Okay friends we are having our third ever uh Exiles in Babylon conference April 18th through the 20th and boisey Idaho you can attend virtually or attend live uh space is filling up so if you do want to attend live I would uh highly recommend registering sooner than later
At Theology and the.com that’s Theology and ra.com we are going to tackle a bunch of really important and tough topics we’re going to talk about deconstruction reconstruction and the gospel why are people deconstructing from their former Evangelical faith we have Abigail fali Amin Hudson Tim Whitaker from the new evangelicals and
Evan Wickham who are going to be uh dialoguing about that topic we also are going to talk uh cover the extremely important and very um sensitive topic of women power and abuse in the church we have Julie Slattery uh Sandy RoR Tiffany bloom Lori C addressing that super
Important topic we’re also going to tackle lgbtq people in the church with Greg koh’s Brena Blaine art perea and Cat laprairie and we also of course going to dagle politics three Christian views of politics where we’re going to have a left leaning Christian a right-leaning Christian and a non-
Leaning and a Baptist dis Christian uh who are going to we’re going to put them in dialogue together and and and hash some things out so we have Brian Zan representing that middle non-pos whatever uh Chris Butler left leaning Christian Joy Mosley right leaning Christian we’re also going to have Max
Leo there we’re going to have a joint podcast with Amin Hudson from the Southside Rabbi podcast along with YouTube s ation um rouson and of course we’re going to have Street hymns there throughout the conference making everybody uncomfortable so oh oh yeah and of course worship with Evan Wickham
And Tena W I cannot wait this is going to be a barn burner folks I am working extremely hard to get canceled this year so this might be the last it won’t be well who knows we’ll see um yeah it’s G it’s gonna it’s going to be engaging
It’s going to be I I think helpful and profitable and uncomfortable and encouraging and challenging and convicting and and all all those fun things so go to theology raw.com register sooner than later that’s theology intheraw.com I will see you in April hey friends welcome back to another episode of theology raw my guest
Today is my very good friend uh Evan Wickham Evan is a worship leader songwriter speaker and Lead pastor of Park Hill Church in San Diego California which he co-founded with his wife Sandy um uh in addition to helping people encounter Jesus Through teaching uh and meaningful rooted worship experiences he
Has released four worship or four albums of worship songs several of which are sng across the world Evan holds an MD from Western Seminary and I brought Evan on because of all as I say at the beginning of this conversation of all the churches I know that are doing a very good
Job um embracing and celebrating the historically Christian uh sexual ethic and marriage ethic and and are very uh bold about their uh and passionate about their beliefs um regarding marriage and sexuality I I’ve never seen well I I know lots of churches are doing a really
Good job uh but Evan is just doing an exceptional job Evan and his leadership team and and everybody at Park Hill Church are doing an exceptional job at including welcoming including and celebrating lgbtq or samesex attracted people within that historically Christian framework um they haven’t done everything perfectly
They’d be the first ones to say that but man they they’ve done some really incredible things as a church to be a Jesus centered welcoming Church an inclusive church for lgbtq people within a um a very clear and well articulated historically Christian view of marriage and sexuality sorry about Evan on to
Talk about that what does that look like I get that as that question all the time hey we uh want to welcome LGBT people in the church we want to reach out to people who have been especially marginalized and hurt by the church and LG BT people are are absolutely within
That category on the whole and we also believe what the Bible says about marriage and sexuality how do we do both how do we uphold for lack of better terms both the truth about marriage and the great and embody the grace of Jesus towards those who have maybe not
Experience that in the church and that’s what Evan’s here to talk about I’m excited for you to listen to this conversation Evan’s a delightful human being and shares with us a ton of wisdom pastoral wisdom uh from his own lived experience as a pastor of a um of an
Awesome church so please welcome to the show back for I don’t know how many times you’ve been on please welcome back to the show The One and Only Evan Wickham pastor Evan Wickham welcome back to theology ra I don’t know what number this is for you but it’s been uh it’s
Been a few a few times how are you doing good to be back my friend doing good you look good you too clean you cleaned up yeah yeah I took I took the the grizzly Adam spear down all the almost all the way you had that going for a while
Though right you you for a couple years at least yeah my wife Sandy was like Keep It Coming does she like it she she like did she did but apparently hit it it hit a limit and she she’s like it is [Laughter] time it was really long you dragging down on my
Shirt it got pretty gr too right I feel like if I grew a beard it would be it would it would definitely age me um that’s why why I keep it down a little bit it was salt and pepper for sure yeah so I he I get ask all the time you know
When I’m I’ll you know I travel around quite a bit and speak at different churches on LGBT stuff um and more and more I me I get I’ve always gotten this question but more and more I’m getting it like can you give us some examples of churches that are doing it
Well who hold uh passionately and clearly to Orthodox Christian beliefs about marriage and sexuality and yet also are embodying this kind of radical love care empowerment humble posture however you want you a radical uh posture of inclusion within a historically Christian framework do you know anybody doing that well and your
Church you and your church it’s not your church right right but you planted you you and Jesus planted it um I said Park Park yeah sorry I’m working on my mutualism yes yes yes mutualism um I said Park Hill in uh San Diego is um one of the reasons why I recommend
You guys because you you all you and the whole leaders would be the first one to say we’ve made many mistakes um but you guys are pushing in and unashamed un shambly and courageously doing many things to include LGBT samex attracted Christians into your community in ways that are I think
Completely Orthodox um and also extremely compassionate gracious so um thanks yeah that’s what we want to talk about so what’s let’s go back to the beginning you plan the chur how old is the church when did you guys plan it and then my my follow-up question around the heels of that
Is why why why it’s not really the best church planning strategy to be very public and visible about Desiring to include LGBT people in your church um I’m sure you’ve taken some hits there so yeah how was the church and then when did this passion come in come into view
Yeah well we’re recording this the week before Christmas and Christmas Eve 2023 will be six years as a church in s Diego so we launched on Christmas Eve 2017 and we were sent by a family of churches up in Portland um the comr family John Mark
