Dr. Godfrey Says Christendom Is Over (Part 2 of 2)

Welcome to the second part of our two-part analysis of Dr Godfrey’s recent lectures held here in Lancaster County on the end of Christendom but before we start the show I want to give some context and hopefully share a bit about why we are doing this we’ve been getting

A lot of feedback on these episodes about Dr Godfrey’s talks some positive some negative and we welcome both truly and I hope maybe if you understand why we are doing this it might help this make a bit more sense so why have we spent two weeks focusing on these

Lectures by Dr Godfrey well the main reason is that these lectures were given here in Lancaster County and they really hit home for us and for many of our listeners you see this is not an academic exercise for us we live in Lancaster County we’re raising our

Children in Lancaster County some of us have grandchildren here in Lancaster County and we do love Lancaster County and we love the Christians here in Lancaster County and we love what they have built by the grace and goodness of God over the past three centuries and we

Want our children and your children and their children after them to enjoy the goodness of God and to hear the true gospel proclaimed in this County and we want them to build on our generation’s faithfulness and we want them to advance Christ’s Reign Christendom if you will

Here in Lancaster County now as we look around and see homosexual and transgender fests in the quaint towns of Lancaster County we mourn not only for those young people being pulled into a nihilistic and destructive worldview but we also mourn the destruction of all the things that have made Lancaster County

Great you see when I talk to people outside of Lancaster County from other parts of Pennsylvania they are often shocked to hear that such Brazen celebrations of sin are being held here in Lancaster County I’ll hear them say things like oh I love lits it’s so beautiful in Christmas but wow I can’t

Believe those celebrations of transgenderism and homosexuality are happening out in the open open in Lancaster County I would have never thought that would happen in Lancaster County and what I usually tell them in response is well it’s really quite simple you see the reason these public celebrations are continuing to happen is

Because the hundreds and hundreds of churches in Lancaster County do next to nothing to oppose them so you see we have experienced firsthand every one of us on this panel the reluctance and even aversion to a public stand for the lordship of Christ right here in Lancaster County we are told it’s not

The job of Christians to publicly rebuke sin we are told it is mean-spirited to call on Sinners to repent and so while churches point fingers at the Christian nationalists or label us as divisive we see our County under the Judgment of God and reformed churches unwilling to

Publicly oppose sin and why is that well we are convinced that the ideas in talks like Dr Godfrey’s are part of the reason this is happening and this takes some time to explain and that’s why when all is said and done we will have spent over 3 hours discussing

It and that is why we are pleading with men like Pastor Robert Godfrey who hosted the conference to come in and engage so these ideas can be set plainly before the people of Lancaster County we are convinced that Christians need to apply God’s word not just in our homes

And not just in our churches but in our community in our County and we recognize that such a mindset is in many ways frowned upon in Lancaster County the Mantra has been for many years keep your head down don’t stir things up for Jesus and let everything else fall into place

Whatever happens out there outside the four walls of the church is not our business we are seeing what that is doing to Lancaster County and it breaks our hearts so we have to speak the truth and we hope in so doing we can help stir

Others up to join us and be part of the solution I’ll say this unless churches of Lancaster County rally to stand publicly and boldly for Christ paganism will continue to spread and our children will ask us why didn’t you do more to stand for Christ and

Advance his cause in this County I don’t want my children asking me that and that’s why we’re doing this so I hope you can keep those things in mind and I hope you’ll find this discussion helpful all right welcome back gentlemen to part two of our analysis of the end

Of Christendom and we have a lot to get to but first I’d like to summarize our last talk and this is going to be a very brief summary so I I would summarize and if there’s anything you gentlemen want to add to this but I would summarize our

Analysis of part one with these three points number one Dr Godfrey’s definition of Christendom flip-flop between the influence of Christianity on culture and more narrower definition of State enforced religion number two because of this ambiguous definition Dr Godfrey’s use of the term Christendom was confusing at times and number three

Dr Godfrey described the end of Christendom by referring to people’s beliefs and reactions to public sin namely sodomy in 2015 a description which does not fit with the definition of Christendom as the coercion of belief so we said a lot more than that but I think those are three things that jumped

Out to me anything specifically you guys would like to add from our first analysis sounds like a good summary to me okay all right so in part two we want to address address Dr Godfrey’s second and final lecture on the end of Christendom again this was delivered at zelton Reich Reformed Church in

Lancaster County and it was actually the end of October I think last time I said it was November but it was October 28th uh so this is kind of where we’re going today I have four hooks for you to kind of hang our critiques on our analysis on

These four hooks so we’ll try to to go through in somewhat of an order here uh first mix messages on coercion uh we touched on that a little bit last time but we want to just uh hit that again second a dismissal of Christian nationalism third the theonomic elephant

In the room and fourth the Practical consequences of Dr Godfrey’s rhetoric and how to respond to the end of Christendom so that’s where we’re going today and hopefully we’ll be able to give you some of our application what we think you know there were some things

That Dr Godfrey said that we would agree with and some things that he said that we wouldn’t agree with and what we should do move what’s what’s the future what should we do specifically in laner County right how do we move forward uh with the way things are do do we do we

Give up do we say well you know we can’t we can’t try to change the culture what do we do so uh let’s start with mixed messages on coercion and I just want to read through a quote here and and again this is um some of this will be reviewed

But I just want to hit this again in case you didn’t listen to our first part of the analysis so Dr Godfrey at this conference on the end of Christendom he said quote there was a coercive power the the state could use to enforce aspects of Christianity for a lot of the

History of Christendom now we’re talking about almost 1500 years of History the state used its coercive power to stop people from getting a divorce the state used its coercive power to arrest and punish homosexuals and I think the biggest single question when we think about going forward as Christians is do

We think we would like to see restored the coercive power of the state to enforce Christianity and so that’s kind of how Dr Godfrey frames his whole lecture series and once we get to the end he he does ask the question well what should the state be coercive about but he

Presents coercion generally speaking I’d say in a negative way uh later he does say okay the government maybe can use coercion but he paints Jesus as someone who is completely non-coercive and in fact let me play that clip here uh this is where Dr Godfrey mentions that Jesus

Doesn’t have a corus of bone in his body we mentioned this last time but we didn’t play the clip and there’s a few other things he says here that I would like our listeners to hear and then for you guys to uh to interact with so here

Is here’s Dr Godfrey talking about Jesus not having a course of bone in his body and one of the things that I’ve been thinking about these Christendom issues as well one of the things that came through to me as I’ve been looking at the gospel of Mark is I don’t see and

Maybe I’m missing it but I don’t see a coercive bone in Jesus body in the gospel there’s going to be coercion at the last day but that’s a different issue as he’s preaching the gospel as he’s establishing the church there is not a coercive bone in Jesus body in

Fact just recently I was teaching on um Mark 10 um one of the fascinating things about studying the gospel of Mark is how really stupid the disciples are it’s such an encouragement um if they hearing the word from jesus’ lips could be so thickheaded it it means there’s hope for

All of us all right well I know I’m I’m working on some things as far as uh my presentation but I think if if I came out and said hey look how stupid and blockheaded this bozo Dr Godfrey is that I’d probably be labeled uncharitable or

Something but uh but the Apostles of the early church and the men who left everything to follow Jesus call them stupid and you get a round of applause so I I found that I found that a bit odd uh but Jesus didn’t have a coercive bone

In his body and he would later say Jesus I don’t think ever once said believe what I’m saying or I’m going to lock you up it was always believe what I say because it’s true and it’s good for you and he says we need to get back to that

All right so I’d like to open it up to you gentlemen and some of this might be recap but I hadn’t played that clip before where where Dr Godfrey specifically says Jesus didn’t have a course of bone and his body he he calls the disciple stupid I know maybe it was

You know uh you know comic relief there but it just seemed a bit odd to me um so let me open it up Travis let me start with you anything else you’d like to add on this coercive piece and are there people out there saying you almost get

The impression that when Dr Godfrey says things like that there are people out there saying hey we want a system where if you don’t believe in Christianity we’re going to lock you up yeah uh it seems like that’s kind of a a misrepresentation of uh what a lot of the theonomic or or

Even people who wouldn’t necessarily label themselves as theists but want to have interaction and engagement with the culture I I don’t really know of anybody responsible who’s saying something like that um but the other thing about his specific quote there was that uh he pushed it off to you know he gets Cove

Jesus gets Cove in the end on the last day you know at the final judgment which obviously we would all all Christians would agree with that um but it is kind of hard to read through the gospels and not see how Jesus is confronting and like Luke brought up last time you know

The at the temple what he did there that was pretty coercive um twice yeah so it’s kind of hard to I think it it just kind of brought up to me how important our uh interpretive lens that we read scripture with how important that is is because I I find myself

Thinking you know and as as I’m praying through scripture and reading it I’m just like asking God please help me to see past my own uh difficulties you know what if my lens is wrong how am I viewing scripture and that’s why we always constantly need to come back and and

Re-evaluate uh when there’s something that’s brought up and I would hope that Dr Godfrey because of a lot of the conclusions he made here I would hope that he maybe he’ll he’ll hear this this podcast and maybe he’ll reconsider some things uh and rethink some things and

And maybe come to a better understanding of how to read scripture Luke I uh I think the jig was up um for for me when um Dr Godfrey admit Dr Godfrey came out and admitted um um I’m I’m a I’m a Republican and to me um the the conversations that are

Happening now that’s a dinosaur talk you are still identifying with republicanism in any way shape or form you still identify with that Wicked group of Godless christ-hating people you still want to be associated with those people you’re way behind the times Dr Godfrey you’re way be we the the the

The discussions that are happening now are so far beyond republicanism and um uh you know these uh I don’t know democratism democracy I don’t want to say democracy but uh we’re so far beyond that we we left that in the dust a long time ago and you’re still associating with those

People you’re way behind the times you you are not with what we’re H the discussions that we’re having I cannot believe that you’re still associating yourself that you want to associate yourself that with the the with the the party that you yourself called stupid and you said I’m a lifelong Republican I

Mean I would I would have expected I used to be a republican until um you know I started reading the Bible until I read the Bible and then I was like wow that’s what a waste of time all that is and and he’s like oh I’m a lifelong

Republican I cannot believe you just said that and you’re talking about the end of Christendom it it it’s such a disappointment for someone with um with such a long list of accomplishments and you know influence still is walking around as a card carrying Republic so your concern with with the Republican platform Luke

Is that it’s it’s not based on the Bible I mean that’s that’s ultimately your concern there there’s a lot of people out there they think would be registered Republicans vote in the primaries maybe but they’re but to put that forward as your platform as your identity and

Politics yes that’s your concern I I can understand you know uh him saying something like you know I still you know for what it’s worth I still identify myself a republican I I think it’s some of I think most people are at this time it’s like somewh of a waste of time I’m

Just trying to do what good I can as as with what influence I have or whatever but he didn’t say that he said I’m a LIF long I’m I’m I’m a republican like I am a republican with with no qualifier and uh you know everything

Else in in Christendom we get we get a big time qualifier um you know and and that was that was one thing that I was like I cannot believe we’re we’re he’s even he’s even saying I am I can’t believe you still want to associate with those

Horrible people um and the second thing was um the The Jig was kind of up for me um in the in the first talk but the second talk that that was uh kind of a tell was uh you said let’s talk about the I don’t you guys noticed this let’s

Talk about the benefits of of Christendom MH 60 seconds later oh that’s done now let’s spend the rest of the time talking about what I think are the the problems with Christendom yeah 60 seconds and what did we get with that 60 seconds we got well you know impact

The culture it brought a lot of followers it brought a lot of power and that’s about it okay but so did the Ottoman Empire so did the Mongols so did Rome you know the question of Christendom is you know a lot of Christians truly believe

That the Bible is the word of God and that the word of God is going to affect culture in a unique way that’s different from all the other religions right it’s going to affect it differently it’s going to bring something more than the other religions bring and and Christendom one of the

Great features about Christendom is that it brought something that no other religions brought like Freedom here I made a small list while while you were giving your intro it took me about well it took me about the same time that he took talking about the benefits of Christ of Christendom here’s a couple

Benefits of Christendom because he starts off with us he’s talking about what are the benefits of Christendom and he says a couple of vague things that all all influences in culture bring oh it affected architecture it affected art okay I mean so does black lives matter okay definitely affected architecture

