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And do not constitute medical or other professional advice hello and welcome to speaking of Cults uh my new podcast here and uh we’re just kind of still getting used to the title and and uh and imaging and branding and all of that in the New Year here as we’re moving forward but I
Uh am still very very hot on Cults on coercive control on abuse and Trauma and how we deal with these things that is uh uh what this podcast is all about and as uh you know here this week I am welcoming back now she was on my
Sensibly speaking now she’s on this one and here is Dr Laura Anderson uh hi Dr Laura welcome hello oh I was so glad to get the invitation because I was like we we did had such a good conversation last time and there were so many different areas
We could have gotten so I was like this is good I love it so I’m so happy to be here awesome well I am very happy to have you back you are wonderful guest and your book uh when religion hurts people this was recently published do
You want to just kind of drop a little blurb on this for people so they know what this is about there it is y so it’s actually called when religion hurts you healing from religious trauma and the impact of high control religion so this came out mid October 2023 and it’s been
Pretty wild but uh you know I I want to be um kind of open to say that what we talk about in here doesn’t necessarily remain exclusive to religion or high control religion it includes all sorts of fundamentalism High control groups coercive control Cults they all
Kind of play from the same Playbook and so um yeah so this is It’s it kind of addresses all of that and that’s why I wanted to make sure I included High control religion in the title because I think that’s where people can really kind of see an easy crossover but yeah I
I talk a lot about what is trauma what is you know spiritual and religious abuse adverse religious experiences the nervous system and then the bulk of the book is really talking about what does it look like to actually heal from systems like that um I know probably
Part of our conversation will be how do we make sure that we’re not just you know kind of cult hopping right or fundamentalist hopping just hopping from one system of controlling thinking to another and um yeah and so there’s a lot of that in there of course you know I I
Based this off of my own doctoral research um and I pulled from there so it is scientifically backed which I really appreciate and yeah and then there’s a ton of also like anecdotal stuff stuff from my client sessions that I’ve learned you know from people that
I’ve come in contact with and of course my own story and so I’ve been so humbled at the reception that it’s received because you know as a writer you’re like gosh you know is anybody going to like this you know is it going to make an impact
And so to to hear even just one person who’s like wow this was so meaningful in this way it that makes the whole process worth it so I’m thrilled and it can be purchased wherever books are bought so when religion hurts you I it’s excellent yeah it’s out and available good well
There it is folks and I really do recommend this uh in fact we’re gonna get into a little bit of some some stuff in that book later on in the episode here today um because this is really important stuff religion is is a wide spread phenomenon in the world to say
The least uh it is the source of uh fantastic amounts of joy and catharsis and healing for people but at the same time as we see in international events right now it can be uh contributory toward an awful lot of awful and so it’s not a matter of a black and white well
It’s all good or it’s all bad that’s not that’s not the approach here the approach is when it does hurt people when it does become traumatizing what do you do how do you deal with that you know can and and for some people it’s a revelation to learn that they have been
Being dramatized and that they have been being abused in the name of help and compassion and and faith and so this can be very confusing for people because it mixes all of the strongest of our emotions in the highs and the lows I mean is that yeah yeah yeah I mean I I
Feel like trauma is like what we might call like a core wounding or a core you know um injury where it really hits us on a soul level and I don’t mean that necessarily in like a religious sense but like to the core the essence of who
We are yeah and and then it has these really kind of robust impacts that can last a very very long time so I think that’s very accurate to say in terms of the the long lasting impact in and how it how it works yeah it’s not about necessarily being anti-religion but it’s
Understanding how that can really impact us in a negative and harmful way exactly exactly you know there’s uh I mean the the the the the just to beat the dead horse all the way down to the ground is is you know is like we all need water to
Survive right we all need it right we do you can’t live without it you’ll literally die within days if you don’t have it yeah yeah yet you can drink too much of it and die too much right get too much and so if you want to think about religion that
Way I don’t care right as as long as we kind of get the Connect the Dots here that it can harm people as well as hurt people as well as help people and yeah and that’s what we want to focus on here because we’re all about healing here um
And get moving on past this stuff so um so on that happy note I I’d like to ask you first um because we talked in general terms about trauma and recovery and religion in our first episode and so so without necessarily having to you know retread all that I thought maybe we
Might talk a little bit more detail today about how is it that when you are a Believer or you know a theist or you know Evangelical or a Scientologist or a Mormon or it doesn’t really matter if you’re a Believer right whatever the system is yeah how can you tell how what
Should you be looking for thinking about what are the what are the things that tell you you know you have yellow flags maybe and red flags right of of abuse or trauma or fear induction or you know this stuff that goes on how do you spot that before
It goes off the rails yeah well the first thing I’d like to say with this is so part of the way I even got into understanding religious trauma was through the lens of domestic violence or intimate partner violence there is some really wonderful research out there on dynamics of power and control in
Relationships and I realized this I don’t know 10 12 13 years ago when I was getting out of a domestically violent Rel relationship and I was looking at my journals as I had written about various experiences and I could not tell who said what to me was this my abusive
Partner or was this the God that I followed or the church leaders that I was following it was very interesting to be like okay you know this person said I’m unworthy what but so did this person right you know and I was able to start
To see some links between why it was not difficult for me to accept a abusive behavior from my partner because I had already been conditioned to believe all of these things as a result of religion and so I I want to name that because I
Did draw from a lot of that research in understanding dynamics of power and control coercive control group behavior and so with that I always like to say you know when I work with people um that in like domestic violence settings you know they always say well
