Hello everyone welcome to fo talks I’m Peter isacson Chief strategy officer of fair Observer I have the privilege and honor today of uh talking to Pascal BR president of the and I’ll say it in French the Federation I’m not sure how we need to translate that we’ll look at that
Uh Pascal is someone who’s started his career as a diplomat and has worked in the upper exellence of of French government in several Ministries as well as the the cour de uh the institution was charged with auditing the entire bureaucracy of France today we’re going to be talking
About officially France in crisis and there’s a lot to be said it’s going to take us I think in several directions uh but sticking to the events in recent months uh Pascal I’m interested in having your take on what actually happened uh at the end of the year when
There was quite a number of chaotic things that took place in Parliament uh concerning the law on immigration something that I think you’re very directly concerned with and uh I’d like you to you know give us some idea of what all that means but perhaps first you can just tell us a
Little bit about your role in in the fast and how you translate feder well the fact is Peter that it’s not so easy to translate first time very glad to have this discussion with you today uh about the situation in in our country well this Federation is um a
Union of charities in France uh working against fighting against poverty I mean helping people in the streets helping people to try to have housing uh people who have difficulties to work there this it’s close to 1 million people in France uh women who have have suffered violences strangers welcomed in France
Well those are all those Union in France the Charities and our Federation uh well I I thought exactly know how to translate it but it’s the union of French Charities fighting against poverty I would say that yeah okay that’s that’s great that gives us some some background now let’s go into
The question of the law on immigration because that did uh appear in the headlines in the international headlines as well obviously as the French headlines what happened what what went on there and how does it concern you well the fact is It’s been a tough moment for for our Charities and I would
Say a specific moment for for France I would say that it’s um it’s been in the a French the French episode of an international or at least western movie uh because the fact is that my understanding and Analysis is that this question of migrations of immigration is is a a real difficult
Questions has been a real difficult question since at least 10 or a little more than 10 years um I guess it’s something that you can see in the whole Western world I mean you you can say see that in Australia in the United States of course in the whole Europe including in
France um it’s a concern for our Charities because the fact is that um among poor people in France such as in other countries you have of course strangers uh refugees arriving in France uh who cannot work for some reasons we will come to uh so that they are in
Poverty and of course the only solution for them uh is uh to be helded by our Charities so that’s why it’s an important matter for us I would say specifically for me because I used to be to before uh working with uh those Charities I used to be the the head of
The French Agency for refugees especially during the European crisis for of refugees so it’s an important element for us and I would say that such as in other European or Western countries my belief is that when we talk about immigrations it’s not only about people strangers coming in France which
Is very important about their dignity uh above all if we take into account what they have been living in their country or in the in the the Exile it’s too a matter of dignity for people working in the Charities with them it can be professionals or nonprofessionals
People but I think that what we can see in the whole Western world is that this question of immigration is a problem I mean a questions uh a difficult topic I would say a difficult reality for the whole society and that’s why I would say that what happened and I will come more
Precisely to what happened in France in December um is that I do believe that in France such as in other countries especially in Europe or in the United States we have some kind of uh middle classes are are weakened they’re Fragile on the on the social ground on the economic ground on
The cultural ground and of course there you touch specificities and we will I think I suppose we will talk about some specific specificities in France about that and it’s not a surprise that immigration such as in other moment our history in Europe or in the world uh in this moment in which the
Middle classes are so weakened this question of immigration could be difficult one so what happened in December in France I would say more than a crisis it’s a slip a terrible slip and again it’s not French it’s you can see that in Germany you got seen that in Italy in the UK
Since longer time in the in the United States especially during the the the former Administration what happened is that we had in France a debate in the parliament in December about a new immigration law could have been the same kind of debate we’ve been having during the 30
Past years about immigration because the fact is that if you take uh immigration policies have changed in France at the beginning of the 80s at the moment of the uh of the first economic crisis um and then France began to reduce reduce the level of immigration in in the
Country um and the fact is that since then we’ve had I think that something like more than at least one uh immigration low each year I would say always the same kind of LW sometime a little useful but mostly unuseful U lows lows such as in whole Europe with
One goal trying to make people not come in Europe or in France uh I would say making the bureaucracy so hard so tough that people would not come which is in my mind a complete illusion because it’s not because you have to wait much time in France outside the
