know about Luther being a herotic and uh now that’s a word I don’t like that’s right well it’s not a likable word not a likable thing and so I usually avoid the HW like the plague but uh at least twice in the span of seven days in the
Interview with Matt as well as in the presentation uh in the gallery then on Thursday October 26 I said it and uh I hereby retract it and I also want to just thank God for the occasion of Grace that comes when you realize that in order to make a
Point you kind of state it carelessly you you you state it sloppily you state it in a way that is misleading at least if not inaccurate and I would say it was inaccurate to the point of erroneous in fact if you took that statement out of its context you’d have to say it’s
Heretical so you know I I want to put it back into context but before I do what I really want to do is once again just give public testimony to the Gratitude to to the people not only the ones who brought it to my attention who were you
Know sort of supporters but to the ones who brought it to everybody’s attention because they were really on to something and so whatever their motives thank God for their desire for faithfulness and uh I just I want to thank them too because however they meant it it really and the fact is I’m
Not here to appease them I’m not here in effect to um to Plate them they they might not be plated by what I’m going to say you know but I am here to please Jesus I want to if you cause confusion you have an obligation to clear it up
And you clearly confused people who had an orthodox understanding and so I think you know it’s it’s a it’s a goodes me yes yeah it’s not just me doing a favor to them it’s me doing a favor to me and to the Lord and his people and to
Justice that’s right you know I don’t know exact where to begin but I suspect that a good starting point might be this phrase that comes from a book by one of my favorite philosophers jacqu maritan in the 20th century he wrote a book called The Three Degrees of knowledge
But it it’s actually entitled on the when you look at the title page it’s distinguish to unite and no wonder because that’s what his master does St Thomas ainus does what any good Theologian does perhaps better than any other Theologian and and that is to make distinctions you know that we have
Distinction in unity and it’s a very important principle perhaps the most important principle in theology in our tradition and that is to distinguish not to separate not to oppose or divide but to distinguish to unite and to show how these things are related now there are obvious examples of where we need to
Distinguish to unite in the early church we distinguish one God from three persons all right we don’t distinguish one God from three persons to separate them we distinguish to unite the tri unity and perhaps even more obviously it’s the case in christology we distinguish the human nature from Jesus
From his divine nature in order to show how his person his hypostasis forms what we would describe as the hypostatic union of these two Natures they’re not mixed they’re not confused but they’re not separated or divided and if you distinguish to divide there’s there’s a name for that it’s nestorianism that’s
Right and later on it’s I say this with a certain amount of reverent affection for my own Roots protestantism Sola scriptura well even if scripture has a certain unique role that you know is different than tradition or you know faith alone uh and so the idea that you
Want to emphasize something so much that you end up negating other truths that are indivisibly united inseparably connected and I think that’s exactly what I did and I I don’t ever go back and listen to myself I suppose if I end up in purgatory that might be a painful
Part of the process of being purged but I did go back and listen to this and I realize that you need to distinguish to unite and in this case I would say what it is that we need to distinguish is what the catechism teaches what Vatican 2 teaches what the early church teaches
What you find in Ephesians and Colossians and elsewhere and that is when we profess our belief in the Holy Spirit and in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church uh we’re talking about something that transcends the Earthly Catholic Church the visible Church where the pope is indeed the head of the visible Church
You might even describe him as the visible head uh but in no way does he usurp Christ’s headship and so when you hear in Ephesians 1 uh Paul says in Ephesians 1:22 he has put all things under his feet and has made him Christ the head over all things for the church
Which is his body the fullness of him who fills all and all he’s talking about something that transcends the Earth and that is includes the heaven where Christ is enthroned as the King of Kings where he is the head of the mystical body and yet as the king of kings in heaven he
Left behind on earth a visible head and that was the Vicor of Christ the pope Peter and all of the successors of Peter down to the present day with Pope Francis and as the vicer of Christ as the successor to Peter he is the head of the church he does oppose Christ’s
Headship he expresses it that’s right and so when we distinguish Christ’s headship over the church that includes all three states so in the catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 954 we read the three states of the church when the Lord comes in glory and All His
Angels with him death will be no more and all things will be subject to him but at the present time some of the disciples are pilgrims on Earth others have died and are being purified while still others are in glory contemplating in full light God himself Triune and one
Exactly as he is and so it it basically is distinguishing one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in terms of the church triumphant the church militant and the church suffering but there aren’t three churches and so when we identify Christ as the absolute head of the church in
