Today on Uncommon Sense join us as we interview Colin kanetsky a part-time iconographer from Madison Wisconsin stay tuned to learn more [Applause] Hello and welcome to Uncommon Sense the official podcast of the Society of Gilbert Keith Chesterton I’m Gretel and your co-host and I’m joined by Joe Grabowski my my wonderful co-host hi Joe hi gretelin and like I said we’re joined here by Colin who is an iconographer and who
Recently was a vendor at our annual Chesterton conference hi there Colin great to have you on good morning thanks for having me uh why don’t you just take a minute Colin and let our listeners know a little bit about what you do who you are and what it’s like to to do iconography
Yeah definitely so there’s a bunch of different ways to answer that question I’ll try a couple couple out for size um so first of all uh in your intro you mentioned that I do this part-time um that is true so even for today’s recording I’m taking a break from uh
Calls with clients about web development and software consulting which is what I do most of the week but the the part-time work that I get to do as an iconographer is sort of uh it’s firstly I’d say a fruit of a lay Catholic community that I’m a part of
That Community is called the Brotherhood of Saint Joseph and it owns a few different business ventures that all of the men who are part of the community work in very Loosely speaking we’re we’re seeking to unite our work and prayer and ongoing formation together so in the context of that Community I get
To have the opportunity to be an iconographer one day a week currently which is a huge blessing because the only thing I’ve ever wanted to be is an artist so I am a software consultant now somewhat by necessity um but out of the sort of the Overflow
Of this broader community life I get to spend a day a week making art for the church which is a huge blessing um and more specifically how I stumbled on it was sort of through through another facet of that community so the the last hour of our work day we
Actually spend in some kind of ongoing formation together which takes a bunch of different forms sometimes that’s just exercising um we’re reading a book about church history right now we’ve been doing a lot of wood carving recently we actually the last year put on a small production
Of GK chesterton’s magic his uh his stage play which was a joy and our families loved it but one of the one of the formation activities we did last year was sort of a a self-directed creative project so each member of the community needed to basically make a
Pitch to the rest of us about a creative project that they thought was worth spending time working on and we spent a few days a week for um I think three months or so and I chose to dabble in iconography for the first time at that point
Um and I made a very sloppy and kind of scary image of Our Lord to begin with but even through that uh kind of rough start I experienced a lot of Grace from the the process of being able to to make an image of Our Lord even an imperfect
One and from there have gradually increased my time that I’m setting aside each week to to keep learning and growing in the tradition so that’s a little bit of an introduction I didn’t quite touch on process which I certainly could do as well oh that’s that’s wonderful I think
That’s a no pun intended or a great illustration of uh chesterton’s quote if it’s worth doing it’s worth doing badly because he doesn’t yeah just do things badly he means try it and it’s gonna be bad probably the first time yeah my wife was a very gracious uh
Recipient of that first icon as a Christmas gift um she made me feel great about it and luckily I’ve received more instructions since then and have started to improve but uh I will mention that um Colin did a beautiful uh icon for the conference you want to mention that Joe
And describe that a little bit yeah we were very grateful to have uh kind of present in our staging area for the conference this year um particularly right uh during during mass right in front of the altar a beautiful icon of Saint Francis of Assisi that
That uh Colin did which fit with our um conference theme this year very well and I know that it was uh quite an enrichment to um to the sort of sanctuary space during the liturgies of the conference but then what served also as our stage space during during the presentations and
Talks of the conference um and I’d be Keen to ask you Colin um first of all in terms of your background art are you a uh Latin right Catholic or or are you of a member of one of the Eastern rights yeah great question two most common questions that I was
Asked while I was at the conference was one if I had made the things that were at my booth the answers yes um and secondly if I was Orthodox which is uh a valid question because it’s definitely the association that that most folks have with iconography today
Um but I am not Orthodox I am Roman Catholic and happily so let’s say um I have a number of friends in the Orthodox church and um love it there’s a great richness in their tradition but um absolutely I’m praying for the the reunification of of our divided churches right now but
Um to answer the question more directly no I I’m Roman and the the tradition of iconography uh goes way earlier than the Divide between East and West so I was able to talk to a number of folks at the conference about this which um is sort of a sad reality to me that