French administrations that you won’t come from Africa or for Afghanistan or or somewhere else um but the fact is that we’ve been having many laws of that kind but then we we have we have been facing in uh in December something else first we had a project the
Government uh proposed a law which was not so different from the previous lws I was talking about I would say in some kind in some aspects there was something very useful in this law which was the opening of possibilities uh to work for strangers in France in specific economic sectors
Because the reality as you know it’s like that in the whole oecd if you look at the the last report of O about migrations it’s very impressive to see that you have on one ground uh you can see that in the all Western World there is each each day tougher policies to try
To reduce migrations and this report shows that for example last year it’s been increasing for work in the whole oecd and in this first project of law uh by the French government there was a very useful proposal to open possibilities with controls in specific sectors in which there are very
Important needs for employment because the reality is that as you know in the whole USD we are U now um our societies are older so we have needs this is of course the Paradox of the period which is not again a French paradox but a European and international
And Western Paradox which is that we need still more people to work because we are getting older in our societies but it’s so we need migrations especially for work but it’s very hard because again we have middle classes popular classes which are weak on on many grounds so there was this very
Useful proposal but then we had a debate in France we have two Chambers in the parliament as you know Peter we have a National Assembly and we have the Senate the fact is that in the senate in the French Senate at the present times you have a majority which
Is more on the right than inational assembly the French government Emanuel mcon doesn’t have a majority in the Senate and it as you know it doesn’t even have a majority in the National Assembly since last elections in in 22 and the fact is that when this law came to the
Senate then something happened which is in our mind and in my personal mind something really new and rather terrific we had the kind of debate you had during the Trump Administration and sometimes have in the in the American Congress the kind of debate you have in the Italian parliament with the the actual
Government you you have the kind of debate you have in the the the house of of Commons in the UK since many years and the rhetoric and then the law turned to be very very much against everything having to see with welcoming people in France cutting subsidies such
As social subsidies yeah getting R rid of the those this part of the the government project uh which was opening possibilities to work the Senate got rid of all that and you had a debate in the Senate which has been very tough with a with a kind of music Bad music in
My mind saying well immigration in France we have to reduce it and more integration is not anymore possible and then after that the government could have say well we stop with that but this didn’t happen the fact is that the government decided to find an agreement with the
Senate on the basis of what the senate had been voting without the elements of the law about uh opening some kind of working possibilities in sub sectors of the economy and this has been voting by uh the majority of the parliament the rights party the M party Renaissance and the extreme
Right and all this uh I must add that the left parties in France in my mind have have had an attitude which has not been useful instead of trying to make pressure the government to tried to come back to the the initial proposal of the of the government including with those
Possibilities to to have more possibilities to work in France the left decided not to discuss and at the end of that we have now a law we had a law voted by by the parliament which was again some something else than all the laws we had in the past something very tough very
Closed and then as you know the uh the last part of the story at this stage is that the con constitutional the Supreme Court the French Su Court decided to um to split most of this law but mostly from procedures reasons not because of of a non-conformity to the to the French
Constitution but because of problems of Conformity which means that now if you take the situation now what do we have we have um a public debate a political debate a a general climate in France which is mostly like what you can see again in the UK in Italy in the
United States and some other countries including including in Germany in Sweden in Finland uh which is a very tough general climate about strangers in the country which is of course a real difficulty for our Charities which task is to work with those people in the benefit of those
People but in the whole society and the the economy okay so the the law itself where are we now is it stabilized or do we have a clear policy about how immigration can work is is this something that’s to be further debated and changed um well the the fact is not it’s
Not very clear uh it’s not very clear because we first had this uh this law voted by the parliament on very tough and closed ground then split by the the Supreme Court so on I would say on the legal framework um nothing really changed but there are a few elements of concerns
For us in our mind again I used to say that this question of immigration is first of course a question of dignity as I said again dignity for those people those families dignity for the professional and unprofessional working with them um in in the Charities but I
Used to say that it’s not only a matter of dignity I would say it’s a matter of cohesion of the of the whole society a matter of order public order uh and the truth is that coming back to the legal framework again it didn’t change so much after this law but