All three states that doesn’t in any way take away the need to say that the pope is the head of the church the pope is the head of the Church of all Nations the pope is the visible head of the church on Earth and that bond is so
Inseparably tight that as Jesus says to Peter I give you the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven so that what you bind on Earth will be bound in heaven or will have been bound It’s a Kind of Perfect active participle there and so you don’t have the Earth Earthly tail wagging the
Heavenly dog as I think I might have said in my my conversation with Matt frat but once you recognize that the Pope’s headship is derived from Christ’s headship that it’s dependent upon Christ’s headship that in fact it participates in Christ’s own absolute headship that doesn’t diminish devalue
Or in any way decrease what the church has affirmed about the pope as the head of the church in fact if anything it establishes it it clarifies the mystery of the Pope’s headship as being something that is legal juridical institutional but more it really is sacramental and it partakes of this
Mystery of sacramentality that unites Heaven and Earth just as Christ unites Divinity and humanity and so if you distinguish to unite you end up discovering that that principle applies to so many things that you really end up with that Unity of truth but a unity in diversity where you know for most for
Most of our experience if you have that much diversity it threatens to subvert the unity but in the case of the mystery of the mystical Body of Christ that much diversity actually enhances the unity of the Catholic church just as we see the diversity of races ethnicities and how
Saints are drawn from all of these people in places and enhance the unity of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic church I would say that when we have popes down Through the Ages sharing in Christ’s own absolute headship their own relative share that participation that dependency uh that D derivation is
Actually far greater than any CEO could ever claim as he is the head of some Corporation indeed so you know it it is not heresy to say that the the pope is the head of the church it would be heresy to rule that out or to exclude it all together
Um but at the same time we wouldn’t want to say he’s the absolute head or he’s the only head even when we identify his headship over the whole entire Earthly Church uh we’d want to clarify it in the light of Ephesians 1:22 as I said I’m also reminded of what Paul tells the
Colossians in chapter 1: 18 after establishing the Primacy of Christ in chapter 1 verse 15 where he is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation for in him all things are created in heaven and on Earth visible and invisible whether whether Thrones or dominions or principalities or
Authorities all things were created through him and for him he is before all all things and in him all things hold together he is the head of the body the church the beginning the firstborn from the dead that in everything he might be preeminent so the Primacy of Christ and
His absolute preeminence in all of creation and in all of Salvation history actually serves as a much better basis for the headship of the Pope over the whole church on Earth than simply the number of votes that he got from the College of cardinals yeah he functions as the head of the
Body on on Earth but is a part of the body in respect to Christ that’s right and as you see Christendom crumbling as you see the Catholic civilization that we study in history as we see it disintegrating as we see it being attacked you can recognize why it
Is that after the French Revolution you know uh you you have the need by 1870 for the document of Vatican 1 entitled pastor eternis and I’m not going to bother reading extensively from this but chapter 2 part 4 uh as well as chapter 3.1 are both clearly establishing not
Only that he is the Vicor of Christ that he has pracy as the successor to Peter but that his promising implies a headship over all of the church and this is something that Christ by the power of the spirit Safeguard so dramatically so supernaturally that we can actually
Define here in this amazing document what the infallibility of the Pope and so you can sense that’s you know how we’re distinguishing okay he’s the Vicor of Christ as the Prime Minister okay he has Primacy as well and the Primacy is not just juridical it’s also doctrinal
It’s sacramental and so you you can acknowledge the fact that we’ve had Pope Alexander I 6 we had Pope Benedict the 9th we’ve had Pope John the 22nd we’ve had a a fair number of bad popes I mean uh actually far fewer bad popes than you had bad davidic kings in the
Monarchy that God established a covenant with through David and Solomon or even if you include Judas we had a better ratio than our Lord did in picking Apostles yes indeed okay so so there we have it but it’s not just pastor etern it is also the case that um this Vatican
One document is citing the Council of Florence in the 15th century the decree on the Armenians as well because when the Armenians were sort of becoming autosist but wanting reunion you know back in that period there was the need to recognize not just the unique authority of the Pope but his pracy and
Headship and the same thing was true with the east at Florence in the 15th century and and there there’s so much documentation for it there’s no excuse for me to say it’s heretical to call the Pope the head of the church I mean except for my rhetorical point you know
But I can’t help but wonder if that kind of rhetorical sloppiness that steps over the line and you know and again I want to say that to say that it’s heretical to call the Pope the head of the church is itself heretical I mean if that statement were to really stand on its
