A retired homicide detective I’ve interviewed thousands of people from serial killers to ministers welcome to the interview Room Going Good evening everybody on this wonderful Sunday evening and welcome to the interview room podcast we are so grateful each and every one of you are here we want to thank all of our subs and our patreon members and of course our modifiers our mods who keep this channel classy Miss Sophia uh Miss
Teresa M maoli girl and Mimi J2 without you uh none of this could be happening uh because you keep our chat classy and you keep people above the line as you can tell we have an amazing panel tonight I mean you cannot get a bigger All-Star panel than this if you ask me
Dr am Burgess and uh she’s a legend everybody knows her uh Dr Gary brato Dr Katherine ramsland and of course from the Cold Case Foundation uh Greg Cooper the executive director and Dean the assistant executive director and for the sake of time tonight I’m going to just
Point everybody to their bios and their books over my right hand over my right shoulder here and of course our special guest tonight uh is Miss uh Katherine kleene Ruben I just want to make sure I I I pronounced your name correctly Katherine and go ahead it’s Kleiner kle eer yes
You see and that’s why I mentioned it I’m so sorry for that that’s uh but I appreciate you correcting me so this young lady is the author of a new book coming out it just came out we’re going to tell you guys tonight you’re gonna
Want to read this book I mean you need to get over there like I talk about Dr ramin’s book Dr you know bado’s book Dr Burgesses everybody on this panel has a book let me tell you that okay and every one of these books is a fascinating read
But this is going to be the very first book by a confirmed Survivor of Ted Bundy and it is a memoir to challenge the popular notion of Ben of Bundy as a handsome killer who Charmed his victims into trusting him uh Catherine has or Kathy has a story and it’s gripping I’ve
I have had a chance to go through it the link to Kathy’s book is also going to be below so what we need to do is make her a best a New York Times bestseller almost instantly so everybody on this program tonight who’s watching this
Please get over there and get to uh get reading it she’s also a motivational speaker who specializes in surviving impact or Survivor impact and since 2018 she has sto shared her story with audience audiences around the world she’s been interviewed by both just about every major uh news media outlet
And of course she lives currently right now uh around her grandchildren you’ve got to love that uh in South Florida with her sweet husband and her and you guys have a dog what’s your dog’s name your dog it’s G she’s a three pound
Yorkie I love it I love it uh so let me start this off tonight guys by reading the jacket of Kathy’s book and this will give you a little sense of where we’re going to go here this evening in January 1978 I slept in my bed at Kai Omega sard
Home house at Florida State University as Ted Bundy stalk nearby he grabbed an oak log from a stack of firewood slipped through a back door with a broken padlock and headed upstairs he began twisting door knobs room nine was open and he quickly and quietly killed one of
My sleeping sari sisters across the hall he found another unlocked door and he murdered again then he turned the knob to my bedroom and found it was open I remember this attack vividly Bundy was bashing me once in the head with a log and then ATT my
Roommate he heard me moaning and came to finish me off he never let his victims live but he stopped suddenly when a bright light filled the room and that moment he fled the sority house and in the light and then the light disappeared Bundy was my first brushed
With death and he wasn’t my last I’ve long been a Survivor and tonight we’re going to talk about this wonderful human being’s life Miss Katherine Kleiner rubben and we are GNA learn so much I know we will so Katherine thank you so very much for being here first of all thank you you
Are a light there is no question about that and I know you’re going to change the the temperature of this room uh this evening so Kathy let me ask you the the the first question tonight that’s been on my mind can you take us back to that
Evening in 1978 in the sorority house when your life was changed can you share that with us yes on January 14th it was a Saturday I had I woke up with a terrible hangover from going out partying but that Saturday I went to a wedding and was okay enough to drink
More at the wedding then I decided to go home after that after having dinner to study for a calculus test so I I went into home got changed put on my yellow FL flannel night gown and laid up in the room studying for calculus around 11:30
At night my roommate and I decided to go to bed so we turned off our lights and both of us went to fall asleep our bedroom was on the second floor of the sorority house we faced the back of the house which is right over the parking
Lot our room was normal size of a dorm and we had curtains a bank of Windows on the back of the wall and our curtains were always open because we had plants hanging off the rods so our room was always bright and Airy during the day
And at night tend to get really dark so on January 14th around midnight going to bed and I heard something sometime in the morning and it turned out to be around 3:00 in the morning and I was sound asleep and I wasn’t sure what it was but it was a door opening and
Washing around the uh carpet so I heard the swish sound woke me up a little bit the next thing I hear is this Ruckus or this tripping and stumbling on what was a um small Foot Locker that we had between our twin beds so it so dark he
Tripped over that now I’m awake and I’m looking and all I can see is a silhouette an outline of a person standing next to me and I’m trying to squint and look and all I could see was him as he raised his arm up over his
Head and in his hand he had something which I didn’t know what it was then but what it was was a log a piece of that firewood that he came in when he stole into the house that night that was the same log that he had killed Margaret
Bowman with whom he attacked first he went in her room he strangled her and beat her and then put the coverage right up to her chin so it looked like she was sleeping when he went to that next room was Lisa Levy he attacked her he raped
Her he beat her with the club and he bit her on her buttcks and that way that was like a fingerprint so that when they did catch the person who did this they’d be able to identify him immediately by that bite mark so he’s next to my bed with
His hand raised up over his head and he brought it down on my face so hard that it tore my cheek open I broke my jaw into the two places and it shattered my chin and I almost bit my tongue off it was just hanging on when I
Did this I started making noise my roommates started making noise so now this person tripped over that little trunk again to make his way over to the other bed he attacked her with the same log that he used to attack me and my two other sorority sisters when he came back
Because he heard I was alive and Bundy did not leave anyone alive he killed all his victims when he came over again I was in bed and I made myself so small and so little and clenched my eyes and in my head if he couldn’t see me he
Couldn’t hit me so that was my way of of responding to the first attack again he’s in the room it’s black out he raises his arm to hit me again and then all of a sudden the light Shone into to the bedroom it was really a bright light
And what it was was a car was bringing home a soror sister from a date and it was late at night and our windows were open our Shades were wide open and that light bright and shiny in our room and I opened my eyes and I could see him
Standing next to me but he’s like fidgety he got spooked and he ran out our door ran out of the sorority house and then the light got dark again and it was all pitch black in my room and I’m still in this little bitty ball waiting for him to come
Back wow you know that that’s a lot to take in even just from the first you know 11 minutes I’m I’m so proud that you’re here to tell this story for to empower uh so many women around the world I can I can hear it coming and
Feel it coming uh so what I want to do is kind of open up with uh Dr Ramson and Dr Burgess and then Dr uh if you folks have any comments or thoughts based on what we’ve just heard and I know you and Dr ramsland have
Known each other for quite some time so this is this is a good reunion as well so Dr ramsy we’ll start with you and then Dr Burgess if that’s okay we’ll we’ll go around the circle well um you sorry mute do I am I muted I’m muted okay unmuted got it
Um what what happened right after that who came into your room who was able to call for resources how did you get out because this is a pretty life-threatening um damage that you have tell us because there are some more dramatic moments coming so tell us about
Some of those actually I had passed out when I was waiting for the light to come back which it wasn’t going to but my roommate was awake and she stumbled out of our door into the second floor hallway and as she’s doing that one of the soror sisters saw her and walked her
Back into our bedroom they turned on the light and they now saw me as I’m huddled in a ball full of blood blood on the walls blood on my face it was all sticky and she looked at me and they called 911 the next thing I remember are the
Police officers they came into my room and they were standing next to me and I remember opening open my eyes and seeing it was a police officer and I felt so safe I knew that whomever had done this to me was not going to come back with
The police officer there so Karen then went back to her bed as they were attending to her and the paramedics came into the room to help take care of me and they then T carried me down the stairwell and the Beautiful wooden staircase and took me out to the front door
Wow uh Dr Burg’s thoughts yes um I’m interested in how much you remember and how the memory comes back because one of the things that when victims are talking people will say well your story keeps changing a little bit and so forth and and I think yours certainly would be
Very instructive for you did say that you think you passed out before he comes back uh can you help with that the memory piece of of it yes um I know when he hit me and um I think I was just more knocked out than went you know um passed out it wasn’t
Long though I could hear him attacking Karen my roommate so then when he came back to me it was like I have a memory of this I have a vivid memory I was put under hypnosis when I was in the hospital when they took first took me to
Tallahassee Memorial the the police were asking me questions and my mouth was all wired shut and I had big bandage around my face and they wanted to me to help them find this person who did this did you know them what was his name and I I didn’t know anything I couldn’t remember
Anything and I was put under hypnosis and everything I say now is what happened because I remember being under hypnosis and saying how I heard him walk into the room and trip over the little Co the little um suitcase in our between our beds and I heard all this and I
Remembered when I did pass out I had had no memory of what was happening the next few minutes so that’s how I knew that I had passed out but my memory is is very clear um I’ve talked about my story a lot and it helps to heal me so every
Time I tell my story I actually put myself right there while it’s happening so I can exactly tell you how it was how did they find out who did it you had started to say that yes um he was actually uh gentleman had killed after he killed us he went down this person
Down to Lake City Florida and killed little Kimberly leech and he also bit her so they had that as as a fingerprint he was in tal in Pensacola and he was leaving the state in a car that was stolen so he was stopped on a traffic violation the police stopped him and he
Had so many IDs in him his wallet that from students he went to Tallahassee after after he left Colorado he went to Tallahassee because he thought he could be a pass as a student at FSU so that’s the reason he went there he stole a lot