Definitely affected architecture yes it did right the the crumbling buildings are still there right to this day but but what a in my opinion a very poor excuse for a presentation when you talk about the benefits of Christendom and you just give these vague generalizations and you move on to let’s

Go to the specifics of of the bad things but let me give you some benefits for for those who listen to this and they like okay that’s not specific enough let’s talk about some specific things that Christendom did bring um that other cultures did not bring first separation

Of separation of church and state that’s a Christian that’s that’s a result of Christendom secondly dad you talk about this one a lot hospitals and my and and my definition of what Christendom brought as a positive thing is something that is uh was is is a good thing that is

Consistent that loves God and loves neighbor but is not necessarily commanded in scripture the Bible never says Thou shalt establish the separation of church and state the Bible never says Thou shalt make hospitals okay these are just uh out outworkings of the scriptures the foundations that the

Scriptures gave us and we that we institutionalized that we put in our institutions the separation of church and state hospitals College and universities he kind of says that but he doesn’t say that was an exclusive feature um and it was and it still is today um well I mean the the the

Establishment of colleges universities as an idea how about this one the end of slavery we’re going to talk about that one Christmas the United States Constitution and here’s one of my favorites jeans okay that’s a that’s a product of the hugos all right like pants yes this well yeah denim

Right right from from denam which is n France right and um if I’m saying that name correctly I never say the French names correctly but Joel the expert but who does say French names correctly they leave the same correctly who wants to no I’m just kidding but these are features

Of of of Christendom that Christendom provided um uh that that gives Dr Godfrey the opportunity to speak in the way that he’s is speaking and it shows such such a disrespect to the hard work of of those people who came before us who really did want to see God’s kingdom

Here on Earth and who worked and sacrificed their lives and do Dr Godfrey just waves it a hand waves away with his hand it’s gone with a wave of the hand for him and he and he does not give it any sort of respect at all and he moves

Right into here’s my problems with it uh W with with Christendom which are very specific and I think that is so disrespectful to the history I think it’s disrespectful to the scriptures he was definitely openly disrespectful to the apostles and the disciples yeah it’s hard not to agree with you on that point

Very disrespectful it was a joke I guess but it was that that was offputting for me and I guess I say a lot of off-putting things but I don’t ever want to say that I I I I know it was it was so I mean Dr gy when you die a horrible

Death then you’ll be count for for the sake of of of the scriptures and for Christ then maybe we’ll talk about how you can criticize the disciples but you’re not you’re not going to do that all right um we’ll come back more on that I think there’s some things that

You brought up especially when we get to maybe two Kingdom Theology and the idea of you know we are to advance Christ’s Reign here but in two Kingdom theology there’s just this caveat well since we’re you know there’s the Eternal state and that kind of puts a a damper on

Really what we should be doing here and I think that’s where some of our concerns come in um I want to do one more clip because I want to move on from this coercion thing because we’ve talked about it but I think it’s going to be

Important when we go to our second point on the dismissal of Christian nationalism so Joel before I even come to you let me play this clip and this is where and I’m playing this even though we mentioned it before because Dr Godfrey I just want our listeners to

Understand that he he dis he uses coercion as a negative dismisses it says Jesus wasn’t coercive then Praises coercion then ask the question later do we really want coercion what should the state be and I think it’s a bit confusing for for the listeners there

And we tried to make the point and I know I did in a previous Short episode that coercion is not bad the question is and we mentioned this what coercion is legitimate in each sphere so this will be a clip and then we can move on from

Coercion and talk about his Five Points that he says Hey here are the here are the potential ways to respond I can remember walking through the corridors of my junior high and um it was in a somewhat tough neighborhood and um seeing the assistant principal walked down the corridor and one of the

Students looked sort of crosseyed at the at the vice principal and he picked the student up and jammed him against the wall I’m so old and so bad I think that’s a thing of beauty it’s a different world isn’t it that vice principal would go to prison today should have been

Persuasive right and I I think that just highlights to me part of the the confusion here with this talk uh coercion is you know Jesus epitomized non-coercion and yet it’s a thing of beauty to use coercion to promote what would be a good cause so anyway we can

Come back back to that point Joel anything else you want to add on the idea of coercion maybe keep it brief because I want to move on to to a dismissal of Christian nationalism yeah there’s there’s so much confusion here and I’m I’m going to posit that the

Reason why we have such confusion is because we’ve already rejected the law word of God from the very beginning let me let me illustrate what I’m what I’m saying he said in the first clip that you played there Chris was you know we need to think do we want the Bible or

Christianity to influence laws of of homosexuality and what was that divorce do yeah do we I who cares what we who’s asking what we want you know from the very beginning his son prayed a good a great prayer uh I wrote down some things he said his opening prayer that we come

Together to hear the truth of your word we’re hardly into the lecture until we’re hearing the truth of what we think what what what do we want to do I don’t care we’re going to be all dead soon the word of God is forever settled in heaven

So how about if we go there which is exactly where we didn’t go you know and I said I would I would try to be calm this time you know and I I guys I know when I get away from this you can’t see

Inside my head I I try I want to be seeing inside Joel Saint’s head that would be something I I want to be I want to sound scholly I want to sound calm you know dialogue and so but this is terrible you you are ahead of lioner Ministries you’re you’re you’re

Reformed and all you can set well pretty much all you can give us is well you you know what do we think mhm and and that that’s that that’s that’s that was my question to Chris a couple days ago where’s the outrage yeah this is outrageous this is completely outrageous

That a leader who Styles himself as a theologian and a historian is saying things like this that he’s that he’s that he’s positing these things in this way it’s completely outrageous well well it’s it’s disingenuous at best because I I I wanted him to say what do we think what

We think about like murder how about that do we want to be coercive when it comes to when to talk about coercion I I would hope so but what he does is he’s in those vague areas now that are shifting in Christianity and dare I say even Christendom homos we don’t know

Divorce we don’t know keep it there Dr Godfrey come on bro come on out and tell us what we think what we should think about murder right we we didn’t get th about kidnapping we didn’t get thus sayith the Lord but we did get thus sayith Abraham Kyper the entire time

What in the world all right we will get to that Joel that’s a good point you bring up that the question really is in what would we like and I understand what he’s saying well hey how do we if we’re Christians and but to your point he

Didn’t really say what what does the Bible say the course of power of the state should be and that’s what we’re going to get to we’re going to get more to that in a minute so let’s move that’s what I thought the prayer was in the beginning right let’s move on to Part

Two and A dismissal of Christian National ISM so at the end of his or probably in the middle of his second lecture I guess it was his SE second lecture was how to respond and he had five ways that he posited these are the five common ways and he said the last

One was the right one it was his view uh so I’m not going to go through in detail all of them but I do want to mention list them so the first the first way to respond was the Amish menite way to withdraw from the world uh the world’s

In evil place and we should have nothing to do with it he did call that an extreme view he said sometimes it’s appealing okay uh and then he went to the second the second view which he called the takeback over point of view and this was the Christian nationalist

Point of view and he definitely used that label um and I’m going to play this clip um because I think this is very important and this was pretty much all the time he gave to Christian nationalism uh there was a brief like you mentioned Travis uh question in the

Q&A section I don’t have that clip but I want to play this clip uh this is where he he mentions Christian nationalists as an extreme response to what he calls the end of chrisan On The Other Extreme we could say secondly are those who have often labeled themselves Christian

Nationalists and these are people who want maybe even violently to restore Christendom these people are perfectly willing to be coercive and these people often are very angry about the world they live in all right so I wanted to play the other clips about coercion even though we had covered them to set that

Stage because Dr Godfrey he is a communicator and he he KN he was setting the stage with coercion prior to this dismissal of Christian nationalists he’s painting this picture I think it’s inconsistent at times but Jesus wasn’t coercive uh we don’t want to be coercive and then here are these Christian

Nationalists and they’re perfectly willing to be coercive and and they’re an extreme response and they want to maybe even violently he said restore Christendom uh and then and then he moves on uh so if you take these two lectures together you know he describes his picture of Christian nationalist if

You had no idea what was going on you just listen to these lectures by Dr Godfrey you’d think man these Christian nationalists they’re angry maybe they want to lock people up if uh they don’t believe in Jesus I mean that’s kind of the picture that he’s painting I know he

Didn’t say it here but he describes Christian nationalists as people who want to maybe even violently restore Christendom so uh Travis do you think that’s a helpful uh definition description illustration of Christian nationalism currently that was that was really frustrating because he basically like you said he he labeled it extreme

On The Other Extreme uh some of them maybe violently want to take back uh what what we used to have I guess is what the idea was he was really setting up a straw man uh I thought like I I was re-watching or Rel listening to uh

Biden’s speech when he called out the a a Republicans and it had like the red lights behind it and you had the Marines standing there you know just like that that straw man and labeling everybody who’s conservative as that um I mean I’m sure that there are versions of

Calvinism and and reformed Christianity that Dr Godfrey wouldn’t want to associate with but he still Associates with reformed Christianity uh you know so it’s it’s that seam old thing that we’ve talked about an example would have been nice of an angry course of Christian National uh name two right please oh okay name

One he would he would probably say like oh yeah like Alex Jones or somebody like you know like I’m just guessing I don’t know who he has in mind but uh it’s really just a straw man that that he’s going to then just you know Lop its head

Off torch it whatever and okay let’s move on now let’s talk about the way that we should do this and that’s like you said Joel It’s disingenuous and you would expect more from somebody who who has the ability to reason uh sincerely here well well I’m

To the point where I don’t expect more I after listening this now I’m just to the point of expecting something and I’m not even getting that well I think there’s so much of this conversation that was or so much of this presentation that was it’s not okay for

Thee but it’s okay for me I heard that many times like the coercion thing not okay for you to be coercive but it’s okay for me to celebrate coerciveness when I saw it you know cleaning up the cleaning up the streets from the drug addicts and and the principal uh

Slamming that you know that student up against the wall it’s okay for me to celebrate coerciveness but it’s not okay for you to do it and and uh the other thing was he was like you know so many people are angry and know these all these other people are angry you know

And and uh the Protestants are angry that um he said that the the the Protestants are angry that our nation was taken away from us and he and he kind of like like like laughing at him a little bit like you know it was like it

Was our nation to begin with and that’s something that that we need to uh consider that’s what he said and then he goes well you know me you know I’m not angry mostly okay so you are angry what are you angry about and is it okay for me to

Be angry about the same things you’re angry about but again for him it’s okay for him to be angry a little bit but for the rest of us who are angry it’s not okay because because I don’t know I I I don’t know but this entire thing there

Are so many times when it’s not okay for the rest of us you know uh um plebians kicking and gouging in the mud and the blood and the beer but it’s okay for him up in his Ivory Tower to say things like oh yeah well I can be angry about the

State of the country but not me not you and uh it’s okay for me to look at the course of nature of people and celebrate and say that’s good but it’s not okay for you to do it and that is Ivory Tower theology I’m an accommodation you you

You slobs down there with your Tores and pitchforks settle down take take a chill pill is that not the attitude we’re getting in this presentation on the other hand he said what he was angry about he was angry about not being able to walk down the street safely yeah and about uh

Disrespectful kids yeah sounds like some coercion is needed here you know which I would agree with those things but maybe not angry but maybe not angry about sodomy celebrated being legally recognized I think that’s no fault divorce ramp which is which is a disaster how how’s this for coercion uh

Take care you don’t offend one of these little ones for the offender of the little ones it would be better for him that a millstone be tied around his neck and be thrown in the water someplace coercion what is Godfrey talking about here but that’s in the end well just

Push that off to the end well I guess you would have to do that you know do that later on some when in the Kingdom you know and and to the point that you bring up there um you know one of the things I want I want to say here a

Little bit is he’s saying the Christian nationalists are maybe violent okay I don’t know of any but he’s saying they are and Heary yeah oh violent what we broke a window wow that’s something to be concerned about but here’s the thing then he talks earlier he talks about the

French Revolution now’ll be fair later on he does say it was Godless but when he talks about the first time and this is the thing this I notice this with people if you say these people are violent when they’re not you’re going to say somebody else was not violent when

They were M and he addresses the French Revolution and he says that the that the um uh um Spirit of the Revolution well or or the motto Liberty fraternity equality now he doesn’t say he says he says Freedom uh frat or Brotherhood you and and what’s the other Freedom Brotherhood and equality right

And I don’t know what kind of equality means procrastin equality or what but the French Revolution was extremely violent he’s got nothing to say about the violence of the French Revolution where they had to invent a guillotine because they couldn’t kill people fast enough and you know what he does there