And his his dad and mom Phil and Diane they they planted this church family gave us a vision for church that just sank deep into our bones and um so we moved up from San Diego to Portland to kind of absorb their vision and DNA for
For church planning we came back down in 2017 implanted we’ve been going six years and I I wouldn’t I I mean praise God for the way he has used not just our church but many churches that we are now in fellowship with to be beacons of Hope and inclusion for uh people who
Experience sexuality in a minority way and it’s again it’s in not just inclusion but like an invitation into full obedience to Jesus in accordance with historic Orthodoxy like and you know and your listeners know how how you talk about this like Christian Orthodoxy includes marriage which is a lifelong
Covenant part whole person bond between one man and one woman two sexually different persons and all sex outside of that Arrangement and before that Arrangement is what the New Testament and the Greek translation of the Old Testament call pornea sexual moralities it’s junk drawer word so everyone in
Some way shape or form has dabbled in pornea whether in mind or in body and so the church is a place you come and repent of that sin and receive inclusion in the body of Christ no matter what your previous identity was and no matter what identities you bring into the
Church that they all become secondary to your primary identity as beloved son or daughter of God that’s the new primary identity what whatever identity you have becomes distant second to that and so that’s that is what we’ve preached and we haven’t we haven’t preached that spefic specifically because we want to
Be like this church for gay people or something and uh it’s it’s church for all like all people like when we did the webinar for your Center for faith on this with me and Greg pikin a celibate gay guy who’s a pastor at our church um
Uh the title of the webinar was creating a healthy church for lgbtq people and right away um my goal in that webinar was to make explicit what does that mean simply put I believe a health healthy church for lgbtq people will be a healthy church for every kind of person because healthy absolutely
Assumes Orthodoxy a healthy church is an Orthodox Church um and and then that second part healthy church for lgbtq people lgbtq people assumes that they exist like they actually are they exist lgbq people exist and uh and and wondering man what does the church think of me what does God think
Of me Hillcrest one of the gayest parts of America you know was like 10-minute bike ride from my house and uh like what like you I think you you break you bring up the Marin project the disproportionately large percentage of lgbq Americans have have a history with within evangelicalism in some way yeah
Yeah and and so man um how do we move toward them how what does that look like and I believe it it looks like number one not compromising on Holiness I love what David Bennett says like it’s a tension between radical commitment to Holiness and inclusion that tension is the is is The
Sweet Spot of Jesus I mean that’s just Jesus and all for gospels so I agree I think the Assumption in a lot of people’s minds is if you are radically passionate about Holiness and even saying everything you said that therefore you are going to be a turnoff
To LGBT people you’re going to exclude not include because you’re um you’re so committed to what some people would say a very kind of narrow outdated some men even say you know homophobic or bigoted sexual ethic you know and if you you can believe that but if you’re like publicly like not ashamed
That this is what we believe and we’re all striving toward this imperfectly then gay lesbian people are going to say I don’t I don’t want to be a part of that you’ve it’s been the opposite for you though you have dozens I’ve been to your chur it dozens of people who are
Attracted to the same sex have a I I like your term a minority sexual um experience or or experience with their biological sex um do you do you have a number I mean I think it’s a few dozen or I mean there there’s the people that
Are least visible and and and hang out together and have shared their Story I mean it’s at least a couple dozen um I would I would say that that’s accurate and I the the the couple does in part is accurate I definitely think that there’s been both reactions okay yeah there’s
Been plenty plenty of lgbtq folks that have heard us give our our welcome to the church class in order to be part of a community group you got to go through Basics class where we are deadly clear on our commitment to uh the the way the doctrines and ethics of the
Historic Body of Christ u not just what we believe about God like Trinity Jesus Is God man crucified rose from the dead ascended at the right hand of father but also like the life that that gives birth to in truly saved children of God and that includes marriage and singleness
And marriage is one man one woman singleness is everyone I mean you yeah I’m liter like you’re your your work has shaped me in so many ways I’m just you know boots on the ground pastoring a church with it and um and so when we give that at our Basics class we’ve had
Uh kind of countless people popped out okay um just because yeah because they feel you know what’s the can you can you give us some anecdotal like story like is it are they visibly right there like what in the world or are they like oh
I’m not sure I can get on board with that is it all the above like wait what’s that experience been like when people are are like oh gosh I don’t want to be a part of that J yeah well we kind of really set up as best as we can an
Environment of hospitable safety and like welcome for the deepest darkest questions to Bubble to the surface in that class so uh in our basis class it’s basically 3 hours with the big break in the middle and at the end it’s live Q&A you can text in your questions
Anonymously to the screen just slido and people so people can be anonymous which makes their questions raw and and and public so so they’re like oh these leaders aren’t afraid and so we get all the questions uh um all the questions you can imagine and we just answer them pastorally um
And uh yeah I think people are able to find out what they are look find what they’re looking for in a pastoral answer and then commit or not show up again quietly and so the key is to be clear up front like you know the whole clear is
Kind unclear is unkind thing yeah you just commit to deadly Clarity Clarity upfront um and uh and just is that a reac is that a reaction against the kind of bait and switch we’ve seen in the last several years some very welcoming a lot of times it’s a mega church
That it’s almost like an over um overcorrection maybe of the past where people are like so inyour face about all the minutia of all every belief they have you know and it was just kind of a turn like it’s just like let people experience uh the the kingdom of God let
People worship and and and and not just frontload all this ethical stuff the counter reaction has been I think at least several churches I’m thinking of you know that like they you could be at the church for years and not even know what they believe about marriage and sexuality and then when
People get so embedded in the church environment and then have given thousands of dollars of tithe money come to find out when they get engaged to their samesex partner and they want to Pastor to do their marriage like oh yeah we don’t we believe that’s sin you know