Not many people know about this tradition but essentially to to give The Abridged version up until roughly the 13th to 14th century all of the visual art that was created in unified Christendom looked like iconography and in some the earlier you go um the the form it takes might be a
Little more uh say prototypical you know if you see some of the first um drawings in the catacombs in Rome for example they don’t look exactly like iconography as we understand it today but it it definitely is the the seed that has flourished into the the visual tradition that we have now
And it wasn’t until around the 13th or 14th century that the West quote-unquote started to develop in some new artistic directions um yeah one one little text if I may make a quick comment um that I think sheds great light on this is uh Pope Benedict’s the spirit of
The Liturgy he has a chapter in that work um the place of images in the church and the thing that he emphasizes there is that the the movement in the West after the 13th century is a valid and a good one but it’s one that seemed to sort of be let’s say primarily
Interested in the the historicity of uh of the Christian tradition and in depicting scenes from the Christian tradition in a way that viewers could sort of engage with on um let’s say on a more practical level something like that which is a valid move because a scene of the crucifixion
In the Renaissance style can impact our hearts in a way that an icon might not be able to but something that’s potentially lost in that move is the the mysticism and the symbolism that was unified in the the East and West in its visual production up until that sort of
Divide so the short answer to that is that this is very much a shared tradition my teacher is orthodox and this is something that he emphasizes very often that iconography is not his it’s it’s a gift and a patrimony of the whole church which is really beautiful to be
Able to engage with because it’s a a truly ecumenical act to be a Roman Catholic who’s trying to work as an iconographer now um there’s a real strong old bridge between the East and West in this particular uh Avenue let’s say yeah I I know from my own experience I I I’m
A devotee or or admirer of icons I don’t use them kind of uh liturgically uh in in sort of the Eastern traditional way however I do have them in my house sort of like little prayer space setting up sort of the um uh area there but they’re they’re not
Hung on my wall in the manner of art I have art on other walls but where the icons are are kind of set aside for the icon and I forget where I came across this distinction or or read it um but it always struck me as sort of
Apt for my understanding of the theology is that sort of that when you’re approaching art or a painting um you sort of integrate the experience of that thing as subject you kind of call it into yourself and make meaning of it in a way but the
The sort of Beauty and the challenge of iconography in its great tradition is that it it stands apart as other you’re you’re sort of relating to not only the icon but also the subject of that icon um in a very in a much more sort of interpersonal way and and it’s always
Been touching to me to see in liturgy I I’ve had the blessing of seeing some pretty uh you know with typical prototypical uh uh Eastern liturgies like I actually spent some time on Mount Athos the great uh Monastery island of of the Orthodox church and um when you see the the
Place and and the role of icons in liturgy and even just in the act of entering a church um I think that yeah it’s it’s much different and I think that to the to the Western mind it just requires a little bit of catechesis and shaping and
Formation to realize that it’s not quite the same as that holiday shot that you have hanging above your mantle and inside your home when you walk in you don’t necessarily relate to it but that but the icon is always there again as as other as a representation almost as a as another
Person kind of that you’re called to relate to so it’s uh it really is a beautiful tradition and I’m I’m grateful to hear uh that uh you have that welcome reception from your teacher and uh that uh I’m I’ve also been encouraged to see that it does seem to be picking up
Um amongst uh you know Latin right Catholics in in terms of practice and devotion yeah yeah so Joe to your point about the sort of the presence of icons I think Benedict has something really beautiful to say about this um and he he doesn’t actually apply this exclusively or specifically to icons but
I think it would be okay to say that um it’s probably especially true of them in comparison to um some more contemporary Western forms of of art so here’s what he says the image of Christ and the Saints are not photographs their whole point is to lead
Us beyond what can be apprehended at merely the material Level to awaken new senses in us and to teach us a new kind of seeing which perceives the invisible indivisible so I think that is uh an extremely important interpretive key for approaching an icon because they look strange to our our modern
Sensibilities in many ways but at their heart is this reality that they they are not striving to be photographs they’re striving to be Windows into the Divide they ought to stir in us the same kind of the same kind of reactions that a beautiful liturgy has where there’s there’s a