He doesn’t even complete the entire motto I was shocked at this point and this is why I say I want something I was shocked Liberty Eternity for equality or death when he quoted that motto I was waiting for him to finish it he didn’t even do it he gave us pretty much a

Marxist interpretation of French Revol well difference between the uh rich and the poor yeah it was a Marxist interpret a by the way after the French Revolution did we have any uh any closing of the gap between the rich and the poor I’m not familiar with any so my point is if

You are going to label some people violent who are not at some point you’re going to miss people who actually are violent and Godfrey strikes out on this completely it’s a huge miss something else to to get back to this coercion idea that I just thought of is uh you

Know is the threat of violence coercion and of course it is Jesus did that all the time with the verse you just talked about you know if you make any one of these little ones stumble this is what’s going to happen you know like Dr maybe it’s going to happen at

The end but the threat of violence is coercive you know in law enforcement uh there’s like this uh there’s the Continuum of uh the use of force continuum and the first level of force is Officer presence there’s no actual coercion or Force being no actual Force being

Applied but coercion is being applied as soon as an officer arrives on the scene of something begins they are there MH in uniform with a gun on that is the threat of force and that is coercion so something Dr Gaffrey needs to think about is maybe he just has a problem

With you know the level of coercion being used but you can’t get away like we said before threat of it is still coercion Jesus did that all the time I I don’t want to say Dr Godfrey is an Abomination but the Bible does say He Who uh condemns the righteous and

Justifies the wicked um is is an Abomination to the Lord I believe that’s the proverb but but we’re getting dangerously close to that how so well with what he’s saying there you know he he’s he’s in in the French Revolution he’s justifying the French Revolution and he’s condemning the people who want

To see this nation to be a a Godly Christian Nation he’s getting very close to indirectly yeah I know he like Joel said he he ended up distancing saying the French Revolution was Godless but there was some ambiguity there but but more to your point especially with his um dismissal of Christian

Nationalism I I really don’t know ultimately what what he means here I think that’s one of the problems with this dismissal of Christian nationalism I want to make two points and asked you something Joel here uh before we move on to point three but he talks about these angry Christian nationalists I think

Someone like you Joel people might look at and say see here’s an example of an an angry old man who uh who is who is just upset you’re right on all all three counts angry old man well but the thing is people who know you and you know

Maybe this for other people is not worth much but for people who know you it is I mean you’re one of the most you know joyful happy you know I think joyful is a better word mirthful people that I know um but yet you know people see your

Response sometimes to iniquity and sin and you’re reacting to it w with with passion and that’s something that our culture I I don’t think really knows how to how to how to handle how to interpret how to how to digest you know here here’s a man who who is is a joyful man

But when we see him here he’s angry about he’s angry about Sin I mean can you give us a brief defense for being angry about God God’s law not being followed and the consequences of that on on your county and the people that you live around and what you see happening

Well well you know um I I cannot compare myself to the apostles at all I I cannot be mentioned in the same book with those folks but what was said about those guys they’ve turned the world upside down what kind of a world a world of wickedness a world

Of of human sacrifice a world of idolatry and murder and these people came in and in the book of Acts you you pretty much and we’ve talked about this before you pretty much didn’t have Paul going to any City without somebody getting hurt sometimes people got killed now you

Don’t you don’t go in there with these in these new cities with you know can we have an academic building here to discuss you know no they were out in the Street saying this is Wicked This is vile this is wrong you must stop doing these things and they did it with

Passion and emotion for example we see in Acts 17 Paul was upset he sees all these idols and It’s upsetting to him and and how can it not be if you love Christ and the fear of the Lord is to hate evil Proverbs says that now think about that that’s an emotional

Response I hate what’s going on here and frankly um shame on me I don’t hate it enough all right so we need we need angrier Joel uh but you’re right the fear of the Lord is hatred of evil and and I think that’s something that that is missing in

Our culture and even in contemporary Christianity reformed Christianity it has been feminized you know you know if you have you know emotions are okay we’ve made a virtue out of out of being comfortable Chris have we made a virtue out of being comfortable with evil has that become a virtue in in Christianity

Right if you respond with anger or emotion or upset about I mean that’s and I’ve listened to some other Talks by Dr gfy I know he’s not the only one that’s kind of like look we we need to not have so much anger about what’s happening

Here and there’s there’s an anger of man I understand that but there is also a righteous hatred and we have made peace with it there are emotions that are okay in contemporary Christendom you know and and those emotions have their place but I would argue that a lot of them are

Feem you know more primarily feminine emotions that now we’ve we’ve put in the in the church and on the men the pastors and say you can have these emotions but you can’t have these these emotions of righteous anger and hatred for sin uh and I think that’s that’s hurting the

Christian witness everybody needs to get a copy of Zach garrus’s book masculine Christianity and he talks about that in there and how especially in the west and Leon podles did it uh probably a couple decades ago I think it was in his book Church impotent um just he he discusses

All these things about how especially in the west and they they kind of pinpoint uh Bernard of clairo as the beginning of the feminization of Christianity in the west and we really need to get back to like Joel was just pointing out um the apostles the prophets all the leaders of

Christ’s people and in the Old Testament the people of Israel uh they were masculine about you know like they they weren’t afraid to get into little dust UPS here and there and and sometimes big dust UPS you know like in Ephesus for the apost Apostle Paul um so it is

Definitely something that we all kind of tend to react against in Western Christianity because we’ve been indoctrinated in this nicer than Jesus mentality and it you know you got to get out of that that way of thinking in our modern culture one of the most UN Christlike people that we know of is

Jesus how Christlike is to make a whip and like drive people whipping people out you the you know the the the cages are coming open you know who knows the animals are and the birds are flapping around coins rolling everywhere dust and feathers everywhere what an un

Christlike person and and you have to consider the fact that how long does it take to make a whip of Ninetales I mean it’s not like it’s just sit we don’t know if it’s nine tals or not it was a whip but it was a whip I mean but how

They he went and yeah he made it yes that would have taken some time he wasn’t like let me borrow your whip dude and was this wasn’t a crime of passion like like ah you know he went and he carefully thought it out very measured he was can you imagine coming across

Christ as he’s making the whip they say what are you doing Lord I’m making a whip you know I mean so this I’m clean up this mess I’m going to clean up this mess it wasn’t like this you know it was a it was a premeditated act and I

Believe it was I mean I mean I believe it was very passionate I think he was Furious but if you can imagine coming across Christ as he’s making uh the whip but but talk go talking about what you’re uh saying Travis I need to add something things here I need to improve

My list of things that uh uh Christians contrib uh Christendom contributed that’d be male and female bathrooms mail and and and and and see it’s funny now right and it’s it’s hilarious when we think about it but the more time goes on the more it looks like um Christendom is establishing the

Difference between male and female because the voice against the blurring of the Sexes largely is coming from the Christians saying I mean and the the the the foundation therefore he made the male and female you can’t get any deeper than that you can’t even to even to the

Biology you can’t go any deeper than he he made them male and female because the biology uh argument falls apart if we just rested rest my case on the biology if we don’t go through the scriptures we’re going to lose the the Sexes so I’m going to say male and female bathrooms

And I’m going to also add one I forgot male and female prisons the separation of the Sexes to protect the female sex oh man okay uh female protection is a feature of Christendom that he keeps I keep on having to update his his very short and non-specific list sorry go ahead Chris

Well I mean ultimately isn’t paganism androgynous yes blurring blurring the line between bluring all the lines yeah which makes it impossible to even Converse because you you there there’s no distinctions anymore male and female distinction that’s what I’m running down John chap 2:15 when he had made a whip

Of cords he drove them all out of the temple with the sheep and The Oxen and poured out the Changers money and overturned the tables and he said to those who sold doves take these things away do not make my father’s house a house of merchandise then his disciples

Remembered what it was written that it was written Zeal for your house has eaten me up passion and Zeal and righteous anger uh obviously Jesus is is the perfect model of that uh Joel and Luke and Travis one other thing on this point on Christian nationalism I mean

Joel you said it before and and the more I hear you say it the more I find myself agreeing with it it’s like I I keep coming to defense of this term Christian nationalism and it’s not something that I you know would have because I understand it’s Associated sometimes

With with trumpism and these things and but we’ve talked about before it’s Christian nationalism and simply because people are there are people out there who would abuse the name Christian do we then just dismiss it at what point do we say well we can’t use Christian anymore

So you know are there people that use the term Christian nationalists that are not arguing the biblical position yes right I I would agree there’s plenty that are arguing for statism and they’re using this uh this Christian nationalism term and we’ve talked about step Wolf’s book before on this podcast and we would

Disagree with I think a lot of stuff in there we’d probably agree with some of it but to just dismiss you know all the people that are using that term who who say I’m a Christian and I want a Christian Nation as an extreme group that wants to use violence uh to but

Again that’s a straw man like you want to use coercion as well Dr Godfrey so I just want anybody that wants to comment on this idea of you know Christian nationalists and and how the Reformed Church is still not really understanding like hey why don’t we explain what this

Position is uh so Joel anything else you want to add on that as you have become the resident defender of Christian nationalism by by def maybe reluctantly reluctant defender of Christian nationalism but if we want a nation if we just say want our nation its laws its institutions and its Customs to honor

Christ then I guess you’re you’re a Christian nationalist um but is that the way it’s being presented is oh these guys want to lock people up if they don’t believe in Jesus so anything you want to add on that Joel yeah and I’ve said before I am a Christian

Internationalist at least make a Joyful Noise unto the Lord All Ye Lands All Ye Lands serve the Lord with gladness All Ye Lands come before his presence with singing All Ye Lands know ye that the Lord he is God All Ye Lands it is he that has made us and not we ourselves

This is the this is a big problem when it comes to Nations who made the Nations did we make them through Wars and and and and and coercion if you will or is Christ actually head of the Nations now and and creator of all now here’s here’s the

Thing if you know Christ is let’s understand this we have Matthew Mark Luke and John who gave us Christ in history in the past what he was here on Earth John in the Book of Revelation the the revelation of Jesus Christ let’s not forget that’s the name of it this is

Revealing who Christ is now and he’s introduced in in Revelation chapter 1 as the ruler of the Kings of the earth If you deny that Christ is the ruler of the kings of the earth and I didn’t hear Godfrey go either way in this I’d love to ask him I really would

You know Dr Godfrey do you believe that the civil magistrate answers to Christ in his role as civil magistrate not not not that he just went forward and and and and gave his life to Jesus and prayed a prayer at a Billy Graham crusade it’s not what I’m talking about

I’m talking about in his office of civil magistrate do you believe that the civil istate answers to Jesus Christ because John apparently thought that he did so we if if we’re going to talk about Christian nationalism that’s where we need to start that Jesus Christ is the

Ruler the Ruler all Kings have a ruler to which they must answer if that’s where we start I’m on board with Christian nationalism so far so good I think he did answer your question at the very end I took a note um his conclusion his 20 second conclusion to what we

Should take way and he said God’s in charge Christ is King of his church oh so we did answer that question he did I took a note on that because like okay you know and that’s where two Kingdom that’s that’s exactly where this this theology discussion really makes a

Difference uh he’s in charge he’s ruling the church everybody else gets a free pass or so his his interpretation of the Revelation would be different than yours Joel well I put that in the future I would assume save some of that because I do want to bring that up when we move to

To point three and four because I have another thing I want to read from something Godfrey wrote some time ago but I want to move on from this Christian nationalism thing I want to say one more thing if you have any other comments then we can move on from it I

Think when he dismisses Christian nationalism here uh he’s dismissing people who so now people are faced with okay well do I have to reject the label of Christian and do I have to reject being someone who believes in Nations and do I have to become a globalist so I think

What he does here is he pins us with this label and he says look if you if you are a Christian and you believe that the nation should be Christian you’re a Christian Nationalist and I don’t think that’s helpful I don’t think it’s helpful to the conversation I don’t

Think it’s helpful to where we’re at as a nation to say hey if you’re a Christian nationalist you’re part of those extremists who want to use coercion uh to to get your way and it just it’s not helpful and and and it it it goes against a lot of what he’s

Saying when when he’s talking about the the Protestants you know saying you know and the and and the priest smiled and said you know we never thought it was our country you know and that like as if some as if this is some sort of a deep

