I’m now there my heart but I can not go beyond not the way just the seem so far away it’s just the way waiting you with using of life no escaping our because we made welcome to the Why We Fight podcast I’m your host Justin Stam if you’re
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Podcast with Justin Stam and you can choose three different tier levels to contribute to this important work but whatever you decide to do thank you for listening I appreciate all of my listeners thank you thank you thank you okay so we’re just having an impromptu discussion on how to do
Apologetics against Jehovah’s Witnesses the Watchtower bible and track society as what they were called before and before that of course they were called the international Bible students so uh I’m going to record it just so our guys here can can Source it um as a point of
Reference on how to overcome some of their um objections but also I’m going to copy this and put it into some other public um uh social media and try to get uh discussions going on with other people it’s not going to be too long uh
I think I might be able to do it for about an hour uh discuss things for about an hour but uh it’ll be closer to 30 minutes and really you only need about 30 minutes to kind of get into these uh subjects so so one of our guys actually two of our guys
Specifically um had questions about how to handle Jehovah’s Witnesses I’m a former Jehova’s Witness I grew up in it my dad was an elder my grandfather was an elder I had other relatives all my relatives were Witnesses uh my father as well as my grandfather gave speeches in their
Big Stadium District Conventions where there was 50,000 or more people I personally uh got trained on how to do public speaking as well in their Theocratic Ministry School where you would learn how to do public speaking in front of others as well as being able to do apologetics um in discussion of that
Speech as well as in doing their door-to-door work and over the years growing up in it as well as um beginning to leave and then came back around so I began to leave around 21 years old 22 years old came back and after I got married and met my
Wife while still a witness we both left after about a year of being married uh I was the first one to leave uh out of all my family and relatives I was the black sheep and then eventually everybody started seeing the writing on the wall regarding not only yet again more failed
Prophecy but a specific Watchtower that was put out in about I think it was around 2002 it was around 2002 so there was there was a series of Corrections from uh between 1997 to 2002 and those Corrections were beginning to redefine what their entire Jehovah’s Witness religion was based on and uh uh
Their whole idea of changing their name after Charles Russell died into the Rutherford days of going from the international Bible students associated with their Watchtower magazine to uh the Jehovah’s Witnesses was that they were witnessing The Changing Times of what they believe to be a prophecy from Russell that he interpreted from The
Book of Daniel and other prophecies re revolving around 1914 and what they changed at that time period which was the last straw for me was that they originally called themselves Witnesses in that those that were of age and of Reason began witnessing the beginning of the end times in
1914 and that was a specific set of people Everyone alive at the Age of Reason began witnessing the changing of what they beli to be the beginning of the end okay and this and they had two major books that they put out during that time period period about 1920 and thereafter
One of them was Millions now living will never die okay so those people that were witnesses to the coming of the end and the return of Christ they they they based that idea on that many but not all would accept Christ through the true belief which is what they believe to be
The Jehovah’s Witnesses will not die because once he returns he will whisp them into the new heavens and the new Earth the new order is what they called it and they had another publication uh uh called um so it was Millions now living will never die and
Then this generation will by no means pass away there was another one too that I’ll bring up later on uh so how that changed when I was uh later on as I was speaking about was that they said the generations will by no means pass away the generation will
No means pass away that that means there has to be a definitive time in which Christ will return from those people of the Age of Reason and then they Chang it to Generations new light which is the whole Enlightenment era free Masonic influence from Russell and Rutherford and
Frons um no I think his name was and others they were all or at least suspected to be Masons past the Russell period And so redefining generation will by no means pass away to generation means that it could be 10,000 years from now so if it’s Generations that have
Been at an Age of Reason from 1914 to 1924 to 1934 to 1944 that means this thing can go on forever that changes everything so Millions now living will never die doesn’t mean anything doesn’t mean squat the witnesses that are of God they believe the name and pronunciation is
Jehovah means everything to them tied to their name that they are Witnesses of the 1914 time period so once you change the Generation Well by no means pass away to Generations you’ve just changed the entire religion this is on top of all the other failed prophecies okay so U that gives you a
Context of what made me leave and eventually everybody else started seeing the writing on the wall uh it I think it led to a lot of anger and degeneracy within the witnesses because around the time of 200 2 to 2004 there were many um exposures of child sex abuse just like
What happens in the Catholic church where false Catholics act improperly obviously criminally and the way they handled it and the exposure of how they’ve had ongoing multi-million dollar lawsuits against the multi-billion dollar Corporation of the Watchtower uh was really dragging the entire uh uh company down and they kept
It quiet because because they had this staff of tons of attorneys that they paid for uh their their law school to go to law school specifically so they can defend the Watchtower from all all of their um all of their lawsuits there’s people that sue them for uh
Being raised in a cult for for uh mental anguish and and U punitive damages they’ve been sued for uh covering up child sex abuse all all manner of thing so they settle out of court and they have gag orders and they paid off a lot of officials it’s really run like a a
Free mesonic Mafia it’s pretty crazy actually so uh once you kind of see that coming forth from uh the ground level and there’s independent uh Publications that interview some of these for former Witnesses and they’re coming out of the closet left and right it just built up to such an extent
That you don’t need absolute EMP erical word for word proof to realize it’s not only a false religion because it has nothing to do with original trinitarian Christianity from the ancient period um it has everything to do with proving that uh the criminality of everything going
On and the covering it up right and uh the reinvention of the entire religion and now you don’t even have the same belief systems like for instance since 19 1929 this is just recently since 1921 29 every member of their belief system uh is required to hand in a time card on
