So the term revenge porn was something I had never heard of until several years ago when I was submitting live testimony for Jennifer’s law in Connecticut which ended up passing and included Revenge form as part of the coercive control that is uh part of the what’s covered by
Jennifer’s law in terms of protecting people and so today’s guest is going to talk about that and more including something called cyber sex abuse so uh welcome Lindsay L and please tell us who you are and what you do because it is something I had never heard of and I
Think a lot of people would benefit from finding out what you do and how you can help yes well thank you so much Lisa for having me on this podcast I’m so impressed by you and Chris and all the amazing work that you guys do um have
Been there got out so I’m thrilled to be here I am an attorney and I specialize in representing victims of sexual violence and also cyber sexual violence of which revenge porn is one of those more um commonly um thought of examples yeah now I’m revenge porn really stood out in my head because
Several years ago Chris and I went to Barbados we were actually training attorneys and domestic violence Advocates over there and when we started talking about revenge porn we found out that many of the people in that room had actually been affected by it it’s a huge thing in
Barbados it’s a huge thing all over the world and it’s also relatively new in the sense that since internet and digital cyber has come to be um it’s been it’s become a lot more easy to do so just to Define it real quick um I like to put revenge porn in quotes
Because it’s not a a great way of referring to what’s happening it’s basically the non-consensual distribution of another person’s naked or sexual or intimate photos or videos um it’s a huge violation it’s happening everywhere I I think a study in 2016 reported that already by 2016 10 million Americans had
Already become victim to it and that’s just Americans that’s just Americans um um and yet the laws have been really slow to keep up with these types of cyber sex crimes so revenge porn specifically is still actually legal in two states in our country what yep Massachusetts which is shocking to
People um they are just about ready to pass a law um currently it should happen soon hopefully and also South Carolina and um that’s just one of the many issues with um with the legal system when it comes to cyber sex abuse crimes um another being that there’s no federal law yet
There’s no federal crime so oftentimes when we think about cyber sex abuse you think about a lot of crossing of jurisdictions because a person or perpetrator in one state could be um hurting and and harassing a person in another state and depending on the state’s laws and the law enforcement’s
Willingness to take these cases and investigate it would be really helpful if we had a Federal Criminal statute that could cover all of these situations wow okay well talk about what exactly is cyber sex abuse like some other examples and also what what you
Do so cyber sex abuse um is a big broad term that covers basically any type of behav Behavior online where a perpetrator is using Tech or um or an internet connection to um to cause harm in a sexual Manner and like the type of like a sexual violation so while revenge
Porn or um image-based sexual abuse is one of the very common types another very common type that we often see in cases of domestic violence is called sextortion and sextortion is like extortion or blackmail and it’s when the perpetrator uses the threat of revenge porn in order to maintain that leverage
And control and keep their partner in an otherwise abusive relationship wow okay so when you talked about causing harm when we were doing the conference in Barbados and the participants were sharing about how revenge porn um harmed them they gave me some surprising answers which I hadn’t
Considered can you talk about how re how cyber sex crimes cause harm to the victim but also not only to the victim absolutely um what we generally see happen is when a perpetrator commits this kind of crime against his partner or his ex partner they do so in a way to
Cause as much harm as possible so let’s say they take someone’s naked picture or video and they post it online maybe on a porn website often times it’s not just the picture or the video that’s posted but they’re identifying information as well so now not only is this person’s
Private content out there but her social media handles and maybe her address maybe her telephone number are published alongside of it so we all know how hard it can be to to get content removed from the internet and so what happens is a person winds up with this permanent digital record of
This very private sexual violation and they’re identifying information accompanied uh to it so the harm is humiliation uh lack of self-esteem fear I’ve had clients who wind up with stalkers because they have access to this information and this and this sexual content and they wind up going after my
Clients um victims of of revenge porn report depression anxiety it can impact your career because if your Google search results show your naked intimate content then it’s going to cause employers to to take a second thought before hiring you or before offering you that interview um and there’s been terribly
Drastic tragedies in which people have been so impacted by cyber sex abuse crimes that they’ve gone to such extremes of taking their own lives and I’m I’m curious to hear what what kind of uh response you got in in Barbados when you ran that okay well first of all
And I wrote it down because of course I’m a major notetaker and as you’re talking I’m thinking of things I want to say as well but um we have had a few clients who have had to deal with cyber sex crimes and revenge porn but in Barbados they mentioned something that