Of IDs and um cards credit cards so when he was leaving Pensacola and they stopped him they didn’t know who he was because he had so many IDs and back then in 78 they didn’t really have uh fingerprints on file and the computers like they have now so it was pure um
Detective work to say that you know we have a victim that was bit and little Kimberly was bit let’s see if this person has anything to do with both cases very good okay did uh the next Dean did you have a uh uh Dr B uh Bato
And then Greg and then we’ll go to Dean yep okay um first of all thank you so much for being on I mean this is an ex extraordinary extraordinary experience for all of us to speak with you and what you’ve been through is unfathomable um now one of the things I
Found myself wondering about is I I know that um when you were attacked the responders um thought that you might have been shot at Point Blank Range because of the injuries that you had sustained and you were unable to speak uh because of the tongue and the jaw and
All that so one of the things I’ve wondered about is how did you rehabilitate that ability you speak so clearly and so obvious that you have overcome that I was curious what happened with that how you were able to overcome that horrendous injury and the other thing I was hoping you could shed
Some light on that I’ve always wondered about is did you guys do do you feel that that SAR house was targeted by Bundy or did it just feel like he found some vulnerability in that building you know thought that you know there were young women in there and they would make
You know and sort of impulsively did it because there is something about that Kai Omega attack and I think the Kimberly leech attack that suggests a kind of a deterioration where he was getting more and more wild and disorganized and you know and primitive in in the way he was attacking people I
Mean the log and the biting and Etc and I’m just curious what your thoughts are but I but I really really would appreciate hearing a a little bit about how you overcame that those terrible injuries in terms of speech and all that it took a while um I was wired shut for
Nine weeks my jaw actually was when it was broken at Tallahassee they wired it shut but then when I went down to Miami to be uh recuperate my parents took me to a dentist and it turned out that my jaw would have been set and my teeth
Would have been crooked it was the jaw would not have been set straight so they had to rebre my jaw after three weeks of it healing and they wired it shut again so it was a total of nine weeks that I was wired shut and I could only eat what
I could drink through a straw after the attack my teeth were shifted and loose after the uh the first attack and I was able to drink liquids for nine weeks but I wanted to talk and I would talk as much as I could with my teeth clinched they didn’t stop me from
Talking it was just harder to understand me and as I was getting better and knew that I was going to be able to keep going one of the things that I did have a problem with was when I was attacked I had this terrible black feeling around
Me just like a black shoulder black cape around me and I was always scared because I didn’t know what that Cape was or was it GNA keep with me all my life and I knew I didn’t want to live like that I wanted to get better I wanted to
Leave the house and I wanted to live again when my jaw was wired shut and I couldn’t talk to anybody it was so hard to communicate but I had this black thing around me and I in the distance in the far distance I visualized a little
Island and it had one palm tree and one little beach chair sitting on that island and it was so far ahead of me but I took baby steps that was me going to be I was going to heal myself and I took baby steps and as I looked behind me
That black mass with baby steps behind me and I walked and I don’t know how long it took maybe a month a little baby steps to actually Vis visualize this and know this is what I wanted not just from the uh things going around the house
That I didn’t think about daily but it helped me and I walked and I walked and when I got to that little island I put my feet in the sand and I sat on that chair and I looked in front of me and there was no mask there was no black
I didn’t have to be afraid of Anything as far as um him getting away with it um it’s just unfortunate that he got to this point after being um taken out of uh prison when he got um when he escaped from Colorado and him coming down to Tallahassee was just on a lark
On his part but um it it it happened in my life it’s like why would this be happening you know I I had no reason to know it and I called my sorority sisters because I had been flown home to Miami and my sority sisters were all still in Tallahassee and they actually
Traumatized themselves this whole thing tragically touched everyone’s life and as I called to get for someone to talk to me I I wanted to be told I didn’t do anything wrong and that I didn’t wasn’t thrown out of the house and that’s why I had to leave I needed reassurance and it
Was difficult um no one contacted me but then when I think about it for the girls the sori house they were traumatized they’re both in their 20s and 21 and they were just having fun at school as I was before the attack I was enjoying classes and going to football games and
Their lives had to continue so I’m sure that they continued with their life moving forward and trying to put Kyo and the attack by T Bundy behind them so at that point I was not someone that they really wanted to talk to and I kind of got left in the dark on that
Oh interesting Greg what are your thoughts any thoughts you know a couple things I’m really curious Katherine uh also on you mentioned that you were preparing for this calculus test and that you were on a hangover and consumed alcohol now how did that help prepare you for that calculus to everybody wants
To know that well I didn’t get to take the test so I’m sure I got an A if I had taken it um just a couple questions for you um as you just mentioned often times after somebody has experienced being victimized they they often go through this process of of asking the question
Why why me why why my my roommate um why did I survive why did others not survive and and one of the questions we often try to ask those who have gone such hor through such a horrendous experiences is um to ask is there anything after all
These years that you’ve had a chance to review this over and over and over in your mind and um is there anything that you could have imagined that night that any one of the victims including yourself may have been able to do to prevent such a thing from happening whether it be physical
Security Etc and then the the other thing is um what do you believe would be say the top three things top three keys to your survival after such a horrible event and throughout your life um to start back let’s go to the beginning on that one as far as why me
And feeling that way when I was 13 I was diagnosed with a systemic lupus arithm matosis which is a form of Lupus that attacks your organs when I was 13 I was in sixth grade I took experimental chemo and I lost all my hair I was homebound
For the year and I could look out the window and I could see the kids play no one could come in and I couldn’t leave my parents worked all day so I was at at my house watching TV either cartoons or soap offers at that point and Mom would
Call and ask how I’m doing and you know everything’s fine but I would get so lonely sometimes I would pick up the phone and Di zero just to speak with the operator sometimes she would talk and sometimes they were busy so I didn’t want to live my life and that little
House with no hair for the rest of my life I didn’t understand and comprehend how things change along the way and I didn’t want to be like this forever I was just like waiting to get better and waiting to get better my parents were so
Good to me and took care of me and doed over me which I didn’t appreciate that much but you know as parents do um but finally at the end of my seventh grade I got to go out one time Mama let me go out to church and we went and sat in the
Back seat a back of the church and we went and got ice cream afterwards and not a week and a half later I came down with shingles so now I’m at home I have no hair and I have shingles all over my face and my
Neck it takes a while to get over those and it was so painful but I was used to the pain if that makes any any sense I was you know this was my my burden to bear and I was just going to get through
It like any child thinks I can I can do this and I could and I did and I got better and over the summer of my seventh grade I became well enough that I could interact with people again and so I went back to school and I started living my
Life again not as a little sick kid but as someone else and whomever else I wanted to be I joined theater in high school in the drama department and I made a bunch of friends I actually I met my husband now I met him in high school
But it was a great time and I Associated people I hadn’t done so in a while and I could act and be anyone I wanted to be except that sick little kid that was homebound in seventh grade so when it was time now to go to college I chose to go to
FSU because in my thoughts and in my um friends going there and everything I figured out that FSU was as far away from Miami as my parents lived that I could get and still get in state tuition so that was my big I have to go to FSU
Now that was my big big feeling but having come through and gone over um that lupus I was strong I knew I was strong I was I was you see something you want it you go get it after the attack I felt I was strong but weakened I I had
Done a big major thing to go through and I had but now I got attacked and that really wore me down and again I wasn’t going to stay like that I wasn’t going to hide in a box in a room I wanted to see what was on the other side of next
Obstacle because it had to be better than what I’d just gone through so at that point I’m feeling better because I know I can get better I know I can do this and as far as security goes um in our room if we had our door locked that
Night it would have made a big difference and if Margaret and Lisa had their doors locked he probably would have walked down the Hall to the person who didn’t have their door locked but by able to attacking them and then attacking me and my roommate and that
Light shown up in the in the house in our bedroom and him running out that was the security I needed because I knew he left and it’s funny because during the um all the police work I’ve talked to several um districts and everything with Cold Case and detectives and they always
Said we never never thought of a light coming in your room would have made him leave we never go around that way we always look for the obvious reasons why would he have left what did he do what did she do and it turned out to be the
Light that Shone in in the in the room so I found that interesting too that you know investigators need to detectives need to look around you know don’t go right for the um the first thing they think but to look at the other obstacles well thank you that for your
Candid response there I did you mention that the light did you mention what the source of that light was it was a car that was in the in the um driveway bringing home a date that was returning late from a from a um date well my uh my son has had similar
Experience with respect to the shingles at 12 years old he he got shingles and it attacked his eye and trial he ended up a trial neuralgia from it oh so um understanding the the level of pain that one goes through particularly as a child
It it can be severe uh but so you were drawing on your own personal experiences as a child that you believe to get you get through this thing abundant I did because I knew I wasn’t going to stay down I was they weren’t going to keep me down long and the process of
Recuperation and everything I had to go through Bundy that was just something I had to do that’s something I would do I would get better so you’re uh your personal confidence in yourself as well and your belief system I do I had a lot of love a lot of God
And a lot of family and with all everything going on I got better thank you Kath appreciate it danan Katherine well what a what an amazing story and uh what an opportunity to speak with you tonight uh your your strength and your tenacity is just uh mindboggling I I’ve had the opportunity