Like wait a minute I’ve been here four years and I didn’t even so anyway there there’s just been this counter reaction that has led this bait and switch which has really done a lot of damage to yeah and that’s a mistake that’s a mistake we made and you said four years that’s
Exactly the mistake that we made and we heard can you talk about that yeah yeah I I can I can keep Anonymous but I mean it’s our is my I own it as you know uh primary teaching voice in our community I own my lack of clarity in the
Beginning of our church plant like we okay we would say things that were true like this is a church for all people and all are welcome come to Jesus let’s explore Jesus because be a church in the city just broad statements and in in the beginning we did not have a Basics class
We did not have this this Moment of clarity where people knew everything they needed to know in order to commit without significant surprises down the road we didn’t have that and so there was this couple that jumped in in the first couple months back in late 2017 um and they started serving they
Would show up for prayer meetings first they would be the last person out of the room tearing down our setup tear down church services and then um couple years in they we were going through like Ephesians or Colossians where Paul has pornea in a long list of activities and
And mindsets that do not inherit the kingdom and they’re like oh um I thought this church was affirming or just at least squishy like just kind of work it out in the in between agree to disagree moments that kind of church um and they’re like we can work with that because they were
Affirming from the beginning I never knew that and they found out we the church leadership was not and um and so we started putting clarifying systems in place and we introduced that too late for them and and we had all our leaders take kind of an assess that we thought was
Like an innocuous just alignment like hey where you at spiritually where you at emotionally and also do you still agree with the doctrines of the church and they answered honestly they answered with full integrity and I honored them for that these leaders that were leading people in their house they never once
Taught their affirming position in their Church community group they honored as soon as they found out the beliefs of the elders that were Orthodox they they just committed we’re never going to teach our unorthodox position we’re going to honor the elders but they the M themselves passionately believed in uh
Affirming theology Is This A Gay a gay couple or straight no no they’re a straight couple that that uh that just are affirming and uh and and so we brought us we brought in we introduced a system like hey all our community leaders anyone that like exercises shepherding authority over people in our
Church we now require agreement in life and in Doctrine so belief and practice and they’re like oh shoot and they’re like okay well here here’s the moment of here’s the watershed moment for us I wonder if we’re gonna get kicked out I wonder if we’re gonna
What’s gonna happen to us yeah but they they answered honestly in an assessment that they got three years into their serving which is so un like so hard for them yeah and and I own that like that’s on me and our team but it’s also part of building like
Planting a church organically and it grows and it needs a little bit more order so that’s that’s hard man that’s I I yeah I I know several like organizations and churches that are kind of facing the same thing saying we’ve always believed these things but we
Never made it like a requirement but now we feel like we need to as we move forward we need to have everybody on staff or volunteering or in leadership position to be on the same page and so now it’s it’s the same situation it’s like but we if we come out with this
There’s going to be people that have been leading who are not going to be to sign this and then they’re in a really hard spot I don’t and it I mean you can always look back in hindsights 2020 like well we should have had this clarified
Years ago but we didn’t and now we’re trying to rectify that I don’t see anything I mean there there is no other you will have people that can’t sign it there will be some Fallout right is do you recommend I mean there’s no other I don’t know anywhere else because you
Can’t say well if we Institute this then we’re going to lose some leaders so we shouldn’t Institute it it’s like well well no cuz you’re going to have Future Leaders coming in if you don’t have clarifying so you have to backtrack and do it and that’s just is that just I
Yeah I think it’s a move that uh it’s it’s it’s part of our commitment to Courageous Fidelity to Orthodoxy in an age of ethical compromise and so that’s that’s the first value of seven I’m part of a fraternity of leaders uh brother and sisters who lead churches across
Across the West uh called crock and um it started with just 12 of us kind of praying together for a week and then we invited others on and we have seven values in the first one courageous Fidelity to Orthodoxy in an age of ethical compromise and moves like clarifying leadership
Requirements doctrinal and ethical alignment require courage like so much um and you can’t do it alone like you need a team you need a fellowship of churches around you that are doing similar things it’s the only way I felt like I felt insane I need
Like tell me I’m sane right now for all the the pain I’m inviting uh because we were unclear we’re moving toward Clarity and and I know I know churches in our city right now that are just kind of at a stalemate of ambiguity on this issue um with pastors some that are affirming
Elders that aren’t but some are neutral and they just never talk about it and I’m like oh my gosh um like what Powder Keg is going to erupt when in that situation how many people are going to be hurt without a formal clarifying moment that is loving and kind um just
Being halfhazard about it is way worse in my opinion do do you recommend posting something on your website a Sexuality Statement I I get that question a lot and I could kind of go back and forth on it something I mean if it’s done I think well I think if you
Just have a sexuality thing you don’t have any other things like Trinity and then weird and and welc stranger and alien yeah that’s why I’m thankful for laan and the laan Covenant um we we have four things on our beliefs page and it’s Apostles Creed and iine Creed and then a
Link to the lanne Covenant and then the Practical outflow of the laan Covenant which is the Cape Town commitment and that Cape Town thing is where we have all of our pastoral posture statements that we share with countless Church literally countless churches church is on um gender roles in the church um pastoring
Um people through different different kinds you know different aspects of the sexuality conversation and and all of that is there and when people ask we can link them to the right section so I think that kind of thing has been really helpful for us um because it’s it’s
Surrounded by other things we value you know it’s in context it’s not right you’re not singling out like a particular group of people or right yeah yeah can you um what tangible ways tangible things have you and the leadership of your church done to create healthy life-giving space for LGBT