You didn’t mention and that’s the way that the families of victims were affected because Community is uh very important in this particular culture and in in many parts of the world when something happens to somebody it affects their family and it brings a tremendous amount of Shame so again it’s not just
The victim and the victim’s job but the people connected to them and in Barbados uh church is is like a huge part of their lives and so people talk all the time and so everyone is affected yes absolutely and I was going to say religion can also play a part in it and
I find that perpetrators will uh specifically violate their Partners in certain ways knowing what the religious like attitude is towards sexuality or nudity and that can cause even more harm based on the victim’s family members and what their morals and values are so for them to find out that there’s a naked
Picture of their child their their um you know daughter or son can be even more devastating for for the client the family um and of course in cases of domestic violence and divorce this often comes up and is quite complicated because if there are children involved and we’re bringing up issues of sexual
Privacy violations and naked pictures and videos of course all parties are conscious of the impact that it could have on the children um um and also in my opinion in most cases still needs to be brought up in one way or another and accounted for because it’s such a
Serious offense to commit against somebody you know you’re reminding me of a client we had um maybe a year or two ago and she had filed restraining ORD she had been granted restraining orders her ex was posting all kinds of nude pictures and committing revenge porn and he was continuing to violate the
Restraining orders and she was getting so frustrated it was a family court situation I don’t remember how much criminal was involved but it was like no matter what pieces of paper she had her ex was violating and nothing was happening and of course this was making
Her more and more upset she had young children and it just took over her whole life absolutely and it’s terrifying and assuming she wasn’t in Massachusetts or South Carolina she could have and hopefully you know at some point learned she could go to the police she could
Hire an attorney like myself um I represent victims of these kinds of sexual privacy violations and sometimes when you’re reaching dead ends and not getting the help you need in family court with the restraining order there are other options and there are other things that that someone can
Do unfortunately the court systems and even law enforcement they aren’t as familiar with these kinds of crimes because they’re relatively new and still evolving so often times survivors of these crimes need an advocate need an attorney or somebody on their side explaining to the court or explaining to their own divorce lawyer
Or explaining to the police what crime was committed why this is important what the consequences need to be and and help that Survivor to get safe and and get um proper restrictions of his behavior in place I mean that’s just absurd you know so it sounds like part of your job
Really involves educating professionals through your clients individual cases yes so let me thank you for asking let me clarify so I don’t represent um anyone in divorce cases I don’t practice matrimonial law but I do work on divorce cases as a consultant and as um co-council in a sense where I can
Partner with the divorce attorney to like you said educate and explain and contextualize some of these issues that often come up but many attorneys don’t feel equipped to handle like how do we deal with cyber sexual privacy violations in divorce and custody because it’s complicated and how do we
Explain to the judge how serious this is and and it’s it’s very nuanced and it’s very Niche and um and I find that it’s really it can be very helpful for people navigating divorce to have that sort of backup to have more of the The Advocate
To work with them um to get Justice yeah I’m thinking about how so many divorce attorneys specialize in matrimonial law but with these Niche situations they might not be on top of the latest laws that’s actually in our book we a we have a section on what kinds of questions to
Ask a prospective attorney and after the book came up someone said ask the attorney or actually no it was in the book for that for that printing they said’ make sure to ask your attorney how they stay on top of the laws the latest laws but I imagine there’s so many laws
That come out all the time how can anyone stay on top of it when you have another lawyer coming in to educate it’s really helpful just like people who are getting divorced who own a business together we’ve been told by a business attorney you need to it’s like two
Divorces you need to have your regular divorce attorney but you really need a business attorney to help teach the family lawyer about the the details of the case because that’s significant in this particular situation absolutely and also not only are the laws evolving and new and um it can be very helpful to
Have someone that’s up to date on the laws but it’s also really important to be up to date on the myths and the attitudes that we all are holding um about these kinds of offenses so for example just how in the past and maybe even now people would ask victims
Of sexual assault and rape you know why did she wear such a short skirt if she didn’t want to be hurt or she didn’t want to be violated unfortunately people nowadays ask well why did she take a naked picture why did she create that content if she didn’t want to be
