Namaskar now uh before I get into today’s topic and before I bring in Dr Ram punani I want to spend two minutes uh in fact not even two minutes one minute normally which I don’t do but today I want to spend one minute on the subject
That I’m going to discuss and the reason I want to spend that one minute is because you see I wanted to know what Hindu rashtra actually means I had also written in my Facebook you know as to what exactly would Hindu rashtra mean I want to understand so that then I will
Decide whether I will I want a Hindu rra I don’t want a Hindu rra I remember a very senior ideologue RSS ideologue very senior RSS ideologue Al also a very senior BJP leader I don’t want to name him and all that he got into my my Facebook page and said that listen you
Know as usual every you know however these people do they wrote and said you don’t understand you don’t understand ABCD of Hinduism what are you talking about and all that I said yeah I do not understand ABCD of Hinduism but Baba tell me what is Hindu rashtra so this is
Where it all started so obviously I couldn’t get an answer from the gentleman so I thought the person I would trust the most to explain this to me would be Dr ramani so I requested him if he could join and he graciously joined us today so sir thank you so much for joining
Me you you heard my story sir what is Hindu rashtra yeah I think it will be good to understand this chronology of the word Hindu Hinduism Hindu rashtra and Hindu if you understand that then will be it will become clear that first of course when we say rra nation in the
Modern sense comes in the last three or four centuries earlier there were kingdoms so this confusion has also come in and the word Hindu as we know it began as a geographical category let’s be very clear because in India the religions have been very plural very plural like earlier there was Vic
Tradition there was locat aikas jism Buddhism right now so initially what happened Su that when people were coming from the western part of the world they had to cross synu river and in their language the word sir is pronounced less often and word her is pronounced more
Often so CNU became Hindu and this whole land from CNU River to the Sea it became Hindu so initial the word Hindu is a geographical category then what happens Hinduism is not a prophet based religion like Semitic religions it is it has many streams like Vic streams which people
Call sanatan or some people call it brahminical then there are shamic Traditions like na Tantra sh sidhant and later on bti tradition also come com in so of course there is a fundamental difference between these two two Traditions like brahminical tradition is based on the Vic purush Su of cast and
Gender hierarchy while the other Traditions like n Tantra sh and Lan bti and also traditions of Buddhism and jism they broadly they can be called as shamanic Traditions here the cast and gender hierarchy is not there so let’s be very clear later on the word Hindu also started being used for the
Coalition of different religious tendencies in this part of the world now why why this happened because there is no single Prophet there is no single holy book there is no single place of worship the whole diversity of this subcontinent and then Buddhism stood at a separate religion jism stood at a
Separate religion and other small Tendencies started being clubbed under the term Hinduism and this Hinduism term also was later on like it came up as a religion but Dr ambedkar of course I introduced him very often he saw this Coalition of different religions and he calls that brahminical TR Traditions are
The most dominant ones in this Coalition called Hinduism and then again we see that Hinduism as a proper structural this thing comes up more in 19th centur Cy with other constructs now these are the two things so term Hindu Hinduism then comes the term Hindu now Hindu was
First came in after uh you know in late late 19th century and it came in response to the drastic changes which were occuring like uh Muslim communal politics was coming up Hindu communal politics was crystallizing then there was the emergence of Congress from 1885 so so one I’m forgetting the name of
That gentleman one Bengali gentleman he coined the word Hindu in a very lofty manner that it is not it is a totality of Hindu tradition in a very lofty way human way he coined it now now uh Sarat in 1923 gave a more structural expression to the word Hindu and he called that
Hinda is not just a religion it is a to Hindu what does that mean it means that the land from snu to the Seas One Foundation second Foundation the Arian race and the third Foundation the brahminical Traditions that I’m interpreting the third one he called it culture but Culture by and large is
Regarded close to the brahminical tradition so this is in 1923 sarar brought it Forward he made a structure out of it Hindu and same thing he said in that he came with very classical definition of Hindu now this was something semi geographical semi uh religious he said that all those people
