Welcome back to another episode of the corporate Cowboys podcast as always my name is Alex your host a little proof of life and we’ll Dive Right In today is Sunday April 30 the Lord’s Day 2023 and if you don’t know the form of this podcast it’s a free 30-minute
Consult so join us as we explore your options well in general General options for career development for professional development strategies to move up or through or past corporate if that’s what you want to do right so we pull these questions from everywhere online for the most part
Reddit but before we dive in quick legal disclaimers that anything that we post across our social medias be it in the form of opinions or general advice should not be construed to be legal advice right we’re professionals after all so we do not promote we do not condone any wrongful activity or any
Wrongdoing it if you need help or you know someone who does would like to explore your options need additional perspective from a corporate Cowboy reach out to us we’re on Instagram at corporates Cowboys with a z you can find us on patreon that’s the corporate Cowboys podcast and there are uh a
Number of donation links we got cash at venmo uh PayPal if you want to help keep this podcast free which it shall be but any monies that come through will go towards business expenses legal fees office supplies bullets ammo that sort of thing guns and knives um today’s question is coming from r
Slash career guidance and they’re asking for advice they’ve flared it so typically sometimes sometimes folks might go on to Reddit and you know just [ __ ] whine complain vent out their issues and their struggles with corporate or at work or on the job just trying to find better employment or better compensation need
Help how to negotiate professional moves right the title for this one is saying should I leave my company should I leave my company without finishing a project after being excluded and treated in a weird way [Laughter] okay okay so you’re gonna leave the company without even finishing your work
Because you were being excluded excluded in how in what way in what fashion if you’re not being given credit that might be an issue right say you are contributing and maybe they’re trying to slight you in some way and you’re professional portfolio is going to suffer you know you won’t be able to
Claim it on your portfolio because your name won’t be on it so if Alex’s name isn’t on this they can’t claim they contributed to it and I mean in real life there are a number of things I don’t want my name to show up on be it
Contracts be it uh and certain back smoke-filled rooms uh where deals are being brokered I don’t want my name to pop up right there’s certain things that I do where I would much rather leave on a neutral and leave our neutral footing I mean because to me sometimes it feels
Like a form of vandalism like Alex was here right but if you’re on a team and say you are leading a project you’re like the lead on a project you’re a project manager and your employer chooses not to include your name right and that’s like an industry standard like just standard
Practice that it should be then then that might be a cause for concern maybe something is going on behind the scenes that you’re not aware of and that you should be you should be foreign contingencies for right and being treated in a weird way I mean
That sounds weird just the way you said it and so that’s ultimately idiosyncratic that’s that’s that’s personal that’s something subjective that’s something only you can put a name on right so what’s weird to you might not be weird to me there’s a difference between professional and unprofessional right or respect and disrespectful but
Being treated weird I mean maybe uh maybe I mean we don’t know we don’t know how long this hypothetical client has even been with the company maybe they don’t know their policies and procedures and they think you know because something was enacted or there is a a policy in play now that it’s
Weird right so we don’t know the the background so let’s get started reading right I like to take the title and pull whatever inferences I can in the moment I mean and I might come back I might come back and pull more but I’m just giving you the inside of look on
On a template or a blueprint for advising a real life client which we’re treating this one the one that you’re listening to now as a hypothetical client so that’s why everything everything with the grain of salt unless you have the client in front of you you can ask them and interview
Them and use follow-up questions to extract the information that you need to better inform your opinion and create a strategy so they’re saying hi Reddit hi Reddit I’m a junior specialist who’s been doing a mandatory unpaid internship a mandatory unpaid internship at a small company for the past eight months
Man that first sentence just smacks of uh of entitlement somehow they’re okay they’re a junior specialist right so they’re not even they’re kind of exposing themselves as not being in a supervisory position they’re not in any Superior rule like a junior specialist is like I mean at least in my experience
Sounds like a support rule like an auxiliary rule you expect oh no credit because just because your ass was in the seat or you showed up and did what you were told nah I mean I could I could see it if the knowledge is highly technical or they