Insight like the Catholics are going to give us Insight on on uh on a on a nation um and and he said you know I think we need to consider that and and he he paints this picture of it being bad that the Protestants thought the the

Nation belonged to us he paints that in a negative light well Dr Godfrey who do you want it to belong to do you want it to belong to the pagans is that what you want or the Muslims or the Muslims the who do you want it to belong to I can’t

Think of a better I can’t think of a better people group than for for a nation to if you want to use the term belong to than the Protestants and and the people that came here gave you with with barely the clothes on their backs they would appreciate the fact that this

Was a Protestant Nation because they were leaving nation that they couldn’t wait to get out of and where do you see where do you see this horrible aspect of coercion in American history in American history where do you see this horrible thing of of of uh coercion so the

Protestants had the nation they basically got rid of coercion the way that you’re they were that you’re understanding it and you still believe that it was a bad thing that the Protestants think that it’s theirs well well he’s going to go to things like persecuting some Baptist somewhere in

New England and and Salem Witch Trials and so forth but I would I would argue the exception proves the rule yeah I was going to say that’s that wasn’t institutionalized theists are the one who ended the Salem Witch Trials let’s just be clear there was uh increased ma

Said hey we need to follow biblical law here you can’t use spectral evidence so yeah there’s a lot we could say there and I I was just actually reading something the other night and this would be a whole other topic but uh talking about Islam and how right now uh in the

History of of the conflict between Islam and the west and there’s a huge conflict there right now the West is more afraid of Islam than it has ever been there’s more fear over you know what are these Islamic terrorists going to do that and this author was saying there’s more fear

Than there’s ever been and yet never has the West been so militarily stronger than Islam and yet there’s more fear now than ever and the reason he said that he said well there’s a reason that we have more fear now because in the past even though the West wasn’t way over were you

Know they had they didn’t have the upper hand militarily all the time but you know what they had they had men who believed what they were fighting for they were fighting for their faith their family and their country and you can’t put a price on that and so now you say

Well you know it doesn’t matter what what country that doesn’t matter what our our our laws are doesn’t matter if Christ is honored here that’s going to put you in a much dangerous a worse position I just found that very interesting that that that kind of goes

To what you’re saying that hey you know when when this was viewed as a Protestant Nation MH the idea was Christ is going to be honored here and we are going to to defend and I wasn’t perfect we have a lot of critiques with it but

We’re going to defend these values of of justice and righteousness that come from Christ and as much as we did that we were blessed there were times we strayed from that and I think we suffered for that but to moving forward that has to be where we okay what were the good

Things about our past about saying we we The Men Who came over here wanted to identify this he talk about the pilgrims and and the Puritans as a as Christ’s Christ is King of this nation and we believe that that mean that will lead to blessing and righteousness and justice

For our children and their children and that’s something that we’ll fight for if we don’t have that to fight for what do we have to fight for and that’s one of the things you know I’ve read some other stuff online people are like you know I

I’ll I would defend you know my family and my neighbors but I’m not going to war to fight for some globalist agenda and US oil interests like yeah what is that yeah and so the further we get away from an understanding of what what a nation really what’s its identity and

Every nation its identity is always tied with its God and so if we don’t have that we’re going to have no we we are going to be more open to destruction and attack whether it’s a literal one or implosion from within than ever but this goes back to what I was saying before

About it’s okay for me but it’s not okay for thee here he is poo pooing the Protestants again and remember that guy dad you said was on the radio program who was who was always like well I’m a fivepoint calvinist and proceeds to proceeds to poo poo Calvinism very effective it’s the same

Thing here it’s the same thing here you know he he’s getting up there he has nothing good to say about Calvinists or Calvinism this entire time or Protestants n i mean he I’m sure good to say at other times he would but in this in this two-part presentation that was

The impression you got yeah he got the impression and there was a time when he basically says it was Universal among the Calvinists that they wanted all churches to be the Calvinists or or put in prison that is historically not true that is just not true yeah maybe you can

Find a group of Calvinists at one point who maybe were in power who believe that but you cannot say that all the institutional Calvinists were United in this one voice you know you know burn all Heretics that is not true and it was in fact Cromwell who established freedom

Of religion before it was cool you know he was just like can we please just all get along here and and I don’t care really what you believe okay no Catholics okay but but can the Presbyterians and and the covenantor get along you know let’s just can we can we stop trying to

Institutionalize a state religion around here and and in fact Carl was a man of Peace because he wanted to stop the war between England and the Dutch he said we’re all reformed Brethren here can we stop fighting each other a man of Peace yes and those wars were often started

Because of trade Wars because of statism you know and and or you know that’s that’s that’s usually how how they started because like sanction and here and and tariff there and then we start fighting each other over that but but again it’s it’s this idea that’s that

You know you you I mean it’s okay for me to be a calvinist and a Protestant and all that kind of stuff but I got nothing really good to say about you being it you know the rest of you people you know you know you all want this to be a

Christian Nation H whatever you know I I can be angry about the state of things you can’t uh I I can I can be moan uh coercion in the culture but not in my own personal life and you know he he keeps on going back to this it’s okay

For me but it’s not okay for thee and it’s it’s so frustrating throughout the whole presentation you got nothing good to say about Calvinism or the Calvinists none you know he’s like oh you know this typical you know negative aspect of Calvinism the anti-revolutionary typical calvinist yeah Calvinists are so

Negative about everything that’s that’s a feature of of Calvinism it’s just here’s here’s a new Flash calvinist did not invent the guillotine that’s the news flash for the morning all right we got we got to move on to part three Travis is there anything else

You want to add before we go to part three nope okay so we talked about Christian nationalism there a little bit I want to go to point three which I’ve labeled the Theon theonomic elephant in the room uh he goes he gives points three or his the uh respon is three four

And five so the response one was the Amish menite withdrawal response point two was the extreme takeback over Christian nationalist response point three is what he calls the neutralist point of view natural we can have these things in common we don’t need Christendom just Justice and he he

Doesn’t say that’s a good solution but then later he seems to I would say he does embrace hints of it when he’s like we can we can have common cause with people on the issue of abortion and stuff so I don’t want to spend too much

Time on that but that was a little bit of of I think back and forth the fourth response I’m not sure what this really is the Evangelical response convert people one at a time and then when we convert enough we can make a difference I mean isn’t that kind of like necessary

To any sort of uh response like is is does that almost sound like Christendom I don’t I don’t I don’t understand what his like even what he wants don’t you need people to come to faith in Christ and to embrace what the Bible says so I just found that response

Weird I thought it basically it seemed like the mentality of most Christ like almost like that ptic mentality that the main thing we need to do is just convert Souls I think that’s the point he was making okay it seemed to me he was saying well then we can make a

Difference right and and there I think there was a bit of a dig in there at postmillennialism a slight dig because he said unless you’re really optimistic I don’t think you’re going to convert enough people to make a difference right but it’s always the same question like

Okay let’s say the person gets converted like whoever it is let’s say the carpenter down the road gets converted is that going to impact how he runs his carpentry business is the mayor of this small town getting converted well should that change how he so what then that’s

Always the question what’s the next step then okay we got this person in church they believe in Christ now what makes no difference publicly because Jesus is the only king of his church all right well he’s going he’s going to disagree with that he’s going to say Jesus is King of

The other spheres but we can move on from we a Kyper yeah yeah we can move on from point four I just thought that was a little bit weird I would think you know I I know that Christ is continuing to save people and that’s a huge part of

The advance of Christendom salvation you would argue that that is how a lot of these things are going to come about right and how have right yeah so anyway that was okay now point five he says this is the correct response the right response this is the Abraham Kyper

Response um and I just want to maybe try to summarize this he says the old pattern of coercion wasn’t working anymore and so he talks for I don’t know 15 20 minutes about Kyper and I’m not sure what really the substance was I mean I’m familiar with the argument uh

That Kyper makes where he he says there’s these different spheres we got to get away from a state Church Kyper is saying look the the church and the state are distinct we don’t want them melded together but yet Christ is still Lord over every sphere and you could say the

Family church and state to keep it simple those three things so I think Kyper uh uh Godfrey gave a lot of you know philosophical points during this 15 20 minutes you know Kyper saw this coming and so here we are you know we have the tyranny of the individual in

America and on and on and then in conclusion uh basically Dr Gaffrey says I don’t know what we should do next uh so I I fail to see how Dr Gody really applied Ker’s view as a response uh he ended up simply saying well what doc what uh Abraham Kyper teaches us is

That we need to think about this uh and I don’t really know what we should do with Mirage or adultery or divorce I don’t really know but and I know Joel you’re you’re ready for this one but but then he said um you know we we’ve we’ve never really had to think

About this before but before you respond to that this is the last clip I want to play because this is where and I know this is near and dear to your heart Luke this is where um Dr Godfrey says you know what we need to think about is what

Sins should should be crimes and I know you that’s something that the way if you were listening to him then Joel Joel is going to have some things to say I’m sure you would think that this is something that Christians have not thought of before until now so here’s

The last clip I have from Dr Godfrey uh where he is this is part of his response you know the right response he says to the end of Christendom and the state has to think about Justice in relation to a just God not just in terms of the will of the

People or the will of some other organization now does this solve all the problems by no means but it established a framework for beginning to think about it and Kyper says if we don’t begin to think this way we are opening ourselves up to some of the worst forms of tyranny and I

Think Kyper would look around America today and say I told you so it’s exactly where we’re headed the hard part is this where do we make a distinction between what we call sin and what we want to see labeled as crime in Christendom we largely agreed that the sin of homosexuality should

Also be labeled a crime do we still agree about that you see this is where it becomes harder if Christendom is over if we can’t in a sort of maybe unthinking maybe just inherited way apply Christianity to the legal system and to Crime what is our public

Voice what Kyper said was and I think he’s right about this we as Christian citizens have a right to a public voice I think the challenge for us is Christians is we don’t really know what we want we know what we want if Christ were ruling in glory we know what we

Want in the church but do we know what we want as a matter of public policy what are we willing to ask the state to be coercive about what kind of divorce laws ought we to have ought we have radical no fault divorce anybody wants to divorce can

Divorce is that good for society I don’t know I think we as Christians have to think about these things in the way we never had to think about them before because a hundred years ago we just sort of thought what the church says is what

We ought to try to have in civil law kper says civil law is one thing the church is another we have to see that those things are distinct what do we think about gay marriage I’m not arguing for gay marriage I’m not arguing against it I’m just saying

If we as Christians want to have a public voice we have to think this through I’m not a kyber scholar I’ve read some Kyper but my understanding of Kyper is quite different than what he’s presenting and it seems to me like Kyper would be a combination of of number two

And number four Christian nationalism CU he was the prime minister of the Netherlands with an exclusively Christian party political party yes right and yeah so basically he ran a Christian nationalist party mhm and he was all about taking you know converting the soul and bringing people into the Christian faith and Theology and

Politics yeah and and he really developed not that it wasn’t there before but just developed the idea of the sphere sovereignty and to say that he that he’s on board with what Godfrey is pushing I just that that doesn’t make sense to me that doesn’t dive I I want to play uh a

Clip real quick of of what I think is the problem of what um of Dr God is talking about this is a clip by by you guys remember Oliver Anthony right you know um richond North Richmond he’s he’s in an interview with Jordan Peterson and

This is a really short clip but this is to me is is what I see the problem being with what uh Dr Gaffrey saying people say that I’m a fence sitter and that I need to have some sort of call to action and I guess like if there’s anything

That I would respond to that with um given the opportunity we have now it’s like I think we need to take a step back and re-envision what we want the next 20 or 30 years to look like and there’s an important verse that came to mind a Pharisee asked Jesus teacher which is

The greatest commandment in the law and Jesus replied love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your mind this is the first and greatest commandment and the second is love your neighbor as yourself like as simple as that is if we could just

Find a way to make those okay and he says if we could just find a way if only there was if only there was another part if that verse just kept going and said for all on these two Commandments hang the law and the prophets there we go

Right and it’s like this hand ringing oh if we just had Lord show me a way to love my neighbor and love you with all my heart soul mind and strength well if you just would have kept reading it would have been right there and Dr GTH is like asking all these questions

What’s between a sin and a crime and Dr Godfrey if you just open your Bible if you would just open your Bible and read it and and and believe it then you would find the difference between a sin and a crime all of your ways I consider to be

Right says the psalmist in Psalm 119 the law of the Lord is perfect you know and and if the law is of the Lord is talking about Justice then its view on Justice is perfect and and this Dr godfre up there saying we just had a way to to to

