Welcome to the beyond the bucket Show podcast centered around optimizing all lives buckets we all have buckets we are balancing coaching entrepreneurial Ventures family passion projects and health let’s all take this journey together and become Bucket Fillers and here’s your host Chris mcain welcome back to beyond the buckets
Another fantastic episode here live in studio we have Mark gray he is the head officials assigner at boso as well as the instructor to all of the officials and uh one one person that I really admire as far as how he handles himself professionally and uh just a really good
Dude and I’ve known him probably for the last uh 10 or so years so I’m glad to have you on Mark Ray welcome to the program thank you thanks for having me Chris been a long time waiting been uh excited to be on the show I’ve seen many
Of your uh podcasts and with the great people that you have on here and just happy to be here for sure we’re supposed to do it over the summer but things things happen but this is the right time uh to actually do it so why we just
Start give us a fun fact about yourself that most people might not even know about you uh what one fun fact about me is that you know as serious I look on the basketball court when officiating I’m actually a really you know down toe guy who people can relate to really well
Um off the court um you know um I’m a family man have two great grandchildren that I I uh I love and family that supports me in the things that I do so um yeah Avid golfer so yeah that’s that’s a couple good things so so you
Mentioned so you’re a big strong dude and uh when they see you on the on the floor they might think or they have this perception of you um is that like an armor you put on so when you get out there you want to make sure that you
Have control of of the game and and kind of what’s going on or is that just you know you’re in game mode and you want to get to business uh um pretty much in in gay mode um they they call me smiley because I don’t smile a lot on the court
And people may think that as as a um you know I’m not an approachable person but I’m very approachable on the court off the court um when I’m on the court it’s just down the business and and giving giving the schools and coaches and players the best that out on the court
For sure and that’s one of the things that I really like is that professionalism that you have um you really go into depth when it comes to understanding your opponents and also understanding who you can put on certain games because as the assigner it’s your duty to make sure that you put the
Proper and the best officials on some of these best games um because some some of these guys can’t some of these guys and GS they can’t handle some of these high level games specifically in our league to talk to us about that what is your process when it goes to assigning
Certain um officials to games and uh and things of that nature um well I would be remissed in saying that it’s it’s all not me uh Scott Calvin who’s a co- educator and and pretty much holds the whole education under under his wing um we kind of have a daily conversation
During basketball we’re we’re joined at the hip pretty much trying to get officials in the right Place knowing the schools knowing the opponents knowing knowing the coaches you have to take that all into perspective when you’re assigning you just can’t you know put a put a official out there and say okay
Well do do your best um especially in the West Catholic athletic league and some of the higher up um A- League schools you just can’t put anybody out there so it’s a it’s a constant dialogue between Scott and I during the week of where do this where what’s the best
Officials to put on your game or or any other highle game and and make it a match so at the end of the night the coaches and and the players are satisfied with the with the product that we put put out there yeah like you said
It is it is a team effort and Scott I’ve known Scott for a number of years too back in the day I don’t know if you remember but I used to ref um and when uh PSI was around uh you know Scott was was educating us me and my buddy Nate
Anderson okay um and so I ref for for you guys for three years started to put me on like the last two years he started to put me on some varsity games and things like that and him and Curtis Russell yes um so you know I have a I
Have a unique perspective when it comes to officiating because I used to do it um I was still a JV coach so they wouldn’t give me games in our league but they would give me games and I would do the njbs and I would do AA so yeah I
Have a I have a strong respect for what you guys do and the reason why I stopped reing is because uh of people like me crazy coaches and crazy parents and that was the reason why I kind of got out of the game and I think for for all of us
We need to understand how important the officials are to our game because if we don’t have you guys we don’t have a game I agree we really don’t um and I think uh that’s important and I I feel like these next five years are extremely important because it can go one way or
The other I know you guys are doing a fantastic job of bringing in new officials retaining older officials so talk to us about the importance of how the referees are treated so you know we went through the whole covid thing um we lost a lot of officials during
Covid um after covid um officials started coming back but now you have the Dynamics of Co come coming back from covid and then the fans and some of the coaches um with with the fans I understand their their passion about their son or daughters playing and things and and
Kind of gets on the ref right um but there’s a point to where you can’t cross that line sure and I think these days most of the parents cross that line to where it’s just not fun for the officials because you know we do we do
Basketball for the love of it not for the money we’re we’re not rich rich doing this by any means so we all we all work regular jobs and and this is our passion so we do it but when you come out to a game and try to officiate the
Best you can in and you have parents just going in on you do um saying personal stuff that’s that’s where you draw the line and most officials can’t handle that if they’re just coming in so they I don’t need to take this for whatever whatever amount
Of money they’re making at night so so they just quit me um you you know I’ve been I’ve been in it for 18 years so I kind of know how to handle parents and and coaches and it’s all about relationships right right I can go over
To you and say hey Chris you know I don’t want to throw this parent out but we need to do something about and then I’ll know that you’ll take care of it or your Administration to take care of it right away right some of these younger officials they don’t know how to handle
That situation so they just get frazzled they won’t come to you or or any other culture or or Administration say hey can we take care of this parent they’ll just let the the parent or or the fan just keep berading them for the whole game
And then after the game they say I don’t need this I don’t I don’t take this so I think it’s a a conjunction of officials our officials in our association in any other Association if you have that kind of a a problem that you that you’re having you
Can’t concentrate on the game because you got parents or whatever um on you just go straight to the administration that’s what we tell all our officials if if you need to handle a fan go to the Administration further let them deal with it and if they don’t deal with it
Kick the fan out and then don’t start the game until that fan is gone so you can get back to business right uh yeah I think you mentioned a lot of things but um number one like our our social media we’re all sounding board so everybody
Feels like they have a voice and my feeling is people think they have a voice when it comes to this too and you know and we as coaches we get it sometimes too because parents think that they can coach better than us but did they put the amount of hours that we put
In did they put the preparation that we put in did did they did they you know whether they played the game or not did you study for the team that we’re actually playing against did you actually watch scouting tape which we do uh hours and hours and of that sort of
Stuff and I wish people would understand the official side because you guys are traveling far you know to there’s nowhere close really I mean depending on where you live I mean even if you live in Santa Clara and you have to come out to a Valley Christian that is hard to
