For the individual to evolve they had to purify the soul I had to purify it from the the some of the external and and some of the karmic or internal configurations that we all have some of the the complexes that uh We’ve either inherited or we’ve actually developed
Over time so they took purification as a part of the tenants for especially for novices to be able to arrive at the state to do some spiritual research spiritual investigation and those practices have actually been continued and are part of the of the Miriam that enabled to to be able to trans transmit
Uh healing energy you need to be you need to reach a level of Purity and not so much in the moral sense but in the initiatic sense in the sense that Consciousness needs to be able to separate itself from the mundane to be able to go inside and find this uh realm
Of of being that is uncontaminated from the from from the exponents of of the physical or the mundane world Welcome to Rebel Spirit radio exploring the frontiers of spirituality Consciousness the esoteric and Humanity’s sacred relationship with the Living Earth I’m your host Nick Mather and in this episode I am joined by author David Pantano to discuss his book the Hermetic physician the magical teachings of Giuliano krameritz in the fraternity of
Marion David provides background on Juliano kramerz the leading esoteric figure of the Italian hermetic tradition in the early 20th century he discusses the therapeutic magic of the fraternity of Miriam and its connection to the mystical Pythagorean tradition also please be sure to like And subscribe to this podcast on whatever
Platform you use to listen to or view podcasts your support is truly appreciated David Pantano is an independent researcher translator historian and writer specializing in spirituality metaphysics philosophy and the initiatic practices of West and East is the author of The Magic Door he joins me today to discuss the
Hermetic physician the magical teachings of Giuliano kramerz and the fraternity of Miriam a compilation of essays he collected and translated David welcome to Rebel Spirit radio thank you Nick and um good afternoon to and depending on your time zone too all the listeners and viewers across
This Fair land and fair lands all over wherever you may be listening or you’re watching this podcast it’s nice to be here thanks yeah thank you thank you I’m looking forward to speaking with you because quite honestly I didn’t know anything at all about Giuliano uh kremmerts and I know I’m
Probably slaughtering the name and you even told me how to pronounce it cram hurts and the other figure here is Marco Daffy these are the two people that feature in your book and I thought that the best place to begin this conversation was to ask you to discuss
Them a little bit who were they and what were their roles in this italic hermetic tradition okay you sure be happy to Nick so basically Kremer says the without a doubt the leading uh hermeticist esoteric figure in Italy in in the last century he’s the equivalent
Would be similar to like a Crowley in the English-speaking world so he’s he’s and for for people who may be familiar with some aspects of the Italian hermetic tradition through say Julius Avila who’s a very well-known author now even in an English-speaking world is something that Ebola would would look up
To and and would would reference in terms of his books they’re either the or group monographs or the book he did on their meta tradition or a number of books he he quotes and he um refers to kremitsu’s magisterium of writings and practices so we’re talking
At somebody who’s both a theorist and a practitioner of hermetics and the the branch of hermeticism that cremaritz is is probably best known for uh is in the area of Therapeutics is to apply these hidden laws or occult laws into practices of healing in terms of of either relieving of pain or curing
Altogether so he developed Kramer it’s developed or founded a circle called the therapeutic magical fraternity of Miriam around the turn of the last century so the late 1890s and they had various chapters throughout the major cities of Italy and it’s basically it was a hierarchy of five degrees
And the the the school there was a school attached to it where the study the the practices of hermeticism and not just restricted to to medicine or or Therapeutics but to the broad application of the various other branches of of hermeticism such as Alchemy and crg Magic astrology Etc and so Kramer’s founded
This school called the Miriam based on the application of natural and divine magic so magic that phone did on natural forces and those that went beyond the natural into the metaphysical Realm and so in terms of his importance as I mentioned it’s the kremaritz wrote around 20 books that laid out a pretty
Sophisticated and detailed Theory and practicum of Applied magic specifically to to Therapeutics and one of his disciples was a baron named Richard Deli and who went under the pseudonym of Marco dafi and krameritz is I guess the tombstone information he was born in 1861 died in 1930 and Daffy was born in
1900 and died in 1969 and sort of Daffy kind of continued that wave of of of her medical alchemical hermetic practices and wrote a number of books about much less about a dozen or so books on aspects such as alchemical hermeticism on on Therapeutics as well on Eros on avatars and reincarnation on
Various aspects of divination divination using um instruments such as the tarot or the the Chinese book of changes the aiching so they were both embedded within a practice that had its roots in this italic branch of hermeticism so I’m going to say italic I mean both the Italian and the Roman period
And there were various against isms or or temples of Isis in ancient Rome and with that there were some practices specifically with healings in terms of dream healing and and other types of of medications using energies and using uh tapping into various State Altered States Of Consciousness to be able to
Get out to the causal or to get to the karmic level of individuals so to address or root out the some of the causal or root basic root issues that may be afflicting individuals so in in a short in a nutshell in in the you know the Kohl’s notes version it’s