To work with so many victims and victims families over the years and uh very remarkable and uh what an honor to speak with you tonight I I had a thought as you were talking you mentioned your mom and your dad and uh you know I could almost imagine you at home Mom calling
You from from work and saying how are you feeling today and doing all that can you talk a little bit because I I think people forget that it’s not just the initial victim but it’s Rippling effect of from the victim to the extended family to the extended family can you
Comment on kind of how that struck your parents and then how they’ve coped with that um it struck them hard I was their little baby and I was the youngest of three and mom and dad always wanted to take care of me but I noticed when they
Called and I wasn’t feeling good I would sit up in the bed and just get right you know wide awake and say oh everything’s fine just watching TV and they’re like okay if you’re sure and then I’d lay down back in bed and hurt and just
Wallow a bit then when it was time for them to come home from work I’d get up i’ put on my shorts and my flipflops and I’d sit in front of the TV watching television so then they walked in I’m like oh hi how you doing and they had no
Idea what kind of day I actually had but I wanted them to feel good I think I wanted to get better for me but I also knew I wanted them to feel good and by being sick and not you know telling them I was sick they knew it but I didn’t
Want them to be feeling bad for me they were going through enough enough of their problems to take care of me so when this happened you couldn’t hide any of that right I mean this was out there for the world so how did they deal with that they um they were very protective
When I went to anywhere outside um with with lus Mom one of the things you’re um you have Lupus you have a chance you shouldn’t have children and you shouldn’t go out in the sun and I Remember Mama used to follow me with an umbrella and I’d be walking with
Friends in the eth grade and she’d be right behind me with an umbrella over my head so I didn’t get any sun so this was her thoughts on how to take care of me what can I do now I’ll do anything so um they doed a lot and I didn’t need that I
Took it because that’s what everyone wants to help everyone wants to do something and when I can’t say I want you to do this they’re like I don’t know what to do for so you give them a job give them something that you want you
Know you can do it but you just tell them you need help with it and it makes them feel better like they’re actually doing something to help me how long was it till they were notified after the the attack by Bundy the night of the attack I I’ve I don’t have firsthand experience
On this so I’m dealing with what my mama told me they called them like it um 4 or 5 in the morning they were in Miami and this attack was uh in Tallahassee so it was eastern time and they called because of all the confusion of what was going
On and they didn’t know exactly who was attacked and they didn’t know all the particulars the police weren’t sure they finally got a hold of her and gave her the phone call that no one mother wants to hear her father and that I had been attacked I was seriously injured and I
Was in Tallahasse Memorial in intensive care and I don’t know how long it took for them to come to me it seems like it was forever but I’m sure it was a day or so and they got a flight and came to me
And I was in a a room by myself in the hospital they didn’t know who had done this at that point and there was a guard standing at my door so I would look around I was alone in my room and I’d see the police officer standing there
And I’m like I’m GNA be okay there’s a police officer there so I’ve had nothing but wonderful experiences with the police police that were around me and who tended to me and um actually back in in in South Florida when I first went home to to Miami to recuperate someone
Had posted my name and my address in the Miami Herold one of the reporters who was trying to contact me so now I’m listed in the newspaper and all the people in our neighborhood are coming by and people are just driving around the neighborhood because no one knew what
Happened you know local girl attacked in you know in Tallahassee so they actually sent police officers to uh be in front of the house and they had one that was stationed right at the front door because again they knew they no one knew what had happened or who was who was at
Fault and they wanted to keep me safe but I think if my name and address wasn’t in the newspaper I would have probably felt better but um you know this is the way it happened that’s what happened and again the police officers were there for
Me you know uh what I’m hearing so far uh Kathy is just absolutely uh amazing uh you’re I I have three concepts that have come to my mind and and I want to ask you a couple of questions from the investigation’s perspective the first concept is I think you’re a powerful U
Um inspiration towards visual visualizing the healing process uh first of all I think that’s very important for people to understand uh you know and then the second one I think you’re you you have the power of grit and you know you there’s an old saying stick to it till it sticks to you
Okay very good I I love that one because that’s kind of what you’re projecting here and then of course the S the third one for me is what I’m getting out of this is you have a vision of hope uh and you’ve been able to carry that through um show
What I what I would like to ask with those three principles in mind when you were back in that room that night in 78 and your you know repressed memories came back to you through the hypnosis process um could you hear anything what was going on with him in terms of was he
Saying anything uh was he you know did you have any idea what he may have been doing to your to the roommates I mean ultimately you learned you know the the horrific crime that he committed so that’s the first question and then the second uh concept behind that what was
That like when you had to see him in the court proceedings as they went on how did you process that em Mo emotionally physically and and probably spiritually uh as you were going through this let me answer that one first um right after the attack he was um he when he through went
Through Pensacola he was arrested and was putting the police were putting together the uh The credibility of him being the same as who Kimberly leech and he came they fig figured that it was him so that he uh excuse me some of this is talking good I’m sorry just get caught
Up in the moment in what I’m feeling but um I I feel that if he had a sense of what I knew now that he would have been afraid of me but during hypnosis I did hear the noises I heard him trip over that little Foot Locker between our beds
I did hear the door open up and scrape against the carpet I did see him vividly when I was hypnotized standing next to my bed and raising his arm up I saw that under hypnosis that’s why I know it to be true and I talk about it and over
Time I think I get more of a clear image or a vision on what exactly happened but it’s it’s what I’ve been saying because it’s what happened and um to me the most important part is that he did get caught and it was only a couple couple weeks
After after the attack when he was taken into custody he of course said he didn’t do it he denied everything this was in 1978 in 1978 in the middle of and the fall of 78 I was asked to go and do subpoena for the deposition and when I went and did that
It was in this big conference room they flew me from Miami up to Tallahassee and they opened the door it was a big conference room with a big long conference table and on one side were the defense lawyers on the other side were the prosecution and they set me at the head
Of the table and I looked down and there was Ted Bundy at the other end and he’s sitting there and he’s looking at me and now I’m just staring at him I don’t remember what the questions were that I was asked from both sides it’s um
There’s a transcript of it but um all I remember was looking at him and thinking you poor thing you’re gonna you know I had no doubt looking at him and getting his a around him that this was him this was him so that was the deposition I saw
The first time the second time I saw him was during the grand jury and I was subpoena to go to the grandury at that time again he was sitting at a table and this time I remember vividly he had a light blue jacket on and he was sitting
With his chin and his arm in his hands and just sitting at the end of the table and again I wasn’t scared I wasn’t feeling he was going to come get me or anything I just felt honory I just I wanted to get to
Him I I knew I couldn’t but it was just like he killed my sorority sisters and I know he killed other women I just that wasn’t going to sit right with me so the third time I saw him was at the trial and I was subpoena to be a witness and
As I did I was uh sworn in I sat down in the witness box and I looked out over the courtroom and there was a table where the prosecution sat and there was a table where the defense was and right next to that was Ted Bundy he didn’t
Look so smug this time he was like all right you’re wasting my time this just get over this I want to go do something else and it was kind of like now you’re here and I felt good about it I really felt good that he was in a courtroom and
Going to stand up for what he did and the questions that the defense ask me and I remember Vis vividly is they asked me is this the man you saw in the room at that night that was supposed to have tacked you and I wanted so much to say yes that
This was the man I wanted to help convict him for all the other women for me for Margaret for Lisa and I had to say no I don’t know because I never saw his face so to me that was that was hard that was hard I had to
Say no and I walked out of the courtroom and about threw up because I was upset I couldn’t say yes and I was sad sad to see him again it was just a full emotional upheaval of of thoughts and everything but that was the last time I saw
Him interesting Dr an any thoughts that come to you from what we heard I think that is really because I was as I said I was interested in your memory and that was quite profound that at the trial even though you looked at him there was nothing that uh
Reminded you of him his arm or anything you mentioned how the arm he would hold that up yeah yeah it was so dark all I saw was the figure right did you get anything answered at the trial or were you just there to to testify to that amount of I um I I’m
Sorry no I just wondered if you were able to learn anything at the trial of what happened at the trial no there was such a fixation on him and first time that television was allowed into the courtrooms and I think there was such a glamorous to do about him that that’s
When the Mystique started and that’s when the Press said look how gorgeous he is look at this look at that and there were actually women young women at the trial that sat up in the front couple rows and they were just screaming and oooing and aing about him oh look it’s
Him and I tried to understand and why what would they what was this and I think part of it was that they felt like they could be around someone that was bad and ugly and they couldn’t get hurt by it they wanted to be around the bad
Boy but they were safe you know they were in a situation where they were not going to be touched and I think the other reason that some of the women showed up is there was the M mother figure that they could help him that with with them they could go and make it
Better and make him so he wasn’t going to be the angry ugly person so I think those two things had had in my mind over the years thought about it I think that the young people there were um so surprising to me I wasn’t expecting to see
Them so the identification of Bundy was by the bite mark yes at that time yeah yes the uh sheriff in Tallahassee was kin kasaris he had actually B done some um reading and some um testing on dental implants and dental bites so this was already something he knew of and he um