Get to on a on a uh on an evening yes uh during the week yes and or if you’re coming from the South Bay you have to go up to Peninsula it’s not really easy to get there yeah then when you get there there are different things if you go to
A school that you’re familiar with maybe you see a familiar face with the administration they might sit you down here’s a place to change here’s this here’s that but some schools don’t have that some schools don’t have the infrastructure for the Administration to help you guys uh and then you might not
Have a relationship with the coaches this might be the first time it might be a new coach so it’s just a lot that goes into it and before the ball even tips like it’s just crazy and then you guys got to deal with so then you have your
Coaches meeting with the coaches but then you also have to meet with the players and then you have to meet with the table and then if you got a table that doesn’t know what they’re doing you know they’re putting one one person’s a veteran the other person’s maybe a
Student or a student athlete doing the home book yes and then you got somebody on the shot clock there’s just a lot of stuff that could go wrong yes um so talk about that process and what what is it like for an official as you prepare for
A game you got a game to the the next uh the next day do you reach out to your partner or Partners yes do you reach out to the school what is the process for an official to actually get to the game and tip the ball so you made a good point I
Mean the traffic in the Bay Area is crazy and our association we cover from all the way from Pao Alto to the Morgan Hill border so any any schools within that area they’re they’re traveling to on a given day um we try to tell the officials to be there at least 45
Minutes before their game but with traffic you and and job thing that that just doesn’t happen so you know most of the time we’re getting there 30 minutes before the game trying to find out a place to place to um dress um some some schools like you said don’t have the
Facilities like you know um other schools so most of the time you come in half dressed just have your shirt and your bag or something and just go into the locker room change real quick and you know we we ask the officials to be on the court 15 minutes before before
The game um to to observe the teams and then if if you don’t have a table that’s that’s experience because most of the is just kids you know and kids and cell phones don’t mix especially when they’re trying to trying to uh you know keep the clock or the shot clock or or
Or the scorebook um you know so all those things you have to take in factor and then it depends on the team is it is a contentious um uh two teams that’s playing where you have to do a lot of dead ball officiating a lot of talking
To them to keep them out of trouble and things of that nature so you know everybody thinks that officials just okay they don’t go to any trainings or anything like that they just come on the court no matter if they’re new or or 18 years that’s not true uh Scott puts on a
Very extensive training uh a month and a half before before the season starts so we’re going we’re going through rules we’re going through um um areas of of responsibility on the court with with other veteran officials that can help us out do doing that so it’s not just the
Officials just jumping on the court we we do give an extensive training training program before they step on the court and if you’re a first two-year official you’re not you’re not going to sniff a a varsity game you know for another two three five years so we just
Don’t put any official on any varsity game you have to work work your way up just like I did when I was coming up I didn’t I didn’t do any um Varsity Gams for the first two three years and then you know the more work I put in um
Trying to trying to hone in on my craft and that’s when people notice and and you get you get better games but you know officiating and assigning is is not a thanless job it’s officiating takes a lot of mental it’s a lot of mental things that you have to think of um you
Have to build relationships with coaches and players um and I think in in the era of now I think that officials do not take the time to build relationships with with coaches and and and players um you know and and I always tell them everybody has their Knack with a
Coach it’s how you communicate that Knack with the coach and and get get on the same page because you know if you’re just going to go in there and start giving technicals and and not discussing things with coaches that’s going to rub coaches the wrong way and they feel that
They can’t talk to you or or they know what kind of game they’re in for if if they if they say anything right you know so we want we want that kind of dialogue with all coaches and and and and official because it just makes the game
Better makes the game Flow better if you have a relationship with the kids you can go to a kid and say Hey you know might want to um stay a little bit Stiller on that screen instead of moving because you know that is an illegal
Screen and I I may have to call it next time and then the kid the kid’ll be receptive to that and they they will do what you ask them to do but if you just go in there and just this is my way no other way then that’s not going to B
Well for the officials or the coaches because it’s always going to be a chess match and how do you go about uh getting that rapport with coaches how do you go about uh creating those relationships with the coaches um I’m going to speak from my experience and there’s there’s
Three coaches or four coaches that I I really respect even though we’ve had battles on the court one one with you thank you um Ryan Cooper Kevin Mack and um I can’t think uh mcgilvery from some Santa CL so when you and I first met um I think I
Think I me was about I was doing one your again about six or seven years ago and I think we knew each other but you’ve never you had never seen me on the court sure and there was one call I made on on on one of your girls and you
Didn’t you didn’t agree with it and I just gave you we said that politely but yeah um you didn’t agree with it I I gave you my perspective of it and that’s all you can do is give your perspective I I said Chris I may have missed it and
It it but from what my perspective was that’s that’s what it was and you respected that and I think all the coaches that I’ve I’ve mentioned um kind of had that respect for me because they know I’m not going to give them any answer just to just to appease them I’m
Going to give him the right answer if I was wrong I’m wrong if I’m right I’m I’m right we can we can beg to to differ yeah um you know Kevin Max another one Kevin Mackin screaming me on the court about a call I missed and I can te him
Up but next day we’re just back to you know our regular friendship or whatever because I have that respect and I have that respect for all the cultes I mentioned and and all the cultes that I officiate for um and they they had a same same respect for me so and that’s
What we’re trying to get our younger officials to do as they come up in the ranks because we have some very good officials that’s coming up in the ranks and you might see them on some of your games or or or higher level Varsity games because they’ve worked their way
Up to building that trust with me and Scott and we know if we put them on a game with the more veteran official then that they’ll get the job done and it won’t be it won’t be any issues right well I think that’s the thing is is it’s
Got to be a two-way respect and um when I sat down with coup last week one of the things that he met mentioned was most of the officials are trying to do a good job and so if you approach it like that you guys don’t really want to mess
Up yes you know you’re trying to do the best you can and so if we see that as coaches then that’s where we can have that mutual respect if we don’t see that if you are the if you’re the trail official and there’s a call from the in
The leads area and you’re making that call and you’re back at the other side of the Court yes that’s where we have an issue because I know that you are going to fight for position yes and if you can fight for a position that gives you the
Best opportunity to see that if you are not in position that’s the easiest way that you’re not going to be able to make the call from my perspective now you might have a different perspective on it but if you were in the area if there’s a