Require some form of expertise from you and in that case uh you might be moving like I do like an independent contractor negotiating uh contract to contract and sometimes you want your name to show up so sometimes you want that recognition and sometimes you do not right but if you
Are on top of that this is a mandatory unpaid internship I don’t know what you’re expecting I mean some kind of participation trophy they say I’ve been working remotely for most of the time and overall I’ve enjoyed working with the team and my boss who’s been mentoring me since day one
Before I accepted the internship offer I ex I asked if there was a chance of being hired if I did well and I received a positive answer however two months ago when I asked my boss again about the possibility of being hired the company took a week to
Think and eventually the com what the company The company took this is poorly written The company took a week to think and eventually said they would hire a senior specialist For an upcoming project instead of me that doesn’t sound that doesn’t sound weird to me I mean if they want someone
Leading a project they’re going to get a senior Specialist or someone who has experience this is only your internship right now bear in mind keep in mind that we don’t know the educational or or professional background of this hypothetical client they might be someone in their 40s who’s uh who’s got
A number of projects under their belt or who might have tenured at another company and has managed projects in the past right so or there might be a brand spanking new just got out of college no previous work experience and now they expect to be handed to the world so they say
Two months ago they said uh the senior specialist For an upcoming project instead of me I was disappointed but I understood and decided to start looking for jobs elsewhere I mean I guess if you’re disappointed I I understand I understand it sounds like a newbie mentality but we don’t know the extent
Of the Rapport that they may have developed with the company higher ups right so if the team was taking really well to how they worked with them with our hypothetical clients and the hypothetical clients was really settling in they were learning all of the systems they were learning the policies and the procedures
I I get it I understand it feels it feels a bit like betrayal like you you thought you were a part of the team especially because you showed up you were um you were very active you took the initiative on top of being unpaid right so it feels like you’re
Volunteering granted granted the saying that this was mandatory but I mean that Loki feels like a volunteer position just to get the experience and you were hoping for a job whether or not that was at the junior or the senior specialist level that’s um that’s that’s I mean that’s personal that
Really that’s personal just how much Rapport you could have built the kind of trust and confidence you could have developed with the hiring committee or with management or with your mentor to have them go to bat for you and give you a shot so they say however
Uh oh no no sorry then then two weeks ago the company approached me about a new big project they wanted me to take on I reminded them that I only had one month left of my internship but they said they would pay me if the project
Took longer than four weeks I agreed to work on the project because I found it interesting uh so far so good uh you know as uh as an aspiring professional I like the fact that our hypothetical client here uh set their limits set their balance put their boundaries up
And said you know what my internship is up in a month so I mean I don’t know if they said explicitly if if you expect me to stay on longer then you gotta you know pay me but uh the company came out and said it so I hope that the
Hypothetical clients here got that in writing if they didn’t get it in writing who’s to say the company owes you a dime so they said however things got weird when I mentioned to the CEO and other leaders during a meeting that I had an upcoming interview with a big Tech Fan
Company Bank big Tech what is that Facebook Facebook Apple Facebook Apple Amazon Netflix Google right I think is this still Facebook wouldn’t it be mang meta their reaction was strange as if they weren’t aware of my job search after that the leaders started to manage me directly even messaging me during
Weekends while my boss seemed unaware of the situation at the same time the CEO ignored my messages and questions and I had to ask my boss to help get an answer from them okay so yeah you’re working on a big project and your managers one situation reports
Um I don’t know how experienced you are in managing your managers which I I believe I have an episode in season seven season seven or season eight see I think it’s season seven where service doesn’t only go down or doesn’t only go out right this this notion of customer
Service this service goes in into the organization also and it goes up up the organization up the ladder so you have to learn how to manage others expectations and not have them Hound you and be on your ass all the time right especially if you feel like like they’re
Trying to put the squeeze on you and micromanage every little move you make you know it’s understandable that this is a big project there might be a lot riding on it but it doesn’t mean that that your autonomy to do the job how you know how to do it is just discounted