Published all over the internet and so sadly people still have these very outdated um ideas and judgments mostly and oftentimes affecting women in particular although I do represent men as well um and it’s it’s very important that lawyers understand these issues and how to lawyer in a way that isn’t uh
Judgmental and um and doesn’t re-traumatize their clients because they understand how Society works now why the laws are what they are and why what why we can’t victim blame right and also I’m thinking artificial intelligence you don’t even need to take a naked picture tell us about how artificial
Intelligence is affecting this because nobody seems to be able to keep up with that exactly um it’s a great point so even somebody who’s never taken a naked picture of themselves or a naked video um has never even thought about sending any type of content like that isn’t
Actually safe anymore from this kind of threat and that’s because like you said artificial intelligence allows somebody who wants to harm you to take to use Tech to to do that to create revenge porn they can actually take a picture of your face or a video of you talking and
Attach it to another person’s naked body and the tech is so good now that that it looks like it’s your naked body um and reports are finding that the kind of pain and suffering that somebody experiences even if it’s not their body can be just as bad as if it were their
Body because to everyone else who’s seeing it it appears to be them and it’s such a such a violation um states are starting to recognize this as a crime and so a handful of states have now now been passing uh legislation to criminalize the creation of deep fake um pornography
Which is another way to refer to that right yeah and I was thinking um about artificial intelligence in general in terms of evidence and truth and are it’s frightening because I feel like how how is anyone ever going to be able to present evidence and get through cases
Quickly when we don’t even know what’s real anymore right and what can we rely on and unfortunately so far in my cases where I’ve had situations like that it winds up being that you need to bring in expensive forensic Witnesses and you you need and and hopefully it shouldn’t have
To be that way hopefully we get to a point where law enforcement has the training and the police can actually uncover these cyber crimes better um because if they have the evidence I mean it’s it’s a crime and so then that evidence can be used in family court or
In whatever other proceedings are going on um but what I find is that oftentimes the police don’t want to deal with these cases because they’re so um like technological and and it’s it’s hard to to investigate these cases and they don’t necessarily have the resources or the knoow um to take on
These these complex cyber crime cases yeah we have interviewed a man named dance long several times who is he’s like a cyber security expert and he is working directly with police departments as quickly as possible be saying that’s that’s who we really need to train because nobody can keep up with this
Exactly exactly and that’s really frightening for survivors and it’s frightening for survivors whose pictures and videos are out there or who are in a relationship with somebody who’s using pictures and videos to keep them in the relationship ship through that coercive control and and um and and blackmail yeah now um so
Talk a little more about coercive control and how that impacts what you do so um amazing work getting Jennifer’s law passed in Connecticut um as you know and I’m sure many of your listeners know coercive control is it’s the Unseen form of domestic violence it doesn’t leave black
And blues or bruises and so it’s the psychological emotional um sometimes Financial abuse that that happens in domestic violence relationships but it can be hard to spot it can be hard to prove it can be hard for people who aren’t in our industry to even understand because it’s not
Necessarily seen as physical abuse is and um also it’s just starting to wind up becoming um criminal in many states as you know it’s not even a way that anyone can get legal recourse in some states it’s criminal some states it’s um a basis to get an order of protection but in many
States it’s not even like on their radar and yet it’s such a common and devastating form of abuse so with me and my background working with victims of domestic violence and sexual violence um being trauma sensitive and Trauma informed I understand the nuances of coercive control and so again when it
Comes to domestic violence and divorce I’m able to work with divorce attorne so that they can help their clients really um really navigate those complicated cases in the the way the best way possible for their client for the victim of of that abuse um in cases where maybe there’s not a
Divorce uh maybe it’s a boyfriend girlfriend situation or ex I’ll help my clients by taking them to family court and I I’ll get restraining orders for them and also in some cases there there might be a lawsuit that can be brought or there might be criminal charges and I
Can um I can advocate for my client with the police in order for them to take police action um so and that’s of course with cyber sex abuse sexual assault and to the extent that there are laws on the books in that jurisdiction for coercive control yeah I mean coercive control in
My mind um we’ve done some presentations on it but it’s it actually goes against the US Constitution because it’s a it’s a liberty crime and like you said uh just like with revenge porn where just the threat of doing something is a way to keep someone dependent on another