Way that you can get depth like on the Baseline at certain schools things like that then you’re going to be in a far better position to actually see the call um but you know the positioning I think for me is the biggest thing if I see that you’re hustling trying to get in
Position and you just missed the call well at least you were hustling yes you weren’t 45 feet away from the call when it should have been the lead’s call not the trail um so I think that is a big thing from the coach’s side where it’s like okay this person’s trying yeah or
Like uh like Reggie the other day I had Reggie and we all know Reggie you’ll know Reggie if you even if you even haven’t even seen him cuz uh he’s he’s not he’s not 67 but he walks like he six seven yes and so I’m doing my thing I’m
Yelling at him I’m not really reie you got that what did the he’s like coach you got a question for me and all I could do is laugh yeah I just laughed at him because he was right I was like yeah you’re right you’re right you’re right yeah because he was
On the other side I’m making him not look bad but it wasn’t I’m yelling at him from the other side it would be one thing if he was on this side but he wasn’t I’m like R you didn’t do that yeah he’s like coach you got a question
For me and I was like that that’s Reggie that that’s I was like you’re right you’re right he’s like and then he you know how he almost swallows us go you got a question from me I said nope we good we good um so I think uh just one
Of the things that we talked about over the summer at um at one of your professional developments was just having some can responses to the coaches like coach I just didn’t see it I’m GNA you know work for the positioning next time or coach you got a question like
Reggie is there any can responses that you can give some of the officials that might be listening to this um you know advisor I I would just say that in and to speak on your point about um being being in a good position um Scott and I
Teach that in our training class you can’t be you can’t be in the wrong position and make a call that because although it’s perceived that coaches don’t know where officials need to be should be on the court they do coaches know the rules I mean because they they
Study the rules just like they know where the the call or the whistle should come from yeah so if they see a whistle that comes from out of the area where they don’t think it should be then yeah they’re they’re going to question you right and how you respond to that
Question is it’s going to be key because one it’s going to tell the coach that okay he’s he’s confident on what he saw and he he kind of know he or she kind of knows what they’re doing right or two the coach is gonna be like you just lost
The coach at that point because one you’re not in position two it was a wrong call and then you couldn’t explain it right right so you know it it it’s twofold I just tell I just tell the young officials and officials that I’m working with
Don’t be as the coach tell them what you saw tell them if you if you missed the call just tell him it’s not like you can do it every play down he he take the first one but the second third one the fourth one he’s going to question you
Know your ability to be able to officiate that game so I just tell him use the verb which that’s in in the rulebook okay Coach he wasn’t legal uh coach I saw the hit on the head the the the lead official couldn’t catch that it’s was an outside official’s call um
Just be short and and direct with what what your response is right and you just got have to move on after that what do you do when you lose a coach because you know is there any going back from that I do not once you lose a coach you
You’ve lost him because he has no confidence in in in in your ability to officiate that game and then that’s when Scott or I get the calls you know with with Clips um you know as officials we look at Clips too um I look at Clips all the time high
School and you know me being a college official I have to look at plays that that you know might impact the game and see what what I could have done better so um I think that if you lose a coach it’s it’s it’s no coming back always tell I always tell
Officials reel it in early so you don’t have to reel it in late if you let it get out of hand in the first you know first half of the game and then you try and reel it in in in late portions of the game there’s no reing that back in
So set your standard on what what’s going to be called and leave that that the whole game because you can’t go back and forth right and and that and that that makes coaches go insane too because now they don’t know how to you know call plays because the game is
So out of whack of what they’re calling and what they’re not calling you you as a coach pretty much know the officials that’s going to be there and you know what kind of game you can call based on the officials that’s going to be on that
Game right and coaches you got to make adjustments too uh depending on how they’re calling it if they’re calling it tight early then they’re going to call it tight late so you have to make sure that your players are adjusting to that and um I think there’s a lot of emotion
When it comes to basketball too I know that uh you know from a coach’s perspective we put a lot of stuff into it we’re dealing with a lot of different things we’re dealing with the 12 players we have on the team we’re dealing with the uh administ a we’re dealing with the
Parents we’re dealing with all these things that go into play now we got to play kids playing time all that stuff is just kind of going real fast and then you’re watching film and you’re studying the other team to try to give your team the best opportunity to win yes so
There’s a lot of emotions that it comes when it comes to coaching and does it need to be that much no I don’t think so but you know and talking with Sue Phillips uh the coach at midi you know sometimes the competition gets the worst
Of us yeah as coaches so you know I’m pretty calm when you just see me just like you are when we’re sitting here and we can have like a real conversation but sometimes if you’ve never seen me coach and I get to the floor you’re like who
Is that who is that dude is that because that’s not normally how you I said that a couple times yeah I’m not yeah I’m not normally like that and then right after the game is over I’ll always go to the officials hey it was all in the competition thanks for thanks for what
You did but you know sometimes I lose it I know that parents lose it because you know they’re just focused on their child and and their child’s um uh production on the court and there’s just a lot so and I think that if you can remain calm
As a referee that is your biggest asset and you do a good job Scott obviously does a really good job with it just a stoic demeanor even when you guys make a strong like a a tough call it might be a block charge where one coach thinks it’s
A block one think one thinks it’s a charge and you just kind of stand there and you you you know you hold firm there you wait you wait a second till things kind of die down yes I think having a presence even as a coach you got to have
A presence with with your group you have to have a presence uh in everything you do I think that is another thing from a coach’s perspective just have a have a presence even if you miss a call stand on the call okay for that time being
Talk to the coach if you come into the sideline if it’s a shooting foul because you’re G to be on their side yes say coach from this angle this is what I saw and you know I’ll take a look at it if you want to send me the clip later yeah
Because what can you say yeah you’re trying your best and and you’re trying to be in uh be in the right spots and if you if you are in the right spot and you’re doing your best then can we really say at the end of the day yeah um
But I think uh having a calm demeanor is extremely important while you touch on that a little bit um I I um I try to tell tell officials that as the intensity Rises on a on a game your demeanor has to be the same your intensity can’t rise with the intensity
Of the game because all that’s going to do is make it more volatile um in that nature so as as officials we know when the intensity is wrapping up and we either got to two do two things call the game tighter or talk to the players a
Little bit a little bit more to to keep them out of those those jackpots um and most it’s I think it’s just natural for younger officials that’s coming up as the intensity Rises they feel they have to rise with that intensity no it’s the opposite your intensity needs needs to