Who have holy land and father land in this land are Hindus and those who who have uh Fatherland but not holy land they are not Hindus like so what it ruled out it ruled out Christians and Muslims so this Hindu and from here emerged the concept of Hindu nationalism Hindu Hindu rra so
The point is that Hindu rashtra concept came during Freedom Movement let me if you give me a minute I’ll explain that hind that India Society has been constantly changing earlier we were Hunter food gatherers that was not a rash they were tribes then when Arians came from Central Asia Scapes region
They were they came in the waves of migration they they were again the tribes and residents so the kingdoms came was with the Agricultural Society and kingdoms were also not rash when we say rash rash means a collection of people who are bound together by communication some common things with
Which they identify so that is actually what the concept of nation as it came up with the industrial society so now what was happening in India in India because we were a colonial under colonial rule on one side there came up people industrialists workers and the educated
Classes now they were exposed to the West also they knew democracy also they knew that uh how things work in the modern world now when they started coming up they started articulating one is equality for dalits like jir f equality for women like savitri f then Indian National Congress when it was
Formed of course it was formed with a combination of two things Lord Hume from the British side who wanted to see that there is no explosion of the discontent of the people and on the other side many modern associations which were there like Pune pun Sanic Saba Mumbai Association grass Association now these
Were the associations of the uh people trained in modern education having modern Industries and all that so these associations we are looking for a political political cute so they saw in so here two things combined we can’t say that Congress was purely a British construct Lord hum was responsible to a
Great extent but he was he could make it only because there were around 300 such associations like pun s Madras Mahan SAA and Bombay Association who were looking for a different system so when we have kingdoms we had kingdoms they cannot be called rash according to there is a
Mugal mugal Empire in collaboration with rajput Kings there is m chhatrapati shivaji maharage in collaboration with many mus many Muslim this thing so Muslims and Hindu kingdoms were not based on religion and there was no single thing like we saw Emperor ashoke having the largest Empire but even that
Was not a Buddhist Nation he adopted to Buddhism but he didn’t call it Buddhist Nation it was a it was his Empire empire Akbar is again supposed to be having a large vast Empire but he also did not call it Islamic they did not impose Islamic laws things were Indian societ social
Structure did not change unfortunately like cast gender hierarchy and people’s vaa and all that they did not CH so here we have on one side the people who are emerging through Indian National Congress on the other side the old ruling classes the landlord the rajas the nawabs the zamidar the Muslim and
Hindu rulers they felt scared of this so they said that our religion is under threat actually what was under threat was their power what was under threat was a feudal Valu system which they practice now here let’s be very clear feudal value system is based on authoritarianism superiority of cast
Superiority of the ruler and there is no freedom of expression in the modern sense of the word we can’t impose the modern Concepts on those so as they felt scared two t nent Tendencies came up and of course initially I must tell you that Hindu rajas and Muslim noads on one side
We see the formation of Indian National Congress on other side this Hindu and Muslim kings and nawabs they F the same thing that our religion is under danger here it is I got the key from here naab of Daka and Raja of Kashi they come together to form United India patriotic
Association they pledged their loyalty to the British queen and they said as for our religion now here religion comes in we have to be loyal to our ruler while Congress is trying to spread dissidence among the people now of course later on in this common Muslim in Hindu pool there were people British
Played the policy of divide and Rule so Muslim League came up first asking for Muslim nation in Du cour Hindu mahasa came up in 1915 calling for Hindu Nation so point is here the ground of confusion is enough in India also if you see Indian Nationalism developed from the
Classes which emerged because of industrialization trans for communication like modern industry industrialist modern educated classes and modern uh UC modern workers so this is where which is a nent form of Indian Nationalism which later on articulates the values of Liberty equality fraternity and on this side now that
Their origin is very important initially in this group only landlords and rajas were there and what were their values superiority of their own structure and that’s why when they call Hindu Hindu Nation or Muslim Nation actually that a plant in the modern society of the values of