Because you’re you’re unpaid because you’re just the like an unpaid drone another Cog on the wheel with no name no face that’s that’s not the case that’s not the case you’re if anything anything you’re still trying to make a case to remain with them to get hired on
Right so you have to um you have to move like a professional you have to move like a professional in more ways than one and it’s not just about uh handing up deliverables there’s a service component to most all aspects of corporate so they say recently the company posted an investor
Presentation that featured information about all of my co-workers including interns and people hired through Outsourcing companies but excluded me when I reacted with a thinking Emoji they deleted it I’m starting to feel excluded and bullied and am struggling with the projects they want me to work on but at the same time
I feel like I’m throwing my boss and the rest of the team under the bus am I the [ __ ] for thinking that this situation is weird and for wanting to quit before finishing the project I appreciate your advice okay I see see what the hypothetical client is getting at right so they’ve had
They’ve had conversations early on in the internship and I I feel like most places they have the shame the the shame the shame it is a shame the same Spiel where if you work hard enough and you show you are capable of doing the job then they may offer you a position and
Keep you on right that’s that’s pretty standard that feels pretty standard but but then adding on additional duties I don’t know what type of internship agreement you signed on with right but you definitely want to read that it all comes back to contracts read what it is you signed up for
Right if they’re having you do some other bigger project and you’re in a lead capacity now where you’re managing it and facilitating it you want to refer to your contract whether or not it’s outside the scope of what you signed up for as an as an unpaid intern
If that’s the case if that’s the case then you want to bring up this conversation for for payment for compensation now now because you’re already working on a large project you’re reporting to supervisors you’re not getting any credit for it and you still have no tentative offer to stay on afterwards
Meaning they’re going to use you well maybe I’m the one jumping to conclusions now but from from uh the facts here I think the most reasonable I think the most prudent the most professional and thinking like a corporate cowboy the most reasonable inference that you
Can make is that they expect to use you as unpaid labor right so they could just as well just they could they might as well justify it as well we taught you how to do this and we taught you how to manage a project and we taught you all
This other technical work right so we don’t have to pay you but but if you don’t want to stay on right if you don’t want to stay on if you don’t want to learn if um you see this blade goes both ways right if you don’t want to stay on
And learn and pick up everything they’re putting down then you can leave you can leave on your terms point to the to the internship agreement that you signed with them on the way in and use that as leverage to get the [ __ ] out of there
Right because uh it I’m not going to say it’ll end there it’ll end when they when you leave and you’re not hired on but if what you want is the credits and the recognition and they typically do that with other unpaid interns yeah like something’s up something’s up especially
If you point it out and then they delete it right um we don’t know if if it’s too early to leave what if they update this uh this presentation or this slide deck to publish again and you are included right would have didn’t expect to keep you on
I mean did you work on the presentation itself did you work on this um what was it for posted an investor presentation that featured information so yeah if if if they’re posting invest if they’re posting an investor presentation essentially highlighting their team and you are not included in that team don’t
Expect to be kept on right I think a good test for this is going to be finding other unpaid interns that are in your same cohort let’s say that I’ve been there the same time period that you have if there are interns that have been there
Longer I mean and unpaid you know that I mean that’s a that’s a personal red flag for them a personal and professional red flag for them but it’s possible right and those interns might be listed because uh company management trusts that they won’t go anywhere and they can keep them
And retain them without having to actually retain them not you know not compensating them not paying them anything right they’re just unpaid interns but if uh those interns have been there the same amount of time that you have that to me would be another flag and another indication that you don’t have
A long-term you don’t have long-term potential there with the company so uh you could leave on your terms you could bring up the agreement that you signed as as an unpaid intern when you first walked in and you could use that as leverage to negotiate uh getting paid
What you are commensurate getting paid with with uh with opportunity getting paid with the [ __ ] job with money getting paid what you are worth especially if they’re having you do work that is outside the scope of just an unpaid internship so uh that being said feeling bullied I mean you haven’t really