Basically the leading hermeticists of the Day in Italy who developed who founded a school to pre to study and practice hermeticism with an outlet that focused on on healing on Therapeutics and from that there was a number of of Publications books articles rituals that are part of this tradition
That kremits was was the founder of and it’s under the rubric of the fraternity of Miriam okay wonderful a lot of information there and some of it I would like to unpack but first I I’m familiar with Jules Ebola that’s a name that brings a bell but I’d never heard of cremirtz before
His Works readily available or isn’t it that the Hermetic physician is one of the very first English translations of his works yeah that actually the Hermetic physician is one of the is the first bio on Kremer it’s an English language Kramer’s work because the Miriam is a reserved
Initiatic Circle it wasn’t open it didn’t advertise in newspapers it’s not like some some of these rosicrucian orders that have you know the that advertise at your your local corner and so forth and try to recruit members it wasn’t like that it was very much a
Reserved and they wanted to to weed out the those serious Seekers versus those who are curious or or didn’t have the right Constitution to go and do some of this inner work so for for many years for many decades the material was known just to a few connoisseurs of desert tourism and those
Individuals interested in the Hermetic branch of hazardism I would say around the 80s and 90s um that his work started to get more prominence of some of the leading Publishers across Europe not only in Italy but in France and in Spain started translating and Publishing his work
Because of the quality of the material uh the theorems that you really couldn’t find elsewhere um the Hermetic practices that the Miriam is based on is more on the greco-egyptian Roman type of practices rather than say the judeo one that says more associated with the Golden Dawn and
So forth so these practices probably have a very strong and deep Western route to them are gaining more favors as as individuals are looking for you know information on the roots of of a western esoteric tradition rather than going to the east whether it’s in you know from
Israel or or India or China or Tibet or whatever and the the kremaritz and this lineage of of teachings I think fits into that category of a autonomous Western initiatic tradition that has its roots in Egypt Greece and Rome and also was transplanted into the into the Renaissance the Hermetic books of of
Hermes the Corpus hermeticum was lost in the western world for for about a million a millennium and a half and they were founded around the 1440s by a Italian monk who brought them back to Florence and the patron of Florence at that time Cosimo de Medici had the leadings neoplatonic scholar neomarcilio fagino
To translate them from them there was this huge boom of hermeticism and this tradition of italic or italian-based hermeticism that really was relaunched with the with the discovery in a translation of these ancient Greek Corpus of hermetic books into Latin and then into the into the vernacular had
Has gone on for about 500 years and kremets was the latest of the epigons of this tradition and you mentioned Julius avalov in the late 20s who founded a circle called the your group and uh some of the members were from krameritz’s circle of Miriam and they were
Contributors in the in those three volumes that are published by Inner Traditions the publishing house that publishes the book that that I put together a hermetic position yeah wonderful thank you for all of that I was curious in the the kind of focus on this italic tradition a little bit that
It seems like one of the major themes as well and we’ll get into the healing aspects and this surprised me a little bit was kind of a focus on pythagoreanism or Pythagoras the teachings of Pythagoras and I never actually kind of connected Pythagoras with any kind of hermeticism
Yeah well so a little background on Pythagoras Pythagoras was a a Mystic as well as a scientist so there there are two components to pythagorism there’s the right the rational that follows I mean the the Pythagoras or is alleged because there is no actual writings from Pythagoras but there are
From from his disciples and from the members of the school was the first to promote the the root of of of reality as being in numbers so mathematical theorems like to titratus have its roots in in the Pythagorean school and the discovery of the irrational number so a lot of the the
Mathematical theorems that came down from Greece were originated from this Pythagorean school but there was also another sign of Pythagoras is a Mystic side and that apparently before he found it and Pythagoras founded a school in actual southern Italy people may not be aware of that so there
Is this tradition in southern Italy of this pythagore pythagoreanism that has both a scientific or mathematical component as well as a mystical component and some of the tenets of Pythagoras reincarnation as the the pursuit of self-discover discovery that going inside yourself to find yourself and not just solely basing your
Information on inputs from the five external senses there’s various practices or rituals they did in terms of for novices had to go through a five-year period of Silence uh which was a part of purification that the for the individual to evolve they had to purify the soul and had to purify
It from the the some of the external and and some of the karmic or internal configurations that we all have some of the the complexes that uh We’ve either inherited or we’ve actually developed over time so they took purification as a uh part of the tenants for especially
For novices to be able to arrive at the state to do some spiritual research spiritual investigation and those practices have actually been continued and they’re part of the of the Miriam that enabled to to be able to trans transmit uh healing energy you need to