Come down because you need to be able to ref the 10 players on the court man manage um um you know players that are kind of out of control kind of talk to them kind of talk to the coach and and and let them know what what you’re
Seeing um so maybe the coach will just bring them out of the game and let them and let them relax for a little bit and then put them back in the game for sure but if our intensity Rises with with the intensity of the game it’s not it’s not
A good match because it’s just GNA get more more more crazy and and we’re just gonna I think our our as our intensity Rises then we we’re going to make more calls rather right or wrong there to to calm the game down and stop the clock as much as possible you
Want the clock to run you don’t want the clock to stop in those you’re going to call what you need to call but you don’t want to be ramping up fouls just because the intensity’s gotten up and that’s that’s your mechanism is to call more fouls the mechanism is to call less
Fouls talk to them and then let the let the game play out as it is for sure uh so I want to go back and forth there’s four there’s four people or you know four different sets of uh people that are involved in the basketball game so I
Want to talk about improvements that each one of these four can make so we’ll start with the coaches then we’ll go to the officials then we’ll go to the parents and then we’ll go to the players so we’re gonna start with coaches and I’m gonna give one so the first thing
That I think coaches should work on better would be number one is don’t live and die on every single call because there’s 100 plays well there’s basically you know 100 100 possessions in a basketball game usually uh unless you’re playing like a high-paced team there might be more but
Uh you’re GNA be on offense maybe a hundred times you might be on defense about the same amount so uh don’t live and die on every single one of the calls make sure that if it’s a if it’s a marginal call just let it go because you
Don’t need to you don’t need to keep that for later on because it’s just going to give you pens up energy so coaches don’t hang your hat on every single call wait until it actually really means something or it affects it if they call a hand check early on and like we get
This espec especially because in our league you guys let a lot of the more contact go if you don’t have us this is we’re playing in a tournament and we’re going against a team that doesn’t play like that well we have to as coaches teach our team not to put hands on them
Get your hands back all right they say they hit us first in the first two minutes we got two fouls well that’s that needs to tell us to don’t hang our don’t hang your uh hat on every single call that would be my first one for
Coaches what about you uh for me for coaches what what what I put a death there to after a while um is coaches just after every play it’s it’s a foul it’s traveling it’s 3 seconds it I mean I I take some Credence in it but after the
Second quarter when we’re not calling it and they’re still doing it I just I I don’t I put a de there to it I’m not listening to him anymore um I don’t I don’t give coaches teas but I give them warnings um I don’t even remember last time I gave gave a culture
T um but I give them warnings because at that point when you’re taken away from I’m supposed to be doing just by complaining about every every call on every play yeah then that’s taken away from what I’m supposed to be doing is refereeing 10 players that’s on the
Court that’s moving really fast in in in a very small area so if if if I’m going to miss a call because a coach is completely complaining about calls every play then I’m going to put a de there to it I’m going to give him a warning give him her
Warning and that’s enough sure I think just if if it’s valid I’m going to listen to it and and I’m going to look at it yeah but if it’s not valid and they’re just wanting calls then I’m not going to listen to it yeah so I think
We’re kind on a similar page like if I’m getting on you every time that’s a travel that’s a that’s a charge that’s a block whatever the case may be then it’s just it just makes it messy so that’s why I say like just wait yeah wait it’s
Gonna you know end up evening out coach your team and tell them hey we got to make the adjustment with the officials and then you kind of go from there so um yeah I think that’s number one for for uh everybody and then the the the second
One would be the um parents so parents I would tell them referee a basketball game referee a game one time it could be even little kids but try to get out there and officiate a game and see how difficult it actually is uh because it’s hard it’s really difficult so that would
Be my thing for the parents I think if you put yourself in somebody else’s shoes you can really see um you know what they’re going through what they have to go through and uh how difficult it is so that would be my my thing for parents um for
Parents Nate ramazani who you know very well they at Las gas they had a a parent tonight and he spoke on fans and parents and he made he made a good quote he said Little Johnny ER came home and said hey hey Mom or Dad thanks for getting on the
Rest that really that really helped I heard somebody told me that I think Sarah uh from from Las Gatt she told me that yeah so that was a good quote I I know parents most parents live through their kids and and want them to be better at sports or what they have but
The officials they have nothing to do with their child’s development all they’re doing is officiating the game on very little money and trying to do the best there can and and I think the parents need to understand that or put on some stripes and come out there because parents they think every little
Contact is is a file and in the rule book there’s two different files there’s there there I mean two different contacts marginal and illegal and that’s what we base base our file calls off of and if parents understood and or had a rule book and would read through the
Rule book they would understand what what US officials are going through during the game on on managing a game for for 32 minutes and and calling fouls that we think are are illegal um marginal contact is marginal contact you have 10 players in in a closed space
They’re G there’s going to be incidental contact and once parents understand there’s incidental contact and illegal contact I think they’ll better understand what our perspective is in calling fouls on yeah uh that’s a great perspective and um I just think back to my son who is uh he played in he played
In the basketball league and they were in the championship but a few games before like um the coach was gone so I I helped out and I coached and so I’m getting really into it yeah because I’m because I’m coaching and then I’m a parent too so then um the coach ended up
Coming and I sat sat back but then I’m yelling across get in this spots get in the spots for their defense and then um uh my son came he’s like there was too many people talking dad I couldn’t understand you and my wife is going
Crazy next to next to me yeah and then the coach is trying to talk to the to to uh CJ and the rest of the team he’s like I just didn’t know who to listen to and uh I was like dang that’s true and so
After that I just I fell back and I said I told my wife like we need to chill yeah we need to chill out and so I just sat back I didn’t say word the rest of the thing we we were in the championship game and the parents are going going
Nuts on both sides of the floor and I just I just sat there and I was just chilling yeah but the uh yeah it’s just too much emotion and it really doesn’t matter and on parents out there very few of your kids are going to go to college and play basketball yes
That’s just a fact yes that is the sheer number yeah uh there is a finite number of of opportunities to play at the next level and there’s too many kids that want to play yeah number two if they get to col col great if they’re good enough
To be play in college they’re going to be a pretty good high school player they’re going to be one of the best players on the team in the area and it’ll be very evident but if they are not it is okay yeah you don’t they don’t
Have to because they’re getting a lot of great qualities from playing basketball with a team having structure hard work dedication you got to be focused into what you’re doing sometimes you may have to sacrifice sometimes you may have to be in a leader ERS ship role there’s