Why didn’t you just leave and I think that happens so often with Cults in high control religion and things like that too and I often times say that is actually the wrong question to be asking because when we start to understand the Dynamics of power and control that are a
Part of a relationship or a group it’s not about just leaving it’s it’s about understanding the psychological damage the emotional relational social physical damage it’s not just breaking up it is your entire identity to be a part of these groups and so we do know now how
To spot some of these behaviors but the problem with this uh not only you know not only the abuse of course that’s a problem but the the problem with this is that it isn’t necessarily overt so if you think about an abusive relationship say you know you go on a date with
Somebody um and they start screaming at the server and flip over the table and they you know start punching people you are probably not going on a second date with that person right like very overt Behavior but in most cases domestically violent and abusive relationships do not
Start that way same with high control groups and Cults and religions you don’t walk in and they say oh by the way we’re going to need this much money from you and you can’t be friends with these people and you have to only believe these things and not believe these other
Things and you must dress this way and talk this way and not watch these movies and only listen to this music they don’t start with that they start with what we call this love bombing phase which is very similar in relationships and so it’s ingratiating yourself endearing
Yourself you know we’re so glad to have you here you know and they start to speak this language that’s meeting very very human needs that we have for connection and community and stability and certainty a sense of purpose right and that appeals to our humanity and so
We buy it not because we are weak-minded or because we’re like interested in being controlled but because most high control groups understand basic human need and they pray upon that um and so so there’s the beginning of what that is so when we say like how do we notice you
Know if we’re in these groups you know we can look at the beginning and say hey how did we get into this group in the first place you know were these were there these dynamics that we might call like love bombing where you know promises were made there was kind of a
Fantasy a picture created right um but a lot of people don’t necessarily you know they’re like oh that no that’s that’s nothing right like that that actually that’s what I want to get back to like that was the greatest time in my life was to have all these
People that were like yes we’ll meet your needs and you know whatever but over time we notice it in groups and in relationships like the honeymoon never lasts that’s just right it just never lasts and we start to see the tension building we start to see little rules
Being created we start to see more consequence and you for making mistakes it’s not just like oh you’re you’re a new believer you know that that was just a mistake it’s like hey if you want to be a True Believer you better watch yourself right and over time little by
Little we start to notice that areas of control are are kind of taking over what that group was and so I H there is there’s a kind of universal document created by the duth project as it pertains to domestic violence and it’s called the power the power and control
Wheel so I built off of that concept and I created what I call the religious power and control wheel but you could substitute religious for fundamentalist cult High control coercive whatever it’s in my book it’s in the very back um is yeah um it’s like page 213 if anybody
Has it and I do reference it in the book but the what is helpful about this is there’s eight different categories of different types of behaviors and so they’re in categories such as isolation minimizing denying and blaming emotional abuse spirit spiritual abuse threats accusations and intimidation economic control sexuality and gender defining
And loss of autonomy and under each one of those categories I do give some examples so isolation might be things like cutting relationships off with people that are outside of the system uh information control here’s what you can listen to and read here’s what you can’t
Um having to report back for how you spent your time and money and resources um devaluing people that are not a part of the group things like that minimizing denying and blaming might be like saying that didn’t happen you’re making too big of a deal of this victim blaming calling
Them quote unquote sin issues or ego issues versus the actual abuse that is happening um and so we look at that and we start to go oh like the this is how we might be able to tell kind of in a more overt way if there are these
Dynamics of power and control happening now I think what become so sticky about this and we see this in domestic violence relationships too is that on the outset we go well I mean I’ve done some of those things before and that’s true right I’ve minimized things I’ve denied things I’ve you know blamed
People for things I’ve manipulated people I’ve used my privilege in different ways and so oftentimes we look at that and we’re like well I did that too so can I really speak out about it in this other context like maybe they didn’t mean to
You know we give a lot of excuses a lot of flexibility because we understand that this can be like maybe poor Behavior but it can be behavior that a lot of people do and so we write it off but what we look for in terms of uh
Dynamics of power and control in systems or relationships is that these things are happening persistently and consistently over time they’re building on one another um if those issues are brought up where it’s like hey you’re really minimizing this um there you know if it’s not handled in a way where
There’s like you know looking at it being curious that sort of thing that’s where we might need to start to take notice like are they minimizing the minimizing you know are they taking responsibility and if the answers are no that’s where we start to see like w
Maybe these are areas of control um I always like to say like you know what would happen if you pushed back so what would you what would happen if you said you know I’m not going to spend my time or money there or I’m not going to um
Abide by your dress code or you know and and Watch What Happens how do they push back is there space to show up as yourself what happens if and when somebody tries to leave that group what happens then right we know like Fair gaming um and you know like or how I
Grew up it’s like well you’re cut off the devil has you know his the devil can get you and whatever happens to you happens to you you know and so there’s a lot of like justification of abusive harassing behaviors you know um and so we look at that too we go okay what
Happens if somebody leaves and that can often comes clue us into like is this a group that really thrives on these dynamics of power and control so there’s the tip of the iceberg but also a soap box no awesome no that was great because because all those points on that wheel
Are 100% And I was thinking to myself some examples that fit right into those things and I thought well there it is right I mean even that even um whole you know even the every line you were reading or every little bit you were talking about could be you know