You haven’t really included any facts in here the hypothetical client has not included any facts that would indicate that they’re being bullied or that they’re trying to um uh embarrass them or shame them somehow yeah no they they haven’t included any of that and they though they they do
Follow up with I’m struggling with the projects they wanted me to work on but at the same time I feel like I’m throwing my boss and the rest of the team under the bus to that I say you’re an unpaid intern what the [ __ ] do they expect as an
Intern you’re supposed to be learning on the job that’s that’s the point of an internship right if they wanted you to carry out the work no questions asked then that implies that you already know the answers to those potential questions and that you you have the experience the
Technical know-how the expertise if you will to do the job and not ask for help so what the why the [ __ ] would you even have a mentor in the company right no go ahead and ask those questions you’re not throwing anyone under the bus it’s an internship for goodness sake
You want to know so you ask what you need to know that’s it you’re you’re learning you’re learning um yeah I I don’t I I feel for our hypothetical client here and at the same time um the reason I’m so direct and assertive is because this hypothetical client needs to understand that
Their internship position isn’t the end-all be-all right and when companies when companies I guess when anybody right because companies are run by people when anybody takes something for granted they tend to value with less it doesn’t mean it’s not valuable they just don’t appreciate what they have especially if you’re pulling more than
Your weight right ask yourself here’s another question ask yourself are the other interns also leading I mean I don’t know if you’re leading or not it sounds like you’re working on a big project but are the other interns also working on comparable projects right relative to the one that you’re working
On now the the facts that a hypothetical client gave us don’t don’t uh lend themselves to that inference that they’re like already leading that they’re like a project manager but still an unpaid intern and you know technically an unpaid project manager no they’re not telling us that they’re still an intern but they’re
Working on a big project so it could be that they’re giving them more complex tasks than what they were used to in the previous smaller projects and that might be what’s tripping them up or that might be what’s confusing them or that might be what they need help on and that is
What you have a mentor for that is when you ask questions that is when you write them down and you you follow up with them in conversation you get the feedback on what you have been doing and how you can improve you’re an intern you
Are an intern and even then even then if if you were a brand spanking new employee if you’re entry level I would expect you [ __ ] if I’m the one hiring you I would expect you to ask questions when something comes up that you don’t understand or you don’t know how to uh
How to deliver on I mean because it comes down to deliverables and if as an intern they’re expecting deliverables of of a level at a level or of a caliber that you haven’t been trained in that you don’t have prior experience in and they’re they’re likely doing their investors they’re quote unquote
Investors a disservice because they’re technically Outsourcing this this work that might be highly Technical and specialized to someone who’s unpaid and untrained so you have a lot to leverage it’s just a matter of putting things into perspective and strategizing the best way the best way to navigate your situation so
If you need the help to do that with I mean our rates are more than fair are more than reasonable reach out to us the money that you spend sitting down and getting a consult it’s like therapy I mean for me these free consultations are therapy and what I do in my
Day-to-day well that’s what I get paid for right but if you don’t have uh say friends or family that you can go to in a professional Circle and get their opinions then the money that you invest in yourself by getting this added perspective pays off in dividends in the future
Pays off of dividends in the form of knowledge in the form of money in the form of Liberty in the form of empowerment so yeah definitely don’t uh don’t sell yourself short and don’t do yourself a disservice let’s take a look at one or two of these
Comments we’re here uh real quick here let’s take a look at one or two of these comments here real quick and I’ll critique them for you I did mention this podcast has been therapy since season one episode one so if you think you caught me lacking I’m
Just practicing this is all this is all target practice catch me in real life I’m shooting from the hip I’m doing it moving cutting and running the first comment here says you leave when it’s right for you and in the future never ever mentioned that you are interviewing
Especially not to the CEO yeah I think you [ __ ] up by by mentioning you were interviewing I didn’t so much touch on it because uh you had already said that you were interviewing and then they and then they took you off with this little presentation that made you feel some