He made sure that the um the stains and the bite marks the Integrity weren’t messed up so that he could show as both bite marks at the same I mean on the same place but with different bodies right because they didn’t have DNA back then no they didn’t yeah so that was the
Bite mark yeah okay did anyone support you there uh were any of your sority sisters there there were some there were some there because they had to testify as well oh okay okay so a lot of the girls had to say you know if they were
Home or they weren’t home and what they remembered so it was a long process of getting through all the uh sority sisters doing during their testimonies yeah I think I had one other question about because the kai Omega house was so much in the news did that in any way
Affect the sorority or um what happened did you because you didn’t I take it you didn’t go back to FSU or you did no I did not I uh my my my life took a different different path but as far as the university I tried a couple times to
Get in charge uh in contact with the authority presidents and since I hadn’t heard back from anyone I wanted an explanation I wanted them to tell me why I was left out and why why they thought I did something wrong and I needed that Sisterhood I felt that um I wanted them
Surround me and hug me and love me and and it didn’t happen they they didn’t for whatever reasons they were living their life and you know I was just home alone in in a little box by myself and I didn’t have them intervening and helping
Me so I figured that was okay I didn’t need them mom says you have me and your dad you know so um that was okay I you know after years I got over it but um I never went to therapy um as far as after the attack or anything it was something
That Mama was Cuban and it’s just you don’t talk about your your things to public people you just kind of deal with them and you know go on this is probably why I have my strength now because that’s what we’ve done all our lives is you know you don’t talk about your
Feelings or you know what’s going on to the people or public you just keep so how long how long was it before you really did talk about it um 2018 2008 wow okay and I only did that because CNN was the first news uh contact me and
They asked me to talk I’m like sure I’ll talk because when I talk I talk to everyone and anyone that I could talk to about you know so then grocery stor so you know what I was attacked by Ted Bundy you know just to start the
Conversation and get it out there more I talk the better I felt so um at this point it’s like I want to talk and I need people to hear me but it wasn’t K Omega sori they want the ones I needed to reach out to or the school I take it their school
Teachers uh faculty I just disappeared what year were you what year in I was a sophomore sophomore okay I was having fun going to frat parties you know being a kid and I had no idea who Ted Bundy who’s that you know I I had no clue what
Was going on the west coast of the United States you know I was just having fun in my bed where I’m supposed to be at 11:30 at night it’s amazing you know that you didn’t have any support from hopefully would not happen today that you support
Okay thank you you’re welcome app it Dr Ramon any thoughts yeah um there was another young woman also attacked down the street that night Cheryl Tom thas have you spoken with her at all no I haven’t we I’ve reached out a couple times to a couple people through letters
And I don’t know why you know I’ve reached out to her but you know everyone goes through trauma different everyone’s going to handle it their way and for them possibly not talking about it and not putting themselves with it that’s their way of handling it I my way has
She’s been in the media too she’s talked yes she has but we have never talked together she’s out she’s doing her thing which is I you know plot her so um you know I’d love to talk to her sometime maybe during all this settling down I
Will contact her all right so since you didn’t have conversation with her let me ask you this I’ve seen on some social media that you’ve talked about the way people are glamorizing Bundy because there’s a whole new generation now of adoring young girls yeah who want to be
Bitten and choked and stabbed by him they you know they put themselves on Tik Tock acting as if they’re his victim or his girlfriend and I know that you’ve made some very public statements and wishing people would stop doing this would you want to speak to that um I
Don’t know what’s what’s wrong with these women I don’t get it as far as I just don’t get it I mean obviously I’m not at that mindset but these women need to get a good life for thems El they need to go do something productive and not put themsel in this type of
Situation it’s not going to do them any any good they’re not going to make this make them well because they have are playing with this and it it might even cause problems because someone could be seeing that that they know that might be having mental discussion in themselves
And not knowing what’s going on what’s true and not so to me that’s dangerous you either going to find someone that and they’ll find you or I just don’t understand it are are you using your your book tour or podcast or whatever as sort of a platform to address some of
This and try to diminish it yes definitely um I talk about my my well my seral being a Serial Survivor um all of this let me just add toward the end of my um third when I was 30 I was diagnosed with breast cancer and I had to go through chemo again and
Go through all the uh healing process and so this was all something that I had to deal with again and it didn’t remind me of the attack so I had to go back and Within Myself and know that these three things I’d been through were totally different but totally the same way I
Handled them I was going to get through this and I want to get through telling people that Bundy was not at all what he says he was he was very manipulative he showed people what he wanted to be he would during the day he’d be you know
Fun and charismatic and he wasn’t he was stupid he couldn’t even make it through school they say he went to law school and he couldn’t he he failed out his first semester he was just a loser he really was during even during when he was a child and he do horrible things
And um to children and of course that’s a big sign today when young kids are um are attacking animals and people but he was just so into himself that he thought he could get away with the evil in him and he could just be you know Charming young guy looking and they’d never
Really see him as what he was do you think you’ve changed anyone’s mind any of these girls Minds I hope so and if I hav’t I’m going to keep trying okay fascina and and Kathy as you go on with your uh podcast or your panel or whatever you’re
Going to do you do realize you have a whole panel of one-on-one guest here now that you could put on your show there and just absolutely Rock the world because you’re messaging so far uh out there since 2018 uh I’m reading the chat comments go by and you are empowering women as you
Go along here okay okay so I just want to make you aware of that right up front that you you know you are making a difference and it’s just fascinating to to listen to you and learn from you Dr pado over to you well as I’ve been listening to this
You know I I realize it becomes something of a meditation on how two people can experience negative life events and it’s sort of the pain pain brings out the person’s underlying character and strengths in one person negative experiences bring out a desire to go out and level the playing field by
Repeatedly killing people and playing out perverse fantasies to get one’s ego back and in another person negative experiences lead to an incredible altruism and spirituality and acceptance and then going out and sort of sh shedding light and um it’s really extraordinary uh when you sort of start
To see it that way that it’s more about a reaction to how what one does with what one is under the worst of circumstances and I I it is amazing to listen to you um one of the things I liked best about your book and I do want
To emphasize to everybody here I mean I I really think You’ need to run out and read it it’s a it’s a terrific book it really is it’s it’s extremely mov moving but it also is something of a page turn like because it’s very very captivating
Right I was really it was it only took about a day and a half to get through the the whole book this is a really very good book and what I really liked was this challenging of the myth of not only Bundy but a certain type of serial
Killer generally in a way because like for example um we talk about these slick Charming Psychopaths you know who could lure somebody but you challenge this very directly and you basically say well how Charming is somebody who hits people who are sleeping or Bops people over the
Back of the head when they have no there is no Charming at all there’s none of that verbal process so I thought that was really interesting and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about some of these other myths uh that seem to surround these Bundy and these Bundy type
Killers there there’s so many um there’s a couple of them that I hear often is that well women went with them willingly you know he lured them but you know because of who he was and one or two were hitchhikers and back in 78 that was just something everyone did so yeah they
Willingly got into his car and um two or three of the others were helping him he had a cast on his arm and he would ask them to help do something and they’d go in his car to help him and that’s when he hit him with a crowbar and it was
Like these things happened because he was physically one toone with them but hundreds of them were asleep in their bed the 30 that we talk about are women that we could actually find out and and um make sure that we were saying their thoughts and their dreams
Correctly each woman had a thought and a dream and a love that they wanted to do and when you open a book now on Ted Bundy you open it up and there might be a paragraph with everyone’s name in it comma everyone’s name comma it’s just a
Paragraph of names and that has hurt me so much and so hard because they all had things they wanted to do and and we bring out their thoughts their process give them a voice they’re just a name isn’t good enough and to say that Bundy put them there in
His own way and he was responsible for it and he didn’t care I remember hearing um one of the when we were doing all the research my research uh co-author Emily labau lucazi did so much work on this and she was brilliant on helping me write the book I had the
Thoughts I said what I wanted to say and she wrote it down so eloquently in the pages um we were a good team together writing the book but these women are what needed to be brought to to Justice and know that they they have a life now
They hopefully they have a little voice that that maybe they have now right you see see it’s um I always was very interested in this ruse of pretending that you need help you know my arm is broken can you help me put my sailboat you know over there and um what it
Seemed like to me psychologically is that the idea was to punish somebody for being kind in other words to prove to a person that they were an idiot for being nice nice for being kind yeah a way of saying I’m going to give you a choice are you going
To say no to a stranger or are you going to be nice and if you’re nice I’m going to prove to you that that’s dumb by hurting you yeah and it makes me wonder why what ha what would make a person believe that once upon a time they
Trusted someone and then were cheated or shocked or bopped over the head so that now it has to be projected onto some other poor person and I think we could you know between us all we know we know the story of what happened to him and certain things that made him feel that
He was cheated and and and that he was fooled by trusting certain women the woman that he was very drawn to that he put on a pedestal the woman that he thought was his biological sister who was actually his mother you know and these kinds of things but I but I always
Had the sense that it had something to do with wanting to say no you’re the idiot for for trusting not me to restore that sense of ego and uh I I wonder what thoughts are about that I think women are are more aware now and um they