Kingdom now this is I don’t know I hope whether I’m making the point yes yes so yes so basically what are their values they’re steeped in the values of Kingdom what are the values of Kingdom hierarchy so I can’t go straight to the king I
Have to bend to him I can’t uh take a U-turn after meeting him I have to comeb The Rivers here so man is supposed to be the owner of woman like all that feudal values which were there man and woman it is like husband and wife that sort of
Thing which were prevalent there so those were the feudal structural values which these people nurtured and gave it the name of nation while the people who are coming with the industrialization and the changes we go with the modern society they don’t like their example I’ll K you
Bhagat Singh for example what is the name of his organization Hindustan socialist Republican Association what is the name of ambedkar’s organizations independent labor party schedule cast Federation Republican party of India what is the name of the party of molana aad Mahatma Gandhi an basent and Sardar bald Singh it is Indian National
Congress so see the Dom clature don’t tell me that what is there in the name don’t throw Shakespeare on me but see the names of these organizations which talk of Hindu or a Muslim Nation so inti later on in these groups of landlords and Kings when they form some
Elite Advocates upper class and later on Lower middle class also joined them and what is their name Muhammad Ali jinna Muslim League vinayak Dam Saar Hindu mahasa and RSS stands for Hindu Nation so I hope I am able to explain that the roots lie in the feudal value system and
Last Point here if I represent the Indian Nationalism I’ll pick up edar because he was the architect of India’s Constitution apart from everybody else there are so many names I don’t want to throw this in so what does ambedkar do edar struggles for social justice he also encourages women to come to the
Social space he also goes to burn manusi because he thinks the values of manusi are cast in gender hierarchy and later on he becomes the Chief Architect of India’s Constitution which gives us Liberty equality fraternity and recently you must have heard one of what is it anant
Heg of Karnataka what does he say he want 400 seats so that we can change the Constitution and there were there is a glorification of Manus I have no problem with holy books I respect them but question is values so Indian constitution gives me the values of Liberty equality
Fraternity and Justice while these holy scriptures and even those influenced by which influence the Muslim League mananas they also give the same values that there is a hierarchy they would like to suppress the women they will like to keep the lower cost inhibited so here the difference actually I see uh
Hindu Hindu rashtra is gradually if you see the last 10 years of course we have seen a rapid decline in the values of democratic indices in the values of safety of minorities in the values of Asser in the rising assertion of the upper cast in the in increasing
Insecurity of the women and all that so roughly Hindu rash is a modern Concept in Arian times there was no concept of Hindu rash in the times of Hindu Kings it was Hindu kingdoms not Hindu rash cor so Hindu rash is a modern concept Muslim rash is a modern concept
Christian fundamentalism is a modern concept and suit what I am shocked that these Muslim communalist Hindu communalist Christian fundamentalist and Buddhist fundamentalist they all have similar value system they will call democracy as western western construct correct like Muslim Brotherhood if you see they will call it as Western con said and Su you
Know what was one of the biggest shocks of my life when I saw that Sri Lanka such a lovely Island it is it was gripped by the uprising I tried to study it and I came to know that Sri Lanka is in the grip of Buddhist fundamentalism and they called it Buddhist
Rashtra so yes they want their their aim is again similar way that we are Buddhist so once uh you know what happened in 1958 s w bandar that Shar yes he was killed by a budik you know why because he gave the legitimacy of Tamil as a national language so he was
Killed I’ll send so similar so similar to what happened here correct so question is it is when when they call it Hindu rash or Buddhist rash or a Muslim rash or a Christian rash they all aim at preindustrial values pre democratic values in my understanding and of course
They can they can device beautiful language oh our vas say this manusi says this Quran says this Bible has such lovely things and Buddhism has some lovely so what happen because every holy book has some very pleasant sweet things and there is a lot of other things also
So they’ll pick up that sweet thing and they say oh you know one tells us this but Babas sa says that manusi gives me the slavery so why should I have it so that is where the lies Crunch and the difference between the two things sir well explained sir I want to
Understand from a very Layman perspective as to Sir see if you say Islamic State okay Islamic country then you know that that country will be following Sharia they will have bka they will have you know those whatever sh law what exactly happens when you say