Be you need to reach a level of Purity and not so much in the moral sense but in the initiatic sense in the sense that Consciousness needs to be able to separate itself from them in Dane to be able to go inside and find this realm of
Of being that is uncontaminated from the from from the exponents of of the physical or the mundane world and again I’ll leave it to you Nick how far you want to dwell into that but so I just wanted to answer your question that pythagorism that took mysticism and gave
It a scientific coding as the basis of this italic tradition so it’s a key Foundation of of of the italic initiatic tradition as part of internal investigation is that you have to have uh experiential proof or validity to the theorems and not just take it on what the teacher what the master prescribes
Right yeah thank you for all of that you know I knew about the mystical aspects of Pythagoras and that it was initiatory as well the it was noted I think in one of the footnotes in the book there was comments about the teachings of arate which is Excellence or virtue and the
What you had just said the sort of integration of the esoteric and the scientific and this is the point I was really thinking about in terms of commerics because it seems like there there was this connection of human evolution attempting to become more excellent humans is that correct am
I on the right track there yeah I mean that’s one way to frame it the other is that as beings we we all have a sense of perfection at the core and that the more we extenuate out and get caught up into the workings of the world we become
Contaminated so by doing these purificatory acts we’re able to get to that level of perfection which is the root of who we are and that root of who we are has a name it’s called the Newman it’s the core of consciousness of individual Consciousness and in his teaching and in Pythagorean teaching it
Doesn’t die it isn’t perishable like the historical self the self of the Flesh and Bones itself that gets up you know Monday you know Monday to Friday and goes to work every day that spark of of Consciousness the Newman is itself perfect in its own right
Okay and I also noted in one of the essays it discusses that there is no um matter Spirit dualism that everything comes from the one and I I really liked in one of the essays it said the spirit materializes in matter is spiritualized yeah I mean that’s that’s part of the
Teachings is that there is a Unity or there isn’t this division between the various levels of of of energy it’s all one energy that just it just the various vibrational frequencies Associated and that and that’s all part of the The Cremation or their the Hermetic world view of of realities broken down into
Four major components and the terminology that they use based on mythological classifications is a physical world or highlight World which is what the Greeks called they call it saturnian and then what sublimated from that saturnian or that physical world is a lunar and the lunar is basically a more
Higher vibrational frequency than the physical but it’s still on the physical level and that’s we associate with our emotions with the humeric level of of individuals or beings and then a farther sublimated energetic component is a Mercurial that of intelligence and then that the highest is what we
Talked about is the Newman is at the solar level and that’s that that core being that we want to experience where the Miriam which Miriam is is a new euphemism for not only for the in religious terms and especially in the west of the Maria of the the mother of
God who gives birth to the Divine but it’s a state of Purity it’s a state that can be realized through these purification acts to be able to come to the to the principle of of our being and that’s all one energy it just has various vibrational components or frequencies that that constitute reality
And that most people are spent most people’s Center consciousnesses is at that the physical level through their external senses and that’s the only level of reality that they’re aware of and other than when they have to use their their Noggin in to come up with
Some you know this is to come up with some idea or a way out of a problem or something like that or they have an emotional you know reaction and so forth but a lot of times it’s not integrated we fragment into into these various uh subsections of this one energy well what
The Miriam teaches you is that it’s all interconnected and within each cell within Consciousness itself it’s all we have access to those four different Realms and from that we’re able to be able to shift our focus our Consciousness into higher levels or levels where the laws of of gravity for
Example are are there are greater sense greater opportunities or potentiality for freedom so at at the say at the lunar level in terms of Dreams or or ecstasies and so forth the the laws in terms of of what constitutes the the the gravity or the the frequency
Of the vibration is much less and at a high lick level or at the physical level and the same with intelligence and then those who are able to to reach sort of that Pinnacle which that solar level or access to the past present and the
Future all at once the the laws of of the mechanics of that uh realm of of energy of forces is much Freer much greater than the ones that own at the mundane level so yeah to your point it’s all considered as one even though we can experience various levels of
Consciousness or various levels of of vibrational frequencies which are called in in the terminology of the school as the four that I mentioned right so the it’s like an Ascent then is that correct and that Ascent to the solar because what I’m thinking I wouldn’t use I mean
A lot of times those words are used figuratively I mean when we’re talking here we’re at we’re already at the liminal level where the words that we have conversational words do not match the experiences we’re trying to describe so a lot of times we decide we see we
Say talk about a sense we’re thinking of you know some sort of Escape or some sort of you know elevation of the spirit or something it can be like that and most times it’s not and most times it’s just it’s it’s all it’s all interconnected and kremerit says that