Surface level that we can we can touch and we can see and we can kind of understand but if we approach it in an atmosphere of prayer the thing that we should be sort of astonished by in the Liturgy is how much we don’t understand you know how How Deep The Experience
Actually goes and I think something similar can be applied to iconography because it’s not a photograph a photograph f is it’s static it’s something that you can you can pick it up and here it is and it’s easy to to understand where sort of the experiential boundaries are let’s say
Um but an icon doesn’t want to do that doesn’t want to limit the Divine to um you know a one-to-one representation wants to strive to do the same kinds of things that the Liturgy does obviously in a different way but I think that’s a really important key to understanding the whole thing
It uh it reminds me a lot um so I would say that I’m a part-time professional singer reminds me of Gregorian chant in many ways uh it’s this sort of mysterious and very other sounding thing that uh it sounds very Eastern if you’ve heard it sung in certain ways too like
There’s certainly a sort of a wailing quality um but it has it has a similar and in some and I think in many ways a unified uh theme of trying to lift you to God through otherness which is kind of kind of something that we don’t think
About too often in the west I don’t think yeah very cool I think we ought to more it strikes me as very commensurate too with sort of chesterton’s artistic sensibilities and vision right because Chesterton in whether it be his writing or his own uh you know Textile Art that he he didn’t
Overvalue various similitude as the thing right it was um there’s that great essay is that in a piece of chalk where he uh talks about um seeing the cow up on the hills and he said you know I wanted to draw the cow but not just to draw the cow I was going
To draw the soul of the cow and the soul of the cow was royal purple and had seven heads with seven horns and he he goes through this interesting and you know there’s something Whimsical and playful about that but but the you know the the Richer you know that
There’s there’s this other kind of tradition or other than the modern sensibility of a kind of very similitude or relatability and that’s something that kind of invites Us in invites us to be meaning makers with the thing and engage the thing in a way that that becomes you know it has this whole
Narrative that presents to us but it’s not um it’s not that static that a photograph you know is yeah well um on on that topic you know uh I think as we speak there will be some who are very much kind of vibing with what we’re
Saying but I think in general in our world today um people are people are very used to let’s say um photographic representation whether it be in the movies um or whatever it happens to be what would you say to kind of the importance of regaining an artistic sensibility and
Uh appreciation for art maybe in some of these more traditional forms and and how we teach those to our especially to young people yeah absolutely yeah okay so a few few thoughts there um so first of all I think there’s there’s an idea that Benedict touches on here which is also
Um in that last quotation I read which is also expanded on by Joseph Bieber um in his work only the lover saying this he has an essay on uh learning to see again and what he’s presenting there which I think is incredibly insightful he has these great anecdotes strewn throughout
He’s taking a ship I think back to back to Europe as he’s writing the essay and he says that one evening everyone at the dinner table said that there was nothing to see the previous evening and he spent the whole previous evening watching hundreds of jellyfish floating to the surface and watching the
These luminous mysterious shapes and his whole point in that essay is that there’s there’s such of such a large volume of visual noise that we tend to live in that the average person’s ability to truly see is in Rapid Decline and I think he’s really on
To something there and I think it has a connection with where you started Joe and asking about um in a certain sense like retraining our sensibilities if we’re you know if we’re used to photo representation how do we approach a different kind of art
Um I think it has a lot to do with regaining that kind of sight that Benedict and people are talking about um and I think there’s there’s a few different reasons for doing that one I think the most important is that there’s a a very close connection between art and prayer
And specifically through the creation of Art and prayer so this is something I talked with my wife a lot about um I always use the example of a a leaf right if someone set out with a goal of trying to draw a leaf for the first time
What they would need to do if they were to do it effectively and let’s just say that their goal actually was to represent the leaf accurately right a pencil photo representation we’ll say even if you started out with that goal so not worrying about deeper realities or symbolism like iconography does
Something like that even if you just wanted to draw a leaf effectively the kinds of things that would need to be trained in you is a certain attentiveness to creation into the world as it actually is which I think is very close to prayer it’s not exactly prayer but if you