A weekly basis and monthly you’re supposed to have a minimum of I think it was like nine and a half hours when I was a kid of monthly publishing meaning going door too and handing out their tracks and their books and their their Watchtower magazine so when you have a
Requirement and then they say if you’re not if you don’t hand in your card even if you’ve done it for 20 years uh they they you get a shepherding call from the elders is there something wrong why didn’t you turn it in why didn’t you go out why aren’t you
Publishing the word of God and if you do it for three months in a row then they they label you as an um an inactive publisher of the Jehovah’s Witnesses right and at that time they believe that if you’re inactive for three months it’s a conscious decision to stop working for God
And that if the end of the world Armageddon Christ return happen that you’ll be destroyed and you won’t enter into the new heavens and new earth it’s a very serious thing just this past year they ended the requirement for doing that and just this past uh few years
They changed the requirement of saying that if you read the Bible it has to be the New World Translation and if you use on a constant basis as your source of information for non Watchtower produc Bible uh the the New World Translation that you’re in a state of sin right if
You’re researching on how to convert a Catholic or an Evangelical or a King James Bible reading person that’s fine but it can’t be your source so tons of witnesses had like 20 different versions of a Bible Ian I grew up with an entire library of the emphatic diaglot and the
Latin bulate and the Interlinear and the Jerusalem bible everything I grew up with everything okay but you’re not supposed to use that as your main Bible now they have actually abandoned uh the use of solely using the New World Translation right so everything has has changed they removed the requirement of
Publishing they removed the requirement of the New World Translation now they’re saying that uh not everybody upon the arrival of Christ at Armageddon will that that are not witnesses will be destroyed in fact many people that that are good that are not witnesses will
Make it so they gave up on the hard line line stance probably because they’re losing so many people through attrition uh that and getting sued that they they’ve let off the gas so they can keep their little scam going on so that’s kind of my my background there’s
A lot more to it but I tried to move fast so uh anybody hearing the recording will understand that you have to experience it directly it you have to live the entire life it’s very involved you go to a Sunday morning meeting at 9:00 and it lasts for two and
A half hours and then you may go out uh afterwards both at lunch and you might do door-to-door work that’s what they call it door too work and then you have your Tuesday night bible study group and that Tuesday night bible study group starts at 7:30 at night so if you’re
Going to school elementary or High School junior high they don’t care you got to be there miss too many meetings you’re inactive so that meeting would last inside somebody’s home and while in somebody’s home uh there’s about 20 or 30 people you’re studying people you’re studying one of their books and they
Read a paragraph and they ask a question and you need to be answering some of these questions due to reading and studying the material that you’re going to go over that night so that lasts about an hour Thursday night you go again what’s called the Theocratic Ministry school and that is 7:30 at
Night as well and that lasts usually until about 9:15 to 9:30 so by the time you get home both as a parent and a kid you’re wiped out but guess what there’s more Saturday morning you’re supposed to meet for the field service meeting that’s at 9:00 am and that’s when everybody gets their
Territory cards and in groups uh usually of about 5 to 10 uh you go from the wherever the church or the the they call the Kingdom Hall is they take you to that particular neighborhood and you’re supposed to cover on the territory card the entire neighborhood and for every person that
Answers you keep a service record of what they said and what you left with them so you can do a return visit they called it okay if somebody had a dog or they threaten you with a shotgun you make a note don’t go back there somebody’s not home you do a
Return visit because they weren’t home because they believe you have to reach every single person because their entire purpose of doing this is that they say this good news of the Kingdom what call gospel will be preached throughout the entire inhabited Earth for a witness to
All the nations and then the end will come so the more they do it the quicker they’ll reach everybody and then the end will come here’s the irony that uh the exponential growth of the Earth’s population continues to rise so how you going to ever reach everybody it’s it’s
Impossible so that’s what you’re dealing with so the level of commitment to a religion where you have all those other problems that you’re talking about and I scratched the surface there probably 10% of what I talked about with the problems of the history of the changing
Of the belief then you have to be fully committed in this rat race of your personal life and your active Life as a witness so once you realize uh why am I committed to this when obviously uh there’s so many changes you have questions about the commitment of
The those running the entire operation and then as a teenager you’re not supposed to hang out with anybody right other than Jehovah’s Witnesses they’re supposed to hang out with worldly people so you’re hanging out with other witness kids and they have parties and then they get in trouble
People are fooling around kids are being kids teenagers are being teenagers and you start looking around as a teenager you’re like you know I’m serious about this and all you guys that are Elders kids you’re just screwing around you’re no different than all the other worldly
Kids we’re not supposed to hang out with so as a teenager going into the late teens you realize what a bunch of BS it is right and that that that’s that’s probably the end of my personal experience before we start going into the particulars of the subjects of how
To overcome them but before I do that did anybody have any questions or wan to want to State anything here okay so um so really quick uh we we had uh if there’s some background noise it’s because my boy’s running around stuff so hold on one second I’ll be right
Back okay so before we had spoken a few times on uh doing apologetics in general and the different categories of methods of proof to argue your your points and so uh I think I brought it up before about how to argue for the existence of God through the four
Methods well this is also arguing for and against uh uh an opposing world viiew and that could be Jehovah’s Witnesses that can be evangelicals that can be Orthodox whatever and it could be four as well for yourself and those four methods are really quick are the um rational the empirical
The pragmatic and the transcendental proofs right and no matter what form of proof you use each one is going to be interpretive and because it’s interpretive and no system of thought and belief is objective then the beliefs coming out of the system of belief say the Watchtower are going to be
Self-referential and so when they use an empirical proof they’re not validating something of whether or not it’s logically consistent or inconsistent they’re arguing from a position that if I’m going to find out whether or not it’s true I’m going to find out who I appeal to authority to tell me whether