Why are we uh worried because this produced or I would say add something else to a general climate in France such as in the whole Europe or in the United States or Australia which is not in the in in the benefit of welcoming in good conditions um about a key element which
Is a key element not only again for the Dignity of the people the Charities but firstly for the the strength of the European and the fetch economy which is possibilities to work for those people strangers uh M migrating in France it’s not very clear because as I told you um the the the
Part of the of the the initial project of the government about possibilities to work has been split and then you have what you used to have in France but such as in other countries I would say an exraction by the French government a directive of the French government to his pref his
Representative in the whole country to see each demand of each people to see if maybe they could work in those sectors in which there are economic needs from the from the Enterprise so we don’t know at this stage I do hope and I do think
And I do believe and I want to believe that the government on this basis will be able to make to do what is useful again for people but for the econ French economy too such as in Italy in Spain in Germany in many countries which is to
Regularize to give a legal statute to people who can work for our economy but as you can see I don’t really know where we are going to and the fact is that I’m not very optimistic we’re going to fight again but such as in the whole Western World I’m not very optimistic on
The on the way our societies and governments are dealing with this topic of migrations well it seems to me that there are two Dimensions to the whole business the whole problem of not just immigration but of social solidarity and that is um you’ve got the legal side you’ve talked about and and
Every year apparently there’s a new law so this was simply the latest in a long series um so people are constantly work and you cited the the kinds of U measures that have been taken in Spain Italy Germany and so on as as positive examples presumably we can find other
Positive examples and have new ideas and come up with good Solutions but the real the other dimension of it is the cultural side that is the perception of who these people are who are not us and what role they can play here now it seems to me that that’s you know any
Cultural problem is something that can’t be dealt with simply with laws with her legal reform or even evolv institutions uh something deeper must take place I would put some of the blame if it’s a question of putting blame on the way we educate uh whether it’s our Educational
Systems or or the people involved but just the way it happens and the media what do you how do you see that this this well I would call it a a cultural uh a cult natural gap between the perception of a real social problem and the means of addressing it
Not not just solving it but addressing it well Peter I think this is the key question in the period of time we’re facing in the whole Europe and the Western world not only you can see that in Brazil in other countries yeah well my belief my analysis is
That I do believe believe that if there is um a topic about migrations it’s not only a matter of perception it’s a matter of perception it’s a matter too of how some including political players use this topic we would say in Fr instrumentalize use this because it’s their their
Business this is a reality but in my mind we have to face that that’s the the the the way I see that again it’s not specially French but with French specificities we we’ll come to I guess because of course each country has its cultural specificities
In the very Global sense of the of the of this notion as as you mentioned it I do feel that we are facing in our societies something I could say notes notes um especially on migrations but not only you have this again for example on on ecological uh
Transformation you have this on uh food you have this on many topics but especially on migrations uh because again I do believe that this question of migrations is not new in our histories The Stranger in a society which is weakened on many grounds social economic grounds because in the the framework of the
Globalization I do believe that’s a very this is a very strong thing if you take France in France we’ve been having this is now changing but during the 30 past years because of the C the economic crisis we have had huge unemployment it’s a kind of of French specificity
Which is changing now but as you know Peter for many years we had a very high level of unemployment and in many places in France you have families grandfathers fathers son grandmothers mothers uh daughters which didn’t work because of dis industrialization and other reasons uh and this is has been very strong to
Weaken popular classes and um part of the middle class classes such as in this context the idea that uh those people could be threatened by migrants including talking about their level of wages or their working conditions this is very strong and then comes the cultural part which is to I
Guess as you do a very important part of that because of course main of the strangers coming in France come from Africa come from Middle East yeah mainly those are people uh Muslim people so here there is and we know that we know that in the United States in the whole Europe there
Is a topic about Islam in our societies and this is a complex a very complex uh thing which has to do with cultural difficulties so in my mind if you take the European societies at the American too again with some specif specificities I will come to specially
In France if you have when you have a more important uh migration in France and a very important change in migration as you know Peter France has been since always an immigration country yeah contrary to Italy to Spain but such as the US uh we have always been and we are
An immigration family but there is there is a change since 30 years which is that we have a migration coming from Africa and Middle East countries mostly Muslim people who came during the 50 the 60 beginning of the 70s to work after the second world world in France to rebuild