Just a lot of great things when it comes to playing team sports and if you don’t you take that away from them because of your behavior it just leaves it for a bad experience we have kids quitting the game at an alarming rate on the on the
Men’s and women’s side boys and girls they’re not playing because it’s not fun because the parents are putting so much added pressure and it doesn’t matter yes when we take a poll of at the end of the of the year what do they mostly remember it’s never the actual game yeah okay
Unless maybe you want a championship but even so they think about oh the road trip to here oh the bus rid to here oh hanging out in the team room here yes uh or you know something funny that happened at practice when so and so trip those are the things that they remember
Yes um and like we do our goals at the beginning of the year the only there was one goal that actually equated to winning that was put up a banner whether it be CCS NorCal State whatever yeah that was the only one it was um teamwork it was communication it was dedication
It was have fun yes it was you know trust the process all that stuff and it had nothing to do with the actual winning so yes parents that would be one thing that we would probably tell you guys it really doesn’t matter the grand scheme of thing so yes exactly put on
Some Stripes yeah yes if you want to if you want to test it um the third one what can referees do better I’ll let you start on that one um I think as a whole in referees we can communicate better we can be communicators on the floor we can be
Communicate good communicators with um coaches um players I I think that we are too scared to any emotion of the game to approach a coach and and and give dialogue um or we run away from coaches that may have a question after a tough call I think as officials we need
To do a better job in in in regards to that because that just makes the game go smoother if if you in the culture are on the same page and not and not bickering and arguing the whole game then the game is gonna be so so much so much smoother
Right um you know we just don’t I I related to confidence your confidence on the court is going to exude to the coaches and the players if you don’t have that confidence on court is not going to exude and and that open line of line of communication I think
That’s that’s the key for for us to be successful in the coaches officials Dynamic of the game I think that’s yeah I think that’s well said and I’ll just piggyback on that a little bit I think just if you don’t know who the coach is in the pregame say coach I’m willing to
Talk to you just you know keep the respect Factor uh when we get a chance you know we’ll come and chat with you if you got any questions on anything and then you guys can just we can keep it moving from there you guys got any anything else okay great let’s have a
Great game and just keep it short and sweet and I think I think the pregame is is very important in in that kind of communication because when we when I meet with the captains um I’ll say you can come to us anytime right right attitude um right moment and we’ll
Answer any questions any questions you may have but we don’t say that to the coaches we just say hey good luck right you know so if we if we expand that to the coaches then they’ll know okay I can ask a question if it’s at the right time timeout or whatever
And and we can have that dialogue but if we don’t let the coaches know and it just happens during the game and we not don’t know how to handle it then that’s where that’s where the problems come for sure uh and then the last one would be
The uh players I think uh just a social media generation that we’re in now I mean you got people kids rocking babies going like this yeah three-point arrows uh all that sort of stuff um and uh you know you want to keep it fun yeah obviously
You want kids to uh enjoy whatever it is they’re doing but I do think that they’re some sometimes we’re not in the NBA NBA is entertainment yes at the end of the day it is um college is more of a business uh NBA is a business too but
They’re in the business of getting Revenue selling tickets and all that stuff so they they want to showcase their players and the talents that they have yeah but when you’re in high school just enjoy with your teammates high fives are good celebrations are good when it includes everybody but when they
I think when you start doing those other you know gimmicks because they seen Russo Westbrook do it you know the to small rocking the baby uh that just is a little too much um but it all trickles down from NBA to college into high
School and you can even see it at at the the the Youth Level too yeah um but I would just say just enjoy it with your teammates in your in in your group not don’t make the spectacle about you if you’re on the bench and you want to
Do the three-point Arrow that’s great everybody’s say boom on the three poter now so yeah uh yeah I think have fun but just have some uh respect for your opponent exactly and and sportsmanship is is one of the points of emphasis in for all Players Bench personnel and and
The fans so as as officials we’re going to we’re going to tighten down on that I mean if you give the celebration towards your bench and you know it’s the too small or the arrow or you know I I may come by and say knock it off that’s unsportsman likee if you’re doing
Directly at a player then yeah that’s when I’m going to come in with the immediate technical um there was one kid last year who made a fantastic dunk and then as he was running down he did the Slash the throat arrow and I I gave him
Immediate te I mean because that was it was towards the fans but it was it that was over crossing the line and you know if you make it respectful and and just trying to have fun between your team and and do it subtly then I’m I’m pretty
Much going to let it go but when it come to sportsmanship towards another player or or or or the stands then then that’s when I have to be more the other uh one more thing that I was thinking about when you said that is um see the the
Line behind me yes a lot of these coaches are very similar to that and so if you leave us alone we’ll be good but there’s been times where I haven’t said one word and that’s what because first of all no I don’t think any ref goes in
There like I want to miss calls yeah and I don’t think any coaches go in say I really want to get on the officials all we want is a fair game yes so if everything’s going well and we’re into the second quarter I still haven’t said
Anything and I this is the first time that I say something to you don’t get on me about Co that’s enough literally that’s the first thing I just said and so that that can also put uh us coaches now on the offensive because we’ve been chilling the whole game and now you want
To say something those are the ones where I’m like what I this the first thing I even said yeah and now now you got me I might have been at a five now I’m close to 10 yeah yeah and I I think I think that’s a lot
Of insecurities of when cult of your tenure and and and the other officials around they yeah you’re you’re right you may not say nothing for the second half and then when you automatically say something it it puts them on defense so the only mechanism is to okay Coach
That’s enough but you know at that point you got to give that coach a little little more rope because if he hadn’t said nothing he or she hadn’t said nothing for the whole first half and then you may see a call that you think is questionable and you ask about it you
You have that right as a coach and we as a official shouldn’t get on the defensive um and and let let our egos get in the way because you you question the call right it that’s what it’s about they’re going to question calls or or non- calls because they’re fighting for
Their team right and if you’re fighting for your team then we as officials have to understand that and and answer the question as best as our our ability can can answer and just give you an answer and and and move on for sure uh and I don’t like to be too negative or
Anything like that but what has been like the craziest scenar iio that you’ve personally witnessed whether you um evaluating the official or officials at the game or something directly that happened to you personally within a basketball game um I think it was and and and me personally it was me
And Scott Calvin on Kevin Mack’s game I think it was a second second round of the playoffs or something and they were coming down for they they’re on a break and I was coming down as as a new lead and his kid was going up for a