Or not it’s true not my own rationality right so they can’t have a perception of whether or not this is still the true church even though they’ve been wrong this is still the true church even though their Bible has contradictions against Real interpretations from the Greek and Aramaic
So there’s and this is what I tried to bring up before too when I tried calling in one time to Sam shamon’s show and I tried to point out that you can’t just always win people over from Reading from the Bible because when you’re speaking to a Jehovah’s Witness
They don’t listen to any other Bible except the New World Translation and to use any other can lead to demonic interference or demonic possession or non- truths so you reading from the King James doesn’t matter and you also reading from the Watchtower produced Bible doesn’t matter either because
You’re outside of their religion so even when you read it you can’t have the perception on what John 111 means okay that’s how uh that’s that’s how that works so even when you’re using empiricism or empirical proofs and you’re using a pragmatic approach due to their empirical proofs and all their
Empirical proves are in their Watchtower Publications you you can’t you can’t come to a conclusion and and a meeting of the minds on this issue they won’t listen because you’re Unworthy of actually uh being able to interpret it okay so that’s where I am I I tried to emphasize especially to him that
Sometimes you just have to put that Bible down when you C you can’t have a meeting of the minds and use that that logic and reasoning and that’s of course the transcendental argument right is it is it possible that uh you’re incorrect in saying that after St Paul died nobody
Was a real Christian or there was no church and there were only a few Christians throughout history is it possible that Constantine did not create the Bible and that they crushed the truth of aryanism and introduced that Pagan uh trinitarianism because that’s what they believe just
Like a lot of other uh trinitarian uh Protestants it always comes down to Roman Catholicism is a Pagan religion because Constantine inserted the Pagan religion into the Empire and change what was the original Christianity that’s exactly what the witnesses think so how you going to argue with
Them about that when they won’t listen to anything outside of the Watchtower produced material right the Watchtower produced material is directed by the president and a board of directors of the corporation they call the governing body and it’s it’s like what we would look at is like the curia and so if it’s
Not approved by them they don’t want to hear it so the only way is to ask reasonable questions like this right and so that’s why I kind of encourage people to not try to um uh quote source and quote hunt and prove to them through their own Bible too much it gets
Into almost always especially my experience since leaving the witnesses I run into Witnesses and it always ends up turning into a a u a competition it’s better in my opinion to just use logic and reason ask them questions can you prove that you haven’t demonstrated that that’s exactly what happened and
Every single person I’ve challenged to produce documents regarding oh well Constantine did this trinitarianism is Pagan this and that and the other they can’t prove it and few of them come back but when they do come back it just turns into a lengthy discussion where well I
Can’t leave all my families in there right so um just know what you’re getting into ahead of time right so um the the implementation of some of those uh uh four methods of proving or uh four methods of producing proofs and of course we’ll go back to that again
That’s the rational the empirical the pragmatic and the transcendental arguments um anytime you’re going to do that you have to you have to measure whether or not that person is even open so you could start spurting off all kinds of scripture left and right but if they don’t listen it doesn’t matter
Right like for instance I shared in the um in the chat some some pictures I took of my Bible I still have and you can see it it’s got the leatherbound um it’s the New World Translation uh let’s see new world translation of the Holy scriptures revised Edition
1984 and um in there this is is the scripture that they would always use in saying to trinitarians in John 1:1 where they claim that they have the correct translation within context from Biblical Scholars but they never name who these biblical Scholars are so of course it
Says in the beginning the word was and the Word was with God and the Word was a god lowercase G right uh uh whenever I’ve actually produced this against the witnesses after spending many hours knocking on thousands of doors dealing with others that would try to refute us saying we change the
Bible and when they say we as Witnesses change the Bible they also are guilty of that too because most Protestants remove several seven books from the original Bible the Catholics produced so it’s kind of hypocritical but when they come across a reasonable approach while using
The scripture will uh uh will be able to trip them up that I’ve done that every single time and that is do you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God yes do you believe he was the Messiah yes do you believe he was a God no but your own
Bible says that he was a God so you believe in polytheism no we don’t and the last person that did that was last summer I about a year ago and it was an older man with a uh with a a yenta and uh she they come to the door and she’s
Doing all the talking so I say read in John 1:1 what your Bible says they refuse to and finally three or four times of me saying that in a row they open it up and when it got to a god the man who was reading it closed okay he is
A God okay well then you just establish that you believe in polytheism but that’s not what it means well what does it mean exactly so how we do what we talked about before presuppositional apologetics is to undermine the other person’s appeal to Authority first before you insert your arguments is
Proving that there’s logical inconsistencies in their appeal to Authority not just the arguments but in the appeal to Authority itself and since these people are SOL of scriptura as well when you undermine the inconsistencies within their own translation then you’re undermining their appeal to Authority and who produced that appeal to
Authority the governing body and the governing body has changed not only their Bible because they used to use the king James version right but they also Chang the prophecies the dates the time where Christ is coming and all those things so you’re undermining both their solar scriptura and the appeal to Authority
That produces it so when you go into also Isaiah 96 this is other this is another one um I put a screenshot or a pick in the chat and their translation of Isaiah 996 was oftentimes brought up to me as a witness as a kid
Um and I would always say no no no no no no Isaiah 96 refers to Jesus Christ as a mighty God but not almighty God but they would always say okay well let’s just use your Bible and not go to the other translations where it does say almighty
God or it does say Mighty God so I read straight from it where of course it says for there has been a child born to us there has been a son given to us and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder and his name will be called