All four of these hermetic bodies so these various states are called hermetic bodies are experienced at once we just don’t realize it depending on the in individuals initiatic level they’re mostly centered in one level or the other but the the initiate the adapt can experience all
All of them and it’s once because it’s all Unified so I try to avoid to use words like I said it can be you can have those aha moments where you break through the quotidian and and you’re in this you know there’s this this nervanic state of
Of bliss and and illumination but that is also can be experienced it’s the sense of of that solar once you’re at that level where it’s all interconnected and there isn’t a division this Consciousness is just once it’s just one it’s just that focusing at a different levels will give you different previews
Of what of of inputs what you’re going to see of what you’re going to experience okay so instead of thinking in terms of a set it’s probably better to think in terms of like a holism that or holistic that it’s like you said that it’s all at
Once that we experience them all at the same time or it it can be drawn upon you have access to to it all as once yeah so so the ability uh to to one who is integrated to their principle is that’s their starting point most people’s starting point is is their historic self
It’s Nick and Dave and and you know that we relate to reality based on our historical reference points the initiate or the ad debt they’re basing it from their Newman from that point of Consciousness which isn’t contaminated by the the physical but yet can emanate out to the physical
Okay and how do these four bodies play in the Hermetic healing okay good so it’s it plays into hermetic healing in a number of aspects probably the two most prominent are in terms of diagnosis and in terms of therapy so to be able to understand the depth or the
Level of the the pathology that you’re dealing with so much like a doctor would do a diagnosis you would understand in terms of if an individual comes to the Miriam for healing certain diagnoses I guess for lack of a better word or undertaken to understand the depth and the the the the significance
Of the disturbance that they’re dealing with so it could be something of the emotional level which means that the the prescription the rituals or the energy that needed to be transferred would be focused from that realm more so than in a Physical Realm or it can be at a karmic level
You know these are disturbances that are so deep ingrained that any type of physical or emotional or or or Mercurial type of theories wouldn’t would only be able to scratch the surface and the the amount of reconfiguring at that level to be able to readjust the the the the the the
Disturbance that’s causing the out the symptoms which is a lot of times is what’s being what’s being communicated from the patient to to the Miriam is the symptoms I’m having headaches or I’m having just having problems with family members or something like that one part
Of the diagnosis is to get down and and at the causal level to understand what’s really at what level is the disturbance originating from and from then they could through from from there once they’re able to diagnose what the the degree of the disturbance and the level of of the Hermetic body
That’s mostly involved then the the next step is to prescribe the appropriate Remedy or solution okay and the remedies and solutions here the main thing I got out of this was that it was a kind of remote prayer where you had a group of I guess initiates that would focus is energy or
Vibration on the healing am I on the right path there yeah somewhat so it’s it’s more than that so the the Miriam and and krameritz was he he he Not only was a practitioner who bases work on experience he he’s he did many years of schooling and in some
Of the occult schools in France specifically in in southern France but he also had a degree in conventional medicine as well and as part of the tenants of the Miriam was that the the this energetic healing or remote healing of the Miriam was the complement conventional medicine it wasn’t it
Didn’t come as a Panacea to solve all problems and Daffy the the disciple and and the the author of the book says you know it’s mostly for the venial type of of disturbances or villains as venial being those that are of a medium level that the ones that were were much more
Serious than there there were much other type of of prescriptions that would be required the Miriam was more of a lunar based um uh hermetic Circle and rather than than a solar and so what that means is that they receive energy so most of the energy that they work from is based on
Magnetism the interconnection between Celestial terrestrial and human energy it’s all a Continuum um the the the the history of that goes back hundreds of years to France Anton Mesmer a Swiss magnetist and and the the French were very strong in in that as well so Kramer is going to continue that
That form of of healing using magnetism where he added elements is is is adding various types of rituals and another type of means to reach that level of Purity that would be greater conductive to restore the balance to the to The Afflicted individual in the end there
Were three types or three modalities of of healing one is a direct where the the the type of of illness was was described and diagnosed and the type of energy would would act directly on what was a disturbance so someone’s having some emotional issues so the type of practice
Involved would be to transmit energy that would set lead to a homeostasis of someone’s emotional state of being so some like you’re with you listen to music and so you’re feeling crappy and you listen to music and it raises your spirits up and and by the end of the
Song or the album you’re feeling much better working on that type of energy exchange so that’s a direct type of of healing modality this the other type is is the indirect that would focus on on instruments to assist the the individual and this could be some things that are more focused on