Should be not to trust a stranger but understand and a lot of times I just say you know walk in twos and the other problem I have is walking with a cell phone and they’re not even looking around them they have their cell phone down and anyone can come up behind them
Say look can you help me with this real quick and the Chan is all yeah just a minute you know and they run right for it without being open to their surroundings and know everything that’s that’s happening in the in the moment I remember when I lived um I lived
Downtown and I would walk around and I wasn’t on my I was cautiously not on my phone I walked to my car and sometimes I would feel someone behind me that I wasn’t quite comfortable with and I just stop I lean against the wall and I’d let
That person walk by me because I figured if he was going to attack me I saw it coming so um that didn’t happen often but when it did I felt good that I was I thed some something you know something bad could have happened but um I think
Women need to empower themselves to know that they can take care of themselves if they know what’s happening and if they trust someone but not too much yeah and before I hand you off to the next person one of quick question is you also seem to challenge the notion
That Bundy was picking women who had hair parted down the middle and so forth and this is this fascinated me because that to me had always been one of the quintessential examples of somebody sort of you know going out and finding people who had the look of some prototypical
Person that you were angry at and it’s fascinating to hear that it may be a myth uh and so I wonder if you want to explode that myth a little bit because I think the audience will find that really interesting and and I’ll hand you off to
The okay um Bundy would sneak into rooms at night to women that were sleep in their bed I was asleep in my bed and I had curly frizzy hair so I didn’t match that you know long hair split in the middle a lot of the women did but I
Think it was by mistake because he always uh looked for women and oh I know this woman lives here and she lives in the basement room and he could get in and out attack her and take her out and it was like how does he do that how does
He actually physically move a body after he’s killed it and most of the time they weren’t dead yet and he’d take them out in the woods and then he’d kill them so actually one or two he left alive for for days and he’d go back and put makeup
On them and then go back and rape them so this was something I can’t comprehend but not all his victims had to look the same it just happened that if you look back in the 1978 you see a lot of college kids they have long hair part in
The middle so I think it was just his chances of getting women that looked like that were just very common it wasn’t something he was seeking out Craig thoughts yeah I’m I’m really interested to hear what your thoughts are on uh those who have been victimized and and unfortunately have sometimes have
This tendency to blame themselves or find some level of responsibility for having been victimized what would you say to them without obviously you can take a look at any situation a set of circumstances an environment in which a crime may have occurred or what specific behaviors may have
Contributed uh what factors uh may have contributed to becoming a victim but but that particularly that that area that they assume this guilt shame and responsibility uh often times for becoming a victim the survivors survivors yeah and what what would you say to them to mitigate that and to
Remove that concept from their minds whatever happened to them that put them in this situation yeah they’re a victim they might it might be a ongoing victim or happened in the past but they need to just calm down know it wasn’t their fault whatever happened it
Wasn’t their fault and they need to be able to hold themselves and take a deep breath and just love on themselves and then talk talk it out to anyone that can hear you anyone who’ll listen even if it’s a stranger and you see them and you want to talk about it they’ll listen
There’s people out there who just really want to help someone and they don’t know how and it’s hard to ask for help but by talking it kind of brings the two people into the conversation and just be good to yourself if it’s something that’s happening now do whatever you can of
Course to stop it but understand it’s not your fault get out of that situation to take care of yourself because only you can do it you’re the only one that can take care of yourself and make you yourself heal and strong again yeah those that’s an excellent
Observation um what would you say to victim’s families both for those who have survived and those victims who haven’t survived but what would you say to their families on on how to uh to beware number one of of trying to find some responsibility for what had have has happened with the
Victim um and also what would you say to them to help them survive they they of course should never say it’s your fault to them if you hadn’t gone out that night this wouldn’t have happened or you know if you hadn’t um gone yesterday when I told you not to
Go then that’s why this happened don’t put any guilt on that person they’re already feeling it enough and once they’re a victim the next day they’re a Survivor and they need to know that and they need to do whatever they can in their life to survive they just need to
Look inside themselves they all everyone has a strength inside of us and to pull it out and to actually use it to depend on that strength and not have to look next door saying will you take care of me they need to take care of themselves and as a victim a parent
Of a victim they have to know that whatever they live through the vict the victim themselves that they’re at a better place now they’re somewhere else whatever was attacking them or hurting them they’re not doing it anymore so you have to you can feel sorry for yourself
And you can hurt and it’ll hurt a long time and it may always hurt but know the love you had for that person and the way you felt together things you did together and I think that it it’ll never stop hurting completely but just make it
So that you can handle it you can tolerate it thank you cther Kathy I have to say I’ve been in this game 40 maybe 41 years here coming up I started in 1982 I have you have inspired me just by the comment you’ve made I’ve never heard
A victim say you know the next day you are a Survivor today you’re victim next day you’re a Survivor yeah that is so inspiring uh to hear you say that U because you you are teaching with authenticity and there is there’s no better teacher than somebody that can
Teach with authenticity so I I just think it’s awesome and so I’m always the cheerleader kind of guy you know keep going you know knock them in the nose if you have to but just you know keep rocking here yeah Dean what go ahead I’m
Sorry I didn’t mean to r no I was just going to say we had talked about um the police officers and something jumped into my mind um the night of the attack when the police were there and the paramedics were called and when they said I had been shot and they W wrapped
My face up as best they could and They Carried me down the wooden staircase out the front door I remember it was so cold I went went from being inside the house to being all sticky and hurting and not knowing anything and then I take me out
The front door and I’m freezing and I’m looking around and there are the police lights and there’s the ambulance lights turning and there’s the fir truck turning and all the uh radios were squawking the police were talking to each other and for a moment I thought I
Was at a festival at a carnival and in my mind I look right down and saw the games and everything in a as will and I’m just laying on my gurnie looking out to the side of me and I see that and I feel good no matter what had happened
I’m going to be okay because I was at my Carnival and then they took me into the ambulance and then they took me to over to the hospital wow is you know where he came up go ahead Greg I’m sorry Chris is there anything that you would tell
Police officers on how how to help a victim who suffered uh something similar to this what what kind of reassurance uh they could give to their client and honestly victims are are their clients aren’t they as a victim when you first are in touch with a police officer to me it helped that
They were saying you’re right you’re at a carnival it’s okay you know to go along with what I was feeling at that point because they weren’t saying nuh there’s not a carnival here because it was making me feel better at my Carnival so I think if if a trauma happens and
The person is talking like I’m at a carnival they should say yes you are you’re at that Carnival we’re gonna take care of you so just not front them up and say you know that’s not happening so don’t don’t challenge them but yeah and how about reassuring them of their
Safety and being protected you’re GNA be okay there’s more than one here we’re all here and we all are here for the same reason and that’s to take care of you and make sure you’re going to be safe interesting two thought two thoughts to dovetail into what Greg was just saying
Uh do you have any idea where he got the the log how did that where did that weapon come from there was a a bar right next to the Sor house and there were sisters Sor sisters who had actually been to that bar and left and went to
The S house this is in the backyard he probably saw them and the door was broken so they saw walked right in and he crept in he had dark clothes and right where the door is to go inside the F the um wreck room there was a pile of
Firewood that we had to use in our fireplace so he just bent down pick up the wood and walked in I don’t know if he had any clue of what he was doing I think it had been a long time since he had been attacking someone since he left
Colorado I think he was at a frenzy point I don’t I don’t it wasn’t his regular Mo it wasn’t him being clear on what he usually does it was him frantic I think and for him to go upstairs into the sorority house it makes me think
That he may have already been in the house before so um that was just my you know how did he know what Stairway to go to to get to this hallway so that’s just something I um I didn’t know because people came in and out of the s a lot um
Guys with their girl friends and just um no guys were ever allowed upstairs so to see one up there would have been totally you know irregular so someone would have said that but for him to walk up and try that first door that was unlocked and he
Attacked Margaret I think he was just overwhelmed he was an animal and then he rushed across the hall and attacked Lisa and he bitter like an animal because he wasn’t doing his regular Mo he wasn’t just doing it for the thrill he was doing it at a necessity I think and both
Of those uh women had one person in their room their roommates were both out so only one person in the room and then when he came to our room he opened the door and there were two of us in the room I don’t think it mattered to him he
Was just he was just gone he was just at a rage and by attacking me I think he thought the first blow would have killed me because it was so hard and then when my roommate started moving he was like oh my goodness there’s two of them I can
Get both of them now so I think he was just heightened alert and in a in a rage and then when he did run out the door I think he just completely ran and ran away and it actually is when he ran down the street and went to another of the um
Victim’s houses Cheryl Thomas and attacked her that night was there a sense of uh heightened smell or you know when in trauma you know when everything starts to slow down and everything else starts to multiply itself did you have a sense of smell or anything like that about him or okay no
Nothing like that one thing they did do is when I was in Tallahassee in the hospital and it was over a week later there was to fly me from Tallahassee to the airport to Miami to recuperate and as I got in the car at the hospital it
Was unmarked cards taking me it was one in front of the other my parents in one and they stopped right in front of the Kyo house and I’m like what and they said we want you to go in to see if anything’s missing to see if you can