Really look at a leaf what you see is order and you see intentionality in how it fits with a branch and with the tree and with its roots and you see incredible gradations in color and Shadow and form even just in the the edges of a simple leaf and all of that
Naturally I think draws us into a sense of wonder and a sense of wonder is only like one step shy of entering into prayer all you really need to do is take that take that inspiration of Wonder and turn your gaze upward and that’s prayer so
Um that’s maybe the first thing I would say in the the potential value in engaging in art in general um and then maybe to your your point about sort of retraining our sensibilities um I think that might be somewhat akin to um to trying to pray with scripture if what
You’re used to is reading commentaries on scripture something like that so what is it like to try to appreciate an icon um or a painting in general but I think iconography especially highlights this it’s a movement from what we can easily understand and what is clear into the
Mystery of God so that move is a leap it takes uh it takes a certain degree of trust as a viewer and as as a child of God to to just enter into scripture purely to not have uh supports let’s say and I’m you know I’m I’m a Roman Catholic I’m
All for good interpretive AIDS but my point there is that there is a fundamentally different experience in picking up scripture and praying with it as it is and allowing the Holy Spirit to move in that versus reading a really well-developed commentary on that passage so I think something similar is
Probably true in the process of viewing and engaging in art um if you want to move past the level of photograph or past the level of commentary let’s say there’s this jump that you need to make sort of into a a void for most people if they aren’t used to doing this um
But I think it’s well worth it even if it’s a little scary at first it takes some intellectual discipline to um you know a lot of Western Art speaks to us on the mostly on the level of feelings which is good and useful um but I think some of the Best Western
Art is just very very rich with uh with symbolism as well at this point in our recording we had a bit of technical difficulty and the uh stream crashed on us and so filling in what you missed here was gretelin asking a question of Colin if he could describe
A bit more the actual process of creating icons and that’s where we will return to the conversation yeah yeah I would love to um I brought in an example that I’m working on currently at competitive used to explain so this is a partially completed icon of the Annunciation so the
The first thing I’ll say is that an icon off to be created in prayer this is how Benedict phrases it and icon is made in the N4 prayer um I will be totally honest that as a recent adoptee let’s say of the iconographic tradition actively praying through the process can be challenging
Um but I’m trying to work on that for sure um but practically speaking the the process is a pretty interesting one so there’s some some big differences between the painting techniques in an icon versus most Western Art probably most notably the the use of gold gold foil in the backgrounds is always a
Hallmark of an icon and it has a strong connection with uh with being a window into the the Heavenly realm it’s the idea so anytime in an icon that you see gold the trigger that that’s supposed to flip in our minds is one of heaven so when we see gold we see heaven
And there’s a a process from that point so first you you start with a wooden panel you trace the outlines of your image onto that panel then you apply the gold then you apply the paint in that order and an icon is it’s compressed so it doesn’t have the same kind of
Dimensionality that we’re used to in Western Art and that’s partially uh portrayed through the way that layers of paint are added so there’s this process of starting from um a mid-tone uh so you start with a let’s say you’re painting some blue fabric you start with
A mid-tone of your blue and then you work up in distinct layers to the highlights so you don’t actually blend the colors between layers which is much different than than Western Art um and it gives a much different final visual impression let’s say and you do that throughout the image and
Eventually there’s some lettering that’s typically added and some final details and then a top coat that gives this very beautiful kind of shine to the icon which is hard to describe but very distinct if you see it in person there’s a yeah a very unique sense that’s given by
That combination of gold and this kind of shiny top coat it really listens in the room especially if there’s a candle or a light near it so that’s roughly speaking the process of actually making an icon yeah I’m I’m struck by um so many things in that um and and even
What you were saying previously again I’m the the it is a Chesterton uh uh Society podcast and I I would be remiss not to just say like so many thoughts from Chesterton occur one one being that that linking of Wonder and praise that that Wonder for Chesterton really was the root of
All of all you know Wonder leads to gratitude and gratitude leads to praise that was kind of his basic if you will that was his spiritual road map but but then when you’re speaking about the layering of colors that’s always been one of the things that most mesmerizes me