That you are a Hindu rashtra what do we what does that mean in physical terms in today’s world yeah so as you begin with the Muslim R let’s go on there and the worst thing to see is Pakistan they began by saying that we will have Sharia like when Z hak came he
Islamized Pakistan and there was thick association between clergy Army and American appendages okay this was this is what we call America Pakistan being ruled by three AIDS America Allah through and army right and they tried to so initially they persecuted Hindus then they persec same they persecuted
Christians but then you don’t stop then you said oh these amadas are not Muslims you say kadan are not Muslims so same way in Taliban the interpretation of Islam is in the hands of the rulers with the guns so like interpretation of Quran you will see people like Sufi Sufi
Sintes their interpretation of Islam is different like there is one great Sufi saint of Iran uh molana room molana room and uh my friend visited his tomb and uh there the picture written is that love is the basic religion right now this is not the Islam which Taliban will follow
Or which the Pakistan will follow follow our Buddhist fundamentalist will follow in Sri Lanka so that Sri Lankan example gave me great insight into what this whole nationalism in the name of religion means so it abolishes like Hindu rash will abolish democracy we are already seeing the remn elements of that
Hindu rash will strengthen the upper cast Hindu rash will strengthen marginalize the religious minorities into second class citizens there is ghettoization there is love Jihad there is beef flinching right and uh then again how there is a complicated mechanism in India islamophobia picks up Christian now let’s not get confused Christians
Are fairly good victims of this politics there are but why it is not reported much because there are scattered small violence going on in the against prayer meetings in villages and again by the same elements who will go with go dancing on Rami and their favorite place of dance is not the
Temple but the mosque they will prefer to dance in front of the mosque so Hindu rash will basically mean a domination of a distorted understanding of religion now sujit you see interpretation of Hinduism is not the same for everybody like what Gandhi believed to be religion was purely a inclusive one like recently
When Ram Temple was inaugurated I tried to understand Kabir also thought of ram but it was a universal Spirit Gandhi also thought of ram but it was inclusive RAM and now when the jri Ram comes it begins with a exclusion so Hindu rash will mean number one evolution of
Democracy number two exclusion of the religious minorities number three exclusion of the liberal elements within your Hindu fold there will be many Hindus who will say oh no this is not my interpretation of Hinduism that you go and spend so much money for temples while people are starving or while
People don’t have health facilities and educational facilities so those Hindus will again be already they call them librandu or something so those liberal will be out then there is another thing which we have to understand that such sectarian Tendencies also go hand in and with promotion of big corporate world
Now Pakistan may not be a good example to understand because industry never took off Roots there in India fortunately for first 50 years we had a good infrastructural development so we have good uh good or whatever corporate sector which is now making merry from last 10 years more than before so this
Is and then there is increasing dominance of military in some places increasing dominance of clergy clergy becomes Central but here again there are a lot of variations but what you are seeing today is a good sample of Hindu rash if it comes into full flown full flooded being like they
Already say that we want to change Constitution and what is their alternate manusi it may not be in the same form but it may be slightly muted or more refined form that you try to put the same values in uh present times and who will be the victims not only Muslims and
Christians victims will be the liberal Hindus who are theit and the right equality rights of women and adasis that will be the thing which we see in microcosm now or micro they’re also fairly blown up even now but they will become much more prominent after that sir let me ask question is is
Hindu rra uh is there a cultural meaning to it which means what I meant is fine I mean you will see manusi you will see maybe castism is what people say a lot of people who who talks about H says no no no it will not
Be anything of that so it will be a Hindu way of life now what I want to understand sir is as Hindu I believe that the entire world is because that’s what I I learned is what my mother earth is and it is my family then the whole world is
Mine so conceptually there is no geographical definition for Hindu rra as far as I am concerned okay now what are you talking about are we talking about cultural if it is cultural then you you manusi implementation or not that’s a one end of the story what else is it
That there is a certain way of clothes that I have to wear is it there there certain way of marriage I have to do is it that something I have to eat that I will be restricted is it is it is all of that going to be a part of this Hindu