Identify something gone as would might take as a trophy and I’m like I really don’t want to go up there and it took an officer on each elbow walking me up the stairs and as I walked up I saw Margaret’s room with the yellow tape and
I saw Lisa’s room on the other side with the tape and I saw my door with the tape and they let me go in and they look I looked up my dresser the furniture was all on one side of the wall I looked at my dresser and I couldn’t even tell you
What was there to see what was missing I looked at my my desk I looked at the footboard of my bed and then I looked at my bed and now it was brown it was stained with brown my comforter which I just picked out and love that was in
Just in a ball all brown and nasty and I looked at my bed the sheets were off but the mattress was all stained and brown and there was blood on the walls and I looked at that and I took a deep breath and said I know now where this happened I
Can I don’t have to visualize it and think that it happened it happened right here it happened to me now I’m ready to go home and that was I think it was healthy for me a lot of people don’t want their victims to go back to the
Site or it’ll hurt them or something but you know karus the sheriff when I told him I saw him a couple years ago we kept in touch um I told him what they did and he’s like oh my God I would never allow that to have happened and in my case it
Happened and I was appreci apprciated fascinating and on on that dovetail I you just kicked something in my mind post trial after it was all over was there anything you wanted back I mean we talk about these Savages getting a trophy but how about you from a victim’s position is there anything that
Gave you comfort that you may have wanted to get back uh from your room that evening that the police may have had in custody no I walked away from it I I didn’t need I didn’t need anything from there it was taken away and I didn’t want it they could keep it okay
Did any of the other survivors if if you know I do not know since I was in not no count I’m sure they all kept their Kai Omega stuff and you know had all their trophies and and everything and actually a box was sent down to my house they
Boxed everything up the sority sisters and sent it to to a box in Miami and my mother had it in the attic for a long time when I got married and moved she gave it to my husband at the point and put it up in the attic and one day I
Went up there and found it I just sat on the floor in the attic and just looked at everything I didn’t cry I just remembered when I got it oh I remember this I remember when I got that and it was weird because I wasn’t crying oh I
Got this and it’s gone you know it was just therapeutic for me to look at it and be happy when I got it and then when I got a divorce my ex-husband threw everything away he knew what was in the boxes and he threw everything away so
Right now I have nothing you know no nothing but the um newspaper articles my mother clipped every newspaper article she could find she didn’t want me to hear the stories over and over and over and read it and read it so we didn’t listen to the news at home and I open up
The newspaper to read and there would be articles cut out just all over the paper it was hard for me to read anything thing and Mama saved all these in the process of writing the book I found a box that had a lot of hundreds of of
Articles that she cut out of the newspaper from the day of the trial I mean I’m sorry the day of the attack through the trial through the execution there was just a lot to go with and that gave me a lot of background information also on how things occurred during the
Time frame so that was like very useful it’s like sitting down and talking with her at that point but I found that very very beneficial for me interesting Dean and then Dr pado you know Kathy you you mentioned a couple of times uh about the presence of
Law enforcement you you talked about it specifically that night when the officer came into your room and then you talked about it again um when you were in the hospital um and there was uh police officer there can can you talk a little little bit about just the power of that
Presence I know it’s a lot of times we think about what can people say and do but maybe a little more about that okay when I woke up and the police were there when they first called it was I don’t know that I passed out or just close my
Eyes and I guess it’s a past out uh it wasn’t for long it was just until I heard a commotion again and I was still scrunched up in my smallest little ball I could be and had my eyes just shut and then when the light went down again when
That bright light left the room and went down again it was black I thought for sure he was still going to come back and get me even after I saw him leave the room you know scramble out the room and then I was being noticed by someone else
Standing next to me and I was afraid and then he pulled the covers down said it’s okay I’m a police officer I’m going to take care of you it’s okay and I did I felt such relief that I knew he was going to protect me and that no one was
Going to come in the room and hit me again and I found that so reassuring and he held my hand the paramedics were working on me and he held my hand that whole time because I didn’t want him to leave me and as I was carried out of the um
The house and carried on the stretcher the cop was same cop was still holding my hand and when they put me into the ambulance the last thing I saw before they closed the door was the officer and that was just remarkable to me that one person
That one person gave me so much comfort through different stages of the night and leaving the house W thank you Gary Dr Brado um there were some comments that you made in response to some some of the questions Kathy that kind of got back to some of the the questions I had raised
Earlier and I just wanted to ask a couple things for for clarification so so one thing that I always wonder wondered about in this situation is did they give you a pen and paper and try to get you to describe what happened I since you were unable to talk I mean for
Example in the the infamous case of another serial offender Tommy lyells there was also an attack on multiple girls sleeping in beds and there was a girl called um uh Sur was the last name 10 years old and and the throat had been cut and the neighbors had the the the
Wherewithal to pull out paper and a pen and have her write out what happened and they were able to go and kind of quickly catch this guy that had come in through the window or screen and um did they did they try a technique like that or was it
Just like you couldn’t talk so they thought you had been shot and didn’t get the details what’ they do at at right at the house um at in the hospital when I went into the ER there were officers all around me and questioning who did this
Do you know who did this and you know I’m still in the trauma stage not even um being helped yet and you know I’m just saying I don’t know I don’t know did you see him before have you ever met him before and I’m just like I don’t
Know and then the drugs kicked in and I oh didn’t know right and then um it was up in my room when the police were still trying to get information from me when I was hypnotized and yes I use paper and I also Al could hear myself talk you know
Like talking like this with your teeth clenched I could hear myself saying what I wanted to say and get it out on paper or just letting them get right close to me and hearing what I was saying but they’re the ones that helped me know what happened because they fed it back
To me what I had said what I was trying to say so you had the use of your hands for right you could communicate that way for all those that period when you were recovering the ability to speak and um it’s it’s very interesting I guess you’re doing that still with the writing
The book I guess and and um and the other thing is um you referenced you you said something very very interesting that you wondered if Bundy had been in that house before because of the familiarity with the layout and this gets back to the question I had asked
Earlier which is do you think it was just a random attack of somebody on a kind of a spree where he go there and then the block and the whole or do you think that it was targeted because he had seen you know the young women living
There and or thought there was some vulnerability I’m just curious about that because that’s a very interesting statement about having been in there before I think both both things you said are correct I think he was on a frenzy he wanted to do this and he didn’t know
Um where to go and the woman that he targeted after us was someone that they say that Bundy was stalking or followed around or that he wanted to get her and she wasn’t home that night so her car was gone so that’s when he came to the S
House and I think the back door was open it was accessible for him he he followed the girls he hid until they went in and that’s when he picked up the Oak and came in but I think he was at a frenzy too I think he’s was like I’m getting
Someone I’m getting someone tonight and I think that’s how he went in and really processed everything was he was going to do it no matter what he had to do it this is so interesting and I and I I think other people in the panel are
Going to want to weigh in on this but this is very reminiscent of stories of other offenders that have a person they’re targeting and are extremely angry that that person you know bedevils them by not coming home or you know changing their patterns or whatever and
Then they sort of go and randomly Target one person or a bunch of people to sort of get the need met yeah and um I wonder if other people have thoughts or comments about that but but I I can certainly think of a few offenders that did that um anyone else have any
Thoughts on that well just following up on that Gary I think that’s consistent with what we’ve seen where an offender will select a substitute victim as an example to the preferred victim and whether it be somebody that they knew that they were stalking that they targeted and out of their frustration but their
Uh determination and commitment to commit the crime say in this situation that night or that particular time and they’ve selected to do that they’ll often times select substitute victims that there was no real significant relationship that they had had with them necessarily it could be somebody walking down the street a
Complete stranger just in the wrong time the wrong place yeah and be selected that way as a substitute I had a quick question about the inside of the house Kathy is were there lights on I was also intrigued that you thought maybe he had been in before was a it was
A back door right he came in yeah yeah and then and then did you have to go upstairs or were you on what level were you on when you came in the back door when you came in the back yeah you were on the first level and it was a big
Recck room with the fireplace and if it had dark there usually we had a light in there but if it had been dark he would not have been able to see but most of the do sisters left a light on okay so like and then did he have to go upstairs
Yes he had to go into the forer from the back of the house to the front of the house by the forer and then right there were stairs and he walked up those stairs and there was a hallway that went to the left and a hallway that went to
The right and he chose the one that went to the right which was our hallway and I think I don’t know how far he would have gone that night with doors not being locked and him trying them if he had been successful in killing us you know there’s no way of
Knowing how many he would have killed that night but he did I think he may have known because there were other stairwells other stair places they could go up so he almost knew right there and right upstairs was where he wanted to be so did the hallway have a a light that
Was that we had been told and um the light was on but it was turned off it was um turned off by the bulb so it was very dark it was very dark in a hallway and the light was on earlier when another all these stories coming to get