People who are either curious about exploring or committed to the historic Christian sexual ethic yeah so uh Greg pikin who I mentioned um uh he he’s he’s a pastor in our church and he uh he and I put together kind of three a three-part framework for this like what
If we were to communicate to pastors what what can we think about to do just like you said to create a healthy Church um that’s faithful to Jesus and inclusive for elb people uh in a way that’s Orthodox and Foundations uh what was it foundation contextualization and representation so
Those three words and and in Foundation I think you know we just preach the gospel preach Jesus like the fact I said at the beginning um every identity is equally invited to surrender our whole person and and repent for refreshment I read re we read uh Revelation chapter N9
With our kids this morning and it’s just full of like pictures of like Locust with the head of humans and and Scorpion tales that are going to kill a third of the planet or something and my 10-year-old girl is like am I allowed to read this like what’s
Happening and then and then it gets to the end and it’s like but they did not repent of their worship of demons and the worship of idols and they didn’t turn to the lamp basically and I and I turn to the kids I’m like what was the point of all of that
Chaos and my eight-year-old goes they didn’t repent of worshiping demons and Idols like no whatever else happened that part is clear and that’s that’s right that’s that’s John the Revelator refrain like every human is invited to rethink their life and bring their identity you name the identity sexual identity racial identity
I’m a father husband straight white you I mean you could songwriter and any of those can become an idol um and obviously those identities are they attached to me in different levels of fixedness I could change vocations from songwriter um but any of them can become an Idol so I take them
All to the Lamb of God who’s at the center of the universe on the throne in the middle of heaven and I say take my identity as a musician Jesus take my identity as a sexual being as a father replace my desires and agendas within those identities replace them
With your heart and desires every human is invited to do that with every identity and the the this is all with under this is all under foundations foundational to this this move we make when we come to the throne Jesus is this idea that our primary identity now becomes
Loved child of God Evan Wickham loved Son of God Preston sprinkle love child of God but that doesn’t erase our other secondary identities but it Eng Graces them so Eng graced not erased that’s good so that that Foundation has been very helpful for our church when teaching about sexuality um
And then the question becomes my gosh how does my experience of sexuality become Eng graced to serve Christ and my primary identity as L child of God and that’s now the question of discipleship for everyone and so that Foundation has been key and then and then the second part contextualization
Is is really for me as this is for leaders like in our church like when I preach and when I talk about marriage let’s say I use marriage as a illustration in a sermon uh I will also use singleness you know um uh just just just to contextual if we
Really are a church that is like our church right now is mostly single people mostly unmarried so I’d be remiss not to apply the gospel um to single people uh in if if I if I if I am applying a text about sexuality to marriage I will also
Apply it into singleness um so just staying mindful of those moves I’m making when I’m when I’m listing you know another contextualization move that’s been helpful is like when when we get to Paul’s lists of sins and he lists pornea or whatever um one time it was it was it was an
Easter season and I preached on 1 Corinthians 6 and there was a a celibate gay guy in our church who brought some of his affirming gay friends to our church and we happen to be in first Corinthians 69- 11 on that day and I may have told this story on a previous
Episode with you but uh he’s like oh no and and and I thought I was I I think I did pretty good I I I thought I preached like pretty well that you know porneia is it applies to all people and this is not singling out gay folks and and and
All of that and I said if you’re gay here and you’re hearing this um you’re welcome equally with the rest of the church to submit your identity to Jesus so I thought I did a pretty good job and afterwards he called me he’s like Evan
It would be really really nice to hear a sermon that is pastorally uh Orthodox and inclusive of gay people that’s not connected to an ex aesus of pornea oh so like it’ be nice to hear that in another sermon about family or belonging or or uh loneliness or
Something not just porneia like whenever you talk about whenever you talk about the gays you’re always talking about sexual morality you know don’t it would be nice to hear other other times um I’m like oh that’s interesting that’s a contextualization piece um so yeah and then and then representation is the
Third one so Foundation contextualization representation that’s literally you know inviting lgbtq folks who are faithful the way of Jesus to the same levels of leadership that um sa folks who are faithful to Jesus are leading in and yeah and and Let the church know you’re doing that yeah yeah
Yeah I mean you mentioned Greg Greg’s a mutual friend and one of the most delightful humans uh I’ve ever been around shout out to Greg um I know a couple amazing Gregs Greg Pik and Greg Kohl’s um so celibate gay um committed to Orthodoxy um and he’s on staff he’s a
Public like you said he’s but like better terms he’s an openly gay Pastor I know some people just can’t get their mind around that kind of idea but um yeah yeah and well he he was he was on PID staff for a while but his therapy
His therapy practice has blown up and so now he’s he’s a lay Pastor in our church and and freed up completely to do what he’s gifted and called to do You’ had David Bennett guest preach before who’s uh celebrate Okay Christian um you’ve had other there other public people that
Are just volunteer or maybe shared their story and um I know you’ve had you know several months ago you had that um Sunday evening event where you guys did a whole that was that was a big one for us yeah I uh up in so the Sunday evening event was
Part of a year-long series we called House of learning where we took a really live issue like a controversial issue and ran it through the lens of the gospel and okay and and we asked how can we follow God’s thinking into this conversation for the sake of the world
Um and and and so yeah September was titled how our church cares about sexuality and I set up the night you can actually hear at the podcast at the Park Hill podcast feed you can hear recording of the night um I set it up by just championing Orthodoxy uh standing firm in historic
Marriage Jesus who stood with Moses all that on historic marriage and singleness and uh and then I kind of pivoted and said having said that um tonight we we wonder where that puts our beloved same seex attracted SL gay loved ones family members people in our church maybe maybe
Maybe that’s your story and you haven’t even told anyone and you’re like where does that actually put me and um and I said tonight for those of you that aren’t used to talking about this because it was very well attended night it was by far the biggest house of
Learning session attendance wise people want to know how to talk about this and and I said hey so you’re going to hear some terms that might be new to you you’re going to hear terms like samex attracted and gay and we’ll use them interchangeably and we honestly refuse