Own it would fairly impossible to contextualize or rehabilitate that and so as a Catholic again I want to use this as a teachable moment not only for me to learn a better way to speak but also for us to learn a better way to understand this principle of
Participation in Christ and how there’s a hierarchy I’m reminded of what St Thomas aquinus does not only in writing a commentary on the Divine names by St St dionisius but Saint or pseudo dianus is you know um writes this uh work called the celestial hierarchy and another one called the ecclesiastical hierarchy and
He’s the one who actually coined the term hierarchy back in the in Antiquity and so a hierarchy is not like a a pecking order it’s not a political power structure it really has to do with the fact that from the seraphim and the cherubim all the way down to the
Archangels and the angels the entire Angelic choirs share in the fullness and likewise in the ecclesiastical hierarchy explains how you know the apostles and their successors possess this plenitude but for the purpose not of hoarding it to themselves but really of pouring it out of lavishing it of administering it
Yeah it’s literally hos is priest right a hierarchy is the rule of priests so the the whole creation is ordered so that the higher mediates and serves the lower it’s the way reality is structured according to St dianis that’s right and so the idea of sacred order or a
Priestly order again it doesn’t exclude the lowest lay person because baptism confers upon us a participation in the royal priesthood of Christ and so it’s it’s different with the clergy it’s different in kind and not simply degree but at the same time we’re distinguishing to unite to show how the
Clergy and the Le are distinct but not separate they’re they’re they’re United in a way that goes beyond just again human votes so I mean I could go on and on I’m going to be teaching a course next semester on ecclesiology and so perhaps next year as
We begin the new semester we’ll have some episodes that where we can return to discuss these matters you know but in the meantime I wanted to recommend a few ecclesiological works you know my expertise is not ecclesiology and I realize that there’s a spectrum of ecclesiological opinion out there you
Know on the one extreme you have Cardinal Avery dolls’s book models of the church and it sort of here’s a model pick a model any model and back in the 60s and 70s I suppose you know that was uran but uh sort of a grab bag it really
Felt that way um a rather eclectic sort of arrangement and he even he later walked Walked that back um but you know I want to stand in the tradition that flows from St Paul well it begins with Christ himself through St Paul in particular St Augustine and St Thomas
Aquinus as does Charles Cardinal Jour now he might be the single greatest Theologian of the church in the 20th century and uh he was made a cardinal he has a series of volumes called The Church of the word incarnate and only one volume was ever translated and I
Think you and I both know uh something exciting that is in the work that was a shame and so somebody should get on translating it that’s right and so what we have done at the St Paul Center through EMAs academic is to engage a team of translators so that the entire
Work of Charles Cardinal Jour who was a favorite of practically everybody I mean and a co-founder with jacqu maritan of the journal novet vet threat which we also publish here at the St Paul Center Matthew Ling has sort of you know brought that into a whole new level of
Engagement for Scholars but this book of his that Ignatius published distills that multivolume series we want to end up translating and Publishing the entire series of volumes but this 2004 uh publication the Theology of the church by Charles Cardinal Jour I think is about as good as it gets now he was
Is n’t a Dominican but he stands in the he he he definitely stands in the Stream of the tradition of aquinus and aquinus is a master because he distinguishes to unite he distinguishes the the juridical order of the institutional church that we would identify with the Pope as the
Vicor of Christ as the successor to Peter possessing Primacy and infallibility and all of the rest and at the same time he would distinguish that from the Church the totus christas the whole Christ the mystical Body of Christ as Augustine and aquinus understood it which really sees that the church in her
Perfection you might say the church in her Essence but that doesn’t exclude the visible Church it doesn’t exclude the church that is suffering in Union with Christ and so I I want to be careful when I speak of essence I would say the church in her Perfection the church in
Her glory the church as it represents the Final Destination for all of the pilgrims that we are you know that is not a separate church with a separate head you know as I was saying in the interview with Matt as well as in the uh the presentation that evening on campus
In the gallery uh there really is a mysterious Unity here that is not in any way threatened by distinguishing the three states of the church Heaven Earth and under the Earth in fact you end up with is more than just a tight Corporation it really is a Corpus
Christi it’s it’s more of an organism than it is an organization and the Pope’s role is absolutely indispensable and you know if people are finding this a little bit too fast and furious too over their heads I should recommend in particular one chapter in my book reasons to believe how to
Understand explain to defend the Catholic faith in particular chapter nine where I I I I I think it’s titled peace of the Rock Only it’s p a CE a typical pun you know from me but that whole section of reasons to believe focuses on the Nexus the connection
Between the Old Testament and the new but especially the the the theic kingdom Covenant that Christ comes to fulfill as the son of David which had 12 Royal ministers likewise in the new but one prime minister to whom you know the the king gives the Keys of the Kingdom so