Practically an entire podcast episode laying out or describing or or elaborating on how those manifest I mean when you talk about losing um or or the nature of your relationships changes with people who are not members of this group or aren’t in this relationship or aren’t part of your gang or Club then
Yeah you know that the nature of it changes become more negative and you can sort of stop every now and again and sort of do a little assessment of your relationships your friends you’re who who am I talking to these days Who Am I who have I dumped who have I not talked
To in quite a while and why you know this these little things that’ll occur to you from time to time that you that it does I think uh help to stop and you know smell those roses look around take a take a take a look at yourself now
Versus you were a year ago two years three years ago what’s the nature of things right have you assed a bunch of people or or burned Bridges because the group or the person told you to or because it seemed like the right thing to do at the time
Because they didn’t really like what you were doing yeah yeah yeah and I think another thing especially when it comes to religions in particular there’s always this eternal component so like there’s an eternity that you are either trying to avoid or go to and so you know
Like we look at groups you know like um fraternities and sororities where it’s like we dress the same and we you know like okay so what’s the difference between that and then like you know Scientology or fundamentalism whatever whatever that is and it’s like well okay
If you wear the blue skirt on the day that you’re supposed to wear the pink skirt you’re probably not going to be banished from the group you are probably not going to you know have to live in hell you know where we and we go okay these other groups there are major
Eternal consequences as if you step out of what they have prescribed and on top of that they have a spiritual figure like a god a higher power that has somehow said this is what my will is and so now if I don’t do it there’s also a
Higher power that I have to answer to and subsequently there’s you know a pastor or a leader or you know some tiny little short man you know who you know who all has all this power you know and and he’s the voice of God or zenu or whatever and and so then
You know if if I go against what he says not only am I going against God’s Prophet or whatever I’m also going against this higher power and so there is so much more consequence Eternal consequence even for not be you know following the rules and the prescriptions exactly as followed
Whereas you know with other certain groups we we don’t see that we don’t usually see that happening in a fraternity or a sorority or girl scouts or you know anything like that so I think that can be another defining factor to start looking at is you know
Just that that hierarchy of power and The Eternity of consequence oh perfect absolutely true it’s funny you actually brought that word out of all of the ones to use because that’s exactly the word Scientology uses right is if you leave you’re throwing away your eternity yes
As though this thing you have and you’re GNA just like toss it and it’s gone now and oh guess you’re not going to live into eternity in this you know uh wonderful state of existence that that you know that you’re you’re aspiring to you’re going to lose all that and uh you
Know and and people ask you know I haven’t why didn’t you just walk out why didn’t you just leave why didn’t you know whether it’s domestic or whether it’s occult or whatever and one of the reasons people leave just be blunt is not only or won’t leave is not only
Because they are so sold on the belief set or the culture of it and it’s and it’s absolutely fulfilling their needs there’s no question about that but often they’re flat out threatened oh yeah you know if you leave there are going to be these consequences and it can physical or
Spiritual yeah yeah when we look at it um and I think this applies in systems as well as relationships when we go why does somebody stay in in something like that there’s kind of like six core reasons that people will stay I I put three of them kind of together like
Hopes dreams and possibilities we stay because of that I hope that it will get better we have dreams of what this could be um we look back at like oh we had this love bombing time where it was so wonderful and my needs were being met
And if I could just do more repent more whatever and get back to that then everything is going to be okay and we stay for hop streams and possibilities we stay because we are living in a space of denial which is usually a coping mechanism but we’re going oh you know
There’s no perfect Church there’s no Perfect People this happens it’s not really that bad they’re not hitting me that you know like everybody makes mistakes right we have this kind of denial that we we can kind of live in um and and we stay because of that we stay
Because of love because I truly love these people that I’m with I love this church that I’m a part of I love this greater good or this cause or this higher power and I I don’t know if I can have access to that outside of this
Group um and of course then we stay out of fear and that’s what you were kind of just alluding to there it’s like what would happen to me if I were to leave in a lot of cases in high control groups we’re not looking about oh now I just
Don’t have somewhere to go on a Sunday morning we’re going I’ve lost my community I potentially lost my finances I have lost my ability to work because maybe I don’t have skills that are marketable outside of this system in many cases we lose friends and we lose
Family and we lose Community um and we’ve lost our s you know and there’s there’s a lot of fear in all of that and sometimes that feels so overwhelming like the unknown feels so overwhelming that we would rather stay in something that feels familiar even if it’s fairly
Dysfunctional um and so we and we when you look at it from that perspective we go well yeah that would actually make a lot of sense why somebody would stay because those are huge hurdles to come over or to get over um and so so that’s
Why I always say it takes an extremely Brave person to leave a system or a relationship like this it is not somebody who is weak-minded or half-hearted like they are brilliant and strong and courageous and I think it’s so important that every person knows that if you’ve left a relationship like
This a a a system like this you have done incredibly Brave work and that should not be missed um yeah we need to F we need to have that always it’s like yep that that happened and and I I’m I’m a courageous person because of it that’s
Right that’s a really good point um because we tend to be really down on ourselves uh you know when we first wake up quote unquote right and get out um and I wanted to ask I want to get to that stage but I want to ask first about
Something that happens that we don’t necessarily talk about or frame this way very often but I think you might be uniquely because of your expertise and skills in this area with religion I think you might be um able to answer this and that is as it’s not a it’s not
Okay you come in and here’s 20 tons of trauma and we’re going to dump it all on your head all at once yeah and then you’re going to be here for 20 years and then you’re going to finally get sick of it and leave it’s a gradual process
Right and we talk about how they gradually introduce the awful to you over time and condition you it’s the boiling frog kind of thing y but I’m wondering okay so they are traumatizing you right they’re creating emotional impacts that are that are damaging or destructive to