To be a church that dies on the hill of terms instead we commit to being a church that dies on the hill of whole person faithfulness to Jesus both body and mind not just body like oh as long as we don’t have sex we can be whatever
We want no like and inward cultivation of the Mind toward Holiness so committed and and terms are important we can debate about whether gay or samex attracted is going to help someone and I think that’s really can be helpful but it can also be very divisive as we’ve seen um even recently
Um so uh so that’s that’s we’ll talk we’ll talk offline about yeah yeah it’s just not a hill I mean yeah Hill so so so I so I started the night with that and then we had three like Ted talk like 20 minute talks from sexual minority
Folks folks like the first one was Greg pikin and he talked about how lgbtq people are uniquely gifted for Mission um when we are faithful to away of Jesus and single and committed to celibacy that is a powerful message of christlikeness to a church that is um just obsessed about getting everybody
Married in order to matter um and then the second was uh a straight pastor and a gay member just just celebrating their friendship almost like on the Fly Stephen Cooper and Paulo Aro just celebrating their friendship and so powerful just to watch them um just share their stories together and
Then the last one was uh Gabe and Michelle Conover who uh are in a mixed orientation marriage and that term was new for a lot of people that night in our church we defined it it’s marriage between a man and a woman it is a Christian marriage um where one of the spouses
Experiences like uh a different sexual orientation like the husband Gabe is a gay man and and just hearing them celebrate their own faithfulness to one another with joy was like the Capstone of the night um just so many very few dry eyes in the room just hearing hearing Michelle
Explain why it is so good to know she’s not just desired for her body but her whole person wow is is served and loved by a man who’s committed to her like Christ loves the church like to hear her say that was like like Jesus like you
Can come now like this was an amazing night uh and I think nights like that celebrating faithfulness is key to to unlocking the conversation for people um yeah and there were complaints there some people were like well what this was this night was one-sided there’s a whole
Other side there’s like a affirming side I’m like yeah that we’re not going to platform that like we’re not an affirming Church we’re a historic Christian church so you got he got some push back on the affirming side I was wondering if he got pushed back on more
Of the ex gay side like hey change is possible let’s have some testimonies of people that yeah yeah we had some we had one individual who represented a household who came to us and said hey this this this night felt like a conversation Ender not a conversation
Starter we need to even question the validity of these words to to Mark identity and I’m like yeah like I said that’s not what we’re going to die on as a church because it doesn’t seem to be something the scriptures do this episode is sponsored Ed by Kua an Innovative streaming service that
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First month free when you use the code free month so sign up today for free it’s funny I two weeks after that EV or a week after that event I I had both gab Michelle and Greg Pik and and Greg koh’s on a panel in San Diego so it
Was fresh off of so I got to almost relive cuz they shared a lot of the same stuff and it was it was powerful dude I mean it I love Yeah Gabe the gay guy in the mixed orentation marriage he is my community leader like I go to community
Group on Wednesday nights and he leads us through he leads us through the prayer practices and leads all the kids in the group through okay kids highs and lows talk about highs and lows and we dismiss the kids and then we have deep dive Bible talks it’s just I don’t know
I mean seeing their marriage is one of most powerful portraits of a Christian marriage that I’ve ever ever seen to see them their honesty with each other is off the chart um unique challenges no doubt it hasn’t been easy and they would be the first ones to say
That but they Delight in each other’s Humanity in ways that I rarely see any kind of marriage do in ways I challenging to me I was like gosh I I it it made me want to be a better husband and and treat marriage with more theological depth because they’ve
They’ve had to they’ve had to do that I mean it was it was it was stunning it was a stunning portrait of a Christian marriage going back to your point this um in being inclusive of LGBT SSA again terminology is not I don’t want to camp
Out on that um it’s not just to care for these quote unquote needy people it actually makes the entire body of Christ look more like like Jesus because again I’ve learned personally I’ve learned so much about what a Christian marriage is from people in mixed orientation marriages because they they couldn’t
From day one they couldn’t rely on their sexual attraction to each other to you know hold this thing together and realize few years in that this isn’t going to work and then you know seven years in the marriage you know most straight people have this kind of crisis
Of like what am I doing how are we going to you know and then you know half will get divorced the other half struggle Al you know from the very beginning people in a mixed orientation marriage says what’s marriage for why did God create
This thing we we have we have to we have to have a more a thicker deeper Foundation upon which to base this whole relationship because sexual attraction is not going to hold this thing together I’ve learned more about friendship um and what it is to Delight in Jesus I
Actually get through the day finding your ultimate Delight in Jesus for my samesex attracted celibate uh friends you know who who again can’t fall back on a spouse can’t fall back on the hope of getting married when one day or whatever you know um I mean it’s yeah and all all these stories
These alternative or minority experiences of the Christian faith actually contributes in brilliant ways to the life of the body as a whole um yeah anyway I’m I’m just echoing everything you’re you’re I mean I just a story just to illustrate that like there there was a man who is uh advanced in
Years let’s say compared to the demographic of our church he’s a he’s a boomer he’s a beloved wise Boomer in our church who has been committed for years he and his wife are amazing and when we brought Greg pikin on as a pastor uh he had questions naturally uh and he’s like
I need coffee with you Evan I need to work this out I am struggling here I don’t know what to make of this and so we had coffee and he whips out this paper with he he numbered or he he ordered his questions a all the way to double a he
Ran out of alphabet letters for his question he had 27 questions about hiring Greg pikin that’s a long coffee so and like all the way from you know how does this how does this follow scripture to what how are our kids in our church going to be safe now to like
Like so many just he’s like you need to have Grace for me I’m struggling I need help he was humble but he was scared and uh and I said okay we’re not going to get to all these questions in one coffee meeting he’s like totally totally said