Person and anything that somebody else does which keeps you dependent on them it’s you talked about financial Etc just even that threat is is is harming someone it doesn’t allow us to have our individual freedom and so again it’s it may be invisible but I think you know
Especially for an attorney like you you can help make those cases that say it’s not physical but it’s it’s possibly even more powerful of crime because of these particular ways this person is not allowed to live independently absolutely absolutely and um it’s it’s not seen so it has to be
Explained it has to be explained not just the legal aspects of it but also the psychological aspects and the emotional aspects so um I mean that’s all part of it and it’s wild I know that there’s a lot of controversy about it and passing this kind of legis islation like you said like
Um it’s not it’s not that popular in a lot of jurisdictions yeah that surprised me I’ve I’ve interviewed and spoken with attorneys who said we don’t want coercive control laws in the testimony for Jennifer’s law um some major domestic violence organ organizations in the state of Connecticut we’re saying we
Don’t really support it because we fear that it can be used against victims and it has been of course right and every every Avenue towards Justice that is available to victims can be used against them we see that when people go and get a restraining order against their victim
And use all the time the justice system as a sword um which is why it’s so important that the attorneys handling these cases understand the relationship understand what abuse looks like so that they can argue that they can point that out that that becomes part of the case
Um in order to to write the wrongs yeah now people are often scared of hiring a lawyer especially with something like this can you talk a little bit about that as well as the importance of trauma sensitive lawyering yes um I’ve had friends who have had situations where they’ve
Possibly wanted to hire attorneys and they call me and they’re so scared and it’s funny because I’ve been a lawyer for over a decade so I I um I can’t relate to the fear but I understand because so many people I talk to are afraid and I imagine it’s because um
People assume that lawyers are scary that people assume that you only go to a lawyer when you’re in trouble um people don’t realize that lawyers like me exist specifically focusing on victim’s rights so oftentimes when something bad happens to somebody they’re Googling and they’re looking for a lawyer but they only find
The prosecutor who um represents the government and and pursues the crime against the defendant and then they see defense attorneys but this victim hasn’t done anything wrong and so um they’re entitled to representation and they’re entitled to um legal they have legal rights they have legal options and they don’t really
Know that we exist um I think people also think that just to call a law firm will cost them money and of course um some cases some law firms I I offer free consultations so many law firms do offer that free time to just talk through the issue and and
See if the lawyer can work with the the client that’s amazing pause right there because I think yes many people assume you are going to be paying hundreds if not more because we’re in New York uh thousands of dollars for an hour consult so um that’s incredible that you offer a free consult
Yeah absolutely um and I think it’s starting to become more and more rare as I as I hear um through the gra Vine but I just think it’s so important to avoid and and also it’s important to say that for some cases that I handle maybe it
Does wind up being a billable case where they will pay for my services if they choose to but in other cases um it could be a contingency lawsuit so lawsuits can be brought on behalf of survivors of sexual violence and cyber sexual abuse um for monetary damages and in those
Cases oftentimes um a lawyer would take the case on contingency and the client doesn’t have to pay until until and unless there’s a settlement or a verdict and money is recovered for them wow that’s amazing I’m so glad that we’re talking and that people are be able to
To learn a lot during this interview because again like you said people don’t even realize that there’s lawyers like you out there and they don’t realize that they could possibly have a free conversation just to find out their rights instead of thinking I don’t have thousands and thousands of dollars to
Spend so I’m not even going to bother um trying to protect myself exactly exactly well I’m so glad to to spread the word and then you also asked about trauma-informed lawyering um and so that’s huge and that’s something that I um I’m actually spreading throughout other law firms as well so I’m going
Into law firms and teaching other lawyers and their staff how to be more trauma informed trauma sensitive with their clients and their potential clients um it’s critical it it basically it it assumes and recognizes that the person with whom we’re talking has experienced trauma and especially if
They’re coming to you because they need a lawyer they most likely have even if it’s not sexual violence or domestic violence it could be a car accident and that person has suffered trauma and so recognizing that and accounting for that and communicating with them in a way
That makes them feel safe and empowered and avoids retraumatization informed care when it comes to the the legal system um I’ve had my own experiences talking to lawyers and feeling like oh my gosh I would never refer a client to La fir I can’t believe they just talk to me like
That and I’m a lawyer um and I just My Philosophy is that nobody should ever leave a law firm feeling worse off than they did before they got that call before they talked to that law firm um there’s just no reason for that so um so yeah I you’re saying that and I’m