Wonderful counselor Mighty God with a capital G Eternal Father Prince of Peace So when referring to Jesus Christ they still are in denial of the fact that their own translation in the New World Translation refers to him as mighty God not just Lord adoni But Mighty God and is connected to the
Divinity and eternal father is it obviously he’s connected to the Divinity as well Eternal Father is probably an improper translation but the the point is is that who is this Jesus Christ then if he’s not part of the Trinity if he’s not the second person of the godhead if he’s not
Attached to the Divinity and has an eternal existence and of course they think that he is Michael the AR Angel so if he’s St Michael the Archangel then he becomes the human person ofes Jesus Christ then he becomes St Michael the Archangel again and he’s
The one that will lead the armies in the battle of Armageddon as talked about in Revelation then there’s a there’s a there’s a problem there because not only is it logically inconsistent in that the nature of human and the nature of Angel changes and then changes back again it
It challenges the historical tradition of what Catholics Christians have taught since the beginning it has been widely held over long periods of time hundreds of years but it also challenges who and there’s many other scriptures besides this but it challenges him being directly tied to the Divinity we already
Know there’s tons of other proofs but between John 1:1 and Isaiah 96 it’s like a starting point to start hacking away at their uh indect ability of their Sol of scripture argument based on their their Bible right uh also what I shared in the chat
Um was a book that was produced uh first produced I have to check this but I I think it was first produced in 1879 and then there was other uh other versions that came out throughout the years that were even produced after Charles Russell died now Charles Russell
Started the whole shebang in about 1874 1875 started producing Zion’s Watchtower and the herald for heralding Fourth of Christ presence in the corner at the right if I remember right there was a crown with a cross going through it which is a freemasonic uh Knights Templar symbol
And remember their anti use of a cross that they say Christ didn’t die on a cross but died on a torture stake where his hands were straight up is a departure from the original images produced by Charles Russell and Rutherford early on so even the use of a
Cross let alone uh uh images of pyramidology uh other freemasonic symbols that were on the front of the Watchtower uh were used widely and then later abandoned and just like that with the divine plan of the ages so once Rutherford I’m sorry uh Russell got quite a few uh subscribers and became
Actually the most widely read non-denominational Christian publication that was unified by many sects against Catholicism they used all these freemasonic free freemasonic uh images such as coming to learn the divine plan of God through studying the pyramid and so he claimed he can interpret the entire Bible by using the uh cubits the
Measurements the height the breadth the width the depth of everything that was involved with the uh the pyramids Great Pyramid of Giza right and in in the chat I have a link I did link that um let’s see internet archive let’s see where did I go with that internet
Archive here it is there’s one with the internet archive showing the divine plan of the ages and on page three or four it starts showing uh the fold out that would talk about the dispensations and anybody that doesn’t understand dispensational theology uh people believe in that believe in dispensational theology believe the
Entire cific truth truth is revealed at each age and so they as witnesses as well as other other uh dispensational theology believers they believe that anybody that died before Christ went to heaven because they had Sal they had salvation within the truth that was given at that time that was then this is
Now right so this fold out shows um dispensation first before the flood the patriarchal age the Jewish age of the building of the Temple and uh the gospel age and of course it goes to the age of what they believe to be the last dispensation the third dispensation the Messianic agan that
Began they believe at 1914 regardless what they believe in this is all indicated he claimed uh starting from uh 1879 1880 and then in other revised editions up to 1920 where Rutherford after Russell died changed some things and you can see some of the the
The statements in here like in page 8 he says the Great Pyramid the testimony of God’s Stone witness and Prophet the Great Pyramid in Egypt so he was actually referring to God is the one that commanded the pyramid to be built before the flood that held the sacred
Secrets of truth from God as a stone Prophet that’s what Masons believe if anybody that studied about uh Masonry so regardless there’s a bunch of things that are written in here this is just one source of the early uh occult uh origins of Russell he’s buried in a freemasonic graveyard with the
Pyramid on his gravestone as well as the crown and the cross going through it that’s obviously proof but you talk to Witnesses about that now and they will tell you that the uh you’re not allowed to discuss that issue because the faithful and discreet servant which is talked
About by witnesses as being russle early on he was a faithful and discreet servant of God okay they don’t believe it’s a class at that time they believe it was a person then they believed it was Rutherford but then the governing body okay they believe he became an
Apostate for assigning himself too much glory and so forth so the founder of the religion is called an apostate in which you’re not supposed to read so if you’re a witness and you get at least when I was growing up and you read the divine plan of the ages Millions now living
Will never die and so forth you you you can actually get excommunicated they call it disfellowshipping because it’s no longer correct the light’s gotten brighter the truth then was not what you should be reading now so reading anything say in the 90s when I was around it before 1950
You can get in deep crap okay now you’re not supposed to read anything before I believe it’s 19 1990 I might be corrected on that it’s either 1980 or 1990 because again dispensational Theology and Enlightenment era philosophy teaches that the light gets brighter the accumulation of knowledge and that’s also an argument
That you could put against these people where if God reveals truth then truth can’t change and Truth although not in its entirety cannot be false from before it’s like taking the totality of a car you can’t say the wheel are incorrect the steering wheel the seats and the
Engine are incorrect but just because you didn’t have the transmission it wasn’t drivable no they say that no that’s not a proper engine the engine is wrong the body is wrong the seats were wrong the wheels are wrong right that’s the same illustration here so they’re saying that you can’t
Even read because it’s poisonous can’t even read it so that’s not true I mean God can reveal truth then but then it is foundational and he can add to that truth later on like learning about the Messiah we knew he would come from the seed of the woman we
Knew there would be a seed that would be uh of the serpent that would have God would Place enmity between them and that he would also come through the line of David he been born in Bethlehem he’ll do all these wonderful things he’ll be pierced he’ll die and be raised from the