In looking at a very beautifully drawn uh icon is that the the lines are sharp they’re they’re well defined it’s not sort of you know it’s certainly not impressionistic there’s none of this kind of blending uh hiroscuro sort of um approach that you see in some Western
Schools of art that rather what you have is these again clearly delineated contrasts in colors and you see colors as it were more richly precisely through that contrast which just again reminds me of of Chesterton and the way the applicability of that out into the Christian Life that uh it
Is similar as with virtues that you see you know in the richness of the church that the virtues the life of virtue in a man he he brings this up in Orthodoxy is not a blending together of all these various colors such that you’re just left with kind of
A muddy Brown in definiteness but rather you have humility that is Flaming alongside charity that is just bro or Chastity that is brilliant white you know um those sorts of clearly delineated lines I think there’s something very lovely about that that imagery yeah and I so just yesterday I actually
Had the chance to help my teacher put a new painting into a Greek Orthodox Church in Madison here which was an amazing experience and that um that church is nearly covered floor to ceiling throughout the whole space with icons and just the the the presence of those colors is
Merely overwhelming especially when in the American Church we’re so used to many of our parishes having bare Walls by this point it’s an amazing experience to enter into a space that um is nearly oppressive with color but in the you know best way it’s possible and there’s something really beautiful
About the the purity of those colors they aren’t Blended they’re they’re very distinct and gorgeous when you’re in person with them and the the colors all mean something right so that’s something that’s very chestertonian too is um yeah you know I think of Napoleon of Notting Hill and the symbolism of colors
And sort of heraldry but in iconography right they they actually like symbolize different things yeah I think the the best example of that and honestly the most useful one for any of your listeners to know is um how Jesus and Mary are depicted in iconography and this is generally true
In Western Art as well but Western area is borrowing this detail from the iconographic tradition so they kind of came first on this one but um Jesus is always depicted with either like a red or a pinkish undergarment normally there’s some gold mixed in with it with a blue garment on the top
And the the symbolism there is of the inner garment being his divinity and the blue outer garment being the human nature that he took on and in Mary’s case that order is reversed so the two colors are flip-flopped because she started with her humanity and was sort of cloaked in
This Divinity which is of course of a a different kind than Christ’s but um she took on this very special role and it’s consistent across you know 20 centuries of iconography this is how you’ll see Jesus and Mary depicted so yes in at least some cases there are definitely
Strong meanings to the the use of specific colors as well that’s awesome um just uh just to just I don’t know it’s great to talk about the icons but I would would hate to miss the opportunity to talk a little bit about your um the Brotherhood of Saint Joseph
Would you uh would you share with us a little bit about this this organization and how it’s sort of helped you in this endeavor yeah absolutely so we are we are quite young um today actually is our second anniversary of our founding so this is a perfect day to have a conversation on
Um currently there are there are members in three different locations so in the Madison area around Milwaukee Wisconsin and around the Twin Cities and um the the community really came out of a desire to be able to unite all these fractured parts of our Lives is kind of
How I think about it so in a typical uh let’s say typical working American father working American Catholic father let’s say there’s all these different fractal components of his life most of the time um if he is able to sustain a prayer life it’s probably happening in
Isolation either at home or if he has the opportunity to get into a church once in a while great but probably it’s happening at home or on his commute something like that many has the fractal of his work life and the fractal of his faith community and if there’s anything left over maybe
Has a little bit of time for a hobby Maybe if most ads don’t so um we sort of saw this disjointed nature of most fathers lives and felt an inspiration to try to do something about it so the organization that we’re building owns a couple different businesses currently and the hope is to
Expand into other Industries over time so right now we have a software consulting company and a residential home construction company which are two very different kinds of work but reason being that we want to be able to cast a wide net essentially to to bring men of different backgrounds and interests into
The community but all of those different fractals are kind of united in the way that we live community life so in all of our offices we start our day in a holy hour in a chapel that we have in our office which isn’t the most beautiful