To understand and and he goes how how can we find this way I don’t know and you call yourself a theologian and and first Peter second Peter chapter 1 says his divine power has granted us everything that pertains to life and godliness and where do we find that div

Just godliness sorry Peter not not life and godliness it just says but but it says in 2 Peter chapter 1:3 his Divine pow has granted us everything that pertains to life and godliness and man if we just knew and it’s such a shame that Peter is the only

Book in the Bible and and and it doesn’t tell us where to find the rest of that information you know thanks a lot Peter but we have we have all these books that Peter says in in these books um is everything that pertains to life and

Godliness and Dr godre is saying I I don’t know I don’t know where do we find this this great source of everything that pertains to life and godliness and and Dr garer you call yourself a theologian I think it’s pathetic all right I want Joel came prepared with

Some visual demonstrations if if you’re ready for that now Joel because this is going to kind of bring us into a little bit point 4 been ready all morning okay so you know if you listen again if you kind of come in like an alien and come

And sit in Dr goff’s class you have no idea what’s going on you’re like okay these Christian nationalists out there are these people that are angry and violent and then uh you know we’ve had how many years of Christianity and up to this point Christians haven’t really

Thought about what is a sin and a crime I mean that’s the impression you’d get if you didn’t have other context you’d like be like if you believed what he said you’d be like all right I got to watch out for those Christian nationalists and Christians have have

Not given much thought at all to what should be a sin and a crime um which is going to be ironic I think we’ll bring up here that do someone like Dr Godfrey would say that but go ahead with your demonstration yeah say do we do we need

To think about this like no one’s ever thought about this sin in a crime before how how should we govern what do we I thought that was intriguing what do we ask the state to do us us Christians like you say Luke hat in hand um can you

Please I don’t know criminalize X Y and Z okay get lost they’ll tell us anyway so I I I came indulge me here for a minute I I I came here with some educational material for anyone who thinks like Godfrey like Dr Godfrey that we haven’t thought of these things before uh number

One I’ve got like 10 of these uh got in politics edited by Gary Scott Smith this is I I read this like 30 years ago and it turned me into a theonomist it’s four views of the Reformation of civil government and they’re dealing with these exact questions that Dr godfre

Says we need to start thinking about if you don’t want to become a theonomous don’t read this book definitely don’t read this book The the sound doctrine of theocracy by my son and fellow panelist here Luke Saint because es especially the introduction both of these books present

God’s law as the solution which Godfree rejects James Jordan the law and the Covenant deals with the same kinds of things Ken Gentry covenantal the anomy deals with these questions how should we then govern which God we need to start that’s my thing we need to start DR

Godfrey many have already started Greg bonson theonomy in Christian ethics nice thick book we’ve already started maybe maybe he’s never heard of that book yeah yeah yeah apparently he has uh this I mean I I know from what I’ve heard Dr Godfrey made him wrong you’re a hater of

Theonomy um Paul on the other hand says uh he loves theonomy well wait a minute what am I talking about Paul loves theonomy uh well yeah um kind of he says uh Romans 7:22 for I Delight in the law of God after the inward man theonomy is

The law of God Paul Paul’s saying I de Delight in theonomy now maybe you say well his his interpretation is different from yours okay but Paul delighted in the law of God but I’m not finished yet while you’re getting those I I was being a bit I guess sarcastic do Dr

Gaffrey definitely knows that book by bonson in fact he wrote a response to it but we’ll come back to that later indeed he did yeah he he edit a response to that book which tells us why he’s so confused now about we need to start thinking about these things well yeah

You’ve rejected those who have started started thinking about these things God in government by uh Greg uh by um Gary dear again an old book that’s been around for a while all right here we go law and Society Volume Two by RJ Rush duny applying the Ten Commandments to all of

Life we have from Pierre vay um a reformer contemporary of John Calvin yeah have french guy um exposition of the Ten Commandments volume one and two exposition of the first and second tables of the law okay here’s volume one this is you know I mean for for for those who

Believe we haven’t started yet thinking all right we have some more um here here’s a book by Benjamin Merkel um talks about um talk talks about um King Alfred King Alfred called the um father of the common law who wrote excuse me a millennium a or a millennia

Ago what’s one Millennia right it’s a way Millen a millennium ago that um that God’s law applied to his realm King Alfred thought about this a thousand years ago um and and this is called the White Horse King but you need to explore Dr Godfrey um King Arthur a

Thousand years ago Al yeah King Alfred yeah we need to start it’s been started how about this God is just a div a defense of the Old Testament civil laws by Steve halbrook there’s there’s that and oh the book that made your world by Vel mangaa an Indian who who who looked

Around and said you know here in India we’re still I mean 3,000 years as backward as we ever what what’s with the west where they where they have cars and air conditioning and so forth ah the difference must be the Bible so he looked into it um anyway okay I’m out okay here’s

Here’s you know this is for those my little stack here this is just a um uh the beginning that’s an intro yeah yeah if you’re listening you can’t see it it’s 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 books that Joel could fit in his suitcase and

I added a couple more yeah yeah when we got here so so yeah yeah so uh we don’t need to start we need to explore what other people have already done yeah we need to start exploring we Godfrey wants to I guess reinvent the wheel here especially the Patriarchs the prophets

And the apostles yeah not a bad place to start Luke I know you have to leave soon so I want to give you a final opportunity um anything you want to add to this this and then when you leave we’ll talk a little bit about more moving forward but anything else you

Want to add to um that that that comment there by Dr Godfrey that you know we we need to start thinking about this for 100 you know we haven’t we haven’t had to think about this before 100 years ago is just whatever the church says Church

Law state law it was a bit confusing to me but but you know we got we got to start thinking about this now and and there’s Dr Godfrey who again edited the response and what was it called theonomy a a reformed response reformed response and then bonson others responded

Critique it’s just strange to me that there’s you know all this talk of sphere sovereignty and there’s not even a tip of the cap to the theonomist like not even like you know we need to think about this and by the way you know I I did oppose those men who were really

Thinking about this and and maybe there’s something there that that that is important and we can go back to and look at and no it’s kind of like well we got to start thinking about this and we can’t what they did doesn’t count so now I have to start thinking about this

Luke uh again the The Jig Is up for me when he still takes republicanism seriously in back Republican in any way shapee or I just can’t believe he said that well he’s he’s in California so that’s like super radical out there to say you’re Republican oh man they’re cutting edge

There boy but your your concern with that is is is these Republican leaders cuz when you say you know these Republican Wicked people I mean there are people that are register Republican but you’re talking about the polit the politicians who are putting forward statism under the banner of republicanism but anything

Else you want to add he he he I mean I it appears to me that he he does believe in sphere sovereignty um but from the presentation that I sent to you that he did um the last year on um statism and socialism right which was a very milk

Toast um uh presentation on statism socialism he goes back to sphere sovereignty of two Kingdom sphere sovereignty which means the state is over here by itself it doesn’t need any insight from the Scriptures it doesn’t need any insight from the Bible it doesn’t need to do biblical law it has

Its own sphere sovereignty completely separate from yeah and maybe if there’s Christians in there maybe that’s a good thing maybe not I don’t know they might coer people they had a bad history with that so I don’t know maybe we just leave it to the pagans but the rest of us you

Know Christ is King of the church um and and his his his nod to republicanism I think is a dead giveaway you know you’re still thinking about things in terms of I’m a Republican and anyone in my opinion who who who still takes their identity as a republican remotely

Seriously is not trustworthy in talking about the solution um to to to the sins and the crimes of a Nation just not trustworthy at all I don’t trust you if you even remotely take your republicanism seriously that is um uh like like saying I I you know I I still believe in the

Pope and you want to help the uh you want to help the um the reformers um you know but you still believe in the pope yeah let’s talk about what’s really going on here here’s what’s really happening the the country is burning down and the PE people that oppos

Theonomy they got away with for for a while you know it was calm you know we we you know no one’s breaking to my house and burning down my my business didn’t know what a man and a woman was yeah we we we understood all that and the theonomous were these idiots that

Thought that God’s law meant something well now it’s becoming obvious to everyone and these guys are like go Dr Godfrey know it they know it that they have not had a solution this whole time and they know that Christian nationalism theonomy is becoming a whole lot more attractive because these people had

Answers Dr Godfrey you squelch the answers and what this entire attempt is I’m willing to say is an attempt to continue to squelch the answers by acting as if no one has ever had them that’s what’s really going on here with Dr Godfrey are you saying that there should

Be a call to repentance to all of the two kingdoms guys who have rejected theonomy for the past 40 years they’ve re at a minimum they’ve rejected the kingship of Christ over the Civil sphere yeah something to repent of absolutely absolutely yes and again through throughout the end of his

Presentation never once in this entire time did he stand on the authority of the scriptures we’re talking about an entire nation and the sins of a Nation the Bible talks about this a lot the Bible tells us how to be a nation before

It tells us how to be a church and and I think that is something important there it talks about how to be a Christian Nation and it gives us recommendations and laws uh it doesn’t stop at laws I mean at recommendations and it gives us

Laws and then it in Proverbs it gives us recommendations and uh it gives us principles it gives us wisdom and is we have this authoritative source of how to have a Godly and righteous and just Nation um blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord and never once in this

Entire discussion did Dr gy quote from that never once did he did he lay out what a desirable Nation looks like the the kind of government you know these people are looking for real answers we need real answers but Dad like you said um you either making the scriptures more

Clear or you’re making them more uh foggy and and from this we we we didn’t even get to the scriptures so it’s hard for me to say whether they became more clear more fire because we didn’t even quote them um but we definitely the answers to our problems definitely

Became more foggy because he never once pointed those people even in the Q&A never once pointed them back to the authority of scripture thus sayith the Lord here’s my recommendation go to the Bible here’s what it says it the Bible was never viewed this is my biggest

Problem with the entire thing the Bible was never viewed as the solution ever all of these problems these huge problems homosexuality and abortion which he kind of barely talks about uh and and divorce and he never once goes to the Bible as a solution he goes to Abraham Kyper but he

And he quotes Abraham Kyper more than he quotes the scriptures how could you possibly call yourself a his torian and a theologian and an authority on these matters when you don’t stand alone on the word of God my recommendation Dr Godfrey go into a closet open your Bible

And start singing the b i b e yes that’s the book for me I Stand Alone on the word of Abraham Kyper the b i e relearn that song and sing it to yourself again please because you are in serious need of understanding the foundation for all

Of life and that is the scriptures and after that please accept Joel Saint’s invitation for moderated formal debate absolutely please I would love to see that actually thanks Lads all right Luke thanks Luke have a great day we’ll see you next time all right a few more minutes

Gentlemen um yeah I think that a great point with your demonstration there Joel because you you would get the impression from that that this has not been thought about those theists who were arguing say hey we we we’re seeing where nation is going I mean and he talks about how Kyer

Saw where things were going yeah sure granted so I mean Rush Dy bonson they said hey if this is where our nation is going as we continue to abandon God’s law here’s what the Bible says let’s work through these things what should be a crime what

Shouldn’t man if people would if they if they knew the history of that they would see how bogus that statement was by Dr Godfrey It’s not to say that that these guys have it all figured out but that’s not what he’s arguing saying we never had to Think Through the right I could

Have accepted says well some people have and I don’t agree with him I could accept that right but to act like nobody’s ever even dealt with this before no I you are either you’re either that historically foolish or you’re disingenuous that’s being kind he edited the book He’s

Edited the book against theonomy he knows so it’s so it’s kind of like do we know what really want and and his response and this is me it’s like well you know we haven’t really thought about this you know it would have been really ni if Christians have been spending the

Last 60 years wrestling through this but then we might have volumes and volumes of books and debates and conferences about how the civil government ought to operate and what sin should be crimes based on the Bible but that just didn’t happen and that it’s like that’s exactly

What has been happening and people like you Dr Godfrey It’s not just that you disagree with the position I mean this shows me it’s almost like you’re trying to silence it and it reminds me it reminds me of what and I’m just going to

Bring this up I know I bring it up a lot it reminds me of the whole thing like we’re we’re going to whitewash the past here and we’re going to change the narrative and and anybody who knows the story in the history of of bonson and Dr Godfrey knows that these

Very points have been wrestled with over and over and over again uh that’s only a sampling of the books that are out there but now this this is being presented as if we haven’t thought about it before um I I have a quote from Godfrey I I just