Saying physical ailments so where energy would be focused on say vegetables or or or other or other types of objects that the that could be magnet the potent power of the of the actual intervention would be enhanced through through this exchange of energy the third type would be a neutral that was
Not only directly healing and indirect but combined both and and again a lot of the the appropriate a lot of times the appropriate uh prescription depended on the ability to diagnose the clarity of the symptoms to understand what is underlying the unbalance of the individual in the end because this is a
A lunar type of practice it works on the individuals receiving this energy healing themselves so very much on the homeostasis so when when individuals are sick they’re balanced or natural healthy balance is out of whack and how this energy helps is to finding the right
Sympathies to be able to negate or or to nullify some of those negative energies with the positive energy and to lead to a homeostasis where over time the individual can heal themselves okay these energies are also the energies of the cosmos is that right so I mean
Energy is all once we talked about earlier so whether we call it Cosmos or whether we call it metaphysics where we call it natural it’s all one it has just various levels of of of electrodynamic Dynamics associated with it so the Miriam based on some of the rituals to be able to
Tap into a level of Purity and the type of energy depending on what was required to balance the imbalance of the patient would so it would do would tap into various type of of if you want to use the word cosmological or astrological astronomical type of energies based on
Uncertain configurations that the the of of of astrological Dimensions so for example we know the four seasons four different energies associated in the winter time cold and dry summertime hot and dry and then so on so understanding the properties associated with the calendar and the various energies that are
Accentuated based on the time based on the astrological or astronomical powers and and and virtues that are potentially can be tapped into those so there is quite a sophisticated analysis based on the harmonization of the microcosm with the macrocosm microcosm being the individual their stated being with the the greater
Macrocosm of of the cosmos of the universe okay and would the uh healing rituals then also take place because this is according to the you know because one of the things I noticed in the book is there was a focus on um the days of the week and I also think
The planetary hours and so in to affect a healing would that then be like oh well if this person is suffering from this we have to do this ritual on Wednesday during the hour that you know Mercury is you know Mercury’s hour or something like that is that the way yeah I mean
I mean the the logos yeah that you that you’re trying to form here is is what we’re talking about the difference though is this is something that just wasn’t made up on the Fly this this has a tradition and Legacy going back to to paracelsus and going back to the books of Hermes
Himself where they actually talk about various aspects and virtues that are accentuated at their various times of the year based on the calendars the Egyptian ancient Egyptian ancient Chaldean calendars as well so the you know and the people who are familiar with us and they say well this
Is a bunch of hokey is that again you as the example I talked about before the energies that your experience I’m here in in Toronto now in in mid July in in in July is different than the energies the the climate the the effects that we have in mid-January in Toronto
Huge difference and so what does that mean in in in July people are more affected with swelling they’re more effective to get issues with the skin in the winter time it’s much it’s it’s a drier it’s colder so you may have more issues in terms of of other factors and
In the in the spring with the humidity you may have issues with rheumatism and arthritis so it’s looking at these calendars that go back thousands of years and and the various properties and virtues associated with the various meteorological configurations that that’s been recorded in practiced and it’s it’s understanding
What are The Virtuous or the remeding energies to balance out unbalanced energies of the of The Afflicted individual is what we’re looking at here so it’s not so much you know you know if I tap into you know Aries I’m going to get you know something like a Ram or something
Energies associated with with stubbornness and or you know with persistence and so forth it’s much more sophisticated than that in that there are manuals that look at the healing properties based on various aspects of of the time of the year and the various hours of the year and they give you an
Example and that the dreams that you have say at some of the transitional points in the time of the day say around Vespers around this time around 5 30 are much different than the dreams that you have say around three o’clock in the morning much much more prone for Lucid
Dreamings around the hours of Vesper so when Venus comes out in the morning just an hour before sunrise and and an hour before Sunset as well those transitionary times are much more prone or much more favorable for lucid dreaming so the the ancient scribes and and and and Scholars and and and doctors
And and they were made notes of these practices and and they categorized them and and they were contained within books that weren’t shared with the with everyone because they were shared with those who were specialized in this type of occult healing or or occult Therapeutics okay and if I understand correctly uh
Crameritz wanted this healing to be available to people for free that you never wanted to charge now was this open only to initiates or would anyone be able to seek this kind of feeling I almost to anyone and it was so the the practices the the Miriam
The the one of the I guess the drivers for kremits to start the Miriam was that at the time that in the late 1800s in Europe they’re reflected by cholera pandemics and people were dying left and right so not too dissimilar to the pen the pandemic that we just