Layup was kind of Falling Towards the wall the defender was kind of going with them um and they both went to the ground um I didn’t have a call on that and I remember Kevin at half court yelling at me Mark that’s a foul that’s a foul I was like Kevin
Their their bodies are both going away from the ball there was very little little Conta attack and because Kevin was out of his box I could have gave him a te but he was fighting for his player so and he thought that was a that was a
Foul right in which I had a different perspective so I didn’t give him a tea I just said get back in your box that’s that’s what it is and and we just moved on so you know I have those kind of relationship with with almost all the
Coaches that that I officiate so they they’ll understand yeah they’ll be mad of the non- call or the or the call but then we can go right back to basketball after that they won’t they won’t Linger on that I I think that was one of the
Most one of the one of the plays of last year that that stuck in my mind all year and and me me and Kevin are are are great together out the court he he understands that my officiating and what he’s going to get every every night when
I officiate his games and I understand that he’s a fiery Coach and he’s going to fight for his kids and if if he thinks something’s wrong he’s going to voice it you so that that makes me thinkig back Nate ramazani back when I used to coach
At Lee um JV boys basketball and he was just coming up so he I think he had both games at night but he teed me up and this is this is my boy he teed me up but I deserved it yeah I deserved it and I actually wanted the technical because I
Wanted to spark a spark an interest in our team but I was a lot more fiery back then um I think just having the perspective of look it’s a high school basketball game at the end of the day yes if we can all get to the game we can
All watch the game we can be entertained by the game we can enjoy the competition we can either win the game or lose the game you walk away you you slap FS with the other team shake hands with the other coach yeah appreciate the officials for their time and we keep it
Moving in Ideal World that’s all we want get to the game watch the game make it home if we can if we can do those three things and if everybody kept it in that perspective and again it is very difficult to keep that perspective when you’re in competition yes because it
Does bring the worst out of us sometimes but when you think about it it’s really that simple yes it is it is that simple and you know if if all coaches players and fans took that perspective then I think the game will be much smoother we we
Will retain officials and not not lose as many as as we have I mean this year we gained uh 10 new officials which is which is great which brings our numbers up and and doesn’t make a signing a a nightmare for me um but it’s how they’re
Treated if we’re going to retain them past past next next year how many officials do you guys have in bosel we have 105 okay and then how many games during a League season are you like in one week how many games you have to assign uh anywhere between 40 and 50 50
Games a week um you know with with WC they’re all three persons so you have to you know pick the most experienced officials or some upcoming officials to put on put on those games um which you know you know in in wcl you have two men’s games a week and two women’s games
A weeks um so that’s you know three officials on each game so that kind of diminishes our roster that’s what 14 games yes so right there is 14 games and you’re taking three officials from that’s that’s 21 21 officials if my math is right yeah 14 yeah so um you know it
It’s compared to past years we’re we’re in a much better space right space now than than what we were a few years ago so it it’s it’s it’s retaining those officials and making them love the game um just like myself and Scott and everybody else that’s been involved in
In in refereeing for a long time just retaining those officials and bringing them through the Rings just like just like everybody else yeah and and you know we don’t need to get into what they make but you know it’s not a lot of money I I had Ally and Ryan Cooper over
Here last week and and we’re just hanging out in the backyard and uh watching football um and she’s in official and I said you know what what what’s the rate now for officials three man two man you told me and I like calculated I’m like man if you do if you
Did 30 games like is that you know it’s almost like really all the other stuff that goes in into it I’m like w that might not yeah and that’s why that’s why we don’t do it for the money We Do It For the Love of the Game and and just to
Give back to to the kids right um you know and I I really wish parents would understand that too yeah I’m hoping a lot of parents watch this or listen to this because if we don’t have them we got no we have no game or you got or you
Might have we might get down to one official yeah and they have to do the full game which is extremely difficult to do um yeah so I don’t I mean I don’t have any answers that just people treat everybody a lot better yeah um why you talk talk about because you know you’re
You’re very similar in the fact that you want to create uh great relationships and you do that with your staff members I know you have everybody all your officials over um yearly annually I know you play golf with a lot of your officials or work out talk about you
Know those relationships that you guys that you guys have um I think I think officiating is is a Brotherhood um whether you doing high school or or or college and you know I’m just the person that wants to bring everybody together so annually every year um uh Labor Day weekend that’s in
September right yep yeah Labor Day weekend I have a huge barbecue for um the officials uh college and and high school um I wouldn’t say all of the officials um pretty much our our Core group of officials um we have a barbecue for I I invited coaches uh you’re on the
List next year by the way I’d love to come um Kevin Mack was on on the list even though he hasn’t came yet Ryan Cooper who who he’s been there yeah who I respect deeply and and and a real good friend and his wife Ally um so I just
It’s kind of like a camaraderie thing before the season starts because when we’re when we’re in the season Once once November and December Jan nobody has time to to meet up and just kind of talk so that’s our time before the season start to talk about things and and
Perspective and just have a good time um you know um that’s that’s me giving back to the association and just our Core group of officials that work very hard tifully helping me and Scott out training and doing things and you know they work if I have to put them on a
Triple they’ll do it and you know it’s it’s just my my little give back just come hey come eat don’t have to worry about anything come and talk have a good time with people that you probably haven’t seen or you know about to see during the season so that’s my way way
Of giving back no I think that’s I think that’s great and uh coaches are the same way you know it’s a fraternity a brother s Sisterhood that we uh that we all have and um we all hang out as coaches and we talk about you know officials as well we
Talk about the game in general yeah and I know you guys do the same thing is there do you guys come to a consensus on coaches you’re like they’re a little too much oh yeah yeah we we we have a dialogue we have a dialogue about about
Coaches um you know and and it’s it’s it’s all in fun it’s not it’s not to jab at them or anything but it’s it’s kind of like man did you have that coach last year it’s like man I wanted to te him up so bad you know but but I didn’t you
Know so we we have we have stories about about coaches and and and we talk about plays that you know that we’ve had during the year and and kind of you know uh share stories on on that front too so it’s a good time I had uh not going to
Say his name on here but he was like yeah um when you guys when I came to speak for the uh uh for Paul Paul’s event um one of the one of the refs comes up to me he’s like yeah one of the clips that you sent in to Mark uh I was
On I was like oh my goodness because because I like I like them but um yeah it was it was just it was just funny because I was going to speak about it and then you know he’s like yeah one of the clips you sent him got got posted on
What not to do so thanks for that well yeah I mean because you know that that’s how me and Scott evaluate officials I mean we we tell coaches hey if you have a problem with official or or what they did or what they didn’t do send us a