Can we take a 30,000 foot step back Greg pikin and the elders are in full agreement that marriage and singleness are equally celebrated in the scriptures and in the church and marriage is one man one woman exclusively whole person for life and guess what Greg as a same-sex attracted
Man who celibate fully is on board with Jesus in that and then this man goes goes every one of my questions is answered now are you serious no way he’s like just couldn’t get his mind around somebody who is gay uses that term and holds to a historic sexuality he he just
Like so many of us hasn’t been brought to a place where he has to think biblically and critically about a real life situation um and and apply theology to practice like he just hasn’t and he got scared he got like how do I even talk about it I gave him words and he’s
Like oh my gosh I’m so on board I will have questions still I’m sure but I’m I just process so much in five minutes with you and I think a beautiful moment of a I I mean I I I’m not quite a Boomer yet but I’m getting there and I so I get
Some of the like I look at the younger generations and I’m like why you do it that I get I get the kind of like oh wow I don’t know I I got so many questions about what’s going on here to have the humility to come to you in honesty to
Say I I I don’t think I’m on board but I want to listen I want to meet with you and learn that that’s that’s that’s awesome anyway I hats off to tell him I very impressed with his posture yeah me too I mean he’s a he’s kind of an
Anonymous textbook example I like to share it’s it’s beautiful humility so yep um you so you’ve had Fallout what what does that look like and how would you encourage so I I I I would imagine a lot of pastors listening would resonate with everything we’re saying they might be in in a
Church context where it’s like I don’t know man if I did everything evans’s doing I’m going to have some Fallout I’m gonna backlash I’m gonna have key donors leave or it’s just going to be I don’t know like how you’ve had Fallout um you’ve had backlash you had
Sleepless nights I’m sure like talk to us about how what that is look like and how you have managed that yeah and your advice to others who might be a little bit scared rightly so so of of the backlash they might have if they start really pushing into this conversation
Yeah I think yeah you know I heard all my life I’ve been in pastoral Ministry for like 23 years or something and even back in my caly Chapel days in the office 9 to5 with those guys it’s like leadership is lonely remember that leadership is lonely and I’m like I
Don’t know I think you can do it in community you can do it with you can do it with a team you can do it with the Brotherhood if you have spiritual fathers and mothers in your life you have a family like but at the end of the
Day like if you’re the tip of the spear in your community making these decisions there will be a loneliness Factor um that you can bring into your community of trusted counselors and and spiritual directors if you don’t have trusted counsel and spiritual directors that is first order of business is to surround
Yourself with people you can submit to when they tell you you’re nuts um but when you do bring it to those people you can just kind of fall on the rock you can fall on Jesus in your community and let him keep breaking your heart um we’re coming up on seven
Years as a my wife and I leading this church we’re entering our seventh year and honestly it feels like we need a Year of Jubilee like like it would be nice to have a sabatical and we’re planning that in 2025 um where we’re just going to kind
Of detach and get open-handed it’s been hard like we’ve taken hits uh from every side and we’re not you know playing the victim at all but it’s part of the part of the task of leading is is to take these hits and I’m feeling like rest and
A restart and a reorientation of my identity in Jesus is required otherwise there will not be another seven years and um One One Pastor uh kind of spoke over me a couple years ago five years ago now when we started he saide uh your your audience totally know who he
Is just a absolute brilliant man who is very um prophetic that’s not the side of him that people see people see this guy as like a brainiac Theologian but he’s actually operates in the gifts of the Spirit is prophetic shares Visions for you in the moment lays hands on you and
Prophesies he’s incredible man and and he said Evan I just get the sense in the next five years you’re uniquely in a in a position in the spiritual climate of Our Moment where you’re going to take a disproportionate amount of hits and and I he’s like You’re gonna laugh but I get
The picture of uh Tony Stark and Iron Man and Tony Stark could never do what Iron Man is called to do uh Tony Stark would die instantly in any of those fights he’d just be just a mess uh on the pavement and so will you you have to
Sink back into the identity in Christ into the Iron Man suit of your identity in Christ for this otherwise you’ll be an absolute mess and hurt people that you’re supposed to protect so um so make this your prayer maybe this is for your listeners today leaders that are struggling with courage in this
Conversation struggling with the idea of being courageously faithful to Orthodoxy in an age of ethical compromise when neither side will be on board fully with you um the prayer he gave me was my life is Christ Nothing Else Matters my life is Christ Nothing Else Matters and uh a couple years later I
Had a therapist godly man who added two more lines nothing to lose nothing to prove my life is Christ nothing else matters I have nothing to lose my primary identity is Love Child of God just like I’m preaching to everyone else I have nothing to lose and I have nothing to
Prove uh some hacker could take over all my social Fe social media feeds today and I have no more social media influence you know it actually started happen a couple years ago and uh I’m like whatever I have nothing to lose nothing to prove my life is Christ Nothing Else
Matters yeah my nothing to lose nothing to prove like just pray that for 10 minutes breathing in and breathing out leaning back into the identity in Christ that we’re given through the spirit from the heart of the father when those spiritual formation practices are in
Your life and in my life I have joy like like Joy is reality at that point like that’s Mary I mean this week the reading from the lectionary for the third week of advent is Mary’s Magnificat like think of Mary like she has some really controversial
News that her town is going to reject her for hardcore like she’s a virgin pregnant betr to a pretty cool guy you know he has the lineage of King David and and so she’s set up in a culture where your protection provision and position come from the man she’s like I
Have a man now and then a night angel comes to her and and freaks her out and says actually you’re going to get pregnant before you get with that guy and she’s like she naturally how can this how can this be this requires so much courage and he’s like the power of
The most high will overshadow you your life is Christ H Nothing Else Matters and uh and she and her reaction is the key to Joy like Let It Be to me according to what you said according to the word of the Lord um and that’s Mary you know her her whole her