You and we carry this around right and this is the source of of worry and Stress and Anxiety that we can experience but because we’re living in this sort of denial when we’re in the group or relationship because this person is so wonderful this group is so amazing right there’s a balancing act
Between okay we’re not feeling so great yeah but we’re feeling wonderful right and it’s this like bouncing back and forth thing or we’re reminding ourselves constantly that we’re supposed to feel wonderful and we do little things to remind ourselves of how wonderful it
Used to feel so this so in a way I guess I’m suggesting there’s this sort of um accumulating trauma over right yeah yeah and what does that do to a person physically and psychologically yes so I can’t remember how in-depth we got about this in our last episode but I
Believe we talked at least Loosely about PTSD versus cptsd does that ring a bell yeah okay so when I talk about that with people um PTSD is what we would call single incident trauma so this thing happened this experience happened but there was a clear beginning and an end to that and
Then you know we kind of go along in life complex trauma is going to be ongoing persistent consistent inescapable threat and overwhelm for very long periods of time and it may not necessarily be these big incidences but it is kind of what you’re describing of like these almost like grading at you
Things that are consistently happening I usually put kind of like uh religious trauma Trauma from cults fundamentalism in that second category of complex trauma now there can be single incident trauma of course within that right we see clergy sexual abuse we see instances of physical assault we see a lot you
Know like very awful things incidences that happen and so we can have both of them but more often than not we have people that are really fitting that diagnosis of complex aama where they’re like gosh you know it wasn’t there wasn’t like this one big thing that
Happened to me it was this overtime and this was just the way of life and this was what was quote unquote normal and this was just my every day this is who I learned who I was you know and so I use that language because I think that that
Often resonates with people because in a therapeutic sense when we’re when I’m working with somebody that has PTSD that single incident trauma it is actually kind of therapeutically much easier to work with that person and resolve that trauma because we’re working on a specific Moment In Time versus the
Person who has so many moments that there’s absolutely no way we can get to all of those in a clinical setting um and I fit in that category too so I don’t want people to be like oh that’s a judgment or anything like no no no that’s me I’m telling you my diagnosis
Is cptsd um and so but but what we have to realize then is that in that every aspect of us is impacted now I certainly want to be clear to say religion does not always result in trauma Cults do not always result in trauma however they can right
And in many cases they do and or maybe it doesn’t result in trauma but maybe it does result in other mental health uh disorders and diseases and diagnoses so yeah religion cult does not equal trauma but it certainly can and when it does it most often is that complex trauma where
We are working kind of from a different space of um learning how to resolve how that lives in our body and recover in a different way um I use the word integration a lot it’s it’s about kind of this daily living um and and bringing ourselves con stantly into the present
Moment nope I’m not back there I’m here um and that’s you know there there’s a lot more exploration to do in that but that’s just kind of the highlevel piece that when we’re talking religious trauma we’re it’s usually complex trauma and and we use modalities for that um and
They they seem to be helpful awesome awesome no that’s a great explanation thank you for that um because there’s a couple Concepts there that we’re communicating I think are really super important for our I want to go next with this which is okay so you know you are normalizing behavior that is absolutely
Not normal and you have to do that to live in the denial you have to make excuses and make excuses and rationalize why it’s okay that this is happening why you’re locked up in a room writing down all of your crimes on a ream of paper because you really deserve this right
Because good for you because this is something you’re gonna this is going to help you spiritually even if it feels like complete other right now and that’s the kind of Scientology would do to you right and other high control groups they they do they literally do
That stuff to you yes uh and you get into a head space where you believe this is a deserved action that it’s on you that this is happening and that’s the what I mean by normalizing it is you is you come up with reasons why no this is
Perfectly normal and this is exactly what I should be doing when in fact it’s a completely traumatizing and completely abusive situation you should yes be connected with but when we get to that place it can be really hard when we finally break away and we’ve had this repeating pattern of abusive Behavior
This complex PTSD laid in I I’ve certainly experienced that as well right it has this whole band of symptoms that come with it with the nightmares and the terror and the anxiety and the you know the stress over things you shouldn’t even have to be stressing over but you
Are all this stuff right yeah we don’t recognize it because we’ve been working so hard for so long to normalize it that we don’t that we have now adapted to having this condition or having this problem and we don’t even see it for what it is and so I’m so we’re here
Sitting here defining it talking about it I’m wondering um this seems to be one of the problems and just getting a person who comes out of a situation like this to even recognize there is lasting problem problem yeah yeah what do what do you think about all that yeah I very
Much agree for real I mean I I’m thinking of a a session I had with a client where they were describing abuse that they had endured both in the family home as well as religion and then they started to see it in you know romantic relationships kind
Of this hindsight thing like oh this is what happened here and here and here and I I asked them one day I said I I’m sorry does your definition of Love include assault and they looked at me and they said doesn’t it like isn’t isn’t that
Part of what love is and and I and it was like one of these shocking moments um because this was the first time that this person had recognized or had you know been able to receive a message like abuse and love do not go together right
And and I wish I could say that was an isolated incident but that happens over and over and over with my clients and with people I talk to through social media and colleagues and friends and and all these things where there is just this like complete unawareness that what
I have been experiencing is not what we might consider normal quote unquote or healthy behavior these aren’t like conducive to actual healthy Rel relationships and autonomy and you know differentiation and things like that but but yeah we’ve we’ve never been taught anything different when I work with
Clients of domestic violence I know I keep bringing this up but there’s so many crossovers there are one of the things that we work on the the very first is what does it mean to have my own voice literally right because the voice of their abuser is often so loud