The country they first came as you know as uh there were men coming to work without the families yeah and then came the families of course because it’s a fundamental uh right to have your family with you and this is why hasn’t that right been now been called into
Question uh well the government tries to in the the debate in the migration debate in in December you had this suspect but and the government tries to but they won’t be able to do it because are very as you know strong commitments in the French Constitution European commitments International commitments which protects
That but we have to face that I take you an example Peter France is the country in the whole OCD where um stranger women have the lower level of work and I always in terms of uh of uh part of I mean part of the percentage of
The rate of those women Str women stranger women in France working yeah and this is very important for them for the economy but too for the integration of those women and the families we know that so instead of trying to imagine new laws which are non-constitutional we
Should try in France such as in other countries to work so that those women can work more this is is a parenthesis if I come back to to the question of Islam Islam is now which was not the case 30 years ago the religion of many French
People visible in the uh in the public space which is wonderful yeah including if you take the long history of France and the long history of contact such as as Colony power uh with Muslim countries it’s a beautiful thing but it can be sometimes difficult because it’s a
Change again in the situation of a global society which is changing and weakened on many grounds especially when you have uh the moment of the the history of the Islam in the world with a part of it integr movements in France such as in other count so if you add all
This you cannot be surprised that you have a node around this question of migration I think this is very natural so that’s what we have to work on and that’s why I do believe as you do that talking about migration in France such as in other countries we have a
Topic about social a social topic and economic topic a cultural topic yes I think this whole question of uh differing religions different the perception of differing Origins and a lot of it is exaggerated and here’s where I blame obviously the political class who try to make hay of that they
Try to exploit it to to make PE people fearful and vote for them uh but but also the media not so much education but I don’t think I think things need to be done at the level of Education uh that we we we need to seriously think about but that’s
All part of a a global problem uh what what I find interesting in what you’re saying and this is I’m going to ask you for your commentary on this is that what you mention is the problem of exactly the name of your organization which is solidarity it solidarity is an emotion
It’s a perception it’s a it it it’s not just it’s not legal it’s not uh something that’s determined by law it’s something that uh requires something we call empathy uh and it is a real concept and one that has always existed I think uh or or be
Given it’s been given a lot of emphasis in French culture and you find it in just the the fraternity which which Brotherhood that’s right Sisterhood which which is part of your slogan that’s right National slogan so um it seems to me that there’s a question of how you instill or how you
Return to an appreciation of the notion of solidarity and because that’s what your organization is dedicated to how do you how do you approach that well the fact is that um the the situation we we tried to describe about migration the fact that we have a weakened Society especially part of the
Middle classes which are weakened this is a reality you can see with the whole question of solidarity Brotherhood Sisterhood as you mentioned this is part of our very fundamental liberal frat this is France and it’s very key for us but this means and the the fact is
That if you take especially the French society but all the European societies the United States as you know better than I do work some kind of different way I’ll come back to that but in Europe mostly with some differences the country since the second world war you have
Systems of Sol solidarity which have been taking place especially in France with a very strong state public intervention I give you one example in France the poverty rate at now is 14% which is the the European the European average if we didn’t have the public transfers if it would be
22% I mean all the subsidies so in France we have a specificity which makes that we are one of in the USD countries one of the more protective countries especially because in France you have solidarity thanks to Charities but you have mostly and this is very French mostly solidarity is the uh comes
From public policies and if you come back to the the state of the the French society again when you have a uh middle classes weakened yeah on the social economic uh and cultural ground obviously during this since the second world war in France and the whole Europe
Middle classes have been the very heart the very core of solidarity including talking about about fiscal transfers yeah the taxpayers are the middle classes mainly and if we come back to the situation now where those middle classes are weakened on many grounds social economic income cultural so you can see that the
Very heart the very core of Brotherhood on the the economic ground of solidarity is weakened and that’s why we have this difficulties in the in the whole Europe um the rest Western World sorry in the whole of the western world yeah that’s right including if we as you know
In the United States we have the private part I mean of solidarity is much uh much more important so my problem is what my problem our problem my problem as president of this Federation of Charities is how to make live so solidarity in such a context we talked about foreigners with immigration but