Whole thing and she leads the way for the rest of the Gospel Luke you know yeah L Luke has Luke has this addiction to showing how God works to the marginalized and Mary’s the first in line of these marginalized unlikely Heroes the anti-heroes umti it’s like the whole gospel envelop
Yeah yeah so she’s this she’s this sexual marginalized being she’s a woman who’s a teen who’s now pregnant out of wedlock or whatever and and yeah and she she carries with her the literal identity of Christ in her womb and uh and so that this is this is what we carry with
Us I’m guessing it was uh John Tyson who prophesied over you it sounds like John it wasn’t John was one of the it was Greg yeah okay you got it one of those two guys okay yeah um yeah Greg’s pretty charismatic people don’t know that about him and he’s insanely pastoral Greg Boyd
He’s known for this like controversial theology or whatever but he is so pastoral he’s amazing yeah yeah I mean he can he can sit in the middle of 12 pastors who are who are picking at his theology like yeah but what about this Greg I don’t think you’re right on
This and and then 30 minutes later we’re just calling on the name of Jesus asking the holy SP to fill us for another season um yeah anyway let’s go back I want to summarize so so things that you have done pastorally as a church to be more inclusive um and
Welcoming toward LGBT SSA people um I mean first of all you have youve you have had a a pastor now he’s volunteer who is is gay um you did the Sunday evening event you’ve had guest speakers like David Bennett you’ve preached on it you haven’t shied away from it you’ve
Integrated it naturally into sermons some some times in ways that maybe were less than helpful and you’ve learned from that which which is amazing um is there anything else uh do you do do do is there a group a formal or informal group that gets together of people who
Are um have a yeah who are lgbtq and and are committed to the church is that something you guys organize or can you tell me about that or yeah well we just we just uh have we just invited a revoice to do a chapter in our building
So the third Sunday of every month there’s a revoice chapter that meets it’s not an official Ministry of parkel church because it’s literally a par Church organization that exists to do this so okay any church any church that has space can say hey we have a we have
An on-site Pastor who really has a heart for lgbtq people to have a place to process how they can be faithful to Jesus while also being sexual minority what does that look like and so they have a pastor on site that that can call revoice and say hey I’d like to I’d like
To host a little chapter here there’s like there’s like five people that would love a connection point and that’s what we do um third Sunday of the month in San Diego but um but yeah from my vantage point I I talked to you about this when you were prepping for your San
Diego uh Forum um there are a few things we do that come to mind number one we talk freely about samesex attracted people we talk freely about uh you know sexuality and gender stuff like we include gay samex attracted in nonchalant mentions of things that people wrestle with Al along with other
Things um and we platform lgbtq people who are following Jesus and the church’s ethic like there’s no glass ceiling at our church just because someone is gay uh and and we say that that’s not surprising to people that are listening to Sunday mornings you know um and the
Big one we don’t police people’s language okay you know um that’s why you know I said at the beginning of our Forum that we did that we’re just not going to die on the hill of terms but instead we’re going to die on the hill of whole person body body and mind
Faithfulness to Jesus uh and then you know have open churchwide conversations about the topic and then help connect people with others who are gay or samex attracted in the church that want to follow Jesus and so um and there’s pastoral challenges that flow from that like like I mentioned the
The guy who’s in his 60s who had 27 questions um helping the really conservative church members feel safe and and there’s plenty of people in their 20s there’s we actually get more freshmen in college coming with conservative concerns than we do older folks really so it’s not it’s not just
An age issue not at all no there’s conservative conser more conservative genen Z there’s a lot yeah there’s a lot of conservative jenzy folks that at our church that are always asking clarifying questions in good faith and that’s beautiful the church actually my main concern with having a forum on how our
Church cares about sexuality and platforming lgbtq people who are side b or whatever my main concern was that we’d suddenly create a less safe space for conservative people like people people that like the guy who said this felt like a conversation Ender can I ask questions about identity and language
Anymore yeah yeah like I’m like yes you can of course you can we we need we need to be family in this and I I think it’s important not to lose that like to honor people’s desire to conserve Orthodoxy um who haven’t educated who haven’t educated themselves in the
Language so don’t don’t lose those folks in the rush to just talk freely with all the new vocab you know um acknowledge that there’s going to be new language while we stay committed to the unchanging truth of scripture and yeah that’s the hardest part in my experience
For the majority of people who’ve been Christians for a long time and it’s I think that’s why a lot of pastors get stuck and scared because honestly they’re the givers and their supporters and the ones who are bought in early on and just rocking the boat doesn’t seem advantageous for the organiz
So we just we just a on the side of Silence um any anyways and then the last thing really truly honor singleness like we there’s a guy in our church he’s a a samesex attracted guy who leans maybe more affirming than the average non-affirming Christian so he’s like right on the he’s
Like he’s like side A plus b or whatever I don’t know what that is but he’s at our church yeah he’s like a strong B+ and and he’s but he’s attending and and he’s he’s just attending he knows that a requirement for leadership is passionate commitment to Orthodoxy so
He’s kind of just like he’s just attending and taking communion and worshiping and really Discerning just beautiful and and he said the reason why he’s Discerning at our church instead of an affirming church is because um he’s he’s just not interested in marriage idolatry just affirming version oh yeah
He loves he loves how we um emphasize singleness we actually celebrate singleness in our church uh in our preaching and those that we platform As Leaders we have single female pastors we have single folks who are leading Community groups that lead married folks in their groups um and uh yeah
Yeah so that’s a big reason why we don’t do couples Retreats or marriage Ministry in our church like an ongoing marriage Ministry um because the second we do that we’d have to do like a single celibate Ministry or something um because that’s not just a gay thing you
Know that’s like a Jesus thing so so we just do things as a whole family uh old young women men children all together single married and so so that intentionally so so that we can be this kind of church so that’s not to say we don’t do breakoff
Marriage like we do like we did we did the individual talks all through last year this past year on different issues one of them was adoption and orphan care and so we singled that out for a bit and thought about it anyways ongoing Ministries we’re very very careful about