Thinking of how many I mean you know we only deal with high conflict divorce post-separation issues and um and you know separation as well and you would not believe the amount of trauma that is uh compounded for our clients by their own attorneys sometimes with
The way that they speak to them yell at them um threaten to leave them during try it’s just it’s astonishing and I think it’s so important to train lawyers like that I as you’re talking I’m like you know that’s kind of what Chris and I have done when we’ve done lunch and
Learns obviously we’re not attorneys but we are trauma informed and we position it to to lawyer sometimes because they’re like why do I want to listen to a divorce Co high conflict divorce coach is here here’s ways that you can actually retain your clients because clients need attorneys that are more
Sensitive and they are going to walk away our many of our clients are on their third lawyer or more and a lot of it has to do with the treatment um that they faced during other trauma and throughout these these year-long you know yearslong cases that they’re stuck
In in legal system absolutely and I think that’s a really important part of being a lawyer that a lot of people don’t recognize you know we hear about like bulldogs and shark lawyers and like oh they’re going to fight and they’re going to like crush it in court but
There’s like a whole other part of being a lawyer which is to be able to get along and support your client and Empower them and make them feel safe after what was probably a very scary and traumatizing experience um and for a lot of lawyers it doesn’t come naturally
And it’s not something that’s taught in school um and I think a lot of lawyers think like well I’m not a therapist you know let let the client go get a therapy I’m not going to be able to help with that but I have a completely different
Perspective I think as a lawyer we have a duty to to be compassionate and supportive of our clients and there is some overlap with offering that compassion and care and concern for them as human beings and I agree with you with your point that it’s in their interest right to learn these skills
Because they’ll retain their clients they’ll get better reviews they’ll get um better they’ll it’ll impact their reputation in a positive way um and it’s just it’s good for business and it’s good for people right it’s win-win I know and and and I have to say so many
People when they meet us or even beforehand they’ll send us messages saying do you know a lawy laer who gets it do you know and we call them the unicorns like the ones who understand what I’m going through it it’s really an attractive trait if not one of the top
Traits that our clients all look for they they want to feel heard they want to feel understood they’re not looking for I mean many of us including me in the past have treated our lawyers like they’re are therapists because they know so much about our lives and we’re in the
Middle of this chaos but it is helpful to have a lawyer that is sensitive absolutely and that’s why it can be a good collaboration for me to come on board to be part of the team so that I can do for example more of the client
Facing work to work with the client and then give the information to the divorce attorney so that they can go to court and and and argue the divorce but for that client management it’s just so critical um and that’s a nice place where I can come in and be be helpful to
Other divorce attorneys but I just had a a client last week who was just having a day and she was she was really angry with me and she was just emoting and then finally she said this is my trauma this is this is not you this is my
Trauma I’ve been I’ve been acting like this with my family my friends and I said I totally get it I of course like let’s work through this together we can we can figure this out and um it was just a a recent relevant example of of and then you know and then
We wound up connecting even greater after we we put that out there we got it out we hash it out and then there was even more connection and with that connection comes trust and comes more um honesty and building your case better and and and ultimately winding up with
With the most successful um outcomes yeah and with that and we had an experience like that U with a client who seemed like she was getting really angry at us and then we worked through it and it also brought us closer but I think that that is also a way to empower our
Our clients to um to to develop their confidence in terms of conflict resolution also because we see it go where they just clash and they say I’m moving to another attorney I I can’t deal with this person it’s an important skill to learn that even if you disagree
Or if you butt heads that there’s ways to work through it together and not just end the relationship absolutely absolutely so you can kind of develop all of these skills right um in this representation which is so cool it’s like such a awesome that like for such a
Bad experience to happen to be able to then learn so much and develop skills and tools that you can use for the rest of your life I mean it’s I I love my work I feel like it’s an opportunity to really make people’s lives so much
Better in so many ways you know some people want legal action they want lawsuits and criminal arrests and some people just want to be heard and they want to know what their rights are and they want to be they want to know that they’re not alone and that they have
Options even if they choose not to take them they want to feel empowered um and I like to think that that’s what I do for my clients and I I love it it’s really rewarding yeah you you sound like me I ex you sound like you’re taking the