Want to share this um this was from 2020 well actually maybe I won’t do it but the point is uh with with what happen with what’s happening with Co now is people are saying oh you know if you’re pointing out what actually happened back then if you’re pointing out that John

MacArthur kept his church closed for for months and I and this is my book’s going to be coming out soon and I found some more information where mathur says in in June in July the state said we can’t meet so we’re not going to meet and MacArthur is now presented as this hero

And I’ve had pastors tell me don’t don’t share that information don’t tell people what actually happened with MTH Arthur because that’s not what the church needs right now the church doesn’t need the truth basically what what they need is is this example um they need they need a

Cheerleader it it’s like uh it’s like Harvey Dent and and Batman MacArthur is not not I don’t know we need this picture of MacArthur because that’s what we need to motivate us and I and and silly old me I just think well the TR the truth is really more important than

Than these fictional things and that Godfrey’s presentation of of the past 60 years roughly was not a true picture we have thought about these things and and it would have been helpful for his audience to say you know what we’ve thought about these things extensively and I’ve disagreed strenuously against

People who would say that the Bible tells us that we the Bible gives us the framework for what is a sin in a crime then he could have been like well since the Bible doesn’t do it where do we look and I think that’s Luke’s main point like Dr

Godfrey I guess he didn’t want he didn’t that’s why he can’t bring up God’s law I think because if he brings it up then he’s going to be like well I’ve rejected the theonomist who said that the Bible tells us what is a sin and a crime so

Now my I don’t know what the answer is and I guess that’s where he is being honest he doesn’t know well and that I think that that’s very telling because that’s where what you’re left with if you reject the idea just completely out of hand that we need to still seek to

Apply God’s word including God’s law in all of life all the Spheres of life then you’re left in that position that Dr Godfrey’s in that everybody can clearly see if they listen to the lectures and you’re left just kind of try to figure it out down here we don’t really know

What exactly we’re supposed to do um and I think that’s that’s the reason why this discussion is really important for those people at uh the church where this was hosted and people who are following men like Dr Godfrey they need to realize that they’re not going to really have

Very good answers on how to apply our Christianity to all of life because they have just rejected it out of hand right at the beginning and you know and in your your list of books here Joel there’s there’s some others that are coming to my mind you know like Lex Rex

You know and I’m thinking like way back now you have V there you have yeah so now the opponents of theonomy would say well they weren’t theists that didn’t even exist back then well I mean you could say the apostles weren’t trinitarian in the I Creed way if you’re

Going to have that argument you know well that’s because it wasn’t dealt with historically yet and refined and and it didn’t come up with a label you know we didn’t have the label Christian nationalist in the past but I would argue there have been a lot of Christian

Nationalists over the years you know the um I would say at least at the beginning of our nation it was Christian nationalism you know so it’s just okay let’s take the label and let’s go back and see okay where would these people have fallen they started to kind of of

Think through these things centuries ago and to your point uh with Benjamin merkel’s book there uh Alfred the Great more than centuries ago was thinking through how to do this properly we’re refining it now and that’s why these discussions are so important Joel anything you want to add to that few

Things um real quickly Luke made the point earlier on these two Commandments love the Lord your God and your neighbor yourself hang all the law and the prophets there’s another comment about the law and the Propet prophets and this is Jesus in Matthew 7:12 excuse me I remember Obama saying

Well all all um all religions have a have the Golden Rule right so now now we got the natural law thing going on here no they don’t according to Christ therefore all things whatsoever you ye would that men should do to you there’s our Golden Rule Do ye even so to them

And then Christ says for this is the law and the prophets if you don’t have the law and the prophets which w- which Godfrey has rejected quite frankly practically at least theoretically if not practically then you don’t have the Golden Rule you just don’t have it in addition

I Josiah or Jehoshaphat he wanted to bring Justice to the children of Israel 2 Chronicles 19:6 and he said to the judges take heed what you do for you judge not for man but for the Lord who is with you in judgment wherefore let now the fear of the Lord be upon you

Take heed and do it for there’s no iniquity with the Lord for our God nor respect of persons nor taking of gifts and what did he and what did he do he says he charges him saying thus shall you do in the fear of the Lord faithfully and with a perfect heart and

Whatsoever call CA shall come to you you what you you must give Justice here is Justice with Jehosaphat any different with from Justice to H have we like progressed do we not need the law of God for justice anymore uh apparently we don’t but but one other verse here

Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees Christ talking to scribes and Pharisees Hypocrites and we we get charged with the Old Testament law and so forth well uh don’t let that charge start with us you might want to charge Jesus with the same charge that you’re about the law

Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees Hypocrites for you pay tithe of Mitten and Anison cing and have omitted the weightier matters of the law weightier matters of and what would they be judgment Mercy faith if you give up God’s law Dr Godfrey you have given up according to

Christ judgment mercy and Faith these ought you have to have done and not to leave the other undone and then the next verse clarifies you blind guides would strain at a net and swallow a camel here we are straining at God’s law I don’t know about

That oh let’s see what we want to do let’s open up for for what we want talk about swallowing a camel have have you heard of of like the Federal Register all the laws that are written law upon law upon law Meanwhile we’re straining

At the law of God yeah okay so I want to move into our fourth and final point I think we’ve kind of already started it but so Dr Godfrey presents the hyperian solution which I think is kind of just a real General presentation hey we don’t want to stay church but the the

Government still needs to honor Christ and we’re like okay all right and then he’s like and then he kind of ends with that’s all I got I wish I could leave you on a more optim optimistic note he’s like we haven’t thought about this before uh we need to start and that’s

All I have and I don’t think that’s a misrepresentation of what he said CU he’s like look you know I don’t have the answer I don’t know uh you know I don’t I’m not going to make a statement about uh you know homosexual Mirage okay uh so

Again not even a tip of the cap to the theonomist so Point number four the Practical consequences of Godfrey’s rhetoric and how to respond to the end of Christendom in in Godfrey’s mind so I think we’ve addressed a lot of this but maybe in this final part I want to try to maybe

Bring together this two Kingdom Theology and then the implications it has I think we’ve tried to answer well well Dr Godfrey’s question is how do we know what should be a sin and a crime again it’s not what we want it’s what the Bible says and we’ve talked about that

Before on the show and we’re not going to get into it all those details now but the point is those books are out there and we would love to have those discussions and we we do often on the show okay two Kingdom the olog so this

Was I found this article from Dr Godfrey from 2008 uh this is entitled Kingdom and kingdoms from Westminster Seminary California and he makes the argument here that you know reformed theologians they’ve recognized that Christ as king of all but then they also have a distinction between the kingdom

Of the church and the world and Calvin had this idea and he’s like it’s important for us to understand you know the Christ is overall but yet these distinctions are helpful and then and then he actually says that Kyper he talks about Kyper and here too he says

Kyper spheres are basically kingdoms so you have the kingdom of the church you have the kingdom of the state I guess you have the kingdom of the family um I don’t know if Kyper said that or not I mean he he says Kyper said spheres but basically he characterized the kingdoms

As spheres okay but here’s here’s what I want to read from this uh the spiritual Kingdom as this is Godfrey the spiritual Kingdom as the church was directly accountable to Christ Alone who was king of the church and completely regulated the life of the church its Doctrine

Worship and offices by the Bible okay then the next sentence the temporal Kingdom as the state owed obedience to Christ but not through or under the church okay the state had its own Constitution adopted largely according to human wisdom the Bible should guide the state but did not exhaustively reveal the

Answers to all political decisions that right there is the best two Kingdom theology can give you cuz what he’s saying is in in the church I mean it it’s interesting even in the sentence Christ is King of the church but when it comes to the state the states owed

Obedience so he wouldn’t even say there Christ is also King of the Nations and he says yeah there there’s this vague general idea that the state should honor Christ but the Bible does not really give us the the kind of direction for that that it gives us for

The church and I think that’s the most charitable Fair understanding of two Kingdom theology is that there’s these distinct spheres which we agree with and the church has more direct accountability to Christ as king than the civil government does do you think that’s a fair representation of of two Kingdom

Theology as Dr Godfrey because that ends up being the concern because then once you say the the church is beholden to the Bible strictly the State over here we’re not going to say that we can use human wisdom and this is where you get into then natural law and all these

Things well he said specifically it doesn’t give an exhaustive exclanation but he doesn’t say that about the church either so I’m I’m reading between the lines here because it says it says he completely regulates the life of the church it’s Doctrine worship and offices MH by the Bible now what about what

About the family you know I don’t think anybody even the most um right of principle proponent would say that the Bible exhaustively gives you every detail you know you have the different the circumstances and these things but but they would say and Godfrey would agree that everything has to come from the

Bible and it needs to be deduced from scripture and logical conclusions from scripture in the church well even even somebody who which I I would say that I subscribe to the regulative principle in worship but we’re seeking to say how does that then extend into the family

And into the public sphere and you know if you’re saying in and and even the regulative principle proponents in worship have this distinction it’s in Westminster Confession the distinction between circumstances and elements because yeah everybody recognizes that the Bible is not a manual on um what you

Know like times and seasons and and how to do carpentry and you know anything you can think of it’s not it’s not like an owner’s manual in that sense everybody would agree with that even the theonomist would agree with that that you do have to deduce like you said

Certain things from the light of nature but the idea is scripture gives us some specifics and some principles of how these things are supposed to be figured out but but the the thing with two Kingdom theology I would argue is that it posits there’s a different way that

That that the that the church relates to the Bible that the and that the civil government and he would say that the civil government doesn’t have to be regulated by the Bible right because I’m try to put words his language is the church is directly accountable to Christ Alone who

Was king of the church but the state has its own Constitution adopted largely according to human wisdom the Bible should guide the state but it’s not the same thing and so that’s how is it supposed to guide the state though well that that’s the nice thing generically two Kingdom

Theology that that’s what you get Christ really is not King here his word has no Authority here let let let’s tell it like it is that’s what they’re saying basically that’s that’s the bottom line and that’s my point because the way they’ll they they’ll work around that is

Say well yes this is what Christ said this is what the Bible says about about civil government but this is Christ is not King of the of the nations in the same way that he is King of the church and that’s the way they cuz they would reject they’ll say

Oh no we we believe that Christ is King of all yeah doctrinal statement yeah absolutely but there’s one king but but the difference is his kingship is is recognized differently and that’s where the theists and we would say no this is this is the problem of two Kingdom

Theology because then what it does is it opens the door for man-made wisdom see I I want to do a skit another skit I I you know I think we talked before about the skit I did one time before uh with John the Baptist as a two two Kingdom

Theologian right where he comes to Herod little little skit right he comes to Herod and says you can’t have your your brother’s wife and Herod lectures John on two Kingdom Theology and he says you know you know John that’s really nice that you’re U your king says you

Shouldn’t do but but I’m King here and I can have whatever what whatever wife I I I want um John the Baptist was definitely no two Kingdom Theologian he thought he he thought bless his dear clueless Heart John the Baptist that God told Herod that he can’t have his

Brother’s wife and speaking of Herod we should have had two Kingdom theologians back when Christ was born because they could have explained to Herod you really don’t have to kill all the kids because Jesus is not King Of You Herod it’s okay you can still go on

Being a wicked murderous man it’s okay but Herod apparently thought that this King being born was king of him mhm he thought that and so that’s why he had to kill kill all the and want to kill him because he knew he had a rival King but

A modern Theologian can say no no Herod no no no no no we this King just wants you to believe in him for for personal salvation and you can go on being a wicked murderous man but Herod got it so then you’re left with if you’re coming from Dr Godfrey’s perspective well Herod

Misunderstood why Jesus came and you’d also have to say that Caesar misunderstood what the early Christians were saying about Jesus right yeah should have just had the two Kingdom theologians to explain it could have been a more peaceful place well this is what he does in this article he

Says despite Calvin’s brilliant and critical distinction between the two kingdoms of Christ in most of protestant Europe the state and practice came more and more to dominate and subordinate the church so he’s he’s what he’s doing is saying look this is the states over here and yeah the

Bible guides them but not really as authoritatively it does in the church and then he’s like this is a brilliant distinction but then what happened was uh the state ended up uh swallowing up the church and he’s so he’s painting those those two kind of pictures like

These are these are our two options instead of the what I would what I think is the biblical option is that okay you have these different spheres but they are all beholden to Christ as king and that’s and that what Kyper was saying I mean that’s I mean what he saying there