Came out of a couple years ago and so he you know instead he wanted a to to focus on developing psychic psychic practices in individual or cult powers for for for good causes and not just for you know for for to inflate the ego or or to have power over other
Individuals and so forth I wanted to use it to help people basically help themselves help us help his family so the the the onus of zon was on Therapeutics even though these practices in these laws once they’re learned of the of how to develop and and how to
Cultivate these uh occult faculties and and inner powers are available for other other applications besides healing kremeritz decided that to put this put this Miriam into use as a confraternity to heal people who were who were didn’t were conventional medicine had given up hope and so it was done free of charge
But the one the one Clause was that the individual had to come and ask the the members of the Miriam for help um there had to be a Harmony it had to be a sympathy between the practitioner and the recipient because if they came in they were skeptical if there was if
They had the wrong attitude then that harmonic transference would be difficult to connect in which case the Miriam couldn’t help much so there needed to be a a sympathy sympathetic bond between the recipient and the practitioner so the money wasn’t part of the deal it wasn’t the it Kramers didn’t prohibit initiates in the Miriam not to use these powers and these knowledge for other purposes and one of the aspects that Marco Daffy used was was using these hermetic practices of purification to come up with numbers for for lotteries and so forth and apparently he was quite
Successful and kremets was as well the latter part of his life he lived in Monaco where he basically lived off the fortunes of his winnings from the the the various games of chance that were played at the at the casinos of Monaco okay oh that’s a good use of
But again he didn’t he actually wrote a book on it under a pseudonym that anyways so but it wasn’t it wasn’t something he wanted to promote because people would focus on that and they wouldn’t focus on right on you know and and people would develop themselves as
These Miracle makers and right and then the you know the whole ethos behind what the Miriam is this level of Purity would be lost it would be contaminated and so that the focus was on on Therapeutics because it did help both the recipient and the practitioner because it it it
Put a constraint on the on the growth on the inflation of the ego or the practitioner if they were focused that their energy to necessitate to to transfer energy to help the individual not to give up it it led to a more it led to opening up to overcoming their
Selfish constraints to to much more philanthropic and much more humanistic values and then what they put they would otherwise normally would would be focusing on It seems as if there is a collective aspect to all of this that it’s not just about individual healing but it’s about Collective healing as well and also I noted there seems to be something karmic at play as well in terms of and I think in excuse me if I’m incorrect I think
This is something that you were writing about in one of the essays where it was noted about wars for example and the amount of pain and misery that’s generated and mores that that ends up getting manifested in various illnesses and you know the note well you know what would
We have to say after the second world war because Premier died before the second world war and am I on the right track with that no you are definitely so the the the the concept behind the quantity not only the quality of energy we talked about the quality energy is
That individuals practitioners of the Miriam initiates they do various daily rituals and fast things to be able to purify themselves so they’re no longer centered on this humanum humanoid being that they go inside and discover this core of being that’s not contaminated by the mundane world that’s the quality of
It and every every individual has a potential to reach to realize their Miriam is that level of Purity that gives birth to the Christ that gives birth to the god God but there’s also a quantitative aspect the quantitative aspect is that this energy that once each these individual
Members are able to tap into it can be harness it could be focalized just like a a laser then the power of collective energy is that much greater than individual so and and that’s where and so Kramer’s referred to a contemporary school that was based in the States called Christian
Science I followed a similar type of modality to help and they had quite success with that as well I think there are even still schools around now Christian Science and so forth so it was based on that premise that if we’re of if energy came energy is one it can be
Tapped into if we can if it can be collected from a group of practitioners and then focused on the on the on The Afflicted individual the benefits to the individual will be that much greater than if it would be individual and then from one individual practitioner and and
Krameritz would would put that into practice into trials when he’d go to his various academies he would have individuals come forth and have them in a very simple exercise to prove the theorem is to hold their hand up in the air like you know at 45 degrees and see
How long individually they could do it maybe most people do it three three four minutes and then they would you know weight a spell and then they’d do the same practice but this time they would have members like higher degree members to do the ritual to concentrate that energy
And have the individual hold out their hand and they could hold it out the hand for like 20 minutes five six seven eight times as as as potent as when they did it by the energy by themselves so this was to prove and this was talked about earlier about the the Pythagorean
Component of of validating each of these theorems and not just taking it because of what the hierophant or what the the the the the the Magus says this is what this is how it’s supposed to work is it has to be experienced and proved before it’s put into practice