Clip so we can look at it and it it’s a teaching point and if if more officials got into looking at film um I think the whole officiating in in high school basketball will will would improve but you know when you don’t have officials that don’t want to look at film or ask
Coach hey can I get a clip of that game so I can kind of see what what what it is um then you know they’re just going to keep making the same mistakes and we want we want all our officials to improve year year-over-year because tell
You the truth I’m I’m on my last years of officiating Scott’s pretty much on his last year and officiating so these newer officials we have have to train them up so they can do your your games and high level Aames and do playoff games CCS playoffs and norals and you
Know because CCS demands that we put the best officials on on those games and if we only have a select a few officials then you’re gonna see the mark grayes You’re Gonna See the Scott Calvin you’re gonna see the Ryan skates and Nate ramies and on those games
Because we are the leite of that group along with uh more officials that that you know on the leite side but they don’t want to see us every year on a CCS championship game so these new officials have to step up and and and kind of take
That take that realm on because we’re not going to be here for forever right and yeah and that’s like as you get older as a coach too it’s the same thing where it’s like you need to you need to um get the next group ready get the next
Group ready to to that’ll be the circle of the game it’ll continue to rise up and and grow so I think that’s extremely important what can those officials do to like get up the ranks more um I mean go go to camps um I’ve been going to camps
For I still go to camps after doing it for 18 18 plus years because I never want to be stagnant in in in in my craft so I always go go to camps these new officials they need to go to they need to go to Paul’s camp they need there’s
Many camps around here that are not actually hiring camps but training camps they can go to Paul’s Camp is an excellent Camp to go to because you have all your local assigners there and they can they can evaluate you to see where you go through the year but there’s
There’s many different teaching camps that these officials can go to to get better all right during the summer most of my stuff most of my summer stuff is is three person in in highlevel uh summer leagues Mountain View has a great summer league program that has high
Competition so I’ll put them on some of those game with a veteran official so they can get the get get the experience um but if you don’t do nothing you can’t expect results right so yeah yeah if you don’t put the work in like if you if you
Don’t work out you’re obviously not gonna be in shape yes or if you don’t put the work in uh as a coach your your team isn’t going to be very good and same thing with officiating yes and if you can have a work ethic in one thing
You can also have a work ethic and something else and so I think that is very important for uh for all these young officials and we need you you know just as coaches um you know I think the best thing is to have the dialogue and conversations with us we are you got
Just like you guys are human you guys got your uniform on during the game you take it off you’re a human being and same thing as coaches even if we get all up in arms with certain things uh because we do put a lot into it and we
Want to try to make sure that it’s even at the end of the day man just shake hands with each other and keep it moving um as we kind of wind down here what’s the what’s the major difference between high school and college uh College I think
You you have to be more more engaged I mean the players are bigger they’re faster they’re they’re they’re moving at an extreme rate very very very athletic um so you know you have to be really into your craft to to do to do college you have to work hard I mean you
Know they they have hiring camps just like you and they have evaluators and you know you get you get hired based off what you do on the court um but I think film study is important in college um rule knowledge is important in in high school and college um because you don’t
Want to adjudicate a rule that’s wrong because it may cost a team a game and and you know you get spend it at that level um you know I think the the college game is is is more mental um just because there’s so many different variations to the rule from college to
High school um so you know and just just being in shape that those those guys get up and down and and if you’re not you’re not in shape you you can’t keep up right and so I think the rule thing is is important we’re playing a team the other
Day and uh you know it’s a a two possession game with under a minute to play and so I go to the official because they had been stopping the clock after made baskets and you and I both know that that is illegal in the high school
Game now in the NBA they stop it as soon as the ball goes in and college I believe they do the same thing if it’s under a minute under a minute um but I seen that in the previous game because it was a tournament and I said and I
Told the official and he didn’t recognize it I said you know just so you know they’ve been stopping the clock you know after a made basket um like under under a minute and other coach assistant coaches going up and arm the clock is running the clock is running and I and I
Just kind of like win to my assistant I was like that’s the reason why I said it to them because I knew that that was going to happen in case they made a basket because they didn’t have no timeouts left and if that ball goes in
Even if there’s 10 seconds I just told my kids that Meander on over and get get the ball you don’t have to even throw it in if it’s under 5 seconds so um so yeah I think knowing the rules I think is very important yeah um in colleges just
A different level and you got to be like those coaches are actually getting paid to win those games that’s a different that’s a whole different thing yeah I’m gonna I’m gonna use a quote that Scott Calvin always uses knowledge of the rules ex exudes confidence on the court
If you know the rules then your confidence level on the court court is going to be exceptional if you don’t know the rules then your your confidence is is not going to be as good on the court right I agree and let me ask you a
Question yeah um so the new five fou rule how do how do how does Co how do coaches adjust to that and do they like the new rule I think I mean we’re only three three games in so we’re trying to figure that out as coaches I think
There’s different ways that you can um utilize it to your benefit I think knowing the out of bounds points those are you know there’s only four spots now there’s going to be a foul call I think that’s important too so Baseline and sideline out of bounds opportunities
Like we’re not trying to give up a bucket on the Baseline out of bounds yes because there’s so many more times that the ball is going to be there at those spots yeah um but yeah the five fouls I think it I think it makes sense um
Unless you get in the bonus early on but I like the fact that it resets so it’s not killing you the whole the whole half yes yes you know if you get banged on in the first quarter well you the likelihood of you getting into the bonus
Again is probably unlikely so um yeah I like the role I think it mirrors what the what the college game is um in high school or excuse me in the pros there’s just so many different rules for all these you know for all these organizations yeah the the rules for the
Men’s and women’s college are different they got four quarters the men the men still have two periods yeah like that doesn’t really make sense to me I don’t understand but I’m probably sure it’s because of the ad Revenue that they can get on the under 16 the under under 12
12 eight and four yeah like so they’re getting more timeouts than than the girl side so I can probably see why that happens because if you follow the money that’s usually where everything leads yeah um but to answer your question I think it’s up for interpretation but I
Don’t I don’t dislike it I actually like it I think some of the games are going longer now yeah like I think our boys because they’re pressing uh and running and jumping yeah they the other team shot 38 free throws oh wow the other night wow 38 like that’s a lot