Words out of my mouth that’s exactly the kinds of things that I say well before I for forget I know that um you’ve you’ve talked often about uh victims and you’ve said she but one of the things that you told me that was a little bit surprising
Is that you do represent men how can men be victims of revenge porn or cyber sex um yeah great question it is it is true I see it less in divorce cases specifically but it is important to spread awareness that men more often than women wind up being uh victims of
These online sextortion scams more often than women you just said more often than women right yes that’s wow it’s a very specific type of case but men are um potentially more likely or willing to put their guard down when communicating online with somebody so they might believe that the person
They’re communicating with is the let’s say very attractive woman whose picture they see but in reality we don’t really know who’s behind that identity who’s communicating this is like the catfish the whole catfish thing I love I love that series exactly so they wind up tricking people oftentimes men into
Exposing themselves whether it’s masturbating or sharing Secrets um and as soon as they give over that leverage that give something of value to the um scammer on the other end then then the threats start and it’s you know pay me $55,000 or I’m going to release this video of you masturbating to your
Employees or I’m gonna uh tell your wife that you’re having an affair and so oftentimes we see um men become victims of these kinds of crimes and they have no idea where to go or what to do there’s a lot of Shame and humiliation involved so they’re unlikely to go and
Ask for help they don’t know where to go um and yet there’s help out there so these are the kinds of cases that I can help with um oftentimes when they go to the police the police aren’t able to take these cases because they’re so common and oftentimes the extorter is
Overseas somewhere in like a basement or even in like a scam Factory where they’re just doing this to millions of people um scam Factory what can you explain that a little bit I’m like I have an image all of a sudden and what is a scam Factory it’s so sad but in
Other countries people are basically imprisoned in factories in which they’re forced to go online and pretend to be people that they’re not and trick unsuspecting internet users into providing naked pictures or videos and then extort them for money are there certain areas of the world where this is more common
Um yes I want to say Thailand is the country that I heard most recently had these um had these like factories wow know it’s so it’s so it’s horrible so the scale is is huge but there’s a lot of like Crisis management that I can do with my clients when this
Comes up and I can help them get through the situation and I can Empower them with the information that they need in order to understand like can I do something and what does that look like and how do I get ahead of this if I need
To and what are the chances that this does get um published and I am exposed so there’s a lot of strategy work there yeah so Lindsay you had said that um a lot of people think that this could never happen to them but it can happen
To anybody are there any ways that the regular person can try to protect themselves or are we all just vulnerable targets depending on who we get involved with or think we’re getting involved with right we can never know and I’m the last person to ever say like you have to
Be smart and Discerning because that’s putting the burden on the victim and I’m not going to do that right um so we have to be we have to understand that these things are going to happen um one of the one of my efforts and one of the things
I’m doing in my business is I’m going into schools and to like parent groups and trying to educate the Next Generation about cyber safety and how to be a responsible digital citizen um because my hope is that future Generations will grow up with just like a better more moral mindset and like
More informed approach towards using the internet um and so that’s my hope especially because I’ve got two little kids at home I’m hoping that they grow up in a safer World um obviously you know there are resources out there there are attorneys to help after something
Bad happens but prevention is a huge a huge part of my goals and so I also go into colleges and I um teach Greek organizations like sororities and fraternities about smart safe cyber use um and again law enforcement trainings there’s just there’s so much education that needs to
Be happening that can happen um and so I’m hoping that the more we can do that and I know you guys are doing that too it’s so cool we should collaborate I was as we were talking I’m like okay there’s three attorneys I need to introduce her
To I got to get her for the course I’d love to work with you I mean we’re doing really similar overlapping work and um that would be amazing so yeah so that’s my hope for a a brighter safer future yeah it’s very exciting and you know from one Optimus to another it’s
It’s it’s uh yeah I love when hope is passed around instead of just the Doom exactly exactly yeah very exciting okay so Lindsay how can people find you uh my website is lindsy liberman dcom I’m lindsy liberman Esq on Instagram I’ve got LinkedIn um and I welcome any
Calls or questions um connections and I’m thank you again Lisa so much for having me no thank you so much and I am definitely GNA follow up my brain is spinning with ideas wonderful such a pleasure yeah okay we’ll talk soon bye bye bye
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