Dead as as Isaiah talks about 53 so we know for a fact those were truths but we didn’t know about entirely know about the Trinity or exactly how everything would go down so uh that’s not what they believe they they believe the truth that was from before cross no we can’t do the
Cross Christmas yeah we did Christmas no no longer Christmas right end of the world 1914 no it was just the beginning of the end times Generations or generation no it’s generations and of course I also shared in the chat um a publication I don’t know if
This is the first edition but it was copyrighted the 1920 of millions now living will never die and we discussed that before that those that were living at the time of age and reason upon the heralding of Christ’s presence in 1914 uh that’s that’s that’s the group of people that would witness before
Their death the return of Christ and the Judgment of those whether it’s life or death would see it so those that were Millions now living that saw those things would then be wisped away into the new heavens and new earth so uh those are just a a few arguments
Proving uh the foundational arguments of their entire belief system are built on Sand like Christ said not built on Firm Foundation where the storm comes and washes it away they they don’t have a consistency in their belief over the past hund and whatever it is 50 years and since it keeps changing and
Their dispensational theology position allows the light to get brighter they also cause a lot of people to leave every time they do change it which is about every 15 to 20 years and every time a false prophecy an expose of of some Scandal goes on somebody’s abone
Money U when I was a kid and around 95 I think it was I found out that the great Satan that they referred to as the United Nations that were supposed to get out of her Babylon the gra flee from her they actually were paying a lot of money
To be a n a non-governmental organization an NGO and because they were paying that they paid it in order to have access to other countries to spread the religion but it didn’t matter because when we found out that even though it was a political reason to do that we’re
Supposed to get away from every part don’t touch any part of the world and Babylon the Great and the false religions of the world yet you were paying as a member to be an NGO of the United Nations it scandalized so many people I grew up with it was it was it
Wasn’t even funny I mean we were all very active we believe this was the truth in fact Witnesses when they ask you if you’re a witness they don’t say are you a witness they say are you in the truth he fell out of the truth has he
Come to the truth we actually believe that so when things like this get brought forward and we have access in the digital age of everything that we can access now um in your own free time without some Elder hovering over your shoulder to tell you you can’t tell what
You’re reading here let me explain to you what you’re reading here then uh you can figure stuff out super quick so that’s that anyway that’s my experience and that’s kind of a I open it up for questions if you want um but the approach in my opinion the approach
Can touch on disproving their method of an appeal to Authority within their solar scripture and within their Watchtower organization and you can very make it very clear that if they didn’t have truth then then God can’t be with them if God is with them and they gave he
Gave truth to them at that time then that truth can never fail or be wrong therefore if it’s wrong it’s not truth oh but now you have the truth well how do we know it’s not wrong like it was before or is replaceable it has to be successively foundational and connected
And congruent not in congruent congruent with truth revealed before that’s the only way that you can have a similitude to dispensational theology it just means that you’re given more and more and more until the complete puzzle is there they think oh no we’ll just throw out the previous and
Now we’re going to have something brand new so it’s an entirely brand new religion it’s not even the same religion Millions out living doesn’t apply right divine plan of the ages and finding the stone witness in the pyramid is a freemasonic pagan idea it’s it’s it’s not even the same religion so when
You join the witnesses and you’re talking to others you’re trying to get to leave the witnesses don’t just go straight to Trinity don’t just go straight because they believe that’s Pagan don’t just go straight to proving to them uh that Christ was nailed to a cross has prophesied don’t do all these other
Things you’re trying to insert a post where the fence post that you want to place it into the hole is still occupied by the fence post that they believe in you have to remove what they believe in first so uh yeah so we can open discussion and and any questions and I
Probably have about another 15 to 20 minutes so go ahead guys the one thing that that became very um instrumental when I went at one of them uh was was I was listening to see where they had a weakness in their armor and they one of them said well we don’t
Sin anymore and then I just pointed them directly to I think it’s first John first uh verse uh first chapter verse eight where it says we all sin and whoever says that are sin or or like demons or something like that I can’t remember I’m kind of paraphrasing that
Verse but and after that I haven’t been invited back to their home right well I will admit this because I grew up in it um they are very very very strict on their moral virtues they’re very much like traditional Catholics or Puritan Protestants um it it is a rare thing
Although at least when I was growing up um when the fervor was still hot it’s not like it is now um it was a rare thing to hear about uh adultery or sleeping around I mean if you’re there if you leave it you just go do what you want you know but um
At least it wasn’t known publicly a lot I’m sure there was a lot of things I’m Not Looking Back In in Rosy color glasses and being naive the rate at which it happened was much less than the average um group of people let’s just say the secular society the degeneracy
That we see today if if you walked back in time and went to uh Jehovah’s Witness uh Kingdom Hall for about a year in Georgia and Tennessee and anywhere back in the 70s or 80s You’ probably be pretty impressed in how chased a lot of
The uh the kids are a lot of the adults are too so uh yeah anybody claiming that is just full of it obviously but um I think probably what they mean is that they they really try to uh you know G their loins avoid occasions for sin and and so forth so
They they really do try with that do they always do it no do Catholics and Protestants Orthodox no uh Leon did you have any other questions I know this was uh your your subject you wanted to talk about so necessarily I’m just I’m trying to
Think of how it’s going to go for the conversation that I’m going to have essentially and I don’t know it’s almost like where where would be the starting point really for refuting it but then again there’s there’s not the question that’s asked by them the statement made by them in order
To refute it so and they have have they approached you or did you approach them they approached us and then they had said that they’ come back and and talk more and so so that’s what we’re waiting on so it’s like I don’t even know where
They’re going to start or where I should start per se to try to refute them on things it’s important early in the conversation with these people to take the lead so they think that God’s directing them to come and convert you so the holy spirit is upon them they