Or in this case we might say the church or the the group is so loud so when I want to do something or say something it’s their voice that’s in my ear going no no no you caused this no no no you’re wrong right and so one of the things we
Start with first is just getting curious about whose voice is that is that actually my voice or is it possible because that’s that’s the key there we always have to start with the possible the softest way that possible that we can go is it possible that could be
Somebody else’s voice right just even giving ourselves that little room for curiosity sometimes that can be too much sometimes we were like nope I I can’t even go there but oftentimes that’s a safer way to start is it possible that maybe that’s somebody else’s voice and what we start working towards is if
That’s somebody else’s voice then what is your voice what do you think what do you feel like bringing back a sense of self because the self capital S self has to be shut down completely and fragmented cut off in groups and relationships like this and so we start on that little piece of
Getting that part of self back my own voice and and I actually encourage my clients do not actually start using your voice like that can be a very dangerous thing we need to get to a point where then you feel safe enough to use your
Voice where if you do push back um that we’re not actually putting you in a more dangerous situation um and so there is kind of a a safety protocol that I really work with with a lot of my clients but we do start there because that voice of that person or those
People can be so incredibly loud that we mistake it for our own it’s a concept called introjection where we so we know projection is like when I take my emotions or thoughts or feel and I and I put them on you and I be like maybe I’m
Confused I’m like oh well Chris you seem very confused right and so I’m putting that on to you injection works the other way where I take what somebody else is saying about me and I internalize it to such a degree that I believe it is actually coming from within me so for me
That looked like you’re not worthy you’re not worthy you’re not worthy you’re not worthy turned into I’m not worthy I’m not worthy I am not worthy right and so yeah and so that’s we do a little challenging work there we we get some curiosity we try to create some
Space between who I am and what that message is and that in that space is where we get to work that’s where we start to go huh that’s interesting I wonder if I actually was born into this world believing that I wasn’t worthy you know and that can be a really beautiful
Moment yeah oh that’s great that’s a great breakdown of that and I want to ask a little bit more about something you said there because it’s the first time I’ve heard it put this way and I and I’m curious about what you have to say about this regarding this self is broken
Up you you described how the self is not a whole it’s broken into all these little pieces could you elaborate on that concept yeah um I’m drawing from the work here of Janina Fischer who’s an amazing therapist and researcher she wrote a book um called healing the healing the selves of the trauma
Survivors or healing the fragmented selves of the trauma survivors I can’t remember exactly the title but what she recognizes in it is that when we are in these situations of threat and overwhelm we have to cut off parts of ourselves kind of what she would say is fragment
Ourselves and live out of these tiny parts for survival sake so maybe that’s like a part of us that’s really able to please and ingratiate ourselves towards others or a part you know that kind of this little kid part meek and mild and you know or we kind of fragment our
Because the whole self can’t show up that’s not okay who I am is not okay just this little part of me is okay in a situation like this or this other little part of me is okay in a situation like this and so we end up living out of
Fragments of ourselves versus the whole self and so I really look at trauma healing work as learning how to bring those pieces back together to integrate those and live from a sense of wholeness to and really have to build that from the ground out for most people because
They’ve never been able to actually just show up as themselves especially for people that are grow you know born into groups like these you know they learn from a very young age here is what is okay and not okay about me and and so it really is like a reparenting almost of
Bringing those pieces back together um to create a version of capital S self oh I love that the reason I love so is because it feels to me for my way of thinking and looking at myself my own recovery and helping other people you
Know with the way that I try to do that there’s this model out there which is fine it’s perfectly fine model this is no criticism of it you know there’s this thing called The Bite model which uh which Dr Steve Hassan has put together
And you have this as a as a sort of an action model of behavior control and thought control and emotional control information control right but he talks about and he and he’s and he and he his sort of core uh concept with recovery is the prec cult personality and how you
Want to come back to that and and and and sort of um you know unlearn or or take away or get back to that that earlier personality of who you really are kind of thing but honestly to me what you just described as a more accurate rendition of I think what’s
Going on yeah because especially for second gens because we don’t have any pre- cult personality what the hell does that even mean when you’re born into the group or all your living memories or being part of the group there is no preul personality but the idea that there are different aspects of your
Personality that you are okay or it’s acceptable to show and there are other aspects of your personality that you have to suppress the crap out of that is 100% an accurate description of my lived experience and so I go y That’s it yeah like that I think that’s something we
Should talk more about that’s good yeah yeah I when I read her book and and that I’m like okay it is actually called healing the fragmented selves of the trauma Survivor Janina Fischer it it reads a bit like a textbook but it’s not a boring textbook I will say that but um
Whenever I read that it really was like a puzzle coming together like puzzle pieces fitting together and I was like and I it was funny I actually looked back in my journals and I was like like how did I not see that right like I was
Writing this like part of me feels like this and the other part of me feels like that and I feel right like these opposing things and whatever and so then to have her language and just kind of clinical understanding of how like dissociation is very much A coping
Mechanism and and when we fragment we’re dissociating ourselves or disassociating ourselves right and when it was so like I just remember having this giant exhale as I was reading her book because I was like well first of all damn my body did an amazing job of keeping me alive in some really
Awful situations but also there’s nothing wrong with me it’s just that I learned how to cope in a broken system that you know I was never I never should have had to be in in in the first place and so my body just needs to catch up a