That is a lot that is a style of play and there was 100 possessions in that game that they got offensively they got they got a 100 yeah so that was a 200 possession type of game wow um and I think it was TW man because it’s the
Preseason yeah so uh yeah so I don’t know I mean we’ll we’ll kind of figure that out as as as we go along here but I don’t dislike it what do you what do you think um I I think it in some cases it speeded up the game in some cases it
Slowed up the game I mean like if you have a team that fils a lot then yeah it’s gonna it’s going to slow the game up but I think teams are are adjusting to the fact because you know now now when I’m on the court I hear hey we got
Four fouls we have to stop fouling so much or or three fouls and two more we’re in the bonus um so I think I think it has its advantages and disadvantages but you know like time time will tell overall of how how that rule was implemented and and if if it works I
Think we’ve only been in the bonus one time this year too but you know that’s a point of emphasis that we’re trying not to foul yeah can we play defense without fouling and um you know the marginal contact like you said is is one thing but we don’t want to have illegal
Contact you know especially like on on drives to the basket we’re teaching legal guarding position which is you know basically tin toes and shoulders in front yes if we can get to that we can’t be on the side because now we’re leaving it o Open yeah to somebody you know their
Interpretation being illegal contact or marginal contact but if we got shoulders in front and uh 10 toes in front well there’s you know we should probably get the benefit of the doubt yeah um if the offense is the one creating the contact and then the big one I think is when you
Know everybody is is now trying to teach you know um verticality and keep your hands straight up however if the offense goes into you and your hands go down well normally that’s going to be a foul on offense or excuse me defense yes because we came down and we lost the
Verticality of that so what we’re trying to tell and you know coaches they listen to this but we say elbows behind ears if we can keep our elbows behind ears and they hit you and you stay there well it’s probably going to be marginal yeah or incidental contact and it’s not going
To be considered a foul so yeah I think that’s the way we look at it um at least our staff does um and I know a lot of other great coaches are are dissecting it the way that we’re doing yeah there may be other opportunity like um
You know some so you guys started catching on people were fouling with their body instead of their hands so now we’re trying to go away from that sort of stuff yeah and and and we teach our officials if you referee the defense the defense is going to tell you if it’s a
Foul or not the offense player is not going to tell you if it’s a Fout if if we’re reing the ball and the offensive player we are our our our call accuracy is going to diminish if we referee the defense then our call accuracy is going to is going to rise because the
Defense is going to the defense doesn’t know where the offense is going the defense is trying to react to where the offense is going so if you ref the defensive player you know if it’s a foul or not yeah you know if if in in in your
In your instance if the offensive player initiating the contact and the defender is straight up and the contact causes his arm to calm down why are we penalizing the defense I agree I agree with that you know so you know that’s that’s that’s what we T trying and teach
But you know some some of the upcoming officials they react to contact and we have to get them away from reacting to contact ref the defense and the defense GNA tell you if if it’s if it’s a foul or not yeah and I think the same thing
For coaches like when our team is on defense I don’t watch the offense because I watch our defense because if we’re in the right spots based on where the ball is and you can obviously use peripheral vision to see but I can see that our our post player is not in the
Midline when the the ball is over here or if somebody’s going to try to cross their face or something like that so I think when you look at the game a different way most people that are Layman’s would like to just see where the ball is at but like you mentioned
You know it’s it’s watch the defense you know and you can watch the defense when they’re guarding the ball like as an official but you’re watching where the defensive placement because they’re going to tell the whole story so that that’s a very good point that uh that a
Lot of people don’t don’t know yes um anything else that you want to tell the listeners uh anything on your mind no I mean um you know basketball is a very enclosed sport where everybody’s close and you know we we hear everything good bad or indifferent and you know I just
Wish that fans um would just think about sports ship in in the game um you know and I think the game it’ll make the game go much smoother we’ll retain our officials in in this area because you have two other three other um associations that we all pick out of the
Same officials poort we have svsa in the peninsula we have PSI in the South and we have Arc um who does the East Side East Side School so we’re all picking from the same officials pool um I think basso has done a good job in in in retaining our
Officials to to the schools that we provide um for a long period of time because they they understand the history and they understand that you know most Co all the coaches in our school pretty much respect our officials and know that we’re going to do a good job in the
Training that Scott does and and and with the help of me and and and the other official so we we we’ve been able to retain our officials where most most the other associations have lost their officials so we don’t want to lose officials because fans think that they’re entitled
To just say anything to to our officials for sure be respective uh respect the game respect each other and respect us as officials and and I think it’ll be is there is there a way that all those organizations can come under one umbrella no it won’t
It because you know you have Rick Rick Moore who’s our owner for basso and then you have Mike Adams in in SOA and then you have Ortega in Arc and and PSI there there’ll be no way that we’ll conform an a CO Consortium um we just do it all
Independently and separately is there a benefit to to coming together I I don’t think I don’t think it’ll be a benefit to come together just because the Dynamics of of the area um and and the contracts the school have with with certain associations um all all of our schools
Are under contract for a year they they’re they’re able to um go to somebody else and after a year if they if they choose to but all our schools know that you know we’re we’re a very good Association and we take care of our our our officials
So they don’t go out to to other schools or other associations to to officiate their games um and I I think that that’s the way it will be for for is there like competitive bidding for how much they’re going to charge uh for a game well the
CCS sets the uh sets the pay standard um so it’s it’s really no competitive it’s all about the the quality of officials got it um what quality officials are are they going to get on on their games and and through the history basso PSI has always supplied a a a great amount of
Qualified officials that that will do the game um you know yeah to the best of their ability good uh I got one final question for you if there’s somebody that should be on the beyond the bucket show who would it be or who should it be
But you have to make the connection if I don’t know them um I would say I would say Scott Calvin oh I was going to say he should be on yes he should because he Scott Scott has been a pillar he started with firmar then PSI then basso um Scott
Had Scott is a pillar in in in in basketball um and he has a lot of knowledge you you talk about a guy that knows the rules like the back of his hand that’s one guy that that knows and give you can can give you a unique perspective on on officiating and in
Evaluation of of of uh officials 100% so that is it for Mark gray today thank you for uh stopping in and and chatting I know we got a big Niner game coming up here so we’re about to to get to that but uh yeah that’s beyond the bucket
Show here is the outro thank you for listening to the beyond the buckets podcast please remember to subscribe rate and share the show with your friends and until next time take care hey hey hey
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