Believe to convert you and so their purpose is not to be preached at but to preach that’s what they believe and they get really offended if you try to take the primary position so don’t lead them on by listening to their diet tribe because they’ll just go on for a half
Hour thinking that you’re listening it’s important that you understand that up front just say Let me let me just ask you a couple questions up front and you could just start with that people love being asked questions because most people love espousing their their opinions about things which are
Arbitrary especially when you’re talking to Jehovah’s Witnesses so when you ask them a question just ask them simple things that the average housewife Jehovah’s Witness door knocker or the average uh you know elder or whatever single young man’s going to uh answer and that is what is
Truth not what you think truth is what is truth and when they you know come up with their own it doesn’t matter what they say your your job is to direct them towards a definitive explanation you can use a Webster you can use a historical uh Catholic Oxford dictionary whatever
And obviously truth is going to be something that is proven to be true and not contradictory logically consistent and so forth so when you guys refer to yourselves as being in the truth has has what you uh learned and taught ever been false right and of course they’re going
To say no but then you can prove to them well what about this and what about that some of the things we’ve talked about well we can correct it but they’re going to say the like it’ss brighter does the light from before get brighter or is it false
Light well if it’s false light then it’s not truth it’s Darkness because truth just like evil is the privation of fals Ood so if it’s false and poisonous then it’s not truth right so has the watch toow ever produce falsehood intentionally what does Millions not living never mean living never die mean
What does the divine plan of the ages mean is a stone witness what is uh you know anything I mean you could there’s tons of other things I didn’t even bring up Rutherford talked about once once there was a mass defection they lost like a third or half of their members
After uh Russell was a hero for for predicting the 1914 and when World War I broke out everybody thought oh my goodness the only Christian preacher in the world is talking about the arrival of Christ presence and calamity’s beginning in 1914 was Russell with his whole Watchtower thing and when that
Happened he was like a rock star but then he went off and he started saying things like the end of the world 1917 this and that the other um and when that didn’t happen tons of people left false prophet because that’s exactly what uh the false prophecy uh uh declarations are
Um let’s see Deuteronomy 18:22 makes it clear when a f when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord if the word does not come to pass or come true this is a word that the Lord has not spoken the prophet has spoken it presumptuously you
You need not be afraid of him English Standard Version New World or New Living Translation need not be feared need not be alarmed do not be afraid of him others say be Cast Away right so in other words if if it doesn’t come to pass it didn’t come from
God now that was used against me over the period of many years of doing that and I would ignore it out of obstinance because the implications of me leaving especially as a teenagers is like I can’t leave my whole family is all my relatives all my friends are here so
They start plugging their ears off so starting off the conversation and gauging whether or not they’re going to listen early on we’ll save both of you a lot of time right because if they’re going to be converted to your way of thinking it’s not you doing it it’s God doing it
You can only convince them to shut their mouth regarding the particulars that they’re arguing from right so don’t just don’t get roped into the idea that because they stay there for an hour or two hours that somehow you’re winning them over that’s not the case they’re just looking for
Ways of getting around you so that they can win you over that’s their whole premise so you’ll know whether or not they’re they’re receptive if they’re willing to listen if you start putting forth things like you call Jesus Christ a God and they’re they start rumaging
And they get all upset and we didn’t come here to be preached out I get that all the time then you know they’re not going to listen to anything okay if it touches their heart it’s not you touching their heart it’s it’s the Holy Ghost touching their heart so when you
Present arguments like that you you you gauge the reaction if it’s positive well yeah that may be true and then you start putting forth other things you just build upon that you get up to the next rung in the ladder and the next rung you just have to measure how they
React it’s just going to save you a lot of time bro otherwise they going to be a time Vampire yeah for sure I don’t want any of that either yeah right yeah we’ll stay on for a few more minutes um uh I mean I you have obviously you
Have more than enough context you have more than enough uh in Your Arsenal to be able to argue from a logical transcendental argument you know such as like for instance what is truth it can’t be contradictory it can’t be false therefore that that would be a transcedental proof right the empirical
Proves are disproving their printed materials as being the word of God sent forth by the governing body which they believe to be the faithful and discreet servant class the anointed right and the rational proves of course are in conne connection to this argument is of course um can they discern whether
Or not can you discern when you read the Watchtower can you discern because you you’re not allowed to read the King James you’re not allowed to read the DU RS the the Greeks Interlinear unless it’s approved by the Jehovah’s Witnesses so uh I don’t know how they handle it
Now but that means only a witness reading the New World Translation can give forth truth and can transl but they themselves don’t have the rationality to be able to do that the faculty within their person they only can refer to what the faithful and discreet servant class the shepherding class has allowed them
To teach so even when they argue their own position they’re not doing it out of their own rationality so you you can also Pro to them that they don’t even have the ability or authority to be able to interpret that that’s another argument but but knowing that too you’ll also
Save yourself from them closing the ears up because like like I said earlier that’s what I was trying to get uh Sam and and many other people to understand before he turned into a psychopath you can’t always reason from scriptures with these people because they themselves don’t even believe you
Have the authority to open that up let alone read from it let alone interpret it and so forth yeah that’s crazy yeah it’s like okay so how do you even argue them at that point you know what I mean it’s like you’re not go ahead sir well that’s what we
Have with within the uh traditional catholic circles too though a lot of the traditional catholic circles run into the situation where it’s like well you don’t have the authority to discern whether or not the Pope is preaching heresies and then they become legalists where they say well it’s not been