Just doesn’t sound like karian at all well it’s just this is the Nuance part that I think people are are saying why are you guys making such a big deal about it and and and this this is why because when Dr Godfrey says well we

Don’t know what should be a sin and a crime and he says you know we haven’t thought about that well the people that have been thinking about that for decades and even centuries were the ones who who said okay the civil government has to obey Christ as king just like I

Do in my home just like you do as a pastor just like that Carpenter down the road does God in his word gives us his law and it applies to every area of life and we can look to his word for the authoritative answer on what Justice is

But with two Kingdom theology it by saying that Christ is not King in the same way in the Civil sphere it allows it opens the door for natural law and human wisdom to say well we we think what that’s why and Dr gy is being consistent with tuing theology because

He’s saying well what do we think what do we think should happen now what does the Bible say because Dr Godfrey would I I don’t think he would use that language when he’s talking about the church you know he’d be like what do we think you

Know we got to use human wisdom here uh you know Christ isn’t King of the church in the same way that he’s king of me as an individual but they did do that during 2020 what’s that in the church what do we think we should do during the

Pandemic all right you brought it up I have to read it here for Dr God for he said this in 2020 many Christians have expressed disappointment and frustration in the last few weeks about not being able to gather for wor because of the covid-19 crisis I am one of them he goes

On and says God is Sovereign over all things does disaster come to a city unless the Lord has done it so he is the one who has stopped our worship as the gathered Body of Christ on the Lord’s day I will never get over that Dr

Godfrey is saying God is the one who shut down the churches complete I mean talk about historical what about all the churches that didn’t shut down so God shut down your church but not the other ones and that was an abuse of the the sovereignty

Of God to say well you know the reason we shut down God’s Sovereign and and I’ve written about it other places that’s like saying the guy who cheats on his wife well the reason that I commit adultery was God is Sovereign over all things so you know so just to me that

Was one of the worst things I’ve ever heard Dr Godfrey say that the reason the church is shut down was because of God’s sovereignty and what all those Chinese people worshiping in secret the state says they can’t worship so God shut them down so stay home don’t worship yeah so

To your point Travis yeah they said okay well we got to figure this out you know we got to use human wisdom okay so that that’s that’s two Kingdom theology that the Civil sphere it it Christ exercises his lordship in a different way he hasn’t given direction

To the civil government in the Bible and therefore you just got these vague principles and it’s pretty much an open door so so what’s what’s the um what what are the uh implications of this okay and the impact of this talk and I think we’ve talked about a lot of them

Especially as it relates to the Civil realm I think sometimes people would label they’ll label you an angry Christian nationalists and they’ll say oh oh you want to you want the you want to change the politics first and and you want to go out there and and make this

Top down thing I think that’s very ironic critique of someone like you or me or maybe even Travis and Luke that like we we want we want a top down approach when a lot of the guys that I’ve interacted with over the past in the past about theonomy they’re the ones

Arguing very hard for Donald Trump and I’m sitting here saying okay well this is not really a Biblical law solution and yet they’re saying that we are the ones that want to go in there and just change the politics and we’re we’re out there trying to to to argue and be

Persuasive with people and say look this is what God’s law word says you have to follow God’s law right John the Baptist was in the position to to call upon Herod to repent and follow God’s law and that’s what we’re doing and I think it’s it’s a caricature to say well you guys

Want you guys want to change of politics first which then strikes me because when we go out and do like the the Outreach to the pride festival we have all these reformed churches in Lancaster County that aren’t that interested in going out and engaging the culture and I and I I I

Can’t help but think maybe there’s part of this mindset behind that the two Kingdom theology I think it’s pervasive so I want to talk just briefly because we’re running out of time H how that might be might work its way out into into the very practical and even

Something like this that we have in Lancaster County we have this rise of paganism of sodomy celebrations of transgenderism and for the past two years you and I’ve been out there in Travis you joined us this past year and we’re not out there saying hey we need

To change all these laws right now we’re out there calling on people publicly to repent of their sin that they’re celebrating in public and I can’t but help but think that this mindset even though to me it’s like well this is just evangelism we’re out here calling on people to repent but that’s

Outside the walls of the church and now it’s a political thing you know sodomy and transgenderism has become a political thing and so people say well I want to get involved in politics so if you guys go out there as a church and you stand opposed to public sin you’re

Making a political statement and the church’s job is not to do that that’s a different sphere and so I I I I would like to hear someone argue and say no no no this has nothing to do with that I guess I prefer to see it I prefer to see

All these reformed churches that want to say well you guys are too focused on the political realm then join us in opposing the celebration of sin in Lancaster County uh so anything you want to add Travis to to the Imp the ramifications of this two Kingdom theology as it works

Itself out in the life of the church and just how people think about their role as Christians in the in the culture yeah I I have a lot of things I’d like to say but I know we have short amount of time um well go ahead well I’m

I’m trying to think of you know for for our listeners uh who may be in a situation where they think uh that sounds like the kind of stuff I’m hearing all the time uh this this presentation that Dr Godfrey did that’s basically what our church is saying and

And I think in Lancaster County it’s not even going to necessarily be that brand of it it’s going to be more of the menite or independent Bible Church type mentality where uh even though they wouldn’t be reformed they wouldn’t uh come from Dr Godfrey’s P particular perspective the implications of it are

Basically the same I think two Kingdom theology ends up being pism which is really big in lanter County you know with the men and aamish community and others um so I think that for listeners they need to really consider and think through well where does my view of the

Bible actually lead does it lead to this uh and if so what should I be doing about it and I would say well you need to you need to start reading maybe start reading some of these books that Joel has here um and and just kind of wrestle

Through how am I reading scripture how am I interpreting scripture what is my interpretive lens that may be blinding me to something that I’m missing here um so yeah I would argue start start reading some of those books uh Joel what would be the first book that you would

Say for someone who doesn’t come from a theonomic perspective sure um two books um well obviously have to start reading one but Goden politics again was for these questions that we’re talking about they wrestle they wrestle with them directly they wrestle with the the various views of how to wrestle with the

And I got to tell you something um theonomy sweeps the floor I mean it it it dominates the entire conversation in fact even in the end of it that book has four different views right four different views presents all the views those four Yeah by by proponents of the

Views so it’s not even you know no straw man’s there exactly they’re presenting yeah straw straw people this is 20203 straw people yeah that’s I’ve heard that we have to build snow snow people this winter can’t be snowmen anymore oh what a mess anyway um I I really encourage

It’s not a real super thick book but it’s the people that believe their own positions doing the presentations I find I found it completely persuasive and I was um basically dispensational Armenian when I first read this book I was in my my way towards reform theology second book The Sound doctrine of

Theocracy you know you read this book The Sound doctrine of the theocracy and you’ll find yourself echoing Psalm 119 which you know ju just can’t say enough wonderful things about the law word of God so the sound Doctrine theocracy by Luke Saint I recommend that book and

Secondly the god in politics by Gary Scott Smith read those and weep for those who hate God’s law yeah that’s what D it might be hard for some of our listeners who may not be coming from a a reformed or calvinistic perspective to really like it’s going to

Be a complete framework dissonance for them um so I mean I would say well you need to really wrestle through uh understanding scripture from the the reformed calvinistic perspective because that is the biblical view well they they’re the ones that have wrestled with it you don’t really see a whole lot of

People from The Armenian persuasion actually wrestling with these things so I I would say this if you’re still in the Armenian persuasion at least give a tip of the hat to the people who have wrestled with us yeah now one one of my main concerns here when we talk about

Practical consequences especially as it relates to Lancaster County as I opened this show saying you know that’s that’s why this is so important to us because we see what’s happening in our County and this presentation by Dr Godfrey was made in lanaster county and we see and I

Know Joel and myself and and you as well Travis we’ve interacted with a lot of different Church a lot of reformed churches in the county and they’ve largely remained I would say dis engaged in the advance of paganism and evil in our County now they’ll say they’re they’re combating it within the church

And that that goes back to the two Kingdom theology um and then I think what people will say well you guys out there being very public you know Joel going to the County Commissioners and calling on them to repent and i’ I’ve joined you in doing that or or the three

Of the four of us when Luke was going out to to litz and opposing the sodomy Fest and not just opposing it but also calling on people to to find Salvation in Christ you guys doing that that that’s that’s a polit those are political things that’s not really where

The mission of the Christian is because Christ is really ruling in the church and that is where we need to focus our energy and so the the con the concern for me with the Practical consequence of this is that okay if that’s your mindset well now how do you respond when there

Is a sodomy Fest and do you believe like let’s say you have in the church uh you have the the infiltration of homosexuality you know Dr Godfrey and I think all of us would agree if you see that creeping into your church you got to deal with it if you see your church

Elders who starting to embrace and say you know homosexuality is not a sin you you wouldn’t say well you know what that’s not going to impact the church I mean that’s just one guy sin you know we don’t need to worry about that no we would say we we have to deal

With this sin because God is going to to judge the church uh there’s going to be consequences for a celebration of sin and we need to deal with this but yet when you even in your family let’s say you you all of us are our fathers here

Uh Joel you’re a grandfather let’s say there’s something that happens in our home and we we realize that our children have gotten into into theft or or something else something something uh they’re they’re watching the wrong stuff and we say well I’m not I don’t have to

Worry about that that’s not going to impact the rest of the family well yes it is and I think Dr Godfrey and and most of reformed Christians would agree well you got to deal with that problem in the family because it’s going to spread and cause problems but then when

It when it comes to the to the county it’s a different mindset it’s like well yeah out there they are celebrating sodomy on the street there are people there uh with their breasts hacked off showing the world they’re they’re teaching kids that transgenderism is acceptable uh and they might say yeah

That’s not a good thing but that doesn’t really impact us you know we have our church and we have our family and and that’s that’s where Christ is ruling and and what happens out there if you go out there get involved in that you’re just getting involved in politics it’s

Pointless I mean then you got the the myth of Decline and and myth of failure that brings comes into this but why go out there and do it and that’s that’s to me why this is so important because if you if you have this mindset that Christ’s kingship and his lordship is

Different somehow over the society then you’re not going to take that you’re not going to take seriously an affront to his to his lordship and when you see the apostles go out they’re saying look there’s another King Jesus and he demands all of you to repent and there

Are consequences if you don’t and we see that throughout history there are societal consequences so you know when you go out to the County Commissioners when we go out to to uh oppose these sodomy fests we are saying Christ is Lord here and you need to repent and

Turn from your sin so that that is is what really concerns me that that reformed churches like this and and I hope zelton Reich Reformed Church will join us if the unfortunately I think there’s going to be another multiple sodomy fests in Lancaster County and I

Hope they would join us at that and say look we might not be agreed on all the details here but we recognize that that Christ is King of this County and what is happening here is a direct affront to his lordship and it will not go un it will not go without

Consequence but but if you Embrace two Kingdom theology you have an out you can say you guys over you’re just angry about what’s happening in the county Christ is still King of the church don’t worry about what happens in Lancaster County it can go to hell in a hand

Basket um and and that’s my concern with Dr Godfrey you know oh all this tyranny in the state he talks about State tyranny and then he says that God is the one who shut down the church that’s you mentioned earlier throwing the game I mean that to me is what this is it’s

Like hey things are getting worse and worse uh but Christ is King of the church and you know what yeah it’s bad out there and we’re not going to do anything to stop it and you guys that are getting involved you’re just angry Christian nationalists so that is why I

Think this is so important uh you know where where are the reformed churches in Lancaster County where where is their opposition to public sin I would say it’s largely absent because of this two Kingdom theology it’s not our job well and I would I would say uh you get a I’m

Sure you get a lot of people who push back on on you guys and and your method of how you uh try to seek to influence the culture right uh going out to these Pride fests and and going to the abortion Mills and all that kind of stuff and confronting people with their

Sin and calling them to repentance and faith in Christ uh there’s probably a lot of people who say uh that’s I don’t think that’s the right approach but I’ve heard Joel say this before well I like my way of doing it better than your way

Of not doing it and I think that’s a really good reply and I would say I would just challenge anyone who uh maybe is of that perspective like well I’m not going out to The Pride Fest and trying to evangelize people there that’s just not my okay well it’s not that everybody

Has to go out there we don’t need every Church in Lancaster County to be out there I would like every Pastor out there mean that would be great yes every P would be a good start but my point is yeah and I think that there is a place