Little bit and so we can start to realize hey we’re not back there you know and and that obviously it’s not as simple as that but it does offer us it gives us an invitation towards compassion uh to remove the shame from this this thing and to go truly who am I
Because I agree with you most of us do not have the pre-lt personality and I think that um while that model may work for people that you know grew up got into a cult got out um it doesn’t always speak to that that piece of like who am I um because this
Is all I’ve ever been and so it’s not a matter of coming back it’s a matter of figuring out you know and and unlocking those pieces of us that we’ve never actually been able to explore um so yeah I I love the language that she created around that that’s great I’m definitely
Using that in the future uh fractured self I think that’s that that’ll that’ll do it I’m GNA I’m gonna write that down I’m writing that down right now uh because this has no this has legs this is really good I’m gonna be able to use
This to to try to to help the you know second gens with this um and on that note moving forward into the recovery phase of this stuff right okay so there’s a thing that I’ve noticed that you and I were talking about before the show where without getting into a whole role on
This it’s just I noticed that there are conflicts that can happen between people when they come out of Cults right and they and they carry the cult language or the cult thinking or the cult mentalities with them and this is often used in a very it’s noticeable and it’s
A phenomena lots of people notice but they only notice it to a degree that they use it to insult people oh well you can take the guy out of the cult but you can’t take the cult out of the guy and it’s write off it’s a thought it becomes
A thought stopping cliche of oh well once an ult always an ult it’s an excuse to write people off I don’t I don’t want to go there that’s not what I’m talking about here yeah it’s a it’s a but it’s a legit statement yeah how is that yeah so I talk I
Actually call this embodied fundamentalism so I do actually have a term for it wow yeah yeah so the way I describe it is this when we are in a high control group uh I use the word fundamentalism here because fundamentalism is all about prescriptive thinking acting relating how I exist in
The world there’s it’s very binary there is right and wrong that’s a very fundamentalist attitude and here is what you have to do to be good and then everything else is bad so um most high control groups that that is how they operate is from a very fundamentalist
Standpoint so when we’re in a group like that we are not taught how to think we are only taught what to think we are not given tools to be critical thinkers to be curious to hold multiple um opinions and realities there is it’s very much
One right way this is it if you don’t believe this you are not a part of our group right so we have to believe that too then again get to continue those basic human needs being met Community Connection things like that so they’re overriding you know some of these innate
Abilities to be curious and you know have multiple relationships with multiple different people and you know whatever that are different from us um they take it and they say nope that’s wrong here’s just the that you live so let’s say you’re like you know what I’m
Done I do not believe this stuff anymore I’m going out into the world if we do not take the time to understand not only what we have believed but how those beliefs live inside our bodies what we are prone to do is recreate and and cult hop or fundamentalist hop where we move
Into other groups that are doing the exact same thing just with a different message so I see this often in social media spaces of former uh religious groups whether it’s X Mormon xjw ex scientologists ex evangelicals exf fundamentalists where we go okay I’m out and you know trying to figure out what
Happened to me and we’re with all these other traumatized people that are everybody’s like wildly triggering everybody else not because we’re trying to be malicious but because we literally have no idea a how to find safety within ourselves but be like how to relate to others in any way outside of outside of
This system and so what ends up happening then is we we do we build hierarchies and we we set people up on pedestals and we have certain things that you must believe and must do in order to be a safe person or you know a person who’s truly deconstructed from
That group and and we put a lot of rules and parameters around it that just mirrors everything that we’ve been a part of and and I have much compassion for that because I go I mean you’re trying you’re really trying but we haven’t understood the way that those
Things are embodied in US and so we’re just hurting each other even more uh even with our best of intentions we end up hurting each other and ourselves more and that’s why we see um you know I I call them Kabooms um in these groups where it’s like everything you know and
It’s and then we’re all kind of like whiplashed taken back of like what just happened I don’t feel particularly safe um I feel you know very hurt I feel very similar to how I did while I was in in that group but I thought I had left that
Group and and who can I trust and and I think so much of it is because we’ve still outsourced our Locust of control we’ve still outsourced who we listen to we’ve still said there’s a a perfect path forward that we have to we have to
Go on and we have to follow these rules and take these stances and if we don’t there’s something wrong with us or or we’re not an ally that’s a big one you know if you don’t believe these things you’re not an ally uh to this or that group and so I think
It’s so common that these things are recreated um and then we see like really the harm that comes out of them uh and again I do want to emphasize this is not because people are probably even trying to be controlling it’s just that is all they know in their bodies is to create
Sets of rules and follow them and then tell everybody else that you should follow this too um because this is the right way now to live and um yeah I have a lot of compassion um and it’s also not healthy exactly that Dynamic is not healthy yeah oh it’s the worst because
It’s because it really is a manifestation or it really looks like yeah you left the cult but you didn’t right you know you’re still acting like you’re in the cult but your beliefs are different but your actions are still the same yes and why would they be any
Different if you haven’t learned new habits if you haven’t learned new ways of dealing with things if you haven’t examined why and what it was in that group or relationship that kept you there that motivated you to stay there that finally what was the breaking point and why was that your Breaking Point
Really breaking this stuff down for yourself yeah yeah yeah you it’s worth the time yeah it’s only you yeah you know it’s it’s it’s only that whole reintegrating yourself I mean it’s you know and unfortunately we find people who will turn to Alternative solutions for this because of either their own you
Know self-destructive Tendencies or because the cult taught them or indoctrinated them that that that you know they get out of the cult and it’s like especially with groups like Scientology where well the last thing I’m going to go do is see a psych right right yes evil must be
Destroyed and you’ve belied that for so many years even if you come out of the group it’s an unquestioning belief unest belief yes we how how have you seen I mean obviously people who show up on your doorstep are seeking help but but what about those people out there who