Declared to be so by the curia but can you declare whether or not an average lay person is committing uh like Gary Voris if he’s committing a moral s mortal sin or if he is preaching heresy I can determine that yeah so you have perception to be able to see heresies
When they’re they’re said from somebody’s own mouth Yes but you can’t do so from the so then it turn then it gets back to the argument we talked about before where St John of Damascus brings out and that is some people say you have no perception that’s so he was
Referring to he was he was disproving to others that uh that perception can only be discerned by one person or a few people or uh maybe only God himself when actually that’s a faculty in potentia that all of us have within human nature it’s the holy ghost that activates us to
Be able to have that perception though but how do we know know that that’s being activated properly how do you know if something is true by whether or not it is true it sounds contradictory but it’s not how do you know something is true by whether or not it is true well
That’s circular no it’s not actually because our worldview is that we have Truth at a starting point that’s been revealed platonism which is pretty much everything outside of Catholicism believes that we can intu it knowledge and gather Enlightenment era we can gather and move clo gather knowledge and
Move closer to that truth over a period of time so nothing has a starting point outside of Catholic uh uh uh knowledge let’s just say right we have revealed truths both Adam and Eve Patriarchs prophets Christ himself and so when we have Christ revealing further truths and the Holy Ghost revealing truth through
The Saints and church fathers and councils and so forth then we know that’s being revealed so how do we know something is true by whether or not it’s true so if I come out and I say something like um Jesus didn’t walk on water baptism is not necessary there is no
Trinity well how do I know that’s true because we already know what’s been revealed and what’s been reaffirmed and it can’t contradict therefore if I contradict what is already established to be true then it’s not true so how do we know something is true by whether or not it is
True and that’s why we cannot accept any reinterpretation of all these things it’s just like how uh anybody brings you forth a new gospel he should be a anathema so when the church says you have to be a baptized Catholic to be saved with very few exceptions and
Somebody comes along and says no you don’t we interpreted that wrong like Benedict said well then you’re you’re in a you’re in a quandry here you have the perception to understand that whether or not something is true because have with your own two eyes the ability to read well what did the
Church Teach as truth before well then you’re not reading it right I’ll interpret it for you because only one person has that perception and that’s the living magisterium everybody else has to do what I say because each living magisterium has a different dispensation for each age that’s exactly what
Benedict said in his encyclical that’s false sorry wrong sell it someplace else exactly yeah right so I I’m I’m probably not going to I’ll probably edit this section out this is just our discussion in this group here but what I stated earlier uh hopefully that helps a lot of other guys
That are running into this issue um just don’t let them put you back on your heels they won’t be able to put you back in your heels logically with your knowledge with everything else but they can do it through a subversive tactics one of which of course is just
Overbearing with you shock and argumentation they’re going to try to bring all these you know Watchtower published articles and quote from them but more than anything they need to keep the tap dance going so with without leaving any breath in between you can’t insert an objection without appearing
Rude right right right so being an alpha and respectful but be an alpha and just say let me just ask you a question before we get started right it could be like that you know so anyway if that’s it um we could probably cut the recording and then just post this in the
Chat discuss something else real quick I mean yeah yeah you you covered pretty much everything I I needed to go so yeah it’s I’m I’m pretty much uh just waiting for her waiting for the moment they come back and don’t don’t yeah just as the
Last thing I said this to Jay Dyer a long time ago you’re making a huge mistake discounting the influence that Jehovah’s Witnesses have okay you say that there’re are non issue so you shouldn’t have to waste any time with them they don’t have any power but my
Argument to him a long time ago was yeah but the the the Orthodox only account for 50,000 in America alone if you’re talking about just America they don’t have any power either but you spend an inordinate am of time trying to prove them as the correct position they not
Only don’t have any spiritual power because they’re divided and you got the uh the go Arch Archbishop walking with anti for black lives matter and then giv the theuk to uh non-believing um spouses of Orthodox Believers but uh you don’t have any political power either you don’t
Have any money I mean goarch has some money but I mean not in comparison to the kind of money that the the the Watchtower bible and track Society they have billions and billions of dollars I’m not even joking when I say that between real estate wealth that they’ve
Had since the late 1800s publishing the money they make from that internationally it’s huge contributions because they do tying so to write them off is yeah and they they account for literally millions in the United States alone like six or seven million like active regular attendees so there’s a huge pole of
People that you can grab from for conversion and to say that they don’t have any power they’re an non entity they’re more organized than uh tra all traditional Catholic orders and and Orthodox combined in America right is that UniFi the o I didn’t there’s only uh 50,000 people in America that are
Orthodox that small it’s pretty small man if if I’m wrong on that it would probably be closer to like a hundred but but it’s nowhere’s near the Catholic and Protestant denominations yeah it’s it’s so small that’s what I’m saying it’s kind of hypocritical well because according to
All like the zigger and stuff like you know like occasionally like I’ll watch Sam Hy’s thing and like all the people it’s probably just people laring and it’s like they’re like some dumbass will queue in with like oh I met this girl and like she’s Orthodox and it’s like I don’t know it
Seems more of like the uh people leave and go to it more for the aesthetic because they they managed to keep that as the the aesthetic but there’s a lot of people that go to Orthodox temporarily just to say they went there and claimed to be Orthodox
Exactly and they do that with with Catholics too we found that out chats y because it sounds badass you know you’re you’re somehow connected to the knights the original nights and the original Crusades and they put up memes and stuff but they don’t you know they don’t live the life
Living the life is tough man I mean we don’t go to the multiple meetings a week like the Jehovah’s Witnesses do on a regular basis I’m I’m talking about a Spartan life being no part of the world not associating with other kids not doing Christmas any of
The holidays no Christmas present guys I never got that grown up okay and you have to knock on doors even as a kid day in day out nonstop it’s definitely um it’s definitely commendable to a sense like there like you said there is a little bit of that uh respect there but