So that that’s the the basis behind that theory and then you talked about if I recall correctly the second part about permits talks about are actually an anecdotal situation where kramus was talking about I think in general about Collective energies and not only individual energies that have disturbances but Collective energies and
He talked about his his experience in the first world war the amount of suffering that was unprecedented that it led to the lot of the convulsions of the 20s and 30s uh example obviously is the Bolshevik Revolution and Nazism and fascism coming to four and Daffy writes
About imagine if he what he would say if he experienced a second world war with the atomic bomb is that the imbalance from the amount of collective suffering is felt collectively it may go latent for decades but it’ll it’ll rise up because the this whole cosmic energy the
Whole structure of balance has been upset and it’s almost like a a a a cloud I mean here in Northeast part of North America where we’re we’re under these forest fires where these clouds are coming over invading cities have seen New York it’s like it’s it’s London or
Something it’s there’s like fog it’s a similar type of thing with suffering with with this release of pain pain is is a disequilibrium it’s an imbalance and that in the psychic World spreads like like Vapor spread in in our skies and it settles down when it settles down and it
Takes root it has an effect on the collective psyche and the Collective Soul yeah so that’s my understanding of that concept that uh Kramer was trying to expound in one of his conversations I think with Marco Daffy and so okay yeah I I just found it very interesting because one of the things
That I’m constantly thinking about and uh proponent promoting is that we have to have individual healing and Collective healing kind of simultaneously you know because yeah I mean cremace is way ahead of his time in some of these things about having like these hermetic clinics available in
Throughout cities and you know now we talk about Psychotherapy and self-healing and our program but we’re talking about 1890s right and you know Collective healing and you know young and and Freud hadn’t even come up with the topics of like the subconscious and the unconscious hadn’t even been fully
Articulated by then so he was way ahead of his time the the work that they did in the schools and the various academies was far far ahead of its time in terms of understanding the connections between the various levels of being and that required various levels of of healings
Or therapies to to to to arrive at that balance yeah and while it still seems rather ahead of his time in terms of the mind-body relationship and the connection between that and healing and illness and what’s the last part you said uh and and illness oh an illness yes oh yeah I
Mean uh we’re just it’s only been in the last few decades that you know that whole body mind healing component is starting to catch to you know before it was considered you know a hippie domain or a fringe Theory or it’s you know but now it’s just starting to make so much
Of our ill physical illnesses or cause of stress and stress has caused most part by by psychological issues a good part in mental healing and mental unbalances and such is so widespread these days that we better start focusing on everywhere else you know Society is just going to go further down into into
Chaos because there’s a lack of stability lack of equilibrium as a starting point for for individuals so civilization is being broken down because individuals can’t cope with the stress of modern society right right we need now did the the the the the was it the fraternity or the
Brotherhood of Miriam I I think both those terms were used right yeah those are synonymous okay how long let me ask you that I know we’re starting to run out of time how long were they in operation so the the Miriam was founder in the mid-1890s the under cremer it’s premise
Died in the 1930s 1930 when he died there was a Schism there was a number of different heads of he had various circles called academies throughout Italy and then some you know as is inevitable in in in initiatic type of circles a reserved type of organizations there was a number
Of Pretenders who claimed they were the Miriam so it went sort of underground also fascism in Italy at that time looked down on any type of secret societies they felt it was a branch of Mason Freemasonry which were internationalists and all that type of thing so I went underground for a few
Decades it surfaced after the war but again there was a lot of schisms in terms of various Pretenders there there wasn’t a unifying structure to the Miriam and one of the last tenants that Kramer’s said before he died is that you know when he passes that he the one wish
That he he has for all miriamites for all members of the Miriam is that they stay United in that they don’t fragment into various sects well unfortunately that’s exactly what happens and into the to this day there is a number of different sects who use the name Miriam
With the I or with the Y some call themselves a grammaritzian Academy some have other type of names that that suggest that they’re following kremit’s teachings but you know for the most part there isn’t one body that can call itself a true practice true inheritors of of Kramer’s practice and even under
Premise time is very much under Evolution it wasn’t like a very static circle of practitioners they’re very much into experimentation and again because of that Pythagorean component is to validate their their theorems based on on the success or not of of putting it into practice and into real real
Existential terms okay and you mentioned that like Evola I think was favorable to the teachings of cram arts and I thought it was really interesting and important to note that crimeworks did not like fascism and I know that Ebola I once read that he tried to out fascist the
Fascists yeah uh I mean they’re two different two different Natures all together if you read Avila’s book he’s his nature is very much a Keisha Tria of a warrior type of ethic whereas crime rates is more of a hermeticist right right so they’re coming from two different angles but they’re they’re