Solidarity towards poor people people who cannot work people who have difficulties to work people who work but who are not paid enough to live out of poverty and my problem if we come back to what happened in December is that I feel and I fear a change of public policy from the
French government in that topic and this began with the immigration law which is that now you’re here in France but you have this very you had this before in the UK in Italy in other member states of Europe in the US of course this temptation in the middle
Classes in the popular classes working and weakened well the the responsi for our difficulties are poor people people who don’t work and especially forigners and that’s why I’m very concerned and that’s why it’s very difficult for our Charities to work in such a context which is again not only French which is
European West and Western so one of the principal causes as you say is is the weakening of the middle class uh and by that are you referring to the growing Gap in wealth equality or income equality is that is that one of the major factors or is or is that just one amongst
Others um I would say it’s Factor one it’s Factor number one uh I mean it’s easy you take um people working they work but they they have huge difficulties on the income side to to to live yeah and you see that as you know in many Western countries and this is
The effect of globalization which has many wonderful aspects but the aspects of have been the pressure on on uh on working on wages in Western countries I think has been huge and this makes that you have people in the middle class and the popular classes who work
They are not unemployed they work I take you an example of a French city noi beautiful French city in the the east of France you know you know the plas it’s a beautiful city in in in N 25% of the people that our Charities help in the
Streets of this of this city there not so many are some 25% are workers what we we’ve been calling for 10 years poor uh uh working pools which is something new in France yeah and this is mainly the reason why part I say part because one of my of my problem is that
In France such as and many countries including from the French government because this is now the obsession of the French government the the the weakness of the middle classes I must tell you that it’s to my obsession because I do believe that in our Western countries historically when middle
Classes I mean are deeply weakened this is a huge danger for our democracy so I do believe there is a very key problem there but the the problem is in my mind is what do you do then and what I see from the French commandment but such as the Italian one
And many others is well as we have this crisis of the middle classes first the responsibles for that other poor and especially the foreigners and second well um we forget that there are in our societies many people including in the medal classes who are uh in a good
Situation and that’s for me the the the the true question about solidarity if we do believe and I do believe that we have um weakened middle classes weakened popular classes and it’s a reality for many reasons income and cultural then how do we deal with that
In my mind first we must help by public policy and helping our Charities to help people to be able to work to go out from poverty and not forget that there are many people in our societies who are in a good situation and who should contribute more to
Solidarity yes that’s what I what I was referring to when I said the media has a responsibility in this it’s a message that has to be transmitted and understood uh and for some reason that’s not happening but I’m going to shift gears a little bit and move to uh the geopolitical situation
You you began your career as a diplomat so you’re fully aware of all the things that are going on obviously I think in terms of immigration the major thing that we’ve been experiencing you you mentioned the immigrants from from Africa which uh and North Africa which
Initially was the result of uh the end of colonization so it was a natural movement which every European every Colonial European nation has has experienced uh and that is an an interesting cultural problem in itself uh people who were part of us as a political
Entity uh and who are no longer part of us are they still part of us so but then what you’ve had and this is what your experience I think and I’d like to to hear what you have to say about it is that over the last 25 years with the
Especially American military policy in the Middle East and North Africa and French French as well um with Libya in particular uh you’ve had this ma these massive waves of IM immigration that have nothing to do with with colonialism or the colonial tradition um and now we’re seeing we have new Wars going on
Now doesn’t that complicate the thing doesn’t that the the whole business of understanding and creating some some sort of empathy that it it it’s an aggravating factor I should think it is it is and I you know the feeling I have I don’t know if you feel
That that way Peter but I do believe that in our Western societies people are in French we say buul moved I mean you see there are so many changes uh globalization and pressure on wages uh Islam uh migrations um and we know artificial intelligence that’s right uh and of of course ecological ecological
Changes and we know that part of the the the the explanation of all that I mean not ecological situation is the change the changes at the international level which is that the Western world is not as dominant as it used to be and especially Europe is
Not as dominant as it used to be globalization has changed very deeply all that and we see that now and this is a very this is part of the the notes and the part of what people in especially in France but not only have in mind especially with the UK the the Russian
Aggression against Ukrainian you have a a general climate there which is very uh uh threatens so the fact is that when we talk about the the the GE geopolitical political specs from the French perspective we come to the French specificities in the international the Western crisis I would say that we have some