Yeah ultimately they they’re outside of the truth so right right so that when you have somebody like that that’s a well oiled machine and a person that’s part of that like a soldier marching um with an entire Army of people that say the same thing think the same thing do the same
Thing um it’s almost an impenetrable force to get into their psyche again because the implications of leaving that order in their life is is pretty huge man so you first have to start knocking away at what their perceived order in their life really is based on that’s it you
Can’t say what they’re doing is is not commendable everybody that runs into Witnesses and sees how organized they are how unified they are they don’t have the splintering there’s no splintering if you start going out and saying hey maybe we were wrong about aryanism uh
Maybe there is a trinity you will be out flat on your ass before you can blink period uh I don’t believe the president of the Watchtower bible track Society is correct he’s wrong on this he’s wrong on that maybe the Watchtower is not right maybe they preach falsehoods before and
There you’ll be disfellowshipped excommunicated right they don’t [ __ ] around right it’s not like you know yeah and so I guess that’s the the next question I’d have is okay where where do I uh draw the line there of yeah this isn’t getting anywhere I guess based on
Time if I’m there longer than an hour or so and it just feels like I’m spinning wheels yeah just gonna tell them to get get out I guess right I would always set forth the time and say I got about an hour and then I have to be somewhere
Afterwards right and if it goes well you could just say hey let me let me see if I can postpone my next meeting or something like that but never give them an open check a blank check ever right all right don’t ever do that I mean that’s with apologetics that’s with business
That’s with girls that’s with anything never give anybody a blank check right un unless you get married and then you know that’s on she’s your wife that’s yeah yeah yeah yeah but I mean in general there’s always a holding back a little bit you got to hold just
For your own sanity yeah I would just say up front if they say if they if if they want to do their whole Spiel after you ask a few questions then just sit there and listen but get the questions asked and answered first right if they’re amiable and they answer your
Questions then that’s good if they don’t answer your questions they’re just going to be [ __ ] they’re just there to remember they got to record their time they’re just trying to keep the the clock going so they can keep their time stamp going yeah exactly huh but if they
Stay for an hour remember uh I said this before get information don’t give information right so while you’re listening to them listen to what they’re saying and that they’re saying you know this is the one the one true Faith God’s True Religion God’s organ they say Jehovah’s organization the truth is what
They say has it always been God’s organization has it always been Jehovah’s organization has God has always been with it where does he where do these truths come from if these truths are dispensed from your Watchtower bible and track Society why have they been wrong in the past that
Pisses some people off instead of saying that you could ask have they ever been wrong what about this they’ve never been wrong oh what about this oh the lights get light gets brighter and you go back to the argument we already talked about so I mean you have the upper hand
Obviously we have the truth we have the real the truth and we have logic and read I mean I I just find it so crazy that more Catholics don’t do more public apy atics we have nothing to fear yeah exactly yeah other than oh your pope is
Gay your pope is gay your pope is gay your pope is gay I mean we’re not talking about people and individuals we’re talking about the actual teachings and the and the dogmas themselves okay [ __ ] oh the pope is gay the pope is gay and the enemy knows what he’s doing
So when he gets everybody believing that they don’t want to hear it I mean I don’t want to become Catholic because of that so that’s why yet again that’s why I always against the Nova sordo to distance denounce be no part of know your your you know [ __ ] ble
Couple blessings gay couple blessings everything else that’s all it’s in the minds of these people you don’t hear that okay well if we’re going to go arbitrary and you’re going to go ad hom him let me just go against you then did you know that Russell died of
Syphilis his wife left him because she couldn’t stand him anymore either declaring that he was the faithful and discreet servant oh really yeah he went through a divorce yeah he died on a train all the way out to San Diego why San Diego why Southern California because he wanted to build a
House just like Rutherford fulfilled that wish even though he called him a heretic apostate there’s a house built out in San Diego in Southern California I forgot what was called some uh Hebrew name but they belied that the prophets were going to appear and he was going to host them Isaiah Hezekiah Jeremiah
Right Moses they were going to manifest Elijah and they were going to be present in this house he was gonna party yeah they’re gonna they’re gonna party the house is still there you can still see it it’s a historic house it’s crazy I’ve just I’ve never even never even heard
Any of this before like right with the white line come on man how how did Russell get syus right yeah she told me right if if the prophets are rich men of of renown then you know what they’re going to do you know what the car salesmen do down
There so um yeah that’s that’s that’s some crazy stuff man so you can just if so so what you’re telling us is we have to accuse them or that they’re founder was going to try and uh Coke up the prophets is that what’s going on yes
Pretty much pretty much so so it’s not just it’s not just the ancient time what about the modern time start bringing up all the sex scandals start bringing how many people not only were were raped for a long period of time as kids but also how the Watchtower covered it up and
Paid people to shut up the parrots themselves paid them to shut up I mean we see that happen in the Catholic church but you want to start slinging mud we could start slinging mud okay because if you can’t stand the fact that your religion is totally [ __ ] contradictory and has changed at least
The Catholic Church hasn’t changed only with these gets in Rome right now trying to change it exactly the witnesses have no consistency L literally every 10 to 20 years it’s completely new religion why don’t you guys do Christmas anymore why don’t you use a cross
Anymore I mean why do why do you cover up why does Watchtower have billions of dollars covering up every single year they have to pay out well Millions I would say why were you guys part of the uh United Nations NGO I mean you have so much dude it’s just incredible you start
Asking them questions like that so that to me that that only comes up when when they start ad homing you know Catholics so right exactly anyway save it for right on yeah I got a boogie but um I’ll post the whole recording up in here and then
Uh we’ll we’ll chop up the first half and make it available so people can use it and spread it around so awesome yep that works for me I appreciate it very much of course right on brother hey guys absolutely
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