Rra absolutely absolutely already you see that there is a heavy emphasis on vegetarianism they began with beef and overall if you go in Gujarat get getting a nonvegetarian restaurant is not easy so that is one then close wise I don’t know that stage has not come but you see
The ways of worship now in India if you see the ways of worship it varies from region to region in Bengal there is Khali in South there is basana in in Gujarat earlier there was Lord Krishna and RAM was in North Indian D but that is becoming now a central D they are
Saying now that is a soul of India now as far as Soul of India is concerned it is a very diverse Soul it has to include Assam it has include Kashmir it has to include Maharashtra like vova tradition in Mahar so is some sort of a uniformity will will they will try to
Impose that Central book is Gita Central D is RAM and Central our aaras are there probably politicians can also substitute for aaras as we are lat to seeing that some of them can take the function of aaras also so sir it will bring sorry I
Want to ask you a very uh possibly a controversial question sir uh Gandhi also preached vegetarianism Gandhi preached no consumption of alcohol Gandhi also preached a Hindu way of life so was Gandhi in some way at some point uh trying to kind of talk about a Hindu
Rash I’m talking vaguely I hope you understand my question yeah see Gandhi’s thing was this that Gandhi practiced vegetarianism and I fully support him but he did not want it to be imposed on others you know when India became independent there were many postcards which came to the Prime Minister saying
That house slauter should be banned and they went to Gandhi for this so Gandhi they said that how can you ban C Slaughter India is a diverse country people’s needs are different and to quote Swami viand Swami vivean will also not go for or uniformity in food
Prices so question is Hinduism yes but Hinduism of a selected small people can be imposed on other actually the greatest thing of Hinduism of yours and mine is that we believe in diversity to so far as we identify with our whole Heritage and uh some D and all
That but I I don’t want to impose my Dy on you maybe a Krishna you are a sh somebody’s a Kali absolutely no problem so Gandhi’s practice of vegetarianism are fully support from environmental angle from so many other angles I will even support veganism but imposing it on
Others by force and then lynching people close to 100 people and lynching 10 dalits for this skinning the cows that is something which Hindu will bring that that part of it fine I want to go back to uh Gandhi sir sir Gandhi talked about but hisa was Nots hisa was to was
To Ure that the csed so Gandhi g spoke about gaka Gandhi g also people who were followers almost converted into Hinduism because those Christian people who were with him they were all named names so I sir what I want to understand is what exactly was running in Gandhi
G’s mind what was he thinking and what was his his role secondly sir I want to also add at one point in time in before independence Congress was supposed to be the Hindu party and Muslim League was supposed to be the Muslim party I mean that is broadly what it was of course
After Independence Congress became uh a secular party and Congress preed secularism and what India is today is thanks to what Congress pred during the partition and what Gandhi preached thetion and that is why we are a secular Nation least as of today sir but let me
Tell you I see this conflicts and I want to know what is your thought on this conflict sir yeah my thought is very clear Congress was never a Hindu party Congress was looked up looked down as Hindu Party by Muslim League because Hindu mahasabha that was very very small
Party Congress was a fairly big one so jna always accused Congress of being a Hindu party and British also wanted two polls Hindu mahasabha was hardly a poll RSS was working in its shakas so they labeled Congress as Hindu party it was never Hindu party if you see the
Composition of Congress like how do you name Moana abam aad M Ansari Zakir Hussein and all those all leaders who were part of this they never became Hindus mad remained a Muslim jact correct correct correct and so so many Christian like any bent of course was a theosophist but there were many
Christians who were a part of Congress Muslims actually Neu refused to entertain jna joining up cabinet on the ground that Congress represents all the all the religions so what is the need for me to accommodate Muslim League in my my cabinet so correct correct correct
Sir I I am not Congress I was talking about Gandhi as a as a as an individual and as as a as a as a belief as a belief which a lot of us including myself uh we we follow so religiously so I wanted to just clear my mind on that so the
Conversion which I spoke is Gandhi Sati as Gandhi’s as you see Gandhi’s people converted to Gandhi’s way of life but if you see all the meetings of Mahatma Gandhi they begin with all religion prayers prayers they’re not Hindu prayers he didn’t encourage going to he he was following all this and he