What we kind of baptize as an ongoing Ministry in our church there’s going back to the Fallout people that get upset accuse you whatever of something and then end up leaving like that’s as a pastor that’s all well I bet it’s mostly hard there there’s maybe some cases
Where it’s like oh this is kind of nice to not have this person here anymore um so I bet I bet it’s a bothan um I there’s certain Fallout where it’s like you look back and said like I I think we did everything as best we can and that’s
Just what’s going to happen H have there been times when you look back and say ah man that that Fallout we if we could have done something better and and it could have actually prevented this person from you know leaving or getting upset or um yeah does that make sense
Like looking back is there anything you could have done different to prevent nonessential or non or non inevitable Fallout I’m not sure if that makes sense I’d have to think about that for a while if you’re asking specifically as it relates to sexuality reasons people have left for the
Conversation um yeah I mean I already mentioned the biggest one just longtime trusted leaders that felt bait and switched they felt baited into airmy inclusive kind of thing and as we got slowly clearer they felt less and less um anyways that that one we had a whole system restructuring where at Basics at
Basics I mean that solves so much when the entry point you you just have slides up we have a slot it’s really cool actually we got it from Dan Kimble at vintage um vintage Faith Church he does this thing for his leaders that we totally ripped off with his permission
And we have concentric circles with the gospel in the middle and then the next circle out is essential doctrines and ethics like and the language we use everything inside this circle is everything Christians have believed and done and if you remove any one of them you will no longer be recognizably
Christian by 1,00 years of Christians who wrote anything down so so that’s what we say and I mean and people people we preempt the question how do you know like how can you know that well we have we have a two-part answer to that the whole of the cannon of
Scripture and they’re like which Canon well 66 books of the Protestant Canon are in all the other cannons too so at least we know we have that and then well and they’re like well how do you know that we’re reading it right well we actually have a paper trail it’s called
Historical Theology and we have a paper trail of how the whole church has read all the passages and none of those readings are as authoritative as the originals but they give us a family tradition and uh I love what Beth I love what Beth Felker Jones said on your on
Your podcast Rec I’m an avid fan of Theology and the raw and so she’s like scripture over tradition you’re like yeah but the scriptures come through a tradition and so acknowledging acknowledging that is like how we know how our family has read these things and so those are the circles gospel in the
Middle and then the first circle out is how the family has always described the family okay when you when you say gospel you’re you’re saying like 1 Corinthians 15 like Jesus died Rose minim like like the bare minimum a human being has to like okay Ascent to with their person in
Order to be saved well got the thief on the cross into yeah good fa yeah exact exactly like like help like help you’re the God I’m asking for help for help and and and that’s gospel and obviously you know if you if you know it’s Jesus you
Should he he he will introduce himself as Jesus you recognize him as Lord that’s gospel then Essentials are more like you know maybe Trinity and things that are uning yeah exactly the essentials um are once you say Jesus is Lord then your life is open to learning
About him that’s the proof of a life that is actually under his lordship so like you’re like oh my gosh my this God who saved me has a family who has been telling their story for 3,000 years I want to look into this story and then he
Reveals himself to you then at boom you have Apostles created n and Greek um and then you have you have that so that’s the doctrines but the ethics are in the circle too you have oh yeah yeah love God love neighbor you have fruit of the spirit like you can’t take out
Patience from the fruit of the spirit and say no you know what I don’t think God wants me to be patient no Christian for 1800 years will recognize you as a Christian if you condemn patience and and and then the third one is we have on the list is marriage uh marriage comes
To us through the family and then the fourth one we have the Ser on the mount and the fifth one we have all of human life Bears the image of is the image of God womb a tomb and the last one every identity is welcome to become secondary
Under the primary identity of Jesus so all of that is is the ethic and I’m like I re and then I look at the I look at the basics class I look at all the new members and I’m like I know I think I know where most of you are going to have
Your questions you’re not going to be asking whether Joy is Christian you’re gonna you’re going to be asking whether opposite sex marriage is the only kind of Christian marriage that’s what you’re going to be asking and so we’re going to talk about that save your questions we’re gonna have Q&A so that’s
That that kind of clarifying moment early in someone’s Journey with your church yeah will solve so many so many problems down the road so Clarity is kindness Clarity up front Clarity up front alleviates pastoral um situations down the road in my in my opinion as a
Non- pastor like if things are clear up front and people agree on that or at least are aware of that you you don’t you you alleviate stuff down the road when people say you know are living in a way that’s contrary to the vision of the
Church like hey you signed up for this ahead of time like all to do is go back to the original you know conversation but when things aren’t clear up front then it just leads to a lot more pastoral work had down the road we’ve had because of this we’ve had a lot more
Fallout about other things like yeah like like poor Conflict Management like we recently had a tough situation in our church unrelated to sexuality where it’s just it’s just you know church is messy leadership is messy yeah uh Evan I gotta run and uh yeah late for another meeting here so bro I love
Hanging out with you uh you have an open invitation to come on theolog on anytime you have a thought you want to tease out so just shoot me text let me know and looking forward to Exiles in Babylon let’s go April third third time yeah
Yeah April um yeah I’m I’m I’m it’s one of my favorite things one of my favorite times of the year is hanging out with you for a few days at the conference I wish we could actually hang out more we were both kind of like working at the
Conference but uh um yeah yeah yeah yeah appreciate you Joy enjoy appreciate the friendship starting if people want to look you up uh I mean Park hill.com what’s the Church website they want to check out um yeah Parkhill sd. Church Parkhill sd. church and then um you have
A Twitter account that’s you’re mainly active on Twitter or X whatever we want to call it kind of I’m less ever yeah popping once in a while yeah yeah okay awesome man well hey we’ll uh we’ll stay in touch all right see [Applause] You this show is part of the converge podcast Network
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