Type of way so it kind of sounded like you weren’t staying regardless right but uh in the future yeah if the internship doesn’t pan out or if you’ve already been given the forecast right if the writing is already on the wall that you’re not staying don’t tell them you’re leaving
Just leave at the end at the end of your internet at the end of your internship term just live out this last month right these last four weeks on this big project but in the meantime you should be actively applying and interviewing you should you don’t have to tell them
You’re doing that why because it all it on top of that it also makes them think like put yourself in in the manager’s shoes sure they might be a dick sure they might be exploiting the the quote free labor that they have in you but you don’t think they know that right
They have unpaid labor so they’re not expecting like top quality Still Still they expect quality which is why you got managers hitting you up left and right on night and weekends and really that should just be a form of practice for you to manage their expectations to let them know that
Um you’ll get to it when you get to it in in a nice and considerate and professional way right you should know how to um how to converse professionally with them so you could manage their expectations and not get let go obviously because you absolutely can get fired as an intern
But you want to live out the rest of your month pick up the rest of this remaining experience from this big project and we don’t know what your duties are so if you are a supervisor at this point beautiful put that on your resume get hired somewhere else
Negotiate your worth you don’t have to stick around or leave and be like this this is also outside the scope of my internship right live it out if they don’t want to give you the credit nice they could always um if you are applying in the future to another place
You may have to give a reference of where you worked but but this this more behooves you to build a good Network properly and good connections with the firm that you are at now so that when those references come down they are only positive they’re glowing glowing references
Because you don’t want uh I mean at this point you kind of did soil um that bridge you kind of [ __ ] on that bridge getting so much burn it but you kind of [ __ ] on that bridge so if a future employer calls them and asks hey
Do you know Alex oh yeah Alex wasn’t minding his work uh it wasn’t really attentive he was actively um you know working on something else while we had them on a big while we had them on a big project so they could sabotage you right and say that you were
Not apt for the corporate world especially if especially if they knew that you were applying and interviewing to other places at the same time you know that could come back and bite you in the ass but you want to keep putting on the down low especially if it’s an internship if
It’s something that’s not panning out more often than not they know they know you’re applying they know you’re interviewing they know you’re seeking a job I mean you’re not getting paid unless you’re some type of trust fund kid who’s just there but I’m just here for the experience only and and you
Stick around as an unpaid intern for years at a time and that’s why you’re getting the name recognition and the presentation I mean does it matter at that point you ain’t getting paid unless they’re doing yeah unless they’re doing extraordinary work and um and they’re already set in more
Ways than one so they don’t have to worry about a salary they don’t have to worry about the cost of living right but for the most part professionals like the hypothetical clients in this case aspiring professionals at the negotiate what they’re worth up front right so
And that includes internships a lot of a lot of places use like just standard form agreements and say you’ll be interning here with us for three months or for a year or whatever the [ __ ] term is um whatever the period of time is but even in that agreement you can write
In like at what stages or what phases you will receive feedback or evaluation in order to receive an offer like you don’t have to be hanging on to now to every word that comes from your manager like oh we might hire you we might not oh you know when application
Season rolls around you should submit one or whatever like nah you could you could have that set you already have your foot in the door you could have that in writing you have your foot in the door you want to know what it’ll take for you to stay
On so what do you need an evaluation some type of performance review something that is tangible that is quantifiable that is measurable of what you’re doing right what you can fix and in the next uh period of of weeks or months maybe at the end of your internship they’ll return to it again
And evaluate you one last time and potentially make you that offer then you can have that all in writing you just gotta know to negotiate it all comes back to contracts it all comes back to um the keeping receipts but that might be higher level strategy and higher level of thinking that requires
Two brains or at least thinking like a corporate cowboy but that’s what we’re here for we’re here to develop more corporate Cowboys we’re here to lead leaders there might be a instances or circumstances that I overlook that’s why I keep a circle of corporate Cowboys other leaders that help me improve and develop
Take care of yourselves catch you next time foreign
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