Who kind of are like you know nah you know drugs alcohol other Solutions are doing me just fine what how do you deal with that yeah that’s hard because you know when we talk about like information control and you know really othering people outside of your group I think in
So many ways like the cycle the psychology field is like the first Target that you go after because these are the people that are asking you to tap into yourself instead of Outsourcing right so of course we would be the dangerous people and so I think that you
Know if there’s first of all I want to say it it seems entirely normal to me that there would be hesitations should I go to a therapist or not because here’s all the reasons that I’ve been taught that this is not a safe thing or that a
Therapist is going to try to change me or or whatnot um and I would say like examine that is that your so we go back to that concept of introjection did I was I actually born with the belief that a psychologist or a therapist or a
Counselor is an evil person who’s out to try and harm me and take captive of me or was that belief put there by somebody else and if it was put there by somebody else what are the other possibilities are there other possibilities that what if they’re wrong and if they are wrong
Then what right um and and I would say too one of the one of the beautiful Parts about social media is the access that we have to in some ways some free therapy not entirely therapy but but you know you can go online and you can look
Here’s what a a therapist says about this or that here’s what a therapist who understands cult Behavior says about this and perhaps I can kind of ease my way into that by going wow this person actually isn’t telling me what to think they’re not telling me that they have
The Solutions in fact they’re actually asking me to turn inwards and to see what is right for me um and and that might be a soft entry point into finding additional support um and you know I I do therapy and coaching and for a myriad of reasons I prefer coaching
But the one thing that I don’t like about coaching is that there’s not an oversight board there’s no ethical codes or anything like that and I though I don’t love all the rules of like the ethics you know and everything like that and and oversight it does provide a
Sense of safety for the client the Do no harm Part I love that piece about it uh there’s many other things about therapy that I don’t prefer which is why I do coaching but what I’ll say to that is a good therapist a good coach a good supporter is very uninterested in you
Believing like they do and doing life like they do I have no interest whatsoever in having my clients become many many little clones of me that would be first of all that would be so boring and you know like we don’t need that right like what I am
Interested in is walking alongside you as you figure out who you are and lean into that more and so that means that if you decide to continue being a part of a religion or a faith group or a spiritual practice or not at all or whatever
Decision is like I want to help lean into that with you if that is the choice you are making for yourself and so I think that then looking for a support person that you could trust to do that with you is really important um and to know that like
Ethically we are not allowed to like share you know we we’re not like well you know what you really need to do is what I do like that’s not an ethical therapist if that’s what they’re doing yeah yeah and so so you know there are therapists out there who are like that
Who will say well you know I think this is here’s what you have to do this is what the right thing is um be careful of those therapists that’s what I would say um but I think there’s a lot of other really well-meaning and interested therapists who are going I just want to
Help you and um I I don’t really care if you if we have matching values morals actions like I want you to live the fullest of your own life and your own choosing so I think it’s a process like anything and I I think it’s really hard
To seek out that help when you have been taught I mean hell like I was uh in the process of getting my license as a therapist and still had some of those beliefs about therapists about my own profession you know and really having to overcome that and uh and to say like
Actually no this is this is okay like this is this can be a really good thing and in fact it is leading me back home to myself um and that can that too can feel scary coming out of a high control group uh when we’ve been taught that the
Self is untrustworthy and um you know we C we it’s evil we cannot you know depend on ourselves and so then to have somebody pointing you back to yourself can be like uh I don’t know um but I think ultimately that is what leads to freedom for yourself and also freedom
For others oh absolutely I I wow that was great that was awesome great answer um because it’s you’re just naing it again and again and again on that um it’s really interesting to me and in thinking about what you’re saying and examining my own experience in Scientology in and out of it how
Many uh negations I’ll say are entered into your thinking self- negations are entered into your thinking as a result of being part of these high control groups where there’s all these little mantras there’s all these little sayings and everything that are always devaluing you your opinions your ideas don’t
Matter it’s the cult leaders and if you disagree it’s always going to default to what the cult leaders said or did uh always 100% of the time and and that framing is really important because it’s exactly I I love how you put it because it’s a it’s it’s the therapist role is
Not model yourself after me that’s the cult model yes yes that’s exactly what a cult is is it’s a guy or a woman or a group of people saying y’all are doing it wrong yes you gotta us right yeah yeah and the the and a good therapy and
This is a great way to judge this uh because I think to myself right now about some therapists who I have real strong disagreements with who will use their faith as the basis of their therapy or their counseling approach right and it’s all about reading Bible quotes and you know you’re not accepting
Jesus into your life and that’s the reason why you’re not recovering from this cult situation I have very very strong ethical uh you know problems with with that approach and yet there’s a ton of people who do it but if you’re but the whole Pro but the reason I have a
Problem with it actually is exactly what you just describe so well right they’re presenting themselves as the model for your good beh behavior and no one else is the model for your good beh you need to figure that out yes yeah yeah it is pretty wild I I sometimes ask I I teach
Uh undergraduate psychology classes and I I sometimes to I really like to challenge my students to think outside the box and so I will say you know because they’ll say oh well here’s like the right thing you know this is this is like a common human belief it’s just
What the truth is and and this is is how it should be applied in your life and and I’ll say okay so what happens when you have the client who comes in and says yes I actually believe that the same as you but I apply it in this way
Who’s right because you both said you believe the same thing but you have two different applications of this and it stumps them and they’re like I mean I know that I’m not supposed to say I’m right but I’ve never considered that before right you know and um and so it’s