Put together a sority sister had seen the light on when she went to the restroom so how did he see when he opened your door there was light right our windows were open our curtains and you got the ambient light from outside that illuminated the room enough that he
Could he could see but he didn’t know the trunk was between the beds he couldn’t see that yeah couldn’t see lock okay thank you yes any other followup to any of the other experts on the panel that you all may have I I it’s my understanding that
Bundy had been at a dance or something and had been rejected by a college girl who kind of told me is an old man and you know get lost and that is sort of what precipitated his frenzy that night is things were not going well he W he
Was not um able to support himself without theft he had been frustrated and then for it was kind of the final straw for her to kind of push him away like you you know you’re an old guy what are you doing here uh which is not I think how
He wanted to think of himself and that’s what led him to go follow some girls out yes interesting that adds a creepy symbolism to targeting Kimberly leech the idea of uh I’m closer to her and age than uh you know you than being an old man uh sort of makes it gives me
The the chills to think about when he kid kidnapped Kimberly leech he had gone to her school school was getting out and he had his white van which was stolen and he went and said get in this car and she goes no I don’t want to get in your car people saw that
And someone in particular says Oh I thought it was you know she did something at school and her father’s mad at her and making her get into the van and he walked off not knowing that was Bundy going to attack her yeah you know um it that makes me
Think think of something that that’s been going through my head during this meeting had you ever heard of Bundy before these attacks reading in the news anything at all no I was at College sophomore College having fun I you know it wasn’t on my radar at all sadly to
Say I wasn’t up with the news right but no I had never heard of his name right and even if you had my guess is you would have associated with a different part of the country yes not yeah right so wasn’t like people were on high alert
To be lucky and was it a high crime or low crime kind of area I mean where any I mean you you had the door unlocked yeah so was that typical of the the time and place well we had our door unlocked in the sorority house and you know I off
And on I wanted to lock it but I was told who are you afraid of your sorority sisters so that kind of um set the scene for that but yeah the sority was I mean the campus was pretty safe we had our you know our amount of um people being
Attacked and stuff but it wasn’t like a high crime area yeah by the way is that building still there or did they did the University tear it down or what the Kyo house yeah was actually taken down and re uh put back up it’s beautiful so it
Doesn’t even look like the house they redid it and it’s just like a gorgeous Southern Mansion have you visited the spot or you’ve just seen it on the Internet or something I actually went back to the sorority um it was about 1980 my I was with my husband and his
Friends and we were gonna go watch a football game Florida State game and I wanted to go by the sorority house and I that’s all I said I wanted to go by the sorority house and as I did they parked and got me out and said go ahead and go
On in we’ll be back later we’re going to get a beer so they took off and I’m standing on the the sidewalk on the side of the street and I looked at the house and it was totally different I didn’t know what was what was going on but I
Walked up slowly and as I did I could see this is the same house my mind had turned it into something else so when I started walking up the pavement to the front door it was my baby steps literally I had to take baby steps to
Get in there and as I did I walked in and I asked for a sority sister and there you know no one knew with what I was whom I was talking about they were all getting ready for the game and moving around and stuff so I walked up
And I went up the stairs that I used to cringe going up again after the attack and I went up and went into my room I opened the door and it was so bright and so Airy and the curtains were open and the walls were white and the girls had
Decorated it so cute it was a deep breath of yeah things continue things keep going on and I took my breath I took it with me and I went back and sat on the curb waiting to get my beer I love it yes was yeah Kathy what year was that
That was in 1980 and then it was about two years after the attack two years after yeah I thought I wanted to make sure yeah okay thank you last on 2020 I I think it was um I went with a um TV station was doing a show for me
And they took me back to Tallahassee to walk around and see if I had any weird feelings or anything and we went to the hall I was in a dormatory um when I first um went in as a freshman I was in a dormatory and my mother hated that she
Was just so afraid that you know anything could happen to me in a dormatory it wasn’t safe so that’s why when I graduated when I I’m sorry the year of 78 went and in 1977 summer it was time for me to go back to school my
Parents arranged for me to move into the swy house at that point because they thought it was safer living there than in the dormatory so in the fall of 77s when I moved into the house and that’s when I got my bed spread and had my room all
Pretty ready to go and it was January the 15th when I got attacked of 78 and I can’t imagine how bad my parents must have felt putting Me In Harm’s Way like that and made the arrangements to do it it wasn’t like yeah there’s a room for
It was they had to do something to get me in that house interesting if you’re just joining us sh we’re we’ve been speaking with Kathy Kleiner rubben who’s the author of a great new book that’s just hitting the bookshelf so we’re going to make her a number one besteller for the New York
Times where and is that your is that your book over your shoulder there W oh look it is perfect can can you reach one and hold it up to the camera so everybody can see it I didn’t let see a light in the dark you can and it’s available now on Amazon
Right yes came out on the third anywhere you can get it any out bookstore it’s a light in the dark surviving more than Ted Bundy okay so this is the only mem are to challenge the PO the popular notion as Bundy as a handsome you know Charming
Killer who you know all the victims trusted I I this is you are are a amazing human being uh to write this about your life and your experience at the you know at the hands of this Savage um I so I’m going to turn some time over
To you Kathy here’s here’s something I haven’t done yet but this is the first time it just hit me while I’ve been listening to you you know the panel that you have in front of you on this program here tonight you know there’s a ton of experience and
Information about this so I want to turn some time over to you to ask them anything you want to just you can just say Dr Bato Dr Burgess and I know Dr Ram you know as a friend whoever from your position about something that may you
Know have been here for a while and that you want to know about if that helps um yes it does Dr picado uh what what do you think about my story is have you met other victims like this that have helped themselves you know um because victims are despite what some
Of these offenders want to believe are Di diverse human beings their reactions can be very different and um some of the extremely resilient people who come from supportive backgrounds who have spiritual beliefs or can make existential meaning out of what happened to them who are altruistically inclined
Who are given an opportunity by the world to be uh you know to kind of use a megaphone of the media or something else to speak to people uh you know you you you have those characteristics and obviously you know you were able to take this awful thing and to turn it toward
Other people um have I met other people like that yes certainly the the Cold Case Foundation uh you know uh uh has encountered plenty of people like that um there are also other people who are a lot more afraid a lot more traumatized um their lives are
Absolutely Ely in pieces uh and um it is extremely extremely um inspirational to people like that um to hear you know what you have overcome what you’ve been able to do there are people in this audience tonight I guarantee you who have been victims of violent crime there
May be people here have been afraid to even tell people that they’ve been victimized who who have information that may lead to someone getting captured or arrested or taken off the street or what and they’re absolutely petrified so there’s no small feat what you are doing but absolutely yes I have encountered
People like that and they they never cease to amaze me um I wonder uh what other people’s thoughts are on that but I’ve certainly been very very inspired uh Greg Dean and Katherine Chris Anyone well for my perspective you you are are a tremendous model and example to would be uh survivors and what otherwise could be going on in their lives of um of those who are having a very very difficult time more difficult time dealing with it
Uh I think you give hope and a sense of confidence you speak with such confidence and determination um and that comes from who you are as an individual and your character uh thank you for sharing that and I think it reinforces the concept to other victims uh that you can be a Victor
Versus being a victim After experiencing such a horrible horrible event in in your life and U it gives great hope and confidence for others well I hope I’ve helped you all to understand maybe a victim more um to see what they need in the beginning the
Very catch them and help them in the beginning um it’s at that time where I think they can decide yeah I’m going to get through it or no and I never thought of it as no I wouldn’t get through it it was hard it was my little island that
Saved me because it took me so long to get to that island and one other thing was um I was afraid of men right after the attack I was not like they’re going to kill me but just I was uncomfortable around men I didn’t know and once I got
My wired my mouth um opened up I went to work at a lumber yard because I figured where am I going to see the most men at the you know as fast as I could to make sure I’m I’m going to get over this and I think I worked there three weeks and
Decided that you know not all men are going to you know hurt me and that there’s a lot of cute construction guys that go to lumber yards so at that point you know that was just something else that I visualized and actually did to help help myself to move on and
Did you have any go ahead M please no I just GNA say I think that what you just said is so characteristic of you of how you are able to find events in the in the in your life that you could just take and move on that’s really rather remarkable thank
You my mom didn’t like it at the time um but I also wonder uh how much having that experience where you describe kind of passing out and then waking up and where is he and and that whole gastal and then having the hypnosis as a way to help you recover whatever memory
You could I I don’t think we use that too much nowadays um I could be wrong but I I uh I just found that really really interesting that they I’m wondering how they would see that I could see where uh like a defense lawyer might say well what you they they
Put things in your mind to that you know you really didn’t remember that but so what I found fascinating where you did remember pretty uh well we we don’t know anyone else that um would would have challenged that right no my roommate was there she
Passed out and when she woke up is when she went to into the hallway to get us help so but she said she passed out I don’t know how long she was out before she went and got us help was she hit yes she had her with the same Club too yeah
Right I mean his whole behavior is is very I will have time tonight but just looking at at Bundy’s Behavior coming in and and all that and where he had been and so forth is quite interesting also to try to put the whole picture together
But uh thank you so much I oh you’re welcome nice to talk to you helpful so Kathy one one other thought for me and then what we’ll do is we’ll go around the the room kind of wrap it up and then uh it will come back to you for the