Obviously was mutual respect because one of the leading members of Kremer school who won Under the pseudonym Abraxas wrote in CR in Avila’s your group the volumes I wrote a number of Articles probably after Evelyn Sam had the most contribution so there was a mutual respect but they’re they’re the folk
Focus was on two different aspects of of being one was on evela focuses on on self-transcendence very much a practice of on the Warrior on the on on self-initiation we talked about the absolute individual whereas crime rates was much more on the traditional hermeticism is that you
Follow the Isaac Isis Osiris Oris type of of evolution or development but there were mutual respect and and I think even Avila even applied to one of the Miriam circles in Rome in the 1920s but I mean there was again there there are two different you know they’re two different stars in
The universe put it that way yeah well the reason I mentioned it was because I I know that the works of Evola are still on publication and like I said at the very beginning I was familiar with his name but not kremmerts and I was just
Curious if you think that now that you know with your book and some of the other writings that are becoming a little bit more available if do you think that creme Rich will become more influential would think so because I didn’t think he he’s he’s scratched down an A near
Shullivan song again most of the western based esoteric schools are following the Kabbalah with a K very the Jewish and and kremaritz is the it’s fallen on the on the Egyptian Greco don’t we talked about the four harmonic bodies talked about pythagorism we’re talking about the Renaissance writers in schools so
Those who are interested in in that lineage or that that wisdom Branch would find would feel at home with cremaritz and plus those who are interested in in applying these energetic techniques for themselves for their family members we’ll see a practical outlet for it other than just you know for selfish
Reasons or for you know reasons of just of curiosity and so forth so I think both at a theoretical and a practical aspect that the CR the Miriam the kremerit school of of a visitorism would have a very strong connection with with getting greater popularity and awareness
In North America and in the Western World in general yeah well it seems like it would be very sympathetic to a lot of the ideas that are quite popular now so yeah I would love to see that so I I know that we’re out of time so let me
Ask you two final very quick questions one is what’s coming up next for you what are you working on now okay great thanks for answer asking that Nick I’ve got a couple of books and a couple they’re in manufact and in manuscript format at this point that’ll be one’s
Going to be published hopefully next year with inner Traditions it’s called the the siren or that’s a working title and it’s Explorations and now chemical hermeticism that it’s compilation I’ll have number of works by Daffy by myself as well and and explore some of the the some of the more I guess esoteric
Components of hermeticism things that we talked about here in terms of the Hermetic bodies in terms of Eros as as the as medium for for the application of of some of these are called energies of a self-development and Transcendence looking at reincarnation and avataric components of the of self-development so
That working with the summer and hopefully you’ll see publication next year another book that a manuscript I’m working on it’s a provisional title hermetic Book of the Dead which will focus on some of the aspects of elixirs to life death and rebirth and healing so something that to look forward in the
Future as well a number of other currents of of thought that I’m looking to develop in the future but have them sort of put pen to paper yet on but they’re still in this lineage that we’re talking about now that looks from this sort of Egyptian Greco-Roman a
Renaissance type of hermeticism in it application in in today’s world sounds fascinating I’ll look forward to reading them and I know that there were a few of the themes that you just mentioned are in the current book that we didn’t get to so I look forward to digging in
Deeper excellent published so the final question is where can people go to to find out more about you or to find you online you can you can write to my the publisher inter Traditions or contact me on social media I do seminars I do talks as well if you
Have an interest in in having a talk on Cramer it’s on this tradition as well or any aspects of the areas that I focus in in terms of the spiritual and mystical traditions of the East and the west then send me a note either on Facebook or messenger Instagram just want to reach
Out to me and be friends as well that’s coolest too I like to be accessible very much to open to learning to exchanging ideas with everyone getting to know the audience understanding what you like or or if you need further clarifications and aspects that you would you want to
You’d like me to explore further and in in explaining the significance then by all means reach out to me and be glad to start a conversation wonderful wonderful well David thank you so much for your time I enjoyed the book and I really appreciate you exposing me and the world
To cremerits and grimmerts and this tradition that you know I didn’t know too much about I know some of the you know the other historical aspects you know Bruno and all that yeah but kermits was new to me so I I’m very grateful for you doing this work
Great thanks a lot for inviting me Nick this was a great conversation enjoyed it wonderful thank you and that’s a wrap on episode 94 of verbal Spirit radio thank you so much for listening or watching if you are part of my YouTube audience or review this on Spotify
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I’m Nick Mather and you’ve been listening to or watching Rebel Spirit radio until next time maybe in peace may you flourish in all possible ways and may you continue to nurture your Rebel spirit
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