Of fun to mess with them a little bit but I’m but I’m I’m really I I always tell them like I’m just trying to prepare you for like literal humans like like literally working with humans um and and they always end up appreciating that because they are really challenged
To look outside their own biases and what has been normal to them and um yeah I just I think that it’s so important to prioritize that in finding support whether that is through a therapist or a CO coach or a consultant or some other support person somebody who holds space
For you and can say yeah like I I’m so happy you found something that works for you and let’s lean further into that no it actually doesn’t matter what I think you know I want to know what you think right and um and who doesn’t take opportunities to try to create a dynamic
Of control within that relationship exactly because that’s kind of where that kind of is leaning toward and could very easily cross over into if um if you’re not careful yes you that this relationship this this this client therapist relationship thing is is so tender you know it can be because it’s
Not just a social relationship it’s got rules and it’s got things that that you know structures to it yes um and uh and it doesn’t always have to feel like it does I mean I’ve had very very you know yeah uh wonderfully emotive conversations with my therapist yeah yeah about our
Personal lives yeah but never about I don’t know anything about therapist personal life you know and I shouldn’t you know right I mean I think about like I just had a CL a session with a client recently where I know their entire history right I’ve worked with them for
A long time a huge history of trauma a a very um abusive marital relationship that they were able to get out of and do so much healing work and um got engaged to a wonderful partner over you know the holiday weekend or whatever it came as a
Total surprise to them and um and I like I started crying in the session because I was so happy because I I know the pain that was worked through and I know how many moments of hard stuff and suffering they had to deal with and how difficult
It was to be in a healthy relationship at first when all they had ever experienced was just pain and abuse and that their persistence is what got them to this point to be with this person who is incredible you know and um and so it’s like those are those are very human
Relationship moments um and I think that it’s really beautiful I love having those moments as um as a therapist and with my clients and um yeah I yeah I could say no to believe me I understand I’ve I’ve I again I don’t do therapy I do consultations but yes totally been there
Done that totally right because because it’s a what you’re doing it for it’s the whole core of the reason why you’re doing is to help you know yeah it’s yeah it’s it’s great work it’s so much fun to do when you when you have breakthroughs and and help yes H yeah it’s moments
Like that that you live for and you’re just like oh I I’m I’m not a parent and um I so I I and I’ll never have my own CH you know biological children but I’m like I imagine this is what it would be like when you see your kid who you’ve
Like been you know living with for the last 18 years and they’re launching off and you’re just so freaking proud of them because you’re like you did this like you got there and it’s just it’s like the best feeling ever I love it it’s it’s worth every painful hard
Moment to that you know that I grieve with them over I cry in those moments too and so it’s was beautiful to have celebratory tears because they I just I I love watching people have that and it it is so part of The Human Experience totally totally yeah um I
Think we’ve covered some good stuff today we yeah lots of ground is covered yeah yeah I think we’re I I think webe move toward wrapping up but I you know I I it’s not that I don’t have anything else to talk to you about it’s it’s that
I don’t want to overload my audience with too much stuff because there’s so much stuff here and this is really good stuff um because this is really super relevant to our communities and I and I want to and I hope that that’s coming across and what we’re talking about
Today that that there are the individual the healing the understanding the the the the integration as you I I I call it acclamation same concept right the coming back and into a social groups in a healthy way or trying to at least and trying to figure that out and bumping
Into ego problems and disagreements and then the real world stuff that just blows it all up ideological differences especially these days and we things up and we make them so important because in the cult all that stuff was super important and in the real world guess what it ain’t but
We act like it is yes yeah yes so anything I can do to try to you know throw some water onto some of those Flames I’m trying to do here you know yeah I love it thank you for your help today Laura it was really fun talking to
You oh it’s always a joy to be able to have conversations like this so thank you for having me back on you bet you bet and um and again let’s plug this thing where do people find you and where do they find your book okay so my book again
When religion hurts you is available for purchase anywhere you buy books uh and also there I should say there is an audio version as well um you can find me my website is Dr laurae anderson.com that’s also my Instagram handle Dr Laura e Anderson I have Tik Tok at the same
Thing I just don’t totally know how to use it um which is why I have a social media person who does um so I suppose you can also find me there um and then my company is the center for trauma resolution and Recovery we are trauma coaches um everybody has a background in
Mental health and may or may not have had a license at one time but has advanced trauma training and so we use the coaching modality for a variety of reasons uh not least of which is that we are then able to see clients from all over the world and one of the benefits
To what I believe one of the benefits to uh the company is that all of us understand dynamics of power and control Cults religious trauma adverse religious experiences fundamentalism so we start at a baseline of not having to convince us that what happened to you was that
Bad we already know and you don’t have to pay us to educate we don’t have you don’t have to pay us to for you to educate us on what actually happened and that tends to be a very a drawing point because then we can actually just jump
Into the work uh in a really meaningful way and so that is trauma resolution and recovery.com or you can find us on Instagram at trauma resolution and Recovery there you go okay and you’ll find links to those things in the show notes here so uh you can uh go right to
That and check those things out her site is quite awesome actually and she’s got some great resources there so do check that out if I say so myself um all right so again Laura thank you very much for your time really appreciate it and and I’m sure we will maybe talk
Again that’d be great thank you all right folks out there uh if you’re not subscribed please do so and uh share and love and uh all of that uh my work here and of course uh you can contact me for consultation and you can also support
The show uh PayPal pay you know buy me coffee whatever all the links below thank you very much for coming around and I’ll see you guys next week bye-bye
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