Chapel in the world because it is in office but um but it has an icon in it and it has some uh nice blue painted walls and Sumerian stars and things so we’ve we’ve done what we can with it but we hope to improve that over time so start with a
Holy hour together and then work really hard for seven hours which is less than most people have to and on the last hour of our day we get to spend in some kind of ongoing formation together like I mentioned before um So currently one of the things we’re doing is
Um practicing how to read stories to our children well so we’re practicing character voices and pacing and things like that another office has been doing Jiu Jitsu so two radically different kinds of formation but all within the the scope of the kinds of things that we can see
Improving us as men and fathers and disciples so that Community is growing and uh yes it’s been a huge blessing for me in particular it’s opened the door to everything that we’ve talked about before this and in many other ways I think I’m informing a network of relationships here that I expect to
Exist the next 40 years which is a huge blessing that’s wonderful is it um it’s not like consecrated right it’s it’s a lay apostolate or what what which how do you define it yeah good question it is a lay apostolate there are no vows involved there’s sort of
Commitments that we make to each other is the the kind of language that we use but everyone is free to come and go and say please um yeah we have the uh the support of our priests and Bishop but not in a um an official kind of organized sense
Um so in that regard it is uh that’s personally because we’re young and partially because it is a fairly unique kind of thing that we’re doing I’m not sure that it necessarily translates to the um the typical designations let’s say for different kinds of communities that
I’ve heard of in the church but so far the Lord has been blessing it and we’re excited to see where it goes it’s yeah it’s quite a beautiful model and I think you’re right in pointing out that it you know it’s not quite a model um that one can think of
Current metaphors or analogies too but it does strike me sort of as reminisce and Chesterton would appreciate this of reminiscent of the medieval Guilds of yeah you know communities of men and and work workmen in different trades who nonetheless would associate for you know those common purposes um so it’s it’s quite a
Quite an exciting thing we will make sure for our listeners to have a uh have a link in the show notes so that people can kind of go and take a look at the website I’ve seen and learn a little bit more about it at least to
Be able to pray uh for for fruitfulness and all you’re doing there great thank you yeah um so I think as as we’re almost about to wrap up uh you know I would say uh one of the things from our prior uh conversations before the before the show
Uh I I can’t move away from without let or move on from this conversation without asking you about because you say um you mentioned iconography as a means of engaging the the weirdness of God and that was a uh that was a thing that struck me
Um yeah why why don’t you expand on that idea iconography as a way of engaging with the weirdness of God yeah I would love to um so this is something that’s been on my mind a lot the last year or so and I think it has some connections with what we’re discussing
About our let’s say Western acclimation with photographic representation that’s sort of the realm that we’re comfortable in and generally speaking the the mystical isn’t a space that most American Catholics at least let’s say are um are very comfortable the thing that’s been striking me in my personal uh prayer life over the last
Year is kind of how how untenable that is when you really look at scripture because when you really look at it closely there is there’s a strangeness to the way that God acts in Scripture that doesn’t fit cleanly within our nice tidy intellectual uh Western mindset so a few
Examples of this that have been a big part of my spiritual life over the last year um The Book of Tobit and the Book of Revelation two places where I honestly think they’re some of the most beautiful parts of scripture they are also by far some of
The strangest ones so as an example in Tobit you have this extended story of uh tobiah tobit’s son being sent on a journey to uh fetch money for his father who’s uh unfortunately blind because of bird droppings in his eyes along the way a giant fish tries to eat him uh and the
Archangel who’s accompanying him instructs him to take out the gallbladder of the fish and save it for some reason that you don’t melt eventually you find out that it’s to Aid in The Exorcism of his new wife who has been oppressed by a demon and who’s I believe six previous husbands were all
Killed on their wedding night which is the nice uh beautiful reading that a lot of young Catholics choose for their wedding mass is the prayer of Tobit and her tobaya and his new wife I’m not sure how many people know about what’s surrounding it
Um but in that story what you see is an intimate and um sort of constant intervention of God in the created world and in the lives of the individuals who that story uh follows and you see his presence in Creation in a really deep and strange sort of way that material stuff matters