Final word uh and then we always like to leave on a positive note here in totality because you have inspired so many uh people here this evening uh we go to Hawaii we have a little song that we put on and it takes us over to Hawaii
And gives us the Aloha spirit for lack of a better term but m my my final question to you is from my perspective what would you like to share uh with the world about your sority sisters who did not survive can you tell me about them it hurts it hurts it took
10 years for Bundy to be executed for their deaths and he kept um Bundy was um found guilty and and sentence to be e executed it took 10 years and a I don’t understand this but he got four stats of execution during that time and I I I
Know the process I just don’t get it anyway uh Margaret and Lisa didn’t have 10 more years they didn’t have an extension on their life just because he kept getting extensions on his on his death sentence um I that that bothers me um final word Greg we’ll start with you
And then we’ll go to Dr picato Dean um and then we’ll leave Dr ramlin and Dr Burgess and um then Kathy you you can share your message if that’s okay with you I would like to thank you okay wonderful well once again Kathy thank you so much for your your cander and and
Your openness your honesty and your integrity um and I think uh from my perspective personally I think uh a takeaway for me is the power of a person’s independent will to choose how they will respond to a situation and and the the level of influence U and magnitude that that will
Have on the ability of an individual to survive U thank you you’re a great example to all of us thank you sir my turn uh to go I think uh um well I mean what what can one say after a story like this uh it’s extremely moving
I I um I’m inspired I think that that it is in a lot of ways reinvented the way that I sort of thought about that night and what happened there and what might have precipitated it and all of that and um what happened afterwards certainly really brings the story to life um I
Also think there’s a tremendous amount of symbolism in so many aspects of the story with the light and of course shining in the darkness and um even the symbolism of going to work in the lumber yard after being attacked with a with a LW uh that you go from Men Who choose to
Use wood violently to those who use it to construct uh and and being able to kind of um find peace in that um one of the things I’m hoping you can touch on when it comes to be your turn for the final statement is the advocacy work that you
Do um I it sounds like that’s a very important part of your life now uh and um I’d love I’d love it if you’d tell us a little bit about the work you do and I would also love it if you’d be willing to stay in touch because of some of the
Work we do where it might be so helpful to have you as a voice uh and um and I’d be curious if you’d be open to that I would definitely any questions or anything I can help on a particular thing or a victim that I might have help
You to get through with or to help you know heal better I I’m here anytime great great thank you of course well Kathy well what a night and uh thank you so much for just being so open and transparent tonight and uh I I think uh Chris mentioned it earlier as well
But you know your statement of maybe being a victim on the first night but the second night you were a Survivor and I think it goes to that core factor of you know people forget they have choices right and uh we don’t always things happen in our life that we didn’t choose
But how we respond to them and how we move forward uh we have a choice and and to listen to your journey and the choices you’ve made all the way along at each one of those intervals um is a testimony uh and a great road map I
Think for uh people who are dealing with similar circumstances so thank you so much it was an honor to be here tonight thank you I think it’s my my turn um my takeaway is a couple of things one I was impressed in how talking helps that you didn’t get a chance
Initially uh right now we like to think that we get people into to help and talk and so forth but you on your own were able to say how that was so important for you so that’s a plus and then I think the other important thing is how
We have to get if we can the victim view of that night and it isn’t always just the offender and we so often just get the offender side without getting the victim side and I think you’re making us have to rethink some of what we had
Heard or certainly from my part what I had heard about Bundy that this puts puts it in a very different perspective and I always like to always try to get the victim side and then the offender side so we will have to work on at least I will on reconceptualizing this whole
Situation and I think the third takeaway is my surpris at how some of the reactions were from seor sorority from the University to this I know it was 1978 which of course is obviously not 2023 but the change that maybe or maybe not has occurred over these intervening years
So I I uh very much appreciate and certainly hope that we can keep in touch with maybe Zoom you into talk to my students uh next semester when we would be taking up Ted Bundy thank you very much back to you so thank you yes good night an good
Night hi so hi I’m this is the first time I’m on this panel I don’t know why everybody disappeared I guess we’re supposed to X ourself out um but you know my statement to you we I knew before you wrote the book we talked about writing
We talked about um you know what you could do to pursue it I’m glad you did pursue it good for you it’s A Hard Road to relive and work a manuscript over and over and over and over kudos to your your co-writer so but I’m happy to see
It it finally came to fruition and then you’re out there uh doing you know what you need to do with this so great congratulations it was important you being here tonight thank you well thank you I guess I have to have to ex out I’m not
Sure hi my name is Kathy Kleiner Ruben I am the co- i’m sorry the writer of light the dark surviving more than Ted Bundy it I W wrote it with my co-author Emily Lao lusi she is a wonderful artist a wonderful writer she took all my thoughts and wrote them down on paper
And told my story with um with my words in her writing which was amazing I am um I’m glad I’ve survived what I have and I’m helping people by telling my story and by telling them this maybe they can help someone else or maybe they can help
Them I have many people who come to me and say they could never do it that I it’s not possible for them to process and do the things that I have done and to that I say you can do it it’s might be very hard it might seem not worth it
But you can take care of yourself you can do what you need to do and feel good about it if it’s baby steps that you need to do find a little island find a goal find something you want or need and just walk toward it and let that be your
Goal and when you get there and when you attach yourself to that goal you can feel good about yourself and know you’ve walked a little bit away from what is being bothering you what attacked you what you’re going through it doesn’t matter because you have to depend on
Yourself to walk through and go to find the next thing that’s good for you in this life you’re not here to do it alone there’s people that can help you you have to always know that the world needs you just because you’re feeling damaged or you’re hurt that’s okay but you need
To get better for the world they need to know that you’re here and that they can help you be here along with the things that we discussed tonight I did mention that I had my breast cancer when I was um 32 diagnosed with stage two breast cancer I had a radical
Myectomy which gave me chemo again and um that to me that was the worst thing I’ve been through was having to take chemo twice in my life but I understood that by taking care of myself by healing with medicine by taking care of what the
Doctors told me to do and what not to do I got strong again and I did it because I wanted to I wanted to do it for those around me who needed me to be there for them when I was diagnosed with lupus at
13 one of the things I was told was I was never supposed to have children that was one of the things that would activate the lupus again in my system well my son just turned 42 years old he was born in 1981 and he’s the best thing
That’s happened to me he’s more well and healthy and my big boy that gave me two beautiful grandchildren when I talk and and talk to groups I just want to let them hear what I say and then I want them to talk talk about about it I found
That’s my biggest thing I can offer is to get the help you needed go over it in your mind and take care of yourself to resolve it when I talk to groups they want to hear about how I’ve done things and I can give them suggestions but they
Need to do it themselves and many people have come up to me since I’ve been speaking out and saying how much they appreciate and that I have helped them I hope so I hope I can help people by reading my book a light in the dark surviving more than Ted Bundy it’ll help
You understand more about who I am and who I was going to be without being attacked I had no clue in school at that point but Bundy’s attack put me through a new a new life a new segment of what I was going to be doing next I never went
Back to school I never went back to FSU I went and took another role in my life I be I got married and had my baby so um that was more important to me then and life changes you may be doing one thing and it might be hard for you and you
Need to get out of that and you need to do it yourself you need to grasp that that strength inside of you and understand that you can do it you really can it might take slow but think good about yourself you’re the only one can help yourself be happy be happy with the
Little accomplishments if you can go out and see a flower today and yesterday you couldn’t leave the house that’s big that’s a big accomplishment and that may be your goal is every day work a little further out of the house until you’re not scared to go out you don’t have any
Fear that something’s going to happen to you that you’re going to get whole again after I was diagnosed with breast cancer I had um two miscarriages I wanted to have a baby again and it just wasn’t it wasn’t in for me to have a baby so I um
Went ahead and had the two m carriages and went to um the decision not to have a baby anymore so my husband and I went out and bought a sailboat and we called her Sally so that was our new baby in life and it seemed like that was okay I
Was okay with that that we were going to start doing different things I actually have a motorcycle and we go motorcycle riding and life’s great and I always say to look forward to the next hurdle cuz it’s going to be something in front of you keep running till you can cross over
It and and now I say walk really really fast because you don’t know what the next hurdle is going to hold for you but look around it and look and see if it’s something good because there probably is going to be something good there I hope you enjoyed my speak to speaking tonight
And I look forward to having comments I can be reached on uh Kleiner Cathy Gmail and I’m also on Facebook which is where you can find um links to the book to be bought through Amazon or any of the other book sellers so I hope you have
Have a good evening thank you for listening to me and godp speed and good Night Harding every day I’m stressed out 24/7 babe no no time outs wish we could fly away you and I go to our favorite place oh yeah yeah make special memories together I’ll be your company now and forever I’ll say we fly away you and me go to our favorite place
Feeling the sun on my face and a away with you with you ha with you with you ha why with you with you Haai I need a Summer Breeze some fresh a to put my mind at e no no no cares you want to come with me me and you go to our favorite tree are you ready now we jump on a plane now we’re taking away yeah we’re taking away don’t hesitate
Now we’re taking away yeah we’re taking away we’ll never Cal down we’re going away yeah we’re going away you and me feeling the sun of My
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