Specific specificities in France which is we talked a little about that about solidarity in France we have an important state as you know state in France in our history this is monarchy this is the French Revolution the French Republic there is a centralization the state is something very important the second
Element which is a specificity in France to understand the situation in which we are now on many topics is that um we have this this colonialist history you were talking about which is very important because it’s part of our review on the world yeah and because it’s part of of
As you said of our social reality which is something very very positive but which which is not always all easy to deal with and the French society has changed very much and then you have a difference between the social reality which is very rich very mixed uh and the perception that that
People are but again those are changes which are not easy for everybody in the in the French society and you have another French specificity that you know well Peter because you know well France including with the sometimes kind of arrogance we can have as French people you know that we French people do
Believe that we have a vision of the world since the French Revolution and this is something I think that seen from other countries it’s something I think which can seems arogant sometimes but it’s something too very positive so if we you take all that it’s true that
France remains a global actor as you know we are a member permanent member of the security Council of the United Nations but in the a change which is changing very much in the which I mean Europe and Western countries are are not so strong as they used to be and this is
Part to of the difficulties of our country to find a good place to be in a moment in which we have to face very important questions we talked about migrations especially coming from for former colonies but for me the main question is the question of Russia of
The the Russian threat threat in Europe in the whole world and the way we we we have to defend democracy in this context and this is something very key in France the whole world some people are asking the question do we have a functioning democracy to defend uh because obviously
We have elections we have political parties we have all the rituals of of politics um but a lot you can we really say uh as a country and as a part let’s say part of part of Europe obviously Europe is is part it’s an ambiguous part of French
Identity today that that itself is a question is how how European is any European country and France in particular uh and then there’s the question of of the West so given all those questions of identity uh and the fact that we identify that with democracy isn’t there a lot of ambiguity
About the idea that we can represent uh a cause that can be called democracy and that we should be constantly obsessed by the threats to it whereas the threats may be internal that’s what we’re seeing in the U I have two nationalities French and and us and
Um I was totally shocked but not surprised by Trump’s election in 2016 that seemed to me that totally contradictory with all the ideas we had of democracy um and now FR Trump is likely to be elected again and we’ve seen what that means now can people really believe the
Way we did in the past the way I did when I I grew up uh that democracy was a functioning system and that our what we have to do now is is to defend it or is it to restore democracy well the fact is that democracy is a constant
Fight in my mind is the our key treasure and the threat is internal we see that and I think it has much to see with what we were talking about again when you have middle classes which is which used to be during those those past years the very heart of of
Our democracies when they are weakened democracy is weakened and we know that there are many many very huge threats we see that in the us but we see that in France and the whole Europe so for me it’s the main fight but yes my answer to your question is we are
Democracies and we have to fight for that because we are now facing threats which are internal but which are external and vital and I do believe and I’m very proud of Europe and I’m very happy to have seen the us being so present uh fa to face the Russian invasion of
Ukraine and this in my mind and this is my answer to your question yes we are democracies yeah we are weaken democracies yes our first Tas task is to defend democracy in our countries but in my mind we are facing uh countries Powers which are constantly explicitly fighting against
Democracy this is the way I see it yes and I do believe this is very key I I I’m I’m just about to finish this book you may know Emanuel St who takes a a a different a different uh has a different take on on all that um there’s one thing
Because as as an American I would like Mr Todd to defend democracy I’m not sure he’s defending democracy has he used he should do I well I I I don’t know what he does what he thinks personally but um I I I I don’t think he would he he’s against
Democracy uh the the the point he makes or other people like him make is that uh democracy has evolved in a context that um that that has made it to be perceived by a threat in the in the in the the global South and uh this is the the whole thesis I think
Of no I I don’t share that Peter and this is can be a disagreement but I really don’t you know I think there are many reasons for my my feelings about all that maybe because I’m a former Diplomat and I know as you do living together together is not
Natural living together in a democracy is still less natural maybe is it because of my personal famal history which is that you know I will always remember my grandmother showing me in Belling those pictures of little girls who disappeared in the sh so I think that there is something very strong for