Is what that story tells you and that the material world isn’t neutral like there’s it’s charged with the specificity and the intentionality of God so the gallbladder of a fish in this case isn’t just the gallbladder of a fish it’s the means by which God wants to deliver one of his children from
Oppression and that’s such a sacramental vision of the world and it’s not foreign it shouldn’t be foreign to um to our Western sensibilities to have at least an openness to that kind of presence in the created world and it’s also not a story where God has set
Creation in motion and stepped away and where we’re just living our individual lives what you see in the Book of Tobit is that God is guiding the entire process and the entire show and I think that’s that’s also maybe something that I personally and I think many other people have struggled to
Um to see because it’s easy to think that we kind of have Christianity figured out and that we have our our practices you know we have our sacraments we do our things but um it’s easy to sort of fall into a sense that we’re kind of floating
Through life on our own and that’s not what you see in scripture at all if you look closely at it so that’s kind of what I mean by the the weirdness of God um in the weirdness of scripture and there are many icons in the uh the iconographic tradition that visualize
That kind of strangeness so you can find depictions of John the Baptist with wings for example John the Baptist doesn’t have wings when they say but where that communicates is the uh the speed at which John the Baptist can intercede for us as the Forerunner as this uh special Saint among the saints
Who is so highly extolled by our Lord in the scriptures so there’s a there’s a strangeness there but there’s also a deep truth that this uh that this man served the Lord in such a way that he can Aid us with with rapidity now is the
Idea and there are so many examples of that kind of visualization of the same kind of strangeness that you see in scripture and I think it’s incredibly helpful to have the combination of the written word of God and the visual tradition to drive home the fact that we
Don’t understand the world as much as we think we do and that God is very present in it in odd sort of ways yeah well it it’s uh yeah just thinking of Christ using his spittle in the mud to heal his own blind man which is kind
Of you know in the same register as the gallbladder of a fish it’s very very visceral and earthy and yet that is Um you know I think it means that in those most uh sometimes visceral and earthy Parts even of our own lives that’s where Christ that’s what the Incarnation means that’s where he’s going to encounter us that we need to take all of that all of our myths all of our very very human
Selves to to God to be transformed so um lovely insights well I think we’re we’ve uh we’ve gone quite a bit here and it’s been such a such a wonderful conversation I think I I know that our listeners will have learned a lot from this and hopefully um
Be able to check out online what uh the Brotherhood of Saint Joseph is doing and uh I don’t think you you have a sight yet for your iconography or anything yet but I do oh you do great well we’ll make sure to put that in the show Notes too
But Catholic icons.com oh well that’s easy easy to remember but we’ll put that in the show notes and people can check that out as well um uh but any last uh words of wisdom or thoughts for our audience before we uh wrap up here yeah
Um well if I may be so bold as to make a a recommendation um one take time to pray with scripture today uh just just scripture just see what the Lord does with that and two uh try to sketch something today pick a leaf pick a chair whatever’s around you I think if
Uh if everyone did that today the Lord would be able to work some wonders through even those simple things that’s beautiful well thank you uh and uh thanks uh to uh gretelin uh as always for for co-hosting um I think we’re having a couple of technical difficulties with critical and
Feed right now but she has been as part of the conversation um and just uh such a grateful uh wonderful conversation it has I know that I’m very grateful for it and I will uh you know I’m I’m not much of a Sketcher but I will try to uh draw something
Today if I can I think that’s a good practice for all of us as we were reminded earlier Thing Worth doing is worth doing badly so uh just thanks once again Colin it’s been a pleasure thank you so much for having me and uh thanks to all of you for tuning in
Whether you’re on uh uh any of the podcast apps or whether you’re watching this on YouTube for those of you who are only listening I do encourage you to check out the YouTube stream of this because there’s some imagery and things that you’ll want to see
Um in in the video version of this podcast and you should be sure to subscribe there on YouTube so that you’ll know hit the Bell to get notifications whenever we’ll release a new uh video content up to the feed or perhaps go live which we we hope to be
Doing sometimes in the future uh and please do leave a comment uh like the video that tells YouTube that this is something that people like you might like and it will serve that content to them in their feed because we want as many people as possible to join these wonderful conversations about Chesterton
Because as we know Chesterton is always better with Brands until next time God bless you thank you
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