Take one day out of the year I think there is a place for it to be said that you know not every uh Jew during John the Baptist’s time was responsible to call John the Baptist to repent publicly like John the or sorry yeah um and and

There’s a place for that to be said yes but there were other leaders in Israel who should have joined John the Baptist in doing it and and in supporting him uh and so I would say are you in the fight in some way you know just think through

For yourself am I actually seeking to bring God’s word to bear in all of life in the ways that I can as an individual and for people who are in leadership in the county whether it’s political leadership or in the church or in some other uh Civic institution or something

Um are you stepping up to the plate and how are you being involved and are you supporting people who are doing it I think those are the the questions really for each person to think through and say how can I be helping in the cause of ending abortion you know uh some people

That’s going to mean that they’re they’re going to help out with you know an adoptions or they’re going to go volunteer at a at a um what do you call it crisis a Crisis Pregnancy Center you know like a line or something like that but everybody should be involved in some

Ways you you know let let me be a little little blunt here if I if I have not yet been up to this point What’s Happening Here is what for the people say well you know it’s okay for them to celebrate an Abomination against God let them go what they’re really

Saying is it hasn’t reached my door yet that’s what they’re really saying um and I to them I want to say thank you lot lot didn’t have a problem with it until it reached his door and even then we saw the compromise because he was willing to give his away his family at

That point you know why because he had already given away his family what protection do you have for your own family if you’ve already given away the law word of God so lot was cool he was he was a member he sat in the gates and what that this what these people are

Saying hey you know what hey you know what they can go just keep it in the park just keep in lit its Park I’m okay because it’s not my house it’s not my church bro it’s coming to your house it’s coming to your church lot will inform you right that’s what they’re

Really saying I’m okay with it it hasn’t affected me directly yet it has and it will you must be like David run towards the battle right now you’re running away from it and you know what we talk about Satan running around like a roaring lion you know what you know what cats big

Cats especially lions like they love those who are run they they love to chase down animals that are running away do you ever see what happens when the animal turns around once to fight them they stop and they reconsider but that’s us we’re running away from the battle

Yeah that’s and that’s why my focus primarily is first towards the pastors of these reformed churches in laner County absolutely and one of the reasons that that they’ll say well well Joel you’re going out and speaking to the county and can you imagine the the witness of 100 reformed pastors going to

The County Commissioners and saying hey you need to stop governing in this way that goes contrary to the Bible but you see the problem is these pastors aren’t going to do it because they’re going to say Joel what are you doing out there going to the County Commissioners Christ

Is King of the church he’s not King of the county you have no grounds to go to the county commissioner and say you need to obey Christ and follow the Bible moreover and this is something you brought up that I just real thought about when you said that if if you can’t

Distinguish between who’s violent and nonviolent you’re going to flip that around well I think that’s what’s happen happing here uh we are we have not used coercion in this County you and I and you more so than me go to the County Commissioners and we call on them to

Repent and follow God’s law we go out to the pride fests and we don’t go in there and and you know punch people in the face and be like hey stop stop doing this no we we call on them with the testimony of scripture to turn from

Their sin but how is that being labeled I can’t help but think it’s being labeled as coercive oh you guys want to go out there and you want to force these people to stop celebrating sodomy well I would like a response from the county I think if 500 people went out there there

Would be maybe some pressure for uh lit at Springs Park not to do this we almost got the thing shut down uh last year so what’s happening here is we are being persuasive trying to we don’t do it perfectly and we are in you know in a

Subtle way being labeled as coercive oh you guys up here you’re angry and you’re trying to force this and we believe in Persuasion uh and then to your point uh Travis what happens uh you know who is the one that was forcing people to not go to shut down the church the pastors

That were saying we’re shutting down Church the pastors that required masks the pastors that required social distancing they were being coercive and yet they’re labeling us coercive so when you don’t Define these things you are never going to switch it and we are going to be labeled the

Coercive ones and then the ones that are that are you know cow Towing to the state and even aiding and abetting them in their coer they they’re going to label themselves to persuasive persuasive ones it’s a bait and switch well is is God’s law the law of

Liberty yes you know that’s the it’s the uh it’s kind of the the upside down type of thing that you know to be last is to be first that mentality to actually be submissive to God’s law to his word to obey him is freedom and to be autonomous or to be uh trying

To do things by our own wisdom and our own power is actually slavery yeah I I would again another another skit I’d like to do is the two Kingdom Theologian um presiding over writing into the Liberty Bell Liberty Bell a verse from Leviticus what are we thinking Leviticus

Are you kidding me that’s the one B that’s the one book that could just drop right out of the Bible no one would miss it oh except Christ quoted it uh when he talked about what the law requires right and of course his reference again and again Paul referencing the book of

Galatians the end of the law is love right but we have in our Liberty belt a national symbol a a statement from Leviticus now would your basic two Kingdom Theologian be standing back today arms folded shakeing a head of shake that oh no no no no no no we we’re

Mixing Church of State here I I I want to do the skit uh I’m not a good writer Chris you’re a better writer you can write that skit up for me get that skit all right we we have to wrap up we actually went longer than last time I

Thought it’ be shorter so my my final words would be and then I’ll give you both a chance to speak that uh Christendom if we understand it correctly a as Christ’s rule over all things and the influence of Christianity on the culture has not ended did not end

In 2015 it will never end in fact it will continue to expand because Christ and his kingdom Marches On that’s what we pray in the Lord’s Prayer your kingdom come your will be done in earth as it is in heaven so let’s pray that let’s mean it and let’s not give up on

This County and whatever County you’re in and and yeah it’s going to be a a a tough battle and that’s why we need something of of of men who will be willing to to fight and I’m not talking about physically although there is there is a time to defend your loved ones of

Course but who will fight and oppose the advance of paganism and will not give up and we might not see great Victory In Our Lifetime but if we if we give up and we say well it’s not our job to try to advance Christ’s Kingdom out there then

We can be guaranteed that we’re going to see failure and my plea with these reformed churches and these Pastors in Lancaster county is to say we are not going to surrender uh this County to the pagans they want it badly I mean we could talk about that another we can get really in

Depth and Lancaster stands up and um Jonathan Matthew smucker I mean they know what they want they want this County transformed into a socialistic hot bed and it would be a great trophy on their shelf that we got Lancaster County that that most conservative County in all of Pennsylvania and the

Great heritage of of of Christians and we conquered it and the reformed churches are sitting back and saying well no big deal you know as long as we still have our churches well to your point Joel they’re coming for them next yeah so yeah yeah ask the Chinese if they’re coming for your

Churches oh it’s it’s so it’s so it’s so maddening because it’s right in front of our faces it’s in the Bible and it’s in history and we still don’t want to get it and you know what I I well okay we been we this is your final word Joel

Okay my final word okay um two verses once again I want I want to go to Psalm 50 or two passages if if you will Psalm 50 and this has to do with the the the pastor still saying well they can do they can celebrate wickedness right next

Door to me it doesn’t matter to me Psalm 50 is really interesting because towards the end of it it says this but unto the wicked God says what hast thou to do to declare my statutes or what should that or or or that you should take my word covenant in your

Mouth seeing that you hate instruction cast my words behind you okay this sounds like what’s going on not officially but unofficially in our churches when you saw a thief you consented with him and has been a partaker with adulterers adultery at theft through tax ah we we don’t deal

With that that’s not the gospel okay all right you give your mouth to evil and your tongue frames deceit ah we don’t do that do we you sit and speak against your brother you slance your own Mother’s Son I want to talk about that brother thing for a moment because what

Happens is when we sit here and we say Hey you know do Dr Godfrey you’re you’re wrong people come back and say uh you shouldn’t speak about your brothers that way and yet the people that trash Christian nationalism you watch it they will they will flirt with the idea that

These people are Heretics and not even Christians this happens consistently okay so you’re they got the the slander on on the brother thing there verse 22 consider this that ye that forget God lest I tear you in pieces and there be none to deliver now that’s pretty stiff isn’t it what in the

World is God tearing people in pieces for you know what I want to say about that I want to say about this that until they’re willing to tear you in pieces apparently you still won’t get it like lot lot didn’t get it until they were willing to tear him in pieces so while

You think you’re safe letting these people go on with their abominable wickedness and murder and it is murder we got 60 million dead babies here God God is pretty much saying here think about about this before it gets to your door like it got to lot the other

Thing I want to say in my final thing here is shortest verse in or Psalm in the Bible please memorize it everybody if you haven’t already oh praise the Lord all ye nations Lord him all ye peoples for his merciful kindness is great toward us and the truth of the Lord

Endures forever in that short Psalm we’ve got the two objections that we always get the two Kingdom people come to us all the time oh praise the Lord all ye nations they always want to come out this is just for Israel no praise the Lord all ye nations Lord him all ye

Peoples okay it’s just to them and then the other is all it’s it’s time so it’s it’s to a people distinct People Israel and for a distinct time the Old Testament Psalm 117 addresses both as I just said all ye nations and then addresses the time for his merciful

Kindness is great toward us and the truth of the Lord endures forever deals with two two Kingdom theology in two verses there you go thank you Joel Travis anything else you want to add as you were talking I just thought of the the passage uh I’m reading

Through First Kings right now uh in I think it starts in 12 it goes into 13 where you have the story of um jeroboam going and sacrificing on the the altar with the calves and he sets up the alternative form of worship um and somebody from Dr Godfrey’s perspective

Would probably say yeah this is an example of um you know the church and state kind of um dichotomy being intermingled and I would say yeah that’s correct I mean you have you have the king sacrificing on an altar which he’s not supposed to do if he was down at the

Temple uh the Levites wouldn’t have let him do that right uh so there was a an intermingling of church and state there in that passage and then you have the prophet who comes and denounces him a miracle occurs where King jeroboam’s hand when he stretches it out to tell that the

Prophet needs to be seized uh his hand kind of shrivels up and gets hard and and then the prophet prays for him and he says you know and jeroboam says please pray for me that God would you know heal my hand and and God does that so this prophet exper es this great

Miracle right and it’s explicit in the passage that the prophet is told by God that he’s not supposed to eat or drink in the northern tribes up there he’s supposed to get back down to Judah he’s not supposed to have any Fellowship any table fellowship with them up there

Right and then another Prophet from up there comes and says uh hey I got a word from the Lord too and you’re supposed to come eat at my house and at first when we read this passage it’s it’s kind of like hits you like why why was God so judgmental here

God ends up sending a lion to kill this Prophet because he disobeyed God’s word so here we have a a great example of how important it is to follow God’s law and to follow his word the prophets in in the books of Kings had to follow God’s word when he revealed something to

Them they could not stray from it to the right or to the left and the idea there being that you know for those people who are in ministry as pastors and everything we can’t just kind of come up with our own ways of doing things we just can’t think that

Well we just have to use common sense and and that was something that Dr Godfrey brought up um towards the end of his talk and let’s just he says let’s just be reasonable how can we have a Christian voice and a reasonable voice that was that was kind of the conclusion of it

Well I mean I thought you know in that prophet in uh in First Kings he probably thought it was pretty reasonable to just yeah why not I’ll just I’ll just go you know have fellowship with this Prophet up here in the northern tribes and God

Ends up nope he sends a lion kills him um but it’s interesting uh James Jordan talks about this in that passage as well uh that the lion does not devour the prophet’s body the prophet is able to uh be buried and so the idea there is that

The word that the prophet spoke is going to stand he’s not going to be cursed God did not curse him the lion didn’t Devour the body so that it couldn’t be buried properly the word is going to stand just like that Psalm said and we need to come

Back to this idea especially the leaders in the church that we cannot a from God’s word word and and that would be my final thought yeah well s that’s a great passage Tyrus uh at our church preached on that not too long ago and yeah uh yeah very challenging passage on our

Will we be uh what’s the word here very meticulous in our obedience to what God has God has said all right well I hope you have found this helpful we are we are way over time but this has been very important and the invitation remains open for Dr Godfrey um with leaner

Ministries or Pastor Godfrey located right here in Lancaster County to come in studio or anybody else in Lancaster County that wants to uh debate what we’ve said and we would plead plead with uh reformed churches here to join us as we seek to oppose uh the advance of

Paganism in Lancaster County if you have any requests any questions send an email to infothe lanaster patriot.com for more information about us go to the Lancaster patriot.com and you can also support our show by going to patreon.com theel laner Patriot thank you so much for listening until next time remember that Christ not

Man is King so Long

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