Me which is that there is nothing stronger than democracy I do believe that you know I’m French I know the French history uh I’m very proud of French history and I know that there are moment in our histories that I’m not proud of such as in other countries
We’ve been a colonial power I’m very proud of all those French people who were minority who fight who’ve been fighting against that with an immense courage but we are democracies and I think that there is a kind of relativism uh which which is a problem in my mind uh the global
South who can believe that the global South will find a way out of democracy I don’t think that so I do believe that the threats are huge inside our societies and that’s my fight as yours yeah but I do believe that we must be very clear on the fact that talking
About Russia talking about China we are facing systems which are explicitly enemies of democracy and I would like the South to be clearer about that I I I push back on that because I I think it’s wrong to say they are not democracies that’s clear and I totally
Agree with you personally I I like to live in a democracy and one of the things I like about living in a democracy is that I have a voice and that I can do something and feel that I’m doing something possibly to to to make it more viable and more
Convivial for for everyone uh who lives there so that’s that’s an important aspect of life for me and the values we have I can understand however that other nations for historical reasons and cultural reasons uh are not democracies in fact I mean democracy is a very recent development in the west isn’t it
Uh the US was the first national democracy you had Athens which was a city but um the first national democracy was the US and then it so we’ve all adopted the features of democracy but I still raise the question that I think Emanuel Todd and others would agree with
Is we don’t know what we’re doing with our democracies and we’re not applying them necess we’re not necessarily applying them in a democratic way when we we talked about inequality of income and wealth that’s a democratic question as well there must be ways of creating the kind of solidarity that
Means that the wealth that we have collectively is somehow somehow dist not just distributed because that’s a very mechanical way of looking at it but shared shared and and and invested in mutually by the different classes of society and there will always be different classes um I I’m I I’m I’m totally
Opposed to the illusion that democracy means everyone is totally equal and will all always behave according to the same sets of values there will be a diversity of values and there will be a diversity of straighter uh of people who are active in the society working consuming whatever they’re
Doing but it seems to me that um there are other models of society that because they are not Democratic do not necessarily mean that they’re threatening democracies if we took care of our democracies we would feel a lot less threat from those who are not democracies so I I’m very skeptical
About I I I I don’t share the end of your of your of your comment I do share the your point which is that you know I do believe that in the period of time uh people Rich classes to say something uh directly Rich classes rich people in the
The Western world are in a Comm committing suicide and this suicide is a suicide against democracy because you know there is um a famous lenina said something like I think in 1921 he said the capitalists they will sold us the thing to hang us to hang them yeah the rope to
Hang us yeah and this is the Sude of of rich people in some period of histri and I think we are in this period of time in our societies so I do believe as you do Peter that democracy cannot survive to uh uh uh to to to inequalities that’s
Why that’s the Reas very key reason of my fight for solidarity which is dignity and democracy yeah and I do believe as you do that those inequalities in the world and inside our societies are a key Democratic problem I do completely share this point of view okay so you you mentioned the Russian
Threat um and so has uh Emanuel Ma um what how what is your reaction to his suggestion that there may be French troops or european troops on the ground in Ukraine well as you know I think as I understand that the president wanted to show our common
Determination and that’s I think it’s a good thing it doesn’t seem very common these days well you know things change change you know what is said today will be said I think in sometimes I think it’s very important that the Russian power which works on that
Ground and this kind of because this is the way the the Russian regime Works they have to to know that our determination is complete in the defense of ukia and and democracy and the the president said as you know he said uh it’s something that cannot be excluded
But there is no consensus for that that’s all yes so it just means that we will do what will be necessary to defend ukrania and democracy and I do believe that it’s a good thing actually I read that in the in a a broader context uh of macron’s commitment which has long been
The case to creating an autonomous European Defense System or security system and that to me makes a lot of sense but the fact that you have to speak you have to present it in terms that sound like brinkmanship that sound like uh an in invitation to begin World War III and a nuclear
Holocaust uh seems to me an abuse of language and possibly an abuse of democracy itself um the the question the the question and I I think we’ll have to end this pretty quickly but the question about um the cause in Ukraine it would make a lot more sense
To me if I knew what it meant to defend Ukraine does it mean to take back all the territory the the Russians have had or does it mean to find some kind of a some kind of agreement whereby peace can be established whatever the terms of that
Peace are you know it’s the the country which has been invaded which has to decide yes but it’s a comp I mean it was a country that’s been in a Civil War for the last 10 years so uh yes but I I do believe you know U as a