Wanted also to have actually I must say he must have been a biggest environmentalist so he adopted way of life and his magnetic power was so strong that people were influenced by him and they changed something here are there but all the people associated with him and close to him and his best
Followers did not convert to Hinduism they remained what we there some of them changed in their names like and but his best friends remained Christians but they were so influenced by Gandhi if they live around that magnetism was so strong that uh you you tended to adopt
Some of his ways which are not necessarily Hindu ways like vegetarian of if you see today in India 70% of H are nonvegetarians and re and and Gandhi I quote both they did not want to impose any food rits on so they adopt for themselves as a role model if you follow
Them absolutely fine but it is not that if I don’t follow what Gandhi says in matters of eating and wearing clothes that I’ll be linked on the street or I’ll be suppressed in any so that is the difference I want to say I think Mahatma Gandhi was all a person
And his many quotes I have seen where he claims that I am a Hindu I can give my life for my religion but that is not the matter of state that’s where the things start and if you see his all religion prayers what is the meaning of that yes
I me correct there is something from vas something from Quran something from Christianity all all actually all religion prayers I used to and one of my friend has beautifully brought in a all religion prayer which we are trying to promote so Andi actually I’ll say Gandhi’s Hinduism
Is my Hinduism correct sir you know I will I have a quote written in my office with of of Mahatma Gandhi and where he says that I will give my life for gaka but I will not take one I mean I thought it was so beautiful I have Bo
Bombs in my so beautifully written I mean the man’s thought and the man’s heart is comes through it sir I want to ask you another question you know this and and even a viewer is asked why is it that you don’t find a lot of RSS a lot of vindu I mean Hindu
Mahasabha and all in the freedom struggle why is it that sir yeah see they feel that first is of course sarer film has again come back come and uh h Muslim League and Hindu mahasa they did not want to be part of the freedom struggle RSS also didn’t want to be part
Of the freedom struggle because Freedom struggle was aiming at a secular Democratic country secular Democratic Nation while Muslim League wanted a Muslim country Hindu mahasabha RS is going to the Hindu nation and they remain totally Al now out of electoral compulsion they are trying to Pro no no
No we were also part of the Freedom Movement and sarer was so great but overall why and LGE then sarer after he came from andamans and then he was released from ratnagiri they never fought against British actually they supported British sarer got a hefty pension of 60 rupees per month at that
Time and he pled the loyalty to British and during Second World War he was a major Pioneer of encouraging people to join the British army to uh fight this thing so they basically how can they join the Freedom Movement and actually they’re strategy was very interesting Muslim leagues thought that we have to
Fight the Hindus so let’s collaborate with British Hindu mahasa RS has thought we had to fight against Muslims so let’s collaborate with British so it is like famous that monkey and Tu two cats that story that’s British played wonderful British played this wonder that Wonder Sir my last question
Hinduism as as the as the as the Hinduism taken beating because of all this that has been happening in the name of Hinduism has hind the brand name hu sorry I’m using the concept of brand name but brand name have we lost our our image yeah see actually that’s where I
Generally want to follow Vian Kabir and Gandhi as a real people ideally who practice their religion and like Kabir I I mean see Kabir is a person who was followed by Hindus and Muslims both but he talks of ram but his Ram doesn’t annoy the Muslims who are his followers
Here you see Vari tradition in our own Maharashtra Vari tradition is around Lord Krishna voba and Muslims also respect that so question is here again I come back to my small understanding that when morality of religion comes forth people try to associate and when power comes in the name of religion people are
Either tortured or people get put off or people want to keep away so here these are two things morality on one side power on the other so Gandhi was totally for Morality Kabir was for Morality you’ll be surprised suit if you beam he’s so much for social equality so
Much for justice like something reflection of which we’ll find in our constitution so Hinduism I think is a great tradition but Hinduism in the hands of it political use is a different different sir what wellp put sir so well put morality when you show religious morality it is for the benefit of all
When you show religious power that just changes so so brilliantly put thank you so much for this last I I I thank you thank you thank you look that
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