That ession and Primacy and headship as well as infallibility are all rolled up into one and traced all the way back to Christ who alone could vouch safe that guarantee the Gates of Hell will not Prevail against the church and so uh the other book that I want to recommend oh I
Just thought of something in my Catholic Bible dictionary there’s a very brief article if you feel like you’re more of a beginner and you’re just barely holding on I have an article in that Catholic Bible dictionary I think it’s entitled papal Primacy and I think that
Is also a very useful and simple place to start but this is a more recent book introduction to the mystery of the church that in fact is written by a Dominican Jour was trained by the Dominicans but this 2014 title that came out from Catholic University of America
Press introduction to the mystery of the church is by benoa Dominique DEA suo op and uh this I’m I was going to be using this as a textbook for my undergraduates but I think it might be a little too steep of a climb for them but this is a
Magnificent treatment as well and so you know there are other books too I’m thinking of cardinal shorn’s book loving the church which was a retreat that he gave back when Pope St John Paul II was still the pontiff are you writing your syllabus right now yeah as a matter of
Fact yeah and that is going to be one of the the textbooks that I do use oh am I legible and transparent or what U any any concluding thoughts that you have Rob as we wrap things up yeah I I also had seen some of those things and
I knowing your teaching um and being familiar with it I immediately saw what you were saying and sort of dismissed those but I’m but I’m really glad that you did not do that and saw this as an opportunity to not say hey that that’s
Isn’t what I mean and do a he said she said thing and the the most tiresome thing on the internet I think is the the explaining away the explanation of how you got wrong what I said and uh and so I think this is this has been really
Worth doing I would throw in another uh to the the book list oh another Dominican a classic short book so I like to recommend short books people who don’t read huge books infallibility is this still in I don’t think so I’m going to borrow your
Copy yeah I I that is a mighty fine Dominican and a mighty fine short readable book yeah but I want to just just take it back for a second because you know when I became when I became aware of the criticisms and the Kur fluffle and all of this kind of stuff
I’d like to be able to say that just like a a Holy Angel I Rose above it I didn’t react I didn’t feel defensive if I didn’t go through the stages of grief and anger but that would be a total lie you know you know I I I went back and I
Listen to myself oh man you know I always um I I I I despise listening I always can think of a better way to say every single sentence but more to the point you know you go through the sense of like oh come on you could have
Understood what I meant listen to it in context but you know why would I need to burden the the viewer The Listener you know with the context as I intended it when in fact in that context I said something which is just plainly off and it came to my attention because smart
People people who know better you know were getting hold of me saying did Scott say this and you know what do we do with that and I’m like I don’t know uh you know when I was your age television was called books but I’ll go look at it and
Uh and so I’m I I again I think this is this is a salutory exercise both for the people who might have been confused as an opportunity to talk more about the papacy and as um as mother an not mother angelical but Mother Teresa once explained to father grelle humiliations
Can be an excellent route to humility yes well this is not 426 this is 2023 I’m not 72 like Augustine was I’m only 66 but this will probably not be the last of of my retractation I am sure as I go back over my Works my talks and you know all of my
Recorded ruminations I am going to have regrets and perhaps I’ll have opportunities to uh to clarify these kinds of things and perhaps even to correct things that were misstated um and so let this be today my you know my feeble attempt to help clean up the mess
Because you know the biggest mess I can a fact the change isn’t is the mess that I make in my own life in my own heart and in also my uh my reckless verbage and so thanks be to God and to Our Lady as well and I just send this out along
With you uh to everyone in the hopes that uh we can really bring greater Clarity and uh clean up the mess indeed all right in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit amen almighty God our Father in heaven we
Thank you for for the gift of Jesus Christ your Eternal son Our Savior our King the Lord of lords and the head of the church we also thank you for the papacy going all the way back to St Peter with all of his strengths and weaknesses and we thank you for that
Unbroken succession of popes that have given to us a visible head for the Earthly church and that how you have used him to bind and loose to proclaim the gospel and even when popes in the past have made a mess you’ve always sent the Holy Spirit to help clean them up
Help us oh Lord to take responsibility for the message that we make as well and help us to the to do the best job possible in purifying our hearts and in cleaning up our own lives that someday we will stand before you and behold your fatherly face and hear well done good
And faithful servant we ask all of these things in the strong powerful and Holy Name of Jesus and through his most Sacred Heart in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit amen well thank you for joining us on this episode of road to Emmas until next
Time may the Lord richly bless you
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