Former director of the French Agency for refugees I have uh it’s been a long time that I’ve been I’ve been having no doubts about Putin and his regime and I was very you know I remember very well when I was in libanon welcoming Syrian people going away from aleep under Russian
Bombs I remember very well all those chan people in France whose father fathers had to flee U grne completely destroyed so I personally know and I I do believe that we’ve been waiting too long in the Western World to understand what this regime was now we understand it
Now there is a a direct aggression to uh a democratic country to a European country to a free country so we have to do what we have to do and we have to uh I’m very glad it has been a good surprise for my in my mind to see the European helping Ukraine
Ukraine that way and it will be up to Ukrainian to decide uh at which moment they will negotiate but you don’t negotiate with a country which decided to destroy you and I always say you it’s not only ukrania it’s Europe and democracy they will decide and we will have to help them to
Be as strong as possible to be in a situation to have peace talks but it’s not the moment for peace talks it’s the moment to show Russia that it cannot win this aggression uh all right I think I think it’s well I think it’s much more complex than that
Because if you’re looking at an outcome where Ukraine successfully defend itself the way you’re you’re describing it it means weakening Russia to use the terms of Lloyd Austin uh which presumably means ending the Putin regime but is there any reason to think think that whatever happens afterwards in Russia is going to be
Better or different than what it is now sometimes this I know that diplomats don’t have to think too much yeah they have to learn their and and you know I’m I’m both a former Diplomat and a former football player yeah but there is a very specifical so
First we have to show Russia and the and and not Russia the Putin regime because we have to be here with all you know I suppose you have read those letters between Naval and Shoni no I haven’t please do Peter it’s much more interesting that to if I can
Say that it’s beautiful it’s beautiful you know if you want to find good reasons not to leave any any inch against all those forces inside and outside against democracy read that and it’s beautiful so we have to show to this power to this Russian power that they cannot
Win and the you you were talking about the nuclear uh threat the first and the only one who who use this threat is Putin well I as an American I can say well I’m I’m the only country that’s ever used it against actually used it against civilan populations so I have a
Also I you know I I grew up during the Cold War and um my personal life was somewhat traumatized by the Vietnam War um so I see a certain pattern uh that’s playing out again in today which worries me in terms of US policy not talking about French policy
Um so that leads to a different interpretation of the same events so I don’t think we’re going to agree on that no I don’t think so but what I can share with you Peter is our concern and and you won’t be surprised and I think you said something like that too it’s true
That from a French and European perspective our own contradictions are difficulty for us but I must tell you that the situation of the US democracy is something that worries us very very much that’s obious and you have right to say that in French positions about uh foreign policies this is a very key
Aspect and including with the aspect you mentioned very truly which is the necessity in our mind to have a Europe common defense because we don’t know what can happen with our American that’s the key to everything and I think I may be wrong but I think the Russians or
Putin would have been but that’s speculation he he would have been reasonably happy had Europe actually created some kind of system with in in which there was was a conversation with Russia as well no Peter I’m sorry to tell you that you believe no no really I I I think we know
Who Putin is really And discussing with Putin I let you do that but I think that we know and part of people who have been knowing that you know I’m a very good friend of Jonathan little as you know is a French writer he knows very well and
He told me that very long he said Putin it’s the Soviet Union s kibi and this is the people we are facing now and we are going they won’t win this war they won’t win it it’s impossible well a lot of people say the opposite they’ve already won it but I I
I won’t get into that we won’t be sles the only I would say I will I’m part of the people who will never accept to be slaves where where I really disagree with you and a lot of other people is that I don’t think focusing on one person even though they’re the leader
And that even concerns Trump who is a real odd case um I don’t believe that one person defines a nation the nation defines the person who’s running it and if it’s Putin today it’ll be somebody if it’s no longer Putin tomorrow it’ll be somebody else who would probably do
Something very similar because he expresses the nature of the Russian system in its position on the world world map today and but it’s not a reason to accept it but I don’t think you a reason to accept it and I but it’s not a reason to to go to war
With it either so they go they went to war Peter we didn’t go to war they didn’t go to war with Europe they went to war with Ukraine yes and I do believe that Ukraine is US ah but that’s but that’s a big question okay so at least
We know what we disagree about I think we we AG of course of course Peter okay it was great speaking with you it’s a pleasure really thank you very much for your time and really thank you very much indeed there was a really open conversation yeah that’s great we need that those
Times we need that thank you very much that is exactly what we do and that is democracy yeah of course of course it’s a pleasure on that on that optimistic note we’ll close this discussion I thank you again and thank you very much to